good sci-fi?

[varwoche]

I like good sci-fi. The problem is finding it amidst the mountains of crap. Suggestions?

[Chaos]

If you like Space Opera, try the "Honor Harrington" novels by David Weber. The first one is "On Basilisk Station"

[Bikewer]

There's an enormous quantity of "pulp" serial stuff out there, so it's hard to find even the great classics of the genre in bookstores.

I'll start a list of the big names; I've been reading sci-fi for about 47 years or so....hehe.

Isaac Asimov, Robert Heinlein, Fritz Lieber, Jack Vance, Clifford Simak, Phillip K. Dick, Alfred Bester...for just a few of the oldsters.

Current faves of mine include William Gibson, Greg Bear, John Varley, Gregory Benford, Gene Wolfe, China Miehville.

Asimov's Science Fiction Magazine has published consistently high-quality stories for many years; I've never been dissapointed with an issue.

[Hexxenhammer]

If you want action oriented/military sci fi, anything by David Drake is guaranteed to be good. Start with the Hammers Slammers stories.

[ASRomatifoso]

Richard Morgan: Altered Carbon, Broken Angels
Neal Stephenson: Snow Crash, Cryptonomicon
Johnathan Lethem: Gun with Occasional Music, Amnesia Moon

[(S)]

Vernor Vinge. Retired computer scientist turned sci-fi author.

The Big Three, Asimov, Clarke, and Heinlein are required reading, just to scoff at the idea of young'uns who haven't read them. Make sure you read Asimov's robot novels before seeing anything of the movie. [Dear God ... the trailer ... so scary, such horror, such butchering of the original concept]

David Brin writes some interesting things, but be warned ahead of time that he tends to take a crazy, fantastic twist towards the end of most of his books. See his novel 'Earth' for a prime example. cool scifi-cool scifi-what the HELL?

[Sindai]

Dan Simmons' Hyperion series is some of the best SF I've read in ages.

Vernor Vinge is also very, very good. He does the same thing as John Steakly (another good one) with his main characters being the same in completely different stories/novels. Read books by both to see what I mean. :D

[specious_reasons]

Through my teen/college years I read "Analog" - a science fiction magazine.

It was generally good quality, "hard" science fiction. Usually featured 2-3 short stories and a novella, or the equivalent number of pages. I dont know if it's still doing so well.

It was also a good way of finding decent scifi authors.

[Darat]

The best current writer of Science Fiction (and Fantasy) has to be Gene Wolfe, with Ursula K. Le Guin a close second.

If it is the grand Space Opera you like I suggest the epics by Vernor Vinge, Alistair Reynolds and Peter Hamilton. Or for something a little different try Iain M Bank's "Culture" books.

For some good science fiction thrillers try Nancy Kress - Oaths and Miracles and Stinger are two good ones.

For the older authors:

Anything at all by Cordwainer Smith.
UBIK or Valis - Philip K Dick
Anything by Alfred Bester
The Dreaming Jewels or More than Human by Theodore Sturgeon

[Hutch]

Can't believe these guys haven't been mentioned yet.

Poul Anderson--The Nick Vanrijn/Dominic Flandry future history is one of the best overall reads in SF...and his other stuff ain't bad either.

Larry Niven--If you haven't read Ringworld and his Known Space stuff, get thee to a bookstore. His collaborations with Jerry Pournelle are among the best SF has to offer.

[ZeeGerman]

Stanislav Lem is my favorite. Solaris e.g. (the book) is way better than the two movies.

Zee

[DrChinese]

Classic sci-fi writers: A.E. Van Vogt (Silkie, Slan, Space Beagle, etc.) and Frederick Pohl (Plague of Pythons, etc.) are two of my favorites.

Well before Star Trek came out, Van Vogt wrote of a starship on a 5 year mission to explore the galaxy...

[epepke]

Define what "good sci-fi" means to you.

Personally, I like Dick, Clarke, Heinlein, Bradbury, Asimov, Egan, Bear, Willis, Branford, LeGuin, Card, Kornbluth, Shepherd, Delaney, and others I can't remember.

What do you like?

[to.by]

Larry Niven: The Ringworld books an The Integral Trees boks.
Hal Clement: The Mission of Gravity

[Bottle or the Gun]

Old Pulp stories. Burroughs, Lovecraft.
Modessit - Time God's Omnibus
Sheckley - My Brother's Keeper

[Lothian]

His Dark Materials Trilogy : "Northern Lights", "The Subtle Knife", "The Amber Spyglass" by Philip Pullman. The latter won the Whitbread book of the year; a first for a childrens book.

[varwoche]

Originally posted by epepke
Define what "good sci-fi" means to you.

Personally, I like Dick, Clarke, Heinlein, Bradbury, Asimov, Egan, Bear, Willis, Branford, LeGuin, Card, Kornbluth, Shepherd, Delaney, and others I can't remember.

What do you like?
Thanks epepke and everyone. I've read lots of Asimov, unenthisiastic thumbs up (can be boring). Ditto Clarke.

I have tried and tried to get thru various Gibson books but can't. (Seems like I "should" like Gibson.)

I liked the Null-A series by Van Vogt (typical lousy sci-fi writer, awesome stories). I liked City by Simak. Maybe Vonnegut doesn't quite count, but Cats Cradle is an all time fave.

Thanks again!

[Bottle or the Gun]

Originally posted by to.by
Larry Niven: The Ringworld books an The Integral Trees boks.
Hal Clement: The Mission of Gravity

I like most of Clement's work. He used 'hard' science in his novels. Ice World (Earth is considered an inhospitable ice planet, because sulphur is a solid! All other life in the galaxy lives at high temps!) and Needle are two of my favorites.

Forward's 'Dragon's Egg' is another in that style.

[FFed]

I like the RAMA series by Arthur C Clarke and Gentry Lee. Gentry Lee also wrote Bright Messengers and it's sequel Double Full Moon Night. Two great books that are set in the RAMA universe. Another book I have read a couple times and recommend is The Dark Beyond the Stars by Frank M Robinson. I heard it was going to be made into a movie.

[Bottle or the Gun]

Any post by Winston is sf

[rustypouch]

An author I like, and don't think has been mentioned yet, is Ben Bova.

[Chaos]

Originally posted by rustypouch
An author I like, and don't think has been mentioned yet, is Ben Bova.

Yeah, right, I forgot...

Mars
Return to Mars
Venus
Jupiter
Saturn

I haven´t read any other novel by him, yet.

The RAMA series (including the spin-offs), on the other hand, is too woo-woo IMHO. Too much god for my taste, especially the later novels.

[epepke]

Originally posted by varwoche

Thanks epepke and everyone. I've read lots of Asimov, unenthisiastic thumbs up (can be boring). Ditto Clarke.

I have tried and tried to get thru various Gibson books but can't. (Seems like I "should" like Gibson.)

I liked the Null-A series by Van Vogt (typical lousy sci-fi writer, awesome stories). I liked City by Simak. Maybe Vonnegut doesn't quite count, but Cats Cradle is an all time fave.

OK, that narrows it down. Asimov and Clarke are fairly bland writers with some good ideas. Gibson is a Johnny One-Note with style over substance.

That having been said, I think you might enjoy the Killer Bs: Bear, Benford, and Brin. And maybe Greg Egan and Stephen Baxter as well. Their stories contain lots of good ideas but develop characters and interplay better than Asimov or Clarke. Bear's anthropology about how scientists really behave is quite good. Brin and Benford seem to have gotten a bit worse lately IMO, so start with some of the earlier ones.

[Yahweh]

Not the best science fiction out there, but...
http://homeopathyworks.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/media/classical.jpg

[Hexxenhammer]

Originally posted by epepke
Brin and Benford seem to have gotten a bit worse lately IMO, so start with some of the earlier ones.

I'm a huge David Brin fan. He's one of the only SF writers who takes on the Big Questions and can manage to do it with humor. As far as him going downhill, I don't really think so. The last Uplift trilogy was amazing I thought. I also liked Kiln People a lot, but it was easy to get lost with the metaphysical stuff that was going on at the end. But I can see where you're coming from. It's hard to beat the continual inventiveness of Sundiver and Startide Rising. Wouldn't Startide Rising make a great movie?

He recently released a graphic novel called "The Life Eaters" based on his old short story "Captain America meets Thor". It's one of the best things I've read recently.

[Bottle or the Gun]

Of his stuff, Sundiver hands down is my favorite.

[Hexxenhammer]

I'm more of a action, space opera fan, so Startide Rising is my fave, but I've found that my friends that like mysteries or thrillers like Sundiver better.

Sundiver really is like a sci-fi Agatha Christie novel. Like Murder on the orient express with bug-eyed aliens with laser shooting eyes.

[Brown]

In my first year in college, one of the most interesting classes involved a professor who had just read a science fiction book. Instead of giving his normal lecture, he told us about this book he'd just finished reading.

The book was "Childhood's End" by Arthur C. Clarke.

Now, the professor made sure not to spoil any of the the surprises in the book, but his discussion of the book was so fascinating that I ran to the university library afterward to check out the book. I read it cover-to-cover in one sitting. It was pretty darn good.

Years later, I saw the book for sale at a library paperback book sale, and I bought it and read it again. It was still pretty darn good.

The biggest problem with it is that it is somewhat dated (the story begins in the early days of rocket launches into space), and yet, the story could easily be modified to fit modern times.

This is a fun book to read aloud, because the characters all have unusual accents.

[Wudang]

Ditto on Asimov and Gibson (I work with computers and Gibson annoys me). Sounds like you want better written stuff - you tried Roger Zelazny? 'Lord of Light' 'Eye of Cat" et al? 'Use of Weapons' by Iain M Banks. If you feel you should like Gibson try Peter F Hamilston's "Mindstar" books.

[bignickel]

Well, you have to read Larry Niven (Ringworld, Trees, etc).

However, if you read cyberpunk (William Gibson, Bruce Sterling, Neal Stephenson), it'll ruin you on all other SF. Once you try cyberpunk, you can never go back...

Gibson: Neuromancer
Sterling: Islands in the Net
Stephenson: Snow Crash

[Tricky]

Originally posted by Hexxenhammer


I'm a huge David Brin fan. He's one of the only SF writers who takes on the Big Questions and can manage to do it with humor. As far as him going downhill, I don't really think so. The last Uplift trilogy was amazing I thought. I also liked Kiln People a lot, but it was easy to get lost with the metaphysical stuff that was going on at the end. But I can see where you're coming from. It's hard to beat the continual inventiveness of Sundiver and Startide Rising. Wouldn't Startide Rising make a great movie?

He recently released a graphic novel called "The Life Eaters" based on his old short story "Captain America meets Thor". It's one of the best things I've read recently.
Brin's my favorite too. I've tried to read everything he's ever written. His trilogy sequel to Startide Rising is also excellent. He creates by far, the most believable aliens of any other writer. His novel, "The Postman" was excellent. That butcher job of a movie they did was a travesty. They left out the very most important points, plus they completely changed the hero. (I'll never forgive Kevin Costner for that.)

I also like his short works, like "Thor meets Captain America." A couple of times on the Paranormal board, I've linked his short story Those Eyes (http://www.davidbrin.com/thoseeyes1.html) because it is the best debunking (sensitively done) of space aliens that I've ever seen.

My other favorites (mentioned by others here) are Vinge and Simmons. Greg Bear is not bad either.

[Hexxenhammer]

Originally posted by Tricky

Brin's my favorite too. I've tried to read everything he's ever written. His trilogy sequel to Startide Rising is also excellent. He creates by far, the most believable aliens of any other writer. His novel, "The Postman" was excellent. That butcher job of a movie they did was a travesty. They left out the very most important points, plus they completely changed the hero. (I'll never forgive Kevin Costner for that.)The Postman is a great book. The survivalists were seriously scary. I love the part where the two super soldiers barely pull on the fire poker and the middle starts to turn red from the heat as they pull it apart.

And the end gives a whole new meaning to "liberal vs conservative".

[ASRomatifoso]

Just finished "Souls in the Great Machine" by Sean McMullen. I recommend it highly. Very, very imaginative, fast-paced, and a ton of really neat ideas.

I also forgot to mention in my earlier post, "The Years of Rice and Salt" by Kim Stanley Robinson.

[epepke]

Originally posted by Hexxenhammer
I'm a huge David Brin fan. He's one of the only SF writers who takes on the Big Questions and can manage to do it with humor. As far as him going downhill, I don't really think so. The last Uplift trilogy was amazing I thought. I also liked Kiln People a lot, but it was easy to get lost with the metaphysical stuff that was going on at the end. But I can see where you're coming from. It's hard to beat the continual inventiveness of Sundiver and Startide Rising. Wouldn't Startide Rising make a great movie?

I agree with you. I liked Kiln People, but it isn't my favorite.

I have to revise my earlier post. I meant that Greg Bear was going downhill, not Gregory Benford. I was extremely disappointed by Vitals and Darwin's Children. Vitals seemed to me about equal parts of a) the first half of a good SF yarn, b) the first half of an X-Files, episode, and c) a lot of superficial moral proselytizing about how extending life is evil. Darwin's Children seemed to me the Jack Chick version of Darwin's Radio. A partial explanation of this is in the metamaterial in the back of the book. It seems Bear got religion.

Another author who changed quite a lot is John Varley. He's well known for punchy though somewhat dated social commentary. The datedness is partially redeemed by the fact that he has a tendency to skewer everyone: the scene where Robin Nine-Fingers realizes she's a closeted heterosexual is priceless. Still, The Golden Globe had the old Varley punch while being less dated.

His latests book, Red Thunder, in the spirit of Tom Sawyer Abroad, Explorers, every Mickey Rooney movie ever made, and that sort of thing. Extremely light fare, almost a children's book, except that the kids are actually over 18. I wonder what happened.

[Bikewer]

I pretty much agree with your accessment of Red Thunder; I couldn't help thinking....Movie Deal?

Hehe- I could almost see the guy who played the ex-astronaut from Northern Exposure in the role.

Still, I'll give anyone a clunker; I've enjoyed Varley's stuff for years.

[evildave]

All of Stephen R. Donaldson's books have been good. The Gap Saga will mess you up, but it's a real page turner.

C.S.S. Friedman has some thoughtful works. Even the scifi/horror stuff, like Coldfire Trilogy is good.

David Brin, yeah. Postman: great book, horrible movie. Startide series not to be missed.

Some of Piers Anthony's forays into sci-fi are very good, and not the least bit silly. Try the 'Bio of a Space Tyrant' series. Most of the rest are good, but silly.

I haven't read anything by Robert A. Heinlein that I didn't enjoy.

[epepke]

Originally posted by Bikewer
I pretty much agree with your accessment of Red Thunder; I couldn't help thinking....Movie Deal?

Hehe- I could almost see the guy who played the ex-astronaut from Northern Exposure in the role.

Still, I'll give anyone a clunker; I've enjoyed Varley's stuff for years.

I'm not sure if it's a clunker. For what it is, if one likes that sort of thing, it's extremely well written. The bits about the Real Florida are as spot-on as any Carl Hiaasen novel.

It sort of reminds me of the fact that, during the Great War, several artists who had done challenging work before the war confined themselves to happy paintings. I wonder if Varley has done a similar thing in the wake of 9/11. Perhaps he feels that this simply isn't the time for challenges but rather the time for being reminded of childlike dreams.

[Lithrael]

Originally posted by Hutch

Larry Niven--If you haven't read Ringworld and his Known Space stuff, get thee to a bookstore. His collaborations with Jerry Pournelle are among the best SF has to offer.


Eeeg, I don't know about that. I picked up the Mote in God's Eye on a rec like that and, well, I guess I'm just not used to sci-fi with such a 1950's view of women. It read like they *thought* they were being forward-thinking and emancipated but had no idea what they were doing. Seriously, the women in that book were ghastly. "Exploring space and contacting aliens is great but what I really want is a baby" level stuff. The line (spoken by one of the women to the aliens they've just met) about "nice girls" not using birth control was great too.

Which is why I'm not annoyed by sci-fi with no 'empowered' women in it... If the author doesn't understand strong women, best not to try to write them. Badly written women annoy real women something fierce.

[headscratcher4]

A couple of mentions above, but I have always liked LeGuinn's Sci Fi...also, Zelazney (sp?), Lord of Light was a fun read.

[alfaniner]

Originally posted by ASRomatifoso
...
Neal Stephenson: ... Cryptonomicon
...


Guh, NO!

The first SF book I've picked up in a while (and highly recommended by the SF bookstore clerk!). I slogged through 500 pages, and still had something like 1000 to go before I put it in the "garage sale" stack.

If nothing happens in the first 500 pages, ain't nothin' gonna happen...

[evildave]

It actually winds up good. It just takes a long time to get there. Of course, not a lot of people are geeky enough to follow the technical and cryptological stuff that sort of carries the story along.

[BlackBetta]

I really enjoyed Donaldson's Gap series. It does make your skin crawl at some points, but it has great evil, anti-hero characters.

Also the Fire and Ice series by George R.R. Martin is good, although it's more fantasy than SF. It's also a bit long winded, but since I've gone this far (4 looong books) I can't stop now...

And you can't go wrong with Philip K Dick for off-center stuff.

I loved Cryptonomicon, it's definitely worth slogging through, but I'm not sure I'd call it SF per se.

[Luke T.]

Originally posted by varwoche

Maybe Vonnegut doesn't quite count, but Cats Cradle is an all time fave.



See the cat? See the cradle?

Ice nine!

It's funny, as I was reading this topic, I was thinking of Vonnegut. I have read all his books. I'm also a big Kilgore Trout fan.

Well, if you like Vonnegut, then take this advice:

originally posted by ASRomatifoso
Neal Stephenson: Snow Crash, Cryptonomicon

Outstanding choices.

[Tricky]

Originally posted by Luke T.


See the cat? See the cradle?

Ice nine!

It's funny, as I was reading this topic, I was thinking of Vonnegut. I have read all his books. I'm also a big Kilgore Trout fan.
Oh yes! Mustn't forget Vonnegut. He is so philosophical that it is easy to forget the strong sci fi element. When I read Cat's Cradle, I wanted to convert to Bokananism.

I think, though, that his most underappreciated book is Galapagos.
When I was alive, I often received advice from my own big brain which, in terms of my own survival, or the survival of the human race, for that matter, can be charitably described as questionable. Example: It had me join the United States Marines and go fight in Vietnam.
--Thanks a lot, big brain.

[epepke]

Originally posted by Lithrael
Eeeg, I don't know about that. I picked up the Mote in God's Eye on a rec like that and, well, I guess I'm just not used to sci-fi with such a 1950's view of women. It read like they *thought* they were being forward-thinking and emancipated but had no idea what they were doing. Seriously, the women in that book were ghastly. "Exploring space and contacting aliens is great but what I really want is a baby" level stuff. The line (spoken by one of the women to the aliens they've just met) about "nice girls" not using birth control was great too.

To be fair, the politically correct view of women seems to change every decade or so. I remember thinking during the 1980s that the view of women in 1950s SF was terribly dated. Now, some of the stuff produced in the 1980s seems more dated than the stuff from the 1950s.

[epepke]

Originally posted by Luke T.
Ice nine!

I read Cat's Cradle when I was a teenager, and I liked it, but I got a surprise when I took a materials science course in college. There really are eight known configurations of ice.

[Jundar]

Try Ian M. Banks:
"Feersum Endjinn" is a real beauty.

Big favourite of mine:
Kim Stanley Robinsons "Mars"-series. Big fat thoroughly hard fiction. After you´ve read the 3 books (Red Mars/Green Mars/Blue Mars) you can´t listen to any Mars Mission commentary or some gouvernment creep trying to sell the next 40 billion dollar program without remembering this work of art...

[asthmatic camel]

Originally posted by Jundar
Try Ian M. Banks:
"Feersum Endjinn" is a real beauty.


Banks' sci-fi books are an enjoyable read but are lacking if one desires hard science. His mainstream novels, to me anyway, provide more satisfaction. His political views tend to hamper his style.

The most entertaining sci-fi novel I've ever read is probably "The Mote in God's Eye" by Niven and Pournelle. Everything a sci-fi buff needs is contained in this book. If you haven't read it already, give it a try.

Of course, I may be wrong...

[Bikewer]

Hehe- Different strokes....

I really enjoyed Bank's Feersum Endjun (and The Bridge as well)

Wheras I found Mote only OK... Been years since I read it, though.

[Thumbo]

I rarely find anything in contemporary SF that meets my aging tastes (though Charles E Schloss shows promise), so I find myself revisiting favourites from the past. Most of these are ideas type fiction, rather than space opera.

Phillip K Dick - almost anything.

Edmund Cooper - a sort of British version of PK Dick. Hard to find.

Clifford D Simak - "Way Station" and many others.

Harry Harrison - the Stainless Steel Rat series, and most everything else he's written. In partcular, after reading all of Asimov, then read Harrison's "Bill the Galactic Hero".

Eric Frank Russell - "Wasp"

Orson Scott Card - "Ender's Game", and the second series of sequels.

Look out for almost anything by Lloyd Biggle Junior: they're mostly out of print, but still pop up in second hand shops.

John Whyndam wrote about a lot more than Triffids and Krakens. "Chocky", for example, is recommended.

Larry Niven - anything more than 20 years old.

Robert Heinlein - all of it, including the junior fiction, but check the publication dates: he got a bit weird towards the end.

[Wudang]

hey Thumbo - read M John Harrison's "Light"? Or Midshipman's Hope et al by Feintuch?
Cryptonomicon is one of the best books I've read in a while. Of course every so often I switched to scan mode as I didn't need so much detail on number theory etc but it didn't get in the way of the stor(y/ies) at all.

[asthmatic camel]

Originally posted by Bikewer
Hehe- Different strokes....

I really enjoyed Bank's Feersum Endjun (and The Bridge as well)

Wheras I found Mote only OK... Been years since I read it, though.

Different strokes, indeed :) Banks is a genius, a superb writer. I've thoroughly enjoyed everything he's written. Science fiction ? Well, he has some fine ideas. I'm not too sure he has a thorough enough grasp of science to really do the job.

Pournelle does, but he can't hold a candle to Banks when it comes to writing. Niven can write when he tries but tends towards the pulp end of the genre.

Arthur C. Clarke has turned out a few good reads but he too, suffers from the inability to infuse his characters with life and, to put it bluntly, balls.

Oh well, another Monday begins and I suppose I'd better go and earn some money. In the meantime, may I suggest you try Jeff Noon's "Vurt". I couldn't put it down. If you enjoy Banks, you'll love Noon.

Regards,

A_not_a_literary_critic_C

[Wudang]

You liked Banks' "Song of stone"? I tried several times.

[Thumbo]

Originally posted by Wudang
hey Thumbo - read M John Harrison's "Light"? Or Midshipman's Hope et al by Feintuch?
Cryptonomicon is one of the best books I've read in a while. Of course every so often I switched to scan mode as I didn't need so much detail on number theory etc but it didn't get in the way of the stor(y/ies) at all.
I'll give them a try - thanks for the pointers.

I relaized after posting I'd omitted two more contemporary authors who still produce good SF (though not enough of it) Joe Haldeman and Spider Robinson.

[asthmatic camel]

Originally posted by Wudang
You liked Banks' "Song of stone"? I tried several times.

I did. Not an easy read but I enjoyed it.

[Soapy Sam]

Many old favourites mentioned here.

How about Bob Shaw- "Other Days, Other Eyes" is a classic.
Harlan Ellison- "Dangerous Visions".
For modern space opera, C.J.Cherryh's "Merchanter" books are hard to beat- an elegant and stylish writer with far better characterisation than most SF,which tends to be idea driven rather than character based. Start with "Downbelow Station " and clear some shelf space.
As a youngster, I loved Andre Norton's books, James Blish, Ted Sturgeon... ah, bliss was it, in that dawn, to be young.

[Wrath of the Swarm]

Have I mentioned Greg Egan? Brilliant up-and-coming writer. His novel Diaspora is one of the most ambitious works I've ever read, and I'm including Dante's Inferno and Milton's Paradise in that group.

[steinhenge]

I don't think anyone has mentioned Connie Willis yet, but I may have easily missed it if they have. For my money, she's not only the best science fiction writer working today but also one of the best modern writers period. Doomsday Book is worth it's weight in gold, but her recent The Passage is easily my current favorite book. It's fascinating, and more about realistic science as we know it as opposed to the standard futuristic fantasy that people associate with scifi. Bellwether is similar, in that way, to The Passage . Both books are really just contemporary fiction with scientists as the main characters and their science as the main plot.

Of course, her futuristic, fantastic and/or space stuff is pretty great as well.

[Kevin_Lowe]

I second the nomination for CJ Cherryh, particularly Downbelow Station, Rider at the Gate, Cyteen and the Morgaine series.

But I'm surprised no one has mentioned Sheri S. Tepper, who is superb when she's on her form (The Gate to Women's Country and Grass are the ones I'd recommend for starters) or Louis McMaster Bujold, who has written the best ongoing space opera series ever.

If you want mighty crap, though, you cannot go past E. E. "Doc" Smith. Leave literary taste at the door. :).

[asthmatic camel]

Interesting thread. Good science or good fiction ? Which is most important to you ? George Zebrowski's Macrolife is a fair read if you enjoy so-called hard SF. At the softer end of the scale, Frank Herbert's Dune scores well.

When does SF become fantasy ? The book shops have difficulty with this one, as do I.

Perhaps someone with more ability than myself could draw a line between the two ?

Regards,

AC

[Bikewer]

Something to stir up endless arguments. I recall being in a bookstore and talking with several sci-fi readers. I mentioned that I liked Harlan Ellison. One fellow virtually sneered, "I don't read SOFT science fiction!"

Hehe- I like Dr. Asimov's idea; a good story is a good story.

[epepke]

Originally posted by steinhenge
I don't think anyone has mentioned Connie Willis yet, but I may have easily missed it if they have.

Connie Willis is damn good. I like her a lot. However, the people who like her seem to be the same people who like P.G. Wodehouse. I happen to be a member of this group. A lot of people are not.

[steinhenge]

Originally posted by epepke


Connie Willis is damn good. I like her a lot. However, the people who like her seem to be the same people who like P.G. Wodehouse. I happen to be a member of this group. A lot of people are not.

P.G. Wodehouse is one of those authors that I think I've heard of all my life and have never read. Everyone I know who has mentioned him seems to like S. J. Perleman as well (I'm certainly a member of that group). I'll have to look into the Wodehouse, thanks.

This topic inspired me to pick up and re-read Bellwether today, which I just finished. Better than I remembered. That and The Passage are really like nothing I've ever read.

[Jeff Corey]

I've been reading scientifiction since I was 8 or 9 and found Burroughs' Thuvia Maid of Mars in a box of books in the attic.
I just finished rereading Dick's Solar Lottery after almost 50 years. It stood up pretty well, but I think his The Man in the High Castle was better.

[epepke]

Originally posted by Jeff Corey
I've been reading scientifiction since I was 8 or 9 and found Burroughs' Thuvia Maid of Mars in a box of books in the attic.
I just finished rereading Dick's Solar Lottery after almost 50 years. It stood up pretty well, but I think his The Man in the High Castle was better.

Man in the High Castle, along possibly with Valis and The Transmigration of Timothy Archer are the SF books where Dick took the trouble to write. That is, where he took the trouble to get the wordcraft good.

That having been said, I think that Solar Lottery is brilliant. It was his first published novel, and the writing is rough, but the ideas are excellent. I like how well the feudalism in the book maps onto modern corporate culture. Also, how can one dislike a book that has a flagrant borderline get thrown out of an airlock? Another one of his "unusual" books I really like is Eye in the Sky. When it was written, it took a fair amount of courage to come out against racism and McCarthyism at the same time.

[epepke]

Originally posted by steinhenge
P.G. Wodehouse is one of those authors that I think I've heard of all my life and have never read. Everyone I know who has mentioned him seems to like S. J. Perleman as well (I'm certainly a member of that group). I'll have to look into the Wodehouse, thanks.

You're in for a treat. Start anywhere. It's all good.

[sorgoth]

Originally posted by Jundar

Big favourite of mine:
Kim Stanley Robinsons "Mars"-series. Big fat thoroughly hard fiction. After you´ve read the 3 books (Red Mars/Green Mars/Blue Mars) you can´t listen to any Mars Mission commentary or some gouvernment creep trying to sell the next 40 billion dollar program without remembering this work of art...

I was going to mention this! I really liked those books, very well written.

Unfortunately, the local library is...small, and has very few of the books mentioned :(

[QuarkChild]

How many people have mentioned Snow Crash by now? Four? I'll "fifth" it--it's a wonderful book. So are the Gap Chronicles, which someone mentioned. Clarke's Childhood's End I'll second as well.

Even if you don't like classic Asimov, I recommend his book The Gods Themselves. It does the best job of characterizing alien life forms that I've ever encountered. It makes them believable. It really is amazing. I can't recommend it highly enough to do it justice.

One of my favorite books is Time's Arrow by Martin Amis. It's more philosophical than sci-fi, but not in the pretentious, obtuse way that many philosophical novels are. It's utterly simple, charming (if dark), and wonderful.


Sounds like I need to read the Ringworld books....

[Jundar]

Originally posted by QuarkChild
How many people have mentioned Snow Crash by now? Four? I'll "fifth" it--it's a wonderful book.

Yup. One more. Diamond Age is nice too... and after that I tried Zodiac which is, well, interesting but not really SF (somehow reminded me of Indiana Jones wearing a bioprotectiong suit :) )

Anyone here confessing having read Herbert Franke´s Dune series? I actually liked it but I always was a bit disappointed - it feels like he only wrote 90% of the book and then stopped...

[Jabberwock]

How 'bout Stephen Baxter's "Voyage?" It's an alternate reality novel where Kennedy survives and uses the space program as the centerpiece of his administration. It means we get to Mars in the '80's. The nice thing about it is that it's fairly realistic. Sure we get to Mars in the '80's but other things are changed also...

In a similiar vein, Norman Spinrad did a book called "Russian Spring." It was, I think, intended as a possible future when it was written, but the break up of the Soviet Union has pretty much turned it into another alternate reality story. It shows a robust space program based in Europe and led by a kinder, gentler Soviet Union. The US is living off past space glories and is too debt ridden and paranoid to pursue space in any real fashion.

I second the person who mentioned Weber's "Honor Harrington" books! While they are great space opera, he does have some annoying habits. Some times he gets too cute with names (Rob Pierre, Russ Perot). It is also really apparent that his inspirations are Hornblower and history. You can sort of figure out the general direction of things if you've read Hornblower and are familiar with the French Reign of Terror. Worse, in later books he sometimes falls into the Tom Clancy excessive details trap ("Honor looked at the monkey wrench. The monkey wrench had been made by a small Latvian company on Sphinx. One of her holding companies, the company had also made a bazillion dollars building widgets. These widgets were the mainstay of a small subspecies of treecats, who used the wrenchs to create a type of music. This music had been hailed by the Trash Art movement as an expression of...). Still, it's a very rich universe and he excels at writing space battles and political intrigue. When Weber's firing on all cylinders, the Harrington books are great reads. IMHO, the best books in the series are "On Basilisk Station, The Honor of the Queen, Field of Dishonor," and "Flag in Exile".

Edited to correct spelling errors

[Kevin_Lowe]

Originally posted by QuarkChild
Even if you don't like classic Asimov, I recommend his book The Gods Themselves. It does the best job of characterizing alien life forms that I've ever encountered. It makes them believable. It really is amazing. I can't recommend it highly enough to do it justice.

I haven't read that one.

But I though C.J. Cherryh had some great aliens in the Foreigner series and the Chanur series. No humans in funny suits there.

[local weather]

Another big vote for Snow Crash, one of the most prescient near future novels ever written. Stephenson is so right on.

I have only see one other reference of China Meiville. He has written two absolutely outstanding novels, Perdido Street Station and The Scar. Both of these are good, but The Scar is really great, it's worth reading the first novel to get the background for it. I hear he's releasing another novel set in the same universe this year.

[Bikewer]

I loved both of Miehville's novels. Very inventive, and marvellous prose. Some of the sci-fi fans on another board found his writing too "dense", but I loved it.

Less well known from Cheryyh are her Fantasy/Sci-fi "gates" trilogy.

Only "Fantasy" in regards to the swords/horses/armor setting; the books are pretty much straight scifi, dealing with planet-spanning "gates" which can alter time and space disastrously if misused.
The primary character, Morgaine, is wonderful. Nearly crazy, purpose-driven to the point of being willing to sacrifice anything fo her mission.
Uncompromising accuracy on the mideaval weapons/tactics, etc.

[local weather]

Originally posted by Bikewer
I loved both of Miehville's novels. Very inventive, and marvellous prose. Some of the sci-fi fans on another board found his writing too "dense", but I loved it.


The Scar is so intense, there are moments in it that just tear you right out of your seat and throw you into the story.

Dan Simmons also has written an excellent series, I guess it's the Hyperion series. The first two novels (Hyperion and Fall of Hyperion) are top notch sci-fi. He really knows how to create a world that you wish you were a part of.

[Jundar]

While I´m at it, I´d like to mention Vernor Vinge´s "A Fire upon the Deep" and "A Deepness in the Sky". Some of the best alien characters and intermingled plots I´ve found so far... and in "True Names" he wrote about cyberspace some years before Gibson did.

[Hamish]

Originally posted by Jundar

Anyone here confessing having read Herbert Franke´s Dune series? I actually liked it but I always was a bit disappointed - it feels like he only wrote 90% of the book and then stopped...

That would be Frank Herbert's Dune series. I got to the end of the fifth book the first time through and to the end of the fourth book on the second run through a few months ago. The first one, Dune, is an amazing book. The second and third are well worth reading but something's lost by the fourth one. The problem is that there is no tidy ending, he just keeps leaving room for another sequel which then doesn't fill your expectations.

No one has mentioned H. G. Wells yet, so I'll drop his name in. Some of it is almost comical because of its age (written round the end of the 19th century) but it has been the inspiration for so much sci-fi that it can be worth a read. The Time Machine and War of the Worlds are probably the most famous works.

I have to echo support for Larry Niven but I'd reccomend the Crashlander stories as well as Ringworld.

(Incidentally, Terry Pratchett's forgotten sci-fi dabbling Strata is a mildly amusing spoof of Ringworld for those who like that sort of thing)

Iain M. Banks is near the top of my list - Use Of Weapons being about the best of a good bunch.

If I can blur the lines between sci-fi, fantasy and horror just a bit then I recommend giving Michael Marshall Smith a go. Actually, I insist that you try Only Forward - I read it cover to cover in one day and only through a supreme effort of will managed to put it down long enough to eat something. Not pure sci-fi but who cares when it's such a good story.

[Hexxenhammer]

Originally posted by Hamish

If I can blur the lines between sci-fi, fantasy and horror just a bit then I recommend giving Michael Marshall Smith a go. Actually, I insist that you try Only Forward - I read it cover to cover in one day and only through a supreme effort of will managed to put it down long enough to eat something. Not pure sci-fi but who cares when it's such a good story. Only Forward is one of the most crazy-@$$ books I've ever read. 100% pure insane insanity. I loved it.

[Jundar]

Originally posted by Hamish

That would be Frank Herbert's Dune series.
Argh. Sorry, Herbert Franke is in a fact a German SF writer. Jehovah! :hit:

[BillyTK]

IMO Gibson is one of the best SF authors of the past couple of decades, who injected a great deal of inventiveness, energy and style into (again IMO) what had become a rather stale and inward-looking genre (I admit I'm not a big fan of space opera/hard science stuff, what with their parade of one-dimensional characters and superficial settings from the killer-B crowd; Bova, Bear &c).

I've read Snow Crash (fun but ungainly, and the James Bond ending felt unconvincing) and Cryptonomicon (hugely enjoyable in a Boy's Own style, but some of the gimmicks grated) but I'd recommend The Diamond Age as his bestest work, which refines the themes and ideas that Stephenson sketched out in Snow Crash and buried in Crypto..., and is altogether a more satisfying read than either.

I'd also recommend Ken McLeod, a Scottish author and contemporary of Iain M. Banks, who writes inventive, fast-paced yet thoughtful SF with more than a smattering of politics; his Fall Revolution future history trilogy (in four parts) stretches from student politics in Glasgow in the seventies to the far future and distant corners of the universe via an ever so subtly satirical mediation on communism, socialism and libertarian politics.

Finally, I'm just getting to the end of David Mitchell's The Cloud Atlas, which although not traditional SF, has some SF pastiches in it (two sections set in dystopian futures), and which for me is looking like best read of the year.

[asthmatic camel]

I'm fascinated by everyones' opinion of Frank Herbert. Of the Dune series, the first, third and fourth (Dune, Children of Dune and God Emperor), I enjoyed tremendously. The others were yawn making.

Herbert and Ransom's "The Jesus Incident" and the sequel "The Lazarus Effect" had me spellbound. The final episode, The Ascenscion Factor, mostly written by Ransom following Herbert's death was lacklustre.

As for Herbert, I really enjoyed some of his lesser known novels...The Dosadi Experiment, The Green Brain, The Santarago Barrier, The Godmakers and, more mainstream, Soul Catcher.

Probably hard to find now, but worth looking for.

AC

[Soapy Sam]

I second Quarkchild's praise for Asimov's "The Gods Themselves".

Asimov wrote novels set in a human (and Robot) only universe. This was (I felt) a mistake. The fact that he created such believable aliens when he finally tried (after so many forgettable humans) suggests I'm right. I wonder what else he could have created?

On the subject of "believable" aliens- an interesting read is "What Does a Martian Look Like?" by Jack Cohen and Ian Stewart. This is a serious discussion of alternative biology and definitions of "life". The authors have contributed to books by several of the writers prominent in this thread.

I find as I get older (49 next month), that SF gets less interesting. I suspect this is because I have heard most of the ideas before and because it's the shock of the new that always attracted me. (Some of the writing is truly awful, but we hang in there for the surprise twist at the end).

Also, I have lived through an era of real science so stunning that SF has been pushed to keep up. Cyberpunk promised for a time, but seems to have lost it's way. (I blame Microsoft)

[Bottle or the Gun]

John Barnes - Candle

Software written for the human brain takes over the world

[wollery]

Well I have to admit that I haven't read too widely, but if I find a writer I like I tend to read anything of theirs that I can get my grubby little paws on.

I love most of Larry Nivens' work, particularly the short stories and the early novels. His later stuff got pretty poor, culminating in The Ringworld Throne which I could barely finish. IMHO the collaborations with Pournelle and Barnes were poor at best.

Clarkes' vision was unparalleled, I think Rendezvous With Rama is a work of sheer genius. (Wasn't Childhoods End the original basis for 2001 the movie?)

Ray Bradburys' Martian Chronicles are a wonderful piece of allegory, and the ending is just fantastic.

John Wyndham should be required reading in schools, his plots are fantastic and his use of language is second to none. I just re-read Trouble With Lichen, what a book!

I agree with Thumbo, Harry Harrisons' Stainless Steel Rat books are great, SF comedy at its best.

One author who hasn't been mentioned so far is Jack McDevitt. His characters are very 3-dimensional and sympathetic, and the plots and writing style are pretty good.

[Zanna]

Originally posted by wollery

John Wyndham should be required reading in schools, his plots are fantastic and his use of language is second to none. I just re-read Trouble With Lichen, what a book!


The Chrysalids was required reading in my highschool... i thought it was a great book and have read it three times...

zanna :)

[epepke]

Originally posted by wollery
Clarkes' vision was unparalleled, I think Rendezvous With Rama is a work of sheer genius. (Wasn't Childhoods End the original basis for 2001 the movie?)

It was a short story named "The Sentinel."

Ray Bradburys' Martian Chronicles are a wonderful piece of allegory, and the ending is just fantastic.

I like that book, even though it's just a bunch of short stories run together in novel form.

[epepke]

Originally posted by BillyTK
IMO Gibson is one of the best SF authors of the past couple of decades, who injected a great deal of inventiveness, energy and style into (again IMO) what had become a rather stale and inward-looking genre (I admit I'm not a big fan of space opera/hard science stuff, what with their parade of one-dimensional characters and superficial settings from the killer-B crowd; Bova, Bear &c).

Um. Gibson was OK. A bit of style over substance, though. And he was a Johnny One-Note.

Unfortunatley, Gibson eclipsed a lot of good writers at the time, such as Lucius Shepherd, Sam Delaney, and Connie Willis. Willis, fortunately, continues to write. Delaney (the rat) stopped writing after Stars in my Pocket like Grains of Sand, which begged a sequel. I haven't seen much from Shepherd lately, but he was damn good.

[BillyTK]

Originally posted by epepke


Um. Gibson was OK. A bit of style over substance, though. And he was a Johnny One-Note.
I disagree; I can understand how Gibson's style might be... difficult for people, but there's plenty of substance; and though he's got a distinct set of concerns, I'd be hesitant about calling him a Johnny One-Note (love the pun though). Although he refines his style across his two trilogies, the concerns of the latter are substantively different to the concerns of the former. You'd love Jon Courtney-Grimwood though ;)
Unfortunatley, Gibson eclipsed a lot of good writers at the time, such as Lucius Shepherd, Sam Delaney, and Connie Willis. Willis, fortunately, continues to write. Delaney (the rat) stopped writing after Stars in my Pocket like Grains of Sand, which begged a sequel. I haven't seen much from Shepherd lately, but he was damn good.
I don't see how you can say that about either Delaney or Shepard (Willis I've never heard of, must be that Gibson eclipsing effect). Delaney started publishing in 1962, and by the time Neuromancer came along, Delaney had already established his reputation, having published 17 novels that I'm aware of, and AFAIK going on to publish a further 10 novels as well as other writings after Stars... Now don't get me wrong, I loved Delaney's stuff, as well as Zelazny and Ellison, and I probably wouldn't have 'got' Gibson without reading their work first (well, that and Hammet and Chandler from one of the many occasions when I got bored of SF), so you could equally blame Delaney for Gibson.

I read Shepard's Life During Wartime because (a) it was recommended by a number of cyberpunk-orientated sites and (b) I've got the Talking Heads record of the same name. But Life During Wartime came out three years after Neuromancer, and what with the cyberpunk tropes at the start of Life..., if anything you could accuse Shepard of riding on Gibson's coat-tails, except that Life... certainly isn't cyberpunk (more magic realism/vaguely postmodernist/Conradian?). But Shepherd's too eclectic an author to be pigeonholed in any one genre anyway, So it's kind of like saying Easton-Ellis or Coupland eclipsed Shepard et al. Anyway, last I heard Shepard published Valentine and Lousiana Breakdown last year, and was writing a novel based on the aftermath of Sept. 11 called Only Partly Here.

[asthmatic camel]

By order of Mrs.Camel I have been required to prune my SciFi collection so that we actually have enough room in the house to walk around. As we are all aware, pruning is a dangerous and upsetting business so, while I cried trying to decide which books had to go, I thought I'd list those that I'd recommend for posterity.

Brian Aldiss: The Helliconia trilogy, Barefoot In The Head and Hothouse

JG Ballard: Rushing To Paradise

Stephen Baxter: Ring

Greg Bear: The Forge Of God

Ben Bova: Everything he's ever written, I'm going to hide these in the cellar.

A C Clarke: The Star

C J Cherryh: Heavytime

L Sprague de Camp: Lest Darkness Fall

Thomas M Disch: Camp Concentration

Aldous Huxley: Ape And Essence

Stanislaw Lem: Solaris

Michael Moorcock: The Dancers At The End Of Time Trilogy

Robert Silverberg: A Time Of Changes

Vernor Vinge: The Peace War and Marooned In Realtime

Ian Watson: The Martian Inca

H G Wells: The First Men In The Moon

[Darat]

Originally posted by asthmatic camel
[B]By order of Mrs.Camel I have been required to prune my SciFi collection so that we actually have enough room in the house to walk around. As we are all aware, pruning is a dangerous and upsetting business so, while I cried trying to decide which books had to go, I thought I'd list those that I'd recommend for posterity.
..snip...

SHE MADE YOU GET RID OF BOOKS! AND YOU HAVEN'T DIVORCED HER?

ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH !

I've never got rid of a book since I was about 11 and started to barricade my bedroom.

Love me love my books...

[Darat]

Originally posted by epepke


It was a short story named "The Sentinel."



I like that book, even though it's just a bunch of short stories run together in novel form.

Technically known as a "fix-up" novel.

Lots of these were issued (especially in the 50s) by publishers; many short-story authors wrote stories set in a common universe, often featuring a cast of common characters and publishers would gather these up, sometimes with new linking material prepared by the author, and release them as a “novel”.

[Bottle or the Gun]

Originally posted by epepke


Um. Gibson was OK. A bit of style over substance, though. And he was a Johnny One-Note.

Unfortunatley, Gibson eclipsed a lot of good writers at the time, such as Lucius Shepherd, Sam Delaney, and Connie Willis. Willis, fortunately, continues to write. Delaney (the rat) stopped writing after Stars in my Pocket like Grains of Sand, which begged a sequel. I haven't seen much from Shepherd lately, but he was damn good.

Green Eyes by Shepherd was great.

[diddidit]

Another vote for Stephen Baxter's work in general, and specifically for Ring, which is part of the Xeelee sequence of books, and for Manifold:Space, the second book in the Manifold trio (it's not a trilogy - same characters, different stories with similar ideas but otherwise unrelated).

Baxter sort or reminds me of a more verbose Arthur C. Clarke; the two of them collaborated on The Light of Other Days, and on another recently released book.

Clarke is one of my favorites in part because of his apparent lack of verbosity - he has a way of just suggesting something and letting the reader's imagination fill in the details. I'm recalling the lines from The Songs of Distand Earth - something along the lines of "an embarrased cough was heard from an orbiting lab; a minus had been turned into a plus, and the secrets of the universe had been revealed." Little said, much suggested.

I think I need a longer lifespan to get through all the things that look interesting, and this thread ain't helping...

did

[Soapy Sam]

While it is literally true that "The Sentinel" is the foundation of the "Monolith on the Moon" episode in 2001, there is also a strong echo of the spirit of "Childhood's End " about the final version of 2001.
Consider the powerlessness of mankind faced with technology so advanced as to appear magical; the transcendence of mankind into the Overmind and the transformation of Bowman into the Starchild; the feeling of a vastly ancient fate, a destiny, lying in wait. There is a flavour about the latter part of both which is very similar. Or it always felt that way to me.

[epepke]

Originally posted by Darat
Lots of these were issued (especially in the 50s) by publishers; many short-story authors wrote stories set in a common universe, often featuring a cast of common characters and publishers would gather these up, sometimes with new linking material prepared by the author, and release them as a “novel”.

It still happens. David Brin's The Postman was pretty clearly a fix-up novel, but made of novellas or novelettes or whatever you want to call them.

[epepke]

Originally posted by BillyTK

I disagree; I can understand how Gibson's style might be... difficult for people, but there's plenty of substance; and though he's got a distinct set of concerns, I'd be hesitant about calling him a Johnny One-Note (love the pun though).

No, it's not difficult. Actually, I find his use of style rather transparent and a bit cynical. This is not to say that his voice is cynical (which would be OK) but that the way he uses his style is manipulative in a cynical way. It seems to me that he thinks, "OK, I want this to sound profound, so I'll turn up the e. e. cummings knob."

For comparison, see Ellison's Paladin of the Lost Hour. Now, Ellison can write and has done so, but that particular story seemed to me a cynical manipulation of formulaic writing. I get the same impression from Gibson.

I don't see how you can say that about either Delaney or Shepard (Willis I've never heard of, must be that Gibson eclipsing effect).

I say it because I used to attend a lot of authors' conventions during the 1980s, and there was a big debate about what directions SF was going to take.

Connie Willis, by the way, has won more Nebula awards than any other author. You should check her out.

Delaney started publishing in 1962, and by the time Neuromancer came along, Delaney had already established his reputation, having published 17 novels that I'm aware of, and AFAIK going on to publish a further 10 novels as well as other writings after Stars...

AFAIK none in the genre of SF, though. Besides, his early novels were Wunderkind stuff that don't really hold up terribly well.

Anyway, last I heard Shepard published Valentine and Lousiana Breakdown last year, and was writing a novel based on the aftermath of Sept. 11 called Only Partly Here.

That's good news. I'll have to look for both.

[BillyTK]

Originally posted by epepke


No, it's not difficult. Actually, I find his use of style rather transparent and a bit cynical. This is not to say that his voice is cynical (which would be OK) but that the way he uses his style is manipulative in a cynical way. It seems to me that he thinks, "OK, I want this to sound profound, so I'll turn up the e. e. cummings knob."
Sorry - you'll need to explain that reference - e.e. cummings was the poet who refused to capital letters?

For comparison, see Ellison's Paladin of the Lost Hour. Now, Ellison can write and has done so, but that particular story seemed to me a cynical manipulation of formulaic writing. I get the same impression from Gibson.
I don't get that impression; it's an impression I got with Heinlein from Number of the Beast onwards, but maybe we've got different interpretations of cynicism. Or maybe we need to agree to disagree?

I say it because I used to attend a lot of authors' conventions during the 1980s, and there was a big debate about what directions SF was going to take.
I've always considered those kind of debates entertaining but ultimately pointless; I'm trying to imagine Delany and Zelazny sat around discussing guerilla tactics in the early '60s, with Moorcock and Ballard running the British cell...

Anyway, maybe it's that Bruce Stirling (http://www.sfrevu.com/ISSUES/2003/0309/The%20User's%20Guide%20to%20the%20Postmoderns/Review.htm) you need to blame for that one ;) I think Gibson summed it up when he said that cyberpunk was always more of a marketing strategy than a genre, and I think we all know who he's referring to...

Connie Willis, by the way, has won more Nebula awards than any other author. You should check her out.
I have to say I don't normally go on the number of prizes an author has won, and at first glance Willis's work is not the kind of stuff I'd normally touch anyway. But I'll keep a look out; any book in particular you'd recommend?

AFAIK none in the genre of SF, though. Besides, his early novels were Wunderkind stuff that don't really hold up terribly well.
Hey, I love Nova and Babel-17! But I've yet to summon up enough stamina to re-read Dhalgren. Btw, do you think it might be fun to start a thread on what SF is, and then I can do my riff on why Margaret Atwood comes across as mad as a bag of spanners?

Edited to add:
A rather fun article on the cyberpunk phenomena I found whilst I was trying to google up a URL for the Swanwick article (link above) that wasn't cacky:

PILGRIMAGE TO NODE ZERO by Seth L. Lapcart (http://www.skepticfiles.org/ezine/cheap016.htm) (scroll down the page to find it)

Sample quote:
The Younger Polemicist put on a tape of Handel played by a Japanese 'koto' orchestra, knowing that his visitor would be unable to cope with anything more modern. "Let's face it, you don't even read ASIMOV's magazine. You hadn't heard of the Humanist Faction, till I told you about it. You probably even LIKE some of their stuff." He sneered contemptuously. "Deeply meaningful mood pieces evoking insight into the human condition -- that's what your 'new wave' was all about back in '68, wasn't it?"

[Bikewer]

There seems to be a tendency towards Gibson-bashing of late; not just here.
I admit I've never been one to overly analyze any sort of art, including writing. For me, it's a much more visceral experience. Either I like, and thus get involved in the story, or I don't

I've found Gibson to be immensely intertaining, especially the first three "cyberpunk" novels. The last couple, Virtual Light and All Tomorrows Parties, were excellent as well'; I've re-read them all several times.
Can't say as much about Pattern Recognition, though. Although as a stand-alone story it was OK, it seems to me that Gibson ripped himself off rather badly, with plot elements lifted from earlier stuff.

[BillyTK]

Originally posted by Bikewer
Can't say as much about Pattern Recognition, though. Although as a stand-alone story it was OK, it seems to me that Gibson ripped himself off rather badly, with plot elements lifted from earlier stuff.
I haven't read Pattern Recognition yet (I'm waiting for the paperback publication over here in June) but from reading reviews, it did strike me that the Cayce's ability sounds strikingly similar to Colin Laney's from the Bridge trilogy, and the plot resembles one of the arcs from Count Zero. I'll still read it because I enjoy Gibson's prose style, and I feel a great deal of empathy for a character who is allergic to logos... :)

[epepke]

Originally posted by BillyTK

Sorry - you'll need to explain that reference - e.e. cummings was the poet who refused to capital letters?

Yes, basically. I get the impression that Gibson gets blank versey when he wants to sound profound.

I don't get that impression; it's an impression I got with Heinlein from Number of the Beast onwards, but maybe we've got different interpretations of cynicism. Or maybe we need to agree to disagree?

We can agree to disagree, but I also get that impression from Heinlein as well.

As for cynicism, I'm using it in the less common sense of calculating. Mona Lisa Overdrive was the only time I felt that Gibson was really speaking to me, as opposed to running some modern variant of Plotto. I did enjoy in The Difference Engine, which seemed obviously written pairwise like the old Pohl/Kornbluth collaborations, how Gibson started out with his stock hopped-up, tough-talking Cowboy character and how Sterling killed him off. But it degenerated into mush and showed a complete lack of understanding of the Entscheidungsproblem. On the plus side, Ada Byron reminded me a lot of Donna Cox, a real person who used to be big in computing.

I've always considered those kind of debates entertaining but ultimately pointless; I'm trying to imagine Delany and Zelazny sat around discussing guerilla tactics in the early '60s, with Moorcock and Ballard running the British cell...

Heh. But on the other hand, Valis gives a good flavor of what Dick and Tim Powers were like at the time.

I have to say I don't normally go on the number of prizes an author has won, and at first glance Willis's work is not the kind of stuff I'd normally touch anyway. But I'll keep a look out; any book in particular you'd recommend?

Well, Willis isn't for everyone. As I've already pointed out (I think), she's for people who like Wodehouse. It's funny, and it's generally light social commentary. The number of awards only enters into the fact that people should have heard of her.

I'd recommend the short stories, either Impossible Things, which has the short story "Even The Queen," a big FU to people who criticized her for not writing more about "women's issues." "The Last of the Winnebagos" is one of the best stories about dogs I've ever read. Or her book of Christmas tales. I can't remember the name. On the other hand, if you like relentlessly grim, you could start with The Doomsday Book.

Hey, I love Nova and Babel-17! But I've yet to summon up enough stamina to re-read Dhalgren. Btw, do you think it might be fun to start a thread on what SF is, and then I can do my riff on why Margaret Atwood comes across as mad as a bag of spanners?

It's eminently true, but I'd like to hear your spiel anyway. I have an inherent distrust of people who insist that what they write is not SF just so they can get the BJ from mainstream lit-crits. This seems a peculiarly American disease; the British have always been more accepting.

[Wudang]

I like Delany and I read all through Dhalgren and enjoyed it enough but I've never felt the urge to go back and read it and this from someone who's read "Report on Probability A" several times.
Ditto the recommendation for Michael Marshall Smith - I think he's the most exciting new author I've read in years. About time he wrote something else.
It's not published as SF but Jasper Fforde's "The Eyre Affair" is good if you like quirky and literary jokes. The second book is better than the first. The third is in my holding stack.

[asthmatic camel]

I forgot to mention this one. "The Legacy Of Heorot" by Niven, Pournelle & Barnes. A stonkingly good alien adventure.

The sequel "The Dragons Of Heorot", was disappointing. I had to read it though, just to find out what happened.

The same thing hapenned with Brian Herbert & Kevin Andersons' prequels to Dune; OK but nowhere near as good as the originals.

AC

[Bikewer]

For years, I'd seen that Delaney's Dhalgren was considered one of the "classics".
Finally found a copy in a used-book store and read it. Found myself saying, "Uh, what was that all about?"

I tried one of the Dune "prequels", and havn't been tempted to try another. I should have gotten a clue from the fact that the younger Herbert's co-writer is from a graphic novel background...

[Wudang]

I think Dhalgren was a concious exposition of the idea that SF is "ordinary people in extraordinary circumstances" and as such can highlight "the human condition". He was trying to highlight oddities of the minutiae of peoples behaviour by placing mundane behaviour in a surreal context. I think he did rather better with Titan.
FWIW, I've never been quite sure what "the human condition" is. I think I had it once but got better.

[asthmatic camel]

Originally posted by diddidit
~snip~
Clarke is one of my favorites in part because of his apparent lack of verbosity - he has a way of just suggesting something and letting the reader's imagination fill in the details. I'm recalling the lines from The Songs of Distand Earth - something along the lines of "an embarrased cough was heard from an orbiting lab; a minus had been turned into a plus, and the secrets of the universe had been revealed." Little said, much suggested.

I think I need a longer lifespan to get through all the things that look interesting, and this thread ain't helping...

did

Contrarily, this is the problem I have with Clarke, his novels read more like technical manuals than literature. He writes a good story but where is the passion, pain, joy and emotion ? I want to know how Bowman actually feels when he approaches the obelisk in 2001. The author has invited me into the world of his imagination and denied access to certain sections of it in order to frustrate me.

Oh well, the bookshelf calls.

AC

[BillyTK]

Originally posted by epepke


Yes, basically. I get the impression that Gibson gets blank versey when he wants to sound profound.
There is that bit at the end of Neuromancer when they figure out the key to freeing the AIs, but the overall impression I got was that Gibson's narrative gets even sparer than usual when he's got Something Important To Tell Us (and I actually quite like that–like the final scenes of All Tomorrow's Parties, for instance).

We can agree to disagree, but I also get that impression from Heinlein as well.

As for cynicism, I'm using it in the less common sense of calculating. Mona Lisa Overdrive was the only time I felt that Gibson was really speaking to me, as opposed to running some modern variant of Plotto. I did enjoy in The Difference Engine, which seemed obviously written pairwise like the old Pohl/Kornbluth collaborations, how Gibson started out with his stock hopped-up, tough-talking Cowboy character and how Sterling killed him off. But it degenerated into mush and showed a complete lack of understanding of the Entscheidungsproblem. On the plus side, Ada Byron reminded me a lot of Donna Cox, a real person who used to be big in computing.
I'm not too sure if I found The Difference Engine's "alt.Ada" convincing—what is it that Gibson's got about batty European women?— but that could be because I found the whole novel hard going; the colloquialisms felt clumsy and the dialog was a bit too Mary Poppins for my likin', guv'nor!

Well, Willis isn't for everyone. As I've already pointed out (I think), she's for people who like Wodehouse.I've never read any Wodehouse, always found the guy a bit too upper-class for my tastes. My class prejudices aside...

It's funny, and it's generally light social commentary. The number of awards only enters into the fact that people should have heard of her.

I'd recommend the short stories, either Impossible Things, which has the short story "Even The Queen," a big FU to people who criticized her for not writing more about "women's issues." "The Last of the Winnebagos" is one of the best stories about dogs I've ever read. Or her book of Christmas tales. I can't remember the name. On the other hand, if you like relentlessly grim, you could start with The Doomsday Book.
Thanks for the recommendations, I'll keep an eye out for them. "Last of the Winnebagos" sounds familiar, I might've read something by her after all.

It's eminently true, but I'd like to hear your spiel anyway. I have an inherent distrust of people who insist that what they write is not SF just so they can get the BJ from mainstream lit-crits. This seems a peculiarly American disease; the British have always been more accepting.
That's pretty much it; I found Atwood's objection that Oryx... is speculative fiction, not science fiction, wryly amusing in its snobbery and ignorance. I don't know if it's a singularly American disease—in that British SF writers to some extent have "prove" themselves as "proper" writers—but overall (I'd like to believe) good writing gets appreciated as such regardless of its genre. But I do sometimes get the sneaking impression that some of our American and Canadian cousins are more than a little envious of our British class structure and its associated cultural elitism.

[Giz]

Originally posted by wollery

One author who hasn't been mentioned so far is Jack McDevitt. His characters are very 3-dimensional and sympathetic, and the plots and writing style are pretty good.

I second that! "A talent for war" (actually not a gung-ho book) has everything: Mystery, Archeology, Detective, War, History, Politics, Romance, Relationships, Aliens (nicely done).

Slow Lightning etc are very good too.

What do people think of Peter F Hamilton? I think rather highly of his Mindstar trilogy...

[Wudang]

I like Hamilton but you do have to suspend disbelief a bit - something of a return to classic SF there. Good old-fashioned ripping yarns and none the worse for it.
I do like Mandel's veteran character.

[Reaver]

Originally posted by Wudang
I like Hamilton but you do have to suspend disbelief a bit - something of a return to classic SF there. Good old-fashioned ripping yarns and none the worse for it.


I agree infact it was reading the _Nights Dawn_ trilogy that got me back into SF. I've just finsihed _Pandoras Star_ and that's a great read as well.

[CBL4]

There are list of best SF available online.

If you are looking for good, older books I suggest you read David Pringle’s Best 100 book. It ended at 1984. I disagree with a lot of his choices but it is an excellent place to start. There are lots of lesser known books that are great (Limbo, Wild Seed and The Year of the Quiet Sun). Here is a online link that lists his top 100.
http://www.majure.net/best100scifi.htm

Here is another online list:
http://home.austarnet.com.au/petersykes/topscifi/lists_books_rank1.html

My favorites are:
LeGuin – Dispossed
LeGuin – Left Hand of Darkness
Herbert – Dune
Brunner - Stand on Zanzibar
Card – Speaker for the Dead
Stephenson – Snow Crash
Bester – The Demolished Man
Dick – The Man in the High Castle
Spinrad – Bug Jack Baron
Octavia Butler – Wild Seed
Wilhem – Where Late the Sweet Birds Sang
Wilson Tucker – The Year of the Quiet Sun
Bernard Wolfe – Limbo
Asimov – Foundation, etc.
Charles Harness – The Paradox Men
Greg Egan – Permutation City
Zelazny - Amber Series
Farmer - To Your Scattered Bodies Go

CBL

[epepke]

Originally posted by Soapy Sam
Asimov wrote novels set in a human (and Robot) only universe. This was (I felt) a mistake.

This was, by Asimov's own admission, a sop to John Campbell. Campbell was a person who was essentially an idiot but who had an enormous amount of power over what could and could not be published. (Compare Gardner Duzois, who plays much the same role now.)

One of Campbell's dicta was that in a conflict between humans and aliens, humans always had to win. Asimov invented his all-human universe so that he could have some sort of dramatic conflict.

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by Chaos
If you like Space Opera, try the "Honor Harrington" novels by David Weber. The first one is "On Basilisk Station"

Oooh! Excelent choice! It is space-opera, and doesn't have much value otherwise, but a hell of a fun read!

[Hutch]

Originally posted by asthmatic camel
I forgot to mention this one. "The Legacy Of Heorot" by Niven, Pournelle & Barnes. A stonkingly good alien adventure.

The sequel "The Dragons Of Heorot", was disappointing. I had to read it though, just to find out what happened.
AC

IIRC, The Legacy of Heorot was a sequel to their book "Grendel". I wasn't aware that there was a third book out there...guess I'll have to read it, disappointing or not, just to keep up.

And doesn't it seem that the third novel of a continuting series seems to be where they run out of steam? I'm thinking Ringworld, Foundation, Rama, 2001....the third books in those series were all much less compelling than their predecessors, IMHO

[wollery]

Originally posted by Hutch


IIRC, The Legacy of Heorot was a sequel to their book "Grendel". I wasn't aware that there was a third book out there...guess I'll have to read it, disappointing or not, just to keep up.

And doesn't it seem that the third novel of a continuting series seems to be where they run out of steam? I'm thinking Ringworld, Foundation, Rama, 2001....the third books in those series were all much less compelling than their predecessors, IMHO Grendel was a short story about Beowulf Shaeffer, and I don't believe that it had anything to do with Legacy of Heorot, beyond the obvious name connection.

[J Coplen]

Originally posted by alfaniner

If nothing happens in the first 500 pages, ain't nothin' gonna happen...

Egads, man! How can you read that far into a crappy book before quitting? If I'm bored by page 50 I quit.

[lofgoernost]

I enjoyed the WWII era installments of Cryptonomicon, but couldn't really get into the contemporary storyline. To be honest, it's been a few years now and I can't remember if I finished it or not. I had just read Simon Singh's book on cryptography, and without the enjoyment of that bolstering me I may not have gotten as deep into Stephenson's book as I did.

I'll echo Zelazny's Lord of Light, and mention some of the novella length stuff - "A Rose for Ecclesiates" and "He Who Shapes". I also have To Die in Italbar gathering dust on the shelf...have to crack that spine one of these days.

Ender's Game is one of my favorite summer reads. Nice to find a hammock in the shade and just escape into it once every few years.

[epepke]

Originally posted by lofgoernost
I enjoyed the WWII era installments of Cryptonomicon, but couldn't really get into the contemporary storyline. To be honest, it's been a few years now and I can't remember if I finished it or not.

What kept me interested in the modern installments of Cryptonomicon was the mystery of Enoch Root, who seems to me to be an Elijah metaphor.

[blackpriester]

Chaos, my German friend (are you from Hesse, too?), this is what you should read if you appreciate something really DISTURBING from a real-life medical doctor who turned to "close-to-reality-science-fiction":

"The Brains of Rats" by Michael Blumlein.
You can buy it at

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0440213738/102-3423284-1505707?v=glance


I quote:
Reviewer: Robert Chatham (see more about me) from Memphis, TN
I'd never heard of michael blumlein before I read The Brains of Rats. I picked a copy up at a local library - and i've never been so fascinated. Blumlein has a wonderful writing style and his stories are some of the most bizarre pieces of fiction ever. This is one of the best authors of dark fiction that I've ever found.


Was this review helpful to you?



3 of 3 people found the following review helpful:

Astonishing, December 4, 1998
Reviewer: philm4 from Los Angeles
The short stories in Michael Blumlein's "The Brains of Rats" are very difficult to classify by genre. In another sense, they're quite easy to identify; they're all very well written and fascinating. Though the book's spine identifies the collection as "horror," that label applies only to some of the stories. The title story, for example, deals with the questions of gender and gender identity. My personal favorite story is the second, a little opus entitled "Tissue Ablation and Variant Regeneration: A Case Report."

Written in a clinical manner, this story is heavy in medical terminology and describes an operation on a conscious albeit paralyzed man. Blumlein's style here is both complex and powerful. Though the writing seems to attempt to give maximum attention to the clinical nature of the operation, there is a subtext of the feelings of the man on the table; it is almost impossible not to empathize with the patient, to feel his agony to at least some degree.

The stories in "The Brains of Rats" are extraordinarily diverse, from relatively benign fantasy at times to the significantly darker aspects of "Tissue Ablation." Almost without exception, they are fascinating and engrossing. This book is highly recommended for those who enjoy well-written, short fiction of a speculative nature.

[Chaos]

Originally posted by blackpriester
Chaos, my German friend (are you from Hesse, too?),

I am. I live near Frankfurt. The world is small, isn´t it? :)

[Hutch]

Originally posted by wollery
Grendel was a short story about Beowulf Shaeffer, and I don't believe that it had anything to do with Legacy of Heorot, beyond the obvious name connection.

Good catch, it was the creatures that were called Grendels.

But it was the third book set in that storyline, #1 was the Legacy of Heorot, 2nd was Beowulf's children (not bad) and #3 was the Dragon's of Heorot, which I haven't read yet.

[blackpriester]

Salve Chaos,

If you are in the mood, we could meet sometime and have a beer - I'm sure my Wiccan wife would be delighted to meet another "Randi-Geek" ;).

Anyway, we could drop a message to zee_dscherman and start a little Randi-Forum chapter here ;).

- m.

[Chaos]

Originally posted by blackpriester
Salve Chaos,

If you are in the mood, we could meet sometime and have a beer - I'm sure my Wiccan wife would be delighted to meet another "Randi-Geek" ;).

Anyway, we could drop a message to zee_dscherman and start a little Randi-Forum chapter here ;).

- m.

No beer for me, thanks. But we MUST meet some day.

[ASRomatifoso]

Signal to Noise and A Signal Shattered both by Eric Nylund

[QuarkChild]

I just read Ringworld, and it was wonderful.

Does anyone know what Flatlander means? I kept seeing it in the book and not understanding where the term came from.

[Bikewer]

Ah, Ringworld...Great stuff, a classic. Flatlander is, as I recall, someone who dwells planetside, as opposed to a spacer.

I've been looking for a copy of Niven's A World of Ptaavs, which is apparently out of print. A "known space" story, it deals with the sole surviving Slaver.


I'm currently reading Gene Wolfe's new one, Knight. Not really sci-fi, it's more of a fantasy job. Quite good, however.

[Darat]

Originally posted by QuarkChild
I just read Ringworld, and it was wonderful.

Does anyone know what Flatlander means? I kept seeing it in the book and not understanding where the term came from.

I can't remember from the book, but would have thought it is a reference to the classic "Flatland A romance of many dimensions" by Edwin A. Abbott.

You can find the text here: http://www.alcyone.com/max/lit/flatland/

[Fungrim]

I'll chime in here. I don't have anything new to add as quite a lot of authors have been mentioned. But two names where mentioned which I think deserves more attention.

Ken MacLeod. Brilliant SF with a political foundation. But don't be scared off by his personal personal ideas (http://kenmacleod.blogspot.com/), his writing is as good as it gets.

Alistair Reynolds. Not sure if he is available in the US. But you can find him here (http://members.tripod.com/~voxish/Home.html). Dark, almost gothic feeling. Space opera. Brilliant.

[Skeptical Greg]

Originally posted by QuarkChild
I just read Ringworld, and it was wonderful.

...

Make sure you read the two follow ups: Ringworld Engineers and The Ringworld Throne ..

The third one fizzled a bit for me, but I managed to finish it..



Another book I reall enjoyed that has a similar theme was " The World is Round " by Tony Rothman

[Wudang]

I've just finished "Natural history" by Justina Robson - first I've read by her and it's very good.

[QuarkChild]

Originally posted by Darat

I can't remember from the book, but would have thought it is a reference to the classic "Flatland A romance of many dimensions" by Edwin A. Abbott.
I've read "Flatland" and I don't think there's a connection. Having just read Protector, I think Bikewer's idea is correct. Flatlander is a resident of Earth, as opposed to Belter.

[QuarkChild]

Originally posted by Bikewer

I've been looking for a copy of Niven's A World of Ptaavs, which is apparently out of print. A "known space" story, it deals with the sole surviving Slaver.
I think it's in Three Books of Known Space, a collection. I got a copy from Amazon so it must be available somewhere.

[wollery]

"Flatlander" does indeed refer to people born and raised on a planet, as opposed to Lunies (born and raised on the Moon) and Belters (born and raised in the asteroid belt, the children spend their formative years inside a hollowed out rotated asteroid to allow reasonable bone development).

World of Ptaavs is indeed out of print, although it is available used from amazon (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0345345088/102-6833896-6015365?v=glance). I have a copy, but I definitely won't be parted from it. It's a fantastic story and well worth getting hold of.

[Marian]

Thought I'd mention a couple I didn't see mentioned here (though I'll toss out another I love Heinlein, because he's my favorite by far). I'm going purely off memory, so there may be some inaccuracies.

Lois McMaster Bujold: Vorsorkian series (all of them). Starts with Cordelia's Honor (IIRC). GREAT books, better than the Honor Harrington series IMO (if you like the Honor books, you'll love this series)

Christopher Stasheff: more a mix of sci-fi and fantasy, but close enough to include him. I personally enjoyed the Warlock series, but he also co-authored some books with L Sprague de Camp.

Spider Robinson: He's classifed as sci-fi, but I think it's a stretch. It's not *quite* fantasy either. So I think they've just lumped him in. I love the Callahan series, but 'God is an Iron' is great (book of short stories). If you like Heinlein, he's worth reading (though you'll be annoyed at first that he's dubbed Heinlein's successor...though you may find yourself later agreeing. He's also the world's biggest Heinlein fanboy which is saying a lot).

Harry Turtledove: His books are listed as alternative history, but frankly that should be under sci-fi with how he writes. Guns of the South was a GREAT book. His alternative WWII series is also fantastic. If you're a history buff, all of his stuff is great.

Harry Harrison: (I know someone mentioned him) but the Stainless Steel Rat series usually doesn't get a lot of notice. I grew up on those books, so I think they're fantastic. (He also wrote "Make Room! Make Room!" which became the movie Soylent Green. Not a great plug but funny).

Anne McCafferty: Pern series, only the early books. As it goes on and on and on, it kinda craps out. (IMO)

I'm sure I'll add more later as I'll think 'oh man I didn't mention....' :D Also saw a few books posted I'll have to pick up, so thanks! :D

[BillyTK]

Originally posted by Fungrim
Ken MacLeod. Brilliant SF with a political foundation. But don't be scared off by his personal personal ideas (http://kenmacleod.blogspot.com/), his writing is as good as it gets.

Heh. I love MacLeod's personal ideas. It's kind of interesting to read an SF novel by someone who's bought the t-shirt, left-wing politics-wise. It's also interesting that his work is covetted by both lefties and Libertarians. I really enjoyed his Fall revolution trilogy (The Star Fraction; The Stone Canal; The Cassini Division and The Sky Road) of which I'd highly recommend the second and fourth books (there's nop particular order you have to read them in), but whilst his Engines of Light trilogy was entertaining and had some great jokes, other parts felt a little tired and occasionally too sketchy. Admittedly, it was a self-styled space opera, whatever that means in MacLeodian terms.

Originally posted by Wudang
I've just finished "Natural history" by Justina Robson - first I've read by her and it's very good.
She's great. I especially liked the local settings of her first two books–Leeds in her first (Silver Screen) and York in her second (Mappa Mundi); the contrast with the technology she describes elsewhere is the stuff of greatness.

An author I'd to recommend is Trish Sullivan. I've only read two of her books: Someone To Watch Over Me, which is about a new technology which allows people to share each others senses; and Maul, which is set in a future devastated by a male-targetted plague, with a parallel story about teenage girls going shopping, but as envisioned by John Hughes and Paul Verhoeven after a heavy night on the whisky.

Edited to fix tags