Parents doing their kids' homework

[esquel]

What is up with parents doing their kids' homework? I'm seeing, more and more frequently, parents coming to the library and asking us to help them find books for their children's reports. The kids never come in, the parents just collect up the books and leave. The kids, meanwhile, are too busy elsewhere (sports? after-school jobs? other homework?) to do their own research. I'm not sure they are being well served by sending their parents out to do the looking for source material that they should be doing in order to learn good fact-finding and evalution techniques.

[DallasDad]

I can see a parent stopping by to pick up a book for a child. I've never done it, but in my area, the nearest public library is 10 miles away -- no way my 11-year-old would be allowed to go there on his own, even if there were bike paths or sidewalks (which there are not).

I tell all of our teachers at the beginning of the year that I don't believe in homework for parents. Anything they send home that my child can't do, I simply write "No" and send it back undone. I also have a time limit. If my child has worked diligently for x minutes on something, I draw a line across the paper at that point, and we move on. There are other things in life to do. We don't do homework on holidays or weekends, either.

My favorite example of inappropriate homework is when they asked my then-first-grader to prepare a powerpoint presentation. He could probably learn to do it, but the time and effort involved -- especially when he wasn't allowed to use the computer at all, not to mention the cost of buying a specific piece of software for a grade-school homework project -- made the whole thing laughable.

For the work my kids can do, but might have trouble completing independently, I have no shortage of time and energy. But it has to be appropriate to their grade level, and the school must have at least introduced them to the subject before I'll tackle it as homework.

The school hasn't yet begun to cover the science, language, and math that I'm teaching my kids every day at home. I'm happy to help the school by encouraging the things they teach, but homework is something that has to fit into our schedule, not the other way around.

So far (my oldest is in sixth grade this year), the teachers are so happy to have a parent involved in education and responding daily to notes, emails, or phone calls, that they don't usually make a fuss about the homework. The only real problem I recall was a third-grade teacher who tried to make one of my sons miss recess to make up work I'd marked unacceptable. A quick meeting with the principal ended that threat for good.

The thing that frosts me the most is when teachers thank me for being involved. They don't seem to get that I've subcontracted out part of my responsibility, and that they work for me. I'm the one who needs to be pleased. My children are the ones who need to be served. I'm the one ultimately responsibile, which means I call the shots. If they don't like it, or their rules say something different, tough.

All that said, if my kid needed a book from the public library, and had no way to get it, I'd happily drop by to get it for him.

[KoihimeNakamura]

I can see a parent stopping by to pick up a book for a child. I've never done it, but in my area, the nearest public library is 10 miles away -- no way my 11-year-old would be allowed to go there on his own, even if there were bike paths or sidewalks (which there are not).

I tell all of our teachers at the beginning of the year that I don't believe in homework for parents. Anything they send home that my child can't do, I simply write "No" and send it back undone. I also have a time limit. If my child has worked diligently for x minutes on something, I draw a line across the paper at that point, and we move on. There are other things in life to do. We don't do homework on holidays or weekends, either.

My favorite example of inappropriate homework is when they asked my then-first-grader to prepare a powerpoint presentation. He could probably learn to do it, but the time and effort involved -- especially when he wasn't allowed to use the computer at all, not to mention the cost of buying a specific piece of software for a grade-school homework project -- made the whole thing laughable.

For the work my kids can do, but might have trouble completing independently, I have no shortage of time and energy. But it has to be appropriate to their grade level, and the school must have at least introduced them to the subject before I'll tackle it as homework.

The school hasn't yet begun to cover the science, language, and math that I'm teaching my kids every day at home. I'm happy to help the school by encouraging the things they teach, but homework is something that has to fit into our schedule, not the other way around.

So far (my oldest is in sixth grade this year), the teachers are so happy to have a parent involved in education and responding daily to notes, emails, or phone calls, that they don't usually make a fuss about the homework. The only real problem I recall was a third-grade teacher who tried to make one of my sons miss recess to make up work I'd marked unacceptable. A quick meeting with the principal ended that threat for good.

The thing that frosts me the most is when teachers thank me for being involved. They don't seem to get that I've subcontracted out part of my responsibility, and that they work for me. I'm the one who needs to be pleased. My children are the ones who need to be served. I'm the one ultimately responsibile, which means I call the shots. If they don't like it, or their rules say something different, tough.

All that said, if my kid needed a book from the public library, and had no way to get it, I'd happily drop by to get it for him.

Congratulations, you're part of the problem. Please please stop doing what you're doing. Thank you.

[fuelair]

You must have fun at your job.

[DallasDad]

Congratulations, you're part of the problem. Please please stop doing what you're doing. Thank you.

What are you on about? Please specify the problem to which you refer, and tell me how I'm part of it.

[Ysidro]

Edited for it being none of my business.

[drkitten]

Congratulations, you're part of the problem. Please please stop doing what you're doing. Thank you.

I'm afraid I concur with DD; I don't see what problem he's supposed to be a part of or what he's supposed to stop doing. Feel free to enlarge upon your objection.

[talkie toaster]

I wonder how many parents have been in this situation:-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e8UsRuglp3w

[sadhatter]

I've never dug the concept of homework. ( 26 now, and in college, so i am ' Not digging' a lot of stuff, lol. But i am refering more to grade and public school. )

To me, if your throwing a ton of homework at a kid, then they are not going to put as much effort into the time they are at school. And on top of that, we all need some " Wind down" time after a job, and school is no different. Heck, one could even argue that to some kids, school is a bit more stressful than a job.

The worst was when the teacher wouldn't even look at it, just walk around checking if you actually put down something on the page. If your going to ask someone to do work, grade that work based on the effort, the vast majority of my class up to and including last year of high school would simply re write the problem, and put a random answer. That isn't learning anything except for the fact that some people's laziness can benefit you.

I see homework as busy work, and in the real world, and in school i despise busy work. It gives someone no sense of satisfaction, and breeds resentment at the fact that the only reason they are doing a task, is to do the task. Not because it is providing themselves or anyone else a benefit.

[The Norseman]

The whole idea of homework in the first place... I dunno.

For certain ages, sure, it should be expected that independent research and reading and so on is normal and required, but like grade school, maybe some into junior high, homework should be a rare occurrence, not some one hour per night type thing which is what I remember with my step-kids.

[Halfcentaur]

I graduated high school having never done homework ever for the most part. I remember studying to learn all 50 states for an hour with my mother in 4th grade, and then memorizing the rivers in my state in high school, but for the most part I just didn't do it. I also was a chronic absentee for various reasons and missed several days a week regularly from third grade to 7th. For elementary school I just floated by on being intelligent and lucid when communicating with my teachers, and by making above average test scores, when I did them. My teachers just liked me and reluctantly tolerated my terrible habits I suppose.

In high school I discovered one could actually leave school and ditch classes, and this didn't float. The administration told any student that did this sort of thing to drop out, and I ended up dropping out my freshman year. After three years of doing my own thing, I got a sense of urgency about it all, and went back to school as an 18 year old freshmen. I managed to demonstrate I was serious about it, and I was able to get enrolled in the alternative school after spending about 6 months in standard classes.
In the special program I made up three years in a year and a quarter working at my own pace.

I still never really did home work, managing to avoid it in some way or another.

[Hindmost]

I can see a parent stopping by to pick up a book for a child. I've never done it, but in my area, the nearest public library is 10 miles away -- no way my 11-year-old would be allowed to go there on his own, even if there were bike paths or sidewalks (which there are not).

I tell all of our teachers at the beginning of the year that I don't believe in homework for parents. Anything they send home that my child can't do, I simply write "No" and send it back undone. I also have a time limit. If my child has worked diligently for x minutes on something, I draw a line across the paper at that point, and we move on. There are other things in life to do. We don't do homework on holidays or weekends, either.

My favorite example of inappropriate homework is when they asked my then-first-grader to prepare a powerpoint presentation. He could probably learn to do it, but the time and effort involved -- especially when he wasn't allowed to use the computer at all, not to mention the cost of buying a specific piece of software for a grade-school homework project -- made the whole thing laughable.

For the work my kids can do, but might have trouble completing independently, I have no shortage of time and energy. But it has to be appropriate to their grade level, and the school must have at least introduced them to the subject before I'll tackle it as homework.

The school hasn't yet begun to cover the science, language, and math that I'm teaching my kids every day at home. I'm happy to help the school by encouraging the things they teach, but homework is something that has to fit into our schedule, not the other way around.

So far (my oldest is in sixth grade this year), the teachers are so happy to have a parent involved in education and responding daily to notes, emails, or phone calls, that they don't usually make a fuss about the homework. The only real problem I recall was a third-grade teacher who tried to make one of my sons miss recess to make up work I'd marked unacceptable. A quick meeting with the principal ended that threat for good.

The thing that frosts me the most is when teachers thank me for being involved. They don't seem to get that I've subcontracted out part of my responsibility, and that they work for me. I'm the one who needs to be pleased. My children are the ones who need to be served. I'm the one ultimately responsibile, which means I call the shots. If they don't like it, or their rules say something different, tough.

All that said, if my kid needed a book from the public library, and had no way to get it, I'd happily drop by to get it for him.

There are several things wrong here...

First, you are telling your kids they don't have to finish a task if they don't feel like it. All they need do is goof off a bit and you will draw a line on the paper--the teacher is always wrong. You are also teaching them not to worry about the consequenses of not finishing an assignment as you will go around the teacher to the principal.

It's part of the entitlement generation. I think you should consider home schooling.

glenn

[TheGoldcountry]

There are several things wrong here...

First, you are telling your kids they don't have to finish a task if they don't feel like it. All they need do is goof off a bit and you will draw a line on the paper--the teacher is always wrong. You are also teaching them not to worry about the consequenses of not finishing an assignment as you will go around the teacher to the principal.

It's part of the entitlement generation. I think you should consider home schooling.

glenn

Sorry, I agree with DallasDad. He isn't telling his kids they can goof off whenever they want- HE is making the determination of when homework is necessary or appropriate. He is also not saying they can blow off whatever they want. Again, HE is deciding that issue.

I don't think the children are "entitled" if they are following their parent's rules. Neither is he entitled for simply not acquiescing to the authorities cookie cutter approach to education.

He is taking an active role in his children's educations, he is communicating with teachers and administrators, and he is taking it upon himself to teach them some things at home. How is this a bad thing?

It seems that you think it is an all or nothing proposition: either do everything exactly as the teachers and schools prescribe, or home school. I disagree. I don't think I should have to sacrifice my child's public education opportunities simply because I disagree with the homogenous approach that they take with their students.

[Hindmost]

I've never dug the concept of homework. ( 26 now, and in college, so i am ' Not digging' a lot of stuff, lol. But i am refering more to grade and public school. )

To me, if your throwing a ton of homework at a kid, then they are not going to put as much effort into the time they are at school. And on top of that, we all need some " Wind down" time after a job, and school is no different. Heck, one could even argue that to some kids, school is a bit more stressful than a job.

The worst was when the teacher wouldn't even look at it, just walk around checking if you actually put down something on the page. If your going to ask someone to do work, grade that work based on the effort, the vast majority of my class up to and including last year of high school would simply re write the problem, and put a random answer. That isn't learning anything except for the fact that some people's laziness can benefit you.

I see homework as busy work, and in the real world, and in school i despise busy work. It gives someone no sense of satisfaction, and breeds resentment at the fact that the only reason they are doing a task, is to do the task. Not because it is providing themselves or anyone else a benefit.

The whole idea of homework in the first place... I dunno.

For certain ages, sure, it should be expected that independent research and reading and so on is normal and required, but like grade school, maybe some into junior high, homework should be a rare occurrence, not some one hour per night type thing which is what I remember with my step-kids.

I graduated high school having never done homework ever for the most part. I remember studying to learn all 50 states for an hour with my mother in 4th grade, and then memorizing the rivers in my state in high school, but for the most part I just didn't do it. I also was a chronic absentee for various reasons and missed several days a week regularly from third grade to 7th. For elementary school I just floated by on being intelligent and lucid when communicating with my teachers, and by making above average test scores, when I did them. My teachers just liked me and reluctantly tolerated my terrible habits I suppose.

In high school I discovered one could actually leave school and ditch classes, and this didn't float. The administration told any student that did this sort of thing to drop out, and I ended up dropping out my freshman year. After three years of doing my own thing, I got a sense of urgency about it all, and went back to school as an 18 year old freshmen. I managed to demonstrate I was serious about it, and I was able to get enrolled in the alternative school after spending about 6 months in standard classes.
In the special program I made up three years in a year and a quarter working at my own pace.

I still never really did home work, managing to avoid it in some way or another.

I don't see how "not doing homework" provides some sort of benefit overall. Homework should be a reasonable part of education and must be taylored to fit the students' age. When listening to a lecture, only about 10-20% of what you hear is remembered. Homework is the performance part and a student will learn 90% of what is performed.

glenn

[TheGoldcountry]

I don't see how "not doing homework" provides some sort of benefit overall. Homework should be a reasonable part of education and must be taylored to fit the students' age. When listening to a lecture, only about 10-20% of what you hear is remembered. Homework is the performance part and a student will learn 90% of what is performed.

glenn

and if you as a parent feel that the homework is inappropriate for your child's age, or a time waster with no benefit, you should go along with it unquestioningly? That, or home school? Seems a very black and white solution to what I feel to be a more complex problem.

[TheGoldcountry]

Perhaps homework is better suited to children nowadays, but when I was in grade school, 90% of homework was b.s. busywork that did nothing for my education. I learned 10 times more reading and learning various things from my family than I did from homework. If I have time to spend with my children working on homework that I consider valueless, you can bet that I will find better uses for that time. That isn't "goofing off", as Hindmost likes to casually dismiss it.

[Hindmost]

Sorry, I agree with DallasDad. He isn't telling his kids they can goof off whenever they want- HE is making the determination of when homework is necessary or appropriate. He is also not saying they can blow off whatever they want. Again, HE is deciding that issue.

I don't think the children are "entitled" if they are following their parent's rules. Neither is he entitled for simply not acquiescing to the authorities cookie cutter approach to education.

He is taking an active role in his children's educations, he is communicating with teachers and administrators, and he is taking it upon himself to teach them some things at home. How is this a bad thing?

It seems that you think it is an all or nothing proposition: either do everything exactly as the teachers and schools prescribe, or home school. I disagree. I don't think I should have to sacrifice my child's public education opportunities simply because I disagree with the homogenous approach that they take with their students.

A parent taking an active role is great...however, based on the post, DallasDad is undercutting the teacher and removing any consequenses. That is entitlement as the teacher's authority is just dismissed.

Your argument is a bit of strawman. I never said it was an all or nothing proposition nor did I indicate someone should sacrifice educational opportunity. I also didn't say someone should acquiesce to authority. If there is a problem with homework and the teacher is not willing to address the issue, then there is cause for further action. Meeting with a teacher to determine the best educational path for completing homework assignments should be the first step.

glenn

[Cactus Wren]

I wonder how many parents have been in this situation:-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e8UsRuglp3w

"This video contains content from MyVideoRights (MVR), who has blocked it in your country on copyright grounds.
"Sorry about that."

Care to offer a hint of what I'm missing?

[thull]

I see homework falling into three categories:

1. Repetition, This process should be automatic for you, so you are going to do it a thousand times. If we did all these repetitions in class we would only cover a handful of topics this year.
2. Preparation, The discussion of the topic is the focus and what will occur in the classroom; the subject matter should be read/researched on your own time
3. Time consuming, I'm not wasting a class time while students write out an entire essay.

The topic of the thread is parents doing the work intended to be their kid's homework. For the above reasons 1 and 2, there is no benefit if the parents do the student's work. Sure, the student has a short term benefit of not doing the work, but the chance of getting caught is somewhat high as the intention was to be able to show that knowledge in the classroom. For number 3, depending on the assignment it might be in the best interest of all involved if parents does the majority of the research/work for the student.

[Hindmost]

and if you as a parent feel that the homework is inappropriate for your child's age, or a time waster with no benefit, you should go along with it unquestioningly? That, or home school? Seems a very black and white solution to what I feel to be a more complex problem.

Perhaps homework is better suited to children nowadays, but when I was in grade school, 90% of homework was b.s. busywork that did nothing for my education. I learned 10 times more reading and learning various things from my family than I did from homework. If I have time to spend with my children working on homework that I consider valueless, you can bet that I will find better uses for that time. That isn't "goofing off", as Hindmost likes to casually dismiss it.

Again, you are posting a strawman...I never said that busywork homework is acceptable and I certainly did not casually dismiss spending time with children as goofing off.

glenn

[fuelair]

Personally. I am beginning to not give a crap if students choose to fail/their parents choose it for them. In Florida, the system has just gone from annoyingly difficult for the average student to really difficult for the average student - and impossible if they are not pushing or being pushed hard all the way through. We are watching kids who were making low Bs and Cs a month or two ago now making Fs due to a testing change (state required) essentially in early Feb. (look up Webb's Depth of Knowledge and think moving from 1,2 to almost entirely 3,5 - with no lower grades preparation. Then think about the lower grades heading the same way. Then tell me about your problem with homework for your child (or better, get with your legislator and tell him).

As for DD, I wouldn't pull that here in FL (and, I suspect, pretty soon any state - most are headed there due to Fed push and money) as the teacher would have no say at all and the Principal would be sending you to discuss it with the Board of Education..... the change is not just coming, it is here. (And it is going to wreck education for most kids who are average or below. More dropouts, more loss of good teachers (Not what the Republickers told you is it) as the good ones will be headed for normal work in their fields and the really poor ones will be dumped on test scores. The midlevel and the few martyrs still in will be teaching larger classes. I'm retiring soon, I'll get to watch and say I told you so.

Oh, and it seems general consensus in my school that I'm one of the good ones - as is my wife.:)

[icerat]

And we wonder why people today can't relax, destress, and leave their work at the workplace. We're trained from a young age we should be bringing it home and working evenings too.

Perhaps we should be teaching kids, and teachers, to be more effective when there actually at school?

Just a thought!

[fuelair]

Perhaps homework is better suited to children nowadays, but when I was in grade school, 90% of homework was b.s. busywork that did nothing for my education. I learned 10 times more reading and learning various things from my family than I did from homework. If I have time to spend with my children working on homework that I consider valueless, you can bet that I will find better uses for that time. That isn't "goofing off", as Hindmost likes to casually dismiss it.

I also learned much more from my own reading, watching, experimentation than I did in school - and in a lot of areas school didn't cover. That is comparatively rare though.

Also, you may interpret the homework as busywork - and I have no idea what you would consider busywork - but the homework I had in elementary school was geared towards what was being taught and practising same OR in learning how to do research (I was a natural on that - most people aren't) and write coherent papers (learned fairly quick). None of that is busywork unless it is given well after you have thoroughly learned the material. That covers the early 1950's and after that I can't really say much about the homework (el /hs) until my assignments (never busy work - even when I have a sub the work is either current and meaningful or prep for the coming test and even more useful/meaningful). And, due to our across the street neighbors and my nephew, I can safely say that current homework is definitely related and structured for meaningful learning toward proper reading/interpretation/pronunciation. I don't find any of it I have seen (a key phrase, I admit) busywork. YMMV:)

[fuelair]

And we wonder why people today can't relax, destress, and leave their work at the workplace. We're trained from a young age we should be bringing it home and working evenings too.

Perhaps we should be teaching kids, and teachers, to be more effective when there actually at school?

Just a thought!The most logical and coherent thought I have seen here including mine (and I can't say that often). Unfortunately, this is the US and that is not happening (the idea seems to be that making everyone worry about failing is the way to get 'er done). The ultimate idea being that everyone (who is not independently wealthy) will work for nothing, worry about job security, produce a lot and die from heart disease before they get anywhere near retirement age. Oh, wait, in ten years or less, what retirement?

[TheGoldcountry]

DallasDad: I also have a time limit. If my child has worked diligently for x minutes on something, I draw a line across the paper at that point, and we move on. There are other things in life to do.

Hindmost: First, you are telling your kids they don't have to finish a task if they don't feel like it. All they need do is goof off a bit and you will draw a line on the paper--the teacher is always wrong.

He specifically said "If they have worked diligently." I see no mention of letting the kid out of homework whenever they feel like it, nor do I see any implication that the teacher is always wrong. Do you feel the teacher is always right?

DallasDad: So far (my oldest is in sixth grade this year), the teachers are so happy to have a parent involved in education and responding daily to notes, emails, or phone calls, that they don't usually make a fuss about the homework.

Hindmost: If there is a problem with homework and the teacher is not willing to address the issue, then there is cause for further action. Meeting with a teacher to determine the best educational path for completing homework assignments should be the first step.

It appears that he already had your concerns here covered.

Hindmost: It's part of the entitlement generation. I think you should consider home schooling.

Your argument is a bit of strawman. I never said it was an all or nothing proposition nor did I indicate someone should sacrifice educational opportunity.

Apparently, I interpreted your statement differently than you intended.

[I Ratant]

I graduated high school having never done homework ever for the most part. I remember studying to learn all 50 states for an hour with my mother in 4th grade, and then memorizing the rivers in my state in high school, but for the most part I just didn't do it. I also was a chronic absentee for various reasons and missed several days a week regularly from third grade to 7th. For elementary school I just floated by on being intelligent and lucid when communicating with my teachers, and by making above average test scores, when I did them. My teachers just liked me and reluctantly tolerated my terrible habits I suppose.

In high school I discovered one could actually leave school and ditch classes, and this didn't float. The administration told any student that did this sort of thing to drop out, and I ended up dropping out my freshman year. After three years of doing my own thing, I got a sense of urgency about it all, and went back to school as an 18 year old freshmen. I managed to demonstrate I was serious about it, and I was able to get enrolled in the alternative school after spending about 6 months in standard classes.
In the special program I made up three years in a year and a quarter working at my own pace.

I still never really did home work, managing to avoid it in some way or another.
.
One of my lady friends decided as a sophomore in high school, trying to learn this "reading and writing" thing would be nice, so she taught herself to read and write.
The peer-promotion process in her earlier scholastic encounters hadn't demanded actually knowing those things.
She writes beautifully, much better than I ever could.

[TheGoldcountry]

I also learned much more from my own reading, watching, experimentation than I did in school - and in a lot of areas school didn't cover. That is comparatively rare though.

Also, you may interpret the homework as busywork - and I have no idea what you would consider busywork - but the homework I had in elementary school was geared towards what was being taught and practising same OR in learning how to do research (I was a natural on that - most people aren't) and write coherent papers (learned fairly quick). None of that is busywork unless it is given well after you have thoroughly learned the material. That covers the early 1950's and after that I can't really say much about the homework (el /hs) until my assignments (never busy work - even when I have a sub the work is either current and meaningful or prep for the coming test and even more useful/meaningful). And, due to our across the street neighbors and my nephew, I can safely say that current homework is definitely related and structured for meaningful learning toward proper reading/interpretation/pronunciation. I don't find any of it I have seen (a key phrase, I admit) busywork. YMMV:)

You're correct that I didn't personally define busywork- that would generate a whole other thread, I think. I can't disagree with anything you said, and I'm glad to hear that your personal experience suggests that homework nowadays is meaningful and productive.

My main point of contention was the idea that an individual parent should be allowed to take a hand in the decisions regarding their own child's education. I think a parent should have a say in their child's homework, without being told that they should either home school, or do it the school's way. I think there is a middle ground. Even though it might sometimes be difficult for teachers, a parent who is involved in their child's studies is probably better than one who is ignorant.

Also, I apologize for my disjointed post above. I was trying to contrast the comments made by two separate posters, and I am not very adept yet, being a rookie.

[Hindmost]

DallasDad: I also have a time limit. If my child has worked diligently for x minutes on something, I draw a line across the paper at that point, and we move on. There are other things in life to do.

Hindmost: First, you are telling your kids they don't have to finish a task if they don't feel like it. All they need do is goof off a bit and you will draw a line on the paper--the teacher is always wrong.

He specifically said "If they have worked diligently." I see no mention of letting the kid out of homework whenever they feel like it, nor do I see any implication that the teacher is always wrong. Do you feel the teacher is always right?

....snip....


Re: bolded part above, DallasDad clearly stated:

I tell all of our teachers at the beginning of the year that I don't believe in homework for parents. Anything they send home that my child can't do, I simply write "No" and send it back undone. I also have a time limit. If my child has worked diligently for x minutes on something, I draw a line across the paper at that point, and we move on. There are other things in life to do. We don't do homework on holidays or weekends, either.

There doesn't seem to be any compromise here. If the student truly was working diligently on the assignment and couldn't accomplish the task, then it calls for a meeting with the teacher...not a blanket action of refusing to do the assignment. In any case, the teacher may be right or wrong...but most of the time now, they are too tired to argue.

glenn

[lionking]

I'd rather parents do kids homework than the "Tiger Mom" approach. My daughter teaches kids in first year primary school and she has to fend off (mainly Asian) parents who demand more and more homework. There are other threads about childhood obesity. Let the kids get outside and play.

[TheGoldcountry]

Re: bolded part above, DallasDad clearly stated:

I tell all of our teachers at the beginning of the year that I don't believe in homework for parents. Anything they send home that my child can't do, I simply write "No" and send it back undone. I also have a time limit. If my child has worked diligently for x minutes on something, I draw a line across the paper at that point, and we move on. There are other things in life to do. We don't do homework on holidays or weekends, either.

There doesn't seem to be any compromise here. If the student truly was working diligently on the assignment and couldn't accomplish the task, then it calls for a meeting with the teacher...not a blanket action of refusing to do the assignment. In any case, the teacher may be right or wrong...but most of the time now, they are too tired to argue.

glenn

My point being, either the parent has a say in the work their child does, and the amount of time their child spends on that work, or they don't. As far as meeting with the teacher, DallasDad said in his original post that he did indeed correspond in e-mails, phone calls, and notes in addition to meetings with the teachers in regards to his children. As far as being "too tired to argue," I hear teachers complain all the time that parents are not involved in their children's education. If they don't like feedback from parents that is sometimes negative or at least occasionally in disagreement, than that would imply that parents are supposed to agree with schools and teachers 100% of the time, and I consider that silly, impractical, and ridiculous. There is no compromise in that scenario either.

[TheGoldcountry]

I'd rather parents do kids homework than the "Tiger Mom" approach. My daughter teaches kids in first year primary school and she has to fend off (mainly Asian) parents who demand more and more homework. There are other threads about childhood obesity. Let the kids get outside and play.

That seems a little weird. I can definitely understand the desire to see my children learning something that might not be offered in the general curriculum, but I would either discuss it with other parents and teachers first, or simply take it upon myself to teach them something I considered important (or find someone or some institution that could.)

Obviously parents can't do this with everything, but a public school that has to cater to the entire community can't either.

[DallasDad]

Homework can address many issues. Let's list some of them (I won't pretend this list is exhaustive): 1) It makes legislators and school boards happy because establishing rules is what they do, and they like to be seen doing something.
Who gives a flip? This is probably the most useless of the reasons homework is assigned. It has nothing to do with quality or appropriateness, or even the subject: it's just a rule for the sake of having a rule.
2) It makes the teacher happy because he/she believes that all kids should have homework.
Same response as to rule 1.
3) It's the principal's policy that all teachers must assign homework.
Same response as to rule 1.
4) It's rote practice for something learned in class. For example, the class learns how to do long division, and the teacher assigns relevant homework problems to give the kids a chance to practice, demonstrate understanding, and improve speed.
Wonderful! We do this kind of homework whether the teacher assigns it or not. Many subjects require practice to learn the skill. It's not enough to learn the principles. The simplest example would be learning to play the piano. One can attend lectures explaining music theory, or even plonk on the keys in a group setting, but one cannot train one's fingers and brain without repetition. Many math elements are similar. It's necessary and useful to know the algorithms, but absolutely imperative to have the multiplication tables, number buddies, and similar basics memorized. One doesn't have time in the shopping aisle to count using fingers.

Where I draw the line (literally) is when the teacher assigns 50 or 100 problems, or otherwise abuses the function of rote practice. There's no utility in an 11-year-old studying the same kind of math problem for more than 20 minutes at a time (at least not with my ADHD kids). If he doesn't get it yet, I would choose to do the homework another time, or parts of it over and over on different days, until he does get it, and damn the teacher's expectations of when it must be finished. The goal is learning, not compliance with a schedule. (NB: I agree that learning to comply with a schedule is a valid and necessary skill in its own right, but I don't agree that it is justification for any/every assignment a teacher happens to dream up.)
5) It's an extension of something introduced in class, an in-depth follow-up. For example, an older child may learn in class about the original thirteen colonies, and then have homework to choose one and present a summary of its history to the rest of the class.
Again, wonderful! We do this sort of thing even if the teacher doesn't assign this kind of homework. One of the things we do at dinner every night is go around the table, each person relating the most excellent thought, idea, or new bit of knowledge encountered that day. Often after dinner, we race to the encyclopedia or web to follow up. Ideas are exciting, and learning is self-reinforcing when approached this way.

Where I draw the line with this kind of homework is when it interferes with normal family life, including family vacations, or when it duplicates something that's already happening (either in school or elsewhere). My child is not going to skip learning French while visiting Paris in order to complete a book report on French literature. Primary sources trump secondary, and the book report can be done another time.

In summary, I expect the public schools to teach the Three R's, and hope they do more. Everything else, including remediation for what the school overlooks or fails to achieve, is my job. (And a large part of my job is getting my children to accept it's their job; not because I say so, or because a teacher says so, but because knowledge is useful, and understanding something is a wonderful internal reinforcer.)

If the school's homework leads toward the overall goal of my child being both educated and well-balanced, we do it enthusiastically. If not, not.

One of the stories I relate to my kids frequently pertains to a hypothetical bridge-builder who got straight A's in school. In our school system, that means he got 90% or better on all his tests. Yay, oh, yay! Then I ask them if they'd drive on a bridge built by a guy who got one out of every 10 necessary calculations wrong....

The public school's standards are way below mine. At home, we don't consider something learned until it's memorized, internalized, and understood in relation to other subjects. Within the bounds of age-appropriateness, we revisit subjects, expand subjects, and explore concepts all the time.

While education is extremely important to our family, so are other things, including friendships, leisure time spent with family members, reading, solitary studies, crafts, chores, spiritual and emotional development, and many other endeavors. There must be balance, and I'm in a much better position to help my children achieve it than a public school teacher.

Why is that controversial?

[KoihimeNakamura]

Homework can address many issues. Let's list some of them (I won't pretend this list is exhaustive):

1) It makes legislators and school boards happy because establishing rules is what they do, and they like to be seen doing something.

Who gives a flip? This is probably the most useless of the reasons homework is assigned. It has nothing to do with quality or appropriateness, or even the subject: it's just a rule for the sake of having a rule.

I seriously doubt this is the main reason we have homework.



2) It makes the teacher happy because he/she believes that all kids should have homework.

Same response as to rule 1.

3) It's the principal's policy that all teachers must assign homework.

Same response as to rule 1.



It's not like the teachers are trained or anything...



4) It's rote practice for something learned in class. For example, the class learns how to do long division, and the teacher assigns relevant homework problems to give the kids a chance to practice, demonstrate understanding, and improve speed.

Wonderful! We do this kind of homework whether the teacher assigns it or not. Many subjects require practice to learn the skill. It's not enough to learn the principles. The simplest example would be learning to play the piano. One can attend lectures explaining music theory, or even plonk on the keys in a group setting, but one cannot train one's fingers and brain without repetition. Many math elements are similar. It's necessary and useful to know the algorithms, but absolutely imperative to have the multiplication tables, number buddies, and similar basics memorized. One doesn't have time in the shopping aisle to count using fingers.

Where I draw the line (literally) is when the teacher assigns 50 or 100 problems, or otherwise abuses the function of rote practice. There's no utility in an 11-year-old studying the same kind of math problem for more than 20 minutes at a time (at least not with my ADHD kids). If he doesn't get it yet, I would choose to do the homework another time, or parts of it over and over on different days, until he does get it, and damn the teacher's expectations of when it must be finished. The goal is learning, not compliance with a schedule. (NB: I agree that learning to comply with a schedule is a valid and necessary skill in its own right, but I don't agree that it is justification for any/every assignment a teacher happens to dream up.)


Evidence required for the bolded bits.



5) It's an extension of something introduced in class, an in-depth follow-up. For example, an older child may learn in class about the original thirteen colonies, and then have homework to choose one and present a summary of its history to the rest of the class.

Again, wonderful! We do this sort of thing even if the teacher doesn't assign this kind of homework. One of the things we do at dinner every night is go around the table, each person relating the most excellent thought, idea, or new bit of knowledge encountered that day. Often after dinner, we race to the encyclopedia or web to follow up. Ideas are exciting, and learning is self-reinforcing when approached this way.

Where I draw the line with this kind of homework is when it interferes with normal family life, including family vacations, or when it duplicates something that's already happening (either in school or elsewhere). My child is not going to skip learning French while visiting Paris in order to complete a book report on French literature. Primary sources trump secondary, and the book report can be done another time.

That's half good and half not. School is unfourntly expected to take several hours of your day up at home. (I've yet to figure out why, but my average expected homework load at high school was seriously 5-8 hrs.) However, I would still think it fair to take about an hour per class

(Incidently, if you aren't spending 20 minutes or more per problem type in higher math classes, you're seriously going to hate it when the teacher asks you to expand your knoweldge on a test because you'll have no clue how to do it. Or maybe that's just me...)


In summary, I expect the public schools to teach the Three R's, and hope they do more. Everything else, including remediation for what the school overlooks or fails to achieve, is my job. (And a large part of my job is getting my children to accept it's their job; not because I say so, or because a teacher says so, but because knowledge is useful, and understanding something is a wonderful internal reinforcer.)

If the school's homework leads toward the overall goal of my child being both educated and well-balanced, we do it enthusiastically. If not, not.

One of the stories I relate to my kids frequently pertains to a hypothetical bridge-builder who got straight A's in school. In our school system, that means he got 90% or better on all his tests. Yay, oh, yay! Then I ask them if they'd drive on a bridge built by a guy who got one out of every 10 necessary calculations wrong....

... that's why we double check things? Honestly speaking, you're not going to get everything right and that's why we imbue a culture of checking and being careful with problems. If you want a perfect bridge builder...

The public school's standards are way below mine. At home, we don't consider something learned until it's memorized, internalized, and understood in relation to other subjects. Within the bounds of age-appropriateness, we revisit subjects, expand subjects, and explore concepts all the time.

While education is extremely important to our family, so are other things, including friendships, leisure time spent with family members, reading, solitary studies, crafts, chores, spiritual and emotional development, and many other endeavors. There must be balance, and I'm in a much better position to help my children achieve it than a public school teacher.

Why is that controversial?

Then homeschool. If you're going to be this way, just homeschool. While I agree with the basic premise that you are much better than a teacher to gauge the balance of a child, the teacher is trained in education and has a decent chance of being right.

[Lyrandar]

Why is that controversial?

To answer the question posed here... You are not the only parent that thinks they know better than the public education system. After reading this post, frankly, you might well be right. That doesn't make things that much easier for the teacher that has to deal with not just your complaints, but the complaints from every other parent of a student in his/her class. I think those people that find it controversial are imagining scenarios in which you happen to be mistaken, yet the teacher gives in anyway rather than deal with another complaint - or is forced to give in when you complain to the principal. On top of that, the tone of your posts gives the impression that you regard the public schools as at best stupid and misguided and at worst actively harmful to your kids' education. That doesn't inspire much confidence in your ability to be reasonable and understanding with them, which doesn't endear you to those people who hear stories of stupid meddling parents from the teachers they know.

With that said... I don't want to leave you with too much of a negative impression. It is entirely possible that you are, in fact, generally reasonable about things of this nature and legitimately smarter about education than the teachers you override. I'm not exactly a good role model for good homework and study habits myself (I've managed to do very well for myself without ever really needing to worry about such things), so if your method works, then I ultimately wouldn't really complain all that much.

As far as the main topic of the thread goes, I've had both busywork and useful homework before myself. I don't really care about the parents doing the work for the kids - I think it's stupid, and very close to if not actually academic dishonesty, but I also believe that a lack of actual learning will come back to haunt those people eventually. And if they can get the learning without doing the homework... as I said above, I'm not that much of a paragon of good study habits myself. It's not like I have any right to attack other people for failing to do things the right way.

[DallasDad]

I hold two master's degrees and a PhD. None of my degrees has anything to do with any work I've ever had, so few people in my everyday life know or care. Public schools, however, revere credentials beyond all else, so at the school, I insist on being called Doctor. Everywhere else in life, I giggle at people who are impressed by a doctorate in philosophy. (My master's degrees actually involved a bit of work; my doctorate was like falling off a log.)

The chances that I'm more credentialed than any given public school teacher are excellent. The chances that I'm better qualified than any given public school teacher are not so clear. General life experience teaches me that credentials, especially in the non-sciences, are not terribly meaningful. I'd much rather have a teacher with a gift for teaching and no credentials than one without the gift and a PhD in education.

Perhaps the schools give me undue leeway because of my doctorate. They shouldn't -- my arguments should stand or fall on their own merits. Yet I won't complain. If they give my arguments extra weight because I have a piece of paper on my wall, it's only better for my kids.

If I had the time, I would homeschool. I'm not a particularly gifted teacher, and my children aren't particularly good students, but we'd muddle along at least as well as the public schools do. But even though homeschooling is not possible for us now, I cannot -- I will not -- abrogate my responsibility for their education. I hope the public schools do well, but hope isn't the same as trust. I check, and follow up, and remediate, and enrich as needed. I sometimes find it necessary to edit the homework assigned, which brings us back to the original point. To be blunt, I correct grammar and spelling on handouts far more often than I have to draw a line and say we ran out of time, or that an assignment is inappropriate. If that makes me an ass, at least I'm a credentialed ass. So be it.

[Nihilianth]

As a teacher myself, I would like to address DallasDad. A few things in his post concerns me a bit. Not trying to question your parenting styles. Lord knows, every parent is different, and they all want what is best for their children. However, there is some advise I would like to dispense to you, if you do not mind, and are so inclined:

I can see a parent stopping by to pick up a book for a child. I've never done it, but in my area, the nearest public library is 10 miles away -- no way my 11-year-old would be allowed to go there on his own, even if there were bike paths or sidewalks (which there are not).

I can see this. Just wondering though, and don;t answer if you don't want to. It isn't really my business, but I was just wondering. What is wrong with allowing your 11 year old to travel 10 miles on his/her own to the local library to pick up a book for a report? I see you have written that there are not bike paths or sidewalks on the way to the library. So maybe I can see you not allowing your child to do so. But I am of the strong opinion that there has to come a time where you have to allow your kid to learn to be independant and to figure out things on their own. I happen to think that 11 or 12 is the perfect age for this. But, YMMV, of course.

I tell all of our teachers at the beginning of the year that I don't believe in homework for parents. Anything they send home that my child can't do, I simply write "No" and send it back undone. I also have a time limit. If my child has worked diligently for x minutes on something, I draw a line across the paper at that point, and we move on. There are other things in life to do. We don't do homework on holidays or weekends, either.

"X minutes?" That's it? Doesn't sound like you are encouraging your child to put a little time and effort into something that is difficult. As a teacher, we spend a ton of time and energy coming up with lesson plans. And, at least myself personally, I never assign work that a child cannot do on his/or her own. Of course, the younger the child, the more likely a parent will have to help them. Parents have to be involved in the child's education anyway. And I am not talking just parent-teacher interaction either. I am talking parent-child interaction, where you spend a good, honest amount of time with your child, and work with him/her until they understand the course material.

My favorite example of inappropriate homework is when they asked my then-first-grader to prepare a powerpoint presentation. He could probably learn to do it, but the time and effort involved -- especially when he wasn't allowed to use the computer at all, not to mention the cost of buying a specific piece of software for a grade-school homework project -- made the whole thing laughable.

Powerpoint doesn't really cost anything. It comes with Microsoft Office. If you have a computer, you probably have MO on the thing. If so, you probably already have PP.

Perhaps first grade is a bit young to assign a Power Point presentation. It all depends on the curriculum. I know I have never heard of any lesson plans for that age that requires a child of 6 or 7 to use Power Point. I know another teacher at my school who teaches 5th grade has them prepare PP presentations.

Even if PP is generally not part of any lesson plans I have ever heard of for first graders, 7 is a great age to begin to teach your kid how to use a computer. I will start my kid at the age of 6. (Wife is due in two months from now! :D ) The kidd will not be allowed to use the computer on his own. Instead, I will be right there with the child. This is perhaps one of my most pressing pieces of advice for you: You really oughtta allow your kid to start using the computer and learn the thing. You will be setting the child behind the curve, because computers are one of the most important tools in today;s society, and will only become more prevalent. So what if it takes some effort to get them to learn. If they have the capacity to learn it, as you have mentioned your child does, then you are not at all wasting any time. Get involved in his/her education!

For the work my kids can do, but might have trouble completing independently, I have no shortage of time and energy. But it has to be appropriate to their grade level, and the school must have at least introduced them to the subject before I'll tackle it as homework.

If the school has not already started the subject material before assigning it as homework, then there is seriously something wrong with that school. Homework is meant to reinforce what a child has learned during the school day. I was also wondering how you know "what is appropriate for the grade level?"

The school hasn't yet begun to cover the science, language, and math that I'm teaching my kids every day at home. I'm happy to help the school by encouraging the things they teach, but homework is something that has to fit into our schedule, not the other way around.

That is awesome that you are covering those things before the school does. This sounds like it might be your strength as a parent. It also sounds like maybe your child is ahead of his class, and could perhaps skip a grade or something. But as for homework "fitting around your schedule," unfortunately, the school/teachers have no idea what your schedule is like. Even if they did, what about all the other parents and kids in the class? Certainly they will have completely different schedules than you. So no, it is not the responsibility of the school to assign homework "around your schedule." Instead, it is the parent's responsibility to manage their time between work, kids' homework, play, and dinner.

If anything, it is up to the kid to come home and do their homework on their own first. It is up to the parent to make sure the kid sits down and does the HW. And the parent should stay out of doing the work, until they are satisfied their child has spent enough effort in trying it on their own first. Once they complete the assignment, the parent can look at the paper, and go over what the child missed. But it is imperative the child's answer does not get erased. In fact, it is usually best if the parent grabs a separate sheet of paper and shows where the kid went wrong, rather than writing anything on the original. This is important, because HW shows the teacher where the childrens' strengths and weaknesses lie in any given material. And a subsequent sheet of paper to hand in where the parents were helping their kids shows the teacher that the parent is involved in their child's education at home. This sort of thing is just as appreciated as parent-teacher interaction.

So far (my oldest is in sixth grade this year), the teachers are so happy to have a parent involved in education and responding daily to notes, emails, or phone calls, that they don't usually make a fuss about the homework. The only real problem I recall was a third-grade teacher who tried to make one of my sons miss recess to make up work I'd marked unacceptable. A quick meeting with the principal ended that threat for good.

Is there any reason why the work was unacceptable? If is it normal work as part of the curriculum, and all the other children in the class did it, there is little reason why one child couldn't do it. I sometimes have one of my kids in my room stay behind during recess to do some make-up work if they missed a day of school, or missed a HW assignment. I do that if I feel the missed assignment was important enough to miss recess.

Below is where you are definitely wrong.


The thing that frosts me the most is when teachers thank me for being involved. They don't seem to get that I've subcontracted out part of my responsibility,

"Subcontracted out part of your responsibility?" Absolutely false. You are still 100% responsible for your child. A teacher shares some of that co-responsibility, yes. But you are ultimately responsible for your own child's well-being.

and that they work for me.

Another misconception, and one that I get annoyed with some parents over, is that teachers "don't work for you." Rather, they work WITH you.


I'm the one who needs to be pleased.

Sorry, but that is not how it works. It is up to you to please yourself with your child's progress. A teacher can only do so much. What we can do as teachers is only half as effective as what you can do as a parent.

My children are the ones who need to be served. I'm the one ultimately responsibile, which means I call the shots. If they don't like it, or their rules say something different, tough.

This last paragraph (which includes the last several quotes that I picked apart,) is what scares me the most about your mentality when it comes to schools. The problem is, you really showed your hand that you think you are the most important parent, and your kid is the most important kid in the school. Perhaps the only ones that really matter. Looks this way, because earlier you said "homework has to fit around my schedule."

No, it doesn't. You're schedule has to fit around the school, and around your child's education. Rather, you should learn some time-management skills. Create a schedule for yourself, where you set out 1 to 2 hours (depending on grade level) per night for helping your children. Set aside one hour for your child to do on his/her own, and one hour after that for helping them. I am positive you could spare one or two hours a night.

Also, the rules in a school are in place for a reason. Saying "I call the shots. If the rules say something different, tough," is a pretty poor attitude. Instead of saying "I don't like the rules! I call the shots, and the school/teachers need to listen to me!" perhaps you should ask questions of why there are certain rules in place. You need to be specific about WHAT rules as well.

This kind of mentality actually kind of shows that perhaps you do not contact the teachers at all, or are ineffective in communicating with them. The above is a terribly ineffective mentality. You do NOT call the shots. There are likely 20 other students in your kid's class, each with their own set of parents, and their own set of problems and concerns. It is impossible to give in to such demands from one parent, especially when it comes to HW assignments.

All that said, if my kid needed a book from the public library, and had no way to get it, I'd happily drop by to get it for him.

And nothing wrong with that. Just don't make it a habit.

[Nihilianth]

The whole idea of homework in the first place... I dunno.

For certain ages, sure, it should be expected that independent research and reading and so on is normal and required, but like grade school, maybe some into junior high, homework should be a rare occurrence, not some one hour per night type thing which is what I remember with my step-kids.

It doesn;t have to be an hour every night. You are right. It doesn't even have to be every night. I am using this post to correct something I wrote in my previous post to DallasDad about setting aside one hour per night, and wanted to clarify something.

You should still set aside at least one hour a night when doing a time-management schedule. That does not mean you have to fill in that entire one-hour time slot for homework. It just simply means you are setting aside that time in case it is needed.

I agree about grade school. For grade school, I think about 1 - 3 nights per weeks of homework is appropriate, and maybe some little weekend assignment here and there as well.

Homework is meant to reinforce what is learned in the classroom. It is not meant to just be "busy work" as someone has said. A responsible parent should see the value in the HW assignemt. They should sit down with their kid after making them try it first on their own.

[Nihilianth]

Sorry, I agree with DallasDad. He isn't telling his kids they can goof off whenever they want- HE is making the determination of when homework is necessary or appropriate. He is also not saying they can blow off whatever they want. Again, HE is deciding that issue.

I don't think the children are "entitled" if they are following their parent's rules. Neither is he entitled for simply not acquiescing to the authorities cookie cutter approach to education.

He is taking an active role in his children's educations, he is communicating with teachers and administrators, and he is taking it upon himself to teach them some things at home. How is this a bad thing?

It seems that you think it is an all or nothing proposition: either do everything exactly as the teachers and schools prescribe, or home school. I disagree. I don't think I should have to sacrifice my child's public education opportunities simply because I disagree with the homogenous approach that they take with their students.

What is the purpose of education?

One could say the purpose is just to "get through life." Another could say it is to prepare one for life in the workforce for a blue-collar job; in which case, it is imperative kids learn to accept a responsibility given to them from above. If you are working for McDonald's at the age of 35, it is inappropriate to tell the head manager "but I don't want to scrub the toilet!" unless you want to get fired.

But I say the purpose of education is for preparing one for a life of fulfillment and happiness. To train students how to respect those in a higher position than them....those who have the training and the experience to command such respect. It is to give them the opportunity to do something with their lives, so they don't have to work at McDonald's forever. But most of all, it is for the purpose of preparing one for a life of fulfillment and happiness.

Part of the responsibility of a student is to do the assigned work given them so that they might learn something of value, even if it isn't apparent straightaway. And part of the responsibility of the parent is to reinforce what their children are learning in school. Parents have the further responsibility to address what they may deem inappropriate or other concerns in a reasonable manner to the teachers and administrators, so they don't come off as total jerks that have no idea how the education system works.

~ Vin.

[DallasDad]

Nihilanth,

Some of what you say confuses me. In your long reply to me, you complained that I drew the line at x minutes. Yet later in that same post, and in your next post, you talked about a total of two hours (one hour for the child by himself, one hour with me). Assuming I agree with the total, what do you propose doing when the two hours are up? When it's four hours? When it's five? That's the situation I sometimes face. My younger boy starts his homework a few minutes after getting home at 3:00. I normally let him work until dinner at 6:00, with and without my help during the time. That gives him 30-40 minutes per subject, each of which wants a full hour or two. That's the x. If there are still things to do, I cut him off when he's spent enough time on one subject -- or I spend all of the time on one subject and mark the others incomplete. It depends on the kid, his abilities, the difficulty of the material, and the day.

t doesn't have to be an hour every night. You are right. It doesn't even have to be every night. I am using this post to correct something I wrote in my previous post to DallasDad about setting aside one hour per night, and wanted to clarify something.

You should still set aside at least one hour a night when doing a time-management schedule. That does not mean you have to fill in that entire one-hour time slot for homework. It just simply means you are setting aside that time in case it is needed.

I agree about grade school. For grade school, I think about 1 - 3 nights per weeks of homework is appropriate, and maybe some little weekend assignment here and there as well.I'd probably have no problem with homework you assigned. But you're not one of our teachers, and they don't think your limits are appropriate.

Powerpoint doesn't really cost anything. It comes with Microsoft Office. If you have a computer, you probably have MO on the thing. If so, you probably already have PP.In fact, we don't have Powerpoint. But that's irrelevant, since the school hasn't bothered to teach him the first thing about it. We also regularly get assignments that require him to go online, invariably to a site that requires scripting or Flash, or some other technology that's not safe. In order to prove he's been there, either the site requires identification, or the teacher wants a screen print. I won't allow him to use his real name on an unknown site, and we don't have a printer. Are you offering to purchase a license for Microsoft Office and purchase a printer? If not, don't require these things for homework, or provide them at the school.

But as for homework "fitting around your schedule," unfortunately, the school/teachers have no idea what your schedule is like. Even if they did, what about all the other parents and kids in the class? Certainly they will have completely different schedules than you. So no, it is not the responsibility of the school to assign homework "around your schedule." Instead, it is the parent's responsibility to manage their time between work, kids' homework, play, and dinner.Sorry, wrong. The school can (and should) assign homework. But expecting all families to be able to make it work on a daily basis is both arrogant and unrealistic. I'm not asking the school to assign homework to fit our schedule: I'm telling them when our schedule does not permit the assigned homework to be completed. Do you see the difference?

The problem is, you really showed your hand that you think you are the most important parent, and your kid is the most important kid in the school.Hardly. I neither said this nor implied it. My kids are the most important kids to me, but that doesn't extend to what others think. Nor do I think I'm an important parent. I'm just the parent of my kids. The responsibility for them is mine.

You do NOT call the shots. There are likely 20 other students in your kid's class, each with their own set of parents, and their own set of problems and concerns. It is impossible to give in to such demands from one parent, especially when it comes to HW assignments.You're missing the point again. I'm not asking the school to give in to my demands. I'm sometimes refusing to give in to theirs. Why is that impossible for the school? It's not. Instead of marking "Incomplete" on a piece of paper, they mark "N/A." Done. I'm not asking the school to make everyone's homework fit our schedule, or to have a different schedule for each family. The school should give assignments, and each family should do what it can. The school can cope with the results.

You're schedule has to fit around the school, and around your child's education.Wrong on the first; correct on the second.

Rather, you should learn some time-management skills.Now you're just being insulting. I never said my time was limited or constrained, other than that I couldn't afford to do complete homeschooling. I'd wager you have very few parents who spend several hours a day with each child on schoolwork. They have been remarkably helpful with my younger son's dyslexia, not so much elsewhere.

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Regarding work for vs. work with: Perhaps I wrote carelessly. My point was that I don't work for the school, and neither does my child. We all work toward education. In that sense, since I'm the one ultimately responsible for my children's education, everyone and everything in the world works for me.

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You also may have missed where I mentioned, perhaps in another thread, that both of my children are special needs. They have IEPs and significant learning disabilities. Nothing is simple with them. They manage to work mostly on grade-level, and occasionally above it, but this is not due to the school's efforts.

-----

Regarding bike-riding: The streets between here and the closest library are three lanes each direction, and cross an Interstate. There are no bike paths or walker's lanes. Traffic moves at 60-70 MPH. You go ahead and make your own rules about 11 being old enough; I'll keep my kids safe a bit longer, thanks.

While we're on that topic, I'm sure you're thinking now that you should write something like, "Oh, well, then, of course. I didn't know." This reaction, assuming I'm correct about your thinking, is in large part the basis of my complaint. I shouldn't have to explain, or be subject to some random stranger's ideas about what's appropriate -- whether we're talking about traffic safety or letting a child use an unsigned ActiveX control on a web page. If I write, "No, we couldn't get this done" on an assignment, that's the end of it. I don't need you or the school second-guessing my judgments.

[DallasDad]

And I think I'll bow out of this conversation, at least for a while. It shouldn't be about me or my (somewhat strong) opinions. The OP asked a question. My answer led into a sideline that's probably not productive in the long run.

[JJM 777]

one could even argue that to some kids, school is a bit more stressful than a job.
Many kids work longer hours for school studies than adults are legally allowed to work. Especially under the big exam seasons.

I plan to defend my children when they enter school age. I will be one of those parents whom the teacher does not want to meet.

[lionking]

And I think I'll bow out of this conversation, at least for a while. It shouldn't be about me or my (somewhat strong) opinions. The OP asked a question. My answer led into a sideline that's probably not productive in the long run.

Not at all. I thought your comments thoughtful and right on topic.

I've never done my kids homework, although I helped. I did, however, and without apology, wrote much of a sociology essay for my sister, who was a single mother and studying part time to become a teacher. If I didn't do that she may well have failed. She's now Principal of one of the toughest, most disadvantaged schools in Sydney and doing great work. I also wrote an essay for my wife so that she would be qualified for a child care job. She has raised seven kids and is terrific at her job.

My point? That competency isn't necessarily about accreditation, at school and beyond.

[arthwollipot]

Powerpoint doesn't really cost anything. It comes with Microsoft Office. If you have a computer, you probably have MO on the thing. If so, you probably already have PP.Yeah, no.

Microsoft Office Home & Student edition costs $149.99 (http://store.microsoft.com/microsoft/Office-Home-and-Student-2010/product/C7A370CA?WT.mc_id=MSCOM_HP_US_HL_113LMUS004239). And even if you get it bundled with a new computer, you're still paying for it. It is normal in my area to get a new PC without MS Office preinstalled - this laptop I'm using now has never seen Office (I got OpenOffice though, which is free).

As for the rest of the thread, I'm pretty much with DallasDad on this one. You should see the crap they send home with my kids. Some of it is stuff they haven't even covered in class. Furthermore, if Offspring doesn't do his homework, there isn't even any consequence. The teachers just don't care. It's like homework is just something to get them off the XBox rather than something with any actual pedagogical value. And quite frankly, if that's all it is - and it is - then I care less about it than the school seems to.

For the record, since getting into high school, the homework regimen has been a LOT more reasonable. But the completely lax attitude to homework in primary school meant that he had a heap of trouble when homework suddenly got stricter.

[drkitten]

Again, you are posting a strawman...I never said that busywork homework is acceptable and I certainly did not casually dismiss spending time with children as goofing off.


I think you and DD are talking past each other, then. If you admit that not all homework assigned by the teacher is appropriate, then surely DD is in a better position than you are to determine which specific assignments given by his children's teacher(s) are appropriate and to take actions based on that determination.

If, in his opinion, the material is not grade-level-appropriate, then I think it's reasonable for him to take it up with the teacher and not force the students to comply with (presumptively unreasonable) demands. And I don't think it's appropriate for you to criticize him when you've no idea what the material in question actually was.

[Nihilianth]

Nihilanth,

[quote]Some of what you say confuses me. In your long reply to me, you complained that I drew the line at x minutes. Yet later in that same post, and in your next post, you talked about a total of two hours (one hour for the child by himself, one hour with me). Assuming I agree with the total, what do you propose doing when the two hours are up? When it's four hours? When it's five? That's the situation I sometimes face. My younger boy starts his homework a few minutes after getting home at 3:00. I normally let him work until dinner at 6:00, with and without my help during the time. That gives him 30-40 minutes per subject, each of which wants a full hour or two. That's the x. If there are still things to do, I cut him off when he's spent enough time on one subject -- or I spend all of the time on one subject and mark the others incomplete. It depends on the kid, his abilities, the difficulty of the material, and the day.

You said "x-minutes." That could mean anything. When you said "if the kid has been working on it for x-minutes, I cut him off." That sounded awefully close to laziness to me. Just the way it was stated, it sounded like you allow him just 5 or 10 minutes to complete an assignment before cutting him off. "x-minutes" certainly doesn't sound like anything like an hour to me.

To clarify myself, homework for really young children, 1st and 2nd grand mostly, they should probably have three HW assignments a week, tops. It should be something that takes them a half hour to an hour to complete. And it needs to serve the purpose of reinforcing what is being learned throughout the week. Older children starting in 3rd grade should probably have an assignment nearly every night, which should take them about 45 minutes to about an hour to an hour and a half to complete, and divide the time up into 15 minute chunks.

At no age should HW take more than 2 hours, even for advanced AP students in HS. Beyond that, they are wasting their time, psychologically speaking.

In any case, I did read one of your supplement posts later on in the thread. The one where you explained in better detail just how you take the time to educate your kids. That's pretty awesome, and I can admire parents who go above and beyond the norm for their child's education.

However, just because you do all this extra stuff on your own to ensure the education of your child, he still needs to complete the HW assignments given him. It is important for at least two reasons.

First, it shows just where the child is at developmentally compared to where he is expected to be. It could very easily be that with the extra education you provide at home, your child could be ahead of the entire class, and quite possibly be able to skip to the next grade. Unfortunately, the school will not even broach the subject of advancing your child to the next grade unless he demonstrates his ability to do so. And that comes with a combination of HW and test scores.

The second reason has to do with respecting the integrity of the teacher. You are undermining the authority of the teacher when you talk the way it seems you talk IRL, based on your posts in here. Of course, I have no way of knowing of what you say, and how you say it IRL. I only have your posts to go on. And from your posts, it really indicates you have very little respect for the teacher, to the point that you are downright arrogant. Take that little piece of criticism how you will. I honestly mean no offense whatsoever! An obviously I have no idea how you state things and/or go about handling the situation IRL. Your other post about teaching your kid on your own satisfied me quite a bit.I just had some concern about diplomacy, is all.

Anyway, the problem is, the rest of the students have to do the assignment. When one parent comes in and goes above the teacher's head to the principal about one HW assignment, and the principal says that one kid doesn't have to do the assignment anymore, the rest of the kids in the classroom will wonder why one of their classmates no longer has to do his HW completely. Your kid will also probably brag about how his daddy cuts him off, and doesn't like the HW at all. Kids are not stupid. Not by a long shot. And they talk among themselves about EVERYTHING.

I'd probably have no problem with homework you assigned. But you're not one of our teachers, and they don't think your limits are appropriate.

This is quite true. Schools and school districts differ from each other quite radically. This is why I think that education should probably be more centralized and homogeneous throughout the nation. It is why states are moving more and more towards one standardized test. Some schools are so shockingly terrible, it is a wonder they are allowed to accept any kids at all.

In fact, we don't have Powerpoint. But that's irrelevant, since the school hasn't bothered to teach him the first thing about it. We also regularly get assignments that require him to go online, invariably to a site that requires scripting or Flash, or some other technology that's not safe.

Heh, sorry but there is nothing inherently wrong with action/java scripting and/or Flash as a technology. It doesn't harm your computer by any means, unless someone introduces spyware or something, which is easy to get rid of. But it doesn't really harm your computer at all. ;)

In order to prove he's been there, either the site requires identification, or the teacher wants a screen print. I won't allow him to use his real name on an unknown site, and we don't have a printer. Are you offering to purchase a license for Microsoft Office and purchase a printer? If not, don't require these things for homework, or provide them at the school.

I thought about it a little more, and that is pretty lame. I can certainly agree with you here! A public school, especially at the elementary level, can HARDLY expect parents to own these technologies. I don't even have a printer myself, and I am a web designer/computer programmer on my free time.

Sorry, wrong. The school can (and should) assign homework. But expecting all families to be able to make it work on a daily basis is both arrogant and unrealistic. I'm not asking the school to assign homework to fit our schedule: I'm telling them when our schedule does not permit the assigned homework to be completed. Do you see the difference?

Well, to be honest, you should really make the time to have your child complete the assignment. If you TRULY have no time, and you have a very legitimate excuse, the work missed should really be made up at a later date. It isn't really acceptable for a teacher to just write off one student from doing HW, when the rest of the class handed theirs in. Usually a doctor's excuse is one of the very few excuses that will fly in most classrooms. If a parent wrote a note to me saying "Johnny couldn't get his HW done because it didn't fit our schedule, since we had going to my parents for dinner already planned out" or what have you, is not a real excuse to me. There has to be at least an hour you can set aside on any given day.

Since you said you come in and talk to the teachers and principals, they really probably should be urging the importance of getting the work done, before anything else. There's gotta be a solution to getting the assigned work finished, without interfering with whatever else you deem to be important at home.

Hardly. I neither said this nor implied it. My kids are the most important kids to me, but that doesn't extend to what others think. Nor do I think I'm an important parent. I'm just the parent of my kids. The responsibility for them is mine.

The implication was pretty strong, the way you worded your first post in this thread, especially at the end. I didn't want or mean to come off sounding like a jerk in my post to you, but neither did I want to be ambiguous. I just simply stated what it sounds like to other people, whether or not you think you implied anything.

You're missing the point again. I'm not asking the school to give in to my demands. I'm sometimes refusing to give in to theirs. Why is that impossible for the school? It's not. Instead of marking "Incomplete" on a piece of paper, they mark "N/A." Done. I'm not asking the school to make everyone's homework fit our schedule, or to have a different schedule for each family. The school should give assignments, and each family should do what it can. The school can cope with the results.

The problem is that when a teacher gives a specific assignment to take home with the kid, there is usually and hopefully a good reason for that assignment. I know personally, the assignments I give are entirely appropriate, and are very important. I use my assignments as extra assessments on my students' progress. I want to see what they can and cannot do on their own. If a parent wants to help their kid, that's great.

I have one model parent, whom I respect very very much, is very dilligent in having their child do what he can first. He must attempt each and every question in the assignment. Then the parents grabs a second sheet of paper, and goes over the wrong answers with the kid, using a different writing implement. The parent then staples the copy she was writing on, to the kid's HW copy that he wrote on, and sends both papers to me with the kid.

During parent-teacher time, I tell the parents exactly what the above parent does, and how it really helps me determine the strengths and weaknesses of that kid to a much finer degree. I can give the kid extra help in those areas where he was lacking. Now half the parents in the class do the same thing! I feel as though the learning going on is much more efficient, and the progress in the classroom has really picked up.

Wrong on the first; correct on the second.

No. You do need to schedule around the school. It's a part of life. You are given a certain responsibility that society expects you to fulfill. You cannot tell your boss that "oh, I don't need to schedule around your work." I don;t think you would have a job for very long if you did that.

You cannot schedule around your child's education without also scheduling around the school. The school is a very significant portion of the kid's education. If you truly have a concern about some aspect or another, then by all means, bring those concerns in for PTA meetings, and discuss with the teachers and other parents about what you feel is wrong. But make sure you bring in a solution on how to fix the problem. Schools are never perfect, and they never claim to be. Which is why they have the PTA, so they can work on what is wrong, or perceived to be wrong.

Now you're just being insulting. I never said my time was limited or constrained, other than that I couldn't afford to do complete homeschooling. I'd wager you have very few parents who spend several hours a day with each child on schoolwork. They have been remarkably helpful with my younger son's dyslexia, not so much elsewhere.

I apologize if I come off sounding insulting. I am just being frank with my assessment of your post. And you are correct. I have parents who don't spend so much as 5 minutes with their child on school work. I have parents who don't even care whether their kid does their assignments at all. It is rather frustrating, when the same kid never does his/her HW. I cannot teach in the most efficient manner, unless they do my assignments. I generally know a where kid's strengths and weaknesses lie, but rarely do I know specifically where, and when a child makes progress without those assignments.

-----

Regarding work for vs. work with: Perhaps I wrote carelessly. My point was that I don't work for the school, and neither does my child. We all work toward education. In that sense, since I'm the one ultimately responsible for my children's education, everyone and everything in the world works for me.

Oh, I understand your child is the most important thing in the world to you. But I think you kind of have to get it out of your head about the bolded. It comes off as being quite arrogant.

-----

You also may have missed where I mentioned, perhaps in another thread, that both of my children are special needs. They have IEPs and significant learning disabilities. Nothing is simple with them. They manage to work mostly on grade-level, and occasionally above it, but this is not due to the school's efforts.

And that is where your strengths as a parent seems to lie. Your school doesn't do intervention, or something similar? My school takes an hour out of each day, and does intervention. The ESL kids go to an English teacher, the special-needs kids go to a special-needs teacher, and the rest are assigned little games that are scattered throughout the classroom. Each small groups is assigned a different game each day during intervention.

The school also has an after-school program to supplement those who really need extra help. We also have summer reading programs, and other special-needs things.

-----

Regarding bike-riding: The streets between here and the closest library are three lanes each direction, and cross an Interstate. There are no bike paths or walker's lanes. Traffic moves at 60-70 MPH. You go ahead and make your own rules about 11 being old enough; I'll keep my kids safe a bit longer, thanks.

Well, you weren't very specific before! :rolleyes:

Of course my kid won;t be trying to cross a 6 lane highway to get to a library that is ten miles away. But then again, my hometown does have a very extensive bike path. And one section of the path does go over the beltway, but there is a walk bridge that is completely enclosed by a very sturdy metal fence that goes over the highway that is part of the bike route.

While we're on that topic, I'm sure you're thinking now that you should write something like, "Oh, well, then, of course. I didn't know." This reaction, assuming I'm correct about your thinking, is in large part the basis of my complaint. I shouldn't have to explain, or be subject to some random stranger's ideas about what's appropriate -- whether we're talking about traffic safety or letting a child use an unsigned ActiveX control on a web page. If I write, "No, we couldn't get this done" on an assignment, that's the end of it. I don't need you or the school second-guessing my judgments.

And another big problem right there. I am not "second-guessing" you as a parent. I am merely responding to what I see posted on here. Ultimately, you can do whatever you want, complain about anything you want, but leaving what is specifically bothering you about the education system will leave the school asking questions.

Ultimately, it's called "communication." If a parent just draws a line in the middle of a HW assignment, and sends the kid in with the bottom incomplete, of course there are going to be questions. I want to know the purpose of that line, and why nothing below it was complete. I want to know if it "took too long," and if so, WHY? I also want to know "how long did it take to get to this point?" I need specifics as a teacher, so I know what is going on at home, and what the parents are thinking. I mean, I can still do my job, regardless of HW assignments. I just will not be as efficient, and the kid will likely just be "pushed along" by the education system without tactful active participation from the parents. You seem to be doing a great job in active participation. But you seem to lack in tactfulness in your communications with teachers, based on some of your statements in this thread.

You may not appreciate what a stranger has to say, but why come on a forum, complaining about the education system, where you know that complete strangers are going to reply?

In any case, I was just merely giving some advice, and trying to explain a few things about the education system.

~ Vin

[Nihilianth]

Many kids work longer hours for school studies than adults are legally allowed to work. Especially under the big exam seasons.

I plan to defend my children when they enter school age. I will be one of those parents whom the teacher does not want to meet.

I strongly urge you NOT to do that. There really is no reason to get all up-in-arms about something. No teacher I talk to understands why parents get so upset with the school.

Perhaps the biggest, and only reasons why a parent would get upset, is because they have a complaint that is eating away at them, but won't tell anyone at the school. The PTA meeting is open to all parents, and that is the time to get problem, questions, and answers out on the table in a reasonable manner. Not only should you talk about your problems you have with the school, but you really need to listen, understand, and learn what teachers and administrators have to say.

And of course, it is a two-way street. The teachers and administrators also have to listen attentively to what the parents have to say. The second one side starts getting angry, is the second all hope is lost in improving what truly needs to be improved about a school.

~ Vin

[Nihilianth]

Yeah, no.

Microsoft Office Home & Student edition costs $149.99[/URL]. And even if you get it bundled with a new computer, you're still paying for it. It is normal in my area to get a new PC without MS Office preinstalled - this laptop I'm using now has never seen Office (I got OpenOffice though, which is free).

As for the rest of the thread, I'm pretty much with DallasDad on this one. You should see the crap they send home with my kids. Some of it is stuff they haven't even covered in class. Furthermore, if Offspring doesn't do his homework, there isn't even any consequence. The teachers just don't care. It's like homework is just something to get them off the XBox rather than something with any actual pedagogical value. And quite frankly, if that's all it is - and it is - then I care less about it than the school seems to.

For the record, since getting into high school, the homework regimen has been a LOT more reasonable. But the completely lax attitude to homework in primary school meant that he had a heap of trouble when homework suddenly got stricter.

I am not going to talk about the specifics of MS Office.

But here's where the importance of PTA meetings comes in. If a teacher is sending home too much HW, and truly is inappropriate (unlikely, given how much planning goes into a curriculum), then you absolutely need to come into the PTA meeting, and present your concerns in a reasonable and professional manner. Leave your anger and discontent at home when conversing with teachers. It doesn't help the problem, and will likely make a teacher withdraw even more.

Number one rule: Be tactful! Be tactful and professional when speaking to a teacher, but do not be haughty. When you come in to talk with the teacher and/or principal or the PTA members, come in with some level of respect. Come in with some level of professionalism. And most of all, come in prepared. Prepared to present your case in a convincing manner to spark discussion of an issue, and come in prepared to listen to responses.

What teachers want most of all is a parent who can talk in a reasonable manner. A parent who is frank when they need to be frank, but not to the point of being a total jackass. Remember: You get respect when you give respect.

~ Vin

[Hindmost]

I think you and DD are talking past each other, then. If you admit that not all homework assigned by the teacher is appropriate, then surely DD is in a better position than you are to determine which specific assignments given by his children's teacher(s) are appropriate and to take actions based on that determination.

If, in his opinion, the material is not grade-level-appropriate, then I think it's reasonable for him to take it up with the teacher and not force the students to comply with (presumptively unreasonable) demands. And I don't think it's appropriate for you to criticize him when you've no idea what the material in question actually was.


DD did not outline in his initial post discussing issues with the teacher and trying to reach common ground on a method to procede--as you indicate in the bolded text, that would be a reasonable approach. Had he done so, I would have complimented him. I was commenting on what I considered unilateral (and entitled) actions: 1. Drawing a line on the assignment after a period of time. 2. Writing "NO" across an assignment if he considers is too difficult...(which seems harsh to me). 3. Reversing an action by a teacher by going to the principal. 4. No homework on weekends. There seemed to be no effort to discuss this with the teacher. I find it difficult to interpret it otherwise and there were no specifics about why any assignment was too difficult so it could be analyzed to determine if the teacher was reasonable.

Nihilianth is addressing this better than I can in my opine.

glenn

[drkitten]

But here's where the importance of PTA meetings comes in. If a teacher is sending home too much HW, and truly is inappropriate (unlikely, given how much planning goes into a curriculum), then you absolutely need to come into the PTA meeting, and present your concerns in a reasonable and professional manner.

Why not present it to someone who actually has influence over the curriculum instead, like the teacher, or the teacher's direct supervisor (the principal)? The PTA is a waste of time for all involved.

[Nihilianth]

Why not present it to someone who actually has influence over the curriculum instead, like the teacher, or the teacher's direct supervisor (the principal)? The PTA is a waste of time for all involved.

Umm....what? The purpose of the PTA ("Parent-Teacher Association") is to set aside for....well....parents and teachers to get together to discuss things about their students, such as grades, problems areas, and whatnot.

The PTA meetings are given on a calendar that is sent home with the student. They are very specific time-blocks so it is clear to all involved exactly when the best time to bring in your concerns would be. This gives the parents and the teachers the time to plan out exactly what they want and/or need to address.

If you think it is a waste of time, then apparently you have never given it a chance, or at least implemented that time properly.

Of course, you can always talk to a teacher, and set up a specific time and place to meet face-to-face with the teacher to address some specific concerns with the student. But this does not give you the chance to interact with other teachers and other parents.

The only way to get a curriculum changed is by starting a discussion on the curriculum with the other parents and teachers. There is always someone writing down the minutes of the PTA meetings, and those minutes are generally brought forth to the super intendant, and the Board of Education. The PTA meeting is the only effective time to address HW and curriculum and school rule issues, and have it be heard and/or seen by the Board and the super.

[The Norseman]

I don't see how "not doing homework" provides some sort of benefit overall. Homework should be a reasonable part of education and must be taylored to fit the students' age. When listening to a lecture, only about 10-20% of what you hear is remembered. Homework is the performance part and a student will learn 90% of what is performed.

glenn

It doesn;t have to be an hour every night. You are right. It doesn't even have to be every night. I am using this post to correct something I wrote in my previous post to DallasDad about setting aside one hour per night, and wanted to clarify something.

You should still set aside at least one hour a night when doing a time-management schedule. That does not mean you have to fill in that entire one-hour time slot for homework. It just simply means you are setting aside that time in case it is needed.

I agree about grade school. For grade school, I think about 1 - 3 nights per weeks of homework is appropriate, and maybe some little weekend assignment here and there as well.

Homework is meant to reinforce what is learned in the classroom. It is not meant to just be "busy work" as someone has said. A responsible parent should see the value in the HW assignemt. They should sit down with their kid after making them try it first on their own.



Found this link (http://www.memory-key.com/improving/strategies/children/homework) regarding studies done on school children and ages when studying has been effective.

An excerpt:

Recent research studies by the Brown Center on Education Policy concluded that the majority of U.S. students (83% of nine-year-olds; 66% of thirteen-year-olds; 65% of seventeen-year-olds) spend less than an hour a day on homework, and this has held true for most of the past 50 years. In the last 20 years, homework has increased only in the lower grade levels, where it least matters (and indeed, may be counterproductive).

[Hindmost]

Found this link (http://www.memory-key.com/improving/strategies/children/homework) regarding studies done on school children and ages when studying has been effective.

An excerpt:
Quote:
Recent research studies by the Brown Center on Education Policy concluded that the majority of U.S. students (83% of nine-year-olds; 66% of thirteen-year-olds; 65% of seventeen-year-olds) spend less than an hour a day on homework, and this has held true for most of the past 50 years. In the last 20 years, homework has increased only in the lower grade levels, where it least matters (and indeed, may be counterproductive).



The link indicates an overall benefit for student achievement. I indicated that homework must be age appropriate. If homework at lower levels is counter productive, it should be curtailed. However, students should be introduced to homework at an appropriate age to help with a smooth transition in higher grades.

There certainly isn't any evidence that stopping homework completely would provide any benefit. For students that are heading off into be professions from medicine to law to engineering to teaching..., I would think lots of homework would be reasonable.

glenn

[fuelair]

Homework can address many issues. Let's list some of them (I won't pretend this list is exhaustive): 1) It makes legislators and school boards happy because establishing rules is what they do, and they like to be seen doing something.
Who gives a flip? This is probably the most useless of the reasons homework is assigned. It has nothing to do with quality or appropriateness, or even the subject: it's just a rule for the sake of having a rule.
2) It makes the teacher happy because he/she believes that all kids should have homework.
Same response as to rule 1.
3) It's the principal's policy that all teachers must assign homework.
Same response as to rule 1.
4) It's rote practice for something learned in class. For example, the class learns how to do long division, and the teacher assigns relevant homework problems to give the kids a chance to practice, demonstrate understanding, and improve speed.
Wonderful! We do this kind of homework whether the teacher assigns it or not. Many subjects require practice to learn the skill. It's not enough to learn the principles. The simplest example would be learning to play the piano. One can attend lectures explaining music theory, or even plonk on the keys in a group setting, but one cannot train one's fingers and brain without repetition. Many math elements are similar. It's necessary and useful to know the algorithms, but absolutely imperative to have the multiplication tables, number buddies, and similar basics memorized. One doesn't have time in the shopping aisle to count using fingers.

Where I draw the line (literally) is when the teacher assigns 50 or 100 problems, or otherwise abuses the function of rote practice. There's no utility in an 11-year-old studying the same kind of math problem for more than 20 minutes at a time (at least not with my ADHD kids). If he doesn't get it yet, I would choose to do the homework another time, or parts of it over and over on different days, until he does get it, and damn the teacher's expectations of when it must be finished. The goal is learning, not compliance with a schedule. (NB: I agree that learning to comply with a schedule is a valid and necessary skill in its own right, but I don't agree that it is justification for any/every assignment a teacher happens to dream up.)
5) It's an extension of something introduced in class, an in-depth follow-up. For example, an older child may learn in class about the original thirteen colonies, and then have homework to choose one and present a summary of its history to the rest of the class.
Again, wonderful! We do this sort of thing even if the teacher doesn't assign this kind of homework. One of the things we do at dinner every night is go around the table, each person relating the most excellent thought, idea, or new bit of knowledge encountered that day. Often after dinner, we race to the encyclopedia or web to follow up. Ideas are exciting, and learning is self-reinforcing when approached this way.

Where I draw the line with this kind of homework is when it interferes with normal family life, including family vacations, or when it duplicates something that's already happening (either in school or elsewhere). My child is not going to skip learning French while visiting Paris in order to complete a book report on French literature. Primary sources trump secondary, and the book report can be done another time.

In summary, I expect the public schools to teach the Three R's, and hope they do more. Everything else, including remediation for what the school overlooks or fails to achieve, is my job. (And a large part of my job is getting my children to accept it's their job; not because I say so, or because a teacher says so, but because knowledge is useful, and understanding something is a wonderful internal reinforcer.)

If the school's homework leads toward the overall goal of my child being both educated and well-balanced, we do it enthusiastically. If not, not.

One of the stories I relate to my kids frequently pertains to a hypothetical bridge-builder who got straight A's in school. In our school system, that means he got 90% or better on all his tests. Yay, oh, yay! Then I ask them if they'd drive on a bridge built by a guy who got one out of every 10 necessary calculations wrong....

The public school's standards are way below mine. At home, we don't consider something learned until it's memorized, internalized, and understood in relation to other subjects. Within the bounds of age-appropriateness, we revisit subjects, expand subjects, and explore concepts all the time.

While education is extremely important to our family, so are other things, including friendships, leisure time spent with family members, reading, solitary studies, crafts, chores, spiritual and emotional development, and many other endeavors. There must be balance, and I'm in a much better position to help my children achieve it than a public school teacher.

Why is that controversial?

I assume I am right in believing you did not intend to screw up the thread by leaving out a very salient piece of information in your initial post - that your kids were ADHD. ADHD (and many others) get modifications that appropriately (and normally determined by a guidance coucilor, administrator, teacher(s) and parent - in conference for the iep for that student - it's a federal requirement, all have to sign it and if the teacher is following it you are definitely in the wrong) determine things like homework type, length and complexity, testing modifications and more.. If there is not one then either Texas is not observing the law or your individual schools are not or you have been missing the meetings.:jaw-dropp:jaw-dropp:jaw-dropp

[fuelair]

[/.

Where I draw the line (literally) is when the teacher assigns 50 or 100 problems, or otherwise abuses the function of rote practice. There's no utility in an 11-year-old studying the same kind of math problem for more than 20 minutes at a time (at least not with my ADHD kids). If he doesn't get it yet, I would choose to do the homework another time, or parts of it over and over on different days, until he does get it, and damn the teacher's expectations of when it must be finished. The goal is learning, not compliance with a schedule. (NB: I agree that learning to comply with a schedule is a valid and necessary skill in its own right, but I don't agree that it is justification for any/every assignment a teacher happens to dream up.)
?

I assume I am right in believing you did not intend to screw up the thread by leaving out a very salient piece of information in your initial post - that your kids were ADHD. ADHD (and many others) get modifications that appropriately (and normally determined by a guidance coucilor, administrator, teacher(s) and parent - in conference for the iep for that student - it's a federal requirement, all have to sign it and if the teacher is following it you are definitely in the wrong) determine things like homework type, length and complexity, testing modifications and more.. If there is not one then either Texas is not observing the law or your individual schools are not or you have been missing the meetings.:jaw-dropp:jaw-dropp:jaw-dropp

[Nihilianth]

I assume I am right in believing you did not intend to screw up the thread by leaving out a very salient piece of information in your initial post - that your kids were ADHD. ADHD (and many others) get modifications that appropriately (and normally determined by a guidance coucilor, administrator, teacher(s) and parent - in conference for the iep for that student - it's a federal requirement, all have to sign it and if the teacher is following it you are definitely in the wrong) determine things like homework type, length and complexity, testing modifications and more.. If there is not one then either Texas is not observing the law or your individual schools are not or you have been missing the meetings.:jaw-dropp:jaw-dropp:jaw-dropp

Damn. I missed that. Good catch!

[The Norseman]

The link indicates an overall benefit for student achievement. I indicated that homework must be age appropriate. If homework at lower levels is counter productive, it should be curtailed. However, students should be introduced to homework at an appropriate age to help with a smooth transition in higher grades.

There certainly isn't any evidence that stopping homework completely would provide any benefit. For students that are heading off into be professions from medicine to law to engineering to teaching..., I would think lots of homework would be reasonable.

glenn


Yes, thank you for the clarification. I meant it to highlight the issues that the trend seems to be more homework regardless of its effect on academic achievement or future success or how it might be disruptive to some households.

As I said, my personal anecdote is where a then-nine year old was given a minimum of a half-hour of homework per night, often stretching into an hour.

According to the article linked and the links provided in that article, the cutoff seems to be 11 years of age -- anything below that and there is negligible effect and it was mainly to that I was referring.

[joobz]

Homework can address many issues. Let's list some of them (I won't pretend this list is exhaustive): 1) It makes legislators and school boards happy because establishing rules is what they do, and they like to be seen doing something.
Who gives a flip? This is probably the most useless of the reasons homework is assigned. It has nothing to do with quality or appropriateness, or even the subject: it's just a rule for the sake of having a rule.
2) It makes the teacher happy because he/she believes that all kids should have homework.
Same response as to rule 1.
3) It's the principal's policy that all teachers must assign homework.
Same response as to rule 1.
4) It's rote practice for something learned in class. For example, the class learns how to do long division, and the teacher assigns relevant homework problems to give the kids a chance to practice, demonstrate understanding, and improve speed.
Wonderful! We do this kind of homework whether the teacher assigns it or not. Many subjects require practice to learn the skill. It's not enough to learn the principles. The simplest example would be learning to play the piano. One can attend lectures explaining music theory, or even plonk on the keys in a group setting, but one cannot train one's fingers and brain without repetition. Many math elements are similar. It's necessary and useful to know the algorithms, but absolutely imperative to have the multiplication tables, number buddies, and similar basics memorized. One doesn't have time in the shopping aisle to count using fingers.

Where I draw the line (literally) is when the teacher assigns 50 or 100 problems, or otherwise abuses the function of rote practice. There's no utility in an 11-year-old studying the same kind of math problem for more than 20 minutes at a time (at least not with my ADHD kids). If he doesn't get it yet, I would choose to do the homework another time, or parts of it over and over on different days, until he does get it, and damn the teacher's expectations of when it must be finished. The goal is learning, not compliance with a schedule. (NB: I agree that learning to comply with a schedule is a valid and necessary skill in its own right, but I don't agree that it is justification for any/every assignment a teacher happens to dream up.)
5) It's an extension of something introduced in class, an in-depth follow-up. For example, an older child may learn in class about the original thirteen colonies, and then have homework to choose one and present a summary of its history to the rest of the class.
Again, wonderful! We do this sort of thing even if the teacher doesn't assign this kind of homework. One of the things we do at dinner every night is go around the table, each person relating the most excellent thought, idea, or new bit of knowledge encountered that day. Often after dinner, we race to the encyclopedia or web to follow up. Ideas are exciting, and learning is self-reinforcing when approached this way.

Where I draw the line with this kind of homework is when it interferes with normal family life, including family vacations, or when it duplicates something that's already happening (either in school or elsewhere). My child is not going to skip learning French while visiting Paris in order to complete a book report on French literature. Primary sources trump secondary, and the book report can be done another time.

In summary, I expect the public schools to teach the Three R's, and hope they do more. Everything else, including remediation for what the school overlooks or fails to achieve, is my job. (And a large part of my job is getting my children to accept it's their job; not because I say so, or because a teacher says so, but because knowledge is useful, and understanding something is a wonderful internal reinforcer.)

If the school's homework leads toward the overall goal of my child being both educated and well-balanced, we do it enthusiastically. If not, not.

One of the stories I relate to my kids frequently pertains to a hypothetical bridge-builder who got straight A's in school. In our school system, that means he got 90% or better on all his tests. Yay, oh, yay! Then I ask them if they'd drive on a bridge built by a guy who got one out of every 10 necessary calculations wrong....

The public school's standards are way below mine. At home, we don't consider something learned until it's memorized, internalized, and understood in relation to other subjects. Within the bounds of age-appropriateness, we revisit subjects, expand subjects, and explore concepts all the time.

While education is extremely important to our family, so are other things, including friendships, leisure time spent with family members, reading, solitary studies, crafts, chores, spiritual and emotional development, and many other endeavors. There must be balance, and I'm in a much better position to help my children achieve it than a public school teacher.

Why is that controversial?
Speaking as an educator, GOOD FOR YOU!
I would hope the teachers would grow from the interactions. Fact is, we are all learning all the time. There is no one right way to teach and having an engaged parent means one less child the teacher has to worry too much about. I'm more concerned about kids who have parents who don't care about the actual goal, "That the child learns useful skills".

I've got mixed feelings on learning powerpoint. I think it is good for kids to learn how to use computers. But I dislike the fact that it's powerpoint they are learning.
Why not excel?

[arthwollipot]

But here's where the importance of PTA meetings comes in. If a teacher is sending home too much HW, and truly is inappropriate (unlikely, given how much planning goes into a curriculum), then you absolutely need to come into the PTA meeting, and present your concerns in a reasonable and professional manner. Leave your anger and discontent at home when conversing with teachers. It doesn't help the problem, and will likely make a teacher withdraw even more.Yes, we did. We were told that the homework really didn't matter very much. They were not exactly confidence-inspiring. If the homework didn't matter, then why set it?

Why not present it to someone who actually has influence over the curriculum instead, like the teacher, or the teacher's direct supervisor (the principal)? The PTA is a waste of time for all involved.No, not in this area. Not only do we have regular parent-teacher evenings, but the schools also have P&C (parents & citizens) meetings, which are about as close to the American school board as we get. The difference is that the P&C doesn't get to set the curriculum. We've participated in the P&C as well, at various times.

[Nihilianth]

Yes, we did. We were told that the homework really didn't matter very much. They were not exactly confidence-inspiring. If the homework didn't matter, then why set it?
.

Did you ask that question? Did you come fully prepared with questions about HW, and the viability of it? Did you come prepared with any research showing just how much HW negatively impacts a child's education?

I can tell you, that HW does not negatively impact the education of children, if it as administered correctly. Unfortunately, there are far too many school who do their own things, and ignore the standards handed down by the departments of education. I see you are not from the US, but I know one of the problems with American schools is the lack of standards across the board.

[TheGoldcountry]

I realize that I am speaking from personal experience, but public education is purposely engineered for the lowest common denominator. Every student is treated the same, regardless of personal considerations. Some teachers (my sister, for example) do take the time to treat students with special needs differently. However, there are only so many hours in a day.

DallasDad is being assaulted here with different viewpoints on education, but I think the most important argument is being missed here- HE as a parent is making the final decision regarding his children's education. Everyone here has made some very interesting arguments regarding public education and homework, but I personally feel that he should be the final arbiter when it comes to his own family. I might disagree with him on separate issues, but I wouldn't allow anyone else to override my personal judgment regarding my family, as I imagine no one else here would either.

[fuelair]

I realize that I am speaking from personal experience, but public education is purposely engineered for the lowest common denominator. Every student is treated the same, regardless of personal considerations. Some teachers (my sister, for example) do take the time to treat students with special needs differently. However, there are only so many hours in a day.

DallasDad is being assaulted here with different viewpoints on education, but I think the most important argument is being missed here- HE as a parent is making the final decision regarding his children's education. Everyone here has made some very interesting arguments regarding public education and homework, but I personally feel that he should be the final arbiter when it comes to his own family. I might disagree with him on separate issues, but I wouldn't allow anyone else to override my personal judgment regarding my family, as I imagine no one else here would either.Please read my post 54 (or read it again if you did already). And, assuming you are in the US, remember that ADHD is an ese area and ese is fed covered out the wazzo so, unless something very illegal is going on at the school(s) DD's kids went/are going to, DD left out their ieps and all that means. (for non educators with no ese kids, IEP is Individualized Education Plan and spells out the modifications of all material, activities, etc. involved in the ese child's education. A new one is drawn up every year with input from admin, guidance, ese teacher, regular teacher(s) and parents. It is a legal document and lawsuits can and do ensue if it is not followed. Therefore, no teacher following it can be legally giving homework that is beyond the level/complexity, time needed to do and whatever else was determined for the document and already agreed to by the parent. This sounds very suspicious at this point (DD may not be responding for a good reason right now, but as soon as he mentioned ADHD I knew there was a big problem with the process as he described it).

[Dorian Gray]

People went to college and got degrees in order to teach my kids, but I'll decide what they learn and how much homework they do and let them out of it if they think it's too hard. Also, if I disagree with their doctor about how to practice medicine or what they should eat, I tell the doctor that I am in charge of their medicine and he can take a flying leap, and so can the nurses. That's what the internet is for.

If I disagree with a cop about whether to buckle my child's seat belt or how fast to drive, I let him know, and I tear his ticket up right in front of him. And who is a stupid store stock boy to tell me that the store's items "don't belong to me" when I walk out? Ridiculous, the audacity of some people. Like that other gas station clerk, running out to try to get me to pay for gas. I'm in a hurry, jerkface! Do I look like I have time to go in and pay you?

I swear, my kids should be able to do whatever they want as long as they don't bug me. Their schooling is not as important as my impetuous needs.

[Dorian Gray]

I realize that I am speaking from personal experience, but public education is purposely engineered for the lowest common denominator. Every student is treated the same, regardless of personal considerations. Some teachers (my sister, for example) do take the time to treat students with special needs differently. However, there are only so many hours in a day.
Wrong. There are honors classes and special needs classes. Some students get As and some get Cs. Some are athletic, some academic, and some both or neither. Some students can go to college and get high school credit at the same time. You don't know what you're talking about.

[arthwollipot]

Did you ask that question? Did you come fully prepared with questions about HW, and the viability of it? Did you come prepared with any research showing just how much HW negatively impacts a child's education? To a certain extent, yes, but I wasn't present at the last couple so I don't have the direct experience and am only going on my partner's reports. Furthermore, as I mentioned, the homework regime has become a lot more reasonable in the last two years since they've been at high school. No complaints thus far.

I see you are not from the US, but I know one of the problems with American schools is the lack of standards across the board.Lack of standards isn't something we have a problem with in Australia. Lack of adherence to the standards on the other hand...

DallasDad is being assaulted here with different viewpoints on education, but I think the most important argument is being missed here- HE as a parent is making the final decision regarding his children's education.To be honest, I don't trust most parents to make those decisions. With few exceptions, most parents are not experts in pedagogy. I know I'm not. I wouldn't want someone like me in charge of my childrens' education. I'd vastly prefer to have someone who knows how to teach and what to teach - someone who is educated in the subject of teaching and what constitutes best practice. In short, a teacher. I'm not a teacher, and even if I were I wouldn't be a good one. My experience is that most parents aren't. Most have directed their studies in directions other than pedagogy, like I did.

Which is why it is so disappointing when credentialled educators make such bad decisions about what homework to set.

[Nihilianth]

To a certain extent, yes, but I wasn't present at the last couple so I don't have the direct experience and am only going on my partner's reports. Furthermore, as I mentioned, the homework regime has become a lot more reasonable in the last two years since they've been at high school. No complaints thus far.

Well, it's good to hear they've gotten better over there. But the worry I have, is whether or not parents and students alike are complaining about "too much HW," in order to change policies if studies shows those parents and students are incorrect.

One of the dangers to the education system, are uninformed parents about student learning. Parents should probably do a little bit of research on their own, if they are truly concerned about how schools are teaching their children. And certainly, the schools can be wrong, and are no where near perfect. Which is why they appreciate input from parents. (I dunno about Australian schools though. I would highly bet they like to hear from parents as well.)

Lack of standards isn't something we have a problem with in Australia. Lack of adherence to the standards on the other hand...

This is where a lot of schools can and do falter. That is why parents should educate themselves on some of the standards, and how the school practices education. It's great to hear informed criticisms from parents. This is my first year teaching full-time, and I totally encourage my parents to let me know where I may be falling short. It helps me to improve as an educator.

To be honest, I don't trust most parents to make those decisions. With few exceptions, most parents are not experts in pedagogy. I know I'm not. I wouldn't want someone like me in charge of my childrens' education. I'd vastly prefer to have someone who knows how to teach and what to teach - someone who is educated in the subject of teaching and what constitutes best practice. In short, a teacher. I'm not a teacher, and even if I were I wouldn't be a good one. My experience is that most parents aren't. Most have directed their studies in directions other than pedagogy, like I did.

Which is why it is so disappointing when credentialled educators make such bad decisions about what homework to set.

I totally agree with you on this entire thing. People in all fields make bad decisions now and then. Nobody is perfect, and neither is any organization, so long as it is made up of humans. This does not mean parents should get all up-in-arms, and get so angry with teachers and schools. The whole reason why DD got jumped on, is because his posts were a bit unprofessional in how he made it sounds like he confronts teachers at his sons' school. his mentality was the wrong mentality as well ("I call the shots!" The teacher serves my kid!" "The teachers works for me!")

It is far better if a parent is able to take a step back, take a deep breath, and think about the job of the teachers. What they have to do day-in, and day-out. It's a really tough job, without any appreciation. The kids can wear on you throughout the day. They really wear on you throughout the year. Without the support from parents, without the constructive criticism and decent professionalism, your wearing on the teachers even more than the kids possibly could in the entire year. Parents can only make matter much worse. Parents and teachers need to be on the same side, even if they disagree.

[Cayvmann]

I don't see how "not doing homework" provides some sort of benefit overall. Homework should be a reasonable part of education and must be taylored to fit the students' age. When listening to a lecture, only about 10-20% of what you hear is remembered. Homework is the performance part and a student will learn 90% of what is performed.

glenn



The fact that it's not tailored, in any way, to the child's age or abilities is the big problem. You have the learning process backwards, as do the schools. You should be taught "all" of the necessary information in class. Homework should just solidify that learning.

Most of what my daughter brings home is work that wasn't explained in class, and she's supposed to learn it on her own. Most of class times, at various parts of the year, are spent learning how to take the EOG tests...

I've had to teach her a lot of the math that she's brought home, and while not very often, I've told her to forget putting any effort into useless homework, instead of staying up late and missing sleep. Yep, I tell her to just put something down on paper, so the teacher will be happy. They don't grade it, so why put in that much effort? Simple economics.

Hours of homework a night is asinine, especially for a middle or elementary school child.


Someone mentioned an appropriate amount of time for homework. According to the following article, it's much less than hours a night:

http://www.parenthood.com/article-topics/whats_the_right_amount_of_homework.html

[Nihilianth]

The fact that it's not tailored, in any way, to the child's age or abilities is the big problem. You have the learning process backwards, as do the schools. You should be taught "all" of the necessary information in class. Homework should just solidify that learning.

Most of what my daughter brings home is work that wasn't explained in class, and she's supposed to learn it on her own. Most of class times, at various parts of the year, are spent learning how to take the EOG tests...

I've had to teach her a lot of the math that she's brought home, and while not very often, I've told her to forget putting any effort into useless homework, instead of staying up late and missing sleep. Yep, I tell her to just put something down on paper, so the teacher will be happy. They don't grade it, so why put in that much effort? Simple economics.

Hours of homework a night is asinine, especially for a middle or elementary school child.


Someone mentioned an appropriate amount of time for homework. According to the following article, it's much less than hours a night:

http://www.parenthood.com/article-topics/whats_the_right_amount_of_homework.html

If HW does approach and/or exceed an hour, parents should chunk the time their young children spend into 15 minute increments.

Soon as the child gets home from school, have them start in on something. If it takes more than 15 minutes, take it away, but come back to it again an hour, 2 hours, 3 hours later, depending on the amount of work, and your confidence of how much longer the child needs to finish up.

Maybe allow the kid to get home from school, grab a bite to eat. Do 15 minutes of HW, then scoot their butts outside for a couple of hours. When they get back in, feed them again. After eating a second time, another 15 minutes of HW.

It all comes down to time-management. I do agree that spending more than 2 hours of HW for even high school kids is too much time.

Personally, as a third-grade teacher, I never assign HW that should take more than 30 miinutes to complete already. Some assignments are long, of course, because they have to learn to write on their own. So book reports should perhaps take a half hour at minimum.

As for assigning work that has not yet been covered in class, making the child figure something out on their own is never harmful. Once in a while, I assign a concept that I don't plan on covering in class that day. But the kid has resources at their disposal to figure it out on their own.

One of my biggest pet-peaves when I was in college, was when another student would ask the professor a question that is easily obtainable on their own. Like asking the definition of a technical term. Well, duh! The word is probably in the glossary of your book, or on the internet! That's one of my biggest fears when people say "the teacher should not be assigning work that wasn't covered in class." Well, maybe there was a reason for that. I certainly have a damn good reason for assigning every single work that must be done outside of class. And sometimes, that involves the child figuring it out on their own.

[Hindmost]

The fact that it's not tailored, in any way, to the child's age or abilities is the big problem. You have the learning process backwards, as do the schools. You should be taught "all" of the necessary information in class. Homework should just solidify that learning.

Most of what my daughter brings home is work that wasn't explained in class, and she's supposed to learn it on her own. Most of class times, at various parts of the year, are spent learning how to take the EOG tests...

I've had to teach her a lot of the math that she's brought home, and while not very often, I've told her to forget putting any effort into useless homework, instead of staying up late and missing sleep. Yep, I tell her to just put something down on paper, so the teacher will be happy. They don't grade it, so why put in that much effort? Simple economics.

Hours of homework a night is asinine, especially for a middle or elementary school child.


Someone mentioned an appropriate amount of time for homework. According to the following article, it's much less than hours a night:

http://www.parenthood.com/article-topics/whats_the_right_amount_of_homework.html

You have posted a bit of a strawman…I never indicated that hours of homework are appropriate for middle or elementary school children. I pointed out that homework should be age appropriate. I also agree that the homework should be tailored to student abilities. The link you posted is a reasonable approach to homework and clearly indicates its benefits—and I concur.


The homework debate will (http://www.parenthood.com/article-topics/whats_the_right_amount_of_homework.html/page/2#) undoubtedly continue for many years, but all the evidence suggests that the right amount of homework, designed appropriately for the developmental level of the child, does promote learning.


What you have described is a problem with a specific teacher. I would recommend meeting with the teacher and your child to determine the best path to getting appropriate assignments. However, you have entitled your child to ignore the assignment—I fail to see the benefits of that approach. (Plus the teacher should grade all assignments).

You also indicate that I have the learning process backwards. I haven’t posted a learning process. I have to assume when I posted that a person will only remember a small percent of what they hear, you considered that advocating only teaching the small percentage of a concept. That would be incorrect. I was emphasizing one cannot get everything out of a lecture and homework is necessary.

Now, as far as teaching all of what is needed in class and have homework solidify it…what you are indicating an overly simple and content driven approach—just drill/memorize. It does not ask the student to stretch their mind, think about applications or analyze and draw conclusions. A good lecture will teach all the concepts a student needs to understand—the teacher will then guide students through applications and later provide a homework assignment that applies the concepts and encourages the student extend that knowledge. Example: Teach students about latent heat of fusion of water during class and then ask why orange farmers spray water on their orange trees when it is going to freeze in the evening for homework. (for high school students)

glenn

[fuelair]

You have posted a bit of a strawman…I never indicated that hours of homework are appropriate for middle or elementary school children. I pointed out that homework should be age appropriate. I also agree that the homework should be tailored to student abilities. The link you posted is a reasonable approach to homework and clearly indicates its benefits—and I concur.





What you have described is a problem with a specific teacher. I would recommend meeting with the teacher and your child to determine the best path to getting appropriate assignments. However, you have entitled your child to ignore the assignment—I fail to see the benefits of that approach. (Plus the teacher should grade all assignments).

You also indicate that I have the learning process backwards. I haven’t posted a learning process. I have to assume when I posted that a person will only remember a small percent of what they hear, you considered that advocating only teaching the small percentage of a concept. That would be incorrect. I was emphasizing one cannot get everything out of a lecture and homework is necessary.

Now, as far as teaching all of what is needed in class and have homework solidify it…what you are indicating an overly simple and content driven approach—just drill/memorize. It does not ask the student to stretch their mind, think about applications or analyze and draw conclusions. A good lecture will teach all the concepts a student needs to understand—the teacher will then guide students through applications and later provide a homework assignment that applies the concepts and encourages the student extend that knowledge. Example: Teach students about latent heat of fusion of water during class and then ask why orange farmers spray water on their orange trees when it is going to freeze in the evening for homework. (for high school students)

glennYou will be happy to hear that I did exactly that in Int. Sci. class yesterday and today (Not so much the latent heat part - this isn't chem/physics but simplified prep for them - the basic concepts) [block schedule, have the classes ca. 1.5 hr.]

[Nihilianth]

You have posted a bit of a strawman…I never indicated that hours of homework are appropriate for middle or elementary school children. I pointed out that homework should be age appropriate. I also agree that the homework should be tailored to student abilities. The link you posted is a reasonable approach to homework and clearly indicates its benefits—and I concur.





What you have described is a problem with a specific teacher. I would recommend meeting with the teacher and your child to determine the best path to getting appropriate assignments. However, you have entitled your child to ignore the assignment—I fail to see the benefits of that approach. (Plus the teacher should grade all assignments).

You also indicate that I have the learning process backwards. I haven’t posted a learning process. I have to assume when I posted that a person will only remember a small percent of what they hear, you considered that advocating only teaching the small percentage of a concept. That would be incorrect. I was emphasizing one cannot get everything out of a lecture and homework is necessary.

Now, as far as teaching all of what is needed in class and have homework solidify it…what you are indicating an overly simple and content driven approach—just drill/memorize. It does not ask the student to stretch their mind, think about applications or analyze and draw conclusions. A good lecture will teach all the concepts a student needs to understand—the teacher will then guide students through applications and later provide a homework assignment that applies the concepts and encourages the student extend that knowledge. Example: Teach students about latent heat of fusion of water during class and then ask why orange farmers spray water on their orange trees when it is going to freeze in the evening for homework. (for high school students)

glenn

Could not have put it better myself.:)

[jj]

Ok, look. I just had my youngest go to college. Mom and dad are both ex-Bell Labs. Both of my kids had more high-school homework in a year than either of us had in 3 years.

Not only that, 85-95% of it was rote work, work that didn't teach anything. It didn't teach, it didn't force kids to practice skills, it just had to be filled out. In short, it was uninteresting, uninspiring, and a waste of time. It was also graded on weight, basically, you didn't have to be right, but you'd better have done it all, or else. Failure to turn in homework was harder on your grade than doing badly on a test. This is stupid, folks. No care for actually learning the skills, only for being willing to act like a mule in a carriageyard.

Both went to community college for their senior HS year. Both of them had literally 1/10th of the homework, and learned much, much more than they did in the previous HS year, without the time stress, without the frustration, and with much, MUCH greater interest in the subjects.

Homework and me? I never did it unless it was graded, and I selected teachers who only gave extra credit for the homework. So, as a result, I didn't need it to get good grades.

Ditto in college.

Homework does NOT mean you're learning anything. It can mean that, or it can mean that the school is pushing a bunch of useless make-work that is pretty much designed to teach every student to hold learning in absolute, utter contempt.

So why should we be upset when somebody objects to the rote-work waste of time?

The stuff that actually helps people learn I'm all for.

[Tsukasa Buddha]

I'm trying to figure out what this "time wasting" homework is.

In elementary, I agree that parents are doing a lot of the work. But if you need to use a computer with PP and a printer, there is the library. If the library doesn't have one, you try a friend or relative, and then talk to the teacher. Learning how to find books for research is part of the point of starting to do research projects.

And if your kid has ADHD, you can set up programs with the school in most cases.

Honestly, if a kid says a teacher didn't teach them something on their homework, the kid is probably the one in the wrong :p .

[arthwollipot]

Honestly, if a kid says a teacher didn't teach them something on their homework, the kid is probably the one in the wrong :p .The thought had crossed my mind.

[Nihilianth]

Ok, look. I just had my youngest go to college. Mom and dad are both ex-Bell Labs. Both of my kids had more high-school homework in a year than either of us had in 3 years.

Not only that, 85-95% of it was rote work, work that didn't teach anything. It didn't teach, it didn't force kids to practice skills, it just had to be filled out. In short, it was uninteresting, uninspiring, and a waste of time. It was also graded on weight, basically, you didn't have to be right, but you'd better have done it all, or else. Failure to turn in homework was harder on your grade than doing badly on a test. This is stupid, folks. No care for actually learning the skills, only for being willing to act like a mule in a carriageyard.

Both went to community college for their senior HS year. Both of them had literally 1/10th of the homework, and learned much, much more than they did in the previous HS year, without the time stress, without the frustration, and with much, MUCH greater interest in the subjects.

Homework and me? I never did it unless it was graded, and I selected teachers who only gave extra credit for the homework. So, as a result, I didn't need it to get good grades.

Ditto in college.

Homework does NOT mean you're learning anything. It can mean that, or it can mean that the school is pushing a bunch of useless make-work that is pretty much designed to teach every student to hold learning in absolute, utter contempt.

So why should we be upset when somebody objects to the rote-work waste of time?

The stuff that actually helps people learn I'm all for.

Now, listen! For about the TENTH TIME in this thread [!!!] (Thought this was supposed to be a forum which champions "critical thinking." And I always thought listening to an argument was part of that, but it appears I may be quite wrong in that assessment.)

Anyway, for about the tenthth time, if you honestly think your kids are getting too much HW, or it is inappropriate, there are outlets to express your concerns. If you are in the USA, there are PTA meetings that which you can go to. You can approach and speak with your teacher (in a civil manner, of course!) You can talk to other parents about what concerns you. I'm sure the vast majority of other countries has similar processes.

If you do not take advantage of those opportunities, the schools will continue to do what they are currently doing, and/or you will not get a chance to learn why they do what they do. Schools are run by experts in the field of educating the youth. If you think you know something those experts don't, then by all means, attend the meetings and present your case.

If it is a case of an individual teacher or school who is giving out "too much homework that is uninspiring" and whatnot, then you need to address it. My experiences of HS appears to have been the same as your kids, but my experience of being a teacher seems to be different from your kids' teachers. (Currently teaching third grade with a secondary education degree, so....ya know.) Of course, I graduated HS in 2002, and have only been a full-time teacher for a year (this is my first year.)

But honestly, if you have not addressed your concerns in the proper manner about an issue when it comes to what your kids' school did, then whose to blame? The school has no idea what issues you have, unless you let them know. And you have no idea why a school or a teacher assigns the work they do, unless you find out.

Of course there are going to be assignments which are uninteresting. The point of high school is to get a basic foundational education. The point of college is to take the courses which you choose for the field of work that you wish to get into. Of course, the first two years of college is pretty much glorified high school with the gen-eds, but you still get to pick most of those. But the point is, not everyone is going to like Algebra, but everyone has to take it. Not everyone is going to find Western Civilization (or American History, or what have you) to very boring and uninspiring. But everyone has to take it. And of course assignments for courses that you hate, are going to be assignments that you hate, and likely will write them off as being "inappropriate, uninspiring, and taking too long."

Myself, as an example, I had to take microeconomics in my first year of college. THAT was the most boring, uninteresting, and uninspiring subject I have ever had the mispleasure of taking. But it was required gen-ed course material for my major, which was secondary education. Did I bitch and moan about having to take it? No, I sucked it up, got through the course, and passed. I then talked to an administrator about the course and found out why it was a required class. They said because those going into the teaching profession have to be "the most well-rounded majors than any others at the school. It is pretty helpful to know something about economics, because most teachers start out as substitutes, and who knows what class you might get placed in on any given day? It could very well be a history course that happens to be covering something to do with economics. At least you have had the background now." Fine, that was fair enough, and it made sense. I learned something, and didn't come off as being a complete jackass.

If I had not confronted the administration, and if I happened to be a person who got easily angered over minor issues, or feel like my rights are getting stomped all over, I likely would never have confronted them. I likely would have just sat around bitching about it. And I most certainly would never have learned the reason why it was assigned to me, pissing me off even further.

Thankfully, I am the kind of person who tends to confront problems head-on, and deal with them. Sitting around, being all upset about something is a useless waste of time for me. And lord knows, I don't have that kind of time to waste. Disrespecting those who are in a particular field; and have been doing it for a long time; because I think I know more than them when it comes to one particular issue, is also a useless waste of time. Not only that, but I would be absolutely terrified of coming off as a pompous ******* who doesn't know what the hell I am talking about.

Having said all of that, I am basing my assessment on how some who are posting in this thread are coming off in here. Instead of coming in here, saying something like "I think it is stupid how the schools are run!! OMG!! They have WAY too much homework!!"

How about coming in, saying something more along the lines of: "I think there is too much HW for high school kids these days. My kid would spend more than two hours every single night working on their HW. I think it is important they spend some time relaxing, and/or going out to play after spending 8 hours at school all day. What is the point of HW? And why does there have to be so much? What should I do to raise this issue to the school, and show I am seriously concerned about the amount of HW after talking to the school a number of times? The school doesn't seem to listen or care a whole lot."

The above paragraph is a lot more patient, you have expressed your true concerns, and showed you are willing to at least listen to a solution in order to solve a problem. It also shows what your character is like. You may have achieved success in at having the chance of the school possibly consider changing policy. At the very least, you may have learned something along the way.

Using the words "it's so stupid!!" also shows your character. It is quite telling how you probably have handled it IRL, and is likely the reason for your dissatisfaction. It also shows you have already formed a strong opinion, and makes it seem like you will not have your mind changed, which in turn means it seems like you are unwilling to listen to the reasons why a school does what it does, which will only deepen your dissatisfaction even further. You have not addressed the problem, you have alienated the school, and you have not learned anything.

[Nihilianth]

I'm trying to figure out what this "time wasting" homework is.

In elementary, I agree that parents are doing a lot of the work. But if you need to use a computer with PP and a printer, there is the library. If the library doesn't have one, you try a friend or relative, and then talk to the teacher. Learning how to find books for research is part of the point of starting to do research projects.

And if your kid has ADHD, you can set up programs with the school in most cases.

Honestly, if a kid says a teacher didn't teach them something on their homework, the kid is probably the one in the wrong :p .

That is a good point. If you don't own PP, or at the very least a printer, there are bound to be ways to easily get your hands on one. Public libraries sometimes have PP, school libraries almost all the time have it, but they all have a printer. And it only costs a quarter to print per page. That's a dollar 25 for a 5 page report. No big deal. You can also pick up a 1 gig flash drive for like 10 bucks at Wal-Mart or something like that to save your PP presentation, and the paper your kid typed out.

If you really are seriously broke enough where you don't have $11.25, there are usually subsidies you can apply for. And in fact, most schools also sell at a much cheaper price, and sometimes give away, such things as flash drives anyway.

[Nihilianth]

To illustrate the importance of homework (and learning) I present a Psychology text book: Psychology in Everyday Life by David G. Myers.

In the first chapter, it talks about "how to be a successful student." The book utilizes a method which Myers has outlined, called "SQ3R:" Survey, Question, Read, Rehearse, and Review. It also explains how the brain is a muscle, and like developing all other muscles in the body, you must put some time and effort into exercising it, in order to make it stronger.

It talks quite extensively about time-management, how to organize your work space, and minimize distractions. All key components of learning. It says that "if you need four hours to study, it is best to divide that time up over several days."

And studying is incredibly important. The teacher can go over all the course material in a given class, but if the student doesn't take good notes and study the material the teacher went over that day, it is hopeless for the student to retain anything. And so, that is where HW comes in. Most students at the high school, and especially middle and elementary school, are not going to come home and just study well-written notes they took that day. Instead, the teacher must assign homework that must be complete in order to show the student at least LOOKED at the material.

Now, for SQ3R, and to show just how much effort must be put forth into learning:


Survey: Before you read a chapter [Everyday Life], survey its key parts. Note that main sections have numbered study questions to help you focus. Pay attention to the various headings, which indicate important subtopics, and to words set in bold type. Scan the last few pages of the chapter, where you will see a list of important terms and concepts. You will also find a concept map that provides a visual overview of main points in the chapter.

Surveying give you the big picture of a chapter's content and organization. Getting a grasp on the chapter's logical sections will help you set your specific goals for daily study sessions, when you'll be reading the chapter more carefully.

I wrote that one word-for-word directly from the book, just to illustrate just how much effort must go into the learning process.

I will paraphrase the other key components:

Question: Basically, as you "Survey" a chapter, you are to begin to come up with your own set of questions, jotting them down before actually reading the chapter from end-to-end. I know some text books contain questions throughout a given chapter in various areas. This one included.

Read: As you read, remember to read actively. The survey and the questions you came up with, and the ones you found throughout the chapter while surveying, are to help focus your attention to actively reading.

Rehearse: When you find the answer to one of the questions, you are to close your eyes, and mentally recite the answer several times. Then the book wants you to write the answer next to the question, using your own words, not the author's.

Review: When you have answered all the questions and read all the text, go back to review those same questions, and the text.

Now, all of that takes quite a bit of time and effort to complete. And that is just one study session. Teachers want their students to be putting time and effort into their homework assignments, because that is what it takes. Nobody says that the learning process is easy. In fact, it takes quite a bit of time and effort. Those who learn to utilize that time at a younger age, will be better equipped to figure out how to get more advanced subjects finished later on in life.

In conclusion: Though "studies" may find that homework at a young age is not immediately beneficial, good luck establishing good study and assignment habits for the student when they are a bit older. Most habits like that are established at a young age.

[TragicMonkey]

I'm impressed that everyone else seems to have had teachers than actually invented their own homework. The vast majority of mine was always "answer the questions at the end of the chapter in the book", which would then be compared to the answer key in the teacher's edition. Learning accomplished.

[Nihilianth]

I'm impressed that everyone else seems to have had teachers than actually invented their own homework. The vast majority of mine was always "answer the questions at the end of the chapter in the book", which would then be compared to the answer key in the teacher's edition. Learning accomplished.

haha, right? Most homework is pretty standard across the board. :D:rolleyes::boggled:

[fuelair]

I'm trying to figure out what this "time wasting" homework is.

And if your kid has ADHD, you can set up programs with the school in most cases.

Honestly, if a kid says a teacher didn't teach them something on their homework, the kid is probably the one in the wrong :p .

Re: ADHD (and many other situations) - a number of people have overlooked post IIRC 53 (my name anyway) it's not can, it's will - feds say so. All explained (twice ) above. Saves a lot of the discussion and ends several of the arguments.:)

[jj]

Schools are run by experts in the field of educating the youth. If you think you know something those experts don't, then by all means, attend the meetings and present your case.

Schools are often (but not always) run by people who cite the theory-of-the-month, and will cite it to you until they turn blue in the face, citing material which runs directly opposite what we know about cognative psychology, of which I happen to know a fair amount. These "experts" recite what they were taught by another "expert" as though it is gospet truth, and respond to challenges asking for the testable, verifiable evidence of their assertion with great indignation, as in "how dare you question me, I'm the expert".

Sorry, no, an expert can hold a dialog on an experiment that demonstrates part of learning. Someone who can only quote what they were taught 12 years ago in college, and not deal with questions or details of that research, is not an expert, he or she is anything but.

So, no, your attack on me, which has, in fact, ranged into the personal, is shown to be without basis, misguided, and frankly indefensible.

I have nothing further to say to you.

[jj]

It also explains how the brain is a muscle, and like developing all other muscles in the body, you must put some time and effort into exercising it, in order to make it stronger.

WHAT? I guess I DO have something more to say to you, and what you've cited here is suitable to show why I must dismiss anything you say.

The brain is not a muscle. It consists of nothing with contractile fibres, and does not gain fibre mass when exercised or when the myosin is disrupted by exercise or stress. It does not turn ATP into resetting muscle fibres, or firing myosin to contract. Muscles have a small, proximate length, and can convert both glucose and glycogen into energy via the standard oxadative pathways. Muscles turn energy into motion.

The brain is a neural net. It certainly learns by doing, but hardly in the same fashion as a muscle. Repitition is valuable, it helps build and reinforce pathways, and help useless pathways wither away, but calling it a muscle is simply indefensible. Learning how to reduce situations to their component parts is a large part of cognition, and learning how to focus on the relevant parts of a question, likewise, is something that requires a great deal of practice, training, and native ability. Neurons can only use glucose, not glucogen, because of their length and distance from the nucleus to the end of the nerve, and also because of their high energy demand. There is little similarity here, either in organization or in basic cell structure. Now, some nerve tissue DOES change length, this happens to be the outer hair cells in the organ of Corti. These are hardly the same as muscle tissue, and like other nerve tissue, "burn" glucose. Neurons turn energy into electrical pulses.

Certainly you must exercise your brain, but you have the choice to exercise it in a repetitive fashion, say by doing the same "facts of mathematics" over and over again (yes, those are quotes of contempt), or by learning new methods to examine and understand issues, and rise to a new level of analytic thinking that rises beyond mere repetition and memorization.

Equating them to muscles is simply inappropriate to the point of silliness. Quoting someone who says as much as evidence for your contentions is even worse.

[Nihilianth]

Schools are often (but not always) run by people who cite the theory-of-the-month, and will cite it to you until they turn blue in the face, citing material which runs directly opposite what we know about cognative psychology, of which I happen to know a fair amount. These "experts" recite what they were taught by another "expert" as though it is gospet truth, and respond to challenges asking for the testable, verifiable evidence of their assertion with great indignation, as in "how dare you question me, I'm the expert".

Sorry, no, an expert can hold a dialog on an experiment that demonstrates part of learning. Someone who can only quote what they were taught 12 years ago in college, and not deal with questions or details of that research, is not an expert, he or she is anything but.

So, no, your attack on me, which has, in fact, ranged into the personal, is shown to be without basis, misguided, and frankly indefensible.

I have nothing further to say to you.

Like I said, if you have proof for your claims, then by all means, bring it in and present it. Unless you have done so personally, your claims that the teachers and schools will dismiss it out of hand is unsupported.

Now, how does my post to you "border on a personal attack?" The first few lines, maybe. But that only constitutes probably all of about 5% of what I have said. I addressed you in a manner in order to inform you and other parents how best to handle a situation you think is wrong.

Now, you can either accept that advice or not. But I ask that you don't ignore what I said, and continue to make unsubstantiated claims and complaints for which you don't appear to attempt to solve in a professional manner, as some posts in here clearly indicate.

[Nihilianth]

WHAT? I guess I DO have something more to say to you, and what you've cited here is suitable to show why I must dismiss anything you say.

The brain is not a muscle. It consists of nothing with contractile fibres, and does not gain fibre mass when exercised or when the myosin is disrupted by exercise or stress. It does not turn ATP into resetting muscle fibres, or firing myosin to contract. Muscles have a small, proximate length, and can convert both glucose and glycogen into energy via the standard oxadative pathways. Muscles turn energy into motion.

The brain is a neural net. It certainly learns by doing, but hardly in the same fashion as a muscle. Repitition is valuable, it helps build and reinforce pathways, and help useless pathways wither away, but calling it a muscle is simply indefensible. Learning how to reduce situations to their component parts is a large part of cognition, and learning how to focus on the relevant parts of a question, likewise, is something that requires a great deal of practice, training, and native ability. Neurons can only use glucose, not glucogen, because of their length and distance from the nucleus to the end of the nerve, and also because of their high energy demand. There is little similarity here, either in organization or in basic cell structure. Now, some nerve tissue DOES change length, this happens to be the outer hair cells in the organ of Corti. These are hardly the same as muscle tissue, and like other nerve tissue, "burn" glucose. Neurons turn energy into electrical pulses.

Certainly you must exercise your brain, but you have the choice to exercise it in a repetitive fashion, say by doing the same "facts of mathematics" over and over again (yes, those are quotes of contempt), or by learning new methods to examine and understand issues, and rise to a new level of analytic thinking that rises beyond mere repetition and memorization.

Equating them to muscles is simply inappropriate to the point of silliness. Quoting someone who says as much as evidence for your contentions is even worse.

You have a point, and I can concede this. After all, I am no expert in the field of psychology.

But I honestly don't think the writer meant to say it is a muscle. And in fact, I missed the word "like" in that post in any case.

If you take this sentence as a whole, rather than take the part about it "being a muscle" out of context:

"It also explains how the brain is a muscle, and like developing all other muscles in the body, you must put some time and effort into exercising it, in order to make it stronger."

I paraphrased that. I do not have the book with me to phrase the EXACT words it said in the book. But I think one can surmise in this sentence that the purpose of comparing the brain to muscle by explaining that it takes time and effort to develop it, is valid.

And no need to get all pissed off and up-in-arms. I didn't do anything to you, nor did I say anything untoward. I merely told the truth about the importance of using a little bit of diplomacy is far better to get what you want in a satisfying manner, than shouting down people with an opposing view in order to get what you want that may actually be detrimental.

[jj]

Like I said, if you have proof for your claims, then by all means, bring it in and present it. Unless you have done so personally, your claims that the teachers and schools will dismiss it out of hand is unsupported.

How typical, if I want to argue with somebody who doesn't even understand the would-be "facts" they're pushing at me, I have to run my own experiments, not cite the massive quantity of stuff in the literature that any EXPERT would already be aware of.

And that, by the way, is the point. An EXPERT would not be telling me what they are telling me, and would, furthermore, be interested in controverting publications and experiments.

[Nihilianth]

How typical, if I want to argue with somebody who doesn't even understand the would-be "facts" they're pushing at me, I have to run my own experiments, not cite the massive quantity of stuff in the literature that any EXPERT would already be aware of.

And that, by the way, is the point. An EXPERT would not be telling me what they are telling me, and would, furthermore, be interested in controverting publications and experiments.

You don't need to shout out the word "expert." :eye-poppi

Quite frankly, I have no idea what you even said in this post, and what you are trying to say. I am kind of confused it, but whatever.

You didn't even address what I posted. I never said anything about running any experiments.

Furthermore, if you want to bring up concerns about the way in which schools are teaching, then by all means, once again, bring in your concerns, backed up with proof and evidence for why the theories they are implementing is all wrong, and how it can be fixed.

And please, do so in a manner where you don't have to SHOUT using 86 point font, either. It lessons your credibility in the eyes of those who are responsible for teaching your children in the public school system.

Edited to delete: Took out a line that didn't have to do with this thread. Got this line of conversation confused with another thread for a second there.

[arthwollipot]

I'm impressed that everyone else seems to have had teachers than actually invented their own homework. The vast majority of mine was always "answer the questions at the end of the chapter in the book", which would then be compared to the answer key in the teacher's edition. Learning accomplished.Standard curriculum. The homework is set by whatever committee set the curriculum.

[Nihilianth]

Standard curriculum. The homework is set by whatever committee set the curriculum.

That depends. Teachers still write their own curriculum to a certain extent. Teachers that have been in the field for more than 5 years, anyway.

This year, I was handed a curriculum I have to follow, and given the texts I have to use. The texts are usually decided by committee as well.

[Nosi]

The most logical and coherent thought I have seen here including mine (and I can't say that often). Unfortunately, this is the US and that is not happening (the idea seems to be that making everyone worry about failing is the way to get 'er done). The ultimate idea being that everyone (who is not independently wealthy) will work for nothing, worry about job security, produce a lot and die from heart disease before they get anywhere near retirement age. Oh, wait, in ten years or less, what retirement?

Never mind heart disease. Suicide.

[Roboramma]

Quite frankly, I have no idea what you even said in this post, and what you are trying to say. I am kind of confused it, but whatever.

I believe he mistook your post as suggesting that he should create the evidence himself, rather than that if it is already available he should research it and present that.

I believe was also suggesting that if these people were genuine experts, they would already be aware of the research and thus he wouldn't need to present it to them. The fact that they are unaware of it shows that they are not, in fact, experts. At least, that seems to be the thrust of the argument.

There seems to me to be a facet of this discussion that you are missing though: there is one point which is: as a parent, what is the best way to ensure that your child be educated in the best manner possible. That seems to be what you are talking about.
The other aspect, though, is this: what is the best way that the system should be run, and is it being run in that manner at present? Talking about how someone could go about changing the system if they wanted to (ie, talking to teachers, etc.) doesn't address whether or not it needs to be changed.

[Nihilianth]

I believe he mistook your post as suggesting that he should create the evidence himself, rather than that if it is already available he should research it and present that.

Ah, got ya. Yeah, no need to do any experiments on your own. Doing the research about it, and presenting it would suffice. Parents have done it on occasion, too. And the administration really, honestly and wholeheartedly does listen to what parents have to say, and they do honestly consider proposals. Especially if they are brought up at the PTA meetings.

I believe was also suggesting that if these people were genuine experts, they would already be aware of the research and thus he wouldn't need to present it to them. The fact that they are unaware of it shows that they are not, in fact, experts. At least, that seems to be the thrust of the argument.

Well, the misconception is that I am a second grade teacher, not an expert in psychology, really. In fact, I have the wrong degree to be teaching second grade. I have a Bachelor's degree in Secondary Education, an Associates in Specialized Technologies (Digital Arts.) I should be teaching computer programming, and art classes at the high school level.

I happened to have successfully gotten certified in teaching at the elementary school level, and I have already had classroom experience at that level, and a position happened to have opened up where they desperately needed someone to fill that role. So I got an interview with the school I student-taught at, and got hired for the job. It is a one-year basis, until the real teacher is able to come back.

Anyway, enough about my background. The administrators are the experts in psychology. I understand those are of whom jj was talking about, which is all well and good. That shouldn't stop any parent from doing their own research, and presenting it to the administration. They will listen to what you have to say. You are, after all, a taxpayer, and your child's well-being is partly in their hands.

You also have to come in and be receptive to a rebuttal from the administration. Have an open mind about what they may have to say about it, and listen to their logic and reasoning behind the way the curriculum is set up. Parents who do this, might themselves, learn a thing or two about "The System," and be a little more satisfied, rather than carrying around all this baggage of anger and resentment.

There seems to me to be a facet of this discussion that you are missing though: there is one point which is: as a parent, what is the best way to ensure that your child be educated in the best manner possible. That seems to be what you are talking about.

The other aspect, though, is this: what is the best way that the system should be run, and is it being run in that manner at present? Talking about how someone could go about changing the system if they wanted to (ie, talking to teachers, etc.) doesn't address whether or not it needs to be changed.

The bolded I've tried that both in this thread, and another one. The other one, I tried explaining quite extensively and exhaustively, about why the system is the way it is, and why it is the best it could be without any further input. People kept coming up with other very specific issues that were, quite frankly, bordering on nit-picking over things that are quite minor (they deem to be major.) So I kind of switched tactics, and said "well, if you are so adamant about a particular situation, and that particular situation is so bad, then here's how you can address it to get it changed."

So in essence, I offered two solutions: One was to understand and find out a bit about child development and so forth. And the other was to do some research of your own, and come up with possible solutions to fix a problem that you deem to be a major issue. There really are no other alternatives as long as your child is attending public school. At least, none that I can think of anyway.

[jj]

So in essence, I offered two solutions: One was to understand and find out a bit about child development and so forth. And the other was to do some research of your own, and come up with possible solutions to fix a problem that you deem to be a major issue.

Out of curiousity, have you, yet, noticed the mistake in the paragraph above, seeing as how it's based on an unsaid claim, not in evidence?

[ZirconBlue]

Personally. I am beginning to not give a crap if students choose to fail/their parents choose it for them. In Florida, the system has just gone from annoyingly difficult for the average student to really difficult for the average student - and impossible if they are not pushing or being pushed hard all the way through. We are watching kids who were making low Bs and Cs a month or two ago now making Fs due to a testing change (state required) essentially in early Feb. (look up Webb's Depth of Knowledge and think moving from 1,2 to almost entirely 3,5 - with no lower grades preparation. Then think about the lower grades heading the same way. Then tell me about your problem with homework for your child (or better, get with your legislator and tell him).

That cant' be right. I've been hearing for years about grade inflation and how our schools are "dumbing down" the curriculum and making everything too easy.


Many kids work longer hours for school studies than adults are legally allowed to work. Especially under the big exam seasons.

That's not something that I've ever observed in the US. Maybe that's why you guys are kicking our butts, educationally. ;)

I realize that I am speaking from personal experience, but public education is purposely engineered for the lowest common denominator. Every student is treated the same, regardless of personal considerations. Some teachers (my sister, for example) do take the time to treat students with special needs differently. However, there are only so many hours in a day.


That's not been my experience at all. While the general course curriculum may be geared toward the "typical" student, I see a lot of flexibility to address the different skill levels of individual students.

I must say this conversation is making me feel really good about the school my daughter goes to!

[Nihilianth]

Out of curiousity, have you, yet, noticed the mistake in the paragraph above, seeing as how it's based on an unsaid claim, not in evidence?

Well, considering this was what I wrote, and what the above replied to:

So in essence, I offered two solutions: One was to understand and find out a bit about child development and so forth. And the other was to do some research of your own, and come up with possible solutions to fix a problem that you deem to be a major issue.

I see nothing mentioned about anyone making any claim.....:confused:

[Nihilianth]

That cant' be right. I've been hearing for years about grade inflation and how our schools are "dumbing down" the curriculum and making everything too easy.

I think you have heard quite wrong. considering that people are complaining that a lot of material is "too difficult" in this thread, I fail to see how this could be true.

Outside the context of the thread, the "dumbing down" of curriculum are quite untrue and unfounded as well.

That's not been my experience at all. While the general course curriculum may be geared toward the "typical" student, I see a lot of flexibility to address the different skill levels of individual students.

I must say this conversation is making me feel really good about the school my daughter goes to!

The problem is, I think that people have the wrong impression about schools in general, and are just saying things that are not based on any facts or evidence. And many parents fail to show up for meetings with teachers in the real world, and even one poster in this thread had insisted that "PTA meetings are a useless waste of time."

So it's not that your daughter went to a particularly good school. It's just that parents are either misinformed, or have no idea how the education system, and the education of a child works.

[jj]

I see nothing mentioned about anyone making any claim.....:confused:

Your "proposal" contains an intrinsic assertion of fact. Can you figure out what that might be?

[ZirconBlue]

I think you have heard quite wrong. considering that people are complaining that a lot of material is "too difficult" in this thread, I fail to see how this could be true.

Outside the context of the thread, the "dumbing down" of curriculum are quite untrue and unfounded as well.

Hmm. Perhaps we do need that sarcasm font, after all.


So it's not that your daughter went to a particularly good school. It's just that parents are either misinformed, or have no idea how the education system, and the education of a child works.

If nothing else, the quality (and quantity) of homework she brings home appears to be more appropriate than what a lot other posters have described.

[Nihilianth]

Your "proposal" contains an intrinsic assertion of fact. Can you figure out what that might be?

I am quite honestly lost. Sorry.

[Nihilianth]

Hmm. Perhaps we do need that sarcasm font, after all.

My fault. All context is lost through text. :D




If nothing else, the quality (and quantity) of homework she brings home appears to be more appropriate than what a lot other posters have described.

I agree about where I come from as well.

Do you know, that over in Japan, which has the best education system in the world, that they go to school for 8-10 hours/day, 6 days a week with only three weeks off for summer, and like two weeks off in winter, and one week each in spring and fall?

Of course, Japan has an ethic of hard-work to achieve your goals in life. Western society has this issue of entitlement. Which will be the replacement of world leadership from the West to the East in the near future. Probably within a generation or two at most.

[quixotecoyote]

Of course, Japan has an ethic of hard-work to achieve your goals in life. Western society has this issue of entitlement. Which will be the replacement of world leadership from the West to the East in the near future. Probably within a generation or two at most.

Last I heard Japan was about to have a demographic crisis as its entitled elderly were outnumbering the workers.

[Avicenna]

Do you know, that over in Japan, which has the best education system in the world, that they go to school for 8-10 hours/day, 6 days a week with only three weeks off for summer, and like two weeks off in winter, and one week each in spring and fall?

They also commit suicide at a phenomenal rate and have literally no other skills bar education and an attitude that hard work and blind pigheaded work will do you well.

It's not something to aspire to. We think that wow they work hard but at what cost?


Of course, Japan has an ethic of hard-work to achieve your goals in life. Western society has this issue of entitlement. Which will be the replacement of world leadership from the West to the East in the near future. Probably within a generation or two at most.

Hardly. People regularly work hard in the west too. The issue is that Japan has a culture where everyone is marked competitively and if you muck up a competitive exam you are screwed forever no matter your talent. If my pre GCSE scores were taken into account I would have been set for a life of eating dirt (I was kind of a stupid kid. I did poorly in exams and still do unless they are oral). After GCSE and A-Levels my scores went from barely competent to high. They too will become like us where we are more lenient to people who don't wish to go into higher education or slog 6 days a week to do anything.

They will get "lazier too" as people slowly stop thinking that the only way to learn is to bang your head against books for 6 days a week.

[Nihilianth]

Last I heard Japan was about to have a demographic crisis as its entitled elderly were outnumbering the workers.

Yeah, but that's the same problem we are facing here in the West. Perhaps not nearly as severe as in Japan.

But now with that recent earthquake, I wonder what it will do to their economy over this coming decade.... Those poor people. :(

[Nihilianth]

They also commit suicide at a phenomenal rate and have literally no other skills bar education and an attitude that hard work and blind pigheaded work will do you well.

It's not something to aspire to. We think that wow they work hard but at what cost?



Hardly. People regularly work hard in the west too. The issue is that Japan has a culture where everyone is marked competitively and if you muck up a competitive exam you are screwed forever no matter your talent. If my pre GCSE scores were taken into account I would have been set for a life of eating dirt (I was kind of a stupid kid. I did poorly in exams and still do unless they are oral). After GCSE and A-Levels my scores went from barely competent to high. They too will become like us where we are more lenient to people who don't wish to go into higher education or slog 6 days a week to do anything.

They will get "lazier too" as people slowly stop thinking that the only way to learn is to bang your head against books for 6 days a week.

I suppose. I can see your point. But it's just amazing to me that a rather smallish country is the third largest economy in the world, with the highest-rated education system.

I do think that a three month vacation from school every year is counter-productive. Kids go into "lazy mode" as they really have no reuirements to do anything but play, or sit around watching TV, or play video games all summer long. Unless they are in AYSO, or Little League or something. But that only takes up 3 or 4 days, two or three hours per day out of the whole week.

By the time school starts back up, we seem to waste the first whole month, trying to get back into "school mode." I know for myself as a teacher, it's probably going to be tough to get myself back as well.

Ans the only reason why there are three months of "vacation," is simply because back in the day, that was the planting and harvesting season, and families needed their kids to help out on the farm. That is not so much true anymore. lol.

[Nosi]

Yeah, but that's the same problem we are facing here in the West. Perhaps not nearly as severe as in Japan.

But now with that recent earthquake, I wonder what it will do to their economy over this coming decade.... Those poor people. :(

I see in my crystal ball a temporary relaxation in Japan's immigration policy.

Unlike North Korea, Japan isn't shut off from the world, and other nations are coming in to aid them. Nor is this the first time Japan's had the stuff kicked out of it. World War II nearly saw Japan decimated, and two cities burned to a literal crisp ala nuclear bomb. Pre-quake Japan and post WW II Japan were unrecognizable. The nuke sites, with the exception of a few monuments and aging survivors, you wouldn't know a nuclear bomb was even near them.

[Nihilianth]

I see in my crystal ball a temporary relaxation in Japan's immigration policy.

Unlike North Korea, Japan isn't shut off from the world, and other nations are coming in to aid them. Nor is this the first time Japan's had the stuff kicked out of it. World War II nearly saw Japan decimated, and two cities burned to a literal crisp ala nuclear bomb. Pre-quake Japan and post WW II Japan were unrecognizable. The nuke sites, with the exception of a few monuments and aging survivors, you wouldn't know a nuclear bomb was even near them.

I know, but that doesn't necessarily mean it won't set their economy back. In fact, I kind of expect it to. Of course the US, China, Russia, Canada, and Europe are coming to their aid, and will get them set back up as quickly as possible. And I have full confidence that Japan will pull through this completely. But their economy will still suffer from this blow.

[Nosi]

I know, but that doesn't necessarily mean it won't set their economy back. In fact, I kind of expect it to. Of course the US, China, Russia, Canada, and Europe are coming to their aid, and will get them set back up as quickly as possible. And I have full confidence that Japan will pull through this completely. But their economy will still suffer from this blow.

That is very true.

[jj]

Ans the only reason why there are three months of "vacation," is simply because back in the day, that was the planting and harvesting season, and families needed their kids to help out on the farm. That is not so much true anymore. lol.

So, you don't think this 3 month vacation has any reading or effect on the actual maturation process, and the teaching of a balanced (i.e. not so Japanese) life style that leads to people who are both productivce and happy?

What do you think of studies that show that people are enormously productive after they take extended vacations, and tend to have the ability to "step back" and fix the real problems (i.e. fix the forest) rather than stare at the trees?

Do you think these studies are all wrong? Do you think adults should have vacations? Or should everyone work 5 out of 7 days all year without a break?

Why would you expect more from a child in this regard than you might expect from an adult, for that matter?

[quixotecoyote]

Why would you expect more from a child in this regard than you might expect from an adult, for that matter?

Adults don't generally get 3 months vacation in America. A well off worker with full employment might get 2 weeks.

[Nihilianth]

So, you don't think this 3 month vacation has any reading or effect on the actual maturation process, and the teaching of a balanced (i.e. not so Japanese) life style that leads to people who are both productivce and happy?

Do you know the only reason why the three months of vacation exist to begin with? I believe my hint is somewhere in the post you quoted.

What do you think of studies that show that people are enormously productive after they take extended vacations, and tend to have the ability to "step back" and fix the real problems (i.e. fix the forest) rather than stare at the trees?

Do you think these studies are all wrong? Do you think adults should have vacations? Or should everyone work 5 out of 7 days all year without a break?

Why would you expect more from a child in this regard than you might expect from an adult, for that matter


I did say about 2 or 3 week vacation in the summer, two or three weeks in winter, and one week each in fall and spring. Just like the Japanese do, rather than a 3 month vacation in summer, 2-3 weeks in winter, and a week off here and there throughout the rest of the school year. It appears you might have ignored that little tidbit. Studies have also shown that too long of a vacation also lowers productivity quite a bit. It is the "rust" factor, as baseball players talk about.

In any case, you are DREAMING if you think most occupations allow more than 6 weeks of vacation time a year at the very most. If you are full-time. Part-timers don't even get that.

[jj]

Do you know the only reason why the three months of vacation exist to begin with? I believe my hint is somewhere in the post you quoted.

And I repeat, what do you think of MODERN (i.e. not the original) reasons for having a vacation? Why do you even raise the issue of "exist to begin with" when that was clearly not the context of my question? Furthermore, why do you insinuate ignorance in your deliberately offensive personal attack, when your insinuation can not possibly be based in anything I've said or asserted.

Why are you trying to CHANGE THE SUBJECT and DECEIVE READERS as to the question that I asked? Is there some reason you won't answer the actual question that I asked?

Why do you expect a child to handle year-round "work" better than adults? You're the one who is suggesting, implicitly, that this is a good idea. Since this is your suggestion, please provide convincing, substantial evidence for the assertions implicit in your suggestion. The burden of proof in this regard is on you.

Do you even know of the research I'm suggesting that you examine? No, I won't cite it, I don't have the journals at my desk right now. You're the one taking the air of expertise here, you should already know these studies, shouldn't you? You are claiming expertise and arguing for policy changes, please provide the supporting evidence for your side of the debate, including both affirmative and negative arguments.

Once again, your statements carry an air of expertise, and contain a set of insinuations about the individuals that you are attempting to win an argument with (note that I did not say "debate with" for an obvious reason). Please, in the future, explain your authority to take on this air of expertise, as well as cataloging your implicit assumptions, justifying your unwarranted insinuations, and providing justification for said insinuations.

Until then, I see no reason to engage in further discussion. Your discussions consist of a parade of straw men, unsupported assertions, and quite insulting attempts to 'win the argument' instead of engaging in dialog. I see no reason to attempt a level dialog given the repeated conduct visible from your end.

[jj]

Adults don't generally get 3 months vacation in America. A well off worker with full employment might get 2 weeks.

Is there a reason that you bother to insinuate that I have suggested anything of the sort?

In the future, please limit your questions to arguments that I have made, and refrain from adding your straw men to the discussion.

[quixotecoyote]

Is there a reason that you bother to insinuate that I have suggested anything of the sort?


Because you did (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=6979946#post6979946). You talk about wanting a three month vacations for kids, and about extended vacations for adults, and that we shouldn't expect more of kids than adults.

If we gave kids 2 weeks of vacation a year, we wouldn't be expecting more of them than from adults. So either you meant to suggest that less than three months = expecting more than from adults, or your writing was that sloppy that you did anyway.

Next question?

[TragicMonkey]

Summer vacations serve more purposes for children than just not going to school. It's their chance to travel, see their grandparents, move house, and attend activities otherwise impossible due to the school schedule.

I was a Navy brat. We moved every other summer. Without a summer break, I'd have missed school and had to catch up with every move. The summers we didn't move, we spent travelling to visit my grandparents who lived on opposite sides of the country. I wouldn't have known them very much without summer breaks. I certainly wouldn't have been able to travel as much as I did. I'd been in every state east of Nebraska by the time I was twelve years old.

[ZirconBlue]

And, of course, if the kids' vactions are only 2 weeks long, then, in order to actually take a vacation with their kids, all the parents would have to take their vacation at the same time. Which is generally frowned upon by employers.

[Nihilianth]

*Sigh*

Let's go down memory lane here, shall we?

And I repeat, what do you think of MODERN (i.e. not the original) reasons for having a vacation? Why do you even raise the issue of "exist to begin with" when that was clearly not the context of my question? Furthermore, why do you insinuate ignorance in your deliberately offensive personal attack, when your insinuation can not possibly be based in anything I've said or asserted.

Heh, if you think that was such an "offensive personal attack," quite frankly, you must have some pretty thin skin. This was the question I had responded to:

So, you don't think this 3 month vacation has any reading or effect on the actual maturation process, and the teaching of a balanced (i.e. not so Japanese) life style that leads to people who are both productivce and happy?

And my answer:

Do you know the only reason why the three months of vacation exist to begin with? I believe my hint is somewhere in the post you quoted.

Since you couldn't find the hint anywhere in the thread, I'll help you here with post number 102:

I do think that a three month vacation from school every year is counter-productive. Kids go into "lazy mode" as they really have no reuirements to do anything but play, or sit around watching TV, or play video games all summer long. Unless they are in AYSO, or Little League or something. But that only takes up 3 or 4 days, two or three hours per day out of the whole week.

By the time school starts back up, we seem to waste the first whole month, trying to get back into "school mode." I know for myself as a teacher, it's probably going to be tough to get myself back as well.

Ans the only reason why there are three months of "vacation," is simply because back in the day, that was the planting and harvesting season, and families needed their kids to help out on the farm. That is not so much true anymore. lol.

Do note, you post number 106 was a direct quote from my post number 102! You only mentioned about the "farming" part, completely missing the entire rest of the post! If only you had read the three sentence paragraph above what you had quoted! Of course I am going to get indignant when someone expects me to repeat myself. Even after they quote the very post that already answered a question! Reading for comprehension much?

Although, to be fair, it wasn't at all a personal attack on my part. I had suggested that I already covered this aspect of that particular question. And it was only like 2 posts before hand, which you directly quoted! So nice try.

Not only that, but earlier in this very same thread, I had talked a bit at length about how much time we lose at the beginning and end of the school year. They say we have 180 days. Effectively, we have more like 150 if we are lucky.



Why are you trying to CHANGE THE SUBJECT and DECEIVE READERS as to the question that I asked? Is there some reason you won't answer the actual question that I asked?

In order to avoid any "deceit" I posted a nice little history just above that I was exactly on topic, and that you were asking a question that I had already covered. Your question of, once again: "So, you don't think this 3 month vacation has any reading or effect on the actual maturation process, and the teaching of a balanced (i.e. not so Japanese) life style that leads to people who are both productivce and happy?"

Which was, once again, already answered before hand in post number 102 and others by me previously in this thread. If you have any specific questions, rather than vague ones like th eone you had asked, I would will to be forthright.



Why do you expect a child to handle year-round "work" better than adults?

HUH!? What are you talking about? Who/where was this said? This is the worst case of straw I have ever seen.

You're the one who is suggesting, implicitly, that this is a good idea.

CLEARLY not. Prove I have said this, or retract that statement!

Since this is your suggestion, please provide convincing, substantial evidence for the assertions implicit in your suggestion. The burden of proof in this regard is on you.

Too bad I have never said anything about how children can handle "year-round work better than adults." You seem to be putting far too many words in my mouth. Nowhere, ever, did I say that children can handle year-round work better than adults. I think you seriously need to go back and reread the entire thread from start to finish in it's entirety.



Do you even know of the research I'm suggesting that you examine?

What research are you talking about? I see no sources in any of your posts about anything you have claimed. I honestly am completely confused by this statement, and your overbearing, and completely untrue accusations that have nothing to do with the conversation at hand.

No, I won't cite it, I don't have the journals at my desk right now.

Then how am I supposed to know WHAT research you are talking about?


You're the one taking the air of expertise here, you should already know these studies, shouldn't you?

What studies? Where did I ever take any position of having the "air of expertise?"

You are claiming expertise and arguing for policy changes, please provide the supporting evidence for your side of the debate, including both affirmative and negative arguments.

Policy changes? You mean with homework? Others in this thread are calling for policy changes in that regard, not I.

Summer vacations, I suppose is what you are talking about. Do note, once again, that I had said about three weeks of both summer and winter (two weeks for winter would probably be best,) and one each in spring and fall. I am FAR from the only one calling for this either. It's not like it would be such a MAJOR policy change, either. I have already given my reasons earlier in the thread, and which happens to reside within this post now.

If you want proof or evidence for some of my claims, I would be more than happy to oblige. But you have yet to ask any specific questions, or for any sources. You have only, thus far, made many, many untruthful accusations, placing words in my mouth that were never uttered, or even so much as suggested.



Once again, your statements carry an air of expertise, and contain a set of insinuations about the individuals that you are attempting to win an argument with (note that I did not say "debate with" for an obvious reason). Please, in the future, explain your authority to take on this air of expertise, as well as cataloging your implicit assumptions, justifying your unwarranted insinuations, and providing justification for said insinuations.

You need to be FAR more specific than this. What insinuations are you talking about? Certainly, if you are confused about any particular thing, perhaps asking a question about it would be more forthcoming than automatically making wild accusations. I have also already stated what, exactly, my job is.



Until then, I see no reason to engage in further discussion. Your discussions consist of a parade of straw men, unsupported assertions, and quite insulting attempts to 'win the argument' instead of engaging in dialog. I see no reason to attempt a level dialog given the repeated conduct visible from your end.

Oooookaaayyy, then? Sure thing, pal. But until you provide specifically what I have said was so wrong, or is unclear, you have completely failed in this discussion. You have failed to begin with, for writing this obnoxious post, without first trying to clear up what was said.

I think most people can read for themselves just what transpired here.

Anyway, good day to you sir! :)

[Nihilianth]

Summer vacations serve more purposes for children than just not going to school. It's their chance to travel, see their grandparents, move house, and attend activities otherwise impossible due to the school schedule.

I was a Navy brat. We moved every other summer. Without a summer break, I'd have missed school and had to catch up with every move. The summers we didn't move, we spent travelling to visit my grandparents who lived on opposite sides of the country. I wouldn't have known them very much without summer breaks. I certainly wouldn't have been able to travel as much as I did. I'd been in every state east of Nebraska by the time I was twelve years old.

Well, to be fair, that is certainly not a "normal" lifestyle for a kid growing up. It isn't exactly easy to make policy that reflects the lifestyle of every single person attending the school, I shouldn't think. ;)

[Nihilianth]

And, of course, if the kids' vactions are only 2 weeks long, then, in order to actually take a vacation with their kids, all the parents would have to take their vacation at the same time. Which is generally frowned upon by employers.

Taking a vacation during school hasn't stopped my parents from doing so. Of course, I did well enough throughout school to be able to take a week or two off from it. And my parents did a good job in making contact with the school to let them know we were going on vacation. They collected all the HW assignments before we left, were able to obtain the lesson plans and so forth. My parents would make us spend at least one hour per day working on school work while we were vacationing in Miami. Usually at night when we get back, or in the morning before getting around. I would come back a little behind, but the teacher would have us stay after class to explain some stuff to us real quick. Wasn't the end of the world.

And for sports, usually they would provide a tutor to travel around with with the team, when we would miss school. Our baseball team had a tutor at the beginning of the school year when we went to the Senior Little League World Series down in Florida. We had a tutor for ice hockey as well, when we made the playoffs.

[ZirconBlue]

Taking a vacation during school hasn't stopped my parents from doing so. Of course, I did well enough throughout school to be able to take a week or two off from it. And my parents did a good job in making contact with the school to let them know we were going on vacation. They collected all the HW assignments before we left, were able to obtain the lesson plans and so forth. My parents would make us spend at least one hour per day working on school work while we were vacationing in Miami. Usually at night when we get back, or in the morning before getting around. I would come back a little behind, but the teacher would have us stay after class to explain some stuff to us real quick. Wasn't the end of the world.

And for sports, usually they would provide a tutor to travel around with with the team, when we would miss school. Our baseball team had a tutor at the beginning of the school year when we went to the Senior Little League World Series down in Florida. We had a tutor for ice hockey as well, when we made the playoffs.


Yes, that sounds perfectly viable for every student in the school. :rolleyes:

[Nihilianth]

Yes, that sounds perfectly viable for every student in the school. :rolleyes:

Year-round schooling seems to work perfectly fine with Japan, China, Germany,...hell, basically all of Europe, and almost all industrialized nations. In fact, I can;t think of any industrialized countries that don't have year-round school. Except perhaps for Canada?

In any case, most families only take one vacation a year, if they take one at all. A year-round schedule doesn't mean kids will be suddenly going to school more often than adults go to work, as SOMEONE in this thread would have you believe. They would still get a good 6-10 weeks of vacation throughout the year. Probably just as much vacation as they currently do, if the education system decides to divide up the 180 day schedule more evenly. I personally think there should be closer to 200 days of school. So really, the "family vacation" argument is not that big a deal.

[Checkmite]

It seems that you think it is an all or nothing proposition: either do everything exactly as the teachers and schools prescribe, or home school. I disagree. I don't think I should have to sacrifice my child's public education opportunities simply because I disagree with the homogenous approach that they take with their students.

Kind of like saying "I don't think I should have to give up eating at McDonald's just because I don't like anything on their menu". By his own admission, DallasDad's criteria for how important, relevant, or necessary an assignment is, is how long it takes to complete. Stop acting like that's "participating in his child's education"; it's simply lack of consideration for his kid's learning speed. As the class slowly overtakes and passes his child up for no other reason than because he "drew a line" one too many times just before his kid would've finally grasped a crucial concept, he's going to complain that they're going too fast even if his kid's the only one having trouble.

In high school, homework is over 50% of your grade; they're not going to care about his lines, and his "No" comments will simply become zeros in the gradebook. Enough of which will become failed grade levels.

Oh yes, homeschooling is the only chance that guy has unless he wants his kids to simply fail...more than school. Imagine what will happen if the kids are given an assignment by an employer and decide to just stop working on it after an arbitrary time period.

[Nihilianth]

Kind of like saying "I don't think I should have to give up eating at McDonald's just because I don't like anything on their menu". By his own admission, DallasDad's criteria for how important, relevant, or necessary an assignment is, is how long it takes to complete. Stop acting like that's "participating in his child's education"; it's simply lack of consideration for his kid's learning speed. As the class slowly overtakes and passes his child up for no other reason than because he "drew a line" one too many times just before his kid would've finally grasped a crucial concept, he's going to complain that they're going too fast even if his kid's the only one having trouble.

In high school, homework is over 50% of your grade; they're not going to care about his lines, and his "No" comments will simply become zeros in the gradebook. Enough of which will become failed grade levels.

Oh yes, homeschooling is the only chance that guy has unless he wants his kids to simply fail...more than school. Imagine what will happen if the kids are given an assignment by an employer and decide to just stop working on it after an arbitrary time period.

Heh, forget about going to most colleges either. College professors are even less forgiving yet. And professional employers? Good luck even finding a prospect in landing a job. Employers are the least forgiving.

If you take on a project as a designer, let's say, and your client pays you, you fail to deliver on that product on the time specified on the contract that you were paid to deliver, it is easy to obtain a lawsuit against you. Maybe have a major loss of reputation at best. Pretty much, your ship is sunk in that field. I assume it is the same in most other professions as well.

[TragicMonkey]

Well, to be fair, that is certainly not a "normal" lifestyle for a kid growing up. It isn't exactly easy to make policy that reflects the lifestyle of every single person attending the school, I shouldn't think. ;)

And you follow that with a post about how your parents took you out of school to go on vacation? Wow. If I were the school admin I'd have flunked you and set in motion state machinery to deal with truancy and contributing to the deliquency of minors. What kind of value is that placing on education, that you just drop it in order to go on vacation? No wonder you're willing to do away with summer break--you're willing to take a break whenever you feel like! It's easy to argue to change the status quo when you don't abide by it yourself!

[Nihilianth]

And you follow that with a post about how your parents took you out of school to go on vacation? Wow. If I were the school admin I'd have flunked you and set in motion state machinery to deal with truancy and contributing to the deliquency of minors. What kind of value is that placing on education, that you just drop it in order to go on vacation? No wonder you're willing to do away with summer break--you're willing to take a break whenever you feel like! It's easy to argue to change the status quo when you don't abide by it yourself!

HUH!? *facepalm* Dunno where to even begin.....:(

[Dorian Gray]

HUH!? *facepalm* Dunno where to even begin.....:(Should have done your homework.

[Nihilianth]

Should have done your homework.

Apparently so, if there are people around like TragicMonkey would criminalize parents for wanting to go on vacation during the school year for a week or two. :rolleyes:

Sorry about that snipe. Had to do it. :D

[TragicMonkey]

Apparently so, if there are people around like TragicMonkey would criminalize parents for wanting to go on vacation during the school year for a week or two. :rolleyes:

Yes, I would. It's a disgusting message to send the kids, that education is not important and vacation takes priority. If your parents were that cavalier about your education that they wanted to alter the times to suit themselves they should have home-schooled you instead.

[Nihilianth]

Yes, I would. It's a disgusting message to send the kids, that education is not important and vacation takes priority. If your parents were that cavalier about your education that they wanted to alter the times to suit themselves they should have home-schooled you instead.

"Disgusting?" Jees, man! It was just a vacation! It's not like my parents didn't tell the school, and get homework assignments from the teachers!

I mean, my gawd. You make it sound like it was such a major criminal offense. I turned out perfectly fine. All my siblings turned out perfectly fine. As did all of my cousins.

Seriously, no offense, but frankly I think you need to get over yourself. I am guess you are against circumcision and spankings as well. I also assume that you probably think that one video where a victim of a bully picked up the bully and threw him down was somehow going to kill the kid and was way too far over the top.

Now, seriously. Kids are not so delicate that parents can;t just live a normal life with them. In fact, kids are much stronger and smarter than you give them credit for. They are able to fall out of trees, fall of bicycles, get hit with baseballs....do all sorts of things kids to, and not get any real serious injury. You can yank them out of school for a week at a time to go on vacation, and not completely destroy their education and their future.

Kids can also go to schooll year-round without any adverse effects. In fact, studies have shown that year-round school is far more beneficial. In fact, once again, the ONLY REASON why schooling is not year-round, is simply because it is now just tradition from the days when 90% of American families were struggling farmer, and they needed their kids home between the planting and harvesting seasons. This is now 2011, and we are seriously falling far behind other countries, in part, due to an archaic schedule system.

Year-round schooling is also a misconception. It's not like they are going to school 24/7, 365. They'll still be in school for the same number of days as they currently are. They just get more breaks that are shorter. In fact, I would even call to extend the number of days from 180 to 200. 20 extra days a year is not a big deal either. It gives teachers more time to cover the same subject areas, the extra number of breaks gives teachers and administrators more time to schedule meetings without cutting into the regular schedule. It gives more sports (like basketball, and hockey) an opportunity to hold a tournament without kids having to skip a week of classes. You don't lose the first 2 to three weeks of the beginning of the school year trying to adjust after three whole months of doing nothing over the summer, effectively adding 14-21 more days to effective teaching. Likewise, you don't lose the last two weeks of the school year, because the students fall apart, and your curriculum is coming to an end, effectively adding another 14 days of effective teaching to the schedule. Plus, tacking on u to 20 more days to the overall schedule just adds another 20 days, making school less accelerated, able to cover subject material more thoroughly. Or be able to advance to bigger better things faster.

Anyway, I am finished ranting.

[TragicMonkey]

"Disgusting?" Jees, man! It was just a vacation! It's not like my parents didn't tell the school, and get homework assignments from the teachers!

So homework = class instruction? A good substitute for attending? You have the strangest notions of the value of homework. Homework is busywork. Its point is completing it, to get it done. It is not the same as learning, and not even the same as being taught. If you can blow off school but it doesn't matter because you did the homework, why not just get the homework assignments for the whole year, do them, and never attend class?

I mean, my gawd. You make it sound like it was such a major criminal offense.

No, truancy is a minor criminal offense.

I turned out perfectly fine. All my siblings turned out perfectly fine. As did all of my cousins.

That's a matter of debate. Your entire extended family shared your values of vacation over schooling?

Seriously, no offense, but frankly I think you need to get over yourself. I am guess you are against circumcision and spankings as well. I also assume that you probably think that one video where a victim of a bully picked up the bully and threw him down was somehow going to kill the kid and was way too far over the top.

Your lack of educational focus has obviously led to a deficiency in cognitive power if you believe you can draw wild conclusions about my stances on other topics based on my responses to this one. You "are guess" wrong on all those counts.

Now, seriously. Kids are not so delicate that parents can;t just live a normal life with them. In fact, kids are much stronger and smarter than you give them credit for. They are able to fall out of trees, fall of bicycles, get hit with baseballs....do all sorts of things kids to, and not get any real serious injury. You can yank them out of school for a week at a time to go on vacation, and not completely destroy their education and their future.

Again, drawing conclusions that don't follow from evidence. You know nothing of what I think of kids. I'm not saying the kids were wrong for cutting school in that fashion. I'm saying your parents were bad parents, is all, at least in the matter of education.


Kids can also go to schooll year-round without any adverse effects. In fact, studies have shown that year-round school is far more beneficial. In fact, once again, the ONLY REASON why schooling is not year-round, is simply because it is now just tradition from the days when 90% of American families were struggling farmer, and they needed their kids home between the planting and harvesting seasons. This is now 2011, and we are seriously falling far behind other countries, in part, due to an archaic schedule system.

Summer break isn't just about farmwork. If you lived in a tourism-heavy area you'd know this. The school year in my area starts significantly later than many other places precisely because it's a beach resort area, and teenaged employees are necessary to the economy during the late summer months.

[Dorian Gray]

Apparently so, if there are people around like TragicMonkey would criminalize parents for wanting to go on vacation during the school year for a week or two. :rolleyes:

Sorry about that snipe. Had to do it. :DIt's called a calendar. In the US, there are at least 4 months of possible vacation time when the kids are out of school. Parents who put their own need to slack above their kids' need to learn are huge ****** idiots.

[Dorian Gray]

"Disgusting?" Jees, man! It was just a vacation! It's not like my parents didn't tell the school, and get homework assignments from the teachers!

I mean, my gawd. You make it sound like it was such a major criminal offense. I turned out perfectly fine. All my siblings turned out perfectly fine. As did all of my cousins.

Seriously, no offense, but frankly I think you need to get over yourself. I am guess you are against circumcision and spankings as well. I also assume that you probably think that one video where a victim of a bully picked up the bully and threw him down was somehow going to kill the kid and was way too far over the top.

Now, seriously. Kids are not so delicate that parents can;t just live a normal life with them. In fact, kids are much stronger and smarter than you give them credit for. They are able to fall out of trees, fall of bicycles, get hit with baseballs....do all sorts of things kids to, and not get any real serious injury. You can yank them out of school for a week at a time to go on vacation, and not completely destroy their education and their future.

Kids can also go to schooll year-round without any adverse effects. In fact, studies have shown that year-round school is far more beneficial. In fact, once again, the ONLY REASON why schooling is not year-round, is simply because it is now just tradition from the days when 90% of American families were struggling farmer, and they needed their kids home between the planting and harvesting seasons. This is now 2011, and we are seriously falling far behind other countries, in part, due to an archaic schedule system.

Year-round schooling is also a misconception. It's not like they are going to school 24/7, 365. They'll still be in school for the same number of days as they currently are. They just get more breaks that are shorter. In fact, I would even call to extend the number of days from 180 to 200. 20 extra days a year is not a big deal either. It gives teachers more time to cover the same subject areas, the extra number of breaks gives teachers and administrators more time to schedule meetings without cutting into the regular schedule. It gives more sports (like basketball, and hockey) an opportunity to hold a tournament without kids having to skip a week of classes. You don't lose the first 2 to three weeks of the beginning of the school year trying to adjust after three whole months of doing nothing over the summer, effectively adding 14-21 more days to effective teaching. Likewise, you don't lose the last two weeks of the school year, because the students fall apart, and your curriculum is coming to an end, effectively adding another 14 days of effective teaching to the schedule. Plus, tacking on u to 20 more days to the overall schedule just adds another 20 days, making school less accelerated, able to cover subject material more thoroughly. Or be able to advance to bigger better things faster.

Anyway, I am finished ranting. I hope you're finished failing. You sure took a long time to say you are selfish. American students have had the same summer vacation format for centuries, yet it is only recently that we have been falling behind. Obviously it's not the format that is the problem.

[Nihilianth]

So homework = class instruction? A good substitute for attending?

Did I say that?

You have the strangest notions of the value of homework. Homework is busywork. Its point is completing it, to get it done. It is not the same as learning, and not even the same as being taught. If you can blow off school but it doesn't matter because you did the homework, why not just get the homework assignments for the whole year, do them, and never attend class?

Apparently you have no idea the purpose homework serves in educating a child. I am not going through this conversation again.



No, truancy is a minor criminal offense.

My parents NOTIFIED the friggin school! They had it set up! It is not truancy.



That's a matter of debate. Your entire extended family shared your values of vacation over schooling?

Did I say anything to that effect?



Your lack of educational focus has obviously led to a deficiency in cognitive power if you believe you can draw wild conclusions about my stances on other topics based on my responses to this one. You "are guess" wrong on all those counts.

phew! I'm glad of that. I thought that, because it seemed like something someone with those positions would take when it comes to a family taking a vacation during the school year.



Again, drawing conclusions that don't follow from evidence. You know nothing of what I think of kids. I'm not saying the kids were wrong for cutting school in that fashion. I'm saying your parents were bad parents, is all, at least in the matter of education.[quote]

HAH! You don;t even know me! You don;t even know my parents! And yet, you can come to the conclusion that my parents are bad parents for taking a one week vacation during the school year once?



[quote]Summer break isn't just about farmwork. If you lived in a tourism-heavy area you'd know this. The school year in my area starts significantly later than many other places precisely because it's a beach resort area, and teenaged employees are necessary to the economy during the late summer months.

So, you think the economy is a good excuse to not have kids go to school? And you think that taking a one-week private family vacation is bad! I have never heard of this as an excuse for a three month-long summer vacation. Typically, the only excuse I have ever heard for having three months off during the summer was for agriculture, and because school buildings lacked any sort of air conditioning, while trying to stuff 30+ people into one room.

None of those criteria match today's conditions, in which only 3% of Americans are involved in agriculture. And those three percent use heavy machinery that allows one person to do the job of a huge family. School buildings now have decent cooling systems as well.

If it were true about tourist areas, could care less about those areas that employ teenagers, make the claim that it is the base of their economy in the late weeks of summer. What I do care about, is that Europe, Asia, and South America are all overtaking the USA in education. A three month-long summer vacation is extremely rare around the world. As far as I know, the USA is the only industrialized nation that has such an obnoxiously long vacation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Summer_learning_loss

It is shown, quite strongly and with many different studies, that there is a MAJOR deleterious effect on three months of vacation. Wiki cites 2+ months of equivalency loss. I had estimated half a month, up to one month. It appears I underestimated this by more than twice as much! This actually makes complete sense. Even Major League Baseball players do not get nearly that much time off. A team that makes it to the World Series, is lucky to 6 weeks off. And even then, baseball players continue with their conditioning and tee practice in order to stay up to form. And they still come back in February and March with a ton of rust.

Football players only get about 6 weeks off as well, if they are lucky. And for the very same reason. No way can you just take three whole months off, without having equivalency loss.

And you still have to worry about trying to get students off a three month vacation schedule, and get back into school mode. That was the 2-4 weeks I anticipated that was lost. It appears that the 180 days of the school year is effectively down to 90 to 100. So you can probably add another half a month to a whole month onto the 2 months of knowledge that was lost. We are talking up to three months, maybe four months lost for teachers to try to progress their class to the next level. And that takes us right up to the biggest break of the winter: The holidays.

We are left with 5 months to work with. Little over half of what we are given. and for some reason, this country seems to want to stubbornly hold onto such an antiquated system.

[Nihilianth]

It's called a calendar. In the US, there are at least 4 months of possible vacation time when the kids are out of school. Parents who put their own need to slack above their kids' need to learn are huge ****** idiots.

People who criticize parents for not knowing either the parents, the kids, or the situations are even bigger *********** idiots.

Any other strawmen or derailments?

[Nihilianth]

I hope you're finished failing. You sure took a long time to say you are selfish. American students have had the same summer vacation format for centuries, yet it is only recently that we have been falling behind. Obviously it's not the format that is the problem.

For centuries? Uh, ok. Sure, if you can call about 160 years "centuries."

Do you want to compare the US school system with other countries throughout those years to find out exactly why we ended up so far ahead by mid-20th century, and are now falling behind the rest of the world over the decades since?

And yes, the format does have a huge influence on the reason why we are falling behind. Care to cite any sources which say to the contrary?

[DallasDad]

Nihilianth,

I'm glad I decided to stay out of this conversation for a while. You make my case for me all too well.

Forgive me, but I suspect by your writing style that you are a young person. You are far too defensive of the current system; your arguments are neither reasoned or rational. You don't read what others write, grasp the point, and present a counter argument--instead, you reply to snippets with either sarcasm or screeds. You appeal to the crafters of modern curricula as if you don't realize that outside the hallowed halls of academia, the work of professional educators is not highly regarded.

You are, in short, a brave example of the system you espouse. I suspect that your positions will mellow once you have more experience with the system, and with life in general.

In the meantime, please do go on. I feel confident that anyone who has read my posts will also be able to interpret yours accurately.

[Pythonic]

I have to do his homework for him because he's too stupid to do it himself.

[Nihilianth]

Nihilianth,

I'm glad I decided to stay out of this conversation for a while. You make my case for me all too well.

Forgive me, but I suspect by your writing style that you are a young person. You are far too defensive of the current system; your arguments are neither reasoned or rational. You don't read what others write, grasp the point, and present a counter argument--instead, you reply to snippets with either sarcasm or screeds. You appeal to the crafters of modern curricula as if you don't realize that outside the hallowed halls of academia, the work of professional educators is not highly regarded.

You are, in short, a brave example of the system you espouse. I suspect that your positions will mellow once you have more experience with the system, and with life in general.

In the meantime, please do go on. I feel confident that anyone who has read my posts will also be able to interpret yours accurately.

Perhaps my age is a function of how head-strong I am. However, when people push me, I tend to push back. If my posts are coming off with sarcasm, perhaps that is a function of recieving sarcastic responses.

If you go back to post number 81 at least, I think you will see how my posting and response styles differ compared to different people, depending on whether they treat me with respect or contempt. I think the one named "JJ" is the worst offender in this thread.

Now to address your main point:

You said I am being "too defensive" of the current system? I hardly think so. It all depends on what part of the system you are talking about. We did get off-topic talking about vacations and schedules, when the OP was talking about HW. And for that, I apologize for being a part of the derailment. Certainly, I am not at all defensive about those aspects of the system.

However, when it comes to HW, I am defending this.

I am confused about one particular line, which I will re-quote below:

You appeal to the crafters of modern curricula as if you don't realize that outside the hallowed halls of academia, the work of professional educators is not highly regarded.

I am not sure what you mean by this. Do you mean the parents don't hold professional educators with high regard? That, I can certainly attest to! Teachers and administrators are always "wrong," and that we "don't know what we are talking about."

Or do you mean this in regards to how other professionals view educators? In this regard, you are correct. I have no idea how other professionals from other fields view those in the education profession.

However, I think that point has little to do with the evidence that supports a shorter summer vacation, and the merits of properly-administered homework.

[arthwollipot]

Honestly, I'm with Nihilanth on this. I don't think that strict discipline is always the best way with all kids. But if I'm going to be honest, I also have to say that I have nothing by my own anecdotal evidence (myself and my kids) to base this on.

Has this been studied at all? Has anyone published in a peer-reviewed journal of education about the long-term difference between kids brought up under a strict educational regime versus kids brought up under a looser, more liberal scheme?

Given that I was educated under a very loose and liberal system, I'd be interested to know the conclusions of such a study.

[Nihilianth]

Honestly, I'm with Nihilanth on this. I don't think that strict discipline is always the best way with all kids. But if I'm going to be honest, I also have to say that I have nothing by my own anecdotal evidence (myself and my kids) to base this on.

Has this been studied at all? Has anyone published in a peer-reviewed journal of education about the long-term difference between kids brought up under a strict educational regime versus kids brought up under a looser, more liberal scheme?

Given that I was educated under a very loose and liberal system, I'd be interested to know the conclusions of such a study.

I have read a few studies on the merits of HW while in college. Unfortunately, I no longer have access to the university database of journals. It was called "EBSCOT," or "EDSCU" or something like that. The database system, I mean.

But I can go back to my alma mater, and ask around to see if I can gain access to the database for a very specific piece of research. It'll have to be next week, as they are bringing in another student-teacher, and I have another week off.

A bit off-topic, but I don;t think this is fair, what they are doing to the kids in my class. Two different student-teachers over the course of three weeks, with me in the classroom for one week in between. A month of changes with three different people are teaching those kids. Especially ones who are inexperienced. :boggled:

[Meadmaker]

And you follow that with a post about how your parents took you out of school to go on vacation? Wow. If I were the school admin I'd have flunked you and set in motion state machinery to deal with truancy and contributing to the deliquency of minors.

That's kind of harsh if you ask me. My parents took me out of high school for a two week vacation once. Not only did they not flunk me, they let me retain my status as valedictorian.

[Dorian Gray]

For centuries? Uh, ok. Sure, if you can call about 160 years "centuries."

Do you want to compare the US school system with other countries throughout those years to find out exactly why we ended up so far ahead by mid-20th century, and are now falling behind the rest of the world over the decades since?

And yes, the format does have a huge influence on the reason why we are falling behind. Care to cite any sources which say to the contrary?
The problem is that a child's failure used to be the fault of the child. Now it's the fault of everything and everyone but the child. For example, you think it's the fault of the system - the same system that worked just fine for many years. Sure, it came from an agricultural society, but so much of our, and so many other, economies are based on summer vacation that it would cost too much money for both those economies, and the schools themselves, that it's not worth it.

Another consideration is the No Child Left Behind deal, which teaches to a test, and has little to do with college preparation or the educational and employment needs and trends of the country.

On the other hand, if children were once again held responsible for their own performances, instead of a whole host of other scapegoats, hey, maybe the children would learn how to THINK.

[Meadmaker]

I've read this with interest, because the title caught my eye. The topic fascinates me because it reflects some of my own experience. (My kid goes to private school, not public school, if that matters.)

It hasn't happened a lot this year (sixth grade) but in first through fourth grade, I was constantly feeling like his mother and I were getting homework assignments. He was getting assigned things he could not possibly complete. My favorite example was an assignment he had in third grade. For Black History Month they all had to pick the name of a famous negro out of a hat and do a report. He drew Langston Hughes. There was no way he could possibly read any article about Langston Hughes and figure out what was significant. I had to do it. There were a couple of other less blatant examples along the same lines, where students had to do a "report", which at that age was four or five sentences, which required them to read something 2-3 pages long and pick out the most significant parts. They simply didn't have the experience.

As for homework, DallasDad would find my son's teachers much more to his liking. His school is known for assigning much more homework than is typical for kids of that age, but the teachers all advised putting a time limit on it. They said if it was taking more than an hour in any given evening to do it, either there was too much of it, or the student obviously hadn't mastered the material well enough to do it, and there was no point forcing the issue. We followed those guidelines unless our son was obviously goofing off when he should have been doing homework.

It was always a struggle to decide how much "help" to give the kid on assignments that were obviously above his level. This especially applied to "art project" assignments, a pet peeve of mine in the first place. By "art project" assignments, I mean ones where the result is a poster, or model, or diorama. Again, doing a good job on those assignments was often beyond the skill level of the kids. On those occasions when he had such assignments and I saw the work of other kids in the classrooms, it was clear that the parents had done a lot of the work,

My biggest complaint about school now is that they are obviously trying to teach kids to be little employees. This shows up in an awful lot of "group projects". I'm fairly convinced that people would say that these are important because it will be so important in the workplace. It's true that it will be, but I don't know if anyone has noticed that there are almost zero twelve year olds at their office. Why is that? The kids simply lack the development necessary to have the kind of leadership or teamwork skills necessary to divide up labor and work cooperatively on tasks. The consequence has been that my son has described many group projects that consisted of a group of boys sitting around each one saying "I think it should be my way" until they realize it's too late, they have used up most of their time, and they scramble to throw together something that marginally meets the requirements.

[Nihilianth]

That's kind of harsh if you ask me. My parents took me out of high school for a two week vacation once. Not only did they not flunk me, they let me retain my status as valedictorian.

Man, it's all good. That's coming from a guy who apparently thinks it's ok to poison kids, and threaten to not given them the antidote unless they do their homework. lol.

[Nihilianth]

The problem is that a child's failure used to be the fault of the child. Now it's the fault of everything and everyone but the child. For example, you think it's the fault of the system - the same system that worked just fine for many years. Sure, it came from an agricultural society, but so much of our, and so many other, economies are based on summer vacation that it would cost too much money for both those economies, and the schools themselves, that it's not worth it.

Another consideration is the No Child Left Behind deal, which teaches to a test, and has little to do with college preparation or the educational and employment needs and trends of the country.

On the other hand, if children were once again held responsible for their own performances, instead of a whole host of other scapegoats, hey, maybe the children would learn how to THINK.

I absolutely agree with this post 100%! You wouldn't believe some of the kids who were coming into my college just before I graduated who had excuses for EVERYTHING under the sun of why they didn't get something done. One of my professors from one of my 101 classes (had him in several other classes as well) was talking to me about the "privileged" mentality of these newer kids. More kids flunked out of that 101 class in that semester, than he had in the past 5 years combined! He was told by the administration that he should accept some of the excuses to allow at least some of the students to pass. He absolutely refused. He said they didn't do their work, there is no excuse. They had more than enough time.

Only one kid actually had a real excuse for not turning in two assignments. His mother was in a car accident, but the kid STILL managed to have the assignments complete the day he came back, and handed them both in, and started immediately on the next one, and handed that one in the next day as well. Can you guess where that kid was from?

[Nihilianth]

I've read this with interest, because the title caught my eye. The topic fascinates me because it reflects some of my own experience. (My kid goes to private school, not public school, if that matters.)

It hasn't happened a lot this year (sixth grade) but in first through fourth grade, I was constantly feeling like his mother and I were getting homework assignments. He was getting assigned things he could not possibly complete. My favorite example was an assignment he had in third grade. For Black History Month they all had to pick the name of a famous negro out of a hat and do a report. He drew Langston Hughes. There was no way he could possibly read any article about Langston Hughes and figure out what was significant. I had to do it. There were a couple of other less blatant examples along the same lines, where students had to do a "report", which at that age was four or five sentences, which required them to read something 2-3 pages long and pick out the most significant parts. They simply didn't have the experience.

One of my biggest themes throughout this thread, has been that students should be challenged. Third grade is the exact level where kids need to be picking out the important parts in a given passage. It's only 2-3 pages long. Is it hard for them? Yes, but so what? Is it above their level? Well, not really. Not for third grade, unless the school is doing a poor job in preparing the kids in second grade for reading comprehension. My second graders can do easily write 3-4 sentences. Most can go above and beyond the assignment, and can read a book, and write what it was about in 4-6 sentences. The sentences are very simplistic, of course. But I require that they use at least 1 or 2 of our spelling words as well.

As for homework, DallasDad would find my son's teachers much more to his liking. His school is known for assigning much more homework than is typical for kids of that age, but the teachers all advised putting a time limit on it. They said if it was taking more than an hour in any given evening to do it, either there was too much of it, or the student obviously hadn't mastered the material well enough to do it, and there was no point forcing the issue. We followed those guidelines unless our son was obviously goofing off when he should have been doing homework.

The teachers probably had good reason to advise this. It probably had to do with the amount of homework they were assigning, making it less difficult in order to allow the child to absorb the material better. In which case, should be advised to have the child work in about five 20 minute blocks of time, never going more than an hour.

I can't, for the life of me, remember the technique they are using that is specific to the curriculum. It is one of the curriculums I found most interesting, which is why I mentioned 20 minute time periods for homework as a solution for DallasDad, rather than just drawing a line and telling the kid not to finish it at all.

It was always a struggle to decide how much "help" to give the kid on assignments that were obviously above his level. This especially applied to "art project" assignments, a pet peeve of mine in the first place. By "art project" assignments, I mean ones where the result is a poster, or model, or diorama. Again, doing a good job on those assignments was often beyond the skill level of the kids. On those occasions when he had such assignments and I saw the work of other kids in the classrooms, it was clear that the parents had done a lot of the work,

First, how much "help." It is fine that parents help their children with any homework assignment right from the beginning. This gives them a structured way to complete any assignment, and they learn a certain routine or rythm after a while. I tell parents all the time to, "by all means help your kid! But don;t do it for them!" It is fine to give them guidance, and maybe help them to sound out words for the youngins in second or lower. For third graders, parents should begin to take a more hands-off approach, but isn't completely necessary. By that time, kids should be able to figure out how to pronounce words on their own if it is a harder one. They should be able to write complete sentences, and should be able to read entire books, and comprehend what was happening.

As for art assignments, I see no reason to worry about this whatsoever! I am sure the teachers went over what a diarama was. No need to jump in here and help the kids at all! In fact, I think that would be incredibly counter-productive. Allow the child to explore his own solutions. It sure as hell opens them up to better creativity. They are third graders, so the teacher isn't exactly going to give them a terrible grade if they did what they were supposed to do, though you may think it looks like crap. I tell my kids when they are doing art projects, that it looks great! (Even though it looks like complete crap! :D ) But they're second graders. I will almost always show them a different solution for their art pieces.

My biggest complaint about school now is that they are obviously trying to teach kids to be little employees. This shows up in an awful lot of "group projects". I'm fairly convinced that people would say that these are important because it will be so important in the workplace. It's true that it will be, but I don't know if anyone has noticed that there are almost zero twelve year olds at their office. Why is that? The kids simply lack the development necessary to have the kind of leadership or teamwork skills necessary to divide up labor and work cooperatively on tasks. The consequence has been that my son has described many group projects that consisted of a group of boys sitting around each one saying "I think it should be my way" until they realize it's too late, they have used up most of their time, and they scramble to throw together something that marginally meets the requirements.

Well, the bolded is EXACTLY why we have them working on group projects! Because they are not trained or "developed" enough. Whatever that means. Kids most certainly have the ability to learn this pretty quickly and early. In fact, we start teaching them at the age of 6, which is when kids begin to play organized sports for the first time.

[TragicMonkey]

That's kind of harsh if you ask me. My parents took me out of high school for a two week vacation once. Not only did they not flunk me, they let me retain my status as valedictorian.

You'd have lost your status simply by being absent if you'd gone to my school, because the next candidate would have advanced her GPA past yours by completing more work while you were gone. Competition was rather tight at my school. Our valedictorian determination actually went to court because the second-in-line's parents sued over the question of when the determination was made. It was calculated after the first semester of the senior year, but if it had been done at the end of the year he'd have beaten her by 0.005 points due to the microscopic grade-weighting in the calculations for AP classes. They both only got straight A's, of course, and took all the AP classes they could, but he'd gotten one more half-credit course than she did.

I never made it past 11th because a 3.99 GPA with only five college level courses simply didn't cut it there. I did get to skip a year of college, though.

[TragicMonkey]

Man, it's all good. That's coming from a guy who apparently thinks it's ok to poison kids, and threaten to not given them the antidote unless they do their homework. lol.

That's a terrible slur. I never said to withhold the antidote for not doing homework. I regard homework as pointless busywork. I suggested withholding the antidote for doing badly on tests, which are a far better measure of what the child is failing to learn.

[mikeyx]

Congratulations, you're part of the problem. Please please stop doing what you're doing. Thank you.

what they said

[mikeyx]

What are you on about? Please specify the problem to which you refer, and tell me how I'm part of it.

not making your coddled brat learn how to do stuff for tehmselves, the fact you even have to ask...

[mikeyx]

I graduated high school having never done homework ever for the most part. I remember studying to learn all 50 states for an hour with my mother in 4th grade, and then memorizing the rivers in my state in high school, but for the most part I just didn't do it. I also was a chronic absentee for various reasons and missed several days a week regularly from third grade to 7th. For elementary school I just floated by on being intelligent and lucid when communicating with my teachers, and by making above average test scores, when I did them. My teachers just liked me and reluctantly tolerated my terrible habits I suppose.

In high school I discovered one could actually leave school and ditch classes, and this didn't float. The administration told any student that did this sort of thing to drop out, and I ended up dropping out my freshman year. After three years of doing my own thing, I got a sense of urgency about it all, and went back to school as an 18 year old freshmen. I managed to demonstrate I was serious about it, and I was able to get enrolled in the alternative school after spending about 6 months in standard classes.
In the special program I made up three years in a year and a quarter working at my own pace.

I still never really did home work, managing to avoid it in some way or another.

I did it in study hall, but I did it, by myself, and didn't turn into an obesem twinky munching, sponge bob watching waste...

Take
the
hint

[mikeyx]

There are several things wrong here...

First, you are telling your kids they don't have to finish a task if they don't feel like it. All they need do is goof off a bit and you will draw a line on the paper--the teacher is always wrong. You are also teaching them not to worry about the consequenses of not finishing an assignment as you will go around the teacher to the principal.

It's part of the entitlement generation. I think you should consider home schooling.

glenn

yes it is. very well put.
The bad news is, you're not entitled, and the rest of us owe you squat.

[mikeyx]

Sorry, I agree with DallasDad. He isn't telling his kids they can goof off whenever they want- HE is making the determination of when homework is necessary or appropriate. He is also not saying they can blow off whatever they want. Again, HE is deciding that issue.

He is another example of crap parenting and part of the problem, and apparently so are you. Spade called spade.

I don't think the children are "entitled" if they are following their parent's rules. Neither is he entitled for simply not acquiescing to the authorities cookie cutter approach to education.

He is making it okay to goof off, not the same thing.

He is taking an active role in his children's educations, he is communicating with teachers and administrators, and he is taking it upon himself to teach them some things at home. How is this a bad thing?

When they turn to be whiney, entitled brats you'll see.

I don't think I should have to sacrifice my child's public education opportunities simply because I disagree with the homogenous approach that they take with their students.

Says Johnny entitlement, thanks for ruining America, or whatever crapass country you live in.

[mikeyx]

I don't see how "not doing homework" provides some sort of benefit overall. Homework should be a reasonable part of education and must be taylored to fit the students' age. When listening to a lecture, only about 10-20% of what you hear is remembered. Homework is the performance part and a student will learn 90% of what is performed.

glenn

It's called discipline and the entitled yuppy tribe doesn't have it.

[mikeyx]

[QUOTE=fuelair;6920509] Personally. I am beginning to not give a crap if students choose to fail/their parents choose it for them. In Florida, the system has just gone from annoyingly difficult for the average student to really difficult for the average student - and impossible if they are not pushing or being pushed hard all the way through. We are watching kids who were making low Bs and Cs a month or two ago now making Fs due to a testing change (state required) essentially in early Feb. (look up Webb's Depth of Knowledge and think moving from 1,2 to almost entirely 3,5 - with no lower grades preparation. Then think about the lower grades heading the same way. Then tell me about your problem with homework for your child (or better, get with your legislator and tell him). [quote]

Waaaaaaah............ If your kids hadn't been previously coddled they would have the discipline to keep up, so again thanks for wanting to set the bar low for the future generation. Are you proud of yourself?

[mikeyx]

I'd rather parents do kids homework than the "Tiger Mom" approach. My daughter teaches kids in first year primary school and she has to fend off (mainly Asian) parents who demand more and more homework. There are other threads about childhood obesity. Let the kids get outside and play.

wrong, every child should be in military school until 18. no exceptions.

[mikeyx]

Why is that controversial?

Because it makes your kids unproductive couch potatoes who will never contribute to society, are you proud of yourself?

[mikeyx]

I hold two master's degrees and a PhD. None of my degrees has anything to do with any work I've ever had, so few people in my everyday life know or care.

That reveals it all, you're a product of Academia and never had to work in the real world.

[ZirconBlue]

wrong, every child should be in military school until 18. no exceptions.


Congratulations! That's the dumbest thing I've read all day.

[mikeyx]

:jaw-dropp

Congratulations! That's the dumbest thing I've read all day.

congrats yourself! YHBT, as if it wasn't obvious.

[ZirconBlue]

YHBT, as if it wasn't obvious.


Good job, then, I guess. You certainly were a convincing crackpot.

[DallasDad]

Try not to be so good at trolling. I'd written you off as a nutter. Do you have anything of substance to contribute to the conversation?

[mikeyx]

Try not to be so good at trolling. I'd written you off as a nutter. Do you have anything of substance to contribute to the conversation?

was there any particular incident that made you feel you had the power/right/inclination/applicable term of your choice to use the parts of public school ciriculum and ignoring the rest?

Doesnt that effect junior's grades?

Wouldnt home scholing be more effective?

[quixotecoyote]

was there any particular incident that made you feel you had the power/right/inclination/applicable term of your choice to use the parts of public school ciriculum and ignoring the rest?

Doesnt that effect junior's grades?

Wouldnt home scholing be more effective?

Troll him once with a ridiculous post, shame on you.

Troll him twice...

[Dorian Gray]

I absolutely agree with this post 100%! You wouldn't believe some of the kids who were coming into my college just before I graduated who had excuses for EVERYTHING under the sun of why they didn't get something done. One of my professors from one of my 101 classes (had him in several other classes as well) was talking to me about the "privileged" mentality of these newer kids. More kids flunked out of that 101 class in that semester, than he had in the past 5 years combined! He was told by the administration that he should accept some of the excuses to allow at least some of the students to pass. He absolutely refused. He said they didn't do their work, there is no excuse. They had more than enough time.

Only one kid actually had a real excuse for not turning in two assignments. His mother was in a car accident, but the kid STILL managed to have the assignments complete the day he came back, and handed them both in, and started immediately on the next one, and handed that one in the next day as well. Can you guess where that kid was from?I don't see how you can reconcile agreeing with my post 100% with your blaming the summer vacation model of school for students falling behind the other countries. You seem to be doing what I am talking about - blaming something other than the kids.

[Meadmaker]

One of my biggest themes throughout this thread, has been that students should be challenged. Third grade is the exact level where kids need to be picking out the important parts in a given passage. It's only 2-3 pages long. Is it hard for them? Yes, but so what?


Doesn't the subject of the article play a role? What if they had assigned quantum mechanics or relativity? How about supply side economics? Of course that would be ridiculous. Do you know anything about Langston Hughes and his poetry? It's impossible for a 3rd grader to understand the significance of his poetry because they don't have the life experience.

Although it was tempting to suggest to him that he ask his teacher what "homoerotic" meant.




I tell my kids when they are doing art projects, that it looks great!

So, you give them an assignment, and no matter what they do, you tell them it's great?

My big objection to all of this is that these "art projects" are actually science or social studies assignments, but there is precious little science or social studies involved, but rather some sort of "creative use of materials" (part of his grade for building the musk ox in science class) or some sort of "presentation skills". Meanwhile, the kid can't find France on a map. That is something he's fully capable of learning, but they haven't bothered teaching it to him.


Well, the bolded is EXACTLY why we have them working on group projects!

Would you teach algebra in the third grade? Calculus in fifth? How about the laws of motion, in numeric form in the fourth grade? Perhaps the theory of Communism in fifth grade social studies?

Of course you wouldn't. Their brains haven't reached that point where they can comprehend that stuff.

Likewise their maturity level within their social interactions isn't at a level where they can effectively work on the sort of team projects that they are asked to work on. Kids don't do that sort of thing very well, and the efforts to push it are largely wasted. It ends up being an utter waste of time when they could be learning to find France on a map.

I ask you again, in a non-hypothetical manner, why aren't there any eleven year old children working in a typical office? What's up with that? Could it be that some of the assignments given to these eleven year old kids just might not be age appropriate? Trying to turn kids into office workers is wasted effort. They'll get there, but not until at least puberty.

[Nihilianth]

You'd have lost your status simply by being absent if you'd gone to my school, because the next candidate would have advanced her GPA past yours by completing more work while you were gone. Competition was rather tight at my school. Our valedictorian determination actually went to court because the second-in-line's parents sued over the question of when the determination was made. It was calculated after the first semester of the senior year, but if it had been done at the end of the year he'd have beaten her by 0.005 points due to the microscopic grade-weighting in the calculations for AP classes. They both only got straight A's, of course, and took all the AP classes they could, but he'd gotten one more half-credit course than she did.

I never made it past 11th because a 3.99 GPA with only five college level courses simply didn't cut it there. I did get to skip a year of college, though.

Someone actually SUED to become valedictorian in your high school.....? Seriously?

Man, people really don't seem to have their priorities in order. I can tell you one thing, as a business man, most businesses could care less what you did in high school. They only really seem to care about attendance. They care more about what you did in college, but even more so, they care about your work experience.

I know for a fact that the valedictorian in my high school got passed over for several free-lance jobs in favor of me. The reason being: I have work experience, working with actual, real clients throughout high school and college. Despite my 3.02 overall GPA in high school, and 2.89 GPA in college.

In fact, one of my clients said they really don't care about my rather low college GPA, because I held down two jobs, while doing free-lance web work on the side, and going to school full-time.

[Nihilianth]

That's a terrible slur. I never said to withhold the antidote for not doing homework. I regard homework as pointless busywork. I suggested withholding the antidote for doing badly on tests, which are a far better measure of what the child is failing to learn.

:D

[Nihilianth]

wrong, every child should be in military school until 18. no exceptions.

Is this post for real, or you joking? You have got to be joking, right?

If not, you do realize this is not ancient Greece, and......oh nvm. I wouldn't even now where to even start on how incredibly stupid of an idea this is. :(

[Nihilianth]

Try not to be so good at trolling. I'd written you off as a nutter. Do you have anything of substance to contribute to the conversation?

Though I do agree with Mikey, and take the same stance as him (except for the military school thing until age 18! WTF?), he does rub off as a rather trollish condescending ass......

[Nihilianth]

I don't see how you can reconcile agreeing with my post 100% with your blaming the summer vacation model of school for students falling behind the other countries. You seem to be doing what I am talking about - blaming something other than the kids.

lol, well, you do have a point there! lol. I think the biggest problem with the system is the schedule. But the kids and the parents (mostly the parents) contribute even more to the problems in education in this country.

Did I mention that in this thread, or was that another thread? I know I mentioned somewhere that the parents are a major part of the problem. Mostly because they do not take the responsibility of having and raising kids properly, and come in and blame the teachers and the system on everything, rather than the laziness of their own kids, and poor parenting skill on their part.

But that doesn't mean that there are not problems in the system as well. I just happen to think those are quite minor in comparison to the parents and kids. I just think the biggest problem in schools is #1, the schedule. And #2, bullying, and 3. lack of security system. #s 1 and 3 are easily rectified. And number 3 would help reduce the incidents of bullying. At least on school grounds.

[jj]

One of my biggest themes throughout this thread, has been that students should be challenged.

Which, of course, is why busywork is the last thing children should be doing. Repeating skills they have mastered over, and over, and over, is teaching them contempt for the system, not teaching them how to think.

In other words, homework that does not create any challenge beyond using up time that could be spent on physical activity, physical fitness, or outside interests, is absolutely and exactly the opposite of challenging a child. It is boring the child, wasting their time, and teaching them contempt for a broken, very nearly corrupt and arrogant system. That is exactly the kind of homework that my kids got in jr. high and high school FOR THE MOST PART (yes, there are good classes and good teachers as well as horrid ones), and which they got NONE of when they left high school as juniors to go to community college to finish their high school education. In the 2-yr. college (where they spent their Sr. HS year), they learned more subjects and with substantially greater mastery in a much shorter period of time, without having excessive and repetitious homework. They graduated high school through a state program here that is called 'running start', an official, but somewhat unsupported (by the high schools) program in Washington State intended for advanced students. The evidence of their success is quite obvious in their progress through 4-year college.

The only downside of the college-as-high-schooler program is that they start 4-year Uni with more credits than they want in 4-year Uni, and have to twiddle their schedules in order to avoid graduating EARLY with a degree they don't want. (Yes, really, that's a very stupid side-effect of the Washingtoon educational system.)

Both are currently working on dual degrees, one in chem and math (with side interest in cog-psych), one in communications and environmental science (with side interest in psych of perception). Their choice, they should work on what they care about. I must say that it's quite interesting to be able to discuss group theory and Fourier analysis with the offspring, too, or discuss learning techniques with a math person who has actually studied the subjects nearly as much as their old man has, formally. (The old man, though, has a few years lead in applied research into perception...)

[jj]

But that doesn't mean that there are not problems in the system as well.

The present system is turning out kids much worse in math and science than the system of a generation ago. The system is not in a "problem" state, it is in a state of absolute, catastrophic failure.

Excessive homework is one of the most obvious symptoms of this abject, catastrophic failure.

[Nihilianth]

Doesn't the subject of the article play a role? What if they had assigned quantum mechanics or relativity? How about supply side economics? Of course that would be ridiculous. Do you know anything about Langston Hughes and his poetry? It's impossible for a 3rd grader to understand the significance of his poetry because they don't have the life experience.

Although it was tempting to suggest to him that he ask his teacher what "homoerotic" meant.

I am not really well-versed in American literature. So I can see your point about proper subject material. I would rather have the kids read something they might be interested in, in third grade. Maybe it would park their interest in reading, and create a healthy habit. Personally, I am not at all a big fan of poetry and old literature, unless it was written by Tolkien or CS Lewis. Most of the other stuff I find to be quite dry.

So yes, certainly subject material is a major component of this. But as I said, if you are concerned about it, I would take the issue up with the teacher and the principal. ;)






So, you give them an assignment, and no matter what they do, you tell them it's great?

When it comes to art, yes! Absolutely, yes! Save the critiques for those who are trying to get into the professional art field. Lord knows, college art students take critiques bad enough as it is. I wouldn't imagine telling a second grader: "Well, I think your use of color rather spoils the effect you were trying to achieve in your representation of how your family functions." :rolleyes:

All joking aside, I'll tell you, I can barely draw stick figures as it is, and I am an artist myself. Of the digital kind.

Not to mention the effects of "positive reinforcement," and "sparking the imagination of a child," and all that jazz that has to do with psychology. Remember, we are talking about 2nd and 3rd graders here!

My big objection to all of this is that these "art projects" are actually science or social studies assignments, but there is precious little science or social studies involved, but rather some sort of "creative use of materials" (part of his grade for building the musk ox in science class) or some sort of "presentation skills". Meanwhile, the kid can't find France on a map. That is something he's fully capable of learning, but they haven't bothered teaching it to him.

You said your child is in 3rd grade, correct? Without knowing the entire context of the entire curriculum of your kid's third grade class, I can hardly comment on this. I don't at all see the above issue as a huge deal for that particular subject: Art class.

As for geography, I know in my school, they start with world geography in fourth grade I believe. I know I remember learning about WWI in fourth grade, and learning the locations of countries. And I attended a private school that was supposedly further along than the public schools were.

You have to remember, if you read this thread all the way through, I already explained how first through third grade is reserved for foundational stuff, such as reading, writing, and math. We also have art and gym classes as well. Fourth grade is where they begin to introduce higher level aspects of the foundations. And fifth is when they begin to take off with the higher stuff, such as science, history, geography and so forth. Kids first need to learn the English language, so they can easily pronounce the name "France" just by quickly glancing at it, before you can begin to show them where the country is located. And the name "France" is the perfect example of having to teach foundational subjects, such as reading. A second grader....heck even third graders would struggle with that word, because they are still learning the basic rules of "silent e," and the letter "c" sounding like an "s."




Would you teach algebra in the third grade? Calculus in fifth? How about the laws of motion, in numeric form in the fourth grade? Perhaps the theory of Communism in fifth grade social studies?

Of course you wouldn't. Their brains haven't reached that point where they can comprehend that stuff.

And this has nothing to do with the discussion.

Likewise their maturity level within their social interactions isn't at a level where they can effectively work on the sort of team projects that they are asked to work on. Kids don't do that sort of thing very well, and the efforts to push it are largely wasted. It ends up being an utter waste of time when they could be learning to find France on a map.

Kids have to first learn how to read and recognize a word, before knowing exactly what it is. I already explained the problem with locating countries on a map, because country names can e difficult.

As for group projects: It is HARDLY a waste of time! In fact, 6 years old is the perfect age to begin to teach working together as a group to succeed. Why do you think most sports programs start at the age of 6? You have pee-wee football, AYSO, Little League Baseball. (At least, in the USA.) You also have dancing classes, gymnastics, swimming....basically all sports are introduced at the age of six. One of the biggest tenets of teaching young kids how to play sports, is how to work as a team in order to succeed.

And of course, by the time they are in 3rd grade, they are three years older yet! They are 9 years old in third grade. They have got to learn this very important and necessary skill by the time they reach 5th.

I ask you again, in a non-hypothetical manner, why aren't there any eleven year old children working in a typical office? What's up with that? Could it be that some of the assignments given to these eleven year old kids just might not be age appropriate? Trying to turn kids into office workers is wasted effort. They'll get there, but not until at least puberty.

I want to ask you a very serious question, because I am completely confused. Why are you asking me "why aren't they office workers?" I assume it is a rhetorical question?

It isn't about forcing 11 year old to become office workers or anything particular like that right now! That doesn't even make any sense! Rather, we are preparing children to be able to function in life as they grow older. Humans, by their very nature, are one of the most social animals on the planet. Other social animals: Ants, bees, monkeys, and dogs. It is an entirely natural thing for all social animals to be able to work as a unit. It is a natural instinct which we are all born with. Reinforcing this instinct will allow them to grow up with the necessary skills to tackle anything as a group. Hopefully, it would teach other very important life lessons. Such as how some people have greater skills in some areas than others. And other people will have greater skills in yet other areas. As you pull a diverse group of people together, each with specific skills to contribute to a task, you end up with a team that has very diverse skills. You learn that every member of a team is important. And that every human being around you has the potential to be a part of a successful team. This is a good way to breed respect among their peers, and hopefully reduce bullying, and intolerance.

On the other hand, being able to locate France on a map is not a natural instinct. It must be taught, but at the appropriate level. In the appropriate sequence of education. Reading and reading comprehension is a very important foundational skill one must have, before you can ever begin to tackle the word "France," what it is, and where it is located. Therefore, reading and reading comprehension must come first. Meanwhile, group-building exercises are a great way to break up a day into chunks of varying types of learning.

[Nihilianth]

Which, of course, is why busywork is the last thing children should be doing. Repeating skills they have mastered over, and over, and over, is teaching them contempt for the system, not teaching them how to think.

In other words, homework that does not create any challenge beyond using up time that could be spent on physical activity, physical fitness, or outside interests, is absolutely and exactly the opposite of challenging a child. It is boring the child, wasting their time, and teaching them contempt for a broken, very nearly corrupt and arrogant system. That is exactly the kind of homework that my kids got in jr. high and high school FOR THE MOST PART (yes, there are good classes and good teachers as well as horrid ones), and which they got NONE of when they left high school as juniors to go to community college to finish their high school education. In the 2-yr. college (where they spent their Sr. HS year), they learned more subjects and with substantially greater mastery in a much shorter period of time, without having excessive and repetitious homework. They graduated high school through a state program here that is called 'running start', an official, but somewhat unsupported (by the high schools) program in Washington State intended for advanced students. The evidence of their success is quite obvious in their progress through 4-year college.

The only downside of the college-as-high-schooler program is that they start 4-year Uni with more credits than they want in 4-year Uni, and have to twiddle their schedules in order to avoid graduating EARLY with a degree they don't want. (Yes, really, that's a very stupid side-effect of the Washingtoon educational system.)

Both are currently working on dual degrees, one in chem and math (with side interest in cog-psych), one in communications and environmental science (with side interest in psych of perception). Their choice, they should work on what they care about. I must say that it's quite interesting to be able to discuss group theory and Fourier analysis with the offspring, too, or discuss learning techniques with a math person who has actually studied the subjects nearly as much as their old man has, formally. (The old man, though, has a few years lead in applied research into perception...)
[/quote]

"Teaching kids how to think" is not a major concern. Teaching them reading, and reading comprehension is. Quick: Tell me what is the best way for someone to learn how to think for themselves? I would imagine that reading is a major component of this. Once again, it all comes down to reading, and reading comprehension. You must know how to read. Not just read, but you must also know how to comprehend what you are reading. This is the most basic, and all-important, all-encompassing skill one can possibly possess. Without it, there is absolutely no way for anyone to be able to figure anything out on their own, unless they are a mechanical tinkerer or something like that. And even then, they will only have very rudimentary skills in mechanics.

The only way to get a child to be able to read, is by doing, doing, and doing. Repetition is the most effective means of learning to read. It is the most effective means of doing basic mathematics. As a web designer, I can CERTAINLY tell you that, whenever I stop working in HTML, or Javascript for (especially JS!) for any length of time, I forget what to do, and have to take a bit of time to "re-learn it."

Children will only learn "contempt" of the system, if the parents teach it to them, if you take the method DD explained in his very first post in this whole thread.

Basically, learning is not easy. Nobody says it is easy, and nobody says it is going to be easy. Nor should learning BE easy. Just like building muscles by exercising, it takes a lot of time and effort. That is why there are 12 grades (13 if you count kindergarten, 14 if you count pre-school!) And it takes 12-14 years, just to get out of secondary education. It will then take another 2 years on top of that for an Associates, 4 for a Bachelor's, 6 for a Master's, 8 for a Doctorate's, and 10 for a Post-doctorate's! We are talking up to 24 friggin years of learning. That is one third of your life-span. Then, once you are finally set up in a career, you never stop learning, because the world is constantly moving on to the next big thing!

Many examples in the professional world when it comes to repitition:

All professional athletes cannot afford to take more than three months off in conditioning, practicing, or playing. If they do so, they will get set back quite a bit, and gain a lot of "rust."

Pilots must always be flying something if they want to remain employable. Pilots, too, gain a certain amount of "rust" if they are grounded for any length of time. Even when pilots are not grounded, they still need to stay up to date with their license, which means they must show they are still competent in flying planes.

In the computer world, if you are Microsoft certified, you must demonstrate you skills every year in order to maintain your certification.

If you are a lifeguard, likewise, you must go through CPR, and physical fitness testing in order to maintain your certification.

Police officers, and all military personnel must take target practice periodically, in order to maintain accuracy, and effectiveness with firearms. They must do PT in order to maintain a healthy body.

Cooks....all professional cooks, from chefs to sous chefs and so forth, must continue working in their profession, or else they too gain quite a bit of "rust."

Those who practice law, in order to stay on top of their game, must continue to practice law and constantly do research and always go back to read up on old materials, and stay current with new ones as well.

Same with doctors. Doctors must always be practicing medicine so they too won't get rusty. I would much rather have a fairly noob doctor perform rain surgery on me that has been at it constantly for the past 5 years, than someone who used to do it constantly for 30 years, but hasn't done it in the past one year. They are "out of practice" much like all those other professions.

After all, if you don't use it, you lose it. There is quite a bit of regression if you do not continue to utilize what you have learned. Especially if you have learned something as recently as a second grader has learned to read or do math. It is absolutely true, and you cannot possibly deny that this is so.

So yeah, go ahead and feel contempt for a system that utilizes repetitions if you want, but you will only build up bad habits, and will get left behind in the dust by your peers. I would highly suggest you learn a bit about human (and animal) learning and cognitive development.

[Nihilianth]

The present system is turning out kids much worse in math and science than the system of a generation ago. The system is not in a "problem" state, it is in a state of absolute, catastrophic failure.

Excessive homework is one of the most obvious symptoms of this abject, catastrophic failure.

We are turning out kids who are much worse in math and science than a generation ago? sources? I think you need to verify those. We are much further along than we were even a decade ago. A decade ago, we are even further along than we were two decades ago.

I think you are mixing up our loss of our lead in education in the world in the past generation, with churning out kids who are better now than they were in the past generation.

The reason why we are being surpassed, is simply because the rest of the world is inherently taking education far more seriously than we are. While Japan, China, Europe, and South America have increased their education budgets 10 fold, we are skimming back on education. Going so far as taking away funding from schools that are most in need! It is absolutely outrageous, and inexcusable! Yet, despite that, the kids are performing better. But I think that is due to better techniques, rather than the budget cuts.

I still insist the one of the main reasons why we are being left behind, is our refusal to admit that three months of summer vacation harms the education of a child, and slows the process down.

[tesscaline]

Children will only learn "contempt" of the system, if the parents teach it to them, if you take the method DD explained in his very first post in this whole thread.
I call BS on that.

I had "contempt" for the system as a child. My parents encouraged learning, in fact, my father is a teacher himself. But school was BORING. It wasn't difficult at all. It was just flat boring. Homework was boring, classwork was boring, teachers were boring. The only reason I didn't end up with straight A's in every class was because I was SO BORED that I flat out refused to participate and/or do homework. I aced every test without doing homework, or paying much attention in class. I read through the text books. Plain and simple. But, you know, that's what you get when you have "teachers" who don't actually know anything about the subjects they're teaching, and just teach what the teacher's guide tells them to teach -- word for word. There was almost nothing taught that required any degree of actual thought. Just blind repetition. This KILLS children's minds. It really sucks that you're actually advocating this sort of drivel, actually.

I have contempt for the current system because of very similar issues. There is no thought involved. No reasoning skills. Just blind rote memorization of whatever the teacher's guide says to teach. Memorizing facts (whether or not they're actually facts is under dispute with me, as I've actually had to correct blatant errors on homework sheets sent home with my child -- the response about it? "I just teach what the teacher's guide says to" Pathetic.) is not learning. It is memorization. Any idiot can memorize just about anything. That doesn't mean they understand it, or can apply that knowledge to anything other than a test designed to get them to spew it back out. My child is BORED. And no amount of bitching about that to teachers helps. Why? All they can do is teach out of their little books, which are designed to teach to a test that my child can already pass (no thanks to the teachers, mind you).

And here you are saying that the majority of problems with the education system are, what? The SCHEDULE? I say that the problem isn't the schedule, it's that the vast majority of teachers don't actually KNOW anything, and the few who do aren't actually allowed to TEACH it, or, fsm forbid, fail someone who doesn't learn it. Instead, children are forced to memorize loads of facts without understanding the theories or thought processes behind those facts. All in the hopes of making sure "no one fails". It's utterly ridiculous.

What's even more utterly ridiculous is that you're actually defending it.

[jj]

"Teaching kids how to think" is not a major concern.


And, in a nutshell, you admit completely that you don't even see what the problem is.

Learning methods of solution, logic, reasoning, inference, etc, are all skills that we MUST TEACH. They are to some extent innate, but the current research shows that we can TEACH these skills.

You have argued from the point of view of cognative psych, but now you argue exactly opposite? Cognition is not the issue? Thinking is not the issue? :jaw-dropp

Your arguments to learning muscle memory, of all things, are completely inappropriate, just like your prior reference to the brain as a "muscle". Your arguments in regard to homework utterly miss the point.:rolleyes:

Your pathetic personal attack about teaching contempt shows nothing but the contempt you express for your own students, in that you assume that students ARE INCAPABLE OF LEARNING CONTEMPT FROM YOUR OWN DEMONSTRATED, EXPRESSED CONTEMPT OF THEIR ABILITY TO REASON. Implicit in your statement is the idea that students are incapable of figuring this out on their own.

What's more, you show the most basic of logical mistakes by making the following claim:

Children will only learn "contempt" of the system, if the parents teach it to them, if you take the method DD explained in his very first post in this whole thread.

That's the ONLY way they will learn contempt? They are incapable of learning it on their own? That, in and of itself, shows your own horrid contempt for your students. What's more, your statement carries within itself an implicit claim that there are no other ways to learn contempt for homework. You've claimed a negative, something that is known to be unprovable, yet you assert it as gospel.

The continual horrid mistakes in your claims, assertions, and smugly arrogant, but implicit, accusations of those you disagree with speaks very ill of your positions, and if we are to take your claims of training at face value, speaks even more ill of the training that teachers are getting.

From the begining, you have taken the attitude that you know better than everyone who is discussing this with you, you repeatedly attribute ignorance and/or confusion to your opponents without justification or evidence, yet you do not even respond to the basics of the actual science that you claim to be citing, and fail to understand, yourself, that an expert in the field of cognative psychology would in fact be aware of a variety of studies in regard to the uses and ill uses of repetition.

Yet you continue, unabated, casting aspersions, making illogical claims that assert the unprovable negative, and show contempt for the abliity of your own students by claiming implicitly that they can not see the futulity of excessive repetition.

Finally, it would appear that you believe, although you have failed to state, that everyone learns in the same fashion. That, by itself, has been refuted time and again by study after study. There is no universal way to teach all students, that's as well established as the theory of evolution. Do you deny that as well?

[jj]

All they can do is teach out of their little books, which are designed to teach to a test that my child can already pass (no thanks to the teachers, mind you).

What's worse is that some of the teachers my kids dealt with were capable of doing much more, but were not allowed to.

And, yeah, my kids passed the 'graduation requirement' tests in Washington, one in 9th grade, one in 10th. Both reported that the test was so easy as to be meaningless. None the less, the math and science tests have been dropped as "too hard" :rolleyes: because of the number of people who fail them. Um, I know where these two students learned math and science, and they learned enough of both from their parents by playing around with it to pass those tests, somewhere rather before 9th grade. The only down side to that was having one kid's class test marked wrong for knowing how to actually solve a problem instead of apply a formula.

If I have a gripe about lack of repetition, there was not nearly enough practice in algebraic manipulation, not at all. That, however, is not taught by formula, nor by memorization, but rather by teaching the child to THINK, something you argue is not even necessary. Fortunately, both kids seem to have picked up a fair understanding of algebra, well, now, for one that includes abstract algebra and a lot of other things beyond that.

My goodness, what a disaster you would bring us to. Don't teach them to think? That is a recipe for ultimate, absolute catastrophe.

[mikeyx]

Is this post for real, or you joking? You have got to be joking, right?

If not, you do realize this is not ancient Greece, and......oh nvm. I wouldn't even now where to even start on how incredibly stupid of an idea this is. :(

y2hbt, as in trolled, silly goose...... I even said already. Do make sure lil' Johnny reports to revelry by 0:500.....

[mikeyx]

Though I do agree with Mikey, and take the same stance as him (except for the military school thing until age 18! WTF?), he does rub off as a rather trollish condescending ass......

Lets try this one more time, I actually WAS trolling with the military school thing, gladiator combat actually would give a more hands on understanding of today's urban combat realities, and pick up your jaw good sir, you inspired this troll.

:jaw-dropp:D:jaw-dropp

[Meadmaker]

I am not really well-versed in American literature. So I can see your point about proper subject material.

Exactly. In this particular case it was Black History Month and they had a list of famous black people, and Langston Hughes was one of them, and they ended up creating an assignment that a 3rd grader couldn't do.

We found ourselves frequently encountering such assignments in the first few years of his schooling. Now that he is in sixth grade, it happens much more rarely.


You said your child is in 3rd grade, correct? Without knowing the entire context of the entire curriculum of your kid's third grade class, I can hardly comment on this. I don't at all see the above issue as a huge deal for that particular subject: Art class.

The point about the "art projects" is that they were not assigned in art class. They were assigned in Social Studies and Science class. So, in Social Studies, when the subject matter was climate and its effects on culture, a group of four boys were assigned to work together on a poster describing climate and culture. They were given three days.

The results, as described to me by my son, but filtered through my own perception, were two days of arguing about what sort of letters looked best, and whether this picture was cooler than that picture, and why the Detroit Lions were so bad (because if you give four boys three days to work on something in a group project, no more than half of that time will actually be spent working on the project) and all sorts of things that weren't helping them learn anything about climate and/or culture. Then, on the third day, they hastily threw something together under the direction of whichever one emerged as the dominant personality, which was probably the one who knew the most about the Detroit Lions.

But they did have to store the poster, because part of their grade is based on their assignment collection and its organization. All returned homework and tests must be kept in a folder, organized by date, which will be inspected by the teacher to verify the completeness of the records and graded accordingly.

So, why bother with that junk? I see it in the literature all the time. They are preparing these kids with important skills they will use in the workplace. That climate poster may one day be a sales presentation. Those homework assignments in the folder are standins for receipts and invoices.




As for group projects: It is HARDLY a waste of time!


I agree, except that it depends on the style of the project. What I see are group projects that are designed, specifically, to mimic office-style interaction, and those are inappropriate for eleven year old kids.




I want to ask you a very serious question, because I am completely confused. Why are you asking me "why aren't they office workers?" I assume it is a rhetorical question?

No. It isn't. Curricula are being designed on teaching skills to sixth graders that will be useful in an office environment. I think that's ridiculous. If kids were capable of being office workers, they would be office workers.

I think what you missed is that, apparently, this sort of thinking has not explicitly infected your particular school system, so you haven't seen this emphasis. I see all sorts of emphasis on "job skills" among descriptions of grade school and junior high education. I



It isn't about forcing 11 year old to become office workers or anything particular like that right now! That doesn't even make any sense!

I agree with your second sentence, but I think the first sentence is far less true than I would like it to be.

Such as how some people have greater skills in some areas than others. And other people will have greater skills in yet other areas. As you pull a diverse group of people together, each with specific skills to contribute to a task, you end up with a team that has very diverse skills. You learn that every member of a team is important.

Oh, wait. At eleven, you don't learn that. That's the problem. You learn that Johnny didn't do his part. You learn that Fred wanted to do something stupid. You learn that I knew what to do but no one listened to me. (This is how the kids will describe the project afterwards, because they didn't truly "learn" anything.)

In short, you learn a lot of bickering because the kind of skills you have described are way beyond the level of an eleven year old team, except for very short and simple projects, that are not much at all like what they will do when later, they have to make a sales presentation or build a new machine. If they were capable of that level of interaction, they could be hired as office workers and be effective team members. They aren't. There's a reason eleven year olds don't have jobs. It's because they can't do them. Their homework assignments at that age shouldn't look like job assignments.

And, more directly to the specific point of this thread, what happens? As our son described the partially completed project and the interactions between the students, we found ourselves stepping in with suggestions to try to help him, and telling him to pick up the phone and talk to his peers, and other parents did the same. In other words, we were doing the kids' homework, because they couldn't possibly do it themselves.

[mikeyx]

Maybe I missed this portion of the discussion but has anyone considered the effect of tenure on Teacher complacency?

[Nihilianth]

I call BS on that.

I had "contempt" for the system as a child. My parents encouraged learning, in fact, my father is a teacher himself. But school was BORING. It wasn't difficult at all. It was just flat boring. Homework was boring, classwork was boring, teachers were boring. The only reason I didn't end up with straight A's in every class was because I was SO BORED that I flat out refused to participate and/or do homework. I aced every test without doing homework, or paying much attention in class. I read through the text books. Plain and simple. But, you know, that's what you get when you have "teachers" who don't actually know anything about the subjects they're teaching, and just teach what the teacher's guide tells them to teach -- word for word. There was almost nothing taught that required any degree of actual thought. Just blind repetition. This KILLS children's minds. It really sucks that you're actually advocating this sort of drivel, actually.

I have contempt for the current system because of very similar issues. There is no thought involved. No reasoning skills. Just blind rote memorization of whatever the teacher's guide says to teach. Memorizing facts (whether or not they're actually facts is under dispute with me, as I've actually had to correct blatant errors on homework sheets sent home with my child -- the response about it? "I just teach what the teacher's guide says to" Pathetic.) is not learning. It is memorization. Any idiot can memorize just about anything. That doesn't mean they understand it, or can apply that knowledge to anything other than a test designed to get them to spew it back out. My child is BORED. And no amount of bitching about that to teachers helps. Why? All they can do is teach out of their little books, which are designed to teach to a test that my child can already pass (no thanks to the teachers, mind you).

And here you are saying that the majority of problems with the education system are, what? The SCHEDULE? I say that the problem isn't the schedule, it's that the vast majority of teachers don't actually KNOW anything, and the few who do aren't actually allowed to TEACH it, or, fsm forbid, fail someone who doesn't learn it. Instead, children are forced to memorize loads of facts without understanding the theories or thought processes behind those facts. All in the hopes of making sure "no one fails". It's utterly ridiculous.

What's even more utterly ridiculous is that you're actually defending it.

Based on this post, I would have to say you don't know anything.

So, while you may criticize me, and the school system, how about you present a better solution, huh? And please, base your new system on human psychology and learning, especially of the child kind. I expect to see a a report several hundred pages long, and published in a peer-reviewed journal with many different sources.

Oh, you don't have that kind of time or energy? Ok, sorry. I guess that was a bit much to ask of you. In which case, I will stick with what is known about how all mammals learn, not just humans. I will stick with psychology, and all the school teachers, administrators, and so forth on this one. ;)

[mikeyx]

Based on this post, I would have to say you don't know anything.

So, while you may criticize me, and the school system, how about you present a better solution, huh? And please, base your new system on human psychology and learning, especially of the child kind. I expect to see a a report several hundred pages long, and published in a peer-reviewed journal with many different sources.

Oh, you don't have that kind of time or energy? Ok, sorry. I guess that was a bit much to ask of you. In which case, I will stick with what is known about how all mammals learn, not just humans. I will stick with psychology, and all the school teachers, administrators, and so forth on this one. ;)

dude, Military School is the only way, maybe clown college.

[Nihilianth]

And, in a nutshell, you admit completely that you don't even see what the problem is.

Learning methods of solution, logic, reasoning, inference, etc, are all skills that we MUST TEACH. They are to some extent innate, but the current research shows that we can TEACH these skills.

Well, no **** we can teach these skills! You are talking on too broad a basis, however. What grade group are you, specifically, talking about teaching these skills? I would like to know, because I am basing my arguments on children between kindergarten and third grade....may fourth grade here.

Between the ages of 6 and 10 or 11....basically under the age of twelve....trying to teach children how to think critically is all but useless. They don't even know how to read all that well yet! So how do you propose we teach children how to read, and comprehend what they are reading, how to write, along with basic math skills, and maybe a little bit of science and social studies thrown in, along with art, gym class, lunch, and recess all within a 7 hour day, and a 180 day school year, a quarter of which is wasted just trying to reteach the last two months of the previous year?

And how useful do you think that "critical thinking" skills are if you can't even read for comprehension all that well in order to find things out for yourself?

Sorry, but "critical thinking skills" is a higher function of learning than reading comprehension. Once again, you are trying to build the roof, before the foundation is even laid out! Amazing how people ignore my house building comparison I typed out.

You have argued from the point of view of cognative psych, but now you argue exactly opposite? Cognition is not the issue? Thinking is not the issue? :jaw-dropp

What are you talking about? You're use of obnoxious smilies is dumb.

Your arguments to learning muscle memory, of all things, are completely inappropriate, just like your prior reference to the brain as a "muscle". Your arguments in regard to homework utterly miss the point.:rolleyes:

We've already been over this. I was already corrected about that. While the rain is not TECHNICALLY a muscle, it is analogous to muscles.

http://www.heall.com/healingnews/aug/brain_and_aging.html
http://www.newsweek.com/blogs/nurture-shock/2009/12/11/is-the-brain-like-a-muscle-really.html

Nevertheless, it’s striking evidence that indeed, the brain is like a muscle. While every individual probably has upper limits to what we might be capable of, brain training – like weight training, or fitness training – can lift us towards those limits.


Your pathetic personal attack about teaching contempt shows nothing but the contempt you express for your own students, in that you assume that students ARE INCAPABLE OF LEARNING CONTEMPT FROM YOUR OWN DEMONSTRATED, EXPRESSED CONTEMPT OF THEIR ABILITY TO REASON. Implicit in your statement is the idea that students are incapable of figuring this out on their own.

Wrong. Parents can easily teach a child how to properly respect an authority figure, such as a teacher. Did I say that children STRICTLY learn contempt from parents? Absolutely not! But the majority of students most certainly do get a huge portion of their habits and ideas from their parents.

What's more, you show the most basic of logical mistakes by making the following claim:



That's the ONLY way they will learn contempt? They are incapable of learning it on their own? That, in and of itself, shows your own horrid contempt for your students. What's more, your statement carries within itself an implicit claim that there are no other ways to learn contempt for homework. You've claimed a negative, something that is known to be unprovable, yet you assert it as gospel.

WTF are you talking about? Seriously. What are you talking about?

First of all....nvm, I am only going to say that you have obviously gotten yourself so worked up over one stupid little tangent, and are now blowing it WAAAY out of proportion. Perhaps I should not have said the "ONLY" way they learn blah, blah, blah. But instead of going on for three paragraphs saying "OMG YOU ARE ST00PID!!!??!?" You could have just simly pointed out an erroneous use of one single four letter word.

Now, having said all of that, I amend that statement to be "the vast majority of children learn the vast majority of their habits and ways of thinking from their parents." If, as a parent, you are going to draw a line across the paper after taking just 5 minutes of working on it because it is "taking too long," you have just taught your child it is ok to not put any effort into his work, and that he can just simply draw a line where "it is taking too long."

I would sure as hell love to see someone in the professional world....or even in high school....do such a thing. The teacher/boss/client/whatever will just simply be like "hhmmm......ok, assigned work is not complete. Fail!"

The continual horrid mistakes in your claims, assertions, and smugly arrogant, but implicit, accusations of those you disagree with speaks very ill of your positions, and if we are to take your claims of training at face value, speaks even more ill of the training that teachers are getting.

Pot:Kettle:Black.

If I am treating you with contempt and arrogance, perhaps it is time for you to go back and reread this whole thread, and especially your responses to my posts. Post number 81, I think it was, was your second post. At the end of your first post, you made the arrogant remark "I have nothing else to say to you!" Then on the opening of your very next post was "WHAT!? I guess I DO have something more to say to you!"

So, yeah. Treat me with disrespect, don't expect anything nice in return.

From the begining, you have taken the attitude that you know better than everyone who is discussing this with you, you repeatedly attribute ignorance and/or confusion to your opponents without justification or evidence, yet you do not even respond to the basics of the actual science that you claim to be citing, and fail to understand, yourself, that an expert in the field of cognative psychology would in fact be aware of a variety of studies in regard to the uses and ill uses of repetition.

Whose the psychologist in this thread? What are the sources that person is aware of? Where can I find said sources? You and DD are the ones making unsupported claims about the current system. You want change, it is up to you to furnish the evidence. Not me. I have furnished several links about the ill effects of three months of vacation. I have even given examples of what happens in the professional world when you take three months off. I have given examples of occupations that require professionals to get re-licensed, even if they have not taken any time off at all. Basically, I made a claim about what the current system does wrong, and I supplied evidence and sources that supported my view. You have a problem with the current system's use of homework. It is entirely up to you to provide the evidence and sources for a change for the better. So far, there is none in this thread whatsoever!

Yet you continue, unabated, casting aspersions, making illogical claims that assert the unprovable negative, and show contempt for the abliity of your own students by claiming implicitly that they can not see the futulity of excessive repetition.

blah, blah, blah. I have not may any "negative claims" at all. I think you are quite the liar. I have provided examples and evidence about the benefits of repetition.

Finally, it would appear that you believe, although you have failed to state, that everyone learns in the same fashion. That, by itself, has been refuted time and again by study after study. There is no universal way to teach all students, that's as well established as the theory of evolution. Do you deny that as well?

Whoa, whoa, whoa!! hold it right there! I "fail to state that everyone learns in the same fashion," and yet you make the claim that I believe this is so? Where do you come off telling me what I think/believe, huh smart guy? I have not mentioned one word about learning styles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Learning_styles). In fact, that wasn't even brought up. We were talking about the importance/unimportance of repetition. That is very different from learning styles.

[Nihilianth]

y2hbt, as in trolled, silly goose...... I even said already. Do make sure lil' Johnny reports to revelry by 0:500.....

Lets try this one more time, I actually WAS trolling with the military school thing, gladiator combat actually would give a more hands on understanding of today's urban combat realities, and pick up your jaw good sir, you inspired this troll.

:jaw-dropp:D:jaw-dropp

OHH!! well then! My apologies! :D

[not daSkeptic]

Did I say that children STRICTLY learn contempt from parents? Absolutely not!


What did you mean by the following:

Children will only learn "contempt" of the system, if the parents teach it to them, if you take the method DD explained in his very first post in this whole thread.

[jj]

We were talking about the importance/unimportance of repetition. That is very different from learning styles.

So the way people learn (which you assert is repetition) has nothing to do with the way they learn? That's what you just said in the sentence quoted above.

That seems, frankly, an odd thing to say.

I'm starting to doubt your sincerity.

[jj]

What did you mean by the following:

The quotes you show are another reason I'm starting to doubt the sincerity of this poster.

[Nihilianth]

Exactly. In this particular case it was Black History Month and they had a list of famous black people, and Langston Hughes was one of them, and they ended up creating an assignment that a 3rd grader couldn't do.

We found ourselves frequently encountering such assignments in the first few years of his schooling. Now that he is in sixth grade, it happens much more rarely.




The point about the "art projects" is that they were not assigned in art class. They were assigned in Social Studies and Science class. So, in Social Studies, when the subject matter was climate and its effects on culture, a group of four boys were assigned to work together on a poster describing climate and culture. They were given three days.

The results, as described to me by my son, but filtered through my own perception, were two days of arguing about what sort of letters looked best, and whether this picture was cooler than that picture, and why the Detroit Lions were so bad (because if you give four boys three days to work on something in a group project, no more than half of that time will actually be spent working on the project) and all sorts of things that weren't helping them learn anything about climate and/or culture. Then, on the third day, they hastily threw something together under the direction of whichever one emerged as the dominant personality, which was probably the one who knew the most about the Detroit Lions.

OH! Ok. Well then. You're stance is much clearer, and makes much more sense now. I do wholeheartedly agree here! If there is very little structure/supervision in the classroom, then certainly "group projects" such as this is a useless waste of time. There is one caveat I still have with this, however:

What if this three-day group project was purposely designed for the students to fail on purpose? What if the teacher had another day teaching about where, why, and how the students failed? What if the teacher decides to use the next day, showing them the right way to do something? Usually, learning something the hard way first is always the most effective means of learning.

The teacher could explain to the students "here is where you made your mistake. You had all this time to complete an assignment, and you failed for these reasons: blah, blah, and blah. That's perfectly alright! This project will not reflect on your grade at all..." and go through and teach the kids a better way of working together, using the same groups to finish the same project a second time. This time, with a lot more structure and input from the teacher. When they are finished with the one-day version of the project, they can now lay the projects side-by-side. They will clearly see a difference in quality, and the amount of time spent on each project. Hopefully, the one-day project comes out with superior quality, and the kids learned a very important life lesson, while getting something out of it educational-wise as well.

I had a baseball coach who frequently played these kind of games on us. He would purposely set us up for failure temporarily, then go ahead and teach us a better, more efficient way of doing something. This was perhaps one of the best "teachers" in my life, and was very inspiring (even if he was seemingly a hard-ass at the time.)

But they did have to store the poster, because part of their grade is based on their assignment collection and its organization. All returned homework and tests must be kept in a folder, organized by date, which will be inspected by the teacher to verify the completeness of the records and graded accordingly.

This part I agree with. We begin to teach organization skills in second grade. In third grade, is when most teachers expect students to begin to become proficient in this skill.

So, why bother with that junk? I see it in the literature all the time. They are preparing these kids with important skills they will use in the workplace. That climate poster may one day be a sales presentation. Those homework assignments in the folder are standins for receipts and invoices.

Other than my scenario described above, I kind of agree with this. I mean, about the poster project being junk. I agree with the teacher's expectation to keep everything organized and dated in a folder. Elementary school is preparing kids for high school, where they are going to have a myriad different subjects, all vying for attention. Once you are in HS, thats how life is from there on out.





I agree, except that it depends on the style of the project. What I see are group projects that are designed, specifically, to mimic office-style interaction, and those are inappropriate for eleven year old kids.

I am slightly unclear as to what you mean by "office-style interaction." The vast majority of professions all have the same style interactions. I think it is legit to have these sorts of exercises for 11 year olds, so long as it is structured, and supervised with heavy intervention from the teacher. Actually, I think the most effective means of teaching teamwork is of the physical exercises like boy scouts do, not necessarily the types of projects that you were talking about.





No. It isn't. Curricula are being designed on teaching skills to sixth graders that will be useful in an office environment. I think that's ridiculous. If kids were capable of being office workers, they would be office workers.

I think what you missed is that, apparently, this sort of thinking has not explicitly infected your particular school system, so you haven't seen this emphasis. I see all sorts of emphasis on "job skills" among descriptions of grade school and junior high education.

Well, I know that up until the age of 11 or 12, we teach traditional foundational stuff. I am not entirely sure what sorts of group projects the 3rd and 4th grade teachers are doing at my school.

I can relate one "project" I remember doing when I was in 4th grade. It was a World War I project, in which we were learning the inner-workings of global politics leading up to that war. The room was divided up into different countries, and each country represented in the room had two (or 3) students each. The teacher rearranged all the desks into a circle, and gave each group a banner with their country's name on it. We were allowed to decorate the banner however we liked, but had to use the same colors as on the flags of those countries at the time. Which means, we had to look up what the flags of our country looked like. She then taped the banner to the two desks of the students who were "partners." She kept the room arranged this way for the duration of that particular unit. We were each given a topic to discuss each, and try to persuade another group to go along with what we wanted to do.

It was a very fun project. One of the few projects that really sticks out in my mind from my entire school experience.




I agree with your second sentence, but I think the first sentence is far less true than I would like it to be. [snip]

I think I already about covered the rest of your post up above. :)

[Nihilianth]

dude, Military School is the only way, maybe clown college.

:D

[Nihilianth]

What did you mean by the following:

Well, in that same post, I did say that I amend what I had said, after it was so rudely pointed out by jj:


Now, having said all of that, I amend that statement to be "the vast majority of children learn the vast majority of their habits and ways of thinking from their parents." If, as a parent, you are going to draw a line across the paper after taking just 5 minutes of working on it because it is "taking too long," you have just taught your child it is ok to not put any effort into his work, and that he can just simply draw a line where "it is taking too long."

I don't care if people point wrong/bad wording, or ask for clarity. I will gladly provide better clarity, and to retract inaccurate/bad statements. Even if you do so as rudely as jj did, I will still retract or amend an erroneous, or poorly stated phrase. It's just that doing it JJ's way wastes a lot of time and energy.

[Nihilianth]

So the way people learn (which you assert is repetition) has nothing to do with the way they learn? That's what you just said in the sentence quoted above.

That seems, frankly, an odd thing to say.

I'm starting to doubt your sincerity.

No. You are twisting things around. You had said this:

Finally, it would appear that you believe, although you have failed to state, that everyone learns in the same fashion. That, by itself, has been refuted time and again by study after study. There is no universal way to teach all students, that's as well established as the theory of evolution. Do you deny that as well?

Apparently you did not visit the link to a wiki article on "Learning Styles" that I took the time to provide. Repetition is not a "learning style." Learning styles are different ways in which each individual learns most efficiently.

Repetition is an all-encompassing trait that allows a person to better absorb what they have already learned. Exactly like working out, and practicing.

When you work out or practice for a physical contest, there are different ways and techniques that are far more efficient in achieving your desired results than other techniques. You can do the typical 3 sets of ten reps of "pumping iron" for three months if you want to. But that is terribly inefficient compared to the P90x-like intensive workout regimens that changes your exercises up periodically. But even with those different styles of working out, repetition is still the fundamental component of getting stronger, or faster.

[not daSkeptic]

Well, in that same post, I did say that I amend what I had said ...

Actually, you said that in a later post (#183 versus #172).

[tesscaline]

Based on this post, I would have to say you don't know anything.Burden of proof. Prove I don't know what I'm talking about. Go ahead.

Note, I was responding to a very specific statement of yours. A statement that was absolute. All one needs to counter an absolute is one single example to the contrary.

So, while you may criticize me, and the school system, how about you present a better solution, huh? And please, base your new system on human psychology and learning, especially of the child kind. I expect to see a a report several hundred pages long, and published in a peer-reviewed journal with many different sources.

Oh, you don't have that kind of time or energy? Ok, sorry. I guess that was a bit much to ask of you. In which case, I will stick with what is known about how all mammals learn, not just humans. I will stick with psychology, and all the school teachers, administrators, and so forth on this one. ;)So, people aren't allowed to point out problems without already having solutions for them? That's blatantly juvenile. This sort of over-emotional and totally illogical outburst really doesn't paint your views in a good light.

I also like how you're appealing to authority to defend yourself, all the while ignoring the fact that the authority you're appealing to is the exact group that I'm disputing the authority of. Circular logic much?

Teachers can't possibly be bad teachers because they say they're teaching the right way? Really? That's all you have to say?

Posts like yours are exactly why other posters in this thread, as well as myself, say the school systems are failing us. Young people are not being taught to think, reason, or otherwise use logic.

[Nihilianth]

Actually, you said that in a later post (#183 versus #172).

Heh, my bad. :)

[tesscaline]

What's worse is that some of the teachers my kids dealt with were capable of doing much more, but were not allowed to.

And, yeah, my kids passed the 'graduation requirement' tests in Washington, one in 9th grade, one in 10th. Both reported that the test was so easy as to be meaningless. None the less, the math and science tests have been dropped as "too hard" :rolleyes: because of the number of people who fail them. Um, I know where these two students learned math and science, and they learned enough of both from their parents by playing around with it to pass those tests, somewhere rather before 9th grade. The only down side to that was having one kid's class test marked wrong for knowing how to actually solve a problem instead of apply a formula.

If I have a gripe about lack of repetition, there was not nearly enough practice in algebraic manipulation, not at all. That, however, is not taught by formula, nor by memorization, but rather by teaching the child to THINK, something you argue is not even necessary. Fortunately, both kids seem to have picked up a fair understanding of algebra, well, now, for one that includes abstract algebra and a lot of other things beyond that.

My goodness, what a disaster you would bring us to. Don't teach them to think? That is a recipe for ultimate, absolute catastrophe.I entirely agree with you. What's even worse? WA schools are better than California schools (where I grew up) by a long shot.

And have you SEEN the new math curriculum? What on earth are they teaching our children? Thank goodness my partner and I are smart enough, and educated enough, to fill in all the stuff that they're not covering (or worse, are teaching wrong). I'm not sure what I'm going to do when they get into the math I haven't had to think about in 15 years -- Private tutoring may be the only option.

I have a hard time understanding how anyone can possibly defend this system. Even the teachers, for the most part, aren't defending this system. My sister's long time boyfriend is (was) an english teacher for 8-12th grade, and he complained and complained that all he was allowed to do was teach to the graduation tests, and that even that was hard because most of his students didn't come into his classes with basic reading/writing skills.

My son's teachers have said pretty much straight out that because he's smart and actually has the basic skills down in his classes that he shouldn't expect any attention when he does have trouble because there are still so many children in his classes that are struggling to get up to even half his level that the teachers just don't have time for him.

I'm simply in awe of how pathetic this system is. It's underfunded, overloaded, and staffed with primarily with morons because many of the good teachers (you know, the ones who actually know what they're teaching and insist on teaching it properly) either cost too much to keep on staff, or are gotten rid of as "squeaky wheels". My son's middle school can't even afford a full set of new text books. The teacher has one set that are kept in the class room at all times, never sent home for studying out of, and she photocopies all the worksheet pages for her students.

It's appalling. And it's even more appalling that anyone could defend this as "good"...

[Nihilianth]

Note, I was responding to a very specific statement of yours. A statement that was absolute. All one needs to counter an absolute is one single example to the contrary.

So, people aren't allowed to point out problems without already having solutions for them? That's blatantly juvenile. This sort of over-emotional and totally illogical outburst really doesn't paint your views in a good light.

While you so arrogantly, ignorantly, and without support, made criticisms of the system, you failed to provide a better alternative. If the current system is so bad, surely there has to be a better solution? I don;t mean minor little tweaks here and there with any given curriculum. this occurs all the time. I mean, vastly different approaches to doing something completely different.



I also like how you're appealing to authority to defend yourself, all the while ignoring the fact that the authority you're appealing to is the exact group that I'm disputing the authority of. Circular logic much?

And you have provided no sources, no verifications....nothing...that shows the "authority" is going about things the wrong way. Furthermore, you have failed to provide a much better solution, backed up with child psychology, and ways of learning, and different learning techniques. So your "circular logic" claim of fallacy is a non-starter.

Teachers can't possibly be bad teachers because they say they're teaching the right way? Really? That's all you have to say?

Quote me that I have said anything of this sort. Otherwise, I expect this statement to be retracted.

Posts like yours are exactly why other posters in this thread, as well as myself, say the school systems are failing us. Young people are not being taught to think, reason, or otherwise use logic.

"And other posters?" You mean, you, jj, and DD? And DD hasn't said much in a long time, and has really toned down quite a bit from his first few posts.

And apparently you have failed to grasp the concept of "foundations." You have also placed the whole "fail to teach kids how to think, reason, and use logic" as a blanket statement from K all the way through post-doctorate degree course.

I have made it more than abundantly clear, that such blanket ways of teaching for all grade levels is the completely wrong way to go about it. There is a reason why I have divided up elementary school into k-3 or 4, from 5 and 6. If a school has up to 6th grade. There is a reason why junior high is split between elementary and high school. There is a reason why high school starts in 9th and ends in 12th. There is a reason why different university degrees range from associates all the way up to post-doctorate in two-year increments.

There is also a reason why elementary school uses the term "ELEMENTARY" in it's way of defining a certain age group.

[tesscaline]

While you so arrogantly, ignorantly, and without support, made criticisms of the system, you failed to provide a better alternative. If the current system is so bad, surely there has to be a better solution? I don;t mean minor little tweaks here and there with any given curriculum. this occurs all the time. I mean, vastly different approaches to doing something completely different.
Excuse me? I have detailed for you my direct experiences with the system. To rebut your asinine statement that "the only way children learn contempt for the system is from their parents". I'm sorry that you can't handle being wrong. That's really not my problem.

And you have provided no sources, no verifications....nothing...that shows the "authority" is going about things the wrong way. Furthermore, you have failed to provide a much better solution, backed up with child psychology, and ways of learning, and different learning techniques. So your "circular logic" claim of fallacy is a non-starter.I don't need to propose a solution for your logic to be circular. What nonsense are you spewing? The two things are entirely unrelated. Your logic is failing you again.

Quote me that I have said anything of this sort. Otherwise, I expect this statement to be retracted.I won't retract anything, as I'm not attributing a quote to you, I'm paraphrasing your arguments in this thread. Summarizing them. You are familiar with the concept, right? Or did they fail to teach you that in school too?

"And other posters?" You mean, you, jj, and DD? And DD hasn't said much in a long time, and has really toned down quite a bit from his first few posts. I see more than just those two people who are calling you on your nonsense. But hey, you're the one getting trolled and not even realizing it, so maybe we shouldn't rely on your perceptions too much.

And apparently you have failed to grasp the concept of "foundations." You have also placed the whole "fail to teach kids how to think, reason, and use logic" as a blanket statement from K all the way through post-doctorate degree course.LOL. I've failed to grasp? When you obviously don't even understand what you, yourself, are saying? Right.

I have made it more than abundantly clear, that such blanket ways of teaching for all grade levels is the completely wrong way to go about it. There is a reason why I have divided up elementary school into k-3 or 4, from 5 and 6. If a school has up to 6th grade. There is a reason why junior high is split between elementary and high school. There is a reason why high school starts in 9th and ends in 12th. There is a reason why different university degrees range from associates all the way up to post-doctorate in two-year increments.

There is also a reason why elementary school uses the term "ELEMENTARY" in it's way of defining a certain age group.You've made nothing abundantly clear, other than that your arguments are incoherent, circular, fallacious, and nonsensical.

[Nihilianth]

See, NOW you have finally hit on some specifics, most of which I might actually agree with you one!

So, let's take this point-by-point, shall we? Hopefully you learn something about me, before making any other uninformed blanket statements that are completely unsupported. But most of the things you did hit on are curriculum-specific which can be tweaked, or thrown out altogether easily enough.

I entirely agree with you. What's even worse? WA schools are better than California schools (where I grew up) by a long shot.

One of the reasons why teachers in general are calling for standardization on a national level. This is already a well-known problem, and one in which we are moving towards as we speak.

And have you SEEN the new math curriculum? What on earth are they teaching our children? Thank goodness my partner and I are smart enough, and educated enough, to fill in all the stuff that they're not covering (or worse, are teaching wrong). I'm not sure what I'm going to do when they get into the math I haven't had to think about in 15 years -- Private tutoring may be the only option.

I have seen some of the strange, and off-the-wall ways in which they are teaching math. I agree with you here as well. I especially cannot stand how the really idiotic techniques of teaching Algebra. It looks like foreign crap to me, that someone just made up on their own. I was lucky enough to have a great teacher in 7th grade when I was learning Algebra. (Went to private school. We were ahead of most public schools.)

I have a hard time understanding how anyone can possibly defend this system. Even the teachers, for the most part, aren't defending this system. My sister's long time boyfriend is (was) an english teacher for 8-12th grade, and he complained and complained that all he was allowed to do was teach to the graduation tests, and that even that was hard because most of his students didn't come into his classes with basic reading/writing skills.

EXACTLY why I have been on about the true importance of reading and writing starting in the first grade! But people would must rather take away our already incredibly limited time, to teach higher-level skill sets, such as "critical and logical thinking."

The problem, and for fear of repeating this later in this post, is that teachers have to make do with what we are dealt from society. We just do not have the time, money, or resources available to cover every single aspect of every single subject, and still get the kids to be able to move on to the next level. There are bound to be major holes and gaps in their education. Only thing I can suggest, and one that I have been espousing in several education threads, is that parents are just as important....probably even more so...as the teachers and school in educating their children. I mean, my god! Kids get three whole months of vacation off every summer, and they come back at the beginning of the school year two to three months behind where they were when we left off with them. Parents just do not take the initiative to utilize this time in at least maintaining the reading/writing/math levels that we left them in three months earlier.

And society would rather take away money from schools that are actually struggling, and award those monies to schools that are not! I mean, SERIOUSLY! One of my biggest pet-peeves from the Bush administration was that part of the No Child Left Behind act. It was idiotic in the extreme.

My son's teachers have said pretty much straight out that because he's smart and actually has the basic skills down in his classes that he shouldn't expect any attention when he does have trouble because there are still so many children in his classes that are struggling to get up to even half his level that the teachers just don't have time for him.

Yes. This is true. This is not a choice the teacher has. Not at all. The teacher must conform to NCLB, or risk losing their jobs. This in no way implies that the teacher is incompetent. Regardless, I think this is a commonly-practiced thing anyway. Teachers would much rather use their limited time and resources in helping the children that need it most.

I had an old DOS game called "Global Dillemma: Guns or Butter." This is exactly the scenario I see in the classroom. It is a dillemma. One that is dealt to us teachers. The biggest restriction is on time. Nothing anyone can do about time. Humans cannot pass legislation to magically make the day longer, and make it possible for humans to need less sleep, less time for eating, and less time for playing.

Any way, the point of t he game, is to build up an army and invade provinces. You have a very limited number and amount of resources. You must dedicate those resources to either population growth, or military growth. Obviously, you have to try to balance the two as much as possible. If you do not grow enough food and instead build weapons, your people starve, and your military shrinks, as your industrial capacity in turn shrinks. Concentrate too much on food production and population growth, your ass is getting invaded, shrinking population and industrial production anyway.

It's like that in the classroom between the more advanced kids, and the slower ones. We would love to help the fast kids as much as the slower ones, but time and resources just simply do not allow us to do so. The best we can hope to do, is to balance the needs of each child as much as is feasibly possible. And we have between 20 and 30 students in an average classroom. Not an easy task whatsoever!

I'm simply in awe of how pathetic this system is. It's underfunded, overloaded, and staffed with primarily with morons because many of the good teachers (you know, the ones who actually know what they're teaching and insist on teaching it properly) either cost too much to keep on staff, or are gotten rid of as "squeaky wheels". My son's middle school can't even afford a full set of new text books. The teacher has one set that are kept in the class room at all times, never sent home for studying out of, and she photocopies all the worksheet pages for her students.

This is my big issue with you. Calling teachers who probably have the most important job in all of society, and put in many more hours than most other professions "morons." Teaching is one of the most "ungrateful" professions possible. And yet, it is THE most important profession in society. Hands down. Education is the most important aspect in society! Parents going around calling teachers "morons" only makes conditions much worse. I mean, even if they were compensated as much as other professions, who wants to go into teaching, if there is no appreciation for such a difficult job?

In any case, the underfunded part I completely agree! But this is one argument that is not a huge problem of the system, and one which can easily be fixed, if those in society just understood the vast importance of an advanced education system. Instead, we get crap legislation passed such as No Child Left Behind which takes away the already minuscule resources from under performing schools and gives them to high-performing schools. We have a society that would rather build bombs than build minds. We have people bitch and complain about taxes, and yet, the government cannot seem to disperse extra spending into education.

My personal solution: Our society needs a real wake-up call. But that is not going to happen. In the meantime, we do what we can with what we have. With what society allows us to have.

It's appalling. And it's even more appalling that anyone could defend this as "good"...

It's as good as it's going to get with what we have. Which is not much. It would seem that your issue is not with the education system, but rather with society.

[Nihilianth]

Excuse me? I have detailed for you my direct experiences with the system. To rebut your asinine statement that "the only way children learn contempt for the system is from their parents". I'm sorry that you can't handle being wrong. That's really not my problem.

Not my problem you cannot seem to read, or at least apparently skip over what is being said. But you appear to be making it my problem.




I don't need to propose a solution for your logic to be circular. What nonsense are you spewing? The two things are entirely unrelated. Your logic is failing you again.

Yes. You do. I have made a claim to respecting authority. You have made the claim against all the conventions of the authority. I have provided evidence for my support for said authority. That is not "circular logic." Especially in light of the fact, that you have failed to provide a solution, or even at least evidence for your claims.





I won't retract anything, as I'm not attributing a quote to you, I'm paraphrasing your arguments in this thread. Summarizing them. You are familiar with the concept, right? Or did they fail to teach you that in school too?

Too bad you didn;t paraphrase anything. This is what you said:

Teachers can't possibly be bad teachers because they say they're teaching the right way? Really? That's all you have to say?

I have said nothing of the sort. Nor have I implied anything close to such a specific thing you made the claim that I said. You have completely made up a total ******** lie. And unless you either retract the statement, or provide an exact quote, I will call you a liar from now on, and consider you to be one.




I see more than just those two people who are calling you on your nonsense. But hey, you're the one getting trolled and not even realizing it, so maybe we shouldn't rely on your perceptions too much.

Sources? Quotes? You sure as hell love to make claims without any support whatsoever. I only see you, DD, and jj. Maybe one or two other people earlier in the thread, but they were probably dealt with pretty handily.



LOL. I've failed to grasp? When you obviously don't even understand what you, yourself, are saying? Right.

Yes. Because I have talked at length about foundations, and the importance of them. I have given a rather lengthy example of building a house compared to teaching a child. You either totally, and completely ignored that part of the conversation, or else you failed to grasp what I was talking about.


You've made nothing abundantly clear, other than that your arguments are incoherent, circular, fallacious, and nonsensical.

This is a childish statement to end a post in. I am not even going to bother repeating exactly what you just said here in reverse.

[Nihilianth]

dola,

As for the "circular logic" fallacy that has been claimed in this thread, I would like to reiterate something for a moment.

I have made a claim to citing authority, and using authority as a basis of my argument. (In this case, "authority" referring to those who are experts in the field of child psychology, early childhood development, and education.)

tesscaline makes the claim that "authority is wrong, and the education system is total crap," without ever providing any arguments, rebuttals, evidence, or solutions to what he deems is a "problem."

My further claim to citing authority is therefore a circular logic fallacy. Huh? :confused:

So, let's take the "crappiness" of education for a moment here. Let's say he is right, and my further claims to citing his rejection of authority as a proper source, and therefore is a circular logic fallacy. The further problem with this claim, is that I had asked for a "better solution" than the one we currently utilize. Basically, I would like to see his idea of a better approach to educating children. He tells me he doesn't have to provide me with a solution, because I used circular logic.

Well, I see a major problem with this. His claim that the system is crap, but failing to provide a a different approach to education. If there isn't a better, or even a different, approach to educating someone, then obviously the system cannot be "crappy," because there is no other solution to compare it to. It is the "only" solution.

That's like a layman telling car companies there is a better approach to building a vehicle, because the current methods used are "crappy." When asked for a solution, they say they don't have to provide one, because appealing to authority is a "circular fallacy." But you make the claim that there is a better approach. Therefore, you should be able to answer the question of "what approach/solution do you have" quite readily. Right?

[tesscaline]

See, NOW you have finally hit on some specifics, most of which I might actually agree with you one!*facepalm* You're being inconsistent again. None of this is different than what I've been complaining about... But yet, I'm not allowed to complain unless I have a solution? Please get your ducks in a row. Please.

EXACTLY why I have been on about the true importance of reading and writing starting in the first grade! But people would must rather take away our already incredibly limited time, to teach higher-level skill sets, such as "critical and logical thinking." And you're failing to understand, still. The system is FAILING in teaching reading and writing skills at the levels they are supposed to be taught at. Thus, when it comes time to start teaching the "higher level" (which, I'm sorry, I do not agree with you on -- critical and logical thinking can be started extremely young even with something as simple as asking "why do you think that?") they're unable to. I'm not talking about 2nd graders being unable to read or write. I'm talking about 6th graders, 7th graders, high school students. The system allows these children to PASS, despite their obvious inability to master basic fundamentals. That's a problem with the system. A HUGE problem with the system.

The problem, and for fear of repeating this later in this post, is that teachers have to make do with what we are dealt from society. We just do not have the time, money, or resources available to cover every single aspect of every single subject, and still get the kids to be able to move on to the next level. There are bound to be major holes and gaps in their education. Only thing I can suggest, and one that I have been espousing in several education threads, is that parents are just as important....probably even more so...as the teachers and school in educating their children. I mean, my god! Kids get three whole months of vacation off every summer, and they come back at the beginning of the school year two to three months behind where they were when we left off with them. Parents just do not take the initiative to utilize this time in at least maintaining the reading/writing/math levels that we left them in three months earlier.I'm sorry, but you insisting that summer vacation is to blame simply isn't going to cut it. Provide some evidence that all our ills are caused by a 3 month vacation, or shut up about it already. What I see, is that children are not being taught to think, to explore, to challenge themselves, whereas they used to be taught those things. Instead of teaching a child to actually understand subject matter, children are being told to just memorize what they're given and ask no questions. In fact, this is such a widespread phenomenon that I almost cried with joy when my son's social studies teacher this year proclaimed at back to school night that his philosophy on teaching was to get his students to think about what they're learning by asking them "why?" all the time.

You seem to think that it's impossible for a teacher to teach fundamentals and teach thinking at the same time, that teachers have to choose between the two. I say you're wrong. I say you're wrong because I was taught both simultaneously, my sister was taught both simultaneously, my boyfriend was taught both simultaneously, my father was, his sisters were, my mother was...

And society would rather take away money from schools that are actually struggling, and award those monies to schools that are not! I mean, SERIOUSLY! One of my biggest pet-peeves from the Bush administration was that part of the No Child Left Behind act. It was idiotic in the extreme.I agree with this. That act was beyond stupid.

Yes. This is true. This is not a choice the teacher has. Not at all. The teacher must conform to NCLB, or risk losing their jobs. This in no way implies that the teacher is incompetent. Regardless, I think this is a commonly-practiced thing anyway. Teachers would much rather use their limited time and resources in helping the children that need it most. I didn't say it says the teacher is incompetent. What it says about the system, however, is that the system is broken. If there are children who's skills don't even meet remedial levels, then they shouldn't have gotten to that grade in the first place. Why are these children being passed? Why are schools letting them proceed to higher grades when they haven't learned the subject matter? These administrative decisions (the "children aren't allowed to fail at anything" decisions) are wasting our teachers time and resources. Do you not see that?

I had an old DOS game called "Global Dillemma: Guns or Butter." This is exactly the scenario I see in the classroom. It is a dillemma. One that is dealt to us teachers. The biggest restriction is on time. Nothing anyone can do about time. Humans cannot pass legislation to magically make the day longer, and make it possible for humans to need less sleep, less time for eating, and less time for playing.

Any way, the point of t he game, is to build up an army and invade provinces. You have a very limited number and amount of resources. You must dedicate those resources to either population growth, or military growth. Obviously, you have to try to balance the two as much as possible. If you do not grow enough food and instead build weapons, your people starve, and your military shrinks, as your industrial capacity in turn shrinks. Concentrate too much on food production and population growth, your ass is getting invaded, shrinking population and industrial production anyway.

It's like that in the classroom between the more advanced kids, and the slower ones. We would love to help the fast kids as much as the slower ones, but time and resources just simply do not allow us to do so. The best we can hope to do, is to balance the needs of each child as much as is feasibly possible. And we have between 20 and 30 students in an average classroom. Not an easy task whatsoever!Again. This is why the system is broken.

This is my big issue with you. Calling teachers who probably have the most important job in all of society, and put in many more hours than most other professions "morons." Teaching is one of the most "ungrateful" professions possible. And yet, it is THE most important profession in society. Hands down. Education is the most important aspect in society! Parents going around calling teachers "morons" only makes conditions much worse. I mean, even if they were compensated as much as other professions, who wants to go into teaching, if there is no appreciation for such a difficult job? I'm sorry, but any teacher who responds to my complaint that she's teaching my child blatantly incorrect information with "I just teach what the manual says to" is a moron.

Teachers are not gods just because their jobs are hard. They do not deserve my worship or blind faith just because their jobs are hard. I will not give shoddy performance a pass just because "the job is hard". Especially when it comes to "the most important profession in society". In fact, seeing as it's the most important profession (to quote you), I'm going to hold them to a higher standard.

My father is a teacher (as I mentioned earlier). He is not a moron. He actually teaches his students. He cares that what he teaches his students is true and correct. He does it in a way in which it is interesting, and engaging, and challenges them appropriately. I've had other teachers who met this caliber of performance. They were amazing awesome great teachers, and also not morons.

But then, there are morons. The HS geometry teacher who couldn't even teach out of the book correctly and was constantly in need of correction by his own students, who retaliated for being called on his mistakes by giving those students lower grades than they deserved, comes to mind. The HS trigonometry teacher who couldn't explain a concept more than one way, ever, no matter how many times people said "hey, I'm having trouble understanding that, can you explain it a different way", because he'd memorized his lesson plan 20 years ago and couldn't be bothered to break from his own rote memorization, also comes to mind.

My son's 3rd grade teacher (the "I just teach what the manual says to" genius) also comes to mind. So do the vast majority of the teachers that I've seen my son have (his social studies teacher aside -- I adore that guy). As well as the vast majority of teachers that other teachers I know interact with (the stories I hear... It's disheartening).

It's as good as it's going to get with what we have. Which is not much. It would seem that your issue is not with the education system, but rather with society.While, yes, I do have issues with society... No, I have serious issues with the education system as a specific subset of that society. You seem to think that the two are separate beasts. However, our education system is PART of society. And in specific, I do have issues with said education system.

You want a solution? Here's one. Stop passing children who don't actually learn the subject matter. Start giving out failing grades again.

[tesscaline]

Not my problem you cannot seem to read, or at least apparently skip over what is being said. But you appear to be making it my problem.You're the one making it out that my comments are applicable to anything other than the exact passage I quoted.

Yes. You do. I have made a claim to respecting authority. You have made the claim against all the conventions of the authority. I have provided evidence for my support for said authority. That is not "circular logic." Especially in light of the fact, that you have failed to provide a solution, or even at least evidence for your claims.No. You don't seem to understand. Me failing to provide a solution does not make your logic linear. The two are totally unrelated. You can continue claiming whatever you like, but it does not change that fact.

Too bad you didn;t paraphrase anything. This is what you said:Yes, I did. Look up the meaning of the word paraphrase.

I have said nothing of the sort. Nor have I implied anything close to such a specific thing you made the claim that I said. You have completely made up a total ******** lie. And unless you either retract the statement, or provide an exact quote, I will call you a liar from now on, and consider you to be one.That's exactly what you've implied. You can disagree with me, but your own posts are right there as proof.

Sources? Quotes? You sure as hell love to make claims without any support whatsoever. I only see you, DD, and jj. Maybe one or two other people earlier in the thread, but they were probably dealt with pretty handily.Dealt with? Seriously? Just because someone stops posting, that doesn't mean they've suddenly come around and agreed with you. The posts in this thread are there for you to read.

Yes. Because I have talked at length about foundations, and the importance of them. I have given a rather lengthy example of building a house compared to teaching a child. You either totally, and completely ignored that part of the conversation, or else you failed to grasp what I was talking about.Again, my post was in reply to what I quoted. You can go back and look at what I quoted, if you can't remember what you said. I don't know why you insist on taking my reply to you out of context, but you are, and frankly, I'm tired of explaining how the whole "quote and reply" thing works.

This is a childish statement to end a post in. I am not even going to bother repeating exactly what you just said here in reverse.I'm not the one posting nonsensical arguments. But okay.

dola,Who?

As for the "circular logic" fallacy that has been claimed in this thread, I would like to reiterate something for a moment.

I have made a claim to citing authority, and using authority as a basis of my argument. (In this case, "authority" referring to those who are experts in the field of child psychology, early childhood development, and education.)

tesscaline makes the claim that "authority is wrong, and the education system is total crap," without ever providing any arguments, rebuttals, evidence, or solutions to what he deems is a "problem."

My further claim to citing authority is therefore a circular logic fallacy. Huh? :confused:

So, let's take the "crappiness" of education for a moment here. Let's say he is right, and my further claims to citing his rejection of authority as a proper source, and therefore is a circular logic fallacy. The further problem with this claim, is that I had asked for a "better solution" than the one we currently utilize. Basically, I would like to see his idea of a better approach to educating children. He tells me he doesn't have to provide me with a solution, because I used circular logic.

Well, I see a major problem with this. His claim that the system is crap, but failing to provide a a different approach to education. If there isn't a better, or even a different, approach to educating someone, then obviously the system cannot be "crappy," because there is no other solution to compare it to. It is the "only" solution.

That's like a layman telling car companies there is a better approach to building a vehicle, because the current methods used are "crappy." When asked for a solution, they say they don't have to provide one, because appealing to authority is a "circular fallacy." But you make the claim that there is a better approach. Therefore, you should be able to answer the question of "what approach/solution do you have" quite readily. Right?I'm going to reply to this entire disjointed tirade without breaking the quotes.

1) My statements about the school system were made in regards to a very specific statement from you. Namely one that ONLY parents can teach their children contempt for the school system.

2) You citing child psychology about how children learn is pretty irrelevant to the issues I've complained about, so I really don't see how you could be referring to them as "authority" to back up your rebuttal to my dispute of your statement. Are you saying that those authorities agree with your statement that "only parents" can teach children contempt for the school system? If so, cite something.

3) You insist that I must provide a solution to the problems I point out in order for my commentary to be valid. This is logically fallacious. Whether or not I can personally provide a solution for a problem does not change whether or not said problem exists, or whether or not I'm right about that problem. I don't know why you seem to think otherwise.

4) You've so entirely convoluted everything said in this thread that I don't even think you really know what you're saying anymore. You've conflated separate sets of arguments, and warped what other people have said (myself included) so badly as to make it virtually unrecognizable.

5) I will recap the conversation you're whining about (and ranting and throwing a temper tantrum like a 5 year old and talking to non-existent persons about) for you:

You: Children will only learn "contempt" of the system, if the parents teach it to them, if you take the method DD explained in his very first post in this whole thread.
Me: That's not true, I learned contempt other ways entirely.
You: You're wrong because you're not proposing a solution, and I'm going to appeal to the authority of teachers and school administrators.
Me: Um... What? That's nonsense.
You: You're a liar.
Me: Riiiiiight...

[jj]

And you have provided no sources, no verifications....nothing...that shows the "authority" is going about things the wrong way.

One might point out that you have done the same, but in fact, what you say is not true, but you have yet to understand the issue of sources and authority in this matter.

Yes. You do. I have made a claim to respecting authority. You have made the claim against all the conventions of the authority.

Once again, you make assert a negative. "against all the conventions" is something that you must prove, and again, you have taken a position which is logically unprovable.

The fact that others disagree with you does not mean that they are confused, uninformed, not istening, or wrong, it simply means that they disagree with you. Furthermore, the fact that someone disputes a specific point does not mean that they have made a case "against all the conventions of the authority", an authority, I might point out, that is one of many authorities in this matter.

[Dorian Gray]

lol, well, you do have a point there! lol. I think the biggest problem with the system is the schedule. But the kids and the parents (mostly the parents) contribute even more to the problems in education in this country. Okay, how can you think the schedule is the biggest problem with the system, if you think the kids and parents contribute even more to the problems? That means the schedule isn't the biggest problem! The kids and parents are!

Comparison fail.

Did I mention that in this thread, or was that another thread? I know I mentioned somewhere that the parents are a major part of the problem. Mostly because they do not take the responsibility of having and raising kids properly, and come in and blame the teachers and the system on everything, rather than the laziness of their own kids, and poor parenting skill on their part. The first time you mentioned it was above. Your second sentence is basically plagiarism of MY point!

Originality fail.

But that doesn't mean that there are not problems in the system as well. I just happen to think those are quite minor in comparison to the parents and kids. I just think the biggest problem in schools is #1, the schedule. And #2, bullying, and 3. lack of security system. #s 1 and 3 are easily rectified. And number 3 would help reduce the incidents of bullying. At least on school grounds. Again, you say problems in the system (the schedule, summer vacation) are minor in comparison to the parents and kids, and THEN rank the schedule as number 1 and don't rank parents and kids at all!

Inclusion fail.
Continuity fail.
Comparison fail, part 2.

[Dorian Gray]

Doesn't the subject of the article play a role? What if they had assigned quantum mechanics or relativity? How about supply side economics? Of course that would be ridiculous. Do you know anything about Langston Hughes and his poetry? It's impossible for a 3rd grader to understand the significance of his poetry because they don't have the life experience.

Although it was tempting to suggest to him that he ask his teacher what "homoerotic" meant.






So, you give them an assignment, and no matter what they do, you tell them it's great?

My big objection to all of this is that these "art projects" are actually science or social studies assignments, but there is precious little science or social studies involved, but rather some sort of "creative use of materials" (part of his grade for building the musk ox in science class) or some sort of "presentation skills". Meanwhile, the kid can't find France on a map. That is something he's fully capable of learning, but they haven't bothered teaching it to him.




Would you teach algebra in the third grade? Calculus in fifth? How about the laws of motion, in numeric form in the fourth grade? Perhaps the theory of Communism in fifth grade social studies?

Of course you wouldn't. Their brains haven't reached that point where they can comprehend that stuff.

Likewise their maturity level within their social interactions isn't at a level where they can effectively work on the sort of team projects that they are asked to work on. Kids don't do that sort of thing very well, and the efforts to push it are largely wasted. It ends up being an utter waste of time when they could be learning to find France on a map.

I ask you again, in a non-hypothetical manner, why aren't there any eleven year old children working in a typical office? What's up with that? Could it be that some of the assignments given to these eleven year old kids just might not be age appropriate? Trying to turn kids into office workers is wasted effort. They'll get there, but not until at least puberty.

Wrong. Kids aren't taught algebra in the 3rd grade because they don't have the basic math foundation, plus geometry, fractions, decimals, negative numbers, etc. Unlike algebra and all the other stuff you mentioned, kids work in groups from day one. Basic group skills are recess, lunch, lining up, getting on the bus, playing sports, etc. There is no reason why they shouldn't learn how to work with other children, and learning to function in a group environment is actually a skill that is useful in virtually every profession later in life.

There aren't eleven year olds working as accountants either. If I'm you, I use this to argue that they shouldn't be taught math. There aren't eleven year olds working as travel agents, tourism board members, political scientists, historians, etc., either. If I'm you, I use this to argue that they shouldn't be taught geography. Is this really what you're saying?

[Dorian Gray]

The present system is turning out kids much worse in math and science than the system of a generation ago. The system is not in a "problem" state, it is in a state of absolute, catastrophic failure.

Excessive homework is one of the most obvious symptoms of this abject, catastrophic failure.
Disagree. I had homework when I was a kid just like kids of today. However, when I was a kid, there were 4 channels on television. No cable, no cell phones, no video games, no home computers, no internet, no VCRs (at first), no MP3 players, no DVDs, no digital cameras, no texting, no Twitter, no Facebook, no chat..... and so on through the umpteen different distractions kids have today.

THAT is the problem, not excessive homework or the flippin summer vacation.

[Dorian Gray]

One might point out that you have done the same, but in fact, what you say is not true, but you have yet to understand the issue of sources and authority in this matter.



Once again, you make assert a negative. "against all the conventions" is something that you must prove, and again, you have taken a position which is logically unprovable.

The fact that others disagree with you does not mean that they are confused, uninformed, not istening, or wrong, it simply means that they disagree with you. Furthermore, the fact that someone disputes a specific point does not mean that they have made a case "against all the conventions of the authority", an authority, I might point out, that is one of many authorities in this matter.
"You can't prove a negative" is a myth. Prove you're not an onion. I bet you can do that. Thus, you have proven a negative. I also bet you can come up with thousands of examples just like this.

[Meadmaker]

Wrong. Kids aren't taught algebra in the 3rd grade because they don't have the basic math foundation,

I think you are wrong. I think the reason they don't learn algebra is that it requires a degree of abstract thinking and symbolic manipulation that is beyond the capacity of the average eight year old brain.

If I'm you, I use this to argue that they shouldn't be taught math.

No, if you are me, you use this to argue that eleven year olds shouldn't be taught accounting. Ditto for your other points.

[Meadmaker]

OH! Ok. Well then. You're stance is much clearer, and makes much more sense now. I do wholeheartedly agree here! If there is very little structure/supervision in the classroom, then certainly "group projects" such as this is a useless waste of time.


And that's what I see at his school. Like "critical thinking", it would be wonderful if we could teach "teamwork" to kids. In truth, both can be taught, and both can be taught at any age from the time kids start attending school. However, both must be taught in a certain way and using up a limited amount of time, because you aren't going to get very far teaching it to an eight year old.

What I see is assignments that try to mimic the workplace, and I don't think it's appropriate.

The teacher that I think does the best in this regard is actually his music teacher. She treats her subject seriously, instead of just as a goof off period to sing songs. Her group assignements, even that class has them, are always supervised. The most impressive thing she does is puts on two musicals per year, and I'm really impressed with the results. My kid is on the tech crew, and she seems to have an instinct for giving them just the right amount of free rein to learn some responsibility, which retaining just the right amount of control so they can actually figure out when to turn on the right microphones and run the light boards. It's pretty impressive for a group whose oldest members are in the eighth grade.





I am slightly unclear as to what you mean by "office-style interaction." The vast majority of professions all have the same style interactions.

Ones that typically happen in office buildings. Most "professions" do have that style of interaction, but a lot of "jobs" don't.

What I mean is project-oriented tasks where teams of people get together, where each person has a role, where there are several different roles, and where someone coordinates all of the individual activities and ensures that at the end a useful result will be accomplished. That's a fairly sophisticated level of interaction, and it won't happen if you throw four eleven year old boys in a room and tell them to make a poster.

The key is that the kids aren't going to have the sophistication to break a project into separate tasks, assign those tasks appropriately to individuals, and track progress on those tasks and shift resources where necessary to get the task done, all with miminmal supervision. That's what I see happening at my kid's school, and it doesn't work and it wastes time.

[Nihilianth]

ok, now Tesscaline or whatever his name is, has proven to be a complete lying ass troll. I am now bringing out the big guns, and using Microsoft word to prove just how much of a lying troll this character is. I will also lay to rest the whole "summer vacation" debate as well.

Prepare yourself to be destroyed.

ETA: coming up sometime tomorrow. :D Unless you want to amend ANYTHING at all in your posts. You shall have up to 24 hours or so in order to do so. So i highly suggest you go back through and re-read everything in this thread.

(Quick question to those who know about this forum: If someone makes an edit in their own post, will those edits also show up in quoted posts? I ask this, so as not to be cheated for anything before post number 241.)

[quixotecoyote]

ok, now Tesscaline or whatever his name is, has proven to be a complete lying ass troll. I am now bringing out the big guns, and using Microsoft word to prove just how much of a lying troll this character is. I will also lay to rest the whole "summer vacation" debate as well.

Prepare yourself to be destroyed.

ETA: coming up sometime tomorrow. :D Unless you want to amend ANYTHING at all in your posts. You shall have up to 24 hours or so in order to do so. So i highly suggest you go back through and re-read everything in this thread.

(Quick question to those who know about this forum: If someone makes an edit in their own post, will those edits also show up in quoted posts? I ask this, so as not to be cheated for anything before post number 241.)

Oh the drama. <fetches the fainting couch>

[not daSkeptic]

:popcorn1

[Nosi]

wrong, every child should be in military school until 18. no exceptions.

And the children with disabilities?

[jhunter1163]

Address the argument, not the arguer, and be civil and polite.

[Nosi]

y2hbt, as in trolled, silly goose...... I even said already. Do make sure lil' Johnny reports to revelry by 0:500.....

Oh my...talk of homework brings out the bratty trolling no? :p

[jj]

"You can't prove a negative" is a myth. Prove you're not an onion. I bet you can do that. Thus, you have proven a negative. I also bet you can come up with thousands of examples just like this.

Perhaps before you chime in you should learn what "proving a negative" means.

As a subtle hint, it is NOT what you seem to think it is, and no, you can NOT prove a negative. What you have just made is a form of positive assertion.

[jj]

ok, now Tesscaline or whatever his name is, has proven to be a complete lying ass troll. I am now bringing out the big guns, and using Microsoft word to prove just how much of a lying troll this character is. I will also lay to rest the whole "summer vacation" debate as well.

Nothing, and I mean NOTHING that you type would show Tess to be either a liar or a troll.

Only what she says might show that, and to date, she has been consistant, as compared to your repeated retreats from your own sweeping claims of the negative, offered, I suspect, due to your failure to recognize that you are using the fallacy of the excluded middle.

[Meadmaker]

y2hbt, as in trolled, silly goose...... I even said already. Do make sure lil' Johnny reports to revelry by 0:500.....

Revelry at 0500????

Even as a teenager we didn't start partying until noon. How the heck are the kids going to get any studying done?

I did occasionally end revelry around 0500, but I don't think I ever started it at that time.

[TragicMonkey]

I'm still wondering how Microsoft Word can be utilized as a powerful tool of debatery. I guess I missed that lesson because I was busy doing all that useful homework during summer vacation.

[Mobyseven]

Perhaps before you chime in you should learn what "proving a negative" means.

As a subtle hint, it is NOT what you seem to think it is, and no, you can NOT prove a negative. What you have just made is a form of positive assertion.

If you're going to be arrogant, it's best to be correct. Incidentally, you're not.

First off, "Prove you're not an onion," seems like a perfectly legitimate 'negative' statement to me; it certainly stands in stark contrast to the positive claim, "you are an onion." So there's that.

Secondly, as mentioned, there are many perfectly legitimate negative statements that I can prove: "There are no monsters in my closet," for example. At the same time, there are many positive statements that we can't prove (c.f. negated existential quantifiers and universal quantifiers, both of which require only a single counter-example to disprove, but much more information to confirm).

The problem largely comes down to how well defined and specific the question is; some of the most common examples of impossible/impractical to prove statements are negative claims, but not all. And not all negative claims are impossible to prove.

In short: yes, "You can't prove a negative" is often convenient shorthand to use. But if someone disputes your use in a particular situation, it'd be best to back it up with a clear, reasoned argument; acting like a jerk and misstating that a useful heuristic is actually an ironclad rule is unlikely to score you points (even among people who might see some validity to your point of view).

[ZirconBlue]

Secondly, as mentioned, there are many perfectly legitimate negative statements that I can prove: "There are no monsters in my closet," for example.

Isn't it more accurate to say that you can't prove a universal negative? You can prove that there are no monsters in your closet, but you can't prove that there are no monsters anywhere.

[Mobyseven]

Isn't it more accurate to say that you can't prove a universal negative? You can prove that there are no monsters in your closet, but you can't prove that there are no monsters anywhere.

Sure (well, not directly -- perhaps sometimes indirectly): hence my point that it largely comes down to how well posed and specified the problem is.

My reading of this situation, however, is that the applicability of the heuristic to this case is being questioned. Rather than then justify its use, it was simply asserted that "you can't prove a negative" is a universal truth, and that the specific example given was for some unexplained reason not actually a case of proving a negative at all (though it was -- just an extremely well specified one). Hence the rant.

That reason is actually why I drew the comparison between the universal quantifier and the negated existential quantifier ('there does not exist an x such that A' is equiv. to 'for all x it is not the case that A').

[mikeyx]

Address the argument, not the arguer, and be civil and polite.

I did:

Homeschooling, Military School and Clown College, three very viable options for creatively screwing up kids that will only end up screwing themselves up anyway.

[mikeyx]

Oh my...talk of homework brings out the bratty trolling no? :p

It's about time I got some appreciation around here.

[jj]

Isn't it more accurate to say that you can't prove a universal negative? You can prove that there are no monsters in your closet, but you can't prove that there are no monsters anywhere.

You're starting to demonstrate the difference between proving a negative, and proving a specific, positive statement of nonexistance.

I'm not sure what you're responding to, however. As is evident to the casual reader, Nihilanth had made several universal negative statements, and as such, my reply is clearly and obviously in that specific context. Introducing comments out of context is simply a kind of disputatious derailment, which it appears you've been led into responding to. Note, that's not particularly a personal complaint, you aren't the person extracting a statement from context.

[ZirconBlue]

You're starting to demonstrate the difference between proving a negative, and proving a specific, positive statement of nonexistance.

I'm not sure what you're responding to, however. As is evident to the casual reader, Nihilanth had made several universal negative statements, and as such, my reply is clearly and obviously in that specific context. Introducing comments out of context is simply a kind of disputatious derailment, which it appears you've been led into responding to. Note, that's not particularly a personal complaint, you aren't the person extracting a statement from context.


I was responding to the post I quoted. I'm not really reading Nihilianth's post anymore.

[jj]

Disagree. I had homework when I was a kid just like kids of today. However, when I was a kid, there were 4 channels on television. No cable, no cell phones, no video games, no home computers, no internet, no VCRs (at first), no MP3 players, no DVDs, no digital cameras, no texting, no Twitter, no Facebook, no chat..... and so on through the umpteen different distractions kids have today.

THAT is the problem, not excessive homework or the flippin summer vacation.

Context failure, sorry.

So, we didn't have the touch football game in the street every night, bicycle rides to wherever, Monopoly, Risk, Scrabble, etc, to play back then?

The distractions have changed, that's all.

What's more, I had about 1/5th the homework that my kids had in Jr. High and High School. Most of it was actually something that forced me to organize thoughts and learn from it, too. This is a far cry from "write me a paragraph that makes the following points (list of required points to be made given)". The first requires one to figure out what points to make, for instance, the second forces a particular view on the writing, and allows no other. This is a deeply offensive thing on many levels. What's more, when there are also references given for the specific points, there is nothing left but robotic regurgitation. No, this wasn't a speech class or a debate class, it was a history class. (Note, in debate, one might use this tactic in order to teach how to debate dispassionately, among other things, but that wasn't the order of the day here, THIS was "this is what the test requires you to say". Waste of time and effort.)

My objection is not to all homework, it is to lengthy homework that has no learning value, and that only teaches the student that the system has no respect for the student.

Much like, it seems, the lack of respect shown by some posters here to the student.

[not daSkeptic]

Isn't it more accurate to say that you can't prove a universal negative?

It is my understanding that no universal can be proved, positive or negative. One cannot prove anything about an unbounded context, for it will always have areas nobody has seen and those areas may contain contradictory information.

[Nihilianth]

I ask sincerely that people not interrupt my sequence of posts. I have a lot to say here, which will probably run into a character limit if presented in a single post. This is going to be a long drawn-out process, and is going to be very long-winded. Not my fault, as I am exposing a lot of dishonest behavior I have seen in this thread from namely jj and tessaline.


Tesscaline’s quotes, and my responses:

Here, I shall demonstrate the conversation in it’s entirety, while addressing post number 201:

*facepalm* You're being inconsistent again. None of this is different than what I've been complaining about... But yet, I'm not allowed to complain unless I have a solution? Please get your ducks in a row. Please.

So, what led up to this factually incorrect statement? I will go back and show exactly what transpired here, and show tesscaline is a dishonest, obfuscating liar taking everything out of context. Now, you shall notice that tesscaline’s comments start out rather broad-based, and finally ends up with specifics, as far as the “education system as a whole.” (You shall see this in the following post).

But, without further ado:

Starting with post 169 (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=7005717&postcount=169) that jj wrote:

Basically, jj was complaining about homework specifically, and erroneously translating that into how “it teaches a child contempt of the system.” He cited no sources for his claims, and only uses his own experience, and that of his kids.

My response in post 172 (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=7005777&postcount=172)

It is a long-winded post in response to jj before tess decided to jump into the conversation. To sum up: It was a post about the merits and benefits of repetition in homework, giving many examples of even professionals with very specific tasks having to stay at the top of their game. I make no claim to either confirm or deny that homework, especially of the repetitious kind, is boring. I even agree that it is so. But I wrote one line that was blown WAY out of proportion, taking that one dumb little sentence out of my entire post about examples of just how repetition is useful…necessary, even, in mastering any subject material, whether it be flying planes, playing baseball, practicing law or medicine, etc.

But obviously all of that got completely ignored and swept under the rug, because of one statement that I immediately retracted after it was (VERY rudely!) pointed out to me. We shall see I have retracted that statement rather readily, and we shall see in a bit just how Tess took my reponses completely out of context simply because my overarching arguments were inconvenient. We shall also demonstrate on why it is a lie that I am "inconsistent."

To be continued…..

[jj]

Not my fault, as I am exposing a lot of dishonest behavior I have seen in this thread from namely jj and tessaline.

Your claim of dishonesty on my part is false and libellous, and furthermore constitutes an accusation of professional misconduct on my part.

Retract it completely and without qualification.

[Nihilianth]

Your claim of dishonesty on my part is false and libellous, and furthermore constitutes an accusation of professional misconduct on my part.

Retract it completely and without qualification.

Hang on. Give me a second here. I'll go back and retract that if I find that statement was without merit. But first, I am concentrating on tess's dishonest behavior that is unprofessional in the extreme:


Now, moving on:

Tess’s post number 174 (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=7005844&postcount=174) was quite obnoxious, and I will also post it in it’s entirety here for everyone’s convenience:

I call BS on that.

I had "contempt" for the system as a child. My parents encouraged learning, in fact, my father is a teacher himself. But school was BORING. It wasn't difficult at all. It was just flat boring. Homework was boring, classwork was boring, teachers were boring. The only reason I didn't end up with straight A's in every class was because I was SO BORED that I flat out refused to participate and/or do homework. I aced every test without doing homework, or paying much attention in class. I read through the text books. Plain and simple. But, you know, that's what you get when you have "teachers" who don't actually know anything about the subjects they're teaching, and just teach what the teacher's guide tells them to teach -- word for word. There was almost nothing taught that required any degree of actual thought. Just blind repetition. This KILLS children's minds. It really sucks that you're actually advocating this sort of drivel, actually.

First, tess made a big mistake in making such sweeping generalized statements about “The System” based on her own experience. There is nothing specific here. Only about how “BORING” homework and school in general were. How “stupid” her teachers were. The only thing approaching any specifics in this area is that the teachers “don’t know anything about the subject material, and that they only strictly follow what the teacher’s guide tells them.” She also complains about “blind repetition, and how it KILLS children’s minds.”

These are extremely sweeping, and extremely generalized claims that are being made, without any context, research, or evidence to back this up. This is where I completely disagree with everything tess has said. (The beginning of my soc-called “inconsistency.”)

You will also notice that she picked one sentence….one single sentence….out of post number 172:

Children will only learn "contempt" of the system, if the parents teach it to them, if you take the method DD explained in his very first post in this whole thread.

You will notice that she completely ignored my arguments that were fairly well thought-out about how even specialized professionals must continue every day with their particular field of study in order not to get “rusty.” If professional adults must continue working in a specific field, then obviously all the more so for small children.

Another key point I have made that goes along with this, is that I have mentioned that learning is not easy. Nobody said it was. Nor should it be easy. Nothing is easy.

Now, back to the above quote that I personally wrote, and which I amended after it was pointed out to me the very first time (you shall see this in the near future.) It’s not that it was the sentence she took out of context of an entire post. It was just one single word she had a major problem with. My use of the word “only,” seems to be the big target of derision, completely ignoring my entire point that I took the time out to type up.

have contempt for the current system because of very similar issues. There is no thought involved. No reasoning skills. Just blind rote memorization of whatever the teacher's guide says to teach. Memorizing facts (whether or not they're actually facts is under dispute with me, as I've actually had to correct blatant errors on homework sheets sent home with my child -- the response about it? "I just teach what the teacher's guide says to" Pathetic.) is not learning. It is memorization. Any idiot can memorize just about anything. That doesn't mean they understand it, or can apply that knowledge to anything other than a test designed to get them to spew it back out. My child is BORED. And no amount of bitching about that to teachers helps. Why? All they can do is teach out of their little books, which are designed to teach to a test that my child can already pass (no thanks to the teachers, mind you).

Once again, these are all generalized statements, based on her own experience. There is no context at all about the curriculum that lacks “reasoning skills.” There is no context about what grade level she is talking about. There is no context about the specific teacher’s curriculum. She makes a blanket statement erroneous claim about memorization without providing any reason why, or how memorization is ineffective. Only that she is “BORED” with it. (She seems to use this word quite a lot.)
Therefore, I still disagree with everything that was posted in 174.

And here you are saying that the majority of problems with the education system are, what? The SCHEDULE? I say that the problem isn't the schedule, it's that the vast majority of teachers don't actually KNOW anything, and the few who do aren't actually allowed to TEACH it, or, fsm forbid, fail someone who doesn't learn it. Instead, children are forced to memorize loads of facts without understanding the theories or thought processes behind those facts. All in the hopes of making sure "no one fails". It's utterly ridiculous.

What's even more utterly ridiculous is that you're actually defending it.

Yes. I am “defending it,” because there is no evidence that any of her teachers were at all incompetent. She only goes by her impressions of the teacher, which were skewed and biased in the extreme. It is, after all, quite evident that she was “BORED” the entire time.

Furthermore, she complains about having to “memorize loads of facts, without understanding the theories or thought processes behind those fact.” What “facts” is she talking about that are memorized without knowing the theories and so forth? What grade level is she talking about? What teacher? What class? I have no idea wtf she is talking about. So I still continue to disagree with her here.

To be continued…..

[jj]

But obviously all of that got completely ignored and swept under the rug, because of one statement that I immediately retracted after it was (VERY rudely!) pointed out to me. We shall see I have retracted that statement rather readily, and we shall see in a bit just how Tess took my reponses completely out of context simply because my overarching arguments were inconvenient. We shall also demonstrate on why it is a lie that I am "inconsistent."

To be continued…..

You retracted a comment. You have therefore stipulated that your arguments are inconsistent. It's a human failing. Live with it, and don't call someone a liar for pointing it out.

[tesscaline]

You retracted a comment. You have therefore stipulated that your arguments are inconsistent. It's a human failing. Live with it, and don't call someone a liar for pointing it out.This. And not only was it a comment that was retracted by his own admission, but it was a fallacious comment at that.

I fail to see how me pointing out that it was a fallacious comment makes me (or anyone else) a liar, or dishonest.

[jj]

Hang on.

...


To be continued…..

So, your accusation of dishonesty comes from the fact you DO NOT AGREE with someone?

It is neither dishonest nor unprofessional to disagree with someone. It is an extremely arrogant, insulting act to call another's disagreement "dishonest", to say the least.

Edited to add: Furthermore, it is not in the least bit rude to disagree with someone, or to dispute their conclusion. If it were, I would be even more annoyed with the prattling that you've thrown at me. You have taken the attitude "how dare YOU argue with ME" quite to heart, so now, let me ask you, who DO you think you're arguing with?

[jhunter1163]

At the risk of sounding repetitive, address the argument and NOT the arguer. Thank you for your anticipated cooperation.

[tesscaline]

Hang on. Give me a second here. I'll go back and retract that if I find that statement was without merit. But first, I am concentrating on tess's dishonest behavior that is unprofessional in the extreme:

I've snipped all your arguments as they are not actually addressing my argument, in the least.

As to being "unprofessional" -- posting on a forum is not my job. I'm not required to be professional here. And honestly? If any employee of mine were spouting the logical spiderweb of nonsense that you are? Damned straight I'd call them on it in an abrupt and rude fashion. I do not suffer fools. Especially not in my company. You don't succeed by hiring substandard employees.

Which, surprisingly enough, is rather on topic when discussing the school system. But hey, it's besides my point.

My point, is in regards to what you've said is that your statement about children ONLY learning contempt for the system from their parents is fallacious. It is an absolute statement based on a flawed premise. I demonstrated that. Quite clearly. You've even "retracted" the statement, an admission that it was incorrect, so I really don't know what bug has crawled up your bottom about the subject. Other than that you seem to think that my comments have anything to do with anything else you said before that point, or even with the rest of that post, when I made it fairly clear that the only thing I was responding to directly (other than your attitude) was the specific item quoted.

Oh, and before you go whining and moaning about people being "rude"? Maybe you'd better take a good long look at your own posts. You're not exactly the picture of civility yourself, buddy.

I won't be responding further to this idiocy. Your incoherent babbling is simply not worth my time or effort. Start putting out some logical statements, and maybe I might reconsider; with the emphasis on "maybe" and "might".

[Nihilianth]

Post number 195 (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=7008694&postcount=197)and my response to it is her idea of me being “inconsistent.” She finally gave some specifics of what I can go off of to determine what she is saying is actually true. I even mentioned that in the opening line of post number 198:

See, NOW you have finally hit on some specifics, most of which I might actually agree with you one!

So, let's take this point-by-point, shall we? Hopefully you learn something about me, before making any other uninformed blanket statements that are completely unsupported. But most of the things you did hit on are curriculum-specific which can be tweaked, or thrown out altogether easily enough.


In post 195, she talks about how the WA schools are better than the CA schools. This is true, and I have mentioned in 198 that is one of the things we are moving towards doing: Standardizing education across the nation.
She mentioned the “strangeness” of the math curriculum, and the ways in which they are teaching kids math these days. Lucky for her, I immediately thought of the strange ways in which they utilize Algebra.

Then she hits the nail on the head when she talks about one specific teacher (her sister’s boyfriend) who is an English teacher, and getting kids who are, and I quote: “that even that was hard because most of his students didn't come into his classes with basic reading/writing skills.”

EXACTLY!! What I have been saying all along about the importance of the foundational studies in elementary school! I have been saying all along, that reading comprehension, and writing are the two single most important subject area in school. There is a huge reason for that: How can you POSSIBLY reasonably expect a kid to be able to function without knowing how to understand what they are reading, or not knowing how to write properly? This applies for every subject, and every profession!

And etc. The rest of her post 195 was much the same. She gave specifics of what is wrong with “The System.” She didn’t have any idiotic blanket statements about “The System” in general, and how “stupid” teachers are.
And now we come back to the first line of post number 201:

*facepalm* You're being inconsistent again. None of this is different than what I've been complaining about... But yet, I'm not allowed to complain unless I have a solution? Please get your ducks in a row. Please.

Maybe I outta give her the benefit of the doubt, and just assume that she didn’t know that she was not at all clear before post 197. But remember, we have just cleared up the very first line in number 201. But 201 still has a lot more problems for me to address. And that shall be done in the near future.

[Nihilianth]

You retracted a comment. You have therefore stipulated that your arguments are inconsistent. It's a human failing. Live with it, and don't call someone a liar for pointing it out.

This. And not only was it a comment that was retracted by his own admission, but it was a fallacious comment at that.

I fail to see how me pointing out that it was a fallacious comment makes me (or anyone else) a liar, or dishonest.

So, your accusation of dishonesty comes from the fact you DO NOT AGREE with someone?

It is neither dishonest nor unprofessional to disagree with someone. It is an extremely arrogant, insulting act to call another's disagreement "dishonest", to say the least.

Edited to add: Furthermore, it is not in the least bit rude to disagree with someone, or to dispute their conclusion. If it were, I would be even more annoyed with the prattling that you've thrown at me. You have taken the attitude "how dare YOU argue with ME" quite to heart, so now, let me ask you, who DO you think you're arguing with?

At the risk of sounding repetitive, address the argument and NOT the arguer. Thank you for your anticipated cooperation.

I've snipped all your arguments as they are not actually addressing my argument, in the least.

As to being "unprofessional" -- posting on a forum is not my job. I'm not required to be professional here. And honestly? If any employee of mine were spouting the logical spiderweb of nonsense that you are? Damned straight I'd call them on it in an abrupt and rude fashion. I do not suffer fools. Especially not in my company. You don't succeed but hiring substandard employees.

Which, surprisingly enough, is rather on topic when discussing the school system. But hey, it's besides my point.

My point, in regards to what you've said is that your statement about children ONLY learning contempt for the system from their parents is fallacious. It is an absolute statement based on a flawed premise. I demonstrated that. Quite clearly. You've even "retracted" the statement, an admission that it was incorrect, so I really don't know what bug has crawled up your bottom about the subject. Other than that you seem to think that my comments have anything to do with anything else you said before that point, or even with the rest of that post, when I made it fairly clear that the only thing I was responding to directly (other than your attitude) was the specific item quoted.

Oh, and before you go whining and moaning about people being "rude"? Maybe you'd better take a good long look at your own posts. You're not exactly the picture of civility yourself, buddy.

I won't be responding further to this idiocy. Your incoherent babbling is simply not worth my time or effort. Start putting out some logical statements, and maybe I might reconsider; with the emphasis on "maybe" and "might".

Is it so much for me to ask to have the floor for me to form my arguments before assuming what you know what I have to say? I am doing a step-by-step process of doing just that: Addressing Tess's arguments. Tess's arguments were many and varied. Some accusing me of being "inconsistence," which I am showing to be untrue. Some are blanket generalized statements which are unfounded.

I suppose in retrospect, it was perhaps due to her not realizing that one of her posts were not at all clear, and all but calling all teachers "stupid" because they don;t know the subject material they are teaching, in one of her posts. This is where I vehemently, and perhaps a little hot-headedly, disagreed with her. I called her out on that particular post.

There was another post in which she finally did make some more specific complaints about the system that I did agree with her on.

Then she came and called me "inconsistent" in a rather rude and arrogant manner, without ever seemingly fully reading what I had posted. She did not address any of my points at all. Even after I took the time out to explain my position, and used real-life examples.

Now, shall I continue with picking apart post number 201 in this manner, or do you get the point yet? Just wondering.

[jj]

Maybe I outta give her the benefit of the doubt, and just assume that she didn’t know that she was not at all clear before post 197. But remember, we have just cleared up the very first line in number 201. But 201 still has a lot more problems for me to address. And that shall be done in the near future.

Do you even understand the enormity of the logical fallacies you've employed to get to this point?

You turn disagreement into dishonesty. Then, you attempt to relate words out of context, and you follow up by throwing one of the biggest exercises of the fallacy of the excluded middle into the pie, and build a half-dozen straw men on top of that, ending with an appeal to emotion, followed by a threat, i.e. "near future".

Why, pray tell, are you surprised that others are annoyed with your words, then?

If you really wish to convince me, at least, of anything, FIRST you will need to relate precisely, exactly, WHAT kinds of repetition are beneficial, and what kinds are not, in those studies you have pointed to. What's more, you have to show WHAT benefits came of said repetition. Then, you can address the issues of ability to extrapolate as well as repeat, how to apply learning from one situation to another, and how to critically examine material.

If and when you can actually accomplish that to my satisfaction, I may be easier to convince.

If, on the other hand, we see that some kinds of repetition encourage application of learning to new problems, while some other kinds discourage it, if we see that some kinds of repetition encourage inflexibility and create an inability to adapt to changes, and so on, you may have a very, very hard sell ahead of you.

Through all of this, you must remember that when I disagree with you, as I am likely to do, that I am allowed to do that, that it is professional, correct, and polite to do so, in fact, and that appealing to emotion in the fashion of "how dare you disagree" is simply an apparent sign of weakness in your argument.

[jj]

Is it so much for me to ask to have the floor for me to form my arguments before assuming what you know what I have to say?

When you are arguing from a flawed premise, your conclusions are meaningless, neither right nor wrong. Ergo, you would rationally be thanking us for taking the time to show errors earlier.

Let me ask you a question: Have you ever actually had a paper go through peer review?

[Nihilianth]

Another major unfounded accusation against me:

"Logical fallaicies." Both Tess and jj have mentioned I have been streaming nothing but logical fallicies and strawmen. Please, by all means, point those out! Bring them out in the daylight. Quit hiding these accusations in the dark.

The last legitimate post, before you two derailed this entire thread, was this:


"Teaching kids how to think" is not a major concern. Teaching them reading, and reading comprehension is. Quick: Tell me what is the best way for someone to learn how to think for themselves? I would imagine that reading is a major component of this. Once again, it all comes down to reading, and reading comprehension. You must know how to read. Not just read, but you must also know how to comprehend what you are reading. This is the most basic, and all-important, all-encompassing skill one can possibly possess. Without it, there is absolutely no way for anyone to be able to figure anything out on their own, unless they are a mechanical tinkerer or something like that. And even then, they will only have very rudimentary skills in mechanics.

The only way to get a child to be able to read, is by doing, doing, and doing. Repetition is the most effective means of learning to read. It is the most effective means of doing basic mathematics. As a web designer, I can CERTAINLY tell you that, whenever I stop working in HTML, or Javascript for (especially JS!) for any length of time, I forget what to do, and have to take a bit of time to "re-learn it."

Children will only learn "contempt" of the system, if the parents teach it to them, if you take the method DD explained in his very first post in this whole thread.

Basically, learning is not easy. Nobody says it is easy, and nobody says it is going to be easy. Nor should learning BE easy. Just like building muscles by exercising, it takes a lot of time and effort. That is why there are 12 grades (13 if you count kindergarten, 14 if you count pre-school!) And it takes 12-14 years, just to get out of secondary education. It will then take another 2 years on top of that for an Associates, 4 for a Bachelor's, 6 for a Master's, 8 for a Doctorate's, and 10 for a Post-doctorate's! We are talking up to 24 friggin years of learning. That is one third of your life-span. Then, once you are finally set up in a career, you never stop learning, because the world is constantly moving on to the next big thing!

Many examples in the professional world when it comes to repitition:

All professional athletes cannot afford to take more than three months off in conditioning, practicing, or playing. If they do so, they will get set back quite a bit, and gain a lot of "rust."

Pilots must always be flying something if they want to remain employable. Pilots, too, gain a certain amount of "rust" if they are grounded for any length of time. Even when pilots are not grounded, they still need to stay up to date with their license, which means they must show they are still competent in flying planes.

In the computer world, if you are Microsoft certified, you must demonstrate you skills every year in order to maintain your certification.

If you are a lifeguard, likewise, you must go through CPR, and physical fitness testing in order to maintain your certification.

Police officers, and all military personnel must take target practice periodically, in order to maintain accuracy, and effectiveness with firearms. They must do PT in order to maintain a healthy body.

Cooks....all professional cooks, from chefs to sous chefs and so forth, must continue working in their profession, or else they too gain quite a bit of "rust."

Those who practice law, in order to stay on top of their game, must continue to practice law and constantly do research and always go back to read up on old materials, and stay current with new ones as well.

Same with doctors. Doctors must always be practicing medicine so they too won't get rusty. I would much rather have a fairly noob doctor perform rain surgery on me that has been at it constantly for the past 5 years, than someone who used to do it constantly for 30 years, but hasn't done it in the past one year. They are "out of practice" much like all those other professions.

After all, if you don't use it, you lose it. There is quite a bit of regression if you do not continue to utilize what you have learned. Especially if you have learned something as recently as a second grader has learned to read or do math. It is absolutely true, and you cannot possibly deny that this is so.

So yeah, go ahead and feel contempt for a system that utilizes repetitions if you want, but you will only build up bad habits, and will get left behind in the dust by your peers. I would highly suggest you learn a bit about human (and animal) learning and cognitive development.

You have ONLY concentrated on one sentence. Nay, one word in one sentence in this entire thread. Neither of you have addressed the thread. Not one iota of a word outside the word "ONLY." Of which I quickly retracted as you have admitted.

Beyond that, have been nothing but unfounded blanket statements about how stupid teachers are, my inconsistencies, and some "logical fallacies" that you have dreamed up without ever pointing anything out. (Except for the "circular logic" thing. Which I have quickly shown to not be the case.)

Now, if you please, you can address the quoted post above, and/or point out EXACTLY what is fallacious that I have said. I will quickly retract it and amend it for clarity if need be. Once I do, no need to bring up dozens of times over.

Also, if you are the one with the problem of the current system, it is up to you to provide that evidence that you are asking of me. Especially when it comes to HW, and repetition. All the conventions say that repetition is effective. You make the claim that it is not. Now, let's see some sources since you want to change that in the school system.

I have provided several sources about how bad summer vacation is. I want to change that conventional policy, and so it is up to me to furnish the evidence. Which I have.

[jj]

"Logical fallaicies." Both Tess and jj have mentioned I have been streaming nothing but logical fallicies and strawmen.

Please show me where I said you ONLY streamed mistakes?

ONE mistake in a logical argument is sufficient to dismiss it.

ETA: Have you ever had a paper go through peer review?

[Meadmaker]

There's nothing like an education topic to get people all riled up. It hits all the emotional buttons, from childhood memories to complaints about "kids these days" or complaints about teachers not doing the things they did when we were kids. On top of that, if your own kids have had a bad experience, you're likely to complain about the whole educational system.

Well, anyway, there were a few answers to the OP.

It was noted that seeing parents pick out books in the library wasn't actually about parents doing their kids' homework, but actually it was just about parents not letting their kids walk to the library alone anymore.

I noted that the reason I sometimes did my kid's homework was that the assignments were such that neither he nor any kid could do them without help.

One thing that no one brought up, surprisingly in my opinion, was the general phenomenon of overinvolved parents, the stereotypical "helicopter mom", getting involved in every aspect of their child's life and generally smothering them and not letting them learn anything on their own. It really does happen, and I think it happens more than it used to.

The most interesting part of the thread, to me, was the hullabaloo about DallasDad's comments. Basically, he said that he didn't do his kids' homework, but he thought that if the assignments were inappropriate, he told his kids not to do them either. I thought that was incredibly sensible, maybe just because his actions were actually what my kid's teachers have told us to do in those circumstances. Nevertheless, some people thought it was horribly wrong of him.

[tesscaline]

Well, anyway, there were a few answers to the OP.I've been lurking, but everything had gotten far out into left field by the time I'd felt confident enough with my thoughts on the matter to comment. Anyway:

It was noted that seeing parents pick out books in the library wasn't actually about parents doing their kids' homework, but actually it was just about parents not letting their kids walk to the library alone anymore.Except that it wasn't just a case of a parent walking their child into the library and standing there while the child found the book. It was the parent going and getting the book for the child. I happen to consider finding one's own references a rather important part of the whole report writing exercise. So I do agree that this was a case of a parent doing the work for the child. I think that's a bad thing.

I noted that the reason I sometimes did my kid's homework was that the assignments were such that neither he nor any kid could do them without help.I really can't agree with that tactic. If homework is inappropriate, that matter should be brought up with teachers. Doing a child's homework for them, under any circumstance, defeats the entire purpose of the homework.

One thing that no one brought up, surprisingly in my opinion, was the general phenomenon of overinvolved parents, the stereotypical "helicopter mom", getting involved in every aspect of their child's life and generally smothering them and not letting them learn anything on their own. It really does happen, and I think it happens more than it used to.It may or may not happen more than it used to. Growing up I knew just as many children who were fussed over that way as I'm aware of now. It's not a new phenomenon. In fact, it's an age old happening. It's just that we have a higher population now, so while the percentage may be the same, the actual amount is higher. We also have a more publicized society now, so instances of this sort of behavior are more widely known than they would have been in the past.

The most interesting part of the thread, to me, was the hullabaloo about DallasDad's comments. Basically, he said that he didn't do his kids' homework, but he thought that if the assignments were inappropriate, he told his kids not to do them either. I thought that was incredibly sensible, maybe just because his actions were actually what my kid's teachers have told us to do in those circumstances. Nevertheless, some people thought it was horribly wrong of him.I found that rather interesting myself. Personally, I don't disagree with his stance on the matter. If homework is blatantly inappropriate, then it rests upon parent's shoulders (until a certain point, obviously) to address that problem with the school system. Forcing a child to try to complete tasks that are obviously beyond their capabilities does nothing but cause frustration and foster angst over those tasks. Especially if you're dealing with a child who already has a learning/developmental disability.

My experiences with my own child's homework has been less than stellar. While he gets homework, he doesn't get nearly as much homework as I did when I was his age. And the subject matter of that homework is severely lacking in depth. The times he ends up confused are generally because the school district has adopted a version of "math" curriculum thats about as close to actual math as Klingon is to English.

I will never do my child's homework for him. I even object to assignments which require my active participation a lot of the time. Now, I'm not talking about assignments that are things like "ask your parents about the day you were born, and write about it". I'm talking about assignments that are things like "play this math game with your parents X number of times tonight and turn in the scores" or, most notably (my biggest gripe with his English teacher right now) that I need to discuss with him (verbally) the book he's read for his nightly reading homework and then sign a piece of paper saying that he's understood what he's read. When I was in school, we did book reports. Book reports that not only demonstrated we'd understood what we'd read, but gave us practice articulating abstract concepts to a varied audience, forming conclusions and communicating the reasoning behind them, as well as the whole basic reading/writing skill set of spelling, grammar, handwriting, etc.. And then there's the whole practice for higher grade levels where report and essay writing will become run of the mill. My child is 12 years old, and has never had to write a book report in his entire life. I'm actually tempted to assign them to him myself instead of having "talks" (which, thanks to the joys of prepubescence, are basically me asking questions and him giving terse answers -- if I hadn't read the books myself, I'd have no way to judge his understanding of it).

I feel that parents are being asked to fill roles, and take up responsibilities, that used to rest on the shoulders of teachers and students. And while I'm all for parental involvement in education, I'm very much against parents being required to be involved -- especially to the extent that a child's grade might suffer as a direct result of said parent being unable or unwilling to bend to the whim of a teacher. And I have run into that situation. I was appalled, and complained to the teacher about it. Yet another case of "I just teach what the manual says to."

I really need to get one of these manuals that tells me how to handle every situation. My life would be made. Every time someone disagreed with anything I said or did I could come back with the "the manual made me do it" excuse, and never be held accountable for anything!
...
...
*sigh*

[ZirconBlue]

One thing that no one brought up, surprisingly in my opinion, was the general phenomenon of overinvolved parents, the stereotypical "helicopter mom", getting involved in every aspect of their child's life and generally smothering them and not letting them learn anything on their own. It really does happen, and I think it happens more than it used to.



I thought that was brought up, but I'm too lazy to go back and find the posts. I am a product of public education, after all.

[esquel]

Just as an aside...
I haven't come back to this thread (although I have been lurking) because it rapidly went offroad into territory about which I felt ambiguous at best. Tesscaline's comment a couple back was closest to my opinion, in that going to the library and searching for your own materials, rather than giving your mom or dad a subject and asking them to bring home some stuff on that topic for you, is an integral part of learning and critical thinking. If this happens frequently, either the kid is too overwhelmed or too lazy, in either case something has to give.

[Meadmaker]

Just as an aside...
I haven't come back to this thread (although I have been lurking) because it rapidly went offroad into territory about which I felt ambiguous at best. Tesscaline's comment a couple back was closest to my opinion, in that going to the library and searching for your own books, rather than giving your mom or dad a subject and asking them to bring home some books on that topic for you, is an integral part of learning and critical thinking. If this happens frequently, either the kid is too overwhelmed or too lazy, in either case something has to give.

I agree....but...

I have done exactly what was described. We (as a society) don't allow our kids to go unsupervised. That means parents have a choice. We can go to the library, pick out a book, and take ten minutes to do it, or we can gather up the kid into the car, drive off, and sit idly while the kid finds the right book. The process will take an hour for sure.

I have done it both ways myself, but I only have one kid. If, in addition to spending that hour at the library, I also had to take care of or find a caregiver for the other child/ren, I would take the ten minute route every time.

[Meadmaker]

And while I'm all for parental involvement in education, I'm very much against parents being required to be involved -- especially to the extent that a child's grade might suffer as a direct result of said parent being unable or unwilling to bend to the whim of a teacher. And I have run into that situation.

Ditto. I, too, have run into those sorts of assignments that involve, "with your parents....." To some extent, I have no one to blame but myself. He goes to a Jewish school, and many of those assignments involved family traditions. It kind of goes with the territory. We have only had a few of those outside of the "ask your parents" variety. Some, but not many. Most of the times when we felt like the homework was for us it wasn't stated explicitly. We just knew that the kids couldn't do it without help. I've never literally done his homework, but sometimes my help has been extensive enough that I might as well have.

It sounds like, at least, the overall quality of his education has been fairly good compared to your experience. I would only call one of his teachers incompetent. (Sixth grade science.) His math curriculum is all about math, and it's very demanding and very good. I suppose I'm biased by my engineering background, but I think math is the most important subject, and it's the one area that I've never had a complaint with at his school.

[Roboramma]

While you so arrogantly, ignorantly, and without support, made criticisms of the system, you failed to provide a better alternative. If the current system is so bad, surely there has to be a better solution? I don;t mean minor little tweaks here and there with any given curriculum. this occurs all the time. I mean, vastly different approaches to doing something completely different.

I don't see why one person's not providing an alternative shows that the current system doesn't have problems. If I have a broken faucet, your inability to fix it doesn't make it not broken. Nor does it suggest that I should ignore you when you point out the water dripping on the floor.

[Nosi]

I agree....but...

I have done exactly what was described. We (as a society) don't allow our kids to go unsupervised. That means parents have a choice. We can go to the library, pick out a book, and take ten minutes to do it, or we can gather up the kid into the car, drive off, and sit idly while the kid finds the right book. The process will take an hour for sure.

I have done it both ways myself, but I only have one kid. If, in addition to spending that hour at the library, I also had to take care of or find a caregiver for the other child/ren, I would take the ten minute route every time.

Having the child make the book selection at the Public Library's web page on the Internet can save the parents this time/sitter grief by having Jr select the book online then having Parent and or parent and kid go collect book or books.


The Prescott public library's web page. (http://www.prescottlibrary.info/)

A low cost PC would be a good investment for all parents. You can buy slower homework friendly desktops suitable for lower grades for under $500. I do recommend keeping said PC in a room where parents have access at all times.