Brain Surgeon suspended over soup scandal

[richardm]

Not as exciting as the headline makes it sound. :D Actually, I suppose it's quite an appropriate one, what with the new Dawn of the Dead (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0363547/) movie coming out:

You couldn't make it up. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/leicestershire/3556959.stm)

[Tanja]

I thought I heard it couple of minutes ago on the radio, but as I was only half-listening, I thought no, I must have heard it wrong...

Should I mention that I love croutons? In my last workplace cantine, when I was buying soup, I would take croutons with a bit of soup on top rather than the other way around.

[a_unique_person]

Sounds like a storm in a teacup to me.

[Darat]

(All opinions based on the article Richard referenced– of course if the facts emerge differently then I’m a idiot.)

When I first read this I had a laugh, then I thought “This is ridiculous, a highly paid person, a surgeon who probably is performing life saving or life-enhancing operations is suspended because he may have taken an extra portion of croutons.”

That then made me really think about why I thought the proposition was ridiculous. After all this is an allegation of theft so do I think it is alright to steal something as long as it has a low monetary value? Or is it because he is a surgeon performing life saving operations and the alleged theft weighed against that is insignificant?

It seems to me as if I am thinking the alleged theft would be wrong for the cleaner but OK for a surgeon! That to me seems really, really wrong but I can’t escape that conclusion.

[Tanja]

I think it depends on the circumstances. If he deliberately took a bag of croutons, hid it in his pockets and tried to leave the restaurant, than he really has stolen it and maybe suffers from cleptomania, and should seek psychiatric help. If he just absentmindedly took a scoop of croutons, put them in his soup and forgot to mention them at the till, or if he thought the croutons were complimentary (to my experience, they are usually complimentary), than it is really silly to fire him over it.

Huh, hail with ice the size of croutons just started in my part of London...

[richardm]

I'm inclined to think like Tanja on this one. It would never occur to me in a million years that if I'd bought a bowl of soup, I wouldn't be able to help myself to croutons. And it would certainly not occur to me, as a manager, to suspend someone for such a trivial thing.

I'm not sure I'd think any differently if it was a cleaner doing it to be honest, although we'd probably never have heard about it in the first place.

Of course, this surgeon might have a history of this sort of thing, and have many warnings. Perhaps he has stolen enough croutons to pebbledash his house. Perhaps he has taken the bone saw home to help with assembling his kitchen cabinets. Perhaps he is a gratuitous tomato ketchup abuser.

[Agammamon]

This is a little off-topic but any thread title mentioning surgeon's and food makes me a little nauseous, no matter what it's actually about.

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by a_unique_person
Sounds like a storm in a teacup to me.

A storm in a cup of soup..? :)

[Jaggy Bunnet]

Why suspend him? I fail to see whether or not he stole the croutons is in any way relevant to his job as a surgeon. Deal with the matter through the courts if you want (be ready to be laughed out) or by suing him for the cost of the croutons, but do not prevent him from doing his job.

How would you feel if your brain operation was cancelled because the surgeon was suspended for allegedly stealing a slice of toast?

[Darat]

Originally posted by Jaggy Bunnet
...snip...

How would you feel if your brain operation was cancelled because the surgeon was suspended for allegedly stealing a slice of toast?

Would you say this if it was one of the checkout people at the canteen? (Not that the checkout person should be doing brain surgery ;) )

[Blue Monk]

Originally posted by CFLarsen


A storm in a cup of soup..? :)

Cambell's Tempest in a cup.


Hell, here in Texas we hang low-down crouton thieves.

[richardm]

Originally posted by Darat


Would you say this if it was one of the checkout people at the canteen?

I suppose you could argue that there are very few people qualified to do brain surgery, and removing them from circulation could result in deaths. Consequently, you should only remove them if they have done something of a great magnitude of wrongness.

On the other hand, canteen staff are ten a penny, and throwing the book at them for the slightest hint of an infraction is just and proper, and keeps the rest of them on their toes ;)

[Darat]

Originally posted by richardm


I suppose you could argue that there are very few people qualified to do brain surgery, and removing them from circulation could result in deaths. Consequently, you should only remove them if they have done something of a great magnitude of wrongness.

On the other hand, canteen staff are ten a penny, and throwing the book at them for the slightest hint of an infraction is just and proper, and keeps the rest of them on their toes ;)

While I agree with your principle of management. ;)


Does that mean the more lives you can save the more you can do wrong? What about a scientist that is about to complete work on a vaccine that will save millions of lives a year - should she be allowed to do nearly anything?

[richardm]

Originally posted by Darat


While I agree with your principle of management. ;)


Does that mean the more lives you can save the more you can do wrong? What about a scientist that is about to complete work on a vaccine that will save millions of lives a year - should she be allowed to do nearly anything?

I think one has to be pragmatic about this sort of thing. Taking a handful of croutons is by anyones definition a trivial matter, and hardly seems worthy of making a comment about, let alone a fuss.

Obviously there's a sliding scale with lots of grey areas. A brain surgeon speeding up the M1 should be prosecuted. If he was speeding to get to the hospital to save a patient in an emergency, then it all goes a bit more fuzzy. A canteen checkout assistant will never have that excuse.

Edited to add: and neither of them have an excuse for going down the pub and starting fights, for example.

[69dodge]

Originally posted by richardm
A brain surgeon speeding up the M1 should be prosecuted. If he was speeding to get to the hospital to save a patient in an emergency, then it all goes a bit more fuzzy.I knew I should have become a brain surgeon.

[Jaggy Bunnet]

Originally posted by Darat


Would you say this if it was one of the checkout people at the canteen? (Not that the checkout person should be doing brain surgery ;) )

I think there would be greater concern if it involved someone in a cash handling position being accused of stealing for obvious reasons. However unless they are worried he is going to start stealing bits of brain during operations, I don't think the same consideration applies.

[American]

There's probably more to this story. Like instead of saying, "oops sorry I forgot. Here's 50 cents", maybe he started arguing and swearing loudly. I bet he made a big deal of it and caused a scene.

I wasn't there, but I know it for a FACT.....

[Brown]

Has Inspector Javert been assigned to the case of the missing bread?

[aerocontrols]

Originally posted by Blue Monk


Cambell's Tempest in a cup.


Hell, here in Texas we hang low-down crouton thieves.


Sounds like Paris, Texas, not Austin.

[Virgil]

sounds like a overworked MD needs to do is steal a bag of dried bread to get a couple of days off with full pay.


virgil

[davefoc]

This seems a bit like the Martha Stewart case. Some of the people that were defending her seemed to be saying, "well the crime was about money insignificant compared to her net wealth and the damage done to so many people that she shouldn't be punished". SubGenius is one that comes to mind that seemed to be arguing something like that.

Maybe the argument should go the other way. If Martha Stewart had been punished for stealing croutons along the way she might have been disinclined to reach into the cookie jar for $40K or so that wasn't hers and thereby saved herself a jail stint and a few hundreds of millions of dollars.

[subgenius]

To save time I've already posted some of the critcisms of Clarke and his book here: http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=37443

None of them diminishes the fact that his view deserves some consideration before being dismissed out of hand. Just another disgruntled employee is the oldest one in the books. Is there any possibility that he is actually concerned about the country he served for 30 years? Any?

And it is ridiculous to keep bringing up Clinton because we can only deal with the present. Billy did it too is no justification. Let's agree Clinton was the worst thing on earth.
Now what?

[gnome]

Originally posted by davefoc
This seems a bit like the Martha Stewart case. Some of the people that were defending her seemed to be saying, "well the crime was about money insignificant compared to her net wealth and the damage done to so many people that she shouldn't be punished". SubGenius is one that comes to mind that seemed to be arguing something like that.

Maybe the argument should go the other way. If Martha Stewart had been punished for stealing croutons along the way she might have been disinclined to reach into the cookie jar for $40K or so that wasn't hers and thereby saved herself a jail stint and a few hundreds of millions of dollars.

Yeah but here we're talking about something that is insignificant compared to ANYONE's net worth...

If I were his management, I would simply have made him pay for the croutons and written him up, if it was absolutely necessary... the same as I would do to the janitor, if he did the same thing.

[subgenius]

Sorry for that last one, obviously the wrong thread.

[subgenius]

davefoc: "SubGenius is one that comes to mind that seemed to be arguing something like that."
________

Close but no cigar. I'm just arguing for some perspective on things. And to get something of benefit to society out of her rather than just lock her up.
The government's prosecution of her has, and will cost society far more than the damage she did. You don't let someone get away with a crime but there has to be some balance. Or else you're just poking yourself in the eye with a sharp stick.

[Zep]

<h1>Brain Surgeon suspended over soup scandal!</h1>

http://homepages.irk.ru/the-nr/cafe/cafe_pics/blaine_cage.gif


Or have I read the title wrong or something...?

[Ladewig]

Does that mean the more lives you can save the more you can do wrong? What about a scientist that is about to complete work on a vaccine that will save millions of lives a year - should she be allowed to do nearly anything?

If by "do nearly anything" you mean steal as many as four bags of croutons or throw an empty paper cup at someone or make personal long-distance calls from the lab, then I say yes - that scientist should be allowed to do nearly anything.

[subgenius]

Its all about a sense of perspective or porportion. Otherwise we'd have capital punishment for parking violations.
That would stop that wouldn't it?
The man has now been held up to world wide ridicule.
How many lives has he saved? Will anybody but those he saved and their loved ones remember his good name? I'm suspect he didn't go into this challenging occupation just for the "glory."
That we should be remembered for the worst that we've ever done. Who would endure that judgement?
Where is the love, mercy, redemption, justice?
Judge not, lest thy be judged.