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View Full Version : Loving God took out Japan because of atheism.


headscratcher4
14th March 2011, 01:59 PM
http://gawker.com/#!5781856/young-woman-thanks-god-for-atheist+killing-tsunami

Kind makes one sick...

Lowpro
14th March 2011, 02:01 PM
With any luck, my god will make her drown next time she goes down the Panama City Beach for spring break, after all, my God hates hipsters.

Mister Agenda
14th March 2011, 02:08 PM
Actually took a little longer than I thought it would.

MG1962
14th March 2011, 02:23 PM
Has anyone actually watched the video?

Somthing Witty
14th March 2011, 02:28 PM
Are we still giving god credit for things science has explained? That doesn't seem very supernatural to me...give me a tsunami in Wyoming and I'll consider the possibility.

Mister Agenda
14th March 2011, 02:31 PM
Has anyone actually watched the video?

Can't say I have, at work, you know. Has it been misrepresented?

Gawdzilla
14th March 2011, 02:33 PM
Check the likes/dislikes. Even if this is a poe we can get a feel for how people feel about this kind of thing.

ehcks
14th March 2011, 02:35 PM
Has anyone actually watched the video?

I tried to. She's one of the rare types that are physically painful to listen to.

So I went to her youtube account page. She seems to be running for Queen of the Christian Trolls.

sinclairmcevoy
14th March 2011, 02:36 PM
Has anyone actually watched the video?

I tried twice. Thank God it kept stopping.:p

MG1962
14th March 2011, 02:37 PM
Can't say I have, at work, you know. Has it been misrepresented?

Well it is the strangest thing - the video has stopped three times at 59 seconds, but the slider at the bottom doesn't indicate how long it should be. But in those 59 seconds she doen't reference Japan at all. Just talks about praying for athiests

Gawdzilla
14th March 2011, 02:39 PM
Well it is the strangest thing - the video has stopped three times at 59 seconds, but the slider at the bottom doesn't indicate how long it should be. But in those 59 seconds she doen't reference Japan at all. Just talks about praying for athiests

It's 3:50 or so. She talks about God "taking Japan by the shoulders and shaking it".

MG1962
14th March 2011, 02:41 PM
It's 3:50 or so. She talks about God "taking Japan by the shoulders and shaking it".

Okay so you got it to work - might try it a little later

Gawdzilla
14th March 2011, 02:43 PM
About 11% of the dead will be "Christian". I wonder why they got snuffed with the rest? Maybe they looked back to see if the reactor had blown yet?

ehcks
14th March 2011, 02:43 PM
http://www.youtube.com/user/tamtampamela#p/u/6/7UmotTE-VlY

Youtube link, because I can't get the Gawker player to go right either. And the description:

"PRAISE GOD FOR ANSWERED PRAYERS!!! GOD ANSWERED US AFTER JUST 1 DAY OF FASTING AND PRAYING! HE RATTLED THE ATHEISTS IN JAPAN!! THE REST OF THE WORLD BETTER BE READY! 1 DAY OF PRAYER = 9.0 EARTHQUAKE IN JAPAN! I CAN'T EVEN BEGIN TO IMAGINE WHAT 40 DAYS OF PRAYER WILL DO!"

MG1962
14th March 2011, 03:03 PM
http://www.youtube.com/user/tamtampamela#p/u/6/7UmotTE-VlY

Youtube link, because I can't get the Gawker player to go right either. And the description:

"PRAISE GOD FOR ANSWERED PRAYERS!!! GOD ANSWERED US AFTER JUST 1 DAY OF FASTING AND PRAYING! HE RATTLED THE ATHEISTS IN JAPAN!! THE REST OF THE WORLD BETTER BE READY! 1 DAY OF PRAYER = 9.0 EARTHQUAKE IN JAPAN! I CAN'T EVEN BEGIN TO IMAGINE WHAT 40 DAYS OF PRAYER WILL DO!"

Sort of depends if she keeps up the fasting or not

catsmate1
14th March 2011, 03:06 PM
http://gawker.com/#!5781856/young-woman-thanks-god-for-atheist+killing-tsunami (http://gawker.com/#%215781856/young-woman-thanks-god-for-atheist+killing-tsunami)

Kind makes one sick...
So Scandinavia will be scrubbed clean sometime soon?:rolleyes:

MG1962
14th March 2011, 03:10 PM
About 11% of the dead will be "Christian". I wonder why they got snuffed with the rest? Maybe they looked back to see if the reactor had blown yet?

I would probably like to see a copy of the prayer she said. And if she specifically requested Japan be snotted I would have to question her humanity

Rasmus
14th March 2011, 03:15 PM
I would probably like to see a copy of the prayer she said. And if she specifically requested Japan be snotted I would have to question her humanity


What, the fact that she rejoices afterward isn't enough?

MG1962
14th March 2011, 03:26 PM
What, the fact that she rejoices afterward isn't enough?

I am more interested in her connecting her prayer with the events. Perhaps she said, dear God show the athiests your greatness" next day earthquake hits and she connects the dots

If she said - Dear God please flatten northern Japan with an 8.9 earthquake, I think I would be impressed and encouraging her to go for Randi's million dollars

tsig
14th March 2011, 06:49 PM
I am more interested in her connecting her prayer with the events. Perhaps she said, dear God show the athiests your greatness" next day earthquake hits and she connects the dots

If she said - Dear God please flatten northern Japan with an 8.9 earthquake, I think I would be impressed and encouraging her to go for Randi's million dollars

You would be impressed by a god that would kill thousands on a whim?

ehcks
14th March 2011, 06:55 PM
You would be impressed by a god that would kill thousands on a whim?

I took it that he'd be impressed if a single person's prayer to destroy entire cities because a non-0 percentage of the population is atheist was actually followed through.

shandyjan
14th March 2011, 06:56 PM
You'd think in this day and age with so many countries and people, a god would decide it is time to appear in many corners of the globe, in the same language as the people. Get with the times, gods!

MG1962
14th March 2011, 06:56 PM
You would be impressed by a god that would kill thousands on a whim?

Try reading what wrote, rather than making stuff and having a cheap shot

tsig
14th March 2011, 07:04 PM
I am more interested in her connecting her prayer with the events. Perhaps she said, dear God show the athiests your greatness" next day earthquake hits and she connects the dots

If she said - Dear God please flatten northern Japan with an 8.9 earthquake, I think I would be impressed and encouraging her to go for Randi's million dollars

Try reading what wrote, rather than making stuff and having a cheap shot

There it is.

bokonon
14th March 2011, 07:19 PM
Obvious Poe. Positive comments "likes" also obvious Poe.

About as silly as Jack Chick's portrayal of atheist professors, if you ask me.

Foster Zygote
14th March 2011, 07:45 PM
Obvious Poe.

I have to agree. I mean look at this other video:

PHXziHOo_wQ

MG1962
14th March 2011, 07:56 PM
There it is.

Really? Have a chat with ehcks, he/she seemed to have little trouble understanding the point I was making. Oddly enough you focus on the first part of my post, then go on to ignore the context supplied in the next sentence.

Why do you think that is?

Squid
14th March 2011, 07:57 PM
Um.... what's a POE?

MG1962
14th March 2011, 08:08 PM
Um.... what's a POE?

Good question I was wondering that myself

Joey McGee
14th March 2011, 08:13 PM
Super obvious Poe. I'm embarrassed for all of the people who've taken it seriously. Even PZ Myers totally took the bait! He posted it as if it was real, and then later in the comments said this "Poe was my first thought, too...but then I saw that she had over 40 videos like this. Either she's the real deal, or she's a little too freakishly obsessed with playing this game." Oh my God PeeZee just got pwned by a teenage girl! Yeah, PZ, one of those videos ends with (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHXziHOo_wQ&feature=channel_video_title) ""If God doesn't exist, who wrote the bible? Think about that one..."

So the reason these trolls exist is that they provide a service, they expose the fact that most people care less about being right or wrong about a claim, and more about being better than other people. It's sad that human psychology is shaped in this way but I think the point is that we need to recognize it and move on :D

Foster Zygote
14th March 2011, 08:15 PM
Good question I was wondering that myself

Poe's Law (http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Poe's_Law)

ETA: I still don't quite get the psychology behind such relentless parody (assuming it is. She could just be bat-poop crazy). It strikes me as akin to saying "Ha! The jokes on you! I only **** my pants so that you would have to smell it!".

MG1962
14th March 2011, 08:32 PM
Poe's Law (http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Poe's_Law)

ETA: I still don't quite get the psychology behind such relentless parody (assuming it is. She could just be bat-poop crazy). It strikes me as akin to saying "Ha! The jokes on you! I only **** my pants so that you would have to smell it!".

Interesting, from the Wiki link, it could be a case either way

Skeptic Ginger
14th March 2011, 08:32 PM
She calls it "lentel season" She ecstatic thinking the tsunami is God's way of telling atheists that God exists. And she's ecstatic because the tsunami is her idea of God answering the prayer to show atheists God exists.

In one breath she praises her amazing loving God and in the next she's ecstatic God is amazingly vengeful.

Here's a link to her actual site that plays fine: http://www.youtube.com/user/tamtampamela#p/u/6/7UmotTE-VlY

I say don't waste your time paying attention to this tripe.

I don't think it's a hoax. She spends too much time making videos extolling her love for God and hate for atheists.

MG1962
14th March 2011, 08:35 PM
She calls it "lentel season" She ecstatic thinking the tsunami is God's way of telling atheists that God exists. And she's ecstatic because the tsunami is her idea of God answering the prayer to show atheists God exists.

Thats a good pick up - I assumed it was a term used by one of the smaller Christian groups. Google seems to suggest I am wrong

Joey McGee
14th March 2011, 08:47 PM
I still don't quite get the psychology behind such relentless parody (assuming it is. She could just be bat-poop crazy). It strikes me as akin to saying "Ha! The jokes on you! I only **** my pants so that you would have to smell it!".

Look at how many people who consider themselves skeptics, rationalists and evidentialists are getting pwned by this completely obvious poe. Exposing hypocrisy has always been a fun past-time.

I don't think it's a hoax. She spends too much time making videos extolling her love for God and hate for atheists.

A perfect example! What because she's so persistent in her trolling she must be real? This is how we make final judgments on people? It's only 40 short videos over the course of a year. Did you actually watch any of those videos (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHXziHOo_wQ&feature=channel_video_title)?

bruto
14th March 2011, 09:28 PM
We'll have to wait and see what Pat Robertson has to say about it, I guess.

At least we have Glenn Beck to fall back on:

God -- what God does is God's business, I have no idea. But I'll tell you this: whether you call it Gaia or whether you call it Jesus -- there's a message being sent. And that is, 'Hey, you know that stuff we're doing? Not really working out real well. Maybe we should stop doing some of it.' I'm just sayin'.

Read more: http://swampland.blogs.time.com/2011/03/14/glenn-beck-pulls-a-pat-robertson/#ixzz1GdgVfzi7

Joey McGee
14th March 2011, 09:46 PM
People, there is zero doubt that she is a POE. I just saw a video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EuYGKt-Vky4&feature=channel_video_title) from some genius who thinks he has found her real name and a place where she posts online. Except for that he's found her posts at landoverbaptist.net, (http://www.landoverbaptist.net/showthread.php?t=45447) a troll site! How hilarious!

NOT FUNNY is the fact that some really stupid/mean people thought they had exposed her real address and phone number..., which led to this (http://www.youtube.com/user/pleasecheckyourfacts)

"I am the real Pam Foreman and some disturbed individual incorrectly posted my name and address to this video. I would like everyone to know that when you do stupid things to innocent people, it can be very devastating. I don't know who this girl is or where she lives, but I am positive it's not at my address. We are currently under the watch of the Sheriffs department because some idiots lack of judgement has resulted in mine and my children's lives being threatened. CHECK YOUR FACTS"

Joey McGee
14th March 2011, 11:01 PM
She just admitted it! Wow will all of the people who bought it realize that there's a lesson in all of this or will they further chastise her for fooling them? lol, oh, the internets.

51gMdlBu53k

bokonon
15th March 2011, 12:14 AM
Doesn't look like there will be much opportunity to chastise. She's apparently closed the account.

Skeptic Ginger
15th March 2011, 12:30 AM
Look at how many people who consider themselves skeptics, rationalists and evidentialists are getting pwned by this completely obvious poe. Exposing hypocrisy has always been a fun past-time.



A perfect example! What because she's so persistent in her trolling she must be real? This is how we make final judgments on people? It's only 40 short videos over the course of a year. Did you actually watch any of those videos (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHXziHOo_wQ&feature=channel_video_title)?I did. I watched 3 of them and read some of the notes.

I'm not saying it's 100% certain that it's not a spoof. But I think she looks like a real idiot, not a clever satirist. Do you think she called Lent, lentil, on purpose? Look at the Westboro idiots. It's a similar message.

Skeptic Ginger
15th March 2011, 12:34 AM
She just admitted it! Wow will all of the people who bought it realize that there's a lesson in all of this or will they further chastise her for fooling them? lol, oh, the internets.

51gMdlBu53k
So now we have to wonder if the hate messages she no doubt received caused her to fake a confession or whether the admission was true. I'm not surprised the account was closed. I bet once it hit Gawker she was inundated with hate messages.

So what did the confession say? You're one of the few people to have seen it.

Skeptic Ginger
15th March 2011, 12:36 AM
She just admitted it! Wow will all of the people who bought it realize that there's a lesson in all of this or will they further chastise her for fooling them? lol, oh, the internets.

51gMdlBu53k
What "lesson" would that be? It's not like there are no people who believe such horrible things. Jerry Falwell said this kind of stuff all the time before he died. Pat Robertson still says it.

slingblade
15th March 2011, 12:42 AM
Look at how many people who consider themselves skeptics, rationalists and evidentialists are getting pwned by this completely obvious poe.

I keep seeing this type of post, from several members, and I'm curious as to what sort of fallacy it is. A little help?

Joey McGee
15th March 2011, 12:57 AM
So now we have to wonder if the hate messages she no doubt received caused her to fake a confession or whether the admission was true. I'm not surprised the account was closed. I bet once it hit Gawker she was inundated with hate messages.

So what did the confession say? You're one of the few people to have seen it.

Basically "I've been trolling for a while now and it's been fun but this one has pissed a lot of people off. That was my intention but and I'm getting sick of pizza" (probably meaning her actual info was posted and she was getting pranked) "It was fun internet but I'm coming clean" She seemed a little sad that the joke was over.

What "lesson" would that be? It's not like there are no people who believe such horrible things. Jerry Falwell said this kind of stuff all the time before he died. Pat Robertson still says it.

The moral of the story is that certain people get a little too much fun out of attacking the fundies, to the point we can suspect them of being immature and lacking self-esteem. If you saw the stream of comments popping up video, you'd see just how truly sick some people are when it comes to this. People who wanted to have something to attack accepted the video as real without thinking. I made a sarcastic comment on a video the other day and some "skeptic" railed into me for like 2000 characters because he thought I was serious. There is this rabid, sick, seething mess out there and this troll exposed it.

I'm just into finding out the truth about reality. I get my dopamine fixes from normal, everyday stuff like food, shelter, and family. Laughing at the fundies and feeling smart about myself doesn't give me (much :D) pleasure. That's why I had to unsubscribe from PZ Myers a long time ago. When I found out he'd bought this bs, I wasn't surprised, at all.

Joey McGee
15th March 2011, 01:07 AM
I keep seeing this type of post, from several members, and I'm curious as to what sort of fallacy it is. A little help?

Poe's Law states you can't tell the difference between a fundamentalist and a parody of one because it's just too crazy. This applies better to forum posts; YouTube videos are far harder to fake because of body language, timing, inflection etc. This was an obvious poe for many reasons.

Bill Thompson
15th March 2011, 01:22 AM
Well it is the strangest thing - the video has stopped three times at 59 seconds, but the slider at the bottom doesn't indicate how long it should be. But in those 59 seconds she doen't reference Japan at all. Just talks about praying for athiests

Yep.

but you can download it in realplayer

And, guess what, she does not mention the Tsunami and it cuts off early in real player as well.

All you people who were "made sick" were duped. Ironically, this makes you look like misguided and irrational and prone to jump to conclusions out of "faith", supposition, and passion in your ideology.

bokonon
15th March 2011, 01:30 AM
I keep seeing this type of post, from several members, and I'm curious as to what sort of fallacy it is. A little help?

Well I don't know the fancy high-falutin' Latin word for it, but I'd call it pigeonholing and confirmation bias.

Somebody posted another thread asking if the fundies had attributed the tsunami to God's wrath, so I think the expectation was there that people like tamtampamela would be out there. When she appeared, she hit enough of the talking points that many people were willing to accept her as genuine.

I see the same "can't tell the players without a scorecard" mentality all too often -- the desire to assign a label, to filter statements and streamline thinking rather than actually listening to what another person is saying.

Joey McGee
15th March 2011, 02:04 AM
All you people who were "made sick" were duped. Ironically, this makes you look like misguided and irrational and prone to jump to conclusions out of "faith", supposition, and passion in your ideology.

That just confirms what any naturalistic school of human psychology already knows. Anyone who studies modern science knows that this is human nature. Plus, this is a different scenario from religion and CTs because someone was intentionally hoaxing us, trying hard to make it look real, instead of something we just imagined or believed from someone else who imagined it.

JAStewart
15th March 2011, 03:05 AM
She should give up oxygen for lent.

catsmate1
15th March 2011, 03:52 AM
Well out fellow member DOC claims god did it because there aren't enough xians (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=203566) in Japan.
Of course he gets the numbers wrong.......

RossFW
15th March 2011, 04:08 AM
Well, it fooled thunderf00t:-

http://www.youtube.com/user/thunderf00t?blend=1&ob=4#p/a/u/0/UcikNCsilHk

But I do agree with his comments- why so unlikely some tennager would actually think this, when it is no more agregious than things Faldwell and Robertson said?

Resume
15th March 2011, 04:38 AM
All you people who were "made sick" were duped. Ironically, this makes you look like misguided and irrational and prone to jump to conclusions out of "faith", supposition, and passion in your ideology.

Read Doc's post on this subject if you want some ideological "passion."

Joey McGee
15th March 2011, 04:50 AM
Well, it fooled thunderf00t:-

But I do agree with his comments- why so unlikely some tennager would actually think this, when it is no more agregious than things Faldwell and Robertson said?

It's not unlikely that some teenager would think this, in fact it's certain that some do. However, the chances of them making such a video is almost non-existent. Her opening statement, that because of lent and their prayers for atheists to awaken God caused the earthquake, is obviously made up to make Christians sound bad. It's too much. And she called Lent week Lentil week. Plus, the way she is making it sound like she's extremely happy about all of this happening, I mean come on, very few Christians are that sociopathic to where they can act like that. Robertson and Falwell at least made it sound like they didn't want to be saying it but it was the sad truth.

Ysidro
15th March 2011, 04:50 AM
Poe's Law states you can't tell the difference between a fundamentalist and a parody of one because it's just too crazy. This applies better to forum posts; YouTube videos are far harder to fake because of body language, timing, inflection etc. This was an obvious poe for many reasons.

If it's obvious it isn't an example of Poe's Law, now is it?

Joey McGee
15th March 2011, 05:02 AM
If it's obvious it isn't an example of Poe's Law, now is it?

To clarify, Poe's law is "Without a winking smiley or other blatant display of humor, it is impossible to create a parody of Fundamentalism that SOMEONE won't mistake for the real thing."

In this case, it seems to me, there should have been far fewer SOMEONES than there were.

Gawdzilla
15th March 2011, 05:03 AM
Am I wrong, or has the Youtube copy been taken down?

Joey McGee
15th March 2011, 05:06 AM
Am I wrong, or has the Youtube copy been taken down?

She closed her account, in the coming clean video she mentioned pizzas being delivered to her house, people are threatening her life in the comments etc.

Here's the repost

jP-sSeqPywI

Aepervius
15th March 2011, 05:43 AM
Well this one is does not seem to e a parody:

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=203566

Joey McGee
15th March 2011, 06:12 AM
I caught this comment at richarddawkins.net (http://richarddawkins.net/videos/602680-god-is-so-good/comments?page=6#comment_603037) and it sums it pretty well...

***

I believe this is my first official post on the site, I've been lurking for a while now. My wife is Japanese and right now the disaster in Japan has us nearly emotionally spent. Our family is safe for the time being but the Fukushima nuclear plant situation is capable of affecting them due to their proximity to it. That being said, on a purely emotional level, I find this video utterly disgusting. But on a rational one not only do I see her point, and I'm actually glad she did it.

We all know that there are religious people out there right now who are thinking exactly this. The only reason they've probably not said it yet is because they know the backlash they'd receive for doing it, especially at this point in time. A couple of posters at this site have said they hear this exact kind of crazy talk regularly not only from religious sites but in their owns homes. Her speech and mannerisms are so on point that others here actually believed she was being honest due to past experiences they've had with people like that. Even though I find it emotionally horrendous i'm willing to put that aside if that video opens someone's eyes to the immoral thought processes the religious mind can breed.

A part of me is a little saddened that she was forced to close her YouTube account. I honestly wish her the best.

westprog
15th March 2011, 10:08 AM
From previous experience, we know that when a disaster like the Tsunami strikes, there will be

Atheists querying how such things are compatible with a loving god.
People saying that the victims had it coming in some way for religious reasons.
People on JREF looking for religious people blaming the victims in order that they could say how horrible they, and possibly all religious people are.


And it will all demonstrate some important lesson.

Olowkow
15th March 2011, 10:15 AM
ITunes is taking donations to the Red Cross, using one's Apple account. Very easy. Just open ITunes Store, and click Red Cross Donate. You might have to try it a few times. Very busy I guess.

Skeptic Ginger
15th March 2011, 10:48 AM
To clarify, Poe's law is "Without a winking smiley or other blatant display of humor, it is impossible to create a parody of Fundamentalism that SOMEONE won't mistake for the real thing."

In this case, it seems to me, there should have been far fewer SOMEONES than there were.

If you saw the Westboro idiots you could say the same thing about them, an obvious satire. You'd be wrong. I don't have an issue that this turned out to be an idiot who thought it was funny, but I do disagree we're all idiots because we thought it was more likely real than not. There is no "lesson" here. No one is especially gullible.

Some people are sick. Some people imitate sick people. There are no raging atheists who believe false things about those loving Christians. People believe the stuff that idiot was saying. If we didn't have examples, like Falwell and Robertson, you'd have a point. But we do have those examples and you don't have a point. Nothing to see here folks, move along.

Bill Thompson
15th March 2011, 10:53 AM
Actually, what it seems we have here is an atheist exploiting a tragedy to further their agenda.

So are people here saying that it is ok for an atheist to make a deceptive and misleading blog because the tsunami is a perfect opportunity to expoit and trick people into their way of thinking?

She should give up oxygen for lent.
Why is that?

Let me guess. "Oh, I didn't know that the blog was fake. I was joining the sheep herd."

Resume
15th March 2011, 11:14 AM
Actually, what it seems we have here is an atheist exploiting a tragedy to further their agenda.

So are people here saying that it is ok for an atheist to make a deceptive and misleading blog because the tsunami is a perfect opportunity to expoit and trick people into their way of thinking?


Why is that?

Let me guess. "Oh, I didn't know that the blog was fake. I was joining the sheep herd."

Checked out DOC's thread on this subject yet?

Magyar
15th March 2011, 11:16 AM
Basically "I've been trolling for a while now and it's been fun but this one has pissed a lot of people off. That was my intention but and I'm getting sick of pizza" (probably meaning her actual info was posted and she was getting pranked) "It was fun internet but I'm coming clean" She seemed a little sad that the joke was over.



The moral of the story is that certain people get a little too much fun out of attacking the fundies, to the point we can suspect them of being immature and lacking self-esteem. If you saw the stream of comments popping up video, you'd see just how truly sick some people are when it comes to this. People who wanted to have something to attack accepted the video as real without thinking. I made a sarcastic comment on a video the other day and some "skeptic" railed into me for like 2000 characters because he thought I was serious. There is this rabid, sick, seething mess out there and this troll exposed it.

I'm just into finding out the truth about reality. I get my dopamine fixes from normal, everyday stuff like food, shelter, and family. Laughing at the fundies and feeling smart about myself doesn't give me (much :D) pleasure. That's why I had to unsubscribe from PZ Myers a long time ago. When I found out he'd bought this bs, I wasn't surprised, at all.




First - The reason that she and others like her who do these paradies are not funny, like racist and sexist jokes, is because no matter how depraved and or over the top you go with it, there ARE real people who REALLY believe that.


Second - Hypocrite much? I mean really, you are doing exactly what you accuse people of, but with far less reason. You see many atheists, and other "less desirables" in the eyes of the buybull crowd - gays for example. Are subjected to real hate from real people who sound exactly like this video. Until proven otherwise the presumption based on previous experience is that it is what it claims to be.

IMST
15th March 2011, 11:21 AM
Further proving Poe's Law, here's a pastor saying almost exactly the same thing:
http://joemygod.blogspot.com/2011/03/wingnut-pastor-proves-poes-law-god-told.html
There will be a shaking coming to Japan that will bring them to their knees. This shaking will change the industry of the nation. Japan has been built upon a fault line linked with a deep wounding from the past.
It goes on and on.

Joey McGee
15th March 2011, 11:33 AM
If you saw the Westboro idiots you could say the same thing about them, an obvious satire. You'd be wrong. I don't have an issue that this turned out to be an idiot who thought it was funny, but I do disagree we're all idiots because we thought it was more likely real than not. There is no "lesson" here. No one is especially gullible.

Some people are sick. Some people imitate sick people. There are no raging atheists who believe false things about those loving Christians. People believe the stuff that idiot was saying. If we didn't have examples, like Falwell and Robertson, you'd have a point. But we do have those examples and you don't have a point. Nothing to see here folks, move along.

Hey just because you got fooled by a poe doesn't mean I think you're an idiot. The point is that way too many people get way too much pleasure out of bashing the fundies, some far worse than others. I think this is why she made the video, not to troll the believers. So, the question was, what was her point.

Joey McGee
15th March 2011, 11:42 AM
First - The reason that she and others like her who do these paradies are not funny, like racist and sexist jokes, is because no matter how depraved and or over the top you go with it, there ARE real people who REALLY believe that.

YOU don't find it funny. SO? There are a lot of ways to interpret it. As evidenced by the man whose family were affected but saw her point, some people don't agree with you that it's some kind of horrible thing.


Second - Hypocrite much? I mean really, you are doing exactly what you accuse people of, but with far less reason. You see many atheists, and other "less desirables" in the eyes of the buybull crowd - gays for example. Are subjected to real hate from real people who sound exactly like this video. Until proven otherwise the presumption based on previous experience is that it is what it claims to be.


The only pleasure I'm getting out of this is being right about my thesis, that is that a lot of people take way too much pleasure and are way too easily led into hysterical attacks and ridicule. If I thought this girl was real, I'd be extremely sad for her and her family. I can't see getting angry or self-righteous about it, it seems too self-serving. I'm probably a tad hypocritical but this is a design flaw of the human brain more than corruption on my part.

It doesn't matter, now that everyone knows they were hoaxed, they've shifted to bashing her for having poor taste. I don't accept either outrage as being fruitful or necessary.

The troll wins. :p

Bill Thompson
15th March 2011, 11:55 AM
Checked out DOC's thread on this subject yet?
Learned how to post links in forums yet?

PGH
15th March 2011, 12:04 PM
A few things:

Well I learned what POE means. Way to slander the name of a great author.

Now you guys generally seem smarter than I am so I have to ask why we consider things like POE or Godwin's Law as "laws"? These seem to me to just be wise-acre labels for behavior. Calling them LAWS kind of cheapens gravity and physics, don't you think? I've seen people use Godwin's Law to try to legitimately poke holes in someone's sound theory. To me that's no different than saying "LOLcatz proves you wrong!"

Now onto the case at hand I see no reason why anyone wouldn't take her seriously. As has been stated it's not like there aren't serious believers out there who hold the same position.

And if it's a joke I'm sorry but it's the kind of joke I hate. Purely at someone's expense. To me it's the same as asking someone directions, they tell you to take a left when they know it's supposed to be a right, and they think they "pulled a fast one on you". Why wouldn't I believe what someone is telling me with all sincerity? It's not like I know the person. If someone starts espousing their views and I respond in kind why am I the one made to look foolish when they say, "I just made all that up. I don't believe any of what I just told you."

IMST
15th March 2011, 12:10 PM
A few things:

Well I learned what POE means. Way to slander the name of a great author.
From RationalWiki: Poe's Law was originally formulated by Nathan Poe in August 2005.
It doesn't slander Edgar Allen Poe, nor does it have anything to do with him. That's like saying the tendency to put -gate at the end of scandal names is slandering Bill Gates.

Now you guys generally seem smarter than I am so I have to ask why we consider things like POE or Godwin's Law as "laws"? These seem to me to just be wise-acre labels for behavior. Calling them LAWS kind of cheapens gravity and physics, don't you think? I've seen people use Godwin's Law to try to legitimately poke holes in someone's sound theory. To me that's no different than saying "LOLcatz proves you wrong!"
Godwin's law is about using nazis to prove your point. Maybe you could provide an example of someone with a sound theory that's being unfairly challenged by Godwin. Also note that Godwin's law states that over time threads become more likely to go to argumentem ad nazi, not that anyone Godwining is necessarily wrong.

Mister Agenda
15th March 2011, 12:15 PM
Double post.

Mister Agenda
15th March 2011, 12:16 PM
A few things:

Well I learned what POE means. Way to slander the name of a great author.

Now you guys generally seem smarter than I am so I have to ask why we consider things like POE or Godwin's Law as "laws"? These seem to me to just be wise-acre labels for behavior. Calling them LAWS kind of cheapens gravity and physics, don't you think? I've seen people use Godwin's Law to try to legitimately poke holes in someone's sound theory. To me that's no different than saying "LOLcatz proves you wrong!"

Now onto the case at hand I see no reason why anyone wouldn't take her seriously. As has been stated it's not like there aren't serious believers out there who hold the same position.

And if it's a joke I'm sorry but it's the kind of joke I hate. Purely at someone's expense. To me it's the same as asking someone directions, they tell you to take a left when they know it's supposed to be a right, and they think they "pulled a fast one on you". Why wouldn't I believe what someone is telling me with all sincerity? It's not like I know the person. If someone starts espousing their views and I respond in kind why am I the one made to look foolish when they say, "I just made all that up. I don't believe any of what I just told you."

It's not the originator of the idea's fault that their last name was Poe. Poe's Law seems to be a bit sounder than Godwin's, I don't know of any legitimate exceptions to it, that is, I've never seen anything so over the top when it comes to religious fundamentalism that someone wouldn't take it seriously.

I agree totally with your last paragraph, though, PGH. Welcome to the forum!

PGH
15th March 2011, 12:31 PM
I was just joking around about slandering Poe. I know it has nothing to do with him.

Mister Agenda
15th March 2011, 12:35 PM
I was just joking around about slandering Poe. I know it has nothing to do with him.

Ironically, that was kind of like a Poe, only not in a religious context. :D

PGH
15th March 2011, 12:39 PM
It really was. Do you guys recognize orange as the sarcasm font like at my other forum?

Oh yeah, inflection is sooo interesting. My name's Abed, I NEVER watch tv!


Community fans? Anyone?

Gawdzilla
15th March 2011, 12:47 PM
From previous experience, we know that when a disaster like the Tsunami strikes, there will be

Atheists querying how such things are compatible with a loving god.
People saying that the victims had it coming in some way for religious reasons.
People on JREF looking for religious people blaming the victims in order that they could say how horrible they, and possibly all religious people are.


And it will all demonstrate some important lesson.

Re #1: I never do that, because it's no more a question for me than why the tooth fairy didn't leave me any money when I got six front teeth knocked out.

LarianLeQuella
15th March 2011, 01:14 PM
Learned how to post links in forums yet?


Someone already did before Resume's post:
Well out fellow member DOC claims god did it because there aren't enough xians (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=203566) in Japan.
Of course he gets the numbers wrong.......

Learn how to read a thread yet?

Resume
15th March 2011, 01:14 PM
Learned how to post links in forums yet?

Can you not find it without a link?

Mister Agenda
15th March 2011, 01:16 PM
It really was. Do you guys recognize orange as the sarcasm font like at my other forum?

Oh yeah, inflection is sooo interesting. My name's Abed, I NEVER watch tv!


Community fans? Anyone?

Sorry, I live a sheltered life. I am willing to learn that orange means sarcasm though, maybe it will catch on here.

westprog
15th March 2011, 02:47 PM
Re #1: I never do that, because it's no more a question for me than why the tooth fairy didn't leave me any money when I got six front teeth knocked out.

No, most atheists and religious people don't react that way. It's behaviour that's quite unusual in the Real World (TM) but common on JREF.

Not sure about the "Serve 'em right for Pearl" people. They could have any belief system really.

Resume
15th March 2011, 02:53 PM
No, most atheists and religious people don't react that way. It's behaviour that's quite unusual in the Real World (TM) but common on JREF.

Not sure about the "Serve 'em right for Pearl" people. They could have any belief system really.

Actually, out in the "real world" today, I conversed with a pentecostalist who advised me that god took care of the "idolators" in Japan. This was opinion shared by her daughter, husband, pastor and probably her congregation. I think this point of view is more common that you might care to examine.

westprog
15th March 2011, 02:55 PM
Actually, out in the "real world" today, I conversed with a pentecostalist who advised me that god took care of the "idolators" in Japan. This was opinion shared by her daughter, husband, pastor and probably her congregation. I think this point of view is more common that you might care to examine.

Would I be right in guessing that you live in the United States?

Halfcentaur
15th March 2011, 02:56 PM
If you saw the Westboro idiots you could say the same thing about them, an obvious satire. You'd be wrong. I don't have an issue that this turned out to be an idiot who thought it was funny, but I do disagree we're all idiots because we thought it was more likely real than not. There is no "lesson" here. No one is especially gullible.

Some people are sick. Some people imitate sick people. There are no raging atheists who believe false things about those loving Christians. People believe the stuff that idiot was saying. If we didn't have examples, like Falwell and Robertson, you'd have a point. But we do have those examples and you don't have a point. Nothing to see here folks, move along.

I do get tired of people acting as if trolls are all obvious and there's an issue if you "fall for it". It's easy to troll people, and it's easy to do it indistinguishably from the real thing as well. All it takes is a desire to fool people. I could be doing it right now and in reality I actually think people are stupid for falling for trolls, but I am not. There is no power in trolling, there is no shame in being trolled. I'm not going to become a jaded cynic who sees motive in everything just in case I'm being aggravated in some childish test. I think it's just as stupid to chastise people for being trolled as it is for trolling.

Anyone can call wolf. Without a reputation to gauge someone on, beyond healthy and general skepticism, I'm not going to suspect a troll is hiding.
I never watched this video the girl posted, but I wasn't surprised at all and had no reason to think she was lying. I see religious people making the same statements all the time. Without watching the girl for signs of exaggeration or satire, of course I am going to think she's just another DOC.

Halfcentaur
15th March 2011, 02:57 PM
Actually, what it seems we have here is an atheist exploiting a tragedy to further their agenda.



Is not believing in Santa Claus an agenda for you?

Bill Thompson
15th March 2011, 03:24 PM
God is the god of the universe. He has every right to take life away whenever He sees fit. It is not ours to question. This tsunami shows that the Christian view of God is the proper view of God and the one true religion. Islam required people to actually go out and perform mass killing on 8-11-2001. And we are supposed to assume that means Islam is valid? The very fact that the Christian god performed His glorious wrath on Japan is living and proof that Christianity is true. Now that you understand this, it is time for you to accept Jesus Christ into your life. All you need to to is to pray and open your heart unto him and accept him as his one true savior. Say this prayer. Dear God in heaven, I come to you in the name of Jesus. I acknowledge to You that I am a sinner, and I am sorry for my sins and the life that I have lived; I need your forgiveness. I believe that your only begotten Son Jesus Christ shed His precious blood on the cross at Calvary and died for my sins, and I am now willing to turn from my sin. You said in Your Holy Word, Romans 10:9 that if we confess the Lord our God and believe in our hearts that God raised Jesus from the dead, we shall be saved. Right now I confess Jesus as the Lord of my soul. With my heart, I believe that God raised Jesus from the dead. This very moment I accept Jesus Christ as my own personal Savior and according to His Word, right now I am saved. Thank you Jesus for your unlimited grace which has saved me from my sins. I thank you Jesus that your grace never leads to license, but rather it always leads to repentance. Therefore Lord Jesus transform my life so that I may bring glory and honor to you alone and not to myself. Thank you Jesus for dying for me and giving me eternal life. Amen. Should I say more? Maybe I should stop now and tell you that this post I have made here is a test to see if you passionate wackos will reply to this particular post before reading it completely and find the part where I tell you I just made this post to test you and that I am not serious at all in this post. So lets see now how many irrational wackos repond to this post without "getting it".

Bill Thompson
15th March 2011, 03:26 PM
Is not believing in Santa Claus an agenda for you?

Yes it is. I fight the Clausians and the Santaites often.

Resume
15th March 2011, 03:42 PM
Would I be right in guessing that you live in the United States?

Yes.

Bill Thompson
15th March 2011, 04:50 PM
If you read Genisis in the original Hebrew you will see that the tree of knowledge is really "The Tree of Knowledge of Right and Wrong" and eating from this tree gives you knowledge of right and wrong. So God's test was unfair. One cannot judge or condem a child that does not know right from wrong. So the premise of this thread is that God is a loving God is baseless. I am just saying, if you belive in a Biblical God and all.

Joey McGee
15th March 2011, 07:59 PM
I do get tired of people acting as if trolls are all obvious and there's an issue if you "fall for it".

That's not the issue, the issue is how people are reacting, why they are overreacting, and how we could be acting better as a society. You have one side of the spectrum wanting to rape and kill the person, the other side of the spectrum feeling sorry for the deluded with a desire to debunk and educate to bring about a better world, a positive approach.

If you're not perfectly on the positive end of my spectrum that only means you're human, but this troll exposed the fact that a lot of people are way too far down the negative side. I'm not saying we should let them get away with it, or not be angry, but I am saying people could be wiser and more constructive. If they were, trolls like this would starve and die.

Skeptic Ginger
15th March 2011, 11:15 PM
Hey just because you got fooled by a poe doesn't mean I think you're an idiot. The point is that way too many people get way too much pleasure out of bashing the fundies, some far worse than others. I think this is why she made the video, not to troll the believers. So, the question was, what was her point.

I'm not really concerned what you think of me. I was fooled by the Landover Baptist at first, like a lot of people. So what?

My issue with your comments is because you are overconfidently asserting it was obvious she wasn't Westboro-lite. You can't say that. You can only say how it appeared to you. You cannot point to anything specific that was evidence we ignored. And you have no evidence I've seen so far that says people are primed to get sucked in to such a bad joke. That's what I'm challenging you on.

Skeptic Ginger
15th March 2011, 11:26 PM
....
People on JREF looking for religious people blaming the victims in order that they could say how horrible they, and possibly all religious people are.

....This is the same crap I'm complaining about Joey McGee saying. It's a defensive comment from believers who don't like the fact some of their ilk are awful people. It's defensive because some Christians don't like to be challenged with the hypocrisy of the God is Love nonsense.

Instead of addressing the evidence, you are dismissing the evidence as somehow just bias against believers.

slingblade
16th March 2011, 12:50 AM
Maybe I should stop now and tell you that this post I have made here is a test to see if you passionate wackos will reply to this particular post before reading it completely and find the part where I tell you I just made this post to test you and that I am not serious at all in this post. So lets see now how many irrational wackos repond to this post without "getting it".

Apparently, I read it completely.

Joey McGee
16th March 2011, 01:06 AM
I'm not really concerned what you think of me. I was fooled by the Landover Baptist at first, like a lot of people. So what?

My issue with your comments is because you are overconfidently asserting it was obvious she wasn't Westboro-lite. You can't say that. You can only say how it appeared to you. You cannot point to anything specific that was evidence we ignored. And you have no evidence I've seen so far that says people are primed to get sucked in to such a bad joke. That's what I'm challenging you on.

There are undoubtedly honest people that were unfairly fooled. There are undoubtedly people that are naive when it comes to the internet and the trolls that live in it. I can see that you're missing my point, which I summarized in my last comment. I'm talking about a general tendency.

What's so outlandish about postulating that people want these things to be real to the point of being subconsciously blinded so they can get a powerful cathartic experience out of it? This is what we charge the religionists with, this is accepted as human nature.

I could have told you from her channel friends, 1/2 of which were Christian satire channels. I could have told you by googling her username where she'd been exposed as a troll months earlier. I could have pointed to phrases in other clips (unavailable for citation atm) that you'd have to be uneducated to take seriously. This is what I was looking for. No one else looked!

Other people seemed to say "Wow she's got 40 videos she must be real!" And passed the virus along. How much of that was just being naive, and how much of that was wishful thinking, it depends on the person. I guess it's all arguable up until a point, but I'm no longer interested in going there.

Peace be with you.

Puppycow
16th March 2011, 01:56 AM
Has this troll received death threats for her trouble?

The fact that she was just trolling only makes it worse, if anything.

Clever of her to make a video of herself so she can be identified.

Is she employed? Does she want to be employed in the future? What does her employer or potential employer think of this?

slingblade
16th March 2011, 02:14 AM
A few things:

Well I learned what POE means. Way to slander the name of a great author.

Way to assume, wrongly. :p

Now you guys generally seem smarter than I am so I have to ask why we consider things like POE or Godwin's Law as "laws"? These seem to me to just be wise-acre labels for behavior. Calling them LAWS kind of cheapens gravity and physics, don't you think?

Right. And let's not forget Murphy.

They are labels for behavior, specifically for behavior that has been observed to rarely deviate from a specific course, once initiated.

How in hell does one cheapen gravity or physics, anyway?

catsmate1
16th March 2011, 03:26 AM
Learned how to post links in forums yet?
I linked to it in post 50 of this thread.

God is the god of the universe. He has every right to take life away whenever He sees fit. It is not ours to question. This tsunami shows that the Christian view of God is the proper view of God and the one true religion. Islam required people to actually go out and perform mass killing on 8-11-2001. And we are supposed to assume that means Islam is valid? The very fact that the Christian god performed His glorious wrath on Japan is living and proof that Christianity is true. Now that you understand this, it is time for you to accept Jesus Christ into your life. All you need to to is to pray and open your heart unto him and accept him as his one true savior. Say this prayer. Dear God in heaven, I come to you in the name of Jesus. I acknowledge to You that I am a sinner, and I am sorry for my sins and the life that I have lived; I need your forgiveness. I believe that your only begotten Son Jesus Christ shed His precious blood on the cross at Calvary and died for my sins, and I am now willing to turn from my sin. You said in Your Holy Word, Romans 10:9 that if we confess the Lord our God and believe in our hearts that God raised Jesus from the dead, we shall be saved. Right now I confess Jesus as the Lord of my soul. With my heart, I believe that God raised Jesus from the dead. This very moment I accept Jesus Christ as my own personal Savior and according to His Word, right now I am saved. Thank you Jesus for your unlimited grace which has saved me from my sins. I thank you Jesus that your grace never leads to license, but rather it always leads to repentance. Therefore Lord Jesus transform my life so that I may bring glory and honor to you alone and not to myself. Thank you Jesus for dying for me and giving me eternal life. Amen. Should I say more? Maybe I should stop now and tell you that this post I have made here is a test to see if you passionate wackos will reply to this particular post before reading it completely and find the part where I tell you I just made this post to test you and that I am not serious at all in this post. So lets see now how many irrational wackos repond to this post without "getting it".Do you actually believe this rubbish?

slingblade
16th March 2011, 03:34 AM
Do you actually believe this rubbish?

I can't believe....read the part of it I quoted, Cats. I was trying to prevent this, um, sorry, but rather obvious and hamhanded "gotcha" Bill was attempting. I wasn't successful. :(

Rasmus
16th March 2011, 03:39 AM
How in hell does one cheapen gravity or physics, anyway?

Well, it depends. For Gravity, there is the "Both feet firmly on the ground" costumer loyalty scheme with as much as 10% off of any purchase. If you're not a regular customer, you should look for advertisements that announce the popular "Buy 6G get 3.80665G free" specials.

Cheap physics in general is a different sort of things. As with everything, quality comes at a price. Granted, you can save a mint if allow for a 2% variation over time in your physical constants or don't got for the extended warranty. I guess it depends on what you want to do with your universe and how big you expect your average Goldie Locks Zone to be. Different strokes for different folks, as they say - but personally, I'd like me a quality universe. Ideally, I just don't want to have to deal with it on a daily basis once it's up and running,

Mashuna
16th March 2011, 03:40 AM
I can't believe....read the part of it I quoted, Cats. I was trying to prevent this, um, sorry, but rather obvious and hamhanded "gotcha" Bill was attempting. I wasn't successful. :(

Hey, I was just impressed you managed to get to the end of his wall-o-text. Bill's attempt to show that people don't fully read things that are in a basically unreadable format ran up against your proofreading skills. :)

Halfcentaur
16th March 2011, 03:49 AM
God is the god of the universe. He has every right to take life away whenever He sees fit. It is not ours to question. This tsunami shows that the Christian view of God is the proper view of God and the one true religion. Islam required people to actually go out and perform mass killing on 8-11-2001. And we are supposed to assume that means Islam is valid? The very fact that the Christian god performed His glorious wrath on Japan is living and proof that Christianity is true. Now that you understand this, it is time for you to accept Jesus Christ into your life. All you need to to is to pray and open your heart unto him and accept him as his one true savior. Say this prayer. Dear God in heaven, I come to you in the name of Jesus. I acknowledge to You that I am a sinner, and I am sorry for my sins and the life that I have lived; I need your forgiveness. I believe that your only begotten Son Jesus Christ shed His precious blood on the cross at Calvary and died for my sins, and I am now willing to turn from my sin. You said in Your Holy Word, Romans 10:9 that if we confess the Lord our God and believe in our hearts that God raised Jesus from the dead, we shall be saved. Right now I confess Jesus as the Lord of my soul. With my heart, I believe that God raised Jesus from the dead. This very moment I accept Jesus Christ as my own personal Savior and according to His Word, right now I am saved. Thank you Jesus for your unlimited grace which has saved me from my sins. I thank you Jesus that your grace never leads to license, but rather it always leads to repentance. Therefore Lord Jesus transform my life so that I may bring glory and honor to you alone and not to myself. Thank you Jesus for dying for me and giving me eternal life. Amen. Should I say more? Maybe I should stop now and tell you that this post I have made here is a test to see if you passionate wackos will reply to this particular post before reading it completely and find the part where I tell you I just made this post to test you and that I am not serious at all in this post. So lets see now how many irrational wackos repond to this post without "getting it".

It was obvious, you're always talking about your special pantheist god, as if parallel universes and a complicated and weird universe = God. It was wooden and forced, so without a history I would have either suspected you of goading or of being a living cartoon character. But you're right, there are people who will probably take your bait, but I fail to see what point this proves. You come to a skeptical forum with a community of atheists and actually use straw man arguments all the time as if it's actually a logical opinion worth engaging you over, I don't think you're in any position to be accusing others of being overly passionate, naive, or brash. And from what I've seen you often ignore the responses you are given, frequently hit and run posting.

Halfcentaur
16th March 2011, 03:50 AM
Yes it is. I fight the Clausians and the Santaites often.

And do you have faith that Zeus is not only not a real God, but that he was never once a real God in the time of his followers, impregnating mortal women in the form of various animals?

westprog
16th March 2011, 05:39 AM
This is the same crap I'm complaining about Joey McGee saying. It's a defensive comment from believers who don't like the fact some of their ilk are awful people. It's defensive because some Christians don't like to be challenged with the hypocrisy of the God is Love nonsense.

Instead of addressing the evidence, you are dismissing the evidence as somehow just bias against believers.

Yeah, right. What we have is an objective, reasoned look at the evidence in order to discover the truth? Do me a favour.

It was quite clear that as soon as the disaster hit, that there would be people looking for Christians saying something stupid and offensive. They wouldn't be googling "Christian group holds bake sale for Japan". They'd be googling for "Idiot Christian says Japs had it coming". And since that's what they were looking for, that's what they'd find. And this would then be cited as evidence that Christians are a bunch of hypocrites.

And when this is pointed out, I'm supposed to not like the fact that some Christians are awful people? Guess what, I knew that already. There are a lot of awful people out there.

westprog
16th March 2011, 05:45 AM
There are undoubtedly honest people that were unfairly fooled. There are undoubtedly people that are naive when it comes to the internet and the trolls that live in it. I can see that you're missing my point, which I summarized in my last comment. I'm talking about a general tendency.

What's so outlandish about postulating that people want these things to be real to the point of being subconsciously blinded so they can get a powerful cathartic experience out of it? This is what we charge the religionists with, this is accepted as human nature.

I could have told you from her channel friends, 1/2 of which were Christian satire channels. I could have told you by googling her username where she'd been exposed as a troll months earlier. I could have pointed to phrases in other clips (unavailable for citation atm) that you'd have to be uneducated to take seriously. This is what I was looking for. No one else looked!

Other people seemed to say "Wow she's got 40 videos she must be real!" And passed the virus along. How much of that was just being naive, and how much of that was wishful thinking, it depends on the person. I guess it's all arguable up until a point, but I'm no longer interested in going there.

Peace be with you.

The wish to be better than other people is very powerful. One way is to be just better than everyone else - but that's difficult to believe. However, belonging to a group that is "objectively" better than people who don't belong to that group - that's easier to believe.

Much of what's posted on JREF poses as a search for truth and enlightenment, but is really just a way for people to say "look what a nice person I am compared to this guy - and everyone else who thinks like him".

Skeptic Ginger
16th March 2011, 09:47 AM
...
What's so outlandish about postulating that people want these things to be real to the point of being subconsciously blinded so they can get a powerful cathartic experience out of it? This is what we charge the religionists with, this is accepted as human nature. (emphasis mine) On what evidence do you base this claim?


...I could have told you from her channel friends, 1/2 of which were Christian satire channels. I could have told you by googling her username where she'd been exposed as a troll months earlier. I could have pointed to phrases in other clips (unavailable for citation atm) that you'd have to be uneducated to take seriously. This is what I was looking for. No one else looked!

Other people seemed to say "Wow she's got 40 videos she must be real!" And passed the virus along. How much of that was just being naive, and how much of that was wishful thinking, it depends on the person. I guess it's all arguable up until a point, but I'm no longer interested in going there.Rather than "wishful thinking" which I find to be a commonly spouted fallacious argument (like the idiotic claim liberals want the US or the Repubs to fail or whatever), have you considered not everyone was interested enough to research the woman? I research a lot of things, but certainly I'm not motivated to look into everything.

You've drawn an unsupported assumption, that because we didn't do a thorough investigation of this woman we must have wanted to believe some Christians are that awful. I don't need to prove that, there are countless examples which have already proved it. At the same time, I certainly believe they represent a minority of Christians. What on Earth would motivate me to want there to be more of these fools?

Skeptic Ginger
16th March 2011, 09:54 AM
...

Much of what's posted on JREF poses as a search for truth and enlightenment, but is really just a way for people to say "look what a nice person I am compared to this guy - and everyone else who thinks like him".Much of what's posted anywhere when people don't like criticism of themselves amounts to rationalizations by the offended person allowing him/herself to dismiss the criticism as something it is not. If the criticism is only bias or looking for fault for some secondary gain, that criticism can be dismissed.

Yes indeed, that is human nature.

Denver
16th March 2011, 10:11 AM
We'll have to wait and see what Pat Robertson has to say about it, I guess.

At least we have Glenn Beck to fall back on:

God -- what God does is God's business, I have no idea. But I'll tell you this: whether you call it Gaia or whether you call it Jesus -- there's a message being sent. And that is, 'Hey, you know that stuff we're doing? Not really working out real well. Maybe we should stop doing some of it.' I'm just sayin'.

Read more: http://swampland.blogs.time.com/2011...#ixzz1GdgVfzi7


Beck changed up today. He said earthquakes and tsunami are part of nature, and God doesn't mess with that stuff.

westprog
16th March 2011, 10:39 AM
[changed mind]

Gawdzilla
16th March 2011, 10:45 AM
Evidently the governor of the Tokyo Prefecture screwed up and spoke what he was thinking. He said the disaster was "divine punishment" for Japanese egoism. Of course, he has since apologized.

bruto
16th March 2011, 10:51 AM
Beck changed up today. He said earthquakes and tsunami are part of nature, and God doesn't mess with that stuff.Good for him (no sarcasm intended).

westprog
16th March 2011, 11:02 AM
Much of what's posted anywhere when people don't like criticism of themselves amounts to rationalizations by the offended person allowing him/herself to dismiss the criticism as something it is not. If the criticism is only bias or looking for fault for some secondary gain, that criticism can be dismissed.

Yes indeed, that is human nature.

When people go looking for confirmation of their prejudices then they will usually find what they're looking for. That's clearly what's happened on JREF. There have even been threads asking for the good stuff to be shared around. This is not what people do when they are looking to be informed. It's what people do when they have prejudices they want reinforced.

Gawdzilla
16th March 2011, 11:25 AM
When people go looking for confirmation of their prejudices then they will usually find what they're looking for. That's clearly what's happened on JREF. There have even been threads asking for the good stuff to be shared around. This is not what people do when they are looking to be informed. It's what people do when they have prejudices they want reinforced.

Ah, yes, of course. Everybody on JREF thinks exactly alike, don't they? And we can certainly judge the attitude of the entire membership by the actions of selected individuals, can't we.

Marquis de Carabas
16th March 2011, 11:28 AM
Ah, yes, of course. Everybody on JREF thinks exactly alike, don't they? And we can certainly judge the attitude of the entire membership by the actions of selected individuals, can't we.
This is a textbook JREF reply.

Mister Agenda
16th March 2011, 11:37 AM
God is the god of the universe. He has every right to take life away whenever He sees fit. It is not ours to question. This tsunami shows that the Christian view of God is the proper view of God and the one true religion. Islam required people to actually go out and perform mass killing on 8-11-2001. And we are supposed to assume that means Islam is valid? The very fact that the Christian god performed His glorious wrath on Japan is living and proof that Christianity is true. Now that you understand this, it is time for you to accept Jesus Christ into your life. All you need to to is to pray and open your heart unto him and accept him as his one true savior. Say this prayer. Dear God in heaven, I come to you in the name of Jesus. I acknowledge to You that I am a sinner, and I am sorry for my sins and the life that I have lived; I need your forgiveness. I believe that your only begotten Son Jesus Christ shed His precious blood on the cross at Calvary and died for my sins, and I am now willing to turn from my sin. You said in Your Holy Word, Romans 10:9 that if we confess the Lord our God and believe in our hearts that God raised Jesus from the dead, we shall be saved. Right now I confess Jesus as the Lord of my soul. With my heart, I believe that God raised Jesus from the dead. This very moment I accept Jesus Christ as my own personal Savior and according to His Word, right now I am saved. Thank you Jesus for your unlimited grace which has saved me from my sins. I thank you Jesus that your grace never leads to license, but rather it always leads to repentance. Therefore Lord Jesus transform my life so that I may bring glory and honor to you alone and not to myself. Thank you Jesus for dying for me and giving me eternal life. Amen. Should I say more? Maybe I should stop now and tell you that this post I have made here is a test to see if you passionate wackos will reply to this particular post before reading it completely and find the part where I tell you I just made this post to test you and that I am not serious at all in this post. So lets see now how many irrational wackos repond to this post without "getting it".

It was unkind of you to put up a wall of text to go through before getting to the punch line. If anyone doesn't 'get it', it'll be because they assume you're sincere up front and too uninterested in reading more tripe to get to the 'gotcha' part. You'll trap impatient people, not irrational wackos.

Gawdzilla
16th March 2011, 11:43 AM
This is a textbook JREF reply.

Oh, so I'm wrong? You CAN'T make blanket statement about everybody here based on a few people? I refuse to believe that. We're absolutely vanilla and totally consistent.

Skeptic Ginger
16th March 2011, 04:09 PM
When people go looking for confirmation of their prejudices then they will usually find what they're looking for.Like you and Joey, you mean, looking for confirmation about the biased JREF members?


That's clearly what's happened on JREF. There have even been threads asking for the good stuff to be shared around. This is not what people do when they are looking to be informed. It's what people do when they have prejudices they want reinforced.Everyone is susceptible to confirmation bias, even you and Joey. So given the situation in this thread, let's look a little closer.

You've taken a single anecdote, drawn conclusions well beyond what is evidenced here in the thread, and made the claim, this is what you believe you typically see on the thread.

On the other side, we saw an outrageous video and drew a conclusion about the video that was later found to be satire.

Whatever evidence you believe you've experienced reading JREF posts, we don't know. We have seen no examples. We have only seen your generalized claims.

We've cited specific 'Christians' who've expressed the things the woman in the video expressed, the Westboro idiots, Jerry Falwell, and Pat Robertson. I, for one, have said I don't need to look for examples, we have them. I certainly don't want to find more examples.


So which does the evidence support, you and Joey are drawing false conclusions about many people on the JREF because of confirmation bias or we are because we were fooled by satire?

westprog
16th March 2011, 04:30 PM
Ah, yes, of course. Everybody on JREF thinks exactly alike, don't they? And we can certainly judge the attitude of the entire membership by the actions of selected individuals, can't we.

That would have been a foolish thing to say, if I'd said it, but I didn't. I no more judge the entire body of JREF posters by the people who search out the lunatic fundamentalists than I judge the entirety of religious beliefs (or unbelief) by the extremes.

It is however the case that the behaviour I described is far more likely to be found on JREF than in Real Life (TM).

Joey McGee
16th March 2011, 04:43 PM
(emphasis mine) On what evidence do you base this claim?

On what evidence do we base the claim that people who believe in the afterlife and divine providence are wishful thinkers? We simply note the fact that they missed evidence that shows they are being fooled by their holy books.


Rather than "wishful thinking" which I find to be a commonly spouted fallacious argument (like the idiotic claim liberals want the US or the Repubs to fail or whatever), have you considered not everyone was interested enough to research the woman? I research a lot of things, but certainly I'm not motivated to look into everything.

It seems to me like you've taken personal offence to my thesis when I'm simply pointing out human nature. People enjoy bashing people when they can get away with it. Given the opportunity, however small, certain groups will get sucked into it. I'm no different, I was trolled by a similar Poe a long time ago. I recognized afterwards that my moral outrage had more to do with mental masturbation than actually trying to lead people away from delusion and make the world a better place. It's a dead end, and I recognized that I needed to up my game.

You've drawn an unsupported assumption, that because we didn't do a thorough investigation of this woman we must have wanted to believe some Christians are that awful.

See, this isn't what I'm saying at all. I'm saying that there is a tendency of people to abuse these events for their own, selfish purposes, and it's just human nature. The fact people didn't investigate deeply before spreading the virus just shows they are naive when it comes to the nature of trolls on the internet.

I don't need to prove that, there are countless examples which have already proved it. At the same time, I certainly believe they represent a minority of Christians. What on Earth would motivate me to want there to be more of these fools?

Nothing, probably. But people get pleasure out of the fact that there are people who are this foolish, and enjoy bashing them. I had a long conversation with someone who bashes fundamentalists a lot on YouTube. He truly believes that there is no point in doing anything other than making fun of and attacking these people because they will never change. He said he does it for his own personal pleasure. He had a hard time believing me that countless people abandon religion every day just from reading the books of "The Four Horseman" he refused to accept the evidence, he wanted to believe his anger and mockery was justified so he could enjoy it.

I'm not slandering you or other people here by saying you're just like him, so I don't see your point of policing my statements. I'm simply pointing out a phenomenon. I want people to grow up and treat this problem constructively because I think we can get rid of this stuff for the most part over a generation if we do.

Gawdzilla
16th March 2011, 04:47 PM
That would have been a foolish thing to say, if I'd said it, but I didn't. I no more judge the entire body of JREF posters by the people who search out the lunatic fundamentalists than I judge the entirety of religious beliefs (or unbelief) by the extremes.

It is however the case that the behaviour I described is far more likely to be found on JREF than in Real Life (TM).

It was a foolish thing to say, wasn't it?

Joey McGee
16th March 2011, 04:59 PM
I don't think she's great or anything, I wish she never did it. I'm just pointing out what the event has shown us about ourselves. If you look around a little bit, I'm not alone. People are asking, "wow what does this say about us?"

It's kind of like I don't support certain wikileaks actions, but that's not going to stop me from reading the cables and reports.

slingblade
16th March 2011, 05:05 PM
Hey, I was just impressed you managed to get to the end of his wall-o-text. Bill's attempt to show that people don't fully read things that are in a basically unreadable format ran up against your proofreading skills. :)

And he might have gotten away with it too, if it wasn't for those pesky quote marks at the end that stood out like kids on my damned lawn!! :D

Skeptic Ginger
16th March 2011, 05:41 PM
On what evidence do we base the claim that people who believe in the afterlife and divine providence are wishful thinkers? We simply note the fact that they missed evidence that shows they are being fooled by their holy books. False analogy. You have made a claim that a bias caused people draw a conclusion. And not just a bias, but a desire to see Christians as bad people. That has nothing to do with the analogy you've used here.

It seems to me like you've taken personal offence to my thesis when I'm simply pointing out human nature. Told you, I don't care what you think of me, nor do I care that I was wrong about satire. I'm pointing out the fallacy in your thinking that anyone "wants" evidence confirming a bias about Christians.

The same human nature you claim to be seeing, you are neglecting to notice applies to you. How do you know it is not YOUR confirmation bias leading you to draw false conclusions about other people's potential bias?


People enjoy bashing people when they can get away with it. People also dismiss valid criticism by rationalizing the criticism is no more than bias.


Given the opportunity, however small, certain groups will get sucked into it. I'm no different, I was trolled by a similar Poe a long time ago. I recognized afterwards that my moral outrage had more to do with mental masturbation than actually trying to lead people away from delusion and make the world a better place. It's a dead end, and I recognized that I needed to up my game.

See, this isn't what I'm saying at all. I'm saying that there is a tendency of people to abuse these events for their own, selfish purposes, and it's just human nature. The fact people didn't investigate deeply before spreading the virus just shows they are naive when it comes to the nature of trolls on the internet.Now we are getting somewhere. You are projecting your own feelings on to others.



Nothing, probably. But people get pleasure out of the fact that there are people who are this foolish, and enjoy bashing them. I had a long conversation with someone who bashes fundamentalists a lot on YouTube. He truly believes that there is no point in doing anything other than making fun of and attacking these people because they will never change. He said he does it for his own personal pleasure. He had a hard time believing me that countless people abandon religion every day just from reading the books of "The Four Horseman" he refused to accept the evidence, he wanted to believe his anger and mockery was justified so he could enjoy it.Whether people do this or not, you've not provided evidence it is related to your assumptions in this thread.


I'm not slandering you or other people here by saying you're just like him, so I don't see your point of policing my statements. I'm simply pointing out a phenomenon. I want people to grow up and treat this problem constructively because I think we can get rid of this stuff for the most part over a generation if we do.Both of you are making the same unsupported assumption about the reason this particular satire was convincing. You may be making the unsupported assumption for different reasons. You appear to be projecting your own feelings and Westprog may be dismissing evidence about Christians we post that he doesn't want to deal with. Regardless of the reason, you are both making the same unsupported assumption.



Let me state another reason for buying the satire in this case. See how it sounds.

Because other Christians have expressed the 'God's wrath' and 'atheists are evil' themes before, it was reasonable to believe this woman was sincere. Because the Christian religion (not all Christians believe in hell) has a basic premise that non-believers suffer eternally in hell, it was reasonable to believe this woman's video was real.

Do you take issue with the basis I've cited, (other Christians have... & Hell is a key Christian concept)?

On what basis do you conclude that believing the satire was due to a confirmation bias rather than previously encountered evidence?

Joey McGee
16th March 2011, 06:20 PM
False analogy. You have made a claim that a bias caused people draw a conclusion. And not just a bias, but a desire to see Christians as bad people. That has nothing to do with the analogy you've used here.

Not a "desire to see Christians as bad people", an evolved function to take pleasure in the failures and stupidity of others, something I hope we can overcome as a species, something that rears it's ugly head in every human interaction possible. Kind of like how racism is innate but we can overcome it (it's actually prejudice against any other visually different group that's innate)

Told you, I don't care what you think of me, nor do I care that I was wrong about satire. I'm pointing out the fallacy in your thinking that anyone "wants" evidence confirming a bias about Christians.

And I'm pointing out that that's not what I'm saying :)

The same human nature you claim to be seeing, you are neglecting to notice applies to you. How do you know it is not YOUR confirmation bias leading you to draw false conclusions about other people's potential bias?


I'm sure it does, any time you generalize you're getting it wrong, but pointing out the exceptions doesn't debunk the generalization if it's generally true.

Now we are getting somewhere. You are projecting your own feelings on to others.

I knew you'd say that! I'm making a case that it's the better thing to do and say, I'm trying to encourage other people to up their game. Specifically the rabid, half-insane adolescents that took the most pleasure in trashing her.

Both of you are making the same unsupported assumption about the reason this particular satire was convincing. You may be making the unsupported assumption for different reasons. You appear to be projecting your own feelings and Westprog may be dismissing evidence about Christians we post that he doesn't want to deal with. Regardless of the reason, you are both making the same unsupported assumption.


I am right that many people people are destructive rather than constructive when it comes to dealing with cults and religion. I am right that if more people were constructive in dealing with them, the world would be a better place. I make the claim that people got trolled so hard because they weren't in it to actually make a difference, they were in it to feel good about themselves. If you are disputing that this happened to SOMEONE, you're almost certainly wrong, I'm sorry I don't possess brain scanning tools. If you are disputing that it happened with YOU, fine, I accept that! I'm sure it wasn't like that for many! Doesn't debunk my point about many people eagerly lapping this stuff up because they enjoy it so much.

Let me state another reason for buying the satire in this case. See how it sounds.

Because other Christians have expressed the 'God's wrath' and 'atheists are evil' themes before, it was reasonable to believe this woman was sincere. Because the Christian religion (not all Christians believe in hell) has a basic premise that non-believers suffer eternally in hell, it was reasonable to believe this woman's video was real.

Do you take issue with the basis I've cited, (other Christians have... & Hell is a key Christian concept)?


Haven't I already stated that it's reasonable to be fooled if you don't know what a Poe is and that they exist? I have, haven't I? You're barking up the wrong tree.

On what basis do you conclude that believing the satire was due to a confirmation bias rather than previously encountered evidence?

Keep in mind I'm only accusing this of the people who know Poe's exist. It took me 30 seconds to confirm she was a troll. I assume that if you're spreading this around as real, you want to be sure of it, seeing as it's an over the top video that will surely enrage and sicken a few hundred million people. It's a huge lapse of reasoning for a skeptical person. I blame emotion and poorly evolved modules of human psychology. Feel free to disagree.

ETA: Has anyone found another video that's equally as over the top? Equally as enraging? If these videos were a dime a dozen I would understand but they aren't, that's why she got all of the attention! Duh, winning :p

Skeptic Ginger
16th March 2011, 09:40 PM
Not a "desire to see Christians as bad people", an evolved function to take pleasure in the failures and stupidity of others, something I hope we can overcome as a species, something that rears it's ugly head in every human interaction possible. Kind of like how racism is innate but we can overcome it (it's actually prejudice against any other visually different group that's innate)Someone acts like one of the Westboro clan and you hope we can overcome our racism for believing it was real?


And I'm pointing out that [the fallacy in your thinking that anyone "wants" evidence confirming a bias about Christians is] not what I'm saying :)Yet you saidWhat's so outlandish about postulating that people want these things to be real to the point of being subconsciously blinded so they can get a powerful cathartic experience out of it? This is what we charge the religionists with, this is accepted as human nature.


I knew you'd say that! I'm making a case that it's the better thing to do and say, I'm trying to encourage other people to up their game. Specifically the rabid, half-insane adolescents that took the most pleasure in trashing her.So which is it, people posting on JREF or half-insane adolescents that you are addressing here?


I am right that many people people are destructive rather than constructive when it comes to dealing with cults and religion. I am right that if more people were constructive in dealing with them, the world would be a better place. I make the claim that people got trolled so hard because they weren't in it to actually make a difference, they were in it to feel good about themselves. If you are disputing that this happened to SOMEONE, you're almost certainly wrong, I'm sorry I don't possess brain scanning tools. If you are disputing that it happened with YOU, fine, I accept that! I'm sure it wasn't like that for many! Doesn't debunk my point about many people eagerly lapping this stuff up because they enjoy it so much.What does any of this have to do with the assumptions you posted about JREFers?


Haven't I already stated that it's reasonable to be fooled if you don't know what a Poe is and that they exist? I have, haven't I? You're barking up the wrong tree.You're talking past what I said.


Keep in mind I'm only accusing this of the people who know Poe's exist. It took me 30 seconds to confirm she was a troll. ....And some of us didn't have any desire to look into the idiot beyond her YouTube page. That's all, nothing more, no evidence of anything else here than that.

Joey McGee
16th March 2011, 10:02 PM
Someone acts like one of the Westboro clan and you hope we can overcome our racism for believing it was real?

:confused: This sentence does not make sense to me and I was using racism as an analogy. I'm talking about brain modules shaped by evolution (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MmSbEsNONTo) that are causing us to be stupid and nasty.

Yet you said


It's simply about being better, superior, all of that tribal rage stuff. It doesn't have to be about religion it could be about sports. In this case, it happens to be religion

So which is it, people posting on JREF or half-insane adolescents that you are addressing here?


This is unfair, I've repeatedly stated that I'm trying to raise an issue common to all humanity that afflicts some more than others. I don't even understand what purpose you have here.

What does any of this have to do with the assumptions you posted about JREFers?

I didn't say anything about JREFers, you invented that when you took offence on behalf of them.

You're talking past what I said.

You'll have to explain.

And some of us didn't have any desire to look into the idiot beyond her YouTube page. That's all, nothing more, no evidence of anything else here than that.

I'm talking about the people who posted it everywhere inviting people to pile on and bash her. Those people should have looked a little deeper before they fed the troll.

Skeptic Ginger
17th March 2011, 12:22 AM
......
I'm talking about the people who posted it everywhere inviting people to pile on and bash her. Those people should have looked a little deeper before they fed the troll.You included the people in this forum in the group of people you are making assumptions about. Now you are saying it was all about other people, teenagers, whoever.

You have decided you know the motivation/reason for people being fooled by the satire. I don't agree that is the reason.

Why is that so complicated?

You have attributed your personal experience as the reason everyone else made a judgement. I cited the evidence some people based their judgement on. It did not corroborate your assumption. You assumed because you looked around the net for evidence on this idiot, we all must have done the same and still decided her skit was real.

This is not rocket science. Your conclusion about why people did a certain thing ignores other possibilities.

Joey McGee
17th March 2011, 08:41 AM
You included the people in this forum in the group of people you are making assumptions about. Now you are saying it was all about other people, teenagers, whoever.


That's just your interpretation, I'm glad you're looking out for slander though. It would include some people who post here but it wouldn't have anything to do with the fact that they do, simply that they are human and fall into this trap.

You have attributed your personal experience as the reason everyone else made a judgement. I cited the evidence some people based their judgement on. It did not corroborate your assumption. You assumed because you looked around the net for evidence on this idiot, we all must have done the same and still decided her skit was real.

This is not rocket science. Your conclusion about why people did a certain thing ignores other possibilities.

I put forth a thesis saying some people. In the future, I'll be careful to add endless caveats excepting anyone who might possibly be unfairly maligned. I'm still right, as if you don't think that confirmation bias, tribally-triggered dopamine rushes and hysterical moral outrage don't exist! As if you could be skeptical of that happening to some people. Again, it just sounds like you're nitpicking for personal reasons. I'll be sure to have my ideas peer-reviewed and published before I state them too! I've tried to figure out where I've gone wrong here but it seems we're going nowhere.

westprog
17th March 2011, 11:30 AM
It was a foolish thing to say, wasn't it?

What was? If you don't quote it, it makes it difficult to follow. I haven't been deleting posts wholesale.

Joey McGee
17th March 2011, 11:32 AM
I'll give a much easier example of this exact phenomenon.

Dawkins recently appeared in a 1hr interview on RevelationTV (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wfe4IUB9NTk). The company took a few days to upload their high-quality, edited version and has DMCA'd every unauthorized upload. The reason for this is obvious,(to me) they wanted their HQ version to get the most hits. Most media companies do this.

Before they turned off the comments (over the top gloating and egoism, incitement to hatred etc.) the highest rated comment with 50 thumbs up was saying that the reason they keep DMCAing all of the uploads is that they were embarassed! (I don't think the commenter realized this was finally an authorized version) Trying to hide the interview from the world! And also attacked them for wasting donation money on a nice studio and graphics! Many other commenters and bloggers had taken this stance. That's hysterical and pathetic. These people are looking for any reason at all to attack anyone at all!

To me, this is sad but unsurprising. It's just human nature. The comments there were just sad, the owners were trying to moderate the conversation but it was out of control.

The worst part about it was that the interviewer was by far the most open and respectful Dawins has ever encountered!

ETA: The Journal of Evolutionary Psychology published a new study yesterday, "To Defer or Stand Up? How Offender Formidability Affects Moral Outrage (http://www.epjournal.net/filestore/EP09118136.pdf)" Hmmmm so they're saying that when there is little to lose and much to gain, moral outrage increases? Where have I heard that before?

westprog
17th March 2011, 11:51 AM
I didn't say anything about JREFers, you invented that when you took offence on behalf of them.


I referred to JREF as being a likely forum where people use their beliefs about religion to imply that they are superior in some way - either intellectually for being smart enough to see through that stuff, or because they are saved because they've been washed in the blood of the lamb and won't burn eternally.

It's no different from other forums in the tendency of people to want to look better. Some people do it by the sports team they support, or the clothes they wear.

I don't exempt myself from this. However, I don't try to make myself look better by concealing obvious errors and bad behaviour from people who happen to belong to the same group as me.

Gawdzilla
17th March 2011, 11:55 AM
I referred to JREF as being a likely forum where people use their beliefs about religion to imply that they are superior in some way - either intellectually for being smart enough to see through that stuff, or because they are saved because they've been washed in the blood of the lamb and won't burn eternally.

It's no different from other forums in the tendency of people to want to look better. Some people do it by the sports team they support, or the clothes they wear.

I don't exempt myself from this. However, I don't try to make myself look better by concealing obvious errors and bad behaviour from people who happen to belong to the same group as me.
Still struggling to control those sweeping generalizations, I see.

Skeptic Ginger
17th March 2011, 12:03 PM
Still struggling to control those sweeping generalizations, I see.

I'll accept the walked back comments as progress. ;)

Gawdzilla
17th March 2011, 12:20 PM
I'll accept the walked back comments as progress. ;)

Meh, I fire three times and then yell "Halt". :D

AdMan
17th March 2011, 02:08 PM
The world continues to grieve with Japan in the wake of the March 11 8.9 magnitude earthquake and subsequent tsunami. As the fifth largest earthquake to ever take place, the threat of aftershocks continues. Amid the devastation, “The worst tragedy is that statistically only one or two out of every 1,000 people here would confess Christ as Lord,” says Tony Haug, a Pioneer in Japan for 23 years.

[Emphasis mine]

http://pioneers.org/Connect/Media/MediaArchive/tabid/149/PostID/274/Tragedy-in-Japan.aspx

I don't think I can find words to describe how angry such stupidity makes me.

Skeptical Greg
17th March 2011, 02:09 PM
About 11% of the dead will be "Christian". I wonder why they got snuffed with the rest? .....That happens a lot..God sorts things out in the end..

Gawdzilla
17th March 2011, 02:16 PM
That happens a lot..God sorts things out in the end..

I hear that happens a lot in that part of the world.

westprog
17th March 2011, 03:41 PM
Still struggling to control those sweeping generalizations, I see.

Wouldn't you agree that we can get a feel for how people feel about this kind of thing?

Gawdzilla
17th March 2011, 03:59 PM
Wouldn't you agree that we can get a feel for how people feel about this kind of thing?

What would be the point of that?

Seismosaurus
17th March 2011, 04:21 PM
I find it bizzare that there are religious people saying "See, it was a Poe all along and the silly atheists fell for it, that shows their bias!"

The entire POINT of Poes is that no matter how far out there you go with a parody, no matter how absurdly over the top it gets, you will at BEST equal the kinds of things that real honest christians believe. Yes, people fell for this girl's shtick, but that is because this girl's shtick is no more over the top than Jerry Falwell blaming 9/11 on abortion, or Fred Phelps saying IEDs are god's punishment for gays. Hell this very forum has a thread by a christian who is saying the exact same thing the girl did for real - that Japan was struck by god because they aren't christian enough.

Falling for this con doesn't prove that atheists are gullible, it proves that there's nothing so ******* crazy that it couldn't be part of christianity.

Skeptic Ginger
17th March 2011, 06:28 PM
I find it bizzare that there are religious people saying "See, it was a Poe all along and the silly atheists fell for it, that shows their bias!"

The entire POINT of Poes is that no matter how far out there you go with a parody, no matter how absurdly over the top it gets, you will at BEST equal the kinds of things that real honest christians believe. Yes, people fell for this girl's shtick, but that is because this girl's shtick is no more over the top than Jerry Falwell blaming 9/11 on abortion, or Fred Phelps saying IEDs are god's punishment for gays. Hell this very forum has a thread by a christian who is saying the exact same thing the girl did for real - that Japan was struck by god because they aren't christian enough.

Falling for this con doesn't prove that atheists are gullible, it proves that there's nothing so ******* crazy that it couldn't be part of christianity.Well said.

bruto
17th March 2011, 06:49 PM
I find it bizzare that there are religious people saying "See, it was a Poe all along and the silly atheists fell for it, that shows their bias!"

The entire POINT of Poes is that no matter how far out there you go with a parody, no matter how absurdly over the top it gets, you will at BEST equal the kinds of things that real honest christians believe. Yes, people fell for this girl's shtick, but that is because this girl's shtick is no more over the top than Jerry Falwell blaming 9/11 on abortion, or Fred Phelps saying IEDs are god's punishment for gays. Hell this very forum has a thread by a christian who is saying the exact same thing the girl did for real - that Japan was struck by god because they aren't christian enough.

Falling for this con doesn't prove that atheists are gullible, it proves that there's nothing so ******* crazy that it couldn't be part of christianity.

I've been trying to figure out how to say this for the past week. Couldn't quite hit it. You did.

By the way, I emerged from the woods long enough to walk down the colorful Church Street in Burlington, VT. today, and there, sure enough, was a person handing out leaflets and wearing a sign board that said that Tsunamis and Earthquakes are God's vengeance. Naah. Probably just pulling our chain, right?

westprog
18th March 2011, 10:11 AM
What would be the point of that?

I don't know, you said it.

Gawdzilla
18th March 2011, 11:10 AM
I don't know, you said it.

Full props for lightning like reflexes.

tsig
20th March 2011, 12:17 PM
The wish to be better than other people is very powerful. One way is to be just better than everyone else - but that's difficult to believe. However, belonging to a group that is "objectively" better than people who don't belong to that group - that's easier to believe.

Much of what's posted on JREF poses as a search for truth and enlightenment, but is really just a way for people to say "look what a nice person I am compared to this guy - and everyone else who thinks like him".

Where is this "JREF " of which you speak?

Gawdzilla
20th March 2011, 12:19 PM
Where is this "JREF " of which you speak?

Remote valley in Tibet, I think.

rwguinn
20th March 2011, 12:24 PM
[Emphasis mine]

http://pioneers.org/Connect/Media/MediaArchive/tabid/149/PostID/274/Tragedy-in-Japan.aspx

I don't think I can find words to describe how angry such stupidity makes me.
Why?
From his POV, the fact that so many died without acknowledging his personal god means, that in his eyes, they are doomed to hell, when they could have gone to heaven instead.
That is the "worst tragedy" to which he is referring.

Halfcentaur
20th March 2011, 01:19 PM
I find it bizzare that there are religious people saying "See, it was a Poe all along and the silly atheists fell for it, that shows their bias!"

The entire POINT of Poes is that no matter how far out there you go with a parody, no matter how absurdly over the top it gets, you will at BEST equal the kinds of things that real honest christians believe. Yes, people fell for this girl's shtick, but that is because this girl's shtick is no more over the top than Jerry Falwell blaming 9/11 on abortion, or Fred Phelps saying IEDs are god's punishment for gays. Hell this very forum has a thread by a christian who is saying the exact same thing the girl did for real - that Japan was struck by god because they aren't christian enough.

Falling for this con doesn't prove that atheists are gullible, it proves that there's nothing so ******* crazy that it couldn't be part of christianity.


Indeed, well said. It's simple to "troll" anything and make it indistinguishable from someone in reality unless you're just not that good at acting.

Anyone acting as if people that fall for this sort of thing are naive is just trying too hard to pat themselves on the back, or is too concerned about being naive and would prefer to run around on high alert at all times.

If someone is pulling off their "troll" attempt in a way that betrays them as being false and people fall for it anyways, then the degree of skill is worth talking about. But acting as if people are naive for treating average behavior as average behavior is trying too hard.

Skeptic Ginger
20th March 2011, 01:21 PM
Why?
From his POV, the fact that so many died without acknowledging his personal god means, that in his eyes, they are doomed to hell, when they could have gone to heaven instead.
That is the "worst tragedy" to which he is referring.Well, "his point of view", is quite condescending, for one.
We have three teams of missionaries currently working to meet the spiritual needs of this great unreached nation. It's disgustingly presumptuous to think Christianity is the only solution to "spiritual needs" given Japan is an extremely religious society. I'm pretty sure their spiritual needs are not what they need 'filled' at this time.

So it is pretty crappy to think donations would be going to convert people to Christianity rather than going to provide the food shelter and reconstruction they actually need funds for.

Puppycow
20th March 2011, 06:02 PM
Here's a real Christian saying more or less the same thing as the troll. Just replace "atheists" with "idolators."

Jacobs: God Is Using Earthquake To Break Japan's Pagan Idolatry (http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/jacobs-god-using-earthquake-break-japans-pagan-idolatry)

In the early nineties, the Lord gave me a prophecy for Japan that it was a "sickle in the hand of the Lord" that will be used for great harvest. The physical geography of the islands look like a curved sickle with the handle being the island of Hokkaido in the north. One could also say that it looks like a curved sword. Where Japan has historically been a sword of war across Asia. I see God raising up young revivalists from the nation who will impact Asia and the world for the gospel.

On the other hand, if you look at it another way, this island, Hokkaido, looks like the head of a dragon with the body being the rest of Japan. The people of Asia have worshipped the dragon for 5,000 years. If one looks at the place where the earthquake took place, it looks like the soft underbelly of most vulnerable part of the dragon. Let's pray that the deep idolatry and the worship of hundreds of idols under the guise of Shintoism, Buddhism, and allegiances to being "sons of the dragon" will be broken and thousands will turn to the Lord.

My interpretation of this is that while God did not want people to perish, He is going to use this to "pierce" the darkness surrounding the Japanese people if we will cry out to God for them in the midst of this crisis ... If we respond correctly, the darkness and the grip of idolatry of all forms that has blinded the eyes of so many in Japan will be broken off of them. The faithful believers in Jesus Christ will be strengthened as they are used for great harvest across Asia and the face of the earth.

Skeptic Ginger
20th March 2011, 11:27 PM
Here's a real Christian saying more or less the same thing as the troll. Just replace "atheists" with "idolators."

Jacobs: God Is Using Earthquake To Break Japan's Pagan Idolatry (http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/jacobs-god-using-earthquake-break-japans-pagan-idolatry)Yeah because natural disasters never befall Christian communities. :rolleyes:

Oh yeah, and loving gods crap on people that don't worship them. :rolleyes:

Can you imagine if you treated your kids like crap because they were ungrateful? I am responsible for my son. He's not responsible to worship me because I brought him into the world. Not only do these self righteous Christians disgust me, but their concept of their mythical god does too.