birth order, personality

[Rrose Selavy]

Well having just come across this (I know it's the Daily Mail) A psychologist plugs their new book on supposed birth order on personality.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1351567/First-born-Piggy-middle-Or-baby-How-place-family-rules-life.html

The above reads like a load of vague Barnum statements, so I'm sceptical and so is the Wiki article
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birth_order

Tried searching here on the forum and the search is useless for "birth order" , surprised if it hasn't been covered in a thread.
Anyway any thoughts on the issue, other than anecdotes like "yeah that's me I'm a typical Aries/ youngest child " ?

EDIT: Sorry meant to post this in Skepticism , so please go there , unless the mods decide otherwise. I'll ask them to delete this dup.

[Rrose Selavy]

Well having just come across this (I know it's the Daily Mail) A "pop" psychologist plugs their new book on supposed birth order influence on personality.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1351567/First-born-Piggy-middle-Or-baby-How-place-family-rules-life.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1351567/First-born-Piggy-middle-Or-baby-How-place-family-rules-life.html)

I'm sceptical, the above reads like a load of vague Barnum statements, and so is the Wiki article
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birth_order (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birth_order)

Tried searching here on the forum and the search is useless for "birth order" , surprised if it hasn't been covered in a thread.
Anyway any thoughts on the issue?, other than anecdotes like "yeah that's me I'm a typical Aries/ youngest child " ?

[bokonon]

There are epigenetic effects which depend on birth order, usually to the detriment of those born later, and certainly the social environment into which younger children are born is different than the social environment into which older children are born. I doubt that any of this translates to statistically valid personality profiles.

Edit: I don't read Skepticism, so I guess that's all I'll have to say.

[I Ratant]

Middle child here, more tolerant than the ends.

[AnnoyingPony]

First child here, and I'm a borderline hermit.

[casebro]

Wasn't 'birth order' mentioned in one of the homosexuality threads? And wasn't it discredited?

[Professor Yaffle]

An article in Scientific American:

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=ruled-by-birth-order

[Fnord]

I pulled these out of the Scientific American (http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=ruled-by-birth-order) article:

2007 Norwegian epidemiologists Petter Kristensen and Tor Bjerkedal published work showing a small but reliable negative correlation between IQ and birth order: the more older siblings one has, the lower one’s IQ.
... the evidence seems to be shifting back in favor of our common intuition that our position in our family somehow affects who we become. The details, however, remain vague.
... and ...
It’s fine for scientists to say “more study is needed,” but we must find love, gain self-knowledge and parent children now.
The bottom line?

Actual cause-and-effect of birth order versus personality is not yet - or likely will never be - experimentally confirmed, although there seems to be a greater correlation between wealth, family size and relative success of offspring.

[I Ratant]

Middle child here, more tolerant than the ends.
.
And somewhat of a recluse.

[Beerina]

I pulled these out of the Scientific American (http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=ruled-by-birth-order) article:



... and ...

The bottom line?

Actual cause-and-effect of birth order versus personality is not yet - or likely will never be - experimentally confirmed, although there seems to be a greater correlation between wealth, family size and relative success of offspring.


The more kids, the stupider the average kid.
The higher in the birth order, the smarter.

This maxxes out at the oldest in a 2 child family with an age delta of 2 years 8 months. I rolled well. 2y8m26d

[23_Tauri]

2007 Norwegian epidemiologists Petter Kristensen and Tor Bjerkedal published work showing a small but reliable negative correlation between IQ and birth order: the more older siblings one has, the lower one’s IQ.
Me number six.
:(

[I Ratant]

One of my lady friends was well done the birth order in her family... 10th or so, and quite intelligent, personable, capable, and bipolar. :(

[lionking]

Well, we have five middle children, and they are all as different as chalk and cheese. And our seventh is showing signs of being the brightest of them all, closely followed by our sixth.

The model doesn't fit us.

[RayG]

The more kids, the stupider the average kid.
The higher in the birth order, the smarter.

Really? The youngest of our 11 children scored very high in reading comprehension/level when she started grade 4 at her new school. Highest in her class. She was reading at a grade 8 level and quite impressed her teacher.

Pretty smart kid, and we've treated her no differently than any of the other children in the family.

RayG

[lionking]

Really? The youngest of our 11 children scored very high in reading comprehension/level when she started grade 4 at her new school. Highest in her class. She was reading at a grade 8 level and quite impressed her teacher.

Pretty smart kid, and we've treated her no differently than any of the other children in the family.

RayG

Serious? You have 11 kids? I thought I was stupid.;)

[RayG]

Yup, all mine, no blended family, no adoptions. Six girls, five boys.

Still have nine of them living with me, so my grocery bill is enormous. :D

RayG

[lionking]

Yup, all mine, no blended family, no adoptions. Six girls, five boys.

Still have nine of them living with me, so my grocery bill is enormous. :D

RayG
Four girls, three boys for us, but only three left at home.

I've never had to worry about where my paycheck went.

[RayG]

HA!!! I can soooooo relate to what you're saying.

I spend so much time at the grocery store, the cashiers are starting to call me by my first name.

RayG

[Modified]

Well, we have five middle children, and they are all as different as chalk and cheese. And our seventh is showing signs of being the brightest of them all, closely followed by our sixth.

The model doesn't fit us.

Well, how strong is the correlation supposed to be? Not all that strong, I would guess.

[LTC8K6]

I'm number 7 and last and I am definitely not the one with the lowest IQ...

[I Ratant]

Yup, all mine, no blended family, no adoptions. Six girls, five boys.

Still have nine of them living with me, so my grocery bill is enormous. :D

RayG
.
At least you have a stay-at-home hobby. :p

[23_Tauri]

Logic would suggest to me that having older siblings was good for the developing brain. All those brothers and sisters with whom to play games, do homework and generally create a lively, stimulating environment. But the pop psychologists seem to be saying my hunch is wrong. :(

[ria_rokz]

Logic would suggest to me that having older siblings was good for the developing brain. All those brothers and sisters with whom to play games, do homework and generally create a lively, stimulating environment. But the pop psychologists seem to be saying my hunch is wrong. :(

I remember learning in a psych course I took that the studies find the opposite; the oldest child gets the most attention from adults, and generally has a higher IQ. Each proceeding child has a lower IQ. Of course, I don't know if this was bunk or what study they were talking about.

[lionking]

Logic would suggest to me that having older siblings was good for the developing brain. All those brothers and sisters with whom to play games, do homework and generally create a lively, stimulating environment. But the pop psychologists seem to be saying my hunch is wrong. :(

Not only do I think this, I've observed it.

[23_Tauri]

I remember learning in a psych course I took that the studies find the opposite; the oldest child gets the most attention from adults, and generally has a higher IQ. Each proceeding child has a lower IQ. Of course, I don't know if this was bunk or what study they were talking about.
There is a logic to that, but being a generalisation (if that's what it is, assuming that's what studies show) it doesn't take into account the great variation between family groups, for example families where the older siblings take on a quasi-guiding role, answering the constant 'why?' questions, helping with the homework, sharing chores and the like. I guess the great variation between families and different dynamics is why the correlation between IQ and birth order isn't that strong.

[23_Tauri]

Not only do I think this, I've observed it.
Me too. :)

[ria_rokz]

There is a logic to that, but being a generalisation (if that's what it is, assuming that's what studies show) it doesn't take into account the great variation between family groups, for example families where the older siblings take on a quasi-guiding role, answering the constant 'why?' questions, helping with the homework, sharing chores and the like. I guess the great variation between families and different dynamics is why the correlation between IQ and birth order isn't that strong.

There are definitely significant variations in dynamics, and you're right, I don't think the correlation is that strong. What you say sounds reasonable to me. I just wanted to offer a blurb on the explanation I'd been given (which I now realize is over ten years old... yikes!).

[Weak Kitten]

I am very nearly the exact opposite of their description of an only child. About the only things they got right was the interacting well with adults and not understanding some sibling-like interactions (like friendly teasing).

Wow, what do you know. People are individuals and about the only thing you can predict are those things they might learn directly from their environment (like not knowing how to deal with sibling-like behavior because you have never encountered it before).

[23_Tauri]

There are definitely significant variations in dynamics, and you're right, I don't think the correlation is that strong. What you say sounds reasonable to me. I just wanted to offer a blurb on the explanation I'd been given (which I now realize is over ten years old... yikes!).
And I'm glad you posted it ria, my response was not a criticism at all. :)

[ria_rokz]

And I'm glad you posted it ria, my response was not a criticism at all. :)

Don't worry, it didn't sound like one! :)

[Verde]

My older brother was stillborn. England, early 50s, not an uncommon event.

As far as I could tell, I was the replacement.

My younger brother was claimed to be a 'surprise', but has grown up to be a fine person.

The concept of birth-order comes up once in a while and I consider it to be poppycock.

V.

[I Ratant]

I am very nearly the exact opposite of their description of an only child. About the only things they got right was the interacting well with adults and not understanding some sibling-like interactions (like friendly teasing).

Wow, what do you know. People are individuals and about the only thing you can predict are those things they might learn directly from their environment (like not knowing how to deal with sibling-like behavior because you have never encountered it before).
.
Beating up on the younger brother is an educational experience, which comes in handy later in life.
AFROTC gym class... I'd put on the boxing gloves, and some subject would too...
A direct to the face past his guard, and we could spend the rest of the session playing at boxing. :)

[I Ratant]

One of my most treasured gal friends grew up hearing her parents tell her she was a "faux pas".
Led to a life of dissolution and degradation, until she straightened herself.
Supremely intelligent and personable... but her grand dad imprinted her with white supremacy, which really screwed her up.

[Dancing David]

The problem is that the metrics of personality are usually so bague as to be meaningless, too much cross categorization.

[Rolfe]

Something struck me when I was at school. It was the dimmer members of the class who had older siblings at the school. Then later, the siblnigs of the bright ones started showing up, among the junior intake.

I don't know whether these siblings were the dimmer members of their particular classes though.

Rolfe.

[Hitch]

I just glanced through the Daily Mail article, that's no more a scientific study than your average daily horoscope listing. Each birth order position has about 8 (sometimes contradictory) characteristics associated with it. Any given person checking how it relates to them is going to find a couple near matches and think there might be something to it. Of course, there's a couple more that completely miss the mark and a couple that don't seem to apply one way or the other, but that's boring and we don't think about those. All this is is another exercise in showing how you can write something that seems to apply to anyone. Like handing a classroom full of subjects identical "personalized" personality evaluations and getting most of them to agree it fits them.

[Rrose Selavy]

I just glanced through the Daily Mail article, that's no more a scientific study than your average daily horoscope listing. Each birth order position has about 8 (sometimes contradictory) characteristics associated with it. Any given person checking how it relates to them is going to find a couple near matches and think there might be something to it. Of course, there's a couple more that completely miss the mark and a couple that don't seem to apply one way or the other, but that's boring and we don't think about those. All this is is another exercise in showing how you can write something that seems to apply to anyone. Like handing a classroom full of subjects identical "personalized" personality evaluations and getting most of them to agree it fits them.


as I said in the OP - Barnum statements:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forer_effect

[Mr.D]

I remember learning in a psych course I took that the studies find the opposite; the oldest child gets the most attention from adults, and generally has a higher IQ. Each proceeding child has a lower IQ. Of course, I don't know if this was bunk or what study they were talking about.

Either way, one of these kids (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duggar_family#Children) is screwed!


On a more serious note: Are these studies about actual order of birth to a particular mother or about order of age of children in a family?

What I mean is: One could easily imagine a case where an infant, who is the firstborn to her biological mother is adopted into a family that already has several children.

In other words, are these studies more about possible biological differences with regard to how many children the biological mother has had or more about the sociology of eldest/youngest child etc?

[Rrose Selavy]

From what I understand , many of the same principles are still supposed to apply if you are adopted and take your place in a family as the youngest for example if any of it is to be believed.
Most seem to be about the relationship between a child and the rest of the family rather than any inherent genetic disposition. I do wonder as more children are born to an older mother ( I write as the youngest of three) whether something genetically determined is somehow subtlely altered or degraded in some way with each birth (eg the chances of a child with chromosome abnormalities such as Down's Syndrome are greater as the Mother gets older) .