Being a JEW - part 2

[Supercharts]

I am a Jew. Not by birth but by choice.
The entire Mid-East thing. If there were no Jews would it be so very different? No Israel?
Always - in the background - it's a Jew thing.
I am venting and I am angry. I'm a JEW.
What did we do to deserve this ********?

[corplinx]

Originally posted by Supercharts
What did we do to deserve this ********?

Obviously its the bagel that has the world upset. Its like eating play-doh.

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by Supercharts
I am a Jew. Not by birth but by choice.
The entire Mid-East thing. If there were no Jews would it be so very different? No Israel?
Always - in the background - it's a Jew thing.
I am venting and I am angry. I'm a JEW.
What did we do to deserve this ********?

It wouldn't matter what nation-state was put in place of the State of Israel. You could put Denmark in there and the Islamofascists would be blowing up them too with nail bombs.

I liked Israel. I spent some time living there. How did you become a Jew if you weren't born a Jew? Did you join a Jewish church?

JK

[corplinx]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight


I liked Israel. I spent some time living there. How did you become a Jew if you weren't born a Jew? Did you join a Jewish church?

JK

I guess he did the whole "ask the rabbi 3 times" thing.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Supercharts
I am a Jew. Not by birth but by choice.
The entire Mid-East thing. If there were no Jews would it be so very different? No Israel?
Always - in the background - it's a Jew thing.
I am venting and I am angry. I'm a JEW.
What did we do to deserve this ********?

If you read some history, the whole 'Jew' thing goes back two thousand years.

The irony is, just when the jews got sick of being kicked around, and europe finally seems to be prepared to accept them without blaming them for jesus being crucified, the zionist movement really gets going and they go out and start kicking around the arabs living in palestine.

Jews in other countries seem to be able to get on with their neighbours pretty well. If anything, it appears to be the extremists from the US, such as Kahane, who have really stirred up the pot.

As for the hypothetical question. It is impossible to answer. My guess is yes, but there won't ever be an answer.

[Richard G]

I am a Jew. Not by birth but by choice.

You have a fundamental problem with your statement. You may practice Judaic Christianity, thus making you Jewish (an adjective describing your adopted religion). But you are not ever truly a Jew. That is a race unto itself, and you can no more change your race than I can. You are NOT a Jew. You practice Judaism.

This is just a pet peave of mine. Pay no attention.

Ah, the Jewish people. Strong family structure, emphasis on education... which is why they make excellent doctors, lawyers, what-have-you. Great entertainers, funny as heck, beautiful women... fine people. What did Jews do to deserve this (forum-rule-breaking obscenity omitted)? What did the Palestinians do to deserve the hand they were dealt? Or were you referring to something else?

[Nikk]

Originally posted by Supercharts
I am a Jew. Not by birth but by choice.
The entire Mid-East thing. If there were no Jews would it be so very different? No Israel?
Always - in the background - it's a Jew thing.
I am venting and I am angry. I'm a JEW.
What did we do to deserve this ********?

Relax, its nothing personal.

The French started to colonise Algeria in the 1830's ( I think ). the Arabs began to hate them, there was a brutal revolt against the colonists in the 1950's and 2 million or so colonists.....the pieds noirs....were forced to return to metropolitan France.

Your lot started to colonise Palestine in the 1880's. The Arabs started to hate them, there was a brutal revolt against the colonists and........

So, plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose.

Hope this helps;)

Oh and of all the religions in all the world why did you choose that one?

[rikzilla]

Originally posted by a_unique_person


Jews in other countries seem to be able to get on with their neighbours pretty well. If anything, it appears to be the extremists from the US, such as Kahane, who have really stirred up the pot.

As for the hypothetical question. It is impossible to answer. My guess is yes, but there won't ever be an answer. [/B]

AUP...Kahane's been dead for ten years. (Murdered by an Islamic fundie who has direct ties to the perpetrators of the first WTC bombing) You're beating up a corpse instead of a strawman...but it's the same difference. In a world full of Saddams, Mullah Omars, Yasser Arafats, and Bin Ladens you single out American Jews as "extremists"!! Your perception is FUBAR.

-zilla

BTW SC,...aren't you an atheist?? Isn't the only way to become a Jew and not be an ethnic Jew is to be religious???

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by a_unique_person
If you read some history, the whole 'Jew' thing goes back two thousand years.

What do you mean by 'Jew' thing?

JK

[Shane Costello]

Originally posted by Nikk:
Your lot started to colonise Palestine in the 1880's. The Arabs started to hate them, there was a brutal revolt against the colonists and........

Didn't Arabs sell them the land to begin with?

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Shane Costello
Originally posted by Nikk:


Didn't Arabs sell them the land to begin with?

It wasn't quite that simple. Zionism from the start had the aim of buying land, but only selling it to other jews, and forming a jewish state on arab land. Understandably, the arabs might get a little concerned at that.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight


What do you mean by 'Jew' thing?

JK

persecution of jews, leading to the movement to form a modern jewish state.

[Drooper]

Originally posted by Shane Costello
Originally posted by Nikk:


Didn't Arabs sell them the land to begin with?

Yes, that is the sad irony of this. Tales of "stolen land" are nonsense. Land was purchase and used to profitable effect - something that hadn't been done until then. Gradually the Jewish settlers owned more an more territory - legally.

If the Palestinians have any real beef it is with the British and their so called Arab friends.

[ZeeGerman]

Originally posted by rikzilla



BTW SC,...aren't you an atheist?? Isn't the only way to become a Jew and not be an ethnic Jew is to be religious???


What the heck is "ethnic Jew" supposed to mean. I guess there is no such thing just as there is no "ethnic roman catholic" or "ethnic mormon".

Ther was a time over here in Germany where people tried to single out Jews on behalf of ethnic markers and it was all a big bunch of BS. I would simply state that there is no such thing as a jewish race.

Zee

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Drooper


Yes, that is the sad irony of this. Tales of "stolen land" are nonsense. Land was purchase and used to profitable effect - something that hadn't been done until then. Gradually the Jewish settlers owned more an more territory - legally.

If the Palestinians have any real beef it is with the British and their so called Arab friends.

No, the land that was bought was never to be sold again to anyone but a jew. the intention from the start was to build a jewish state. that is not a multicultural society, but something different again.

[Liamo]

Originally posted by ZeeGerman


What the heck is "ethnic Jew" supposed to mean. I guess there is no such thing just as there is no "ethnic roman catholic" or "ethnic mormon".

Ther was a time over here in Germany where people tried to single out Jews on behalf of ethnic markers and it was all a big bunch of BS. I would simply state that there is no such thing as a jewish race.

Zee
Replace "ethnic" with "hereditary", and there is no problem no more!

Liam

[Shane Costello]

Originally posted by Zee German:
I would simply state that there is no such thing as a jewish race.

Actually there is evidence to suggest a Jewish ethnicity.

www.csulb.edu/~kmacd/genetics.htm

Interestingly Jews and Palestinains share a similar ancestry.

[PogoPedant]

There was a Norwegian actor, not a particulary good one, but one of reknown nontheless. His name I have forgotten. He was asked in an interview what it was like being a tartar.
Now the tartars are a people that have been through some tough times; they were persecuted by the nazies, they were on the wrong end of the eugenics stick here in Norway all the way through to the late 60's, and they've been driven out of cities throughout history. I belive they may be related to the gypsies somehow. They might even be gypsies for all I know.
Anyways, this actor mulled over the question for a while, before he answered:
'I'm proud of being a tartar; it's much like being a jew, except we don't bitch that much.'

I laughed. Call me insensitive.

[Drooper]

Originally posted by a_unique_person


No, the land that was bought was never to be sold again to anyone but a jew. the intention from the start was to build a jewish state. that is not a multicultural society, but something different again.

They bought the land.

Of the history I have read of Israel the early settlers ranged from raging Zionist to those just looking for a better life. The Jews were content to coexist with the Arabs, who didn't particularly what to have a lot to do with the new settlers, but often (mostly the Bedu) just ignored the Jews.

[BillyTK]

The thing with the term ethnicity is that it acknowledges cultural practices--traditions, customs, identity and the like--as important as hereditry (sp?), and handily sidesteps the idea of "race", with all the baggage that entails.

Ethnicity becomes more explicit as a result of migration, depending a lot on the host group and migrating group seeing each other as sufficiently different. You wouldn't necessarily get "ethnic roman catholic", as that in itself is not distinctive enough for an ethnicity--there's not necessarily any sense of being roman catholic which is more significant than your nationality; you can be roman catholic AND English, for instance or roman catholic AND Spanish. But you might find roman catholicism as a distinct element of an Irish ethnicity which results from Irish migration of the last 150 years or so.

[Victor Danilchenko]

a_unique_person

If you read some history, the whole 'Jew' thing goes back two thousand years.Actually, it goes back more like 26 centuries, to the razing of the first temple.

The irony is, just when the jews got sick of being kicked around, and europe finally seems to be prepared to accept them without blaming them for jesus being crucified, the zionist movement really gets going and they go out and start kicking around the arabs living in palestine. ******** -- and I say this as a jew (yes, I am). Europe was never prepared to accept jews, except maybe for a brief period right after WWII. Antisemitism in Europe is alive and well, and has been alive and well all along -- there are just fewer jews.

Do you know why there are fewer jews in Europe, besides the Holocaust? because european jews, unlike you, know that they are not accepted as equals. This is why we need Israel -- because sinagogues in France are burning.

Jews in other countries seem to be able to get on with their neighbours pretty well.Until the neighbors get poor, or angry, or something, and then history repeats itself. You are speaking out of your ass.

It wasn't quite that simple. Zionism from the start had the aim of buying land, but only selling it to other jews, and forming a jewish state on arab land. Understandably, the arabs might get a little concerned at that.then they should have used similarly legitimate means of responding. they didn't. They didn't even use that land -- jews turned Israel into a garden where only desert and marshes stood before.

Formation of Israel was not a pretty thing -- formation of new nations, or even re-creation of the old ones, never is; but it was a necessary thing. Arabs, with their insane response (attacking israel instead of forming palestinians state) made their own bed, though.

P.S. Yes, there is "judaism the religion" and "jewry the ethnicity". I am the latter but not the former. There is no "jewish race", and anyone who tells you otherwise is probably an anti-semite.

[Mike B.]

Bigotry against Jews is alive and well today all over the world. I remember growing up a neighbor was particularily hateful, for no reason I could see. He was always talking about "Jewish bankers."

When I was in Poland a few years ago, I visited Auchswitz. A local woman said to me, "I don't support the gas chambers, but something must be wrong with these Jews. Everywhere they go people hate them. The Romans, Spanish Inquisition, pograms, the Nazis, and now the Arabs. I think they bring it on themselves."

Sad :(

[Graham]

Originally posted by Victor Danilchenko
a_unique_person

Actually, it goes back more like 26 centuries, to the razing of the first temple.

******** -- and I say this as a jew (yes, I am). Europe was never prepared to accept jews, except maybe for a brief period right after WWII. Antisemitism in Europe is alive and well, and has been alive and well all along -- there are just fewer jews.

Do you know why there are fewer jews in Europe, besides the Holocaust? because european jews, unlike you, know that they are not accepted as equals. This is why we need Israel -- because sinagogues in France are burning.

Until the neighbors get poor, or angry, or something, and then history repeats itself. You are speaking out of your ass.

then they should have used similarly legitimate means of responding. they didn't. They didn't even use that land -- jews turned Israel into a garden where only desert and marshes stood before.

Formation of Israel was not a pretty thing -- formation of new nations, or even re-creation of the old ones, never is; but it was a necessary thing. Arabs, with their insane response (attacking israel instead of forming palestinians state) made their own bed, though.

P.S. Yes, there is "judaism the religion" and "jewry the ethnicity". I am the latter but not the former. There is no "jewish race", and anyone who tells you otherwise is probably an anti-semite.

I'm sorry, I don't understand the distinction between "jewish race" and "jewry the ethnicity".

Can you explain that a bit futher please?

Thanks,

Graham

[Reager]

Originally posted by Richard G


You have a fundamental problem with your statement. You may practice Judaic Christianity, thus making you Jewish (an adjective describing your adopted religion). But you are not ever truly a Jew. That is a race unto itself, and you can no more change your race than I can. You are NOT a Jew. You practice Judaism.

This is just a pet peave of mine. Pay no attention.

That's nonsense. Judaism is a religion. Many Jews (but not all) share cultural and ethnic traits, but a non-Jew who properly converts is no less a Jew than a "born" Jew. Of course, what is a "proper" conversion differs depending on who you ask. :)

Mike

[Victor Danilchenko]

Graham

I'm sorry, I don't understand the distinction between "jewish race" and "jewry the ethnicity".

Can you explain that a bit futher please?it's the same as difference between "race" and "ethnicity" in general. Is there "french race"? How about "english race"?

"race" is a loaded, and arguably meaningless, term referring to certain genetic makeup. "Ethnicity" is much better defined, referring to a combination of ancentry and various cultural factors.

[Shane Costello]

I remember learning in my religion class in school that Judaism wasn't an evangelical faith, since the cornerstone of Judaism was that the Jews were the "chosen people". Consequently it's difficult to convert to Judaism, or am I wrong about this?


Originally posted by Victor Danilchenko:
then they should have used similarly legitimate means of responding. they didn't. They didn't even use that land -- jews turned Israel into a garden where only desert and marshes stood before.

Wasn't it the case that the Arabic population of Palestine increased with Jewish immigration, as Arabs from surrounding areas took advantage of the economic and technological advances the Jews introduced with them?

[ZeeGerman]

Originally posted by Mike B.
Bigotry against Jews is alive and well today all over the world. I remember growing up a neighbor was particularily hateful, for no reason I could see. He was always talking about "Jewish bankers."

When I was in Poland a few years ago, I visited Auchswitz. A local woman said to me, "I don't support the gas chambers, but something must be wrong with these Jews. Everywhere they go people hate them. The Romans, Spanish Inquisition, pograms, the Nazis, and now the Arabs. I think they bring it on themselves."

Sad :(

I know this kind of latent anti semitism, it's still present in Germany, to a small degree though - I hope. Part of the problem is that nothing sticks like slander. Let me tell you something about my father. He was born in 1927 and thus happend to enter the school system just in time to enjoy an education by the Nazi regime which infiltrated things like public media and education system immediately once they had the power. I've seen school books from that time (you ever come to Nürnberg, visit the permanent exhibition "Faszination und Gewalt - Fascination and Violence" ) and it's unbelievable what kind of malice and hate they poured in the head of the children. Now, my father is a very rational man and far from being an anti semite or having anything positive to say about those doomed 12 years, but still... He sees some prominent guy on TV and suddenly points out "That's a Jew by the way". I go "so what?" - "Nothing, just a remark" Sometimes he even says something like "that's a typical Jew". I rub it into his face about "typical" immediately and during the argument he grasps it rationally, but I think some of the old prejudice is still buried somewhere and I guess it's similar for a lot of people of his generation.

We cannot eradicate prejudice,
all we can do is stay aware of it and don't let our thinking be blurred by it.

Zee

[Victor Danilchenko]

Shane Costello

I remember learning in my religion class in school that Judaism wasn't an evangelical faith, since the cornerstone of Judaism was that the Jews were the "chosen people". Consequently it's difficult to convert to Judaism, or am I wrong about this?Well, it's not difficult, it's just that jews don't prozelytize (except against apostatic jews sometimes). You have to want to convert to judaism, of your own will. The actual conversion is more complicated than xianity, but it's not that bad, except for circumcision thing for men.

Wasn't it the case that the Arabic population of Palestine increased with Jewish immigration, as Arabs from surrounding areas took advantage of the economic and technological advances the Jews introduced with them?I read something to that effect as well, yes.

[BillyTK]

Originally posted by Victor Danilchenko
******** -- and I say this as a jew (yes, I am). Europe was never prepared to accept jews, except maybe for a brief period right after WWII. Antisemitism in Europe is alive and well, and has been alive and well all along -- there are just fewer jews.


Which is sad but true, particularly with the popularity of white supremacists across Europe. Although if we stretch the definition of Europe to include the UK, then Jewish people are slightly better off here, but only because the idiot brigade has its attentions on Asians and "asylum seekers" :(

[Tmy]

Are you an Israeli??? You can be a Jew and not be an Israeli. I hate how the two become merged because you get tagged as an anti-semite if you have problems with the behavior of Israeli government.

[rikzilla]

Originally posted by Tmy
Are you an Israeli??? You can be a Jew and not be an Israeli. I hate how the two become merged because you get tagged as an anti-semite if you have problems with the behavior of Israeli government.

The Israeli government, first off, is a representative democracy...which means simply that you are officially allowed to have problems with it. This simple distinction means it is responsive to it's own people...and BTW is morally superior to every Arab government now in existence.

The Israeli government uses it's military to deincentivize terrorism. Which simply means it is also superior to most euro governments and the UN because it does not reward terrorist causes...it punishes them. This is a lesson the German, Italian, and French governments (who have simply released captured terrorists under pressure of future terrorism directed against them) should learn. Their history of deal making and outright appeasement of terrorism is the "root cause" of the terrorist success of 9/11.

-zilla

[ZeeGerman]

Originally posted by rikzilla


This is a lesson the German, Italian, and French governments (who have simply released captured terrorists under pressure of future terrorism directed against them) should learn. Their history of deal making and outright appeasement of terrorism is the "root cause" of the terrorist success of 9/11.

-zilla

What the hell are you talking about? Stick to Germany please, I won't speak for the others.

Zee

[Victor Danilchenko]

Tmy

you get tagged as an anti-semite if you have problems with the behavior of Israeli government.Many jews also have a problem with behavior of Israeli government -- I for example have a problem with the fact that Israel still allows steelements. Nothing good will happen for as long as settlements are permitted to sprout. Israel should simply stop the entire settlement thing.

That being said, I can say from personal experience that entirely too many self-proclaimed "anti-israelis", so to speak, are actually anti-semites who founf a PC-seeming way to express their prejudice. Yes, that's subjective interpretations and perceptions how else do you quantify anti-semitism before the sinagogues start burning? it's just that too many anti-Israel arguments simply make no sense unless you consider them as pretenses devised to excuse the real cause of antipathy, that being anti-semitism. Furthermore, very often the said anti-israelis let slip statements that reveal their deeper prejudices against jews.

I don't know what to attribute it to, given that so much of this sentiment is coming from the left, except perhaps one thing; by its very existence, Israel proves false the liberal dream of jews and non-jews peacefully coexisting in non-jewish state; or at least, it proves false the belief that Europe has moved beyond its sordid anti-semitic past. The fact that jews felt the need to leave Europe, even after WWII, is a fundamental denial of the viability of the liberal integration programme; and so too many, instead of accepting the reality of anti-semitism and cheering Israel on for giving jews a safe haven, become anti-semites themselves and blame jews (the victims) for their own plight. This way, they don't have to confront the falsehood of their premises of European enlightenement, WRT jewish integration at least -- they just blame the jews rather than themselves and their countrymen for the persistence of anti-semitism.

[hgc]

Victor:

P.S. Yes, there is "judaism the religion" and "jewry the ethnicity". I am the latter but not the former. There is no "jewish race", and anyone who tells you otherwise is probably an anti-semite.

...

it's the same as difference between "race" and "ethnicity" in general. Is there "french race"? How about "english race"?

"race" is a loaded, and arguably meaningless, term referring to certain genetic makeup. "Ethnicity" is much better defined, referring to a combination of ancentry and various cultural factors.

Victor, I'd have to disagree with you. As Jews, we self-define as a racial group. That's the implication of defining our membership based on birth-mother. That is the same thing as the Jewish "ethnicity" you claim. I'm using the term "race" to mean a genetically connected community.

That racists, including racial anti-semites, define their bigotry based on our racial heritage does not change the reality of that racial heritage.

[rikzilla]

Originally posted by ZeeGerman


What the hell are you talking about? Stick to Germany please, I won't speak for the others.

Zee

Chancellor Brandt made a deal with terrorists to release 3 captured terrorists from the Black September group who were guilty of murdering Israeli athletes at the Munich Olympics.

Your government is guilty of rewarding terrorism in at least this one instance.

-zilla

[Victor Danilchenko]

hgc

Victor, I'd have to disagree with you. As Jews, we self-define as a racial group.Huh? Since when? We self-define as an ethnic and/or religious group.

That's the implication of defining our membership based on birth-mother. That is the same thing as the Jewish "ethnicity" you claim. I'm using the term "race" to mean a genetically connected community.Ethnicity means the same (this is why I listed 'ancestry" as one of th efactors determining ethnicity); but beyond that "race" and "ethnicity" have drastically different meanings. Inasmuch as "race" is a valid concept at all, jews are racially causasian (and so are arabs BTW). Ethnically, jews are jews, just as french are french, regardless of the fact that jews and french are both caucasian.

The concept of "race" includes certain physiological features, while ethnicity does not. For example, a russian and a pole, while coming from basically the same genetic pool, are of different ethnicities, because one is decendant from russian parents, and another from polish parents; the mere fact of descent is sufficient to differentiate them thusly. A russian is not a russian because he possesses XYZ phenotypical features, but simply because he is descendant from russian aprents and bearer of russian culture. Contrawise, two people with as minute a physiological difference as our russian and pole are, could not be reasonably said to belong to different races. Thus, among other things, the statement of 'jewish race' implies a certain fundamental difference of jews, down to gross psysiological and phenotypical level -- and guess what? the archetypical 19th century jew (you know, big hooked nose, fat lips, receded chin, bulging eyes, etc.) possesses just such differences! but real jews do not. We have nothing to label us a separate race -- nothing.

That racists, including racial anti-semites, define their bigotry based on our racial heritage does not change the reality of that racial heritage.jewish heritage is no more racial than french or russian heritage is racial; and yet, by your definition of 'racial' meaning 'genetically connected", there is indeed a french race, a russian race, an italian race, etc.

No, jewish heritage is ethnic and cultural; calling it 'racial' is either antisemitic or grossly ignorant.

Frankly, I am astounded by your ignorance. How could you have been raised in jewish culture and be unaware of such fundamental facts, the facts that have been used to define and frame the persecution of our people for millenia?

[ZeeGerman]

Originally posted by rikzilla


Chancellor Brandt made a deal with terrorists to release 3 captured terrorists from the Black September group who were guilty of murdering Israeli athletes at the Munich Olympics.

Your government is guilty of rewarding terrorism in at least this one instance.

-zilla

Well,

since you are so eager to pass out guilt and advice about what my government should learn, let's get the facts a bit more complete:

Brandt had the four terrorists released, indeed. He was urged to do this because other terrorists had kidnapped a german plane and threatened to kill all passengers. It's not mine to judge this decision but it is not yours either. Especially not if you consider your own position over in the torture-thread where you vehemently propose to choose the lesser evil to prevent a large. BTW the release of the terrorists damaged the relationship to Israel quite a lot but in the end the Brandt government reached in intensive discussions with Israel that most isrealian politicians accepted the decision (sorry, I can only provide a german reference here (http://www.bwbs.de/Beitraege/76.html) )

As far as I recall, this was the first and the last time a German government gave in to terroristic demands. Hans Martin Schleyer (politician) was killed by Baader-Meinhof because the Schmidt-Government stood its ground. A Lufthansa plane with more than 100 passengers was kidnapped by four arab terrorists to force the release of 11 RAF (Rote Armee Fraktion, NOT Royal Air Force)prisoners. the plane was stormed successfully by german special forces (GSG-9) in Mogadishu.

So maybe MY Government knows more about dealing with terrorists than you.

And one more point:
Calling this incident one of the root causes that led to 911 is not only far fetched, it is downright ********.
America has messed up enough things in the middle east to provide a root cause right on its own..
:mad:
Zee

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by ZeeGerman


Well,

since you are so eager to pass out guilt and advice about what my government should learn, let's get the facts a bit more complete:

Brandt had the four terrorists released, indeed. He was urged to do this because other terrorists had kidnapped a german plane and threatened to kill all passengers. It's not mine to judge this decision but it is not yours either. Especially not if you consider your own position over in the torture-thread where you vehemently propose to choose the lesser evil to prevent a large. BTW the release of the terrorists damaged the relationship to Israel quite a lot but in the end the Brandt government reached in intensive discussions with Israel that most isrealian politicians accepted the decision (sorry, I can only provide a german reference here (http://www.bwbs.de/Beitraege/76.html) )

As far as I recall, this was the first and the last time a German government gave in to terroristic demands. Hans Martin Schleyer (politician) was killed by Baader-Meinhof because the Schmidt-Government stood its ground. A Lufthansa plane with more than 100 passengers was kidnapped by four arab terrorists to force the release of 11 RAF (Rote Armee Fraktion, NOT Royal Air Force)prisoners. the plane was stormed successfully by german special forces (GSG-9) in Mogadishu.

So maybe MY Government knows more about dealing with terrorists than you.

And one more point:
Calling this incident one of the root causes that led to 911 is not only far fetched, it is downright ********.
America has messed up enough things in the middle east to provide a root cause right on its own..
:mad:
Zee

What has America done to "mess up" the middle east?

JK

[corplinx]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight


What has America done to "mess up" the middle east?

JK

Agreed, if the middle east has been messed up with anyone, I would have to point he finger at the PLO. They rejected the UN resolution giving them their own state in the forties. They got kicked out of Jordan. Their terrorism was the catalyst that turned Lebanon into rubble. Their current war against Israeli civilians keeps the middle east polarized.

[ZeeGerman]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight


What has America done to "mess up" the middle east?

JK

Nothing JK, it's OK. Shut up.

Zee

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Victor Danilchenko
a_unique_person

Actually, it goes back more like 26 centuries, to the razing of the first temple.



that the jews were involved in wars with their neighbours hardly singles them out as being a target for discrimination. Back in those days, conquering your neighbour was taken for granted. Jews and the others in that area all indulged in the practice.



******** -- and I say this as a jew (yes, I am). Europe was never prepared to accept jews, except maybe for a brief period right after WWII. Antisemitism in Europe is alive and well, and has been alive and well all along -- there are just fewer jews.



there are no more ghettos, pogroms or other extremes. The racism that is present is probably what is apparent for gypsies, asians etc. mosques are being fire bombed too.



Do you know why there are fewer jews in Europe, besides the Holocaust? because european jews, unlike you, know that they are not accepted as equals. This is why we need Israel -- because sinagogues in France are burning.



the state of israel has been one of the major reasons for the current jewish problem. Many jews around the world don't agree with the current actions of the Israeli government. the current strategy of sacrificing jews to suicide bombers is being used to justify the eventual formal incorporation of the west bank and gaza into israel.

most secular jews, from what i understand, really aren't interested in taking over these parts of palestine. if they were returned to the palestinians, we would have a much simpler situation, and the palestinian/israeli problem would be much easier to resolve. Palestinians for many years worked in israel without any problems. As it is, racism from Israel is now just as bad as the racism the jews experienced in old europe, with the palestiniands being confined to ghettos and humiliation.




Until the neighbors get poor, or angry, or something, and then history repeats itself. You are speaking out of your ass.

then they should have used similarly legitimate means of responding. they didn't. They didn't even use that land -- jews turned Israel into a garden where only desert and marshes stood before.



israel is running a state that is ecologically unsustainable. pollution and water use are out of control. the economy is a disaster. without the billions in aid from the US, israel would be sunk.



Formation of Israel was not a pretty thing -- formation of new nations, or even re-creation of the old ones, never is; but it was a necessary thing. Arabs, with their insane response (attacking israel instead of forming palestinians state) made their own bed, though.



the formation of a palestinian state is not too pretty either. arabs have been the patsies in all of this. European jews are getting it tough, that's ok, the arabs will let us take their land to form a new state.



P.S. Yes, there is "judaism the religion" and "jewry the ethnicity". I am the latter but not the former. There is no "jewish race", and anyone who tells you otherwise is probably an anti-semite.

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by ZeeGerman


Nothing JK, it's OK. Shut up.

Zee

lol

JK

[Skeptic]

The irony is, just when the jews got sick of being kicked around, and europe finally seems to be prepared to accept them without blaming them for jesus being crucified, the zionist movement really gets going and they go out and start kicking around the arabs living in palestine.

Zionism: started ~1900; The holocaust: ~1940-1945. Er... so what's that thing about the jews being "accepted" by the Europeans "just as" zionism started?

Also, the number of arabs living in (Ottoman and, later, British) palestine rose sharply--from 30,000 to about 300,000--through immigration, AFTER the "evil zionists" came over. You see, the "evil zionists" raised the standard of living, bought and developed land, and so on, so palestine became, instead of the armpit of the dying Ottoman empire, just about the best place to live in the middle east--for arabs as well as for jews. Some "kicking the arabs around".

EVERY piece of land the jews ever got from the arabs was bought by the jews... except for what they got in wars of annihilation started by the arabs in order to "throw the jews into the sea". You can easily imagine what would happen to the jews if the arabs had WON the war in 1948, 1967, or 1973. They would have been butchered to the last baby.

The real cause of arab anger is not the "mistreatment of the palestinians", but the very existence of the jews. All "holy palestinian land" (which includes, of course, all of present israel) must be cleaned, by butchery and expulsion, of any trace of the disgusting jews. That's what "the legitimate rights of the palestinian people" mean. But for some reason, you ignore this.

Jews in other countries seem to be able to get on with their neighbours pretty well.

Yup, the jews of Germany and Poland got along pretty well with the nazis, didn't they? Not to mentions the jews of Russia getting along well with the Kossacks, and later, Stalin (does the expression "the Pogroms of 1905" ring a bell? How about "the doctor trials"?), or the jews in the arab world, which were essentially kicked out as "punishment" for israel's existence (wait, don't tell me: that makes it israel's fault, right?) or half a dozen other cases I could mention off the top of my head.

If anything, it appears to be the extremists from the US, such as Kahane, who have really stirred up the pot.

Perhaps Hamas and Arafat had something to do with it as well.

[Shane Costello]

Originally psoted by a_unique_person:
there are no more ghettos, pogroms or other extremes.

Due to the fact there aren't that many Jews left, perhaps.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Shane Costello
Originally psoted by a_unique_person:


Due to the fact there aren't that many Jews left, perhaps.

that would just make ghettos easier.

[Victor Danilchenko]

a_unique_person

there are no more ghettos, pogroms or other extremes. The racism that is present is probably what is apparent for gypsies, asians etc. mosques are being fire bombed too.And does the fact of prejudice against other peoples uname the prejudice against jews?.. :rolleyes:

Many jews around the world don't agree with the current actions of the Israeli government.Yeah. neither do I, as I already said. However, you will find hardly any jews who disagree with the very existence of Israel; because too many jews know just how fragile their "integration" is.

the current strategy of sacrificing jews to suicide bombers is being used to justify the eventual formal incorporation of the west bank and gaza into israel.Dude, you are fscking insane.

most secular jews, from what i understand, really aren't interested in taking over these parts of palestine.And Israel is a mostly secular country -- well, *********** bingo! Israel has to control the territories because of the bombings. PLO had their big chance in 2000, but guess what? Arafat doesn't give a rat's ass about peace, he just want to survive and to retain power. In a peaceful state of Palestine, he would be irrelevant. If palestinians want their state, they should start by kicking out Arafat and by stopping suicide bombings (and yes, Israel should start by removing the settlements).

if they were returned to the palestinians, we would have a much simpler situation, and the palestinian/israeli problem would be much easier to resolve.You are an ignoramus, if that's what you think. Those lands were under PLO autonomous control, and they were offered statehood, but Arafat refused (and yes, in doing so, he probably did represent the wishes of the majority of palestinians, who seem to want destruction of Israel more than construction of Palestine).

Palestinians for many years worked in israel without any problems. As it is, racism from Israel is now just as bad as the racism the jews experienced in old europe, with the palestiniands being confined to ghettos and humiliation.Jews in the Old Europe didn't blow up buses full of innocent civilians, but such a piddling detail surely doesn't deserve your attention.

the formation of a palestinian state is not too pretty either. arabs have been the patsies in all of this. European jews are getting it tough, that's ok, the arabs will let us take their land to form a new state.Arabs were never expelled from Israel. Land was bough lawfully, and arabs who wanted to stay during 1948 period, were allowed to do so (they and their descendants now enjoy a rather high standard of living and a participation in a democratic society).

Arabs have been patsies? Check your facts. Check your history, too (think of formation of Israel as the righting of an even older wrong than that inflicted on arabs by Ottoman Empire and then the British).

[Tmy]

The Isreal created by the UN looks alot different than the one that exists now.

Im a little bothered by the arguments of "they had their chance at peace" and "if the terrorists stopped we wouldnt be doing this" being used to justify the bulldozing of homes etc...

[Victor Danilchenko]

Originally posted by Tmy

The Isreal created by the UN looks alot different than the one that exists now.As a result of 4 different defensive wars (1948, 1956, 1967, 1972). let's not forget the incessant attacks by neighboring arab states when we diclaim Israel's changed geography.

Im a little bothered by the arguments of "they had their chance at peace"Why? I am not sayin gthat they won't have their chance at peace again -- it's just a response to people who speak about how poor and oppressed palestinians are. The fact is that they had a chance to be free, and they ignored it.

and "if the terrorists stopped we wouldnt be doing this" being used to justify the bulldozing of homes etc...Notice that i also said that israel should similarly cut the settlements crap. However, that doesn't make any less true the fact that Israel excercises military power as a mean to protect itself from terrorism.

[Tmy]

I dont blame Israel for youing force. Somtimes I think they go to far to the point where they are no better than the terrorists.

I dont think your average Pali has any real control over what the terrorists do. Imagine trying to take out the Italian mob in NYC. You go in and bulldoze thru little Italy and justify your actions because the Italians aren't turinginthe terrorists. But could they even if they wanted too? What would happen to a snitch?

Its like a terrorist justifying a bus bombing because the Israeli's voted in a hawkish leader and therefore are not innocent.

[Victor Danilchenko]

Tmy

dont blame Israel for youing force. Somtimes I think they go to far to the point where they are no better than the terrorists.they don't deliberately target innocent civilians. that makes them way better than terrorists.

I dont think your average Pali has any real control over what the terrorists do. Imagine trying to take out the Italian mob in NYC. You go in and bulldoze thru little Italy and justify your actions because the Italians aren't turinginthe terrorists.but israel doesn't bulldoze through innocent civilians because they don't turn in the terrorists -- they bulldoze when the house in question is being used to protect the terrorists being hunted; they bulldoze to minimize casualties threatened by door-to-door urban fighting. There have been exceptions, but those are by individual soldiers disobeying orders. Israel doesn't bulldoze in retaliation, as your Little italy example suggests.

Its like a terrorist justifying a bus bombing because the Israeli's voted in a hawkish leader and therefore are not innocent.Bus bombings have no legitimate military purpose. Bulldozings do -- they remove cover that the terrorists hide behind. Did you really think that Israel bulldozes the houses simply because palestinians don't turn in the terrorists? Come on.

[Tmy]

You make it sound like theyre knocking down crack houses. Usually the target is an apartment building.

Knocking over and entire apartment building because a terrorist lived in ONE apartment is overkill. You may not be targeting innocents but your also not avoiding them. The underlieing message is that "you will all pay for the terrorists actions". That just creates more resentment which creates more terrorist sympathaizers.

Say Im Joe Palistine. I work hard and have an apartment mind my own business, dont agree with sucide bombings. Then the Isreali army knocks down my building cause the guy on the 8th floor builds pipe bombs for terrorist. You think Im going to sympathise with the Israelis after that happens????

Not that I have any answers to solve things. Otherwise Id be shineing my Nobel peace prize.

[Victor Danilchenko]

Tmy

You make it sound like theyre knocking down crack houses. Usually the target is an apartment building.The ones where the terrorists are hiding. it has nothing to do with crack houses, and everything with removing enemy's cover.

Knocking over and entire apartment building because a terrorist lived in ONE apartment is overkill.Where do they do it? Are you perhaps referring to an assassination of a terrorist leader, instead of a bulldozing? Do you have a specific example in mind?

You may not be targeting innocents but your also not avoiding them.Nope. Israeli military goes to remarkable extremes to avoid harming innocent civilians.

The underlieing message is that "you will all pay for the terrorists actions".********.

That just creates more resentment which creates more terrorist sympathaizers.that it true, more terrorist sympathizers are created; but it's not because israel arrogantly and uncaringly destroys any civilian it brushes by.

Say Im Joe Palistine. I work hard and have an apartment mind my own business, dont agree with sucide bombings. Then the Isreali army knocks down my building cause the guy on the 8th floor builds pipe bombs for terrorist. You think Im going to sympathise with the Israelis after that happens????As I said, do you have a specific example of an appartment building being knocked over because one terrorist lived in it (as opposed to using it to set up a defense firepoint and attack isareli soldiers)?

The fact is that terrorists deliberately use other palestinians and their property for defense -- creating the 'You may kill me, but then you will also have to destroy XYZ' effect. The terrorists who do that are just as much to blame for the resulting destruction.

[Nikk]

Originally posted by Drooper


Yes, that is the sad irony of this. Tales of "stolen land" are nonsense. Land was purchase and used to profitable effect - something that hadn't been done until then. Gradually the Jewish settlers owned more an more territory - legally.

If the Palestinians have any real beef it is with the British and their so called Arab friends.


No Drooper, tales of stolen land are not nonsense.

Land in Palestine was held under primitive communal ownership systems (a bit like land "owned" by Scottish clans) until Ottoman land reform in 1858. This created a more modern system in which much of the land vested in absentee landlords. Again like the highlands.

These landlords sold the land out from under the peasant tenants, without their consent needless to say.
The nearest parallel in the UK would be the highland clearances and some of the more high handed bahaviour in Ireland.

The land was generally bought by the Jewish Fund and could not be sold to non jews. Does racism raise its ugly head here, perish the thought!

The Zionists knew they were colonising the place. As Theodore Herzl the founder of Zionism stated .....
"We shall try to spirit the penniless (Palestinian) population across the border by procuring employment for it in transit countries, while denying it employment in our own country... Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly..."

As resistance to colonisation mounted the British attempted to control the problem by restricting immigration and limiting land purchases with a view to preventing the creation of a disaffected landless class.

As Mahatma Gandhi said in 1938

"Palestine belongs to the Arabs in the same sense that England belongs to the English or France to the French...What is going on in Palestine today cannot be justified by any moral code of conduct...If they [the Jews] must look to the Palestine of geography as their national home, it is wrong to enter it under the shadow of the British gun. A religious act cannot be performed with the aid of the bayonet or the bomb. They can settle in Palestine only by the goodwill of the Arabs... As it is, they are co-sharers with the British in despoiling a people who have done no wrong to them. I am not defending the Arab excesses. I wish they had chosen the way of non-violence in resisting what they rightly regard as an unacceptable encroachment upon their country. But according to the accepted canons of right and wrong, nothing can be said against the Arab resistance in the face of overwhelming odds." Mahatma Gandhi, quoted in "A Land of Two Peoples" ed. Mendes-Flohr.

By 1948 only 6% of the land was in Jewish ownership. Care to wonder how they acquired the rest?

It is impossible not to sympathise with the plight of the Jews in the 19thC as well as in the 20th. BUT the Palestinians had done them no harm and their country was in effect stolen from them.

So..........I think my parallel with the French in Algeria is appropiate.

[Shane Costello]

Originally posted by Nikk:
By 1948 only 6% of the land was in Jewish ownership. Care to wonder how they acquired the rest?

Had it anything to do with the Arab invasions of 1948, 1967 and 1973?

These landlords sold the land out from under the peasant tenants, without their consent needless to say.
The nearest parallel in the UK would be the highland clearances and some of the more high handed bahaviour in Ireland.

The land was generally bought by the Jewish Fund and could not be sold to non jews. Does racism raise its ugly head here, perish the thought!

This isn't theft, since the land was bought from the legal owners. If the scenario you describe is true, then the Palestinians beef is with centuries of Turkish rule, not Zionism.

[JAR]

Originally posted by Supercharts
I am a Jew. Not by birth but by choice.
The entire Mid-East thing. If there were no Jews would it be so very different? No Israel?
Always - in the background - it's a Jew thing.
I am venting and I am angry. I'm a JEW.
What did we do to deserve this ********?

I know how you feel. The situation between the Jews and Palestinians is somewhat similar to the situation between European-Americans and ethnic groups such as the African-Americans and Native-American Indians. We have a similar problem. I didn't ask to be born a person of European descent, and Jewish people don't ask to be born Jewish. Yet many people will hold that against us. But people do lose their hatred of people over time. When was the last time we heard someone say that we have to get back at all the Norse people for all the viking raids they did?

[Beausoleil]

This seems to be a reasonably balanced history of a region where the level of disinformation from both sides is unbelievable.

http://www.merip.org/palestine-israel_primer/toc-pal-isr-primer.html

Neither side of the conflict comes out of it with any credit, I'd say. Both sides have had their fanatics who don't see members of the other side as human beings. Moderates on both sides should be ashamed of themselves for failing to denounce their fanatical brethren. Jews denouncing Muslim fanatics and Muslims denouncing Jewish fanatics get us nowhere. What we need is liberal Jews denouncing Jewish fanatics and liberal Muslims denouncing Muslim fanatics, but both communities are too mealy mouthed about things that are done in their name. Suicide bombing is disgusting, while Israelis should be ashamed to appear in public while the settlement programme in the West Bank and Gaza continues.

I'm undecided about whether to blame it on pre-enlightenment religious nonsense (Jewish and Muslim) or outdated 19th century nationalism/racism (Zionism and Arabism). A plague on both their houses, as someone once said.

If you're looking at it in terms of the Jews doing this or the Arabs doing that, you're falling into their trap. If I were seen as a member of either community I wouldn't want to live in a state dominated by the other. And that's the problem.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Victor Danilchenko
Tmy

they don't deliberately target innocent civilians. that makes them way better than terrorists.



what do you call targetting journalists? i think you are deluding yourself here. the attitude appears to be that if no one can know what is happening, then it never happened.



but israel doesn't bulldoze through innocent civilians because they don't turn in the terrorists -- they bulldoze when the house in question is being used to protect the terrorists being hunted; they bulldoze to minimize casualties threatened by door-to-door urban fighting. There have been exceptions, but those are by individual soldiers disobeying orders. Israel doesn't bulldoze in retaliation, as your Little italy example suggests.



houses have been bulldozed for decades now, only they are not just bulldozing houses in places they don't wont them.



Bus bombings have no legitimate military purpose. Bulldozings do -- they remove cover that the terrorists hide behind. Did you really think that Israel bulldozes the houses simply because palestinians don't turn in the terrorists? Come on.

as more and more israeli settlements encroach on palestinian villages, the palestinians are being pushed back. it is not just palestinians who are doing the sniping. also, palestinians are being pushed out of their traditional villages. what could be more absurd than the situation at the 'tomb of abraham'. a title that was mentioned in the bible is held as being valid today.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Beausoleil
This seems to be a reasonably balanced history of a region where the level of disinformation from both sides is unbelievable.

http://www.merip.org/palestine-israel_primer/toc-pal-isr-primer.html

Neither side of the conflict comes out of it with any credit, I'd say. Both sides have had their fanatics who don't see members of the other side as human beings. Moderates on both sides should be ashamed of themselves for failing to denounce their fanatical brethren. Jews denouncing Muslim fanatics and Muslims denouncing Jewish fanatics get us nowhere. What we need is liberal Jews denouncing Jewish fanatics and liberal Muslims denouncing Muslim fanatics, but both communities are too mealy mouthed about things that are done in their name. Suicide bombing is disgusting, while Israelis should be ashamed to appear in public while the settlement programme in the West Bank and Gaza continues.

I'm undecided about whether to blame it on pre-enlightenment religious nonsense (Jewish and Muslim) or outdated 19th century nationalism/racism (Zionism and Arabism). A plague on both their houses, as someone once said.

If you're looking at it in terms of the Jews doing this or the Arabs doing that, you're falling into their trap. If I were seen as a member of either community I wouldn't want to live in a state dominated by the other. And that's the problem.

it think you do get moderates saying just this, their voices are drowned out by the shrillness of the extremists.