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RichardR
17th March 2004, 10:06 AM
Or perhaps not.

I wondered if anyone had any thoughts on this Alternet article (http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=18147) which claims that there is no such thing as a "free market" and that the "middle class" is the creation of government intervention in the marketplace.

I can debunk some of this debunking myself, but there are some aspects that I am unsure of, especially (as a foreigner in this land), some of the historical claims. I have quoted some passages below (I hope I haven't quoted too much), and would be interested in any views.

Governments provide a stable currency to make markets possible. They provide a legal infrastructure and court systems to enforce the contracts that make markets possible… I would agree that the success of the free market depends in part upon a system of laws and other infrastructure etc. and I doubt if anyone but the most extreme Libertarians would say otherwise. In any case the free market is not debunked by this, IMO.

Which explains why conservative economics wiped out the middle class during the period from 1880 to 1932, and why, when Reagan again began applying conservative economics, the middle class again began to vanish in America in the 1980s Does this make sense to anyone?

Which requires us to puncture the second balloon of popular belief. The "middle class" is not the natural result of freeing business to do whatever it wants, of "free and open markets," or of "free trade." The "middle class" is not a normal result of "free markets." Those policies will produce a small but powerful wealthy class, a small "middle" mercantilist class, and a huge and terrified worker class which have traditionally been called "serfs." I would have thought the middle class was a result of both political and economic freedom, although I admit I haven't studied cause and effect very closely.

When conservatives rail in the media of the dangers of "returning to Smoot Hawley, which created the Great Depression," all they do is reveal their ignorance of economics and history. The Smoot-Hawley tariff legislation, which increased taxes on some imported goods by a third to two-thirds to protect American industries, was signed into law on June 17, 1930, well into the Great Depression. In the following two years, international trade dropped from 6 percent of GNP to roughly 2 percent of GNP (between 1930 and 1932), but most of that was the result of the depression going worldwide, not Smoot-Hawley. The main result of Smoot-Hawley was that American businesses now had strong financial incentives to do business with other American companies, rather than bring in products made with cheaper foreign labor: Americans started trading with other Americans. Does anyone claim that protectionist policies caused the depression? Surely the issue is, did the protectionist measures make things better or worse?

Of course, they can't explain how it was that the repeated series of huge tax cuts for the wealthy by the Herbert Hoover administration brought us the Great Depression, while raising taxes to provide for an active and interventionist government to protect the rights of labor to organize throughout the 1930s, 1940s, and 1950s led us to the Golden Age of the American Middle Class. (The top tax rate in 1930 under Hoover was 25 percent, and even that was only paid by about a fifth of wealthy Americans. Thirty years later, the top tax rate was 91 percent, and held at 70 percent until Reagan began dismantling the middle class. As the top rate dropped, so did the middle class it helped create.) Again, cause and effect. Following this logic, we should increase taxes back to 70% (or maybe 91%) and prosperity will be resumed.

Most of the Founders advocated – and all ultimately passed – tariffs to protect domestic industries and workers. I snipped a lot of argument from authority quoting the Founders.

Seventy years later, Abraham Lincoln actively stood up for the right for labor to organize, intervening in several strikes to stop corporations and local governments from using hired goon squads to beat and murder strikers. I just know that Shane will have something to say about that.

American reaction to these disparities gave birth to the Populist, Progressive, and modern Labor movements. Two generations later, Franklin Roosevelt brought us out of Herbert Hoover's conservative-economics-produced Great Depression and bequeathed us with more than a half-century of prosperity. Am I the only one who is irritated by the left's appropriation of the word "progressive" to describe its policies? Calling a policy progressive doesn't make it so, although this new meaning of the word (and its implication) seems to have passed unnoticed into the lexicon.

Is there an alternative view of what brought the US out of the depression? I'd be interested if anyone has any references on this that I could read.

Snide
17th March 2004, 10:36 AM
Originally posted by RichardR
Am I the only one who is irritated by the left's appropriation of the word "progressive" to describe its policies? Calling a policy progressive doesn't make it so, although this new meaning of the word (and its implication) seems to have passed unnoticed into the lexicon.

Yes, but I'm no more bothered by that than the right misusing "liberal" as something negative. I'm generous and open-minded. That's a bad thing?

Is there an alternative view of what brought the US out of the depression? I'd be interested if anyone has any references on this that I could read.
Shane's previous posts are pretty spot on. Freeing up the money and WWII.

(edited for clarity)

The idea
17th March 2004, 10:43 AM
Originally posted by RichardR
"Franklin Roosevelt brought us out of [...] [the] Great Depression and bequeathed us with more than a half-century of prosperity."

Is there an alternative view of what brought the US out of the depression? [emphasis mine]
Although one might oppose Franklin Roosevelt's policies, it might be a good idea for one to refer to him as a "who" rather than as a "what".;)

Quite seriously now, in the nonalternative view, what brought the US out of the depression? (I do mean "what", not "who.")

Tony
17th March 2004, 11:04 AM
Yes, but I'm no more bothered by that than the right misusing "liberal" as something negative. I'm generous and open-minded. That's a bad thing?

I don't think it’s the "conservatives" who are to blame (not to say that they aren't completely innocent) for making the word_liberal_ a bad word as much is those who profess to be "liberal". When you advocate authoritarian and oppressive policies (like high taxation) don't be upset when people start to see through the charade.

RichardR
17th March 2004, 11:26 AM
Originally posted by Snide
Yes, but I'm no more bothered by that than the right misusing "liberal" as something negative. I'm generous and open-minded. That's a bad thing?Tu Quoque (http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/ad-hominem-tu-quoque.html) is a fallacy, of course. The Right misusing "liberal" does not mean that the left misappropriating "progressive" is correct.

Reager
17th March 2004, 11:27 AM
Originally posted by Tony


I don't think it’s the "conservatives" who are to blame (not to say that they aren't completely innocent) for making the word_liberal_ a bad word as much is those who profess to be "liberal". When you advocate authoritarian and oppressive policies (like high taxation) don't be upset when people start to see through the charade.

It's amazing, all of the reasons given why "liberals" are so horrible. Apparantly they are oppressive bleeding-hearts, civil liberty defending elitist authoritarians, and pacifist appeasers who want the US to police the world...all at the same time!

Mike

RichardR
17th March 2004, 11:28 AM
Originally posted by Tony
I don't think it’s the "conservatives" who are to blame (not to say that they aren't completely innocent) for making the word_liberal_ a bad word as much is those who profess to be "liberal". When you advocate authoritarian and oppressive policies (like high taxation) don't be upset when people start to see through the charade. They are to blame when they define their meaning of the word "liberal", and then use that definition as a slur, without addressing the liberal's actual arguments.

Tony
17th March 2004, 11:36 AM
Originally posted by mfeldman

Apparantly they are oppressive bleeding-hearts, civil liberty defending elitist authoritarians, and pacifist appeasers who want the US to police the world...all at the same time!


They are?

Tony
17th March 2004, 11:38 AM
Originally posted by RichardR
They are to blame when they define their meaning of the word "liberal", and then use that definition as a slur, without addressing the liberal's actual arguments.

What is their definition of liberal?

c0rbin
17th March 2004, 11:41 AM
"I would have thought the middle class was a result of both political and economic freedom, although I admit I haven't studied cause and effect very closely. "

I would agree with your assessment of freedom being the starting point for a middle class.

The reason they are "middle" is because they are neither peasant (bound to the lord who owns the land on which they work for food, shelter and protection), nor are they the lord (bound only to greater lords and to God--when convenient).

The middle class was historically free to move around the world an make their own way without leave of the aristocracy.

In the US, we haven't the same legacy of aristocracy, just working stiffs who made good and were able to acrue so much via that personal freedom that their wealth became something that outlived them.

Reager
17th March 2004, 11:45 AM
Originally posted by Tony


They are?


They are according to the many (supposedly) derrogatory, and contradictory, labels hurled their way...

Mike

Tony
17th March 2004, 11:46 AM
Originally posted by mfeldman



They are according to the many (supposedly) derrogatory, and contradictory, labels hurled their way...



But that's not something I ascribe to, so why bring it up?

Snide
17th March 2004, 11:46 AM
Originally posted by Tony


I don't think it’s the "conservatives" who are to blame (not to say that they aren't completely innocent) for making the word_liberal_ a bad word as much is those who profess to be "liberal". When you advocate authoritarian and oppressive policies (like high taxation) don't be upset when people start to see through the charade.

I didn't say conservatives, I said the "right." I'm quite conservative in many aspects myself, but I'm not part of "the right."

Point well taken though..."progressive" is just such another euphemism.

(edited to flip-flop two words)

Tony
17th March 2004, 11:50 AM
Originally posted by Snide


I didn't say conservatives, I said the "right."

My bad. :)

Reager
17th March 2004, 12:00 PM
Originally posted by Tony


But that's not something I ascribe to, so why bring it up?

Because the topic of conversation is not limited to what you ascribe to.

Mike

Snide
17th March 2004, 12:02 PM
Originally posted by RichardR
Tu Quoque (http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/ad-hominem-tu-quoque.html) is a fallacy, of course. The Right misusing "liberal" does not mean that the left misappropriating "progressive" is correct.

Which would be a terrific counter if this were an actual debate, and I had used it as an argument.

In reality, I just threw it out there as an additional observation.

RichardR
17th March 2004, 12:15 PM
Originally posted by Tony
What is their definition of liberal? You said "authoritarian and oppressive policies". That's what I mean by defining the meaning of liberal without actually addressing any liberal arguments.

RichardR
17th March 2004, 12:18 PM
Originally posted by Snide
Which would be a terrific counter if this were an actual debate, and I had used it as an argument.

In reality, I just threw it out there as an additional observation. No offense meant. I was just pointing it out, for anyone else who might be tempted to use that argument. :)

Tony
17th March 2004, 12:19 PM
Originally posted by RichardR
You said "authoritarian and oppressive policies". That's what I mean by defining the meaning of liberal without actually addressing any liberal arguments.

But I never defined "liberals" as authoritarian and oppressive, I just said some of the policies they advocate are. And what arguments are you talking about?

Snide
17th March 2004, 12:31 PM
Originally posted by RichardR
No offense meant. I was just pointing it out, for anyone else who might be tempted to use that argument. :) It's all good :)

RichardR
17th March 2004, 01:01 PM
Originally posted by Tony
But I never defined "liberals" as authoritarian and oppressive, I just said some of the policies they advocate are. I didn't say you defined "liberals" as authoritarian and oppressive. I said (some) conservatives define their meaning of the word "liberal",

Originally posted by Tony
And what arguments are you talking about? Any arguments said conservatives ignore when they use this method of reasoning. By using the word "liberal" as a slur they sidestep any arguments that liberals might make. The liberal arguments may well be false, but they are not shown to be false by simply parroting the word "liberal" as a slur. The technique is a fallacy.

Do you have any thoughts on the actual article I referenced?

Tony
17th March 2004, 01:09 PM
Originally posted by RichardR
I didn't say you defined "liberals" as authoritarian and oppressive. I said (some) conservatives define their meaning of the word "liberal",

Any arguments said conservatives ignore when they use this method of reasoning. By using the word "liberal" as a slur they sidestep any arguments that liberals might make. The liberal arguments may well be false, but they are not shown to be false by simply parroting the word "liberal" as a slur. The technique is a fallacy.


Ok, got it. :)


Do you have any thoughts on the actual article I referenced?

I’m not as economically astute as some of our other members, so I'll defer to them to comment on the meat of the article. But I will say that it seems that the author has a false idea of what the free market is.

The idea
17th March 2004, 03:24 PM
Originally posted by RichardR
Is there an alternative view of what brought the US out of the depression?
I would like to raise a different but related question: what put the US into an economic depression? If someone pushes you into the water, then how much credit does he deserve for jumping in and saving you from drowning? Assume, for the sake of argument, that he really was the one who saved you, but remember that maybe he didn't.

I may be the victim of clever propaganda, but I have the impression that there was some relationship between the crash of the stock market and the economic depression. So, my first thought would be to ask what caused the crash of the stock market.

Now, it occurs to me that the people who threw their money into a bubble that was about to burst might have been better off if they had had some basic education in economics. So, my question is: did they ever go to school and, if they did, what was considered more important than basic knowledge of economics?

Given my experience in public schools, I can guess. It was probably considered vitally important that young people study history and memorize exact dates. For example, suppose an event occurred on a particular day approximately two hundred years ago. Suppose a test asked for the year of the event. A student who gave an approximate answer along with a range (e.g., an answer off by three years but specified by the student to be within 20 years of the actual event) probably got a mark of zero for that answer.

Given such priorities, such decisions regarding what young people are required study and learn in school, why wouldn't there be a stock market bubble and crash?

subgenius
17th March 2004, 03:34 PM
Proud To Be Liberal
Why Liberal values are American values
http://www.elroy.net/politics/liberal.html

This should derail the thread completely. Someone else start a new one, I'm not that defensive.