Deep cuts in Texas education [Archive]

Vortigern99

24th January 2011, 11:58 AM

Just when I'm beginning to gets substitute teaching jobs in Austin, and while I study for content exams which will help to certify me for permanent employment in the Texas school system, the proverbial **** hits the fan:

In less than a week, the Austin school district's budget nightmare has jumped from a $54 million shortfall to $113 million.

This comes after state lawmakers have proposed cutting $5 billion from public education. The school board on Monday night will look at cutting hundreds of jobs.

[Emphasis mine.]

http://www.kxan.com/dpp/news/education/aisd-could-cut-hundreds-of-jobs

Meanwhile, Hays County to the south has put a hiring freeze on more substitutes; Round Rock to the north will only employ certified teachers as substitutes (a Catch-22, since I will only be considered certified once I'm hired); and Bastrop to the east will not return my calls.

Yipeee! Hooray for Texas schools and the fine, upstanding leadership of Rick "Deep tax breaks for the very rich" Perry! :rolleyes:

Dr. Keith

24th January 2011, 12:13 PM

I heard a politician on the radio the other day saying that Texas has a student growth rate of about one Fort Worth ISD per year. In the next sentence he said we need to reduce non-teaching staff to 2006 levels.

Can you run an entire ISD with just teachers? No librarians, no counselors, no special ed aids, no lunch room staff, IT staff, secretaries, etc. What about 5 entire school districts? There is a certain amount of staff needed to run a school and you don't have to cut deep to hit muscle.

His next proposal was to increase class sizes because the best teachers can handle large classes just as well as small classes. Luckily he didn't put a limit on that or tell us who the best teachers were.

I feel for you position. Austin has got to be the toughest market in Texas for a new teacher. My wife couldn't get an interview within driving distance of Austin when I was graduating. She had several offers in Houston and Dallas. The economy is not helping, of course. The attrition rate is dropping very quickly so there are far fewer openings.

Best of luck.

themusicteacher

24th January 2011, 12:16 PM

madurobob

24th January 2011, 12:28 PM

Yipeee! Hooray for Texas schools and the fine, upstanding leadership of Rick "Deep tax breaks for the very rich" Perry! :rolleyes:

Not that I want to defend Rick Perry, but my home state of NC, who recently elected as Governor a Democrat promising a focus on eduction, has had to cut lots of K-12 education jobs to balance the budget. More cuts are forecast for 2011, too. That's not really the focus we voted for.

bikerdruid

24th January 2011, 12:38 PM

the impression i get of education in texas is that they don't want students who think.
didn't they just remove jefferson from their textbooks recently?

LarianLeQuella

24th January 2011, 01:24 PM

Dr. Keith

24th January 2011, 02:08 PM

Vortigern99

25th January 2011, 10:36 AM

Thanks for the sympathy, Keith. Now that 485 jobs have been cut from AISD teachers, and they're planning to "move affected [meaning laid off] teachers into vacant positions", my chances of getting hired in one of those vacancies has been whittled down from slim to none.

The best I can hope for at this point is to continue being a substitute until something opens up later in the year. This is not looking good for the Henson household.

I heard a politician on the radio the other day saying that Texas has a student growth rate of about one Fort Worth ISD per year. In the next sentence he said we need to reduce non-teaching staff to 2006 levels.

Can you run an entire ISD with just teachers? No librarians, no counselors, no special ed aids, no lunch room staff, IT staff, secretaries, etc. What about 5 entire school districts? There is a certain amount of staff needed to run a school and you don't have to cut deep to hit muscle.

His next proposal was to increase class sizes because the best teachers can handle large classes just as well as small classes. Luckily he didn't put a limit on that or tell us who the best teachers were.

I feel for you position. Austin has got to be the toughest market in Texas for a new teacher. My wife couldn't get an interview within driving distance of Austin when I was graduating. She had several offers in Houston and Dallas. The economy is not helping, of course. The attrition rate is dropping very quickly so there are far fewer openings.

Best of luck.

Vortigern99

25th January 2011, 11:08 AM

Texas has to be one of the most disingenuous states out there, too. They try to lay claim to a good system but it's really a piece of crap. The only reason companies station themselves there is because they get to use infrastructure for free, more or less, get access to pools of cheap labor and get the benefits of a corporate welfare system. Then, to top it off, the state grows because they hire workers from out of state (the ones where they actually have a good education system). Texas is running headfirst into their own egos.

I resist this kind of sweeping criticism, this monocausality, this monolithic entity-making. The entire Texas education system is "a piece of crap"? "The only reason" a company does something is according to a personal opinion derived from your limited, out-of-state viewpoint on the matter? "Out of state" automatically means "where they have a good education system"?

This is uncritical, non-skeptical, over-reaching derision -- not thoughtful analysis of the matter at hand.

Not that I want to defend Rick Perry, but my home state of NC, who recently elected as Governor a Democrat promising a focus on eduction, has had to cut lots of K-12 education jobs to balance the budget. More cuts are forecast for 2011, too. That's not really the focus we voted for.

Yikes. Maybe I'm wrong to fault Republican Governor Perry for these budget short-falls, and the problem is much wider and more troublesome than a single party's efforts to undermine public schooling.

Maybe I've been guilty of the same finger-pointing, monocausality fallacy that I've accused themusicteacher, above, of committing. The question certainly bears deeper inquiry.

the impression i get of education in texas is that they don't want students who think.
didn't they just remove jefferson from their textbooks recently?

Yes, evidently this (http://thinkprogress.org/2010/03/12/texas-education-board-cuts-thomas-jefferson-out-of-its-textbooks/) happened in March 2010.

The Texas Board of Education has a far-right faction that throws its weight around to get absurd curriculum changes, like Jefferson being stricken from our textbooks. Meanwhile the rest of the board looks on in horror, tries to oppose these changes, and finds that it's trying to face down a monster with roots that run deep into the Texas political system.

The problem is not as simple as "they don't want students who think"; it's the right-wing faction of the board trying -- and succeeding -- to inject conservative, Christian, Republican values into what by all rights should be a politically and religiously neutral, multi-faceted curriculum.

It should be noted, however, that just because Jefferson is not in the text books (a bewildering oversight considering his composition of the Declaration, among other massive contributions to this nation's formation), this does not mean that individual teachers cannot teach their kids about him, include questions about Jefferson on tests, or even require written papers about him.

In the future, I can see any job or college applicant being relegated to the circular file if they list Texas as where they went to school. It may get to the point where only the kids educated in Mexico will have the requisite skills to run the state, and the rest of the state just plays football.

I reject your prognostication of this imaginary future, especially considering that the huge Texas textbook market affects many other states, as well. Any flaws in the Texas education system will flow down into the other states' systems as well, via these conservative-agenda-driven textbooks.

Dismissing the entire Texas education system because of the actions of this current right-wing board faction is another example of this insidious, monolithic, moncausality fallacy -- which seems to amount to "All Texans are poorly educated because a conservative group has been introducing disagreeable changes to its textbooks".

This is ridiculous, and I request that you consider that there are vast numbers of people here, many of them organized and vocal, who oppose such changes as deplorable, and decry the politics of that egregious faction.

Also, like Dr. Keith, I was educated in Texas and I've been told I'm a fairly well-educated person.

madurobob

25th January 2011, 11:44 AM

Yikes. Maybe I'm wrong to fault Republican Governor Perry for these budget short-falls, and the problem is much wider and more troublesome than a single party's efforts to undermine public schooling.
I don't know if that's wrong or not, but I'm no fan of Perry's. NC schools have traditionally ranked in the lower dozen states in terms of education and we've suffered for decades from right wingers preaching that "you can't fix it by throwing money at it" (as if they'd tried). Its part of the overall mantra that government cannot do anything well and that large government programs should be intentionally underfunded to help push them into the private sector.

I wouldn't be surprised if your Gov Perry holds some of these notions, too. We're facing some tough education cuts across the board, but it at least looks like the pain is being shared across the State gov't, not disproportionately born by education. According to an e-mail from my Alma Matter (http://www.chancellor.appstate.edu/chancellor-message/budget-january-18-2011) NC is staring down the barrel of a 19% budget reduction across all agencies:
There is no additional Federal Recovery money. The temporary state sales taxes are slated to end June 30, 2011, and our economy remains sluggish with growth less than predicted. North Carolina is now facing a projected $3.7 billion shortfall for the 2011-12 year. According to the Office of State Budget and Management, this deficit translates to a 19.5 percent decrease across the board to all state agencies. Not since the Great Depression has North Carolina faced a budget deficit of this magnitude.

Sounds like its almost as bad in Texas.

mismatchedsocks

25th January 2011, 10:16 PM

Texas has a third world level education system and Texans are uneducated rednecks, secessionists and religious crazies. LOL, the ignorance of some people. You probably think we all ride horses instead of cars too.

What about the space center?

Never mind our world class medical facilities...
en dot wikipedia dot org slash wiki slash Dr._Michael_DeBakey
www dot huffingtonpost dot com slash 2011 slash 01 slash 21 slash gabrielle-giffords-rehab-houston_n_812313 dot html
(fricking thing won't let me post URLs)

...or that UT Austin, Texas A&M and Rice are frequently ranked among the top universities in the country.

Please spare me your ridiculously misinformed opinions.

UnrepentantSinner

25th January 2011, 10:41 PM

the impression i get of education in texas is that they don't want students who think.
didn't they just remove jefferson from their textbooks recently?

Contrary to what Vortigern posted, Jefferson was not removed from textbooks or teaching standards. He was instead removed from teaching standards as an Enlightenment thinker. He remains in textbooks and teaching standards for his contributions to the Founding period.

Texas has a third world level education system and Texans are uneducated rednecks, secessionists and religious crazies. LOL, the ignorance of some people. You probably think we all ride horses instead of cars too.

What about the space center?

Never mind our world class medical facilities...
en dot wikipedia dot org slash wiki slash Dr._Michael_DeBakey
www dot huffingtonpost dot com slash 2011 slash 01 slash 21 slash gabrielle-giffords-rehab-houston_n_812313 dot html
(fricking thing won't let me post URLs)

...or that UT Austin, Texas A&M and Rice are frequently ranked among the top universities in the country.

Please spare me your ridiculously misinformed opinions.

Vortigern is Austin, Dr. Keith is in Dallas (IIRC) as am I. Johnson is an entity of the Federal Government, TIRR is a hospital and the colleges you listed are, well, colleges, not primary and secondary schools.

You were saying?

lionking

25th January 2011, 10:56 PM

I can't understand how education is not the number priority of every government. Any Australian government which tried this crap on would soon lose power.

I feel for you Vort. Best of luck.

mismatchedsocks

25th January 2011, 11:12 PM

Vortigern is Austin, Dr. Keith is in Dallas (IIRC) as am I. Johnson is an entity of the Federal Government, TIRR is a hospital and the colleges you listed are, well, colleges, not primary and secondary schools.

You were saying?

My post was directed at these gems:
In the future, I can see any job or college applicant being relegated to the circular file if they list Texas as where they went to school. It may get to the point where only the kids educated in Mexico will have the requisite skills to run the state, and the rest of the state just plays football.

Texas has to be one of the most disingenuous states out there, too. They try to lay claim to a good system but it's really a piece of crap. The only reason companies station themselves there is because they get to use infrastructure for free, more or less, get access to pools of cheap labor and get the benefits of a corporate welfare system. Then, to top it off, the state grows because they hire workers from out of state (the ones where they actually have a good education system). Texas is running headfirst into their own egos.

UnrepentantSinner

25th January 2011, 11:35 PM

My post was directed at these gems:

I think half of what tmt said is accurate. We've created this wonderland for businesses to operate, find cheap labor, get tax breaks, etc., but we've really been screwing the pooch when it comes to education at the primary and secondary level for a long time now.

Vortigern99

26th January 2011, 12:14 PM

Contrary to what Vortigern posted, Jefferson was not removed from textbooks or teaching standards. He was instead removed from teaching standards as an Enlightenment thinker. He remains in textbooks and teaching standards for his contributions to the Founding period.

Okay, thanks for the clarification. The link I provided upthread states without qualifiers: "– The Board removed Thomas Jefferson from the Texas curriculum, 'replacing him with religious right icon John Calvin.'"

I did no further research to corroborate this assertion, which has evidently been oversimplified to the point of being wrong. The media enjoys digestible slogans -- "Jefferson removed from Texas textbooks!" -- when the actual story more complex and not nearly as incendiary.

Vortigern99

26th January 2011, 12:16 PM

I can't understand how education is not the number priority of every government. Any Australian government which tried this crap on would soon lose power.

I feel for you Vort. Best of luck.

Thanks for the sentiment, Lionking. I'll keep you abreast of any developments, in the Texas education system and in any armed insurgencies which result from its on-going mismanagement. ;)

Vortigern99

26th January 2011, 01:39 PM

Texas has a third world level education system and Texans are uneducated rednecks, secessionists and religious crazies. LOL, the ignorance of some people. You probably think we all ride horses instead of cars too.

What about the space center?

Never mind our world class medical facilities...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dr._Michael_DeBakey
www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/21/gabrielle-giffords-rehab-houston_n_812313.html

...or that UT Austin, Texas A&M and Rice are frequently ranked among the top universities in the country.

Please spare me your ridiculously misinformed opinions.

Agree with all of the above. Tried to fix the links; hope they work. :cool:

Malcolm Kirkpatrick

27th January 2011, 01:34 PM

Texas has to be one of the most disingenuous states out there, too. They try to lay claim to a good system but it's really a piece of crap.NAEP comparisons here (http://nces.ed.gov/nationsreportcard/pdf/stt2009/2010454TX8.pdf). Budget data here (http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d09/tables/dt09_183.asp?referrer=list). $9,000 per pupil-year is more than enough. It does not take 12 years at $9,000 per pupil-year to teach a normal child to read and compute. Most vocational training occurs more effectively on the job than in a classroom. State (government, generally) provision of History and Civics instruction is a threat to democracy, just as State operation of newspapers would be, and is in totalitarian countries like Cuba and North Korea.

Malcolm Kirkpatrick

27th January 2011, 01:47 PM

I can't understand how education is not the number priority of every government. Any Australian government which tried this crap on would soon lose power.I can understand why people imagine that government is the source of everything that makes life worth living: a combination of Stockholm syndrome and an infantile power fantasy (what a wonderful world it would be if I ran it).

I don't share that fantasy.

Are we naked because the State does not operate cotton farms, sheep ranches, textile mills, and clothing stores? Are we starving because the State does not operate collective farms, grocery stores, and restaurants? Why suppose that the largest dealer in interpersonal violence in your neighborhood (the State) has anything useful to contribute to the education industry beyond what it contributes to commerce generally: property rights and predictible contract law?

madurobob

27th January 2011, 02:17 PM

NAEP comparisons here (http://nces.ed.gov/nationsreportcard/pdf/stt2009/2010454TX8.pdf). Budget data here (http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d09/tables/dt09_183.asp?referrer=list).
You can click a state for state-by-state comparisons here
(http://nces.ed.gov/nationsreportcard/states/)

$9,000 per pupil-year is more than enough. It does not take 12 years at $9,000 per pupil-year to teach a normal child to read and compute.
The state-by-state link above says its $8,486/pupil in Texas. But, lets say it is $9K for the sake of argument. What does it take to properly "teach a normal child to read and compute" over 12 years? Have you looked at the correlation between per-pupil spending and student achievement across the country?

Most vocational training occurs more effectively on the job than in a classroom. State (government, generally) provision of History and Civics instruction is a threat to democracy, just as State operation of newspapers would be, and is in totalitarian countries like Cuba and North Korea.
Phew, for a second there I though you were going to Godwin this thread! But, I fail to see how state-mandated curricula are a threat to democracy. Who establishes the curricula and how do they get there?

Almo

27th January 2011, 02:45 PM

The way humans are built, I can't think of anything more important to invest in than education. Nothing else matters if we don't educate the next generation.

To head off the pedants, obviously we need to feed the parents to take care of the children, etc.

Malcolm Kirkpatrick

27th January 2011, 03:31 PM

The state-by-state link above says its $8,486/pupil in Texas.Browse the Digest. NCES disagrees with NCES. They get data from different sources. They are not analysts or critics. They report; you decide.But, lets say it is $9K for the sake of argument. What does it take to properly "teach a normal child to read and compute" over 12 years?That's the argument for a market in education services. "What works?" is an empirical question which only an experiment can decide. We can be pretty confident that the job can be done for less, since many countries achieve better results than the US for far less than the US spends, per pupil.Have you looked at the correlation between per-pupil spending and student achievement across the country?Yes. It's negative. The top-achieving US States are not the top spending States. The economist Eric Hanushek wrote somewhere that, above a relatively low level, resources do not matter much to school system performance.I fail to see how state-mandated curricula are a threat to democracy. Who establishes the curricula and how do they get there?Good intentions will always be pleaded for every assumption of authority. It is hardly too strong to say that the constitution was made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters. --Noah WebsterThe aim of public education is not to spread enlightenment at all; it is simply to reduce as many individuals as possible to the same safe level, to breed a standard citizenry, to put down dissent and originality. School days, I believe, are the unhappiest in the whole span of human existence. They are full of dull, unintelligible tasks, new and unpleasant ordinances, and brutal violations of common sense and common decency. --H.L. MenckenWhenever is found what is called a paternal government, there is found state education. It has been discovered that the best way to insure implicit obedience is to commence tyranny in the nursery.--Benjamin Disraeli (1874)The terrifying thing about modern dictatorships is that they are something entirely unprecedented. Their end cannot be foreseen. In the past, every tyranny was sooner or later overthrown, or at least resisted because of "human nature," which as a matter of course desired liberty. But we cannot be at all certain that human nature is constant. It may be just as possible to produce a breed of men who do not wish for liberty as to produce a breed of hornless cows. The Inquisition failed, but then the Inquisition had not the resources of the modern state. The radio, press censorship, standardized education and the secret police have alterted everything. Mass suggestion is a science of the last twenty years, and we do not know how successful it will be.--George Orwell-- Review of Russia under Soviet Rule by N. de Basily" (Essays, George Orwell, Knopf, 2002).One has only to to think of the sinister possibilities of the radio, State-controlled education, and so forth, to realize that 'the truth is great and will prevail' is a prayer rather than an axiom.--George Orwell (Review of Power; A New Social Analysis by Bertrand Russell).

madurobob

27th January 2011, 03:41 PM

Browse the Digest. NCES disagrees with NCES. They get data from different sources. They are not analysts or critics. They report; you decide.
Yeah, to some extent thats true.

That's the argument for a market in education services. "What works?" is an empirical question which only an experiment can decide. We can be pretty confident that the job can be done for less, since many countries achieve better results than the US for far less than the US spends, per pupil.
Evidence?

Yes. It's negative.
Not according to my quick browsing of the NCES data. I clicked about 15 states. All of those that had ratings above average were among the top spenders per pupil. I'll do a more auditable review later. I welcome you to do the same (that's why I linked to the state by state report in the first place)

Not sure what the various quotes are supposed to tell me. Some author said this so it must be true! You dodged the question. Do you have an answer in your own words - an honest assessment of the threat to democracy of state mandated school curricula as it works in the USA today?

themusicteacher

27th January 2011, 03:57 PM

NAEP comparisons here (http://nces.ed.gov/nationsreportcard/pdf/stt2009/2010454TX8.pdf). Budget data here (http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d09/tables/dt09_183.asp?referrer=list). $9,000 per pupil-year is more than enough. It does not take 12 years at $9,000 per pupil-year to teach a normal child to read and compute. Most vocational training occurs more effectively on the job than in a classroom. State (government, generally) provision of History and Civics instruction is a threat to democracy, just as State operation of newspapers would be, and is in totalitarian countries like Cuba and North Korea.

The last part of your post is silly and I don't really care what they spend per pupil. Plus, are you happy with an educational system that only concerns itself with teaching kids how to "compute and read." If that's all the education system is for, we can get kids out to the workforce after middle school.

themusicteacher

27th January 2011, 04:19 PM

I can understand why people imagine that government is the source of everything that makes life worth living: a combination of Stockholm syndrome and an infantile power fantasy (what a wonderful world it would be if I ran it).

I don't share that fantasy.

Are we naked because the State does not operate cotton farms, sheep ranches, textile mills, and clothing stores? Are we starving because the State does not operate collective farms, grocery stores, and restaurants? Why suppose that the largest dealer in interpersonal violence in your neighborhood (the State) has anything useful to contribute to the education industry beyond what it contributes to commerce generally: property rights and predictible contract law?

Wow, meaningless piffle, strawmen and false equivalence all at once. Of course the state has an interest in a solid education system. How do you suppose the state (non-totalitarian ones like ours; yes, I know this doesn't jibe with your worldview but it's true nevertheless - we live in the most free society on Earth, deal with it) thrives and perpetuates itself without a populace that can create opportunity and and pass on it's values, practices and institutions? I imagine in your fantasy all people just magically acquire advanced knowledge and skills or is it just the wealthy that are allowed to educate their children?

Your little list of "things the government doesn't provide but we still have" is nonsensical as it relates to education. If the government didn't provide good schools at an affordable rate, private enterprise would not. They might offer education at Diamond, Gold, Silver, Bronze, Tin and Paper rates but at least the government tries to educate students equally. Education is not an investment that pays off immediately and the only reason private schools even exist is because they charge the rich exorbitant rates to keep their kids away from the "riff-raff."

You engage in the same wishful thinking you accuse others of: living in a world that you create in some sort of solipsistic, anti-authoritarian fun-house where your own nutty mental meanderings are made sacrosanct.

Malcolm Kirkpatrick

27th January 2011, 04:23 PM

What does it take to properly "teach a normal child to read and compute" over 12 years?That's the argument for a market in education services. "What works?" is an empirical question which only an experiment can decide. We can be pretty confident that the job can be done for less, since many countries achieve better results than the US for far less than the US spends, per pupil.Evidence?Here (http://nces.ed.gov/timss/table07_1.asp) (TIMSS 8th grade Math scores). Here (http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d07/tables/dt07_404.asp?referrer=list) (per pupil budgets). Every country that out-performed the US spent less than the US.Have you looked at the correlation between per-pupil spending and student achievement across the country?Yes. It's negative.Not according to my quick browsing of the NCES data. I clicked about 15 states. All of those that had ratings above average were among the top spenders per pupil. I'll do a more auditable review later. I welcome you to do the same (that's why I linked to the state by state report in the first place)I did all this for ten years, starting around 1995. I do not have EXCEL on this machine. Maybe I could use Open Office, but it's just boring to do all this again. I used 1990, 1994, 1992, 1996, and 2000 NAEP 4th and 8th grade Reading and/or Math NAEP test results. I used proficiency scores, percentile scores, mean scores, and mean scores by parents' race and level of education. I used Composite scores, Numbers and Operations subtest scores, and Algebra and Functions subtest scores. I used the EXCEL correlation function to relate performance to institutional variables: district size--smaller is better, age (start)--later is better, per-pupil budgets--money does not help, and teacher credentials--useless.Not sure what the various quotes are supposed to tell me. Some author said this so it must be true!Authors, and they make an argument.You dodged the question. Do you have an answer in your own words - an honest assessment of the threat to democracy of state mandated school curricula as it works in the USA today?Government employees in government-operated indoctrination centers instruct the next generation of voters. What could possibly go wrong? For one, Colleges of Education act as filters. Just check out the political orientation of Professors of Secondary Social Studies Education.

Malcolm Kirkpatrick

27th January 2011, 04:55 PM

(Some) insults deleted......Of course the state has an interest in a solid education system. How do you suppose the state (non-totalitarian ones like ours...) thrives and perpetuates itself without a populace that can create opportunity and and pass on it's values, practices and institutions?The way States operated before the imposition of State-operated schools. Let people find their own way....I imagine in your fantasy all people just magically acquire advanced knowledge and skills or is it just the wealthy that are allowed to educate their children?School can be expensive; education is potentially cheap. Thomas Edison's parents were not wealthy, nor Henry Ford's, nor Cyrus McCormicks, nor Richard Arkwright's nor James Hargreaves'.Your little list of "things the government doesn't provide but we still have" is nonsensical as it relates to education. If the government didn't provide good schools at an affordable rate, private enterprise would not.Why suppose this? Evidence (http://www.libertyindia.org/pdfs/tooley_education.pdf) is against (http://www.educationnext.org/20054/22.html) this (http://www.ncl.ac.uk/egwest/pdfs/economics%20of%20compulsion.pdf).They might offer education at Diamond, Gold, Silver, Bronze, Tin and Paper rates but at least the government tries to educate students equally.Not at all! Government schools exacerbate inequality. The income-related test score gap is lower in parochial schools than in State schools. The differences between white and black HS graduation rates and college acceptance rates are smaller for parochial schools than for government schools. The US "public" school system originated in theocratic indoctrination (see " 'that old deluder, Satan' Act") and, later, anti-Catholic bigotry.Education is not an investment that pays off immediately and the only reason private schools even exist is because they charge the rich exorbitant rates to keep their kids away from the "riff-raff."Qualified agreement, here. If you pay more than around $5,000 per year for "school" you're probably buying prestige or social exclusion. This does not mean that parents would not or could not provide for their children's education in an unsubsidized and minimally-regulated market for education services.You engage in the same wishful thinking you accuse others of: living in a world that you create in some sort of solipsistic, anti-authoritarian fun-house where your own nutty mental meanderings are made sacrosanct.I can understand why you'd be concerned that your teaching skills might not find customers in a free market.

USEagle13

27th January 2011, 07:24 PM

Just when I'm beginning to gets substitute teaching jobs in Austin, and while I study for content exams which will help to certify me for permanent employment in the Texas school system, the proverbial **** hits the fan:

[Emphasis mine.]

http://www.kxan.com/dpp/news/education/aisd-could-cut-hundreds-of-jobs

Meanwhile, Hays County to the south has put a hiring freeze on more substitutes; Round Rock to the north will only employ certified teachers as substitutes (a Catch-22, since I will only be considered certified once I'm hired); and Bastrop to the east will not return my calls.

Yipeee! Hooray for Texas schools and the fine, upstanding leadership of Rick "Deep tax breaks for the very rich" Perry! :rolleyes:

Did you ever learn any other "life skills" you can fall back on? Or did you just plan on being a teacher your whole life?

In Obama's speech he "claims" everyone should become teachers. It's kinda funny because before it's all said and done, the whole country is gonna be cutting back on everything. Including school spending.

Heck they are closing the community colleges as we speak.

They are also in the process of down sizing all the emergency personnel including police/fire fighters.

Try getting into the "green energy field". If you learn a lot in there you can become one of the people to teach it to others who are getting into the field.

Good luck to you and your family and try to hang in there. Stuff may get tough but you have to keep on truckin.....I will be praying for you.

madurobob

28th January 2011, 10:00 AM

Here (http://nces.ed.gov/timss/table07_1.asp) (TIMSS 8th grade Math scores). Here (http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d07/tables/dt07_404.asp?referrer=list) (per pupil budgets). Every country that out-performed the US spent less than the US.
But, you know as well as I do this is an inappropriate comparison. Economic conditions allowing greater investment in education are different across the countries, as is the education system in general, not to mention what gets counted as an education expenditure. Also, the comparison is only on math scores, nothing else. Anyway, what is a more realistic comparison is growth (or decline) in spending over time.

So, there is not much overlap between your two links. The first shows us 8 countries performing better on 8th grade math than US students. Only three of those countries are listed on the second link, and all three had a compound annual growth (CAGR) in middle school education spending over four years materially higher than the US. That is, they are increasing their education spending at a materially faster rate. And guess what - its working! They are doing better than us!

for the record: CAGR over four years in middle school spending where you two links overlapped:

USA: 2.9%
Korea: 13.5%
Japan: 5.0%
UK: 4.3%

Government employees in government-operated indoctrination centers instruct the next generation of voters. What could possibly go wrong? For one, Colleges of Education act as filters. Just check out the political orientation of Professors of Secondary Social Studies Education.
Really... So, how do you explain the Texas Board of Education and their control over what school kids read in textbooks across the nation? Great evul librul agenda, huh?

Malcolm Kirkpatrick

28th January 2011, 11:01 AM

But, you know as well as I do this is an inappropriate comparison. Economic conditions allowing greater investment in education are different across the countries, as is the education system in general, not to mention what gets counted as an education expenditure. Also, the comparison is only on math scores, nothing else. Anyway, what is a more realistic comparison is growth (or decline) in spending over time.
That last comment makes sense. As a wise lady from the ETS once said: "We can't measure what's important so we measure what we can". I do not accept that the terms "allow" or "growth in spending over time" contribute to this discussion. We were talking about dollar-denominated resources devoted to K-12 education. NCES provides statistics. If resources matter to education system performance as measured by standardized tests, I do not see how a country, A, which spends $2000 per pupil in year X and $4000 (a 100%) in year X+10 can outperform a country, B, that cuts per pupil spending from $10,000 in year X to $5,000 in year X+10 (a 50% cut). B has $1,000 more per pupil to spend on staff, supplies, and facilities. Finally, here's (http://www.cato-at-liberty.org/obama-touts-failed-federal-program/) one of many refutations of the contention that increased spending generates increased performance.So, there is not much overlap between your two links. The first shows us 8 countries performing better on 8th grade math than US students. Only three of those countries are listed on the second link, and all three had a compound annual growth (CAGR) in middle school education spending over four years materially higher than the US. That is, they are increasing their education spending at a materially faster rate. And guess what - its working! They are doing better than us!Did they ever do worse?You dodged the question. Do you have an answer in your own words - an honest assessment of the threat to democracy of state mandated school curricula as it works in the USA today?Government employees in government-operated indoctrination centers instruct the next generation of voters. What could possibly go wrong? For one, Colleges of Education act as filters. Just check out the political orientation of Professors of Secondary Social Studies Education.Really... So, how do you explain the Texas Board of Education and their control over what school kids read in textbooks across the nation? Great evul librul agenda, huh?This says nothing about the influence of Colleges of Education, which addressed the question: "I fail to see how state-mandated curricula are a threat to democracy. Who establishes the curricula and how do they get there?" Look at the institutional affiliations of the authors. Further, any imposed agenda is a threat to democracy. Expertise is important, but it's important that experts not choose the experts. Not even political experts (politicians).

shadron

28th January 2011, 11:35 AM

From a Perry speech about education:

Well, there is a lot of fat to cut from our public schools, especially those in our biggest urban areas like Houston and Dallas. I am concerned that some the highly diverse Magnet public schools in this city are becoming hotbeds for liberalism. Do we really need free school bus service, Black History Month, Hispanic Heritage Month, Asian-Pacific Heritage Month, ESL, special needs and enrichment programs like music, art or math Olympiad? I think we should get back to the basics of the three Rs, reading writing and arithmetic. I mean when is the last time a 6th grade science fair project yielded a cure for a disease?

Well, science can sure see the writing on the wall, there. If you can't cure, say, Diptheria by the sixth grade, then what use are you?

madurobob

28th January 2011, 11:55 AM

That last comment makes sense. As a wise lady from the ETS once said: "We can't measure what's important so we measure what we can". I do not accept that the terms "allow" or "growth in spending over time" contribute to this discussion. We were talking about dollar-denominated resources devoted to K-12 education.
Accept them or not, they are necessary to the discussion. There are too many differences in what is counted as education spending, who in the population is counted, and what proportion of schools in each country participate. A simple and obvious way to find common ground is to look at YtY growth in spending compared to results. I did that and those that are increasing their spending over time are driving better results. This is clear evidence that at least within a relevant range quality of education increases with education spending.

I do not see how a country, A, which spends $2000 per pupil in year X and $4000 (a 100%) in year X+10 can outperform a country, B, that cuts per pupil spending from $10,000 in year X to $5,000 in year X+10 (a 50% cut). B has $1,000 more per pupil to spend on staff, supplies, and facilities.
Then you lack imagination. As I've said, the economic and other differences between countries is too drastic for a simplistic look at who spent most. We have vast distances to cover across the USA so travel is a much large expense than in more densely populated countries. We have wide ranging sports and other extra-curricular activities included in spending that are not replicated in other countries. We mandate that all children attend school and that may not be replicated in other countries.

Did they ever do worse?
Absolutley. Just 20 years ago the USA was #1 or #2 in the proportion of high school grads and the proportion of college grads among citizens 25034. Today we're in the low double-digits in those rankings, and are being displaced by those same countries who are increasing their education spending.

This says nothing about the influence of Colleges of Education, which addressed the question: "I fail to see how state-mandated curricula are a threat to democracy. Who establishes the curricula and how do they get there?" Look at the institutional affiliations of the authors. Further, any imposed agenda is a threat to democracy.
Actually, it goes to the heart of the matter. You claim some bizarre domino theory with public funded education that will lead to totalitarian rule. That's crazy. School curricula are not set by colleges of education, nor their professors. They are set at the state and local level and are set by elected officials.

One such group of elected officials is the Texas School Board that has significant influence over textbook content across the nation and is about as far from "liberal" as you can get.

I am by no means advocating for blindly pouring billions into Boards of Education across this country. But a few facts are obvious:

We are falling behind other countries in education.
Those countries are increasing their investment in education
Across this country, we see a direct and positive correlation between education spending and quality of education.

The obvious conclusion is that increasing spending on education has a positive effect on education quality. There is a relative range, to be sure. At some point your returns will begin to diminish. I don't think we are anywhere near that threshold in the USA.

bikerdruid

28th January 2011, 12:37 PM

From a Perry speech about education:

Originally Posted by Rick Perry
Well, there is a lot of fat to cut from our public schools, especially those in our biggest urban areas like Houston and Dallas. I am concerned that some the highly diverse Magnet public schools in this city are becoming hotbeds for liberalism. Do we really need free school bus service, Black History Month, Hispanic Heritage Month, Asian-Pacific Heritage Month, ESL, special needs and enrichment programs like music, art or math Olympiad? I think we should get back to the basics of the three Rs, reading writing and arithmetic. I mean when is the last time a 6th grade science fair project yielded a cure for a disease?

Well, science can sure see the writing on the wall, there. If you can't cure, say, Diptheria by the sixth grade, then what use are you?

wow....texas wishes to return to the dark ages.
heck, why do we need esl and special needs anyways.
if they can't understand the language, or have learning difficulties, let 'em beg on the streets.
we don't need 'em.

wow...just WOW!

Malcolm Kirkpatrick

28th January 2011, 12:57 PM

Accept them or not, they are necessary to the discussion. There are too many differences in what is counted as education spending, who in the population is counted, and what proportion of schools in each country participate."Too many" for what?A simple and obvious way to find common ground is to look at YtY growth in spending compared to results.We will agree if I accept your metrics and reject mine? Back at ya.I did that and those that are increasing their spending over time are driving better results. This is clear evidence that at least within a relevant range quality of education increases with education spending.The US experience of the last thirty years indicates otherwise.If resources matter to education system performance as measured by standardized tests, (Cute deletion there)...I do not see how a country, A, which spends $2000 per pupil in year X and $4000 (a 100%) in year X+10 can outperform a country, B, that cuts per pupil spending from $10,000 in year X to $5,000 in year X+10 (a 50% cut). B has $1,000 more per pupil to spend on staff, supplies, and facilities.Then you lack imagination. As I've said, the economic and other differences between countries is too drastic for a simplistic look at who spent most.It's equally "simplistic" (that's the gone-to-college way to say "stupid", folks), then, to suppose that enhanced resources will improve the performance of the US education industry. We have vast distances to cover across the USA so travel is a much large expense than in more densely populated countries.The most expensive large districts in the US are urban districts.We have wide ranging sports and other extra-curricular activities included in spending that are not replicated in other countries.That is an argument for a competitive market in education services. If we disagree about a matter of taste, a competitive market in education services will allow for the expression of varied tastes, while a State-monopoly provider establishes a winner-take-all contest for control that must create unhappy losers. Are interscholastic sports programs wanted? By some. Let them pay for them.We mandate that all children attend school and that may not be replicated in other countries.TIMSS compares 8th grade and 13-year-old performance, in countries which compel attendance and others. Yes, we can compare apples to apples.Absolutley. Just 20 years ago the USA was #1 or #2 in the proportion of high school grads and the proportion of college grads among citizens 25-34. Today we're in the low double-digits in those rankings, and are being displaced by those same countries who are increasing their education spending."Graduation" means less than performance on standardized tests of reading and Math. 12 years of crap is a load of crap. I note you did not dispute the statistics which indicated flat test performance and increasing funding in the US. Here's another graph (http://simplecomplexity.net/education-achievement-data/).Actually, it goes to the heart of the matter. You claim some bizarre domino theory with public funded education that will lead to totalitarian rule.
I wrote:... State (government, generally) provision of History and Civics instruction is a threat to democracy, just as State operation of newspapers would be, and is in totalitarian countries like Cuba and North Korea. I have supported that assertion with quotes from intelligent observers, including politicians, and with pointers to key chokepoints (colleges of Education).That's crazy. School curricula are not set by colleges of education, nor their professors. They are set at the state and local level and are set by elected officials.a) you underestimate the influence of Professors of Education. b) Political influence on curriculum is a threat to democracy, even if the people who wield that influence attain their position through election.
I am by no means advocating for blindly pouring billions into Boards of Education across this country. But a few facts are obvious:
[LIST]
We are falling behind other countries in education.
Those countries are increasing their investment in education
Across this country, we see a direct and positive correlation between education spending and quality of education.That's "simplistic". At one point, North Dakota was the only US State to match Singapore (tops in the world on TIMSS), and N.Dak spending was among the lowest. Across the US, the correlation ($/pupil, score) is weak. Over time, the correlation ($/pupil, score) is zero. Increased spending, no gain.

lomiller

28th January 2011, 01:00 PM

So, there is not much overlap between your two links. The first shows us 8 countries performing better on 8th grade math than US students. Only three of those countries are listed on the second link, and all three had a compound annual growth (CAGR) in middle school education spending over four years materially higher than the US. That is, they are increasing their education spending at a materially faster rate. And guess what - its working! They are doing better than us!

You would get better coverage if you use the PISA rankings, as they have most or all the OECD countries. The PISA results have the US scoring below the OECD average dissipate spending considerably more then the OECD average.
It’s worth nothing that the US rankings in TIMSS drops off significantly between grade 8 and grade 12 and only the grade 8 results were included in the post you were responding to.

Alareth

28th January 2011, 01:52 PM

wow....texas wishes to return to the dark ages.
heck, why do we need esl and special needs anyways.
if they can't understand the language, or have learning difficulties, let 'em beg on the streets.
we don't need 'em.

wow...just WOW!

This link has more from the same speech and I find it horrifying:

http://www.burntorangereport.com/diary/11052/governor-rick-perry-urges-republican-voters-to-abandon-public-schools

Why put any effort into education. Who goes to college anyway? Need to maintain the lower class to crush under our feet

I really don't see why high schools should have to teach college level courses like calculus, economics, physics, chemistry or biology. Not all children go to college anyway. Texas has plenty of on the job training programs that teach skills and trades. Oil field workers need to know how to operate machines that extract oil. They don't need calculus to do their job.

bikerdruid

28th January 2011, 02:03 PM

Dragonrock

28th January 2011, 02:32 PM

In the future, I can see any job or college applicant being relegated to the circular file if they list Texas as where they went to school. It may get to the point where only the kids educated in Mexico will have the requisite skills to run the state, and the rest of the state just plays football.

I'm sure that your ignorant derision is extremely accurate because there certainly wouldn't be any highly rated schools in Texas. And certainly no school in Texas would ever be rated the #1 public school in the US.

Certainly not.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_for_the_Talented_%26_Gifted

Alareth

28th January 2011, 02:34 PM

...scary stuff.....so who the heck is this rick perry clown?

The Governor of Texas.

Dr. Keith

28th January 2011, 02:35 PM

This link has more from the same speech and I find it horrifying:

http://www.burntorangereport.com/diary/11052/governor-rick-perry-urges-republican-voters-to-abandon-public-schools

Why put any effort into education. Who goes to college anyway? Need to maintain the lower class to crush under our feet

Thanks for the link. I was very interested in getting to the bottom of this.

If you read the comments it is actually parody. In other words, Perry hasn't said these things, yet.

The sad thing is that he likely has said many similar things, so it seems odd to have to make stuff up.

Alareth

28th January 2011, 02:43 PM

Oh damn. It's come to my attention that my previous link was a Poe. Please disregard all the contents.

shadron

28th January 2011, 03:24 PM

Damn. Sorry if I mislead on that; I got the first part of the quote from Pharyngula. He says (now):

I have been snared by Poe's law! All I can say in defense is that I was only caught because it's a hair's breadth from reality.

Nosi

28th January 2011, 05:32 PM

Nosi

28th January 2011, 05:50 PM

UnrepentantSinner

29th January 2011, 01:44 AM

Chaos

29th January 2011, 03:46 AM

Governor Perry wanting to eviscerate our school cirriculum =/= "Texas".

I guess you didn´t elect him - but somebody did. Or are you going to claim that he was forced on Texas by some devious outside agency?

This is representative government, my friend. People are responsible for who ends up behind the boss´ desk. "I don´t like like him anyway" only cuts it for dictatorships.

USEagle13

29th January 2011, 06:04 AM

I guess you didn´t elect him - but somebody did. Or are you going to claim that he was forced on Texas by some devious outside agency?

This is representative government, my friend. People are responsible for who ends up behind the boss´ desk. "I don´t like like him anyway" only cuts it for dictatorships.

Well, I am from Texas and it was either gonna be Rick (super highway) Perry, Bill (gonna make some kickbacks) White, or some Farooq (move my business to the USA for election) Shami dude. Basically we had 3 crappy peeps to choose from. Either way we were gonna get crap. Might as well stick with crap you know I guess....

Chaos

29th January 2011, 07:49 AM

Well, I am from Texas and it was either gonna be Rick (super highway) Perry, Bill (gonna make some kickbacks) White, or some Farooq (move my business to the USA for election) Shami dude. Basically we had 3 crappy peeps to choose from. Either way we were gonna get crap. Might as well stick with crap you know I guess....

And whose fault is it that nobody decent ran? Could it perhaps, for example, be that nobody ever votes for any decent person that runs for office?

USEagle13

29th January 2011, 10:22 AM

And whose fault is it that nobody decent ran? Could it perhaps, for example, be that nobody ever votes for any decent person that runs for office?

Yes, you are correct. I stand by whoever is in office. No one is "perfect" and personally I like Perry a lot more compared to everyone else who ran.

He is as American as apple pie in my opinion and has done a lot of good for Texas.

Politics is one of the "toughest" fields to get into for sure with not much reward for all the effort they have to put into it. It is a full time job and I respect those people a lot because of all the whining and moaning they have to deal with on a constant basis from all sides.

It would be awesome to be able to shake Rick Perry's hand one day.

bikerdruid

29th January 2011, 10:28 AM

It would be awesome to be able to shake Rick Perry's hand one day.

this is the guy who thinks that school doesn't need anything but the three r's?
.......the guy who thinks that esl and special needs is unnecessary?:boggled:

do you have kids in texan schools?

USEagle13

29th January 2011, 10:38 AM

this is the guy who thinks that school doesn't need anything but the three r's?
.......the guy who thinks that esl and special needs is unnecessary?:boggled:

do you have kids in texan schools?

Seeing as how you cannot "physically" eat school I'm not to worried about it. I know plenty of people with degrees that do not have jobs because they are above certain forms of work and just want to pencil push.

I do not have kids in Texas schools but plenty of family members do. They are not as horrible as people claim.

The people claiming this nonsense that TX schools suck are just yankees hating on southern dixies like always. Trust me there is tons of animosity from northerners against southerners.

Enjoy all your snow suckas.......

Corsair 115

29th January 2011, 02:00 PM

He is as American as apple pie in my opinion...

What does that mean, exactly?

The people claiming this nonsense that TX schools suck are just yankees hating on southern dixies like always.

In juxtaposing the two quotes, does the second mean that only southerners are 'real' Americans? :confused:

Malcolm Kirkpatrick

29th January 2011, 02:40 PM

It would be awesome to be able to shake Rick Perry's hand one day.
this is the guy who thinks that school doesn't need anything but the three r's?...the guy who thinks that esl and special needs is unnecessary?Review this thread....
Oh damn. It's come to my attention that my previous link was a Poe. Please disregard all the contents.That was a fabrication.do you have kids in texan schools?US parents could do a lot worse. See this (http://nationsreportcard.gov/math_2009/gr8_state.asp).

elbe

29th January 2011, 03:27 PM

My little niece has just entered the Texas school system and I'm a little concerned about her education. It's not just TX standards, though; as much as I love my sister she's not particularly well read so her home education may not be as supporting as she may need.

W.D.Clinger

31st January 2011, 05:52 AM

The people claiming this nonsense that TX schools suck are just yankees hating on southern dixies like always. Trust me there is tons of animosity from northerners against southerners.
That was obvious even before the War of Northern Aggression (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naming_the_American_Civil_War).†

†When Yankees are around, we refer to that recent unpleasantness as the War Between the States (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naming_the_American_Civil_War).‡

‡Had I not gone to school in Texas, I might never have learned the proper nomenclature.

:TEXAS:

LarianLeQuella

3rd February 2011, 08:28 AM

I reject your prognostication of this imaginary future, especially considering that the huge Texas textbook market affects many other states, as well. Any flaws in the Texas education system will flow down into the other states' systems as well, via these conservative-agenda-driven textbooks.

Dismissing the entire Texas education system because of the actions of this current right-wing board faction is another example of this insidious, monolithic, moncausality fallacy -- which seems to amount to "All Texans are poorly educated because a conservative group has been introducing disagreeable changes to its textbooks".

This is ridiculous, and I request that you consider that there are vast numbers of people here, many of them organized and vocal, who oppose such changes as deplorable, and decry the politics of that egregious faction.

Sorry, should have included a smiley of some sort for my snark. ;) I think I had just reached overload of dumb crap that the far right has been getting away with.

Nosi

3rd February 2011, 11:13 PM

And whose fault is it that nobody decent ran? Could it perhaps, for example, be that nobody ever votes for any decent person that runs for office?

It's called no one could afford to run, it cost $$ to run a campaign, and you have to bend over for certain "contributers" if you get my drift. Decent sorts don't want to do that... so they don't run for office. The more I read, the more glad I am I never had a rug rat!

Nosi

3rd February 2011, 11:16 PM

Review this thread....
That was a fabrication.US parents could do a lot worse. See this (http://nationsreportcard.gov/math_2009/gr8_state.asp).

My computer had a tantrum and I couldn't see that. :mad: What was it?

Beat

4th February 2011, 09:35 AM

He is as American as apple pie in my opinion. . .

So in other words, he's not American? :p

Malcolm Kirkpatrick

4th February 2011, 08:47 PM

My computer had a tantrum and I couldn't see that. :mad: What was it?NCES map comparing State-level NAEP 8th grade Math scores.

elbe

4th February 2011, 09:34 PM

My computer had a tantrum and I couldn't see that. :mad: What was it?

It's a cherry picked bit of data for the only subject/grade that Texas was significantly above the national average in 2009. For everything else I saw they were around the national average.

It's also a really annoying website, but that's just my opinion.

eeyore1954

7th February 2011, 09:41 PM

It should be noted, however, that just because Jefferson is not in the text books (a bewildering oversight considering his composition of the Declaration, among other massive contributions to this nation's formation), this does not mean that individual teachers cannot teach their kids about him, include questions about Jefferson on tests, or even require written papers about him.

I would check your facts . Jefferson has not been removed from the textbooks. A particular reference with Jefferson as an example has been removed.

Vortigern99

9th February 2011, 03:19 PM

Okay, thanks for the clarification. The link I provided upthread states without qualifiers: "– The Board removed Thomas Jefferson from the Texas curriculum, 'replacing him with religious right icon John Calvin.'"

I did no further research to corroborate this assertion, which has evidently been oversimplified to the point of being wrong. The media enjoys digestible slogans -- "Jefferson removed from Texas textbooks!" -- when the actual story more complex and not nearly as incendiary.

QV

Achán hiNidráne

9th February 2011, 03:49 PM

What does that mean, exactly?

It means that USEagle13 is as jingoistsic as he is willfully ignorant of history or science. Apple pie recipes date back to Medieval England (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_pie#The_English_pudding). The next thing you'll know, he'll claim crepe suzette or sashimi to be American inventions as well.

In juxtaposing the two quotes, does the second mean that only southerners are 'real' Americans? :confused:

If so, I hope that some foreign power, espeically the PRC*, nukes the U.S. into oblivion.

*Not that I condone the Chinese government or its policies. I just think America being wiped out by the "commies" would be the ultimate justice for the right-wing, redneck, trailer-trash who are turning this country into a coporation-run, mega-chruch.

bikerdruid

9th February 2011, 04:42 PM

I just think America being wiped out by the "commies" would be the ultimate justice for the right-wing, redneck, trailer-trash who are turning this country into a coporation-run, mega-chruch.]

excellent footnote.

Vortigern99

10th February 2011, 05:49 AM

What a load of polemic, hate-filled, off-topic, pseudo-skeptical hogwash.

It means that USEagle13 is as jingoistsic as he is willfully ignorant of history or science. Apple pie recipes date back to Medieval England (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_pie#The_English_pudding). The next thing you'll know, he'll claim crepe suzette or sashimi to be American inventions as well.

If so, I hope that some foreign power, espeically the PRC*, nukes the U.S. into oblivion.

*Not that I condone the Chinese government or its policies. I just think America being wiped out by the "commies" would be the ultimate justice for the right-wing, redneck, trailer-trash who are turning this country into a coporation-run, mega-chruch.

rwguinn

10th February 2011, 08:16 AM

What bothers me most about the situation is that the Legislature is trying to make up 40% of the $25 billion total shortfall out of the Education Budget

fishbob

10th February 2011, 01:48 PM

From a Perry speech about education:

Well, there is a lot of fat to cut from our public schools, especially those in our biggest urban areas like Houston and Dallas. I am concerned that some the highly diverse Magnet public schools in this city are becoming hotbeds for liberalism. Do we really need free school bus service, Black History Month, Hispanic Heritage Month, Asian-Pacific Heritage Month, ESL, special needs and enrichment programs like music, art or math Olympiad? I think we should get back to the basics of the three Rs, reading writing and arithmetic. I mean when is the last time a 6th grade science fair project yielded a cure for a disease?

I live in Alaska. My sister lives in Texas. For the last five years we have held a very competitive "My governor is stupider than your governor" contest. I was doing quite well for a while, then mine quit. Now I am trounced, the contest is over, she has won.

ETA: Saw Perry on the Daily Show a couple of months ago. He said even stupider stuff to Jon Stewart - and Stewart passed up several really easy shots - they weren't necessary.

Teemu

12th February 2011, 02:30 AM

Teemu

12th February 2011, 09:05 AM

It's a cherry picked bit of data for the only subject/grade that Texas was significantly above the national average in 2009. For everything else I saw they were around the national average.

It's also a really annoying website, but that's just my opinion.

The children of those immigrants who don't have college education, are inevitably going to do a lot worse than the national average. So the best way to compare states is to read that map ethnicity by ethnicity to make that effect smaller.

8th grade math:
White: 4th in nation
Black: Shared 1st with MA
Hispanic: 1st

8th grade science:
White: Shared 1st with MA
Black: 6-7th (shared third if you don't include few West/Rocky Mountains with relatively very low black population)
Hispanic: Shared 4th (Montana's Hispanics won)

hud

12th February 2011, 09:23 AM

I live in Alaska. My sister lives in Texas. For the last five years we have held a very competitive "My governor is stupider than your governor" contest. I was doing quite well for a while, then mine quit. Now I am trounced, the contest is over, she has won.

ETA: Saw Perry on the Daily Show a couple of months ago. He said even stupider stuff to Jon Stewart - and Stewart passed up several really easy shots - they weren't necessary.

Since we now have a newly minted, stupid, teabagger Governor here in Florida can we get in on that contest?

Oh yeah, his just released budget proposal cuts per-student spending by 10%...

Why do the teabaggers hate our kids so much? (a silly generalization I know, but still, they either hate the kids or the teachers it seems)

Teemu

12th February 2011, 09:46 AM

Since we now have a newly minted, stupid, teabagger Governor here in Florida can we get in on that contest?

Oh yeah, his just released budget proposal cuts per-student spending by 10%...

Why do the teabaggers hate our kids so much? (a silly generalization I know, but still, they either hate the kids or the teachers it seems)

You could easily do probably with even -20% if you teacher's unions and Democrats trying to please them, would allow same level of school choice and teacher accountability that other developed countries have. Also halving the need for lawyers by tax and tort reform couldn't hurt the availability of talent for teaching. Only "developed" country that has similar amount of lawyers compared to population is Greece, and they also have worst education system of OECD countries.

hud

12th February 2011, 09:50 AM

You could easily do probably with even -20% if you teacher's unions and Democrats trying to please them, would allow same level of school choice and teacher accountability that other developed countries have. Also halving the need for lawyers by tax and tort reform couldn't hurt the availability of talent for teaching. Only "developed" country that has similar amount of lawyers compared to population is Greece, and they also have worst education system of OECD countries.

Interesting idea but that same teabagger Governor is also a lawyer. I don't think he's going to get too serious about anti-lawyer legislation...

elbe

12th February 2011, 05:19 PM

The children of those immigrants who don't have college education, are inevitably going to do a lot worse than the national average.

Are they? I've heard that uneducated immigrants can push their children harder to do better in school.

Texas isn't the worst in the country for education, but news coming out of the state makes me worry about the future of its educational system. Even then, most of the criteria put it on par with the national average but America is doing pretty badly on an international comparison.

Teemu

12th February 2011, 07:36 PM

Are they? I've heard that uneducated immigrants can push their children harder to do better in school.

Mean gap between 1st and 2nd generation non-White immigrants and "native" population is about 20 in favor of "native" population in PISA results
newgeography.com/content/001955-the-amazing-truth-about-pisa-scores-usa-beats-western-europe-ties-with-asia
Since that includes children of non-whites who got visa/green card due to their engineering/science education, the children of those who don't have college education are likely to do slightly worse than that 20 point gap. I don't know if they push their kids to do better harder, but apparently it is not enough to compromise inability to participate in and discuss about school subjects with their kids, and children are usually more likely to do what you do, rather than what you say.

King of the Americas

17th February 2011, 08:48 AM

I met with my favorite college professor yesterday, and among other things, I asked her what I should write about on my blog this week.

She proceeded to tell me just how bad Texas is in education. I spent the morning researching this:

Thursday, February 17, 2011

Educational Spending and Ranked Results
"We spend too much money on education administration."

On the contrary, we rank 37th in the world, in percentage of GDP spent on education. The result is that our students are well behind the rest of the world in both performance and ability. In fact, depending on which website you look at, there are some 15-30 countries that score better than the U.S. American students are failing to compete with students from other countries that spend almost twice the amount that we do on education. Surprise!

The State of Texas is facing a $15 billion revenue shortfall, due in part from a drop in sales tax revenue and federal mandates on Medicaid spending. Because Texas operates on a balanced budget amendment, the revenue shortfall demands either an increase in the tax rate or budget cuts. Given Texas rates 49th in verbal SAT scores and 43rd in math, nationally speaking, guess which way Texas Conservatives went? That's right, regardless of our already winning the race to the bottom, Texas Republicans want to spend even less, wholly the ignoring the fact that Texas ranks 6th in student population growth.

Texas high schools see 68% of their students graduate, ranking it 36th among other states. The Texas school system is literally failing students and taxpayers, is at the bottom of the heap nation-wide, and is one of the driving forces pushing America well behind the rest of the world. Rather than raise taxes to maintain this already subpar standing, Texas legislators are cutting educational spending by $5 billion.

Texas leads the nation and the world in a race to the bottom of high school student performances.

All this because Conservative Republicans fail to understand that there is a direct correlation between how much money a nation spends and the quality of services it provides. Tax cuts hurt student performance, period.

From: http://betterliberalarguments.blogspot.com

Vortigern99

17th February 2011, 10:18 AM

Ouch. Far be it from me to make sweeping generalizations, but it occurs to me that Texas conservatives, who are by and large wealthy or at least financially well-off, have little concern for the drop in state funding for public education because either:

1) their children attend private schools; or
2) their children attend well-funded public schools in financially secure neighborhoods --

neither of which will be hit by budget cuts.

Why should conservatives care if the poorer schools close and/or lose teachers? It doesn't affect them a whit.

Rant over. I angry. :mad:

rwguinn

17th February 2011, 11:15 AM

Ouch. Far be it from me to make sweeping generalizations, but it occurs to me that Texas conservatives, who are by and large wealthy or at least financially well-off, have little concern for the drop in state funding for public education because either:

1) their children attend private schools; or

Evidence?
2) their children attend well-funded public schools in financially secure neighborhoods --
evidence?
neither of which will be hit by budget cuts.
so wrong it doesn't even register...
(also, see "Robin Hood")
Why should conservatives care if the poorer schools close and/or lose teachers? It doesn't affect them a whit.

Rant over. I angry. :mad:Good.
Now, get informed if you would like us to take you seriously

Vortigern99

17th February 2011, 11:47 AM

You can disagree all you like. Thanks for chiming in.

rwguinn

17th February 2011, 11:51 AM

You can disagree all you like. Thanks for chiming in.
http://soc.hfac.uh.edu/artman/publish/article_137.shtml

Vortigern99

17th February 2011, 11:56 AM

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,52076,00.html

Take your children out of public schools.

That's what James Dobson, founder of the conservative Christian organization Focus on the Family, told more than five million American listeners in a March 28 broadcast of his daily radio show.

"In the state of California ... I wouldn't put [a] youngster in a public school," Dobson bluntly stated. His words sparked a campaign that reveals the extent of parental discontent with public schools.

Why are they discontented? Some parents worry about the lack of religious or "moral" values; other parents point to low academic standards or bias against male students. (Dobson objected to "homosexual propaganda" that teaches, for example, that "bisexuality is normal.")

The common denominator is that parents wish to choose the values and standards by which their children are educated.

The campaign against public schools snowballed April 9 when the popular radio personality Dr. Laura Schlessinger declared, "I stand with Dr. James Dobson." Indeed, Dr. Laura did not restrict her comments to California.

Vortigern99

17th February 2011, 12:04 PM

http://soc.hfac.uh.edu/artman/publish/article_137.shtml

Thank you for the link and the information. As a public school teacher in Austin, I'm aware of Robin Hood and how it generally works. But I appreciate being apprised of the specifics, so again, thank you.

What that article neglects to mention is that each school also has a separate fund, drawn from local contributions and other sources of revenue. Above and beyond the state-wide redistribution of finances, the fact remains that wealthier districts have greater access to funding.

I'll try to find a source for this. It's not something that is well-advertised; I myself was unaware of this until i started working for AISD.

Vortigern99

17th February 2011, 12:15 PM

I might have said that conservative parents tends to send their children to private schools and/or to home-school them:

http://gaither.wordpress.com/2009/08/31/why-parents-choose-cybercharter-schools/

But why are so many parents choosing this model of education for their children? The authors especially wonder why homeschoolers, who tend to be conservative, would be on the forefront of this radical educational experiment. To answer the question of why conservative homeschoolers are choosing cybercharters, the authors interviewed seven mothers whose children are enrolled in the Pennsylvania Virtual Charter School (PAVCS), which uses the K12 curriculum.

They found that parents have three main motivations for enrolling their children in cyber charters. First, parents love the individual tailoring and easy communication with teachers that the online environment allows. Second, free curriculum, computer, and stipend for internet hook-up is an obvious incentive. Third, the switch to online education was a gesture of optimism and hope for their children and, by extension, for the world, made by a group of people who in general are very down on government and bureaucracies like public schools.

rwguinn

17th February 2011, 12:15 PM

The biggest problem is that there is no official mechanism for funding schools other than the property tax.
When foreclosures are as high as they are, and home ownership in jeopardy (there are 12 houses for sale within sight of my garage (that I know of)), funding takes a hit.
From my reading, the Texas deficit is around 33 billion. The idiots in Austin want to take 33% of it from education.
I would start with TXDoT, myself...

Vortigern99

17th February 2011, 12:18 PM

http://www.thelandofthefree.net/conservativeopinion/2008/04/26/3913/

Parents - Do You Want A Dumb, Illiterate Child? Keep Them In Public School

As long as public schools are run by government and their educrats, they will never change. In my book, “Public Schools, Public Menace,” I tell parents about wonderful new education alternatives to public schools, such as accredited, low-cost internet private schools. Parents, I urge you to look into these alternatives, before your children are irreparably harmed by public-school whole-language, anti-phonics, “reading” instruction.

Vortigern99

17th February 2011, 12:31 PM

http://en.wordpress.com/tag/conservative-parenting-parents-and-grandparents-against-socialist-public-school-curriculum/

http://www.usatoday.com/news/religion/2006-09-02-evangelicals-schools_x.htm

Evangelicals intensify calls for parents to pull kids from public schools
Posted 9/2/2006 5:30 PM ET
NEW YORK (AP) — Public schools take a lot of criticism, but a growing, loosely organized movement is now moving from harsh words to action — with parents taking their own children out of public schools and exhorting other families to do the same.

http://www.jewsonfirst.org/06bprint/public096p.html

Home-schoolers pressing conservative denominations to leave public schools making headway among Southern Baptists

June 18, 2006

For the past three years, [Moore] has lobbied religious groups to call for an exodus from the public school system and has made headway with the Free Methodists, the Assemblies of God and the Presbyterian Church in America, all conservative denominations. His most notable success so far has come out of his work with the Southern Baptist Convention, the country's largest Protestant denomination.

Rwguinn, do you need more evidence to support my contention that conservative parents who are wealthy tend to send their children to private schools and/or home-school them? Or can we move on?

rwguinn

17th February 2011, 12:39 PM

http://en.wordpress.com/tag/conservative-parenting-parents-and-grandparents-against-socialist-public-school-curriculum/

http://www.usatoday.com/news/religion/2006-09-02-evangelicals-schools_x.htm
Evangelicals intensify calls for parents to pull kids from public schools
Posted 9/2/2006 5:30 PM ET
NEW YORK (AP) — Public schools take a lot of criticism, but a growing, loosely organized movement is now moving from harsh words to action — with parents taking their own children out of public schools and exhorting other families to do the same.http://www.jewsonfirst.org/06bprint/public096p.html
Home-schoolers pressing conservative denominations to leave public schools making headway among Southern Baptists

June 18, 2006

For the past three years, [Moore] has lobbied religious groups to call for an exodus from the public school system and has made headway with the Free Methodists, the Assemblies of God and the Presbyterian Church in America, all conservative denominations. His most notable success so far has come out of his work with the Southern Baptist Convention, the country's largest Protestant denomination. Rwguinn, do you need more evidence to support my contention that conservative parents who are wealthy tend to send their children to private schools and/or home-school them? Or can we move on?
Conservative != religious.
Wanna go grind that axe against someone else?

Vortigern99

17th February 2011, 12:47 PM

Straw man much? Where did I say that conservative=religious? The last article clearly makes the distinction: "For the past three years, [Moore] has lobbied religious groups to call for an exodus from the public school system and has made headway with the Free Methodists, the Assemblies of God and the Presbyterian Church in America, all conservative denominations."

Meanwhile, where is your evidence that evangelicals are socially or politically liberal? If that is indeed your contention -- and if not, then exactly what point are you trying to make here?

My "axe to grind" is against conservative legislators and BoE members who support deep cuts in Texas education, which is what this thread is about. You are the one arguing with me about it; against whom do you suggest I "grind that axe" instead?

Malachi Constant

17th February 2011, 08:17 PM

As someone who's going to be a science teacher in Texas in a few years I wish you'd stop hammering me over the head with all your darn facts.

Well, technically I wish they weren't true. I'd like to have a job when I graduate.

On the plus side I interviewed a local high school (2000+ students) biology teacher today and he straight up teaches evolution, and the administration has his back. It's one of two science class choices required for Freshmen, too.

There is a good science education to be had in Texas despite the efforts of our school board, just not everywhere.

Teemu

18th February 2011, 12:44 AM

I

On the contrary, we rank 37th in the world, in percentage of GDP spent on education. The result is that our students are well behind the rest of the world in both performance and ability.

Only 7 or so of those that spend more compared to GDP are developed countries, and most of the developed ones don't use much more compared to USA. Australia which did better in PISA than USA is ranked 58th. And South Korea which ranked 2nd in PISA, 1st if you only take into account countries, not Shanghai, ranks of 78th in education as % of GDP.
nationmaster.com/graph/edu_edu_spe-education-spending-of-gdp

Teemu

18th February 2011, 01:01 AM

My "axe to grind" is against conservative legislators and BoE members who support deep cuts in Texas education, which is what this thread is about. You are the one arguing with me about it; against whom do you suggest I "grind that axe" instead?

Against libs who are responsible for the inefficiency festering monopoly? In 2010 average Catholic Highschool spent $8,182 per pupil whereas average public school spent $10,614 per pubil. Now if you adjusted the fact that Catholic schools need certain population density so that there is actually enough customers, so if you compared them to more urban schools, the cost difference would be probably in $3-4k range.

King of the Americas

18th February 2011, 04:50 AM

Against libs who are responsible for the inefficiency festering monopoly? In 2010 average Catholic Highschool spent $8,182 per pupil whereas average public school spent $10,614 per pubil. Now if you adjusted the fact that Catholic schools need certain population density so that there is actually enough customers, so if you compared them to more urban schools, the cost difference would be probably in $3-4k range.

Both of those numbers are still well behind what other leading nations spend per student, and the result is that American students aren't measuring up.

We spend about 5.7% of our GDP educating our youth, while the leading nations are spending almost twice that.

Simply put, you get what you pay for.

I live in a town with about 2500 people, and we have 2 high schools. One is a public institution, the other is a private Catholic institution. One offers more sports and elective courses. Guess which it is?

King of the Americas

18th February 2011, 06:21 AM

Only 7 or so of those that spend more compared to GDP are developed countries, and most of the developed ones don't use much more compared to USA. Australia which did better in PISA than USA is ranked 58th. And South Korea which ranked 2nd in PISA, 1st if you only take into account countries, not Shanghai, ranks of 78th in education as % of GDP.
nationmaster.com/graph/edu_edu_spe-education-spending-of-gdp

I'm sorry, but I don't fully understand your point.

What does "PISA" stand for?

Are you suggesting there is no correlation between spending and results, when it comes to education?

rwguinn

18th February 2011, 07:16 AM

Both of those numbers are still well behind what other leading nations spend per student, and the result is that American students aren't measuring up.

We spend about 5.7% of our GDP educating our youth, while the leading nations are spending almost twice that.

Simply put, you get what you pay for.

I live in a town with about 2500 people, and we have 2 high schools. One is a public institution, the other is a private Catholic institution. One offers more sports and elective courses. Guess which it is?
And the other "leading Nations"-do they require attempting to educate ALL comers for 12 years? and are ALL children/young adults between the ages of 5 and 19 tested and results reported in these "We're 37th in the world" reports, as they are in the US?
Let's compare apples and apples, please...

Teemu

18th February 2011, 07:34 AM

I'm sorry, but I don't fully understand your point.

What does "PISA" stand for?

Are you suggesting there is no correlation between spending and results, when it comes to education?

The OECD Programme for International Student Assessment (PISA), it ranks countries in reading, math and science.

oecd.org/dataoecd/54/12/46643496.pdf

According to some estimates about 2/3 goes into bureucracy in some states rather than in class rooms.

mackinac.org/5982

Like I already said earlier in this thread: How do you fix inefficient monopoly? By breaking it up.

King of the Americas

18th February 2011, 08:03 AM

And the other "leading Nations"-do they require attempting to educate ALL comers for 12 years? and are ALL children/young adults between the ages of 5 and 19 tested and results reported in these "We're 37th in the world" reports, as they are in the US?
Let's compare apples and apples, please...

Okay, let's compare Texas to every other state...

LarianLeQuella

18th February 2011, 08:38 AM

Okay, let's compare Texas to every other state...

Do you really want to embarass them like that? :p

Texas is #49 in verbal SAT scores in the nation (493) and #46 in average math SAT scores (502).

Texas is #36 in the nation in high school graduation rates (68%). (If you factor in all the adults in Texas, then the High School diploma rate ranks them 51st in the nation [which includes Washington DC], but that has a bit to do with immigrants without a HS diploma, so we'll let them claw up to 36th of people who attempt to get a diploma.)

King of the Americas

18th February 2011, 08:49 AM

Do you really want to embarass them like that? :p

Texas is #49 in verbal SAT scores in the nation (493) and #46 in average math SAT scores (502).

Texas is #36 in the nation in high school graduation rates (68%). (If you factor in all the adults in Texas, then the High School diploma rate ranks them 51st in the nation [which includes Washington DC], but that has a bit to do with immigrants without a HS diploma, so we'll let them claw up to 36th of people who attempt to get a diploma.)

I stated those number myself, I KNOW how poorly we educate our children. We ALSO spend much less than most, and would rather pay to jail and house them later...

Which is my point, you get what you pay for.

Teemu

18th February 2011, 11:00 AM

Do you really want to embarass them like that? :p

Texas is #49 in verbal SAT scores in the nation (493) and #46 in average math SAT scores (502).

Texas is #36 in the nation in high school graduation rates (68%). (If you factor in all the adults in Texas, then the High School diploma rate ranks them 51st in the nation [which includes Washington DC], but that has a bit to do with immigrants without a HS diploma, so we'll let them claw up to 36th of people who attempt to get a diploma.)

It is inevitable that children of illegal immigrants or other low-educated immigrants are going to do much worse by average than national average. Texas did just fine when you looked 8th grade state level result ethnicity by ethnicity to lessen the effect of illegal immigrants.

Dr. Keith

18th February 2011, 11:11 AM

Against libs who are responsible for the inefficiency festering monopoly? In 2010 average Catholic Highschool spent $8,182 per pupil whereas average public school spent $10,614 per pubil. Now if you adjusted the fact that Catholic schools need certain population density so that there is actually enough customers, so if you compared them to more urban schools, the cost difference would be probably in $3-4k range.

I'm not sure how the monopoly works in your sample area, but in our area the Catholic school gets to pick their students and kick out those that don't conform, keep up, or toe the line in any way. This certainly cuts down on costs.

If you can show me a comparison between a public school system and a private school system that takes all students, then we can start to compare numbers.

Teemu

18th February 2011, 11:13 AM

Dr. Keith

18th February 2011, 11:14 AM

It is inevitable that children of illegal immigrants or other low-educated immigrants are going to do much worse by average than national average. Texas did just fine when you looked 8th grade state level result ethnicity by ethnicity to lessen the effect of illegal immigrants.

Is Texas the only state with low-educated immigrant populations?

Are you comparing our non-immigrant population to the averages of other states?

It seems that every state has a lower class, some defined by race, others by geography or history. Either way, to compare one state's sub-pops to another state's average is not very meaningful. If you were in fact comparing sub-pops, then that may have some meaning, assuming we only want a system that teaches those who are already pre-disposed to be successful.

Dr. Keith

18th February 2011, 11:16 AM

Teemu

18th February 2011, 11:30 AM

I'm not sure how the monopoly works in your sample area, but in our area the Catholic school gets to pick their students and kick out those that don't conform, keep up, or toe the line in any way. This certainly cuts down on costs.

Some Catholic schools have special needs programs. When it comes to trouble makers, all schools should go more aggressively after them. Most people are not trouble makers, or don't make trouble unless certain amount of other people are doing that. So you need to contain, kick out or something those who start trouble making.

King of the Americas

18th February 2011, 12:54 PM

It is inevitable that children of illegal immigrants or other low-educated immigrants are going to do much worse by average than national average. Texas did just fine when you looked 8th grade state level result ethnicity by ethnicity to lessen the effect of illegal immigrants.

Ah, but those immigrants AREN'T the ones taking SAT's...

By the time you are taking those the system either has or has not 'taught' you what you need to know. 49th in verbal & 46th in math.

The SAT's are usually taken your Junior or Senior year, and are usually taken by college hopefuls.

King of the Americas

18th February 2011, 01:00 PM

I'm not sure how the monopoly works in your sample area, but in our area the Catholic school gets to pick their students and kick out those that don't conform, keep up, or toe the line in any way. This certainly cuts down on costs.

If you can show me a comparison between a public school system and a private school system that takes all students, then we can start to compare numbers.

VERY good point.

When I was still in high school, the kids who came in from the Catholic school were always behind us at the public school. A "C" student at public could go across the street and make A's & B's.

Dr. Keith

18th February 2011, 01:01 PM

Some Catholic schools have special needs programs.

And those schools will have higher per student spending, I assume. Well at least until you can show me otherwise.

Further, some special needs programs does not mean the same as taking all students. Public schools have to accomodate a very wide range of needs as compared to private schools.

When it comes to trouble makers, all schools should go more aggressively after them. Most people are not trouble makers, or don't make trouble unless certain amount of other people are doing that. So you need to contain, kick out or something those who start trouble making.

Yes, unless you are a private school, in which case you can just kick them out. That is kinda the whole point of my post: "contain or something" is far more expensive than "kicking out."

We expect more from our public school systems and they tend to deliver some rather spectacular results with students that wouldn't make it in the front door of most private schools. Some of these kids will never be productive members of our society, but we can make their lives better and reduce their burden on society by providing a good education.

Unless the GOP decides that special needs = whiners and just starts cutting willy nilly.

King of the Americas

18th February 2011, 01:10 PM

uruk

24th February 2011, 02:44 PM

Also USA should dump this PC idea that everybody should go to senior high and college. In most other countries the higher graduation rate is helped by the fact that people can choose between senior high or vocational training or other stuff. In Finland around 40% do not go to senior high and take some alternative path.

I am all for the vocational route. The main issue there is that the type of jobs in this country that accept the lower level of education are usually farmed out to illegal aliens or out sourced to other countries.

I teach technology at a community college. My department produces computer technicians and IT specialists. We have to have our students go through remedial math and communication in order to be suitable for that job market.

And to reiterate what King of the Americas said. Most of these programs are being closed due to budget cuts. Our college is closing the Precision Manufacturing, HVAC, and even CAD and Architecture programs.

A side note is that in the Texas legislature there are lobbiests for Texas universites that are fighting to have community colleges and vocational schools defunded so that there would be more money for the universities.

Four community colleges have already closed thier doors in the state of Texas.* (edited to add Sorry, that should be that the proposed Texas budget will call for four Community colleges to shut down)

So much for the vocational route.