[i]Enterprise[/i] sucks!

[davidhorman]

There's already a thread for sci-fi mistakes - this whole show should be listed. I've just sat through another episode in the vain hope that things might improve, but this show is a smear on everything Star Trek used to be - it even makes me pine for Voyager.

T'Pol is the most emotional Vulcan since Spock got those spore thingies. She even hopped in the sack with Trip - don't tell me that's logical.

Scott Bakula forgot how to act since he left Quantum Leap. And he says "ass" too much for a Starfleet officer.

Too much sex. Wouldn't be quite so bad but they try to disguise it by calling it "Vulcan neuropressure" or "a visit to the decon chamber."

There was bad "science" (by which I mean Star Trek science) in a recent episode - it was going to take longer to go through a spherical nebula at impulse than go around it at Warp 4. And it was a direct rip-off of a Voyager episode.

Even the episode titles are bad - we used to have "For the world is hollow and I have touched the sky", "The City on the Edge of Forever", "The Ensigns of Command", "Latent Image" - but apparently the Enterprise demographic can't handle metaphors, so we've got "Dessert Crossing" (in which they cross a dessert), "Hatchery" (in which they discover a hatchery), and "The Communicator" (where they have to recover a lost communicator).

What's with all the fighting? I know this is the "past", but hasn't anyone studied diplomacy? In a TNG rip-off episode, two of the crew get caught on a planet with no knowledge of other species. In TNG, Riker was rescued with careful diplomacy. In Entperprise, someone says "hang about, let's use that invisible shuttle we just happen to have and shoot everyone with phasers." Recently they even threw in a macho fist-fight between two crewmembers as a counterpoint to the girl-on-girl neuropressure session in the same episode.

And in this latest episode, Captain Archer got sprayed with some gunk and then started acting strangely. It took the crew 30 minutes to figure out there might be some kind of link between the two, by which time Archer had the MACOs putting the crew in detention. Now, do they get Phlox to order Archer to sickbay, a command structure the MACOs must surely be following? No, it's phasers and Vulcan nerve pinches.

I liked the first version of the theme song though :D

Rant over!

David

[Mark]

I don't think it's so bad (But then, I liked Voyager!). My main complaint is that it is set in the past, and we see way too many aliens who never appeared in the "future." It makes no sense...is there some sort of interstellar genocide going on?

IMO, they are missing too many opportunities to set up situations that we saw in TOS and Next Generation. In the other hand, I only watch about 1 out of 5 episodes, so maybe I'm missing a lot of stuff.

[Hexxenhammer]

I haven't watched much but some ep's are pretty good. Last week there was a ridiculous "western" episode that ended with a shootout between the marines and some cowboys. Very cool fight.

[Nyarlathotep]

There are some really sucky episodes, but I find thta there are enough good ones that I find it worthwhile to watch to try and catch the show every week. It has gotten better this last season imo.

[Marc]

I try to watch it regularly. It is not bad. Find it rather interesting to see a Trek ship that does not have any prime directive concerns, and can on occation cross the line that would be unheard of in the other series. For example when Archer threw that alien into an airlock and started decompression to make him talk.

I do agree they should do more setting up of things for the original series, rather than have this huge "expanse" and prelude to a future war in there, when there is no mention of it in any other series. Suppose they could worm their way out of it by destroying it retroactivly, so it never existed. Ahhh the problems of continuity.

[Mark]

Originally posted by Marc
Ahhh the problems of continuity.

That has always been Trek's downfall, IMO.

[Evolver]

And then there's that theme sung. UGH!

[Mark]

Originally posted by Evolver
And then there's that theme sung. UGH!

Well, I agree it is schmaltz. But it is pretty good schmaltz, I guess.

[Hexxenhammer]

Originally posted by Evolver
And then there's that theme sung. UGH! It's from the devil.

[Graham]

Originally posted by davidhorman

Even the episode titles are bad - we used to have "For the world is hollow and I have touched the sky", "The City on the Edge of Forever", "The Ensigns of Command", "Latent Image" - but apparently the Enterprise demographic can't handle metaphors, so we've got "Dessert Crossing" (in which they cross a dessert), "Hatchery" (in which they discover a hatchery), and "The Communicator" (where they have to recover a lost communicator).



No one should ever cross a dessert unprepared . . .

[Bluegill]

Originally posted by Graham


No one should ever cross a dessert unprepared . . .

Once when I was hiking in Baked Alaska, I was attacked by a chocolate mousse. Let me tell you, that was one forked up vacation.

[Evolver]

Originally posted by Bluegill


Once when I was hiking in Baked Alaska, I was attacked by a chocolate mousse. Let me tell you, that was one forked up vacation.

You're pudding us on, aren't you?


:p

[Peter Jenkins]

Originally posted by Bluegill


Once when I was hiking in Baked Alaska, I was attacked by a chocolate mousse. Let me tell you, that was one forked up vacation.
Sounds pretty scary. I'd have gone bananas
P

[Mark]

Originally posted by Peter Jenkins

Sounds pretty scary. I'd have gone bananas
P

Bananas are appealing...especially if you want to split.

[T'ai Chi]

I'm pretty pleased with it, but always like how the aliens are just basically humans with make up that all speak English, or speak English thanks to universal translaters. (how a translater can translate an alien race that no one has ever encountered before is a mystery to me)

[Fade]

Originally posted by Mark


That has always been Trek's downfall, IMO.

It doesn't make any sense, either.

The solution would be simple. Go to a trek convention. Find the geekiest person there. Hire him at minimum wage to read over scripts, and tell you if it presents a continuity problem. If it does, fix it.

Such basic, huge errors (such as Voyager returning with AMAZING FUTURE WEAPONRY AND SHIELDING) which is then not actually used by anybody is what turned me off of Trek completely. The current producers are just sucking on it's huge, money giving teet, without actually making quality TV.

[davidhorman]

such as Voyager returning with AMAZING FUTURE WEAPONRY AND SHIELDING) which is then not actually used by anybody

I think there might have been some kind of "it's specifically designed for Voyager" excuse - and if not, then the only place it could have been seen would be in Nemesis, as that's the only Star Trek that's been set after Voyager ended.

No one should ever cross a dessert unprepared . . .

Bah. I even thought about it. Yesterday it looked right, today it looks wrong. But I have no regrets.

David

[Mark]

Originally posted by Fade


It doesn't make any sense, either.

The solution would be simple. Go to a trek convention. Find the geekiest person there. Hire him at minimum wage to read over scripts, and tell you if it presents a continuity problem. If it does, fix it.



I have never been to a Trek convention...but I have a horrible feeling you are describing me. ;)

[Seismosaurus]

Enterprise is indeed pretty awful IMO.

The thing I find most bizzare is that it's so similar to the TNG era - virtually the only difference between an Enterprise script and a TNG script is that some of the terminology is slightly different. The type of stories told and the manner of telling them is almost identical.

Given that the whole idea of the show was to do Trek in a different way, this is quite bizzare. I can't imagine what they had in mind.

As for continuity, the odd wrong date is forgivable. But having Ferengi and Borg show up is stupid - what next, a Q episode?

[davidhorman]

I just saw the latest episode. T'Pol cried. What the hell is that about? She should be shunned by all the other Vulcans and made to live in a cave. With only a fur bikini to wear.

David

[Mark]

Originally posted by davidhorman
I just saw the latest episode. T'Pol cried. What the hell is that about? She should be shunned by all the other Vulcans and made to live in a cave. With only a fur bikini to wear.

David

I get to be the guard!!!!!

[alfaniner]

I agree about the episode titles. Only rarely has one caught my imagination.

The original version of the theme eventually grew on me quite a bit. The new version, ugh! Sounds like a "cover" version done by one of those K-Tel bands.

However, I'd like to invite people over to
Nitcentral (http://www.nitcentral.com/discus/)
for true nitpicking. The BBS style is different as all threads are "permanent", in that they are not chronological and don't get bumped. Personally I always use the Last Day button to see the recent replies. Be warned though -- many topics that could keep you busy for days!

BTW, I've also placed a plug for this site from time to time over there.

[Fade]

I think there might have been some kind of "it's specifically designed for Voyager" excuse -

No. Janeway came from the future on a little shuttle. They created the armor and weapons out of parts on Voyager to begin with. It's simply not feasible that this same technology couldn't have been used elsewhere.

and if not, then the only place it could have been seen would be in Nemesis, as that's the only Star Trek that's been set after Voyager ended.

I think all but "Generations" took place after Voyager returned. Voyager was like 2 later than the start of DS9, and I think they mentioned the Dominion war having been OVER in First Contact, and it being a year after the new ship was created.

[epepke]

Originally posted by davidhorman
I just saw the latest episode. T'Pol cried. What the hell is that about? She should be shunned by all the other Vulcans and made to live in a cave. With only a fur bikini to wear.

David

Spock was always emotional. However, it was the conflict between his emotions and his desire to suppress them that made him an interesting character. Leonard Nimoy played him well.

It seems to me that T'Pol could be an interesting character in the same way, showing an earlier stage of Vulcans controlling their emotions, if only the writing and acting were better.

[Marc]

Originally posted by Fade
I think all but "Generations" took place after Voyager returned. Voyager was like 2 later than the start of DS9, and I think they mentioned the Dominion war having been OVER in First Contact, and it being a year after the new ship was created.

Voyager was gone for years. (as many years as the series ran) So only Nemesis actually took place after Voyager got back. At the least it is the only one that made reference to it. Plus you have to figure the time it takes to anylize the technology without someone from the future helping. Then the time it would take to gather materials and retrofit each ship to make use of it.

[kedo1981]

Yes “Enterprise” do disappoint.
I was hoping that they would be a lot more “retro” star trek; and maybe explain the “klingon” labia on the forehead thing.
Also lets have some real SF writers do some guest (ghost) writing.

[Bottle or the Gun]

Originally posted by kedo1981
Yes “Enterprise” do disappoint.
I was hoping that they would be a lot more “retro” star trek; and maybe explain the “klingon” labia on the forehead thing.
Also lets have some real SF writers do some guest (ghost) writing.

One of the books talked about that. The Klingons that were to have contact with humans underwent surgery to lull them into a false sense of security.

[Mark]

Originally posted by Bottle or the Gun


One of the books talked about that. The Klingons that were to have contact with humans underwent surgery to lull them into a false sense of security.

Didn't that come up in one of the movies? Or in one of the series episodes?

[Bottle or the Gun]

Think so. Don't recall where.

The writer in me says it would have been better if they just said there was a sub-class of cannon-fodder they used for crappy border skirmishes (not worth the full might and attention of the empire) that were not really true Klingons but slaves and conquered races. Since they were a part of the empire they could call technically call themselves Klingons. The powerful warlords (Kang) would have undergone surgery to look lesss imposing and to fit in. Later on there could of been a purge of ethnic cleansing to get rid of or reduce in status anything not true Klingon (there's a good movie there, and relavent), which is why years later all you see are the bumpy-headed ones as warriors.

[Mark]

Originally posted by Bottle or the Gun
Think so. Don't recall where.

The writer in me says it would have been better if they just said there was a sub-class of cannon-fodder they used for crappy border skirmishes (not worth the full might and attention of the empire) that were not really true Klingons but slaves and conquered races. Since they were a part of the empire they could call technically call themselves Klingons. The powerful warlords (Kang) would have undergone surgery to look lesss imposing and to fit in. Later on there could of been a purge of ethnic cleansing to get rid of or reduce in status anything not true Klingon (there's a good movie there, and relavent), which is why years later all you see are the bumpy-headed ones as warriors.

You should write for Trek.

[Bottle or the Gun]

Thanks. I write for a hobby. If I did it for $$ I'd starve and then die.

I really enjoy SF and Horror. I'm upset that the best SF on TV is in car commercials and the movies are just teenage boobs with a trance soundtrack.

The problem with Enterprise is that it's written like a commitee is behind the camera. "OOhhh, demographics says show T'Pol in cut-offs! That's good for a point in Nebraska!"

The show has a great premise....send some newbies out into space full of governments that have relatively stable agreements and watch them unbalance things as they fumble around and accidentally build a human empire.

It's actually great to see the crew humming along, oblivious, crossing borders, upsetting apple-carts, turning over money-lender tables. My thought is that they so destabilized the region that humans had no choice but to take charge out of self-defense.

One of the background themes of all the series is that the newbies take over the entire galaxy in a century or two, as opposed to races that have been trying for thousands of centuries just to expand to the next planetary system. That theme runs in the show and in the real world.

[Bottle or the Gun]

Too much sex. Wouldn't be quite so bad but they try to disguise it by calling it "Vulcan neuropressure" or "a visit to the decon chamber."

Sure it was for ratings, but look at it this way: "It's my Vulcan neuropressure point and I'll wash it as often and as long as I want!"

[Marc]

Originally posted by Mark


Didn't that come up in one of the movies? Or in one of the series episodes?

It was brought up in an episode of DS9, where the crew ends up back in time. (they were digitally added to the original Trouble With Tribbles episode) At one point a waitress makes a comment about all the Klingons on board the station. Bashire and O'Brian both exclaim "Those are Klingons??", at which point the waitress cuts them off from any more drinks. :p They both turn to Worf who admits they are Klingons... but it is a subject they do not like to talk about.

I'm sure there are plenty of explinations given in various books, fan-fics, and the like. Another explination not given here is half-breeds.

[epepke]

Originally posted by kedo1981
Also lets have some real SF writers do some guest (ghost) writing.

This happens much less often due to legal reasons. Some of the good episodes of TOS started off as unsolicited submissions. Studios no longer even open these, for fear of being sued if there should be some common plot element.

Ironically, Harlan Ellison, who wrote a really good story for TOS, is partially responsible for this. He sued the producers of Terminator for plagiarism of his Twilight Zone episode "Soldier." About the only thing the two stories have in common is the fact that two warriors, one chasing the other, go back in time, which in the SF sense is a pretty piddling connection. Nevertheless, it was enough of a thorn in the studio's side that you'll see Ellison in the credits of Terminator.

[Bottle or the Gun]

Why didn't Paramount sue over the companies that made flip-open cell phones? Totally ripped off TOS communicators.

Before going into meetings my boss used to tell everyone to 'set your Nextels on stun' (vibe mode).

[epepke]

Originally posted by Bottle or the Gun
Why didn't Paramount sue over the companies that made flip-open cell phones? Totally ripped off TOS communicators.

Interesting question.

Bit of trivia here. The first season and a half of TOS by Desilu is not covered by copyright. Of course, all the reissues have been. But if one can find a tape or film from before then, it isn't copyrighted.

[(S)]

I actually like Enterprise more than any of the others [Mmmmm, heresy.] It is fundementally different from TOS and TNG in that it focuses on an ongoing plot; there will be stand-alone episodes, but in TOS and TNG they were essentially /all/ stand-alone, with a few two-parters and scattered story-archs they would pick up from time to time, but which they were under no obligation to complete. If TNG had just stopped showing Borg episodes at one point, nothing would really have changed. If Enterprise stops showing 'Weapon about to destroy earth' episodes, that's a bit different.

And on the theme, if you just listen to it fifty or a hundred times in a row, it'll start to grow on you. Really. And the twitching stops after the two hundredth time or so. [It's been a long road, gettin' from there to here ....]

[epepke]

Originally posted by (S)
I actually like Enterprise more than any of the others [Mmmmm, heresy.]

I like Enterprise, too. I do like the others, though, but it took two and one-half seasons for TNG to get interesting.

I especially like the artistic design. They had to make something that looked futuristic but at the same time more dated than TOS. So they have all this stainless steel and chrome and uniforms that vaguely invoke Forbidden Planet There always seems to be way too much junk around and way too many controls.

In that context, TOS can be seen as an advance, an application of Donald Norman-style minimalist design principles. You've got the engineering in Enterprise, where everything is practically hanging out, and the engineers have to run around to get anything done. Whereas in TOS, engineering is simple: a wall diagram with a few lights showing the system overall, and a few controls.

[davidhorman]

Some of the good episodes of TOS started off as unsolicited submissions.

Wasn't that the case for TNG too? And any of the others? I was under the impression that you could send off for a writer's guide to make sure your submission got read.

David (who quietly admits he has a couple of unwritten Voyager stories in his head)

[Hand Bent Spoon]

Yep, TNG took unsolicited submissions. Guess how Ron Moore broke into TV writing?

And yes, Enterprise is a huge dissappointment. I stopped watching in the middle of this season.

And they're turning T'pol into a crackwhore. Seriously.

And you know, you can put real sci-fi writers on your staff without them suing you. I've heard tell.

I love Enterprise's visuals, but hate it's nonvisual content. And I wouldn't mind continuity much if the show were only good.

[epepke]

Originally posted by davidhorman


Wasn't that the case for TNG too?

I think so, but after that it dried up.

As I recall, the first unsolicited script for TNG that actually made it was the one with the deaf guy who had a chorus and signed ASL.

[Sandy M]

Well, I've given Enterprise every chance, but it commits the unforgiveable sin of being BORING waaay too often.

And what happened to Scott Bakula's acting skills? He was charming and interesting in Quantum Leap. He is dull and uninteresting on Enterprise. The damn beagle shows more personality and Dr. Phlox is by far the most interesting character.

An ENOUGH with the Zindi already. It is an awful story line. I forgive the occasional "world like 1870s earth" stories. Those are traditional. "Hey, the budget's tight, let's do a western this week." But over-all, it's gotten progressively worse over the seasons.

As for T'pol....hey, Spock could be forgiven for lapses: He was half human, but she's supposedly "pure" Vulcan: She oughta have it under control by now!!

I thought the original storyline would be interesting, first encounters with races, situations, shown on TOS... and the Andorian stuff hasn't been bad, but the rest of it....... It's only bearable compared to the other stuff on tv, and if they're rerunning LOTR 1 or 2 at the same time as Enterprise, I'll opt for LOTR.

[ZeeGerman]

I get each Enterprise episode less than a week after it is aired in the US over here in Germany (on VCD, not exactly by legal means:D ). So I can watch them undubbed (they're airing the first episode dubbed to German right now). My wife and me watch them for nostalgic reasons mostly, we saw the start of TNG back in 93 when we lived for a while in Pittsburgh. We shared a house with a serious trekki so watching Enterprise somehow reminds us of the great time we had there. I liked TNG better (mostly for Stewart as Picard) except for all episodes featuring Wesley Crusher.

Zee

[Jaan]

Originally posted by T'ai Chi
I'm pretty pleased with it, but always like how the aliens are just basically humans with make up that all speak English, or speak English thanks to universal translaters. (how a translater can translate an alien race that no one has ever encountered before is a mystery to me) Dude, come on ... Kirk & Spock explained it in TOS (c:

http://www.ericweisstein.com/fun/startrek/Metamorphosis.html

Kirk: There are certain universal ideas and concepts common to all intelligent life. This device [the universal translator] instantaneously compares the frequency of brain wave patterns, selects those ideas and concepts it recognizes, and then provides the necessary grammar.
Spock Then it simply translates its findings into English.

[Jaan]

OKay ... the show's not too bad, but it's definitely not up to the standards of some of the better episodes of TOS and TNG, even DS9 had some gems. The only reason I watch it now is so I can say I've seen every single episode and movie from the entire Star Trek franchise (c:

I realized tonight while watching a time travel episode how uninspired it is. When Kirk, Spock and McCoy ended up in the 1930's (The City on the Edge of Forever) it created a story that you find yourself playing in your mind over and over (arguably the best episode of any Trek). Heck, even when Data met Mark Twain it was cool ... but tonight's episode was so blah. When I saw them steal a truck I couldn't help remember Kirk trying to drive an old Cadillac V12 with Spock, but alas, nothing close to that character interaction too place.

It doesn't seem like the creators listen to fans ... for one thing, T'Pol was originally going to be a young T'Pring (from TOS Amok Time). Fans were delighted and thought up all sorts of cool character development, but it was not meant to be. I don't mind so much that she gets a little emotional but it's over the top now. When Spock got emotional there was indeed a great sub plot to it, and who can forget when Spock was so happy to see Kirk alive he yelled out "JIM!" Nothing like that has happened in Enterprise to T'Pol. If you're going to give her emotions do something interesting with them. It's still not too late to create a plot where she changes her name to T'Pring and has to deal with her emotions etc. I can think of a dozen ways to do this. *sigh*

None of the stories seems particularly great sci fi, like the kind of stuff you read in books. It's still better than the first season of TNG, and better than Voyager but give us some mind blowing ... or at least interesting ... stuff. One episode of Voyager that comes to mind as being that good is the one where the doctor's back up program ended up on an alien planet and he was activated 400 years after the planet encountered Voyager. There is so much potential in Enterprise and it's sad that it's missed the mark.

Enough of that ... there has been some discussion about the forehead ridges that the Klingons have, or don't have. Here's how I know it. There was that great episode of DS9 called "Trials and Tribble-ations" where the crew went back in time to the Tribbles episode of TOS. In that episode they ask Worf about the ridges and he simply says "we don't talk about it". So I guess that's official canon. I did read in a ST book that the lack of ridges was a surgical modification to make them appear more human. For what it's worth, I remember a ST convention way back when the very first Klingons appeared in the movies with ridges and DeForest Kelley was asked that question. He said they happened because of the Tribbles ... which seems to fit into the DS9 episode. Perhaps those Klingons on the outer rim did not get infected yet in TOS. Tribbles are the sworn enemies of the Klingons after all ...

Now an interesting footnote. Three Klingons that appeared in TOS ... Kang (Michael Ansara), Kor (John Colicos) and Koloth (William Campbell) also appeared in the DS9 episode aptly (and perhaps uninspired) titled "Blood Oath". In that episode they had a blood oath that included Curzon Dax where they killed an albino Klingon. In TOS they did not have the ridges, and in the DS9 episode they did.

I gotta get some sleep before this gets REALLY long (c:

[Marc]

Did you see the new episode last night? Not the time-travel one, that was a repeat.

In the new episode the ship was taken over by religious fanatics. They did it by using themselves as suicide bombers, threatening to destroy the ship if it wasn't handed over to them. Their leader in a debate with T'Pol made comments on how science can lead people astray, and their faith is the way to the truth. They wanted to use the ship in their war with the heretics on their world.

These people worship the creaters of the spheres in the expanse, consider them holy. So they deleted all the info Enterprise had collected on them, and said by their faith they should execute all the crew for desecrating the spheres. But in a show of mercy for the kindness shown to them, the captain was allowed to pick one person to be killed. Archer picked himself, and requested he be executed using the execution machine they have on board, a disintigration unit (the transporter). hehehe

in an echo of TOS episode on war over stupid reasons, they finally got to the people's home world only to find it in ruins. Other than that I thought it was a good episode. Loved the showing of religious fanatics for what they are.

[Mark]

Originally posted by Jaan
It doesn't seem like the creators listen to fans ... for one thing, T'Pol was originally going to be a young T'Pring (from TOS Amok Time).
I gotta get some sleep before this gets REALLY long (c:

T'Pau.

T'Pring was Spock's arranged wife. But I agree, they should have left the character as T'Pau. Somebody said there were copyright issues, although that seems odd, since Paramount ultimately owns the franchise. I don't know.

[Psi Baba]

Originally posted by Marc
Did you see the new episode last night? Not the time-travel one, that was a repeat.

In the new episode the ship was taken over by religious fanatics. <snip>
That was a good episode; I liked that one. But it isn't new--it aired back in February. At least that's when I saw it.

[epepke]

Originally posted by Marc
In the new episode the ship was taken over by religious fanatics. They did it by using themselves as suicide bombers, threatening to destroy the ship if it wasn't handed over to them. Their leader in a debate with T'Pol made comments on how science can lead people astray, and their faith is the way to the truth. They wanted to use the ship in their war with the heretics on their world.

That very day, the Sci-Fi channel showed the episode "May that be Your Last Battlefield" or whatever it was. The one with Frank Gorshim and another guy with clown white on one side of their face and blackface on the other side. It was hard not to see that episode as a direct rip-off of the TOS one, only without the racial punch.

[Jaan]

Originally posted by epepke
That very day, the Sci-Fi channel showed the episode "May that be Your Last Battlefield" or whatever it was. The one with Frank Gorshim and another guy with clown white on one side of their face and blackface on the other side. It was hard not to see that episode as a direct rip-off of the TOS one, only without the racial punch. I see this whole season as a rip off of the events of 9/11.

[epepke]

Originally posted by Jaan
I see this whole season as a rip off of the events of 9/11.

Interesting perspective. Yes, the whole Zindi thing could be interpreted as a metaphor of 9/11. But the episode I pointed out could also be interpreted as a rip-off of the TOS episode, which happened long before, but which also could be interpreted as a metaphor of the racial strife going on in the US at the time.

Some of these metaphors are lasting; others aren't. I sat through the "Space Hippy" episode of TOS today. Nearly their worst, although the ultimate prize had to be for the time that Shatner tried to act like a woman, which ironically was the last episode.

Still, the Frank Gorshim episode still has meaning to me today. I was surprised to rediscover how many of the TOS episodes are really good and quite timeless. Will Enterprise survive the test of time and still be relevant thirty years from now? I don't know.

[Jaan]

Originally posted by epepke
Interesting perspective. Yes, the whole Zindi thing could be interpreted as a metaphor of 9/11. But the episode I pointed out could also be interpreted as a rip-off of the TOS episode, which happened long before, but which also could be interpreted as a metaphor of the racial strife going on in the US at the time.

Some of these metaphors are lasting; others aren't. I sat through the "Space Hippy" episode of TOS today. Nearly their worst, although the ultimate prize had to be for the time that Shatner tried to act like a woman, which ironically was the last episode.

Still, the Frank Gorshim episode still has meaning to me today. I was surprised to rediscover how many of the TOS episodes are really good and quite timeless. Will Enterprise survive the test of time and still be relevant thirty years from now? I don't know. I doubt it ... TOS, and quite a few of TNG had solid stand alone episodes. You didn't have to know the background (or watch 50 episodes) to get the story. When I watch repeats of DS9 and Voyager now, it's hard to place yourself in the story chronologically since so much of the back-story changed through the series.

I also think TOS and to some degree TNG took some serious risks with the stories and that is why some episodes are dreadful while others came out wonderfully. I mean, who can predict if an episode like TOS "The Devil in the Dark" or TNG "Ship in a Bottle" would be good or a stinker before it's filmed? I'll bet "The Trouble With Tribbles" was a huge risk.

Still though, when I watched the Enterprise episode with the crazy religious fanatics who use suicide bombers, it screamed to me "muslims". Towards the end I did think of " ... Last Battlefield", but that episode is a much stronger story. The first time you watch it you don't really know what's going on until Bele explains the "obvious" about Lokai. There was nothing like that in Enterprise. Frank Gorshin's performance was great as well (c:

The show needs to take chances but it doesn't look like it's going to happen ... what might happen is Kirk coming back for a "Very Special Episode"!

http://www.bringbackkirk.com/trailer.html

[Marc]

When I watch repeats of DS9 and Voyager now, it's hard to place yourself in the story chronologically since so much of the back-story changed through the series.

That is one of the things that kept me from watching Buffy. I didn't find out what a good show it was untill it had been on for a few years. By then there was so much story that it was very difficult to jump in, so I have been watching it on DVD only.

While an ongoing story makes it difficult to join up in the middle, I find it a strong point for a series and adds to the realism. Things are not static, people and events change. It actually goes somewhere as a series.

[Shadowhawk]

Originally posted by Marc
In the new episode the ship was taken over by religious fanatics. They did it by using themselves as suicide bombers, threatening to destroy the ship if it wasn't handed over to them.

Er, aren't there standing orders to destroy the ship rather than let it fall into enemy hands?

[epepke]

Originally posted by Jaan
Still though, when I watched the Enterprise episode with the crazy religious fanatics who use suicide bombers, it screamed to me "muslims".

Quite true.

For another perspective, consider most of DS9. It seemed to me fairly obvious that the Bajorans were supposed to be Palestinians, and the Cardassians were supposed to be Israelis. The local Cardassian spy was even a tailor, and that's about the most sterotypically Jewish trade I can think of.

It wasn't quite as clear as Klingon<->Soviet in TOS, but it was there.

Towards the end I did think of " ... Last Battlefield", but that episode is a much stronger story. The first time you watch it you don't really know what's going on until Bele explains the "obvious" about Lokai. There was nothing like that in Enterprise. Frank Gorshin's performance was great as well (c:

Agreed for both. It was far better scripted and far better acted. It even had the twist that "half-white" was the derrogatory term the dominant people applied to the subordinate people. Which can be interpreted in a variety of ways.

Of course, in TOS, the scripting and acting does seem a bit dated. This may not be such a bad thing, though. Perhaps modern acting has taken something away from storytelling.

Enterprise, I think, is still fun for its secondary characters.

Quite frankly, rather than this "expanse" story arc, I'd like to see more about how Earth built the United Federation of Planets. Since we already know that Vulcans had warp technology before humans, and we already know that Vulcan hadn't joined the UFP at the time of TOS, this could make for some interesting stories, about these human upstarts. I think this may have been something like what they originally had in mind, what with the Vulcans keeping humans back for a century, but the whole expanse thing was a ploy to save ratings.

[JamesM]

Originally posted by epepke
Interesting perspective. Yes, the whole Zindi thing could be interpreted as a metaphor of 9/11.
I read that the temporal cold war plot was 9-11 influenced (somehow - it's not immediately clear to me in what way) and that the lexicographical similarity between 'Suliban' and 'Taleban' was not coincidental.

[davidhorman]

I read that the temporal cold war plot was 9-11 influenced (somehow - it's not immediately clear to me in what way) and that the lexicographical similarity between 'Suliban' and 'Taleban' was not coincidental.

Although the first episode was aired a couple of weeks after 9/11, it was probably finished a few weeks before it aired, and written a good while before that.

I didn't know about the possible Israel/DS9 connection. In [i]Enterprise[i]'s case, though, the whole terrorism/WMD plot has been tacked on in a pretty naff and knee-jerky way.

David

[epepke]

Originally posted by davidhorman
I didn't know about the possible Israel/DS9 connection.

Interpreting drama is always tricky, but I've known other people to see it that way as well.

Besides what I mentioned, DS9 came out when pro-Palestinian sympathy was extremely trendy. The dress and sets and props and jewelry involved in the Bajoran religious rituals seem vaguely Arabic to me. There's the whole notion of an occupied people with a "holy land," i.e. the wormhole. There's the constant use of the word "prophet."

Cardassians aren't exactly cardboard cut-out Jews, but the tailor, besides being a tailor, seemed to me always to have a bit of a Shylock quality about him.

Of course, it could probably be compared to a hundred other conflicts during the course of history, but it seems to me that the Israeli/Palestinian conflict seems the most likely.

In Enterprise's case, though, the whole terrorism/WMD plot has been tacked on in a pretty naff and knee-jerky way.

True. I think that it was a deliberate attempt to try to jump-start the ratings, which had been pretty low.

[uruk]

Well they do seem to be spreading the Star trek franchise pretty thin these days.
Personly I like the new series. It's obviously aimed at an old audience than TNG. looking back at TNG, especially the first two seasons, the stories were a little simplistic and watered down. It waswnt untill the laste few seasons that the stories started to have some spice.

I particularly like the strained relationship between the humans and vulcans int his show. the Vulcan are more emotional maybe still working out the kinks in their expulsion techniques.
But some of the stuff going on in the series (language, semi-nudity) is obviously geard for ratings.

I keep hoping one day they would do a r-rated version of Star Trek (for content rather than T and A). But enjoy it now while it lasts, there will come a day when there will be no new Trek.

[JamesM]

Originally posted by epepke
Besides what I mentioned, DS9 came out when pro-Palestinian sympathy was extremely trendy.

I always thought there was some pretty heavy-handed Jew/Nazi stuff going on in there. That just goes to show. Er, something.

One thing I've never understood about Star Trek is its attitude to religion: 'conventional' Earth-based religion: bad! Religion on other planets: good, very good! And the more new age and ning-nang-nong the better!

[epepke]

Originally posted by JamesM
I always thought there was some pretty heavy-handed Jew/Nazi stuff going on in there. That just goes to show. Er, something.

Not necessarily contradictory. At the time DS9 came out, I heard quite a lot of assertions that the Israelis were the new Nazis.

One thing I've never understood about Star Trek is its attitude to religion: 'conventional' Earth-based religion: bad! Religion on other planets: good, very good! And the more new age and ning-nang-nong the better!

That's troubled me, too. Also Babylon 5, which much more frequently dealt with religion. There was always a schtick about how, as long as it was alien, it was great.

Just once I'd like to see a Mezuzah on the doorframe of somebody's quarters on a spaceship or space station.

[alfaniner]

Originally posted by Shadowhawk


Er, aren't there standing orders to destroy the ship rather than let it fall into enemy hands?

Mmm, probably not, or we'd most likely be on Enterprise-C7 (hexadecimal!) by the time TNG concluded.

[Seismosaurus]

Originally posted by JamesM


I always thought there was some pretty heavy-handed Jew/Nazi stuff going on in there. That just goes to show. Er, something.

One thing I've never understood about Star Trek is its attitude to religion: 'conventional' Earth-based religion: bad! Religion on other planets: good, very good! And the more new age and ning-nang-nong the better!

No no no! That's completely about face!

In Trek religion is almost wholly depicted as something the aliens have only because the aliens are less advanced and enlightened than the Humans.

How many times did Kirk come across simple native folk who worshipped some local deity? This was usually shown as having turned the locals into mindless automatons who did little for themselves. Kirk would invariably destroy said god and prove to the locals that their religion was utter nonsense and they should think for themselves.

Watch The Apple, watch Return of the Archons, watch For The World is Hollow and I Have Touched the Sky. Same plot every time, only the details change.

DS9 started out the same way. Yes the Bajorans are shown as being sympathetic characters, but don't forget that their religion is false! Their "celestial temple" is a wormhole and their "prophets" are aliens. And of course what the Bajorans have worshipped falsely for 10,000 years or more, the enlightened and rational science-minded Federation folk solve in something like 48 hours.

Of course later on the writers lost sight of this and started turning the aliens into real gods, but that's not how it started out!

And don't forget the Jem'Hadar - Founder relationship, a spectacular case of a religion which is patently false to everybody but the poor drug-addicted worshippers who are born and raised in it. You have to go into the real world to find a more cynical religion than that!

Voyager did the same thing a couple of times, most notably in Emanations, though it did fall down a few times later on as well.

[davidhorman]

but don't forget that their religion is false!

I wouldn't call it false because the prophets aren't Gods - surely that makes it more real than something, like, say Christianity (in my opinion). In fact, did the Bajorans worship them as Gods, or simply as, as they called them, prophets (which is accurate)?

And of course what the Bajorans have worshipped falsely for 10,000 years or more, the enlightened and rational science-minded Federation folk solve in something like 48 hours.

The wormhole aliens are prophetic, you can't deny that - they don't live in linear time. So I don't see that there was any "falseness" to Bajoran religion or that there was any hoax for the Federation to bust.

Of course later on the writers lost sight of this and started turning the aliens into real gods, but that's not how it started out!

I don't remember that happening...

David

[epepke]

Originally posted by davidhorman
I wouldn't call it false because the prophets aren't Gods - surely that makes it more real than something, like, say Christianity (in my opinion). In fact, did the Bajorans worship them as Gods, or simply as, as they called them, prophets (which is accurate)?

Also consider the episode where Sisko upbraids his son for calling it a dopey religion.

[Seismosaurus]

Originally posted by davidhorman


I wouldn't call it false because the prophets aren't Gods - surely that makes it more real than something, like, say Christianity (in my opinion). In fact, did the Bajorans worship them as Gods, or simply as, as they called them, prophets (which is accurate)?

The wormhole aliens are prophetic, you can't deny that - they don't live in linear time. So I don't see that there was any "falseness" to Bajoran religion or that there was any hoax for the Federation to bust.


The prophets are actually not just that to the Bajorans. The Bajorans pray to the prophets, hoping they will intervene in events for them. The only real difference between the way they treat the prophets and the way christians treat their gods is that the Bajorans don't claim that the prophets created the universe, at least as far as we know.

Sisko even states it directly in the episode Sacrifice of Angels - "You want to be gods? Then BE gods. Bajor needs a miracle, I need a miracle. Stop those ships!"

I don't remember that happening...


By the end of the last season we are being told that the whole of DS9 and Sisko's life have in fact been taking place according to the prophet's plan as part of a grand battle of good versus evil. Remember in the first episode they didn't even know that it was possible for a species to live in linear time! Considerable re-writing of the prophets went on over time.