How I like to think of Religions

[Third Eye Open]

I think it is a lot easier to converse with religious people if you think of their religion as you would look at their favorite band or musician.

You don’t do research on who is the best guitarist, who can play the cleanest notes and which singer has the best range before you decide what music you like, you either listen to it because your friends and family do, or because you just randomly heard it somewhere and it made you feel something, or just grabbed you for some reason.

You also aren’t going to listen to someone who says your favorite band sucks, even if they can show you specific examples of wrong notes being hit, or lack of talent, or can prove by many examples that he/she is a real prick. No matter how many examples, it’s not likely that you are going to say ‘hmm, you are right, this does suck, I’m never listening to it again.’

Another similarity is that you can’t help but try to share your favorite music with other people, even if you’ve been told before that they don’t like that style of music. You think that this band/musician must be the exception to the rule, if they will just LISTEN they will like it!

I guess my point is that people who are very passionate about their religion may not even know exactly why they are. Try to explain in words why you like whatever your favorite song is at the moment. Even if you can do a decent job (i can’t), those words aren’t going to convince anyone to like it. And neither is explaining why you dislike a song going to change the opinion of anyone who is a fan.

You don’t actively try to change your friends musical tastes, and even if you wanted to you wouldn't be able to do it by telling them it sucks and pointing out flaws all the time. Think about how you feel when someone makes fun of a band or musician you like. You think ‘they just don’t understand’ or ‘you have to be smart/cultured/a rebel/ to like this kind of music’, it makes you feel even more special the more people dislike it. You may even turn it up loud it public places, relishing the annoyance of strangers, but always with the hope that someone will say ‘wow that’s cool, what is it?’.

Yet I’m sure there are plenty of bands/musicians you used to feel that way about, but now you don’t care for anymore. What happened? You found something new. Maybe someone even showed it to you. But they sure as hell didn’t show it to you in the context of ‘This is better than that **** band you like’ but instead, ‘Hey, I thought you might like this, what do you think?’ Or even just put it on the stereo without saying anything. Maybe you liked it so much that you don’t even listen to that other music anymore (has happened to me several times)

TL;DR: Regarding someones religion the same way as you would their favorite musician makes conversations easier for me.

[Lowpro]

And you must be a Tool fan I think?

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

Of course, some people's favourite song is this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXkBzTLOyjc).

[Third Eye Open]

And you must be a Tool fan I think?

Yep :P

And the closest thing I've ever had to what I understand to be a 'religious experience' is when listening to music. I also think that the music is a big part of religion, people go to the services and a large amount of the time is spent singing. It is why I think that a good way for non religious people to understand the 'religious feeling' is through music.

[Cavemonster]

This is absolutely a wonderful way to get along socially with folks of various beliefs.

However, there isn't a band in history that I'm aware of that has become a major influence in national policy, much to the detriment of my friends and loved ones. There isn't a band in history that every US president has had to publicly claim to love to have any shot at the office.

As far as I know, no father has ever said to his gay son. "Get out of my house! What you do is sick and unnatural because The Beatles said so!"

In the few rare cases where people take their favorite bands so seriously that it effects their life decisions in major ways, we consider that a problem and it's no longer on the begnign scale of "I just like that song".

Good songs for the most part, don't push false claims about the world, and when they do, and people take them seriously, those claims are as open for criticism as any other. The reason musical taste is beyond argument is not simply because it's subjective, but because your musical taste doesn't affect me the way that your religion often will. (That is until you play your music full blast at 3 in the morning, at which point you'll hear my detailed opinion)

I understand the analogy in terms of how people come to their beliefs and why they hold them, but it doesn't extend to the real world repercussions of holding those beliefs and how I may prefer to address them.

[Dinwar]

However, there isn't a band in history that I'm aware of that has become a major influence in legal national policy, much to the detriment of my friends and loved ones.

I take it we are, for the moment, leaving aside Deathklock?

[Lowpro]

My Mogwai's greater than your Tool (Actually I love tool. My warlock is named Thirdeyeopen >.>)

Problem is...some music really really sucks and no matter what when they play it on the radio I can't stand listening to it...so I gotta turn it off or get out of the car. Music came well before religion, and it's interesting it you study Neurobiology to see what your brain does when it listens to music. You could say it has MORE effect than any religious experience on your brain =P

[Mirrorglass]

This is absolutely a wonderful way to get along socially with folks of various beliefs.

However, there isn't a band in history that I'm aware of that has become a major influence in national policy, much to the detriment of my friends and loved ones.

Says you, gramps! Rock'n'Roll is gonna change the world!

[Cavemonster]

Says you, gramps! Rock'n'Roll is gonna change the world!

That's just where you're wrong Bobby. Recent studies show that rock and roll is in fact dying.

fnyCJDYONSU

[Piscivore]

I think it is a lot easier to converse with religious people if you think of their religion as you would look at their favorite band or musician.

You don’t do research on who is the best guitarist, who can play the cleanest notes and which singer has the best range before you decide what music you like, you either listen to it because your friends and family do, or because you just randomly heard it somewhere and it made you feel something, or just grabbed you for some reason.

You also aren’t going to listen to someone who says your favorite band sucks, even if they can show you specific examples of wrong notes being hit, or lack of talent, or can prove by many examples that he/she is a real prick. No matter how many examples, it’s not likely that you are going to say ‘hmm, you are right, this does suck, I’m never listening to it again.’

Another similarity is that you can’t help but try to share your favorite music with other people, even if you’ve been told before that they don’t like that style of music. You think that this band/musician must be the exception to the rule, if they will just LISTEN they will like it!

I guess my point is that people who are very passionate about their religion may not even know exactly why they are. Try to explain in words why you like whatever your favorite song is at the moment. Even if you can do a decent job (i can’t), those words aren’t going to convince anyone to like it. And neither is explaining why you dislike a song going to change the opinion of anyone who is a fan.
What you're essentially saying is that religious beliefs are held for emotional reasons, not logical ones. I agree.

You don’t actively try to change your friends musical tastes, and even if you wanted to you wouldn't be able to do it by telling them it sucks and pointing out flaws all the time. Think about how you feel when someone makes fun of a band or musician you like. You think ‘they just don’t understand’ or ‘you have to be smart/cultured/a rebel/ to like this kind of music’, it makes you feel even more special the more people dislike it. You may even turn it up loud it public places, relishing the annoyance of strangers, but always with the hope that someone will say ‘wow that’s cool, what is it?’.

Yet I’m sure there are plenty of bands/musicians you used to feel that way about, but now you don’t care for anymore. What happened? You found something new. Maybe someone even showed it to you. But they sure as hell didn’t show it to you in the context of ‘This is better than that **** band you like’ but instead, ‘Hey, I thought you might like this, what do you think?’ Or even just put it on the stereo without saying anything. Maybe you liked it so much that you don’t even listen to that other music anymore (has happened to me several times)

I've observed each of those things you say "don't" happen.

[Dinwar]

Think about how you feel when someone makes fun of a band or musician you like. You think ‘they just don’t understand’ or ‘you have to be smart/cultured/a rebel/ to like this kind of music’, it makes you feel even more special the more people dislike it. You may even turn it up loud it public places, relishing the annoyance of strangers, but always with the hope that someone will say ‘wow that’s cool, what is it?’.

Not really. I prefer to listen to music in private, typically with headphones on. It's something *I* enjoy--and I honestly couldn't care less about what other people think of it. On a few occasions I've gotten into physical altercations because of my taste in music (granted, in a college dorm, as a male, responding with "Enya" when someone asked "What are you listening to?" wasn't the brightest idea I've had), but it was never to force someone to listen to my music, but rather to defend my right to do so.

In short, you seem to be saying that the main point of enjoying a particular type of music is how other people react to it. I'm saying that the main point is an internal one--how *I* react to it.

But they sure as hell didn’t show it to you in the context of ‘This is better than that **** band you like’ but instead, ‘Hey, I thought you might like this, what do you think?’ The reason I got into Rush, Hammerfall, Blind Guardian, and a number of other bands is because friends said "Your'e listining to that (insert profanity)? Let me show you what REAL music is!"

You don’t actively try to change your friends musical tastes, and even if you wanted to you wouldn't be able to do it by telling them it sucks and pointing out flaws all the time. I don't, no. However, the guy who tried to choak me into not enjoying Enya did that, and (by definition) worse.

Try to explain in words why you like whatever your favorite song is at the moment. Even if you can do a decent job (i can’t), those words aren’t going to convince anyone to like it. To an extent, I'll agree with this. However, the reasons I like my favorite music are intensely personal and therefore individual--if you haven't gone through what I have, and had the music do what it did to me, you won't have the same emotional response to it, even if we agree on technical merit.

You seem to be making a very large number of assumptions about people and music, none of which are universal and very few of which you have supported in the least.

[John Jones]

I take it we are, for the moment, leaving aside Deathklock?

:D

[John Jones]

That's just where you're wrong Bobby. Recent studies show that rock and roll is in fact dying.

fnyCJDYONSU


You beat me to it! :)

[I Ratant]

This is absolutely a wonderful way to get along socially with folks of various beliefs.

However, there isn't a band in history that I'm aware of that has become a major influence in national policy, much to the detriment of my friends and loved ones. There isn't a band in history that every US president has had to publicly claim to love to have any shot at the office.

As far as I know, no father has ever said to his gay son. "Get out of my house! What you do is sick and unnatural because The Beatles said so!"

...
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"TWISTED SISTER?!!!!???!"
" I carried an M-16 and all you do is play that electric twanger!"
One of the seminal moments in the history of the rock video!
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o183lnrwFUI
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:D

[Third Eye Open]

In short, you seem to be saying that the main point of enjoying a particular type of music is how other people react to it. I'm saying that the main point is an internal one--how *I* react to it.


I agree that the internal portion is much more important for me, and probably most people.

I was using it as an example to parallel the people who like to preach on street corners, etc.

[Dinwar]

Still doesn't work. People don't scream at and threaten strangers (remember, even if WE don't consider Hell real, THEY do and intend it to be, philosophically, identical to the argument "Do what I want or my big brother will beat you up") because they like different music. When was the last time you saw someone shouting that you'll burn for eternity for not enjoying Black Sabbath?

People generally don't assume strangers enjoy the same music as them, the way they assume everyone's the same religion ("We're all good Christians here...", "Let's bow our heads and pray...", "We know our Heavenly Father watches over us..." are all phrases I've heard people casually say, while "We're all Godsmack fans here..." has never come up, except as a conclusion that we all were, in fact, Godsmack fans). People generally don't try even discuss music outside of discussions of music/art. Religious people, on the other hand, insert casual mentions of their gods in unrelated conversations.

I get what you're saying, I do, but your metaphore falls short in many, many cases.

[Cavemonster]

I prefer to think of religion like genitalia.
I don't have much of a problem with yours until you wave it around in my face, try to force it on me, or ram it down children's throats.

[Gallstones]

I think when it comes to dealing with individuals, person to person, as opposed to governments and agencies; and maintaining one's mental and emotional composure, Third Eye Open's analogy is excellent.

[Beerina]

I think it is a lot easier to converse with religious people if you think of their religion as you would look at their favorite band or musician.



"I'm not into Taylor Swift all that much, but I would totally hit that."



This is the only religious parallel I could think up (http://www.pastormelissascott.com/index.shtml).

[TraneWreck]

I do the same thing, but for some reason I always assume that their favorite musician is Kenny G. Then I get furious and start screaming at them.

[Wowbagger]

That reminds me, I wanted to announce this somewhere:

"Weird Al" Yankovic, George Hrab, and They Might Be Giants are our holy saviors!

Thank you.

[Dinwar]

"There is only one God, and Ozzy is his Prophet."

You know, I've always wondered what a fatwa was like...This may earn me one...

[yomero]

Of course, some people's favourite song is this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXkBzTLOyjc).


But true music lovers enjoy this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MM6qntPpyZ0).

[Kopji]

The idea that religion might have aesthetics of value was offered by George Santayana. I don't see this metaphor as being too far off. We don't have music groups that threaten us to buy their goods, but we do have Walmart to dictate what proper music we have available to buy.

[Darth Rotor]

The Grateful Dead had disciples. It's an interesting approach you take.

[Third Eye Open]

Welp, i guess this is a silly thread now. I'll join in:

We are the true believers
It's our turn to show the world
In the fires of heavy metal we were burned
It's more than our religion, it's the only way to live
But the enemies of metal, we can't forgive

We believe in the power and the might
And the gods who made metal are with us tonight

The gods made heavy metal and they saw that it was good
They said to play it louder than hell and we promised that we would
When losers say its over with you know that it's a lie
Cause the gods made heavy metal and it's never gunna die! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3XyBMYbLiCU&feature=related)

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

Music came well before religion[...]

What makes you say that? We know of no animals that make or enjoy music other than ourselves. On the other hand, animals have been shown to display superstitious behaviour. I'd say that religion probably came first, although I'd also say that it's impossible to actually determine.

"I'm not into Taylor Swift all that much, but I would totally hit that."

I like Taylor Swift despite myself. Perhaps that's like being a Catholic who hates the Church.

This is the only religious parallel I could think up (http://www.pastormelissascott.com/index.shtml).

So that's what Sheryl Cole's up to these days.

[Sledge]

I like to think of religion...

Wait. No I don't.

[Wowbagger]

Welp, i guess this is a silly thread now. I'll join in:For a serious response, I will say this:

I think your points are good ones, for the limited scope of diplomatic relations among the various religious and non-religious communities.

The analogy of religion being like a favorite artist is not a perfect one, (and hardly any analogies ever are), but when weilded properly, can be used as a nice framework by which to keep the peace amongst our fellow humans.

I used to say that comparing and debating religions is a lot like comparing favorite flavors of ice cream, which is a somewhat similar idea.

[I Ratant]

"There is only one God, and Ozzy is his Prophet."

You know, I've always wondered what a fatwa was like...This may earn me one...
.
Ozzy never impressed me as a performer. The reality show was good, showing him and his family as real people, warts and all.

[I Ratant]

But true music lovers enjoy this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MM6qntPpyZ0).
.
For really good music, which many religious works are, this one is one of the best, performer quite innovatively!
http://www.youtube.com/user/AlphabetPhotography