Breaking it to the folks...

[Gestahl]

After 4 years of dodging, avoiding, and flat-out lying, I cannot stand this situation any more. I feel that my world-view has so drastically changed from my family's Southern Baptist fundamentalist positions that I can't even speak to them anymore on any topic of interest.

Have any members here dealt with telling one's parents or family about your "conversion" to atheism or agnosticism? How would you suggest handling the situation? Extra points for those with what they would consider extreme fundamentalist family members. I don't want to lose my family, nor do I wish to "convert" them. Any help would be appreciated.

[Melissa Johnson]

Originally posted by Gestahl
After 4 years of dodging, avoiding, and flat-out lying, I cannot stand this situation any more. I feel that my world-view has so drastically changed from my family's Southern Baptist fundamentalist positions that I can't even speak to them anymore on any topic of interest.

Have any members here dealt with telling one's parents or family about your "conversion" to atheism or agnosticism? How would you suggest handling the situation? Extra points for those with what they would consider extreme fundamentalist family members. I don't want to lose my family, nor do I wish to "convert" them. Any help would be appreciated.

It's difficult not knowing how well you get on with your family or how tolerant they are of your new ideas.

I left home when I was 18 because my parents wanted to move to a more conservatively Catholic community and they wanted me to stop attending college. I did not try to convert any of them, although I did desperately for a while try to make my positions understood--in vain. I was committing a grave sin just by questioning my faith.

Now, nearly fifteen years later, I don't communicate with them very often. My cultural, political and philosophical views are so very far removed that we really only relate on a very basic level, which is sad. I have several siblings and my father has since passed away. I talk with my mother infrequently and we are always civil, but distant.

There is no easy answer that I have come across. You will go through some difficult, painful times, but in my opinion it's imperative to be honest, both with yourself and with your family.

Comforting, no? :(

[sparklecat]

I didn't have to. My ex-boyfriend found out before I brought myself to tell them, and emailed my mother.

[MLynn]

It's important to be true to yourself. As we get older our perspectives change and it is hard to tell loved ones of those changes. My experience was the opposite. I was not raised in a Xtian environment and ended up becoming a Xtian and when I told my family, they didn't shun me, but were not receptive and they thought I was kind of "nutty." There are Forum members who can tell you their Xtian to agnostic/atheist experiences. You'll know when it's time to tell them. :)

[MLynn]

Originally posted by sparklecat
I didn't have to. My ex-boyfriend found out before I brought myself to tell them, and emailed my mother.
That's rude, why did he do that?

[Lisa Simpson]

My mother didn't react well to my choosing Buddhism. I finally had to put a moratorium on religious discussions with her. Which seems to work out all right. Sort of a "don't ask, don't tell" policy. :)

One of my favorite episodes of The Simpsons is the one where Lisa becomes a Buddhist. My mom reacted in similar ways to Marge.

[Suezoled]

How old are you?
Are you living at home?
Are you dependent on them financially at all?
Do they acknowledge you're an adult?
Are you an adult?

[sparklecat]

Originally posted by MLynn

That's rude, why did he do that?

Basically to be rude. This was the point at which he took it upon himself to monitor my life and inform everyone of personal spiritual details of it.

[Ipecac]

I was always the least fundamentally-inclined in my family. I hadn't gone to church regularly in years because I didn't like the structure and some of the things the church taught. So they were somewhat used to my "non-standard" beliefs.

Once I realized that I no longer believed, I didn't tell anyone (even my non-fundamentalist wife) for some time. Over months, I would occasionally discuss various paranormal issues with a more critical eye, and when the topic turned to religion, would deal with that with critical thought as well. They eventually got the gist and I was more blatant about my lack of faith. Doesn't bother my wife, AFAIK, but it clearly bothers my Mom and my brother's family.

Now everyone knows. It hasn't been a horrible experience, but it could be better.

[Yahweh]

Originally posted by Gestahl
After 4 years of dodging, avoiding, and flat-out lying, I cannot stand this situation any more. I feel that my world-view has so drastically changed from my family's Southern Baptist fundamentalist positions that I can't even speak to them anymore on any topic of interest.

Have any members here dealt with telling one's parents or family about your "conversion" to atheism or agnosticism? How would you suggest handling the situation? Extra points for those with what they would consider extreme fundamentalist family members. I don't want to lose my family, nor do I wish to "convert" them. Any help would be appreciated.
My family is Southern Baptist.

Being that there is no sense of privacy in my home, Momma Yahweh just happened to come up a survey I had taken. It was the basic personality and future career tests, one question read "what is your religion". A crazy thing happened, Momma Yahweh saw I had marked the checkbox by the word "none" by mistake. She responds "we're Southern Baptist", my reply is "I'm not".

Then me and Momma Yahweh had "the long talk". Apparently my own words "I'm an atheist" are disingenuous, I dont realize I'm using them or what they mean, it turns out I'm merely being rebellious, I could never really be an atheist (especially considering how many repent on their deathbeds), no one could grow up being an atheist after living in a Southern Baptist home... yeah, whatever...

*Continues combing hair*

[Yahweh]

Originally posted by sparklecat
Basically to be rude. This was the point at which he took it upon himself to monitor my life and inform everyone of personal spiritual details of it.
Please, do not post that jackass's email on the boards for all eyes to see, someone might sign him up for spam mail and that would be TERRIBLE!

[evildave]

It's the classic question.

Do you feel *guilty* for not being exactly what they want you to be, like some sort of robot?

Do you feel compelled to *confess* your "sin"?

You could simply leave them ignorant of your choices. After all, they'll probably just go ballistic when you tell them.

Just leave them to their little assumptions and habits, lead a prayer for turkey day or whatever when it comes up socially, and only ever tell them the truth if they ever directly question you about this issue.

You probably never told them exactly about the first time you had sex, or other little things as well.

[sparklecat]

Originally posted by Yahweh

Please, do not post that jackass's email on the boards for all eyes to see, someone might sign him up for spam mail and that would be TERRIBLE!

*grins*

Thanks for the warning... I just couldn't, anyway, tempting though it may be. ;)

[Wrath of the Swarm]

It could be worse. Your father could be an Orthodox Christian priest.

[Silicon]

I don't speak about religion with the fundamentalist wing of my family.

They talk about it to me, and around me. And I just kind of demur and say, "thanks but no thanks."

Of course, I'm an adult, long out of the house. With my own life on the other side of the country.

I'm kind of politely mute on the subject. I rehearse possible answers if they engage in a conversion dialogue, which they haven't:

"I have personal beliefs in that area that I don't choose to discuss with you. I apologize, but I respect your right to hold your beliefs and I hope you respect mine."

[ca3799]

I'm from a family with a number of atheists (and other non-religous people) going back two or three generations that I know about. Unfortunately, some of us tend to die off early and others seem to be able to hold long grudges, so I don't know many of my older relatives.

Anyway the news that someone in our family is a non-believer is not as shocking in my family as it would be in others. Most of my family seems to be either atheist or else hold some nebulous and vague spiritual belief that they consider private and doesn't require attending any church. I cannot think of a single first degree relative who attends church.

My oldest sibling apparantly is rather outspokenly anti-religous and paved the way for the younger siblings, although it wasn't entirely necessary. He chooses to not mix with the family (I don't know why). He gave ma a copy of "The Golden Bough- The Roots fo Religion and Folklore" by Frazer when I was about 16. It was the first religous book I ever read (including the bible, which I never read). I hardly understood what I was reading, but it was the first introduction I had to multiple belief systems and how they might have arisen.

You might ask around discretely- maybe you have a non-believer in the closet somewhere. Look for people like the missing grandpa, or the ostrasized aunt, or a crazy cousin.



(And don't correct my spelling. Maybe I do it on purpose to confuse you.)

[Luciano]

My mom is very Catholic and very anticlerical and she wasn't worried when I became buddhist 18 years ago at 28.
It's true I am an atheist from 18 y.o. and an anticlerical from 10 y.o.
She cried a little 2 years later when my sister too became buddhist but we never had a fight over religion, she hate priests even more than us:D

Luciano

[RandFan]

I was the most active in my family. I held leadership positions in my church (Mormon) and I served a two year mission. A great source of pride for my family.

I haven't told them. I have given subtle hints though. It would devistate my mother who belives that "families are forever". I will be seperated from her in the after life and that is what she fears more than anything else.

I'm staying in the closet. Funny, I never dreamed I would say that.

[Tony]

I plan on staying in the closet too. It just isn't any of my parent's business.

[Gestahl]

Originally posted by Suezoled
How old are you?
Are you living at home?
Are you dependent on them financially at all?
Do they acknowledge you're an adult?
Are you an adult?

Very pertinent questions...:

23
No
No
I suppose... they never have treated me in a manner otherwise, except under religious pretenses (honor thy father and mother and all that).
By what standards? I consider myself a mature, thoughtful person if that's what you mean. Legally I am.

[Gestahl]

Originally posted by Wrath of the Swarm
It could be worse. Your father could be an Orthodox Christian priest.

Fundatmentalist Head Deacon is as close as you can get ;-).

[Gestahl]

Originally posted by evildave
It's the classic question.

Do you feel *guilty* for not being exactly what they want you to be, like some sort of robot?


No... not really. I feel guilty for leading them on and making them believe I still believe their faith, which is important to them.


Do you feel compelled to *confess* your "sin"?


No. I feel compelled to tell the truth to the people that are important in my life and that I have respect for.


You could simply leave them ignorant of your choices. After all, they'll probably just go ballistic when you tell them.

Just leave them to their little assumptions and habits, lead a prayer for turkey day or whatever when it comes up socially, and only ever tell them the truth if they ever directly question you about this issue.


They do directly question me all the time whether I have found a church, I have to go to church with them when I visit and play along with the extended "church family", etc. You have to understand how interwoven religion is into the family, and how very hard it is to "fit in" and not go nuts.


You probably never told them exactly about the first time you had sex, or other little things as well.

They never asked, except once whether I had ever and I told them the truth and that I wasn't stupid, and was playing it safe. We still had a very long talk... The problem is I have inquisitive parents, and we have always had an open policy of truth... my parents have had to tell me some very hard truths as well. It is not ethical to lie to them, but the consequences may outweigh taking the higher moral road here.

[Silicon]

That depends on whether the higher moral road is acually truth!

I agree, it's hard to square lying with being moral and respectful to them.

That's why privacy is perhaps a better goal.

If I were you, I'd have an open and honest discussion about your new decision to hold your own beliefs privately from now on.

Discuss, at length, how their beliefs are so strong, and so interlinked with their love/desire to control, that you need to seperate your relationship with them from your relationship with God in order to find your own personal spiritual path, and also to not make you have to decide between family and that spiritual path.

DO NOT enter into a discussion of what that path is, only that it should be private to you. Tell them you won't be taking part in whatever rituals you don't want to any more.

That's what I'd do. I'd say it's personal, between me and God (I'd actually use the word God instead of "me and nothing", because it's the only answer they'll understand. When in rome, speak roman.)

Of course, just for the sheer Jerry Springer family torn apart, sparks fly, huge screaming confrontation, I'd love to see the crater caused by hashing it all out. There's a part of me that would love to hash it out with my family as well, and may the most reasoned arguer be left standing. But I know that the cost would be too high for me, and I feel that the people in my family who hold those beliefs will not take part in a rational reasoned debate on the subject. They will erect personal blinders and full-steam-ahead with the "God said it, I believe it, that settles it" sophistry.


Of course, I'm not 23. At 23 I gave much more of a damn what my parents thought of me than I do now. That faded for me, as I stopped being their child and started being a parent of my own. You may find that some of your desire to tell them and be honest is tied up with your desire to please them as their child, and to show them that you have grown up a rational thinker and a strongly moral one at that.

You'll need to divest yourself of the feeling that they will be open to that, and it's your job to prove that to them. They may never, acually they PROBABLY never will come to that conclusion. As the serenity prayer goes, Give me the serenity to accept the things that I cannot change, and the Wisdom to know the difference. As they say in AlAnon, you cannot be responsible for them, only for yourself.

Good luck. Let us know how it goes!

[smalltlalk_2k]

If you tell them they will probably either:

1. Worry that Satan has taken you over, and try to stage an intervention.
2. Never talk to you again.
3. Say that it is ok that you believe it but they will worry about you and your soul until the day they die.
4. Tell everyone they know, so that the whole town thinks you are Satan incarnate or a lost soul that needs saving by long talks about God and his forgiveness.
5. some form of all of the above.
Truthfull talks about athiesm rarely go well. Sometimes they do but mostly they don't.

It all depends on what you think they might do in responce to finding out. If you think that they might do either of the 3 above then just let it drop. It's just not worth the headache. At least it wasn't for me. Its kind of wierd when an old woman you don't know in town comes up and thrusts a cross in your face and tries to do an on the street soul saving.

[Gestahl]

I had requests to let people know how it went... and I think some very salient discussion points were brought up, and how backed into a corner both of us were because of the vehemence and dichotomy between our stances. Note this is *extremely* condensed, toned down, and paraphrased.

G - Me
D - Dad
M - Mom

G - I no longer believe in the inerrancy of the Bible.
(Cites examples of bats, geneologies, Solomon's pool, and onflicting Gospels.)

M - The bible has never been proven absolutely wrong... *ever*.

G - Cites more examples. You have to at least admit that these books were written by falliable humans with cultural, political and even religious biases, and of course were limited to the ideas, languages and concepts of the time.

M - Of course, but they were divinely inspired, making the "core" of the message infalliable.

G - Really? I am going to write a book that claims it is divinely inspired with flowery language, and inerrant. If you find something wrong in it, I will claim you are just not interpreting it correctly.

M - But you are not divinely inspired. Plus, with God all things are possible.

G - What makes you think the authors of the Bible were? Is the Bible being wrong a possible thing with God?

M - Now you are just making fun of me and being blasphemous... how rude.

G - No, I am not making fun of you, I am trying to point out the absurdities in your statements.

<Snip about another 30 minutes of discussion, with me citing "apparent" biblical contradictions and absurdities, and her claiming that they are not, just errors in my interpretation.>

M - I understanding your concerns, and all I can say is "The Truth will come when God is ready to reveal it."

G - Fair enough. In the meantime, I will continue being skeptical and dubious of God until such time as He reveals himself.

D - (After an hour of sitting thoughtfully throughout the first half). But God will not reveal himself to those who do not seek him.

G - But I am seeking him, just through logic, science, and rational thought.

D - That is a fool's errand son. God is supernatural, above logic, science, and rationality. God comes from the soul, you know that!

<Note that here, my father has stripped me of all argumentative points. Not to mention his as well.>

G - However, if God is above all that, how do I know I am not deluding myself? You say to believe and pray and the answers will come, but if you repeat questions and beliefs enough, you will make up your own answers and believe they are divinely inspired if that's what you were looking for. Plus, God says in his scripture to test what he says, and to look to creation for his wonder and glory. I see no such evidence. Added to that, if God is above rationality, logic, and science, then how in the world can we say anything about him at all? Don't you want *T*ruth rather than what you want to believe?

D - (Note the extreme Eastern leanings in these statements). These things are put there for the purposes of communication. God is perfect, we are not, and any communication will be faulty (see the biblical inerrancy discussion above). You have to do your thinking here *points to chest*.

<Any Tao you can speak of is not the true Tao>.
<Seeking an enlightened state through meditiation and the soul>.

G - Emotional thinking leads to holocausts, bigotry, hate, and distrust of others. The rational mind is there to control, monitor, and check the emotions. Usually when I act emotionally, I am flat out *wrong*.

We went back and forth, him saying I have to go to church and seek his face (according to him, fellowship with Chrisitians is a must). I reply that that leads to "groupthink", and if you listen to anything long enough, you will start to believe it ("There are four lights!!!"). If I can't use my rational mind, then I don't have a belief, I have an assumption by repitition. I pulled out several scientific tests of prayer affects, and Dad pulls out the verse about not testing God (look at Christ's temptation in scripture). In direct contradiction to an earlier statement he made above (I did not catch it at the time). He flat out said he searched for 40 years in the world, and could not find him, and I said that should tell you something ;-).

*sigh* Score: 3 hours, no conclusions or resolutions, but the cat is out of the bag now. Oh, and my mother is praying for me, for all the good *I* think it will do. But at least I think I convinced them of the folly of literal biblical inerrancy.

Final Words: It seems whenever I discuss religion, the weights are stacked against me, because I can't prove God doesn't exist, and I even allow that he might. When you assume the existence of a God, it is the mother of all assumptions because you can prove anything using God, and nothing is impossible. Reminds me of the man that built his house upon the sand ;-). This makes arguing with someone pointless. In order to have a meaningful conversation, it seems, we both have to be debating from the same assumptions in this case.

[Suezoled]

Well done Gestahl.

Such things are never easy. Well done though.

[evildave]

Well, welcome to the fold, black sheep!

More of the family will begin to react over the comming year. Some few of them may stop talking to you. If you're lucky, it will mostly be just a little undercurrent for family 'politics'.

If you're really lucky, one or two other family members will take you aside and confide "me too".

[Silicon]

Thanks for the update.

Let us know how it proceeds. I just can't imagine doing that myself, but I'm really interested in what happens next.

[Wrath of the Swarm]

Ask them about the guy in the Old Testament who, when instructed by God to do something, demanded proof: he left a piece of wool outside and asked that it be made wet with dew in the morning although everything else would be dry. The next morning, the wool was wet and everything else was dry, so he then asked God to leave the wool dry and make everything else wet with dew.

"Don't test God" my foot.

[Gestahl]

Originally posted by Wrath of the Swarm
Ask them about the guy in the Old Testament who, when instructed by God to do something, demanded proof: he left a piece of wool outside and asked that it be made wet with dew in the morning although everything else would be dry. The next morning, the wool was wet and everything else was dry, so he then asked God to leave the wool dry and make everything else wet with dew.

"Don't test God" my foot.

"Jesus said to him, 'On the other hand it is written, "You shall not put the Lord your God to the test."'" - Matthew 4:7

he is quoting...

"Ye shall not tempt the LORD your God, as ye tempted him in Massah." - Deuteronomy 6:16

In context, Massah was where Moses struck the rock with his staff and a fountain gushed forth. He did this because the people were failing in their faith and wanted proof God was still with them (this is during the 40 year desert fest). Just because someone does something in the Bible and God humors them, doesn't mean he likes it ;-).

Interesting point... my father said "You honestly don't expect God to display his power undeniably just to satisfy your doubts do you?"

My response was if he was really caring and benevolent and all that, he would know the only way I could believe in him would be if this happened, and if he wants me up there with him one day, he should show himself. He seemed to do it in the Old Days, I wonder why not now? (Goes back and considers the increasingly exaggerative nature of myths over time...).

In any event, if you tried to test God, he could just confuse the results to make you *think* the test failed... but why would any entity strive for his existence to be falsely refuted?

[Gestahl]

Originally posted by evildave
Well, welcome to the fold, black sheep!

More of the family will begin to react over the comming year. Some few of them may stop talking to you. If you're lucky, it will mostly be just a little undercurrent for family 'politics'.

If you're really lucky, one or two other family members will take you aside and confide "me too".

My grandmother and dad are pretty understanding of it, and they confided they were at this point too, only they finally settled on Christianity being true. I think the reality will hit when they realize that its not that I have intellectual problems with it and want to still be a Christian, its that I dont *want* to be a Christian either.

[Silicon]

Oh, that God sure is tricksey!

He'd prove His existance to you, but only if He could deny it later!

Here's where you trot out the well-reasoned profanity, Gestahl. Say to your dad:


"But isn't that reasoning just a religious double-whammy uber mind-f**k? If you have to crawl that far up your own ass so that your reasoning makes sense, chances are it only makes sense to you."


(Not sure that would really work, but I do think sometimes saying shocking things like that can jolt people out of their own shells.)


Have fun. Let us know what they hit you with in the next volley. Something tells me your family won't let it lie.

[VicDaring]

Gestahl
We went back and forth, him saying I have to go to church and seek his face (according to him, fellowship with Chrisitians is a must). I reply that that leads to "groupthink", and if you listen to anything long enough, you will start to believe it ("There are four lights!!!").

Did dad catch the Next Generation reference?

When I read that, it triggered something in my mind, and I found it pretty quickly here:
Four Lights Essay (http://www.wildlink.com/freelink/writing/4lights.htm)

Not a bad piece of writing and fits nicely in this thread.

[Silicon]

Love that 4 lights essay. Fantastic.

[Gestahl]

Originally posted by VicDaring
Gestahl


Did dad catch the Next Generation reference?

When I read that, it triggered something in my mind, and I found it pretty quickly here:
Four Lights Essay (http://www.wildlink.com/freelink/writing/4lights.htm)

Not a bad piece of writing and fits nicely in this thread.

Both parents are avid fans and got the reference. It was actually a very effective point, it made them think for a while before responding (meaning they are actually thinking... a good thing). I was hoping someone here would ;-).

[Gestahl]

Originally posted by VicDaring
Gestahl


Did dad catch the Next Generation reference?

When I read that, it triggered something in my mind, and I found it pretty quickly here:
Four Lights Essay (http://www.wildlink.com/freelink/writing/4lights.htm)

Not a bad piece of writing and fits nicely in this thread.

Wow, nice essay. I am going to show it to my parents, along with "Kissing Hank's Ass", when the time is "right". Sometimes you just have to put things in different words on such an emotionally laden subject.

[Silicon]

Have them read the four lights essay, and then think it over for awhile.


(any star trek fan would have to agree!)


I actually started a good deal of my journey toward atheism when I learned that Gene Roddenberry was an atheist. He had an amazing quote when someone asked if he believed in God. He said (something to this effect) "No, I'm not superstitious at all."

That really got me thinking to the point where I couldn't find any test which would discriminate between a religious belief and a superstitious one. It was all or nothing, at that point. Either I believed in all of superstitious thoughts, or none of them.

I decided on a third route, I'd look at each claim seperately, on the merits of each claim and the evidence presented.

Which brought me to being an agnostic atheist.