Australian "National School Chaplaincy Program" - legal?

[devnull]

Hi all

A few years ago the federal govt implemented a federally funded school chaplaincy program in Australia. Under this program, state schools gain access to the services of a "chaplain" - Im assuming that they are sourced from generic christianity.

Im concerned this violates the separation of church and state, that the chaplain will undertake (implicitly or otherwise) proselytisation of their chosen religion, and that unqualified individuals will undertake counseling services.

I plan to raise my concerns firstly with the principal of my children's school, but will plan ahead to take this further. Has anyone in Australia raised this with their school already? What was the response? Does anyone have any guidance as to how to proceed? Should I consult a lawyer?

Is anyone aware of any specific law that this contravenes?

Opinions?

thanks and regards

[Zep]

There is no official "separation of church and state" in Australia, so you are on a hiding to nothing legally just now. Fortunately over the last decade or so, we have pretty much achieved this in practice.

SOCAS is essentially a US notion. I happen to agree with it in principle and practice, and would like to see it codified federally in some way.

I'd suggest seeing if you can get an official FSM "chaplain" enlisted. Or a rabbi. Or a mullah. Might highlight the silliness of the program altogether. It might also get you called names...

[Rasmus]

Hi all

A few years ago the federal govt implemented a federally funded school chaplaincy program in Australia. Under this program, state schools gain access to the services of a "chaplain" - Im assuming that they are sourced from generic christianity.

Even that might not be the case: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaplain

Im concerned this violates the separation of church and state, that the chaplain will undertake (implicitly or otherwise) proselytisation of their chosen religion, and that unqualified individuals will undertake counseling services.

Yes, that seems very possible to me, too.

I plan to raise my concerns firstly with the principal of my children's school, but will plan ahead to take this further. Has anyone in Australia raised this with their school already? What was the response? Does anyone have any guidance as to how to proceed? Should I consult a lawyer?

Is anyone aware of any specific law that this contravenes?

Opinions?

thanks and regards


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_of_church_and_state#Australia

[lionking]

I initially had problems with the concept, but just a week ago I had a call from someone who wanted a reference from a former staff member who applied for a School Chaplin job. He worked for me as a mentor for apprentices in a pilot project I initiated, which has since been implemented nation wide. I knew he was a god botherer, but he never tried to convert apprentices, which I respected him for. He was a very successful, non religious mentor. I recommended him enthusiastically.

If these guys don't preach, and don't try to convert, the program might be worthwhile.

[Zep]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_of_church_and_state#AustraliaThe most this has been used has been to prevent religious discrimination when applying for federal and state Public Service positions, and official processing when standing for election. I.e. there are no boxes on government job-application or candidate forms that ask your religion.

Apart from that, they try to keep the hell away from it - it's a minefield!

[devnull]

If these guys don't preach, and don't try to convert, the program might be worthwhile.

If that is true, why use chaplains? Would a qualified counselor not be a better choice?

[Zep]

My questions is: What are the counselling for? Are the kids all paranoid or bullied only on Thursday mornings or something? Waste of time altogether - the kids should be in school to learn stuff (in a fun and supportive environment!). If they need counselling, and I accept many do, that would be better "offline". If they need religious instruction, there's places for that already, and they are not schools.

[devnull]

Oh, apparently someone is already on it

http://www.highcourtchallenge.com/

[devnull]

My questions is: What are the counselling for? Are the kids all paranoid or bullied only on Thursday mornings or something? Waste of time altogether - the kids should be in school to learn stuff (in a fun and supportive environment!). If they need counselling, and I accept many do, that would be better "offline". If they need religious instruction, there's places for that already, and they are not schools.

It's even more obvious when you consider the costs:

"Ironically, in August 2010, the newly appointed Labor Prime Minister of Australia Julia Gillard, while endorsing and awarding high praise to the NSCP, pledged a further $222m toward extending the programme to at least 1000 more Australian schools. This sum was to represent almost one third of Labor's entire education budget of $704m." ( http://www.highcourtchallenge.com/ )

Gillard is an atheist BTW.

[Robin]

There is no official "separation of church and state" in Australia, so you are on a hiding to nothing legally just now.
Yes - the Autralian Head of State is the head of the worldwide Anglican Church.

I am not sure about the rest of Australia, but in NSW we have government mandated scripture classes in schools and until recently children who opted out of these classes were not allowed to spend the time learning anything.

I will believe we have acheived practical separation of church and state in practice when scripture is sent back to Sunday School where it belongs.

[devnull]

" Ch 5 § 116 The Commonwealth shall not make any law for establishing any religion, or for imposing any religious observance, or for prohibiting the free exercise of any religion, and no religious test shall be required as a qualification for any office or public trust under the Commonwealth."

Doesnt that cover it? How on earth did they manage to get scripture classes into a state school?

[Xero]

Isn't politics just great? /sarcasm

[Damien Evans]

Hi all

A few years ago the federal govt implemented a federally funded school chaplaincy program in Australia. Under this program, state schools gain access to the services of a "chaplain" - Im assuming that they are sourced from generic christianity.

Im concerned this violates the separation of church and state, that the chaplain will undertake (implicitly or otherwise) proselytisation of their chosen religion, and that unqualified individuals will undertake counseling services.

I plan to raise my concerns firstly with the principal of my children's school, but will plan ahead to take this further. Has anyone in Australia raised this with their school already? What was the response? Does anyone have any guidance as to how to proceed? Should I consult a lawyer?

Is anyone aware of any specific law that this contravenes?

Opinions?

thanks and regards

My opinion is that you should read our constitution, specifically the 100% of it which does not mention separation of church and state, excluding of course the government setting up a religion.

[Sideroxylon]

A good way to get people to understand the value of secularism might be to have members of another religion, like Islam, try to get into schools through the programme.

[Damien Evans]

" Ch 5 § 116 The Commonwealth shall not make any law for establishing any religion, or for imposing any religious observance, or for prohibiting the free exercise of any religion, and no religious test shall be required as a qualification for any office or public trust under the Commonwealth."

Doesnt that cover it? How on earth did they manage to get scripture classes into a state school?

Because it's not against the constitution. Just ask the High Court, who have already made several rulings on this matter.

[Lucian]

Because it's not against the constitution. Just ask the High Court, who have already made several rulings on this matter.

The Australian establishment clause sounds an awful lot like the US establishment clause ("Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof") except your is more thorough than ours. Your courts seem to interpret it much more narrowly than our courts though. What you need are some of those evil, liberal "activist" judges who roam the American countryside making the world unsafe for Christians.

[Wildy]

The Australian establishment clause sounds an awful lot like the US establishment clause ("Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof") except your is more thorough than ours.

That's because they nicked it from the US Constitution and changed the words.

[Damien Evans]

The Australian establishment clause sounds an awful lot like the US establishment clause ("Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof") except your is more thorough than ours. Your courts seem to interpret it much more narrowly than our courts though. What you need are some of those evil, liberal "activist" judges who roam the American countryside making the world unsafe for Christians.

Maybe, but also note that that's the Australian Constitution, while this is being done by the NSW State Government, so unless there's a successful challenge on the commonwealth having priority over the state in state schools, it's not very relevant.

[Ryokan]

SOCAS is essentially a US notion.

It originated in France, where they also take the separation of church and state very seriously.

[Tsukasa Buddha]

Chaplains can actually be very nice, they are usually just for people who want to talk and don't want to pay the money for the shrink or don't have a mental illness (oftentimes it has to do with an isolated incident in their lives). The inter-faith ones are often taught to sort of mirror the person's beliefs, in a way. Of course, I am sure there are stories I haven't heard about bad ones.

The "counselors" at my school really just helped kids pick classes and get college info.

[Shai Gar]

It's even more obvious when you consider the costs:

"Ironically, in August 2010, the newly appointed Labor Prime Minister of Australia Julia Gillard, while endorsing and awarding high praise to the NSCP, pledged a further $222m toward extending the programme to at least 1000 more Australian schools. This sum was to represent almost one third of Labor's entire education budget of $704m." highcourtchallenge.com )

Gillard is an atheist BTW.

Thought you'd appreciate the update. :)

You wrote "This sum was to represent almost one third of Labor's entire education budget of $704m." this is incorrect. I spent some time writing to Ron Williams and he has since corrected his misconception to read: "This sum was to represent almost one third of Labor's 2010 pre-election four-year schools policy education pitch of $704m." This is from the "Australian" newspaper article online which actually mentions the 704million dollars. However does not talk about what the original High Court Challenge website.

Just in case you were curious, the education budget can be found at the website aeufederal.org.au, and at the australian government budget website budget.gov.au

[Sideroxylon]

Looks like some strong moves to knock this on the head in Victoria.

Teacher union calls for end to religious classes
Michael Bachelard
May 15, 2011

VICTORIA'S teachers' union is calling for an end to religious education in state schools, increasing pressure on the Baillieu government over the controversial program.

The Victorian branch, representing 46,000 state school teachers, passed a resolution at its Friday council meeting calling for Special Religious Instruction during school hours to be scrapped.

Its resolution stated that public education must remain ''free and secular''.

Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/teacher-union-calls-for-end-to-religious-classes-20110514-1enkw.html#ixzz1MLtBrsCH

[Resume]

It originated in France, where they also take the separation of church and state very seriously.

Actually it didn't become French law until 1905, though it does trace its roots to the French Revolution in much the same way the Jeffersonian idea has roots in the American Revolution. Perhaps each inspired the other, not sure.