Autocrucifixion

[Jas]

Autocrucifixion (http://www.bangordailynews.com/editorialnews/articles/418988_031604nocrimeseeninm_skileymack.cfm)

Wouldn't he have figured out BEFOREHAND (pun intended), that he wouldn't be able to nail in both of them by himself?

[Badger]

Maybe he thought he'd use his thick skull to pound in the other nail.

[Yahweh]

"When he realized that he was unable to nail his other hand to the board, he called 911," said Boucher. It was unclear whether the man was seeking assistance for his injury or help in nailing his other hand down.
It seems no matter how well you may have thought something out, there exists that one minor detail unexpected which seems to ruin the whole day...

[roger]

Originally posted by Jas
Autocrucifixion (http://www.bangordailynews.com/editorialnews/articles/418988_031604nocrimeseeninm_skileymack.cfm)

Wouldn't he have figured out BEFOREHAND (pun intended), that he wouldn't be able to nail in both of them by himself? You wood think so. Boy, I bet he felt cross when he realized his mistake. How is he going to explain to his friends why his hand is now holey? The police really ought to nail him for this.

[neutrino_cannon]

I wonder if Jesus could wlak on water after he had those holes punched through his feet.

Blast, and I thought this was a thread about welding Yugos to crosses.



Blimey! That has to hurt (to be that dumb)!

[riverlethe]

Originally posted by neutrino_cannon
I wonder if Jesus could wlak on water after he had those holes punched through his feet.

Blast, and I thought this was a thread about welding Yugos to crosses.



Blimey! That has to hurt (to be that dumb)!

Of course he could, with quantum physics. QUANTUM PHYSICS!

[c4ts]

It was a suicide attempt and yet they say there was no crime involved?

[evildave]

Maybe the people of Bangor Maine have a fairly progressive view of what 'right to die' means.

Especially when you consider the cost to take care of one suicidal wacko in a facility versus the cost of one body bag.

Consider an emergency crew had to go to his house, cut him down and take him to a hospital, etc., and he almost certainly had to have the whole state mandated 3 (or more) day hospital evaluation, counseling, possible extended stay, etc. What a burden on the good taxpayers.

Maybe they should have counseling on quick, safe*, effective, relatively clean suicide techniques that don't result in morons making 9-1-1 calls with a big nail through one hand. Even if the guy could find a way to nail himself up, he'd only rip his hands apart and fall off (ALIVE), anyway.

* Yes, by definition "safety" is not the goal of a suicide, but by 'safe', I mean relatively painless, and not likely to injure other people.

[abramis]

Hmmm.... This got me thinking. I work with people who are mentally ill, but who live in their own home, and live kind of a normal life, that is, they don´t have jobs, but they spend an hour or two at centers for people with similar conditions.But otherwise they cook their own food, and clean their appartments, take out the trash and so forth. Their diagnosis range from schizophrenia to autism, or deep depression. They are often on heavy drugs to keep them functional, and it is interesting to see when, at times, they forget or refuse their medication. Several of those with schizophrenia claim to be talking to god or seeing angels, and they can become very aggressive or frightened. Some claim to see or being Jesus or the devil. One with depression fears the wrath of God, and is not able to be outdoors at those times.

I think at least a couple of them would be able, when they are in this condition, to nail themselves to a cross or hurt themselves claiming to have divine powers. I think that when those things make the headlines, not many readers think about the reason why people do that crazy stuff. But I suspect that mentall illness could be a factor in some of the cases.

Since I began working with those people, I don´t find these articles as funny anymore....

Just a personal reflection.

[Brian the Snail]

Originally posted by evildave
Maybe the people of Bangor Maine have a fairly progressive view of what 'right to die' means.

Especially when you consider the cost to take care of one suicidal wacko in a facility versus the cost of one body bag.

Consider an emergency crew had to go to his house, cut him down and take him to a hospital, etc., and he almost certainly had to have the whole state mandated 3 (or more) day hospital evaluation, counseling, possible extended stay, etc. What a burden on the good taxpayers.

Maybe they should have counseling on quick, safe*, effective, relatively clean suicide techniques that don't result in morons making 9-1-1 calls with a big nail through one hand. Even if the guy could find a way to nail himself up, he'd only rip his hands apart and fall off (ALIVE), anyway.

* Yes, by definition "safety" is not the goal of a suicide, but by 'safe', I mean relatively painless, and not likely to injure other people.

The guy obviously has some kind of mental problem. What he needs is some kind of treatment for that, not counselling on more effective ways to kill himself.

Nobody chooses to have a mental illness, just like nobody chooses to have any other illness. Given that, I think a little bit of compassion might be in order here, don't you?

[LuxFerum]

Originally posted by Jas
Wouldn't he have figured out BEFOREHAND (pun intended), that he wouldn't be able to nail in both of them by himself?
:roll: :roll:

[Kantu]

No, wait. There actually WOULD have been a way to do this.

I remember reading about it in a non-fiction book about cirkus freaks, "Freaks: We Who Are not as Others," I think the title was. One of the featured people was "Mortado the Crucified Man." Born normal, he achieved freakdom by having holes bored through his hands and feet, making him appear crucified. Wooden plugs had to be kept in the holes so that they would not grow shut again.

His act consisted of acting out what had supposedly happened to him in "darkest Africa" when the natives nailed him in a tree (hands straight over his head and standing on the ground; presumably they nailed his feet on a root or something...) Another trick involved squirting water through the holes, earning him the name "The Human Fountain."

Eventually the act got old and Mortado vanished from public view. The author reminisced that several years later there was a story in the newspapers about a man who had crucified himself (was it in a subway tunnel? Somewhere public anyway. D*mn it, where's the book?!), and since this is a clear impossibility for any anatomically normal human being, could this have been the last desperate performance of Mortado...?


(And this was my first post, by the way. What a lovely introductory topic. Go me.)

[evildave]

Originally posted by Brian the Snail


The guy obviously has some kind of mental problem. What he needs is some kind of treatment for that, not counselling on more effective ways to kill himself.

Nobody chooses to have a mental illness, just like nobody chooses to have any other illness. Given that, I think a little bit of compassion might be in order here, don't you?


If someone was dying of the final stages of terminal cancer, with tumors growing everywhere in their brain and body, in ever-increasing pain and ever-growing dementia, if they wanted to kill themselves, I have no problem with it.

If they wanted to die BEFORE they reached that stage, I have no problem with that, either.

If they have MENTAL disability to the point where it's terminal (i.e. suicidal), I have no problem with them killing themselves for that, either.

Better than "fixing" them to a point where they harm others in their search for escape, instead. How many murder-suicides could have been simply suicides if people were instructed on how to do it?

I say hold the door open and let them out as fast as they want to go.

Or would you rather have these people suffer the most debasing, "socially unacceptable" kind of illnesses? People who are *crazy* will drive away more people than people with an infectious disease.

Especially when you have a nation that doesn't want to "socialize" medicine. That means they go for the "quick fix" as often as possible, put people on some drugs (without a way to pay for a refill) and then kick them out the door.

Do you honestly think in this climate that people could actually be "cured" of their conditions? I doubt it. You think we'll find a way to make their utterly miserable lives better?

Hey! They can live in a hospital with lots of OTHER crazy people! Just fill up prison-like hospitals with the mentally "unfit" and warehouse them indefinitely. That will magically make them "better" for sure. At least then people like you will feel better, knowing they're being "treated".

[Brian the Snail]

Originally posted by evildave

If someone was dying of the final stages of terminal cancer, with tumors growing everywhere in their brain and body, in ever-increasing pain and ever-growing dementia, if they wanted to kill themselves, I have no problem with it.

If they wanted to die BEFORE they reached that stage, I have no problem with that, either.

I have little problem with euthanasia either, but that's not what I'm talking about.

If they have MENTAL disability to the point where it's terminal (i.e. suicidal), I have no problem with them killing themselves for that, either.

Really? How would you feel if it was a friend or a family member?

Better than "fixing" them to a point where they harm others in their search for escape, instead. How many murder-suicides could have been simply suicides if people were instructed on how to do it?

I don't know, you tell me. I would guess pretty much none, especially in those cases where the primary motive is murder, and suicide follows when people can't deal with the consequences of their actions. Murder-suicides are pretty rare anyway, and it doesn't apply to this case.

I say hold the door open and let them out as fast as they want to go.

Or would you rather have these people suffer the most debasing, "socially unacceptable" kind of illnesses? People who are *crazy* will drive away more people than people with an infectious disease.

Surely the obvious solution to that is to try to change social attitudes, and there are people who are working towards that. Progress has been made already- mental illness has much less stigma attached to it than in the past.

Especially when you have a nation that doesn't want to "socialize" medicine. That means they go for the "quick fix" as often as possible, put people on some drugs (without a way to pay for a refill) and then kick them out the door.

I can't comment on what happens in the US since I'm not American. Needless to say, in other countries, the system of care is not perfect either. Again, the obvious solution would be to improve this situation, but that would require the political will to do so.

Do you honestly think in this climate that people could actually be "cured" of their conditions? I doubt it. You think we'll find a way to make their utterly miserable lives better?

I don't know about "cured", but many mental illnesses can be treated quite effectively, and their lives can get better. If that's not happening, try changing the climate.

Hey! They can live in a hospital with lots of OTHER crazy people! Just fill up prison-like hospitals with the mentally "unfit" and warehouse them indefinitely. That will magically make them "better" for sure. At least then people like you will feel better, knowing they're being "treated".

No, that wouldn't make me feel better. That's not solving the problem, it's just sweeping it under the carpet.

[evildave]

Originally posted by Brian the Snail

Really? How would you feel if it was a friend or a family member?



About the same way if they had died of cancer, or a heart attack, or an auto wreck. Why should ending their own life tug at my heart strings any differently than having a rock fall on them while they're out hiking?

Indeed, a great many suicides are arranged to look 'accidental' or 'natural'. Many elderly will die of "natural causes" when they stop taking their medications after some tragedy like the loss of their spouse. Sitting alone in their dark, quiet and lonely home with nobody to talk to. It's easy to "forget" those pills.

Then there are all of those "cleaning a gun" suicides. And the "fixing the electic" suicides. Perhaps more than a few drownings and such, too. Plenty of car wrecks on lonely highways. "Accidental" overdoses and poisonings. Hikes in the wilderness that end in "disappearances".



I don't know, you tell me. I would guess pretty much none, especially in those cases where the primary motive is murder, and suicide follows when people can't deal with the consequences of their actions. Murder-suicides are pretty rare anyway, and it doesn't apply to this case.




Only the future will tell. Perhaps when we hear about "the guy who took out a Wendy's full of kids had tried to crucify himself a few years ago", we'll know.

And you have it backwards. Usually the killer wants to die, but can't pull it off, so they look for something to do that they definitely "can't live with": killing their children, or whatever. 'Suicide by cop' is also a common occurrence. Get a good car chase on the 5:00pm news, jump out of the car and point a gun at the cops. Fire a gun to keep their interest up. They know they've got an automatic sentense of three years for the car chase, and 10 years for the gunfire by the time they pull over, surrounded by helicopters and hyped up cops. Happens a lot in Los Angeles. Especially around the holidays. Practically a Thanksgiving Tradition.

And in case you think this is just *MY* opinion, it's time for you to do a little reading (i.e. self education) about the psychology behind murder-suicides.

http://www.oranous.com/humane/suicide-murder.html

http://www.findarticles.com/cf_dls/m0BJI/11_31/76333402/p1/article.jhtml

http://www.emu.edu/ctp/bse-vanwormer.html

Think about it. Does someone REALLY want to kill their babies, or would they do anything to "get out"? They want out. They think that doing the most awful thing possible will make them hate themselves enough to turn the gun on themselves... and often THEY STILL CAN'T DO IT. So then comes the police stand-off and the whole media circus (yet again). Hey, and if they survive getting arrested, they can get... THE DEATH PENALTY! Goody! Someone else to pull the trigger!

It's a thin line between murdering one's self and murdering others. If you're just about up to killing yourself, you're generally well past past killing others. It's easier to point the gun AWAY from you than towards yourself. Try it some time. Even a non-lethal taser. You know it won't kill you. I bet you can't even taser yourself (unless you're a klutz and do it accidentally).

This is why when someone "wants out", it would be nice to simply hold the door open for them and tell them their family will be taken care of. Maybe give them a little counseling first, but generally just let them out.



Surely the obvious solution to that is to try to change social attitudes, and there are people who are working towards that. Progress has been made already- mental illness has much less stigma attached to it than in the past.



True. But the "obvious" solution isn't always the best. Why attach so much extra 'stigma' to someone who selects to opt out? Give them a hand.



I can't comment on what happens in the US since I'm not American. Needless to say, in other countries, the system of care is not perfect either. Again, the obvious solution would be to improve this situation, but that would require the political will to do so.



And don't forget the money, hence taxes to do so.



I don't know about "cured", but many mental illnesses can be treated quite effectively, and their lives can get better. If that's not happening, try changing the climate.



Yes, but when the medication stops, the symptoms usually return. And when someone's as screwed up as crucifix man, they're not likely to have a good line on the prescription drugs that are designed to help them. Quite the opposite, in fact. Far easier for them to get the illegal drugs that probably did the primary damage in the first place.

A $175 plastic bottle with 28 doses of drugs to "fix" their brain, but still be a miserable loser, versus $20 for some crack or herioine in a baggy to make them feel "really good" for a little while.

No, that wouldn't make me feel better. That's not solving the problem, it's just sweeping it under the carpet.

People WANT their morality projected onto the "other" people, but then they don't want to be bothered by the consequences.

You don't want people "doing drugs"? Let's have a 30 year "War On Drugs" that only supports the price and makes the drugs more dangerous. 3% of the U.S. population is already incarcerated.

You don't want people "committing suicide" to put themselves out of their misery (either physical, mental or both)? Then lock them away. The cheapest and most politically expedient and simplistic solution (which given the fundy moralist twits we get as political candidates in America, is exactly what we'll get) is to make it a "crime", and lock away everyone who might commit suicide until the state feels like they won't hurt themselves. More prison space being built every day, anyway. Of course, the very locking away will do nothing good for their self esteem, nor will it prepare them to live their life "normally", so really all you do is lock people away and FORCE THEM TO SUFFER. Or maybe medicate them into vegetables while trying to force "Jesus" down their throats (see previous comment about fundy twits). Great.

This sort of "morality" that prolongs suffering doesn't really sound all that moral, really.

All of this said, yes there are young people who will commit suicide over something that seems small to you or me, as adults with perspective, who know such feelings pass. Identifying them quickly and giving them the help they need might do good. Of course, what to do to identify a 13 year old's "mood swing" that kills them within the hour is anybody's guess.

The only thing that would guarantee "no suicides" would be making sure that nobody is ever left alone. No one is ever uncared for. No one is ever left with nobody to talk to, or watch over them. Of course, that would mean radical changes to our whole society. No "privacy" at all, at least within a family group and/or circle of friends.

The obvious "solution" that the fruity religious fundy right would come up with in response to my previous paragraph would be "Jesus". "Jesus is always there." I'm sure for that portion of the population that is capable of earnestly believing in imaginary friends, that could even work. Not all mental illness is necessarily "all bad", after all. I'm sure there are at least as many people who owe their lives to "finding religion" as there were people who were killed by religion. Maybe they can work out how to reliably make people hear Voices and see Visions and believe certain specific garbage about them, they can dose them up and brainwash them properly to believe that Voice in their head is "God". Of course, always making sure the "God" in their head doesn't tell them to "kill, kill, kill" would be a neat trick.