Can US citizens give away their passports?

[The Fool]

OK....a US citizen likes what some foreign intelligence agency does with fraudulant passports....so he gives them his passport to use.

Is the US government ok with this?

just curious.....

[dtugg]

They are property of the US government so I highly doubt it.

[The Fool]

They are property of the US government so I highly doubt it.
I highly doubt it too. But in another thread Mycroft said he would be happy to give his Passport to "the cause" and asked me to show him what, if anything, the likely consequences would be if your act was discovered...I can't find a specific law in the US that would prevent it but I just assumed I was a very bad searcher or its one of those things like "there is no specific law that says you can't eat the president" sort of things....

[theprestige]

Well, depending on the "cause" in question, I imagine indictments could potentially include anything from giving aid or comfort to the nation's enemies to conspiracy to commit fraud.

I don't speak for Mycroft, of course, but I imagine if there's a cause you think is worth fighting for, it's probably a cause you think is worth exploiting your passport for.

[Thunder]

OK....a US citizen likes what some foreign intelligence agency does with fraudulant passports....so he gives them his passport to use.

Is the US government ok with this?

just curious.....

Page 6 of my passport says the following:

1. It is unlawful for any person other than the named bearer to use this passport. Use of this passport in contravention of the passport regulations or of the conditions or restrictions set out in this passport, or for travel to countries where a U.S. passport is not valid is a felony.

2. U.S. Government Property: This passport is the property of the United States Government.




So yeah, sure, give your passport to the Israelis or the Russians or the French, and enjoy your time in Federal prison. Anyone who gives up their passport to a foreign country to be used in an intelligence or assassination operation, is a traitor.

[Puppycow]

Is the US government ok with this?

Absolutely not. As Thunder noted, your passport isn't even your property. It belongs to the government.

(I'd bet the Aussie government has the same policy, btw. I'd be surprised if any government were OK with that.)

[MG1962]

Page 6 of my passport says the following:

1. It is unlawful for any person other than the named bearer to use this passport. Use of this passport in contravention of the passport regulations or of the conditions or restrictions set out in this passport, or for travel to countries where a U.S. passport is not valid is a felony.

2. U.S. Government Property: This passport is the property of the United States Government.




so yeah, sure, give your passport to the Israelis or the Russians or the French, and enjoy your time in Federal prison.

Just to expand on your post a little. This site http://travel.state.gov/travel/tips/emergencies/emergencies_1197.html

mentions some specifics about lost passports

U.S. Department of State form DS-64 (http://forums.randi.org/pdf/DS-0064.pdf) may be used for this purpose, or you may simply execute a sworn statement before the consular officer describing what happened. A police report is not mandatory but may be required when the embassy/consulate believes a problem may exist such as possible fraud

[MG1962]

Absolutely not. As Thunder noted, your passport isn't even your property. It belongs to the government.

(I'd bet the Aussie government has the same policy, btw. I'd be surprised if any government were OK with that.)

Yeppers. My passport says "This passport remains the property of the Australian Government" It is the very last thing in it

[Thunder]

I'm sure my friend at the State Dept. would just love to hear about an American citizen who is willing to hand over his passport to a foreign government for intelligence operations.

:)

[The Fool]

anyone seen Mycroft?

[Ray Brady]

I'm curious as to why the government doesn't want old passports back when they expire. I've still got every passport that's ever been issued to me.

[DallasDad]

Expired passports are stamped or punched so as to be useless except as souvenirs. In the old days, every country would stamp your passport for you (even if they didn't normally, they would upon request), so the passport became a record of your travels.

[The Fool]

I'm curious as to why the government doesn't want old passports back when they expire. I've still got every passport that's ever been issued to me.
probably because expired passports can't be used? I don't keep old passports because the pictures remind me of how stupid my hair looked most of my life.

[Beerina]

Expired passports are stamped or punched so as to be useless except as souvenirs. In the old days, every country would stamp your passport for you (even if they didn't normally, they would upon request), so the passport became a record of your travels.

I got my passport renewed, and the old one came back with a nice hole drilled through it, including the picture, IIRC.

[Damien Evans]

probably because expired passports can't be used? I don't keep old passports because the pictures remind me of how stupid my hair looked most of my life.

How can you tell under that helmet?

[Grizzly Adams]

Old passports are returned unless there's a reason not to, because many visas are issued and placed in passports that are valid beyond the validity of that book. A visa is still valid even if the book it's in has expired.

[Mycroft]

I highly doubt it too. But in another thread Mycroft said he would be happy to give his Passport to "the cause" and asked me to show him what, if anything, the likely consequences would be if your act was discovered...I can't find a specific law in the US that would prevent it but I just assumed I was a very bad searcher or its one of those things like "there is no specific law that says you can't eat the president" sort of things....

So previously when I said you have no idea, I was dead on correct.

anyone seen Mycroft?

:oldroll:

[PhantomWolf]

Anyone who gives up their passport to a foreign country to be used in an intelligence or assassination operation, is a traitor.

No they aren't. US Law defines a Treason very narrowly, and giving your passport to a foreign country to be used in an intelligence or assassination operation is not covered unless they are an US enemy who uses it against the US.

Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.

[The Fool]

So previously when I said you have no idea, I was dead on correct.



:oldroll:
Now that it has been displayed to you are you now aware of the seriousness of giving your Passport to a foreign Intelligence service or are we still in the denial phase?

[Thunder]

No they aren't.

I meant in the general sense. Not the legal sense.

traitor: one who betrays another's trust or is false to an obligation or duty.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/traitor

[FireGarden]

anyone seen Mycroft?

No. But records indicate he's in Dubai. And Qatar. And Australia, Canada, New Zealand....

[theprestige]

Now that it has been displayed to you are you now aware of the seriousness of giving your Passport to a foreign Intelligence service or are we still in the denial phase?

What seriousness would that be? All I see in this thread is some idle, amateur speculation--no offense, everybody.

I can imagine that it's serious, but that's all I'm doing--imagining. Even the fact that the passport is government property doesn't signify: Money is government property, too, and technically defacing money is a crime. I bet you have no clue how serious that is, either.

[Thunder]

What seriousness would that be? All I see in this thread is some idle, amateur speculation--no offense, everybody.

I can imagine that it's serious, but that's all I'm doing--imagining. Even the fact that the passport is government property doesn't signify: Money is government property, too, and technically defacing money is a crime. I bet you have no clue how serious that is, either.

I shall text my friend in the State Dept. now and ask him what charges would an American face if they purposefully gave their American passport to the Israelis, knowing and hoping it would be used in an intelligence operation.

Lets see what he says.

[Travis]

What is the background of this? What "cause" is being helped here? What nation is the passport being given to?

[drkitten]

What seriousness would that be? All I see in this thread is some idle, amateur speculation--no offense, everybody.

I can imagine that it's serious, but that's all I'm doing--imagining.

U.S.C. Title 18, Part I, chapter 75, section 1544 holds that:


Whoever willfully and knowingly furnishes, disposes of, or delivers
a passport to any person, for use by another than the person for whose
use it was originally issued and designed--
Shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 25 years
(if the offense was committed to facilitate an act of international
terrorism (as defined in section 2331 of this title)), 20 years (if the
offense was committed to facilitate a drug trafficking crime (as defined
in section 929(a) of this title)), 10 years (in the case of the first or
second such offense, if the offense was not committed to facilitate such
an act of international terrorism or a drug trafficking crime), or 15
years (in the case of any other offense), or both.


By contrast, constructing a border tunnel will draw a max of 20 years; robbing a post office gets at most five years; extortion draws a max of a year.

I submit this is serious.

[drkitten]

What is the background of this? What "cause" is being helped here? What nation is the passport being given to?

The background is that Israel has been accused of using false passports (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article7032900.ece), most recently and significantly on an alleged assassination mission to Dubai, where they used British passports. The actual allegations involve identity theft, but of course it would be fairly easy for someone to cooperate with identity thieves if they supported the ostensible cause.

The cause (and nation) aren't really relevant here; in fact, given the well-documented history of false-flag operations in intelligence work, anyone who believes he's actually spying for country A is as likely to be a dupe working for country B instead.

The question was simply how much trouble a US citizen could get into by doing this.

[I Ratant]

Was it here some poor soul was upset at the RFID chip in his new passport that he microwaved it and burned out the chip?
And we wished him luck using that passport.
Homeland Security might take him aside for an extended talking-to!
.
Mine is 50 years old.
And I haven't aged a bit!
( I wish!)

[WildCat]

Was it here some poor soul was upset at the RFID chip in his new passport that he microwaved it and burned out the chip?
And we wished him luck using that passport.
Homeland Security might take him aside for an extended talking-to!
.
Mine is 50 years old.
And I haven't aged a bit!
( I wish!)
You have a 50 year old RFID chip?

[godless dave]

I'm the Mossad has much more reliable methods of getting passports for their agents. In fact, I'm pretty sure if you offered them yours, they would turn it down and look at you funny.

[fuelair]

I highly doubt it too. But in another thread Mycroft said he would be happy to give his Passport to "the cause" and asked me to show him what, if anything, the likely consequences would be if your act was discovered...I can't find a specific law in the US that would prevent it but I just assumed I was a very bad searcher or its one of those things like "there is no specific law that says you can't eat the president" sort of things....But didn't Monica Lewinski do exactly that to Clinton when he was Pres?:):)

[Jeff Corey]

But didn't Monica Lewinski do exactly that to Clinton when he was Pres?:):)

There was no law against that, and apparently she didn't swallow.

[I Ratant]

God-damned grammar nazis!
Leave her in the kitchen making cookies!

[PhantomWolf]

I meant in the general sense. Not the legal sense.

traitor: one who betrays another's trust or is false to an obligation or duty.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/traitor

Ahhh, you mean like the general use of fascism.

fascism: a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control .

Would that be right?

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fascism

[I Ratant]

You have a 50 year old RFID chip?
.
It is a bulky thing.
The 67-1/2 volt B battery is pretty massive.
And the tube warms it up uncomfortably.

[Mycroft]

Now that it has been displayed to you are you now aware of the seriousness of giving your Passport to a foreign Intelligence service or are we still in the denial phase?

As usual, you pretend to have made some point when you haven't. As the prestige pointed out, nothing's been said other than idle speculation.

I have no doubt letting someone else use your passport violates some regulation somewhere, but the consequences are not likely to be very severe. After all, we can look at the British, Irish, French and German people who’s passports were actually used for the assassination of Al-Mabhouh and see with absolute certainty that nothing serious happened with them. A few hours being questioned, a short time of public notoriety, and then it’s all done. A small price to pay to take someone like Mahmoud Al-Mabhouh out of this world.

[Travis]

The background is that Israel has been accused of using false passports (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article7032900.ece), most recently and significantly on an alleged assassination mission to Dubai, where they used British passports. The actual allegations involve identity theft, but of course it would be fairly easy for someone to cooperate with identity thieves if they supported the ostensible cause.

The cause (and nation) aren't really relevant here; in fact, given the well-documented history of false-flag operations in intelligence work, anyone who believes he's actually spying for country A is as likely to be a dupe working for country B instead.

The question was simply how much trouble a US citizen could get into by doing this.

Okay, thank you.

[MG1962]

.
It is a bulky thing.
The 67-1/2 volt B battery is pretty massive.
And the tube warms it up uncomfortably.

Liar! everyone knows they came with paired batteries - either 68 or 66 :cool:

[KoihimeNakamura]

@Mycroft: ... ignoring what DrKitten posted

[Puppycow]

I'm curious as to why the government doesn't want old passports back when they expire. I've still got every passport that's ever been issued to me.

Expired passports are stamped or punched so as to be useless except as souvenirs. In the old days, every country would stamp your passport for you (even if they didn't normally, they would upon request), so the passport became a record of your travels.

Sometimes you may still need them if they contain visa stamps or the like.

[FireGarden]

@Mycroft: ... ignoring what DrKitten posted

Or...
The "there's no serious conseqences because I'll get away with it" gambit.

[Mycroft]

@Mycroft: ... ignoring what DrKitten posted

Didn't ignore it, but didn't see it the first time around.

Or...
The "there's no serious conseqences because I'll get away with it" gambit.

And...?

Intent is very hard to prove, and helping an ally snuff a known baddie wouldn't exactly be a popular thing for a government to punish harshly.

[I Ratant]

Sometimes you may still need them if they contain visa stamps or the like.
.
Mine, used only for one trip in 1960, from VA to Newfoundland to Scotland to Germany, Austria and then Hungary and return has only a Hungarian visa stamp in it.
It's a keeper just for that, and my extreme foreign travel phobia that has developed over the years will keep me here in La-La Land anyway.
Lots of places to go in LA County all by itself. :)

[Thunder]

Intent is very hard to prove, and helping an ally snuff a known baddie wouldn't exactly be a popular thing for a government to punish harshly.

are you actually suggesting you might give away your American passport to the Israelis to be used in an intelligence operation?

dude...you'd be looking at time in Federal prison.

..and I would have no problem reporting any such activity to the State Department. My friend is a respected supervisor over there, along with being former CIA and DOD.

[Thunder]

Ahhh, you mean like the general use of fascism.

fascism: a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control .

Would that be right?

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fascism

troll away.

[Ranb]

Expired passports are stamped or punched so as to be useless except as souvenirs.

Expired passports are still useful. Even though they are not valid for travel outside of the issuing country, the American passports are still a valid piece of identification. My old passport was punched twice along the side, not over any information or the photo. I used an old blue passport to get a new red government passport. Easier than requesting a new copy of my birth certificate.

As far as I know, even an old driver's license is still valid ID, just don't try to drive on the public roads with it. :)

Ranb

[WildCat]

As far as I know, even an old driver's license is still valid ID
No, it's not.

I once had to run to a DMV and renew my d/l in the middle of a real estate closing, mine had expired a few days before and they wouldn't let me sign the contract without a valid ID.

[Ranb]

Opps, I goofed. I thought I read a while back that they were still good enough for ID purposes, but I can't find anyone that says they are now.

Ranb

[LashL]

Opps, I goofed. I thought I read a while back that they were still good enough for ID purposes, but I can't find anyone that says they are now.

Ranb



No biggie, you were mistaken.


(And note that nobody accused you of lying just because you were mistaken. Just saying.)

[linusrichard]

Money is government property, too

I'm skeptical - do you have a source for this?

[Aepervius]

Expired passports are stamped or punched so as to be useless except as souvenirs. In the old days, every country would stamp your passport for you (even if they didn't normally, they would upon request), so the passport became a record of your travels.

Maybe only if you ask for a renewal. When I asked for a pass they did not ask me for the old one. They directly gave me a new one.

Might have been ane rror though.

[Beady]

I'm skeptical - do you have a source for this?

US Constitution, Section 8: "To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;"

[gumboot]

US Constitution, Section 8: "To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;"

That doesn't mean it's their property. That just means it's their responsibility to make it and set its value.

[The Fool]

That doesn't mean it's their property. That just means it's their responsibility to make it and set its value.
In australia its apparently illegal to deface money, even your own. This came up when one of our prime ministers autographed a note and someone tried to make a story out of it. Apparently it goes back to some old law that you can't graffiti something with a picture of the monarch on it.

[I Ratant]

Late '60s, when Rolls Royce's motor was giving problems, and Lockheed needed some help from the government, we were given stamps that said "This money earned at Lockheed", to quiet the bitching about the bailout.
And that was paid back in a timely manner.

[gumboot]

In australia its apparently illegal to deface money, even your own. This came up when one of our prime ministers autographed a note and someone tried to make a story out of it. Apparently it goes back to some old law that you can't graffiti something with a picture of the monarch on it.


It's illegal to deface currency here too. This is because currency is legal tender, and defacing it could interfere with it function as legal tender. I believe the prohibition dates back to when the main currency was coins made of valuable material and "defacing" currency meant shaving bits of it off.

None of this means the currency belongs to the government of course, which you seem to agree with.

Interestingly, our notes are made of plastic, and if you put them in an oven they'll shrink, but they remain legal tender when you do this. Kind of neat.

[Mycroft]

In australia its apparently illegal to deface money, even your own. This came up when one of our prime ministers autographed a note and someone tried to make a story out of it. Apparently it goes back to some old law that you can't graffiti something with a picture of the monarch on it.

Does that prime minister now realize the seriousness of his actions?

[Thunder]

Mycroft- I shall be hanging out with my two friends from the State Department tonight. I shall ask them about what charges one would face if they give their American passport to the Israelis to be used in intelligence operations and/or assassinations.

:)

[The Fool]

Does that prime minister now realize the seriousness of his actions?
yes...unlike you.

do you think that writing your name on a paper banknote is comparable to giving your passport to a foreign intelligence agency?

[Mycroft]

Oh there is just no end to the serious matters. All kinds of things are very serious indeed.

[Thunder]

so, I asked my friend about going to the embassy and giving the Israelis your passport.

he said:

#1. they would not accept it. :)

#2. you'd probably go to jail, if they did accept it and the US gov. found out.

[The Fool]

Oh there is just no end to the serious matters. All kinds of things are very serious indeed.
not a problem...The us needs more citizens that place the support of foreign intelligence agencies above their own laws.


you are not covering yourself in glory in this thread Mycroft, it maybe time to start looking towards the emergency exit doors.

[Mycroft]

not a problem...The us needs more citizens that place the support of foreign intelligence agencies above their own laws.

Ah, the old "divided loyalty" smear. Nice.


you are not covering yourself in glory in this thread Mycroft, it maybe time to start looking towards the emergency exit doors.

Nobody has taken this thread seriously except for you and Parky, but I think your attempts to play high school DARE officer issuing a stern warning about "serious consequences" as though I were a teenager are hilarious.

Keep it up. It's still amusing.

[Thunder]

Ah, the old "divided loyalty" smear. Nice.

what would YOU call someone being willing to hand over their passport, which is govt. property, to another govt. to be used for intelligence operations, including assassinations?

sure looks like questionable loyalty to me. it suggests that this person respects the interests, laws, & goals of one nation over his own nation.

[The Fool]

Ah, the old "divided loyalty" smear. Nice.




Thats right son....divided loyalties. You proudly proclaim it.

[Mycroft]

Thats right son....divided loyalties. You proudly proclaim it.

So what's divided about helping an ally snuff a baddie?

[Finn McR]

I'm sure that states want to have some measure of control over their populations and visitors, but a lot of this smacks me of a poor, late-'40s parody of the Nazi-controlled German government... Vere are your papers??? Why don't we just implant a chip in everyone when they are born? That would make tracking much easier.

As to helping enemies, an engineer on the B2 Stealth Bomber program just got a substantive slap on the wrist for selling USA technical secrets to other governments. If we don't invoke the death penalty in that kind of case, what do we care about selling passports?

[The Fool]

So what's divided about helping an ally snuff a baddie?
sigh...you have no Idea or control over what they would do with it.....you just hand it over to support "the cause" contrary to your nations laws....so the divided loyalties is there for all to see. You proclaim its virtues so I don't see what the point of debating is. You have demonstrated divided loyalties and also sung its praises.

[gumboot]

As to helping enemies, an engineer on the B2 Stealth Bomber program just got a substantive slap on the wrist for selling USA technical secrets to other governments. If we don't invoke the death penalty in that kind of case, what do we care about selling passports?

He hasn't been sentenced yet (he's going to be sentenced today), but he's facing life in prison, which is hardly a "slap on the wrist". In most civilised countries that's the most severe sentence possible.

[Thunder]

So what's divided about helping an ally snuff a baddie?

illegally giving US gov. property to another country to be used in an illegal operation, is not an act of loyalty to the United States.

nations can choose not to recognize American passports, if such a thing happens too often.

what if nations start doubting the authenticity of all American passports held by folks with "Jewish" sounding names?

"sorry man, but too many Jews have been giving their passorts to the Israelis. we can't authorize you to enter our nation with that passport".

[Mycroft]

illegally giving US gov. property to another country to be used in an illegal operation, is not an act of loyalty to the United States.

But neither is it necessarily disloyal.


nations can choose not to recognize American passports, if such a thing happens too often.

Oh, that's likely. :oldroll:

what if nations start doubting the authenticity of all American passports held by folks with "Jewish" sounding names?

You think "Mycroft" sounds Jewish? I don't.

"sorry man, but too many Jews have been giving their passorts to the Israelis. we can't authorize you to enter our nation with that passport".

Have there been any? What about Presbyterians?

[Thunder]

But neither is it necessarily disloyal.


Oh, I think giving up your passport to a foreign country to engage in intelligence operations is a true act of disloyalty. Such an act puts American interests and American lives at risk.


You think "Mycroft" sounds Jewish? I don't.


your last name is Mycroft? :D

[FireGarden]

Nobody has taken this thread seriously...

More to the point, I doubt you've taken your own comment seriously. ie: I doubt you have handed over your passport to the Israelis. I suspect they would smile at you politely and ask if you need any help getting home.

[drkitten]

So what's divided about helping an ally snuff a baddie?

The fact that the government doesn't want to help an ally snuff a baddie. If the US government wanted to help Israel snuff a baddie, it would be able to provide passports by the truckload. (And it has done very similar things historically.) It doesn't need your help to provide passports.

[Mycroft]

More to the point, I doubt you've taken your own comment seriously. ie: I doubt you have handed over your passport to the Israelis. I suspect they would smile at you politely and ask if you need any help getting home.

True and true.


The fact that the government doesn't want to help an ally snuff a baddie. If the US government wanted to help Israel snuff a baddie, it would be able to provide passports by the truckload. (And it has done very similar things historically.) It doesn't need your help to provide passports.

Not wanting to help something get done is not the same as not wanting it done at all, or even wanting to prevent it from being done. I don't want to help you shovel snow off your driveway, but that doesn't mean I mind if my kid wants to help you, even if I'm better equipped to do it.