Franko's theory on TLOP

[Atarin]

Hi to everyone, and relax, you're not going to get anywhere by constantly abusing one another... I know it's easy to fall into the trap, but try be mature about everything - if you can't agree, then accept everyone has a path/choice (whether it be a planned one on a higher level or not) and they are living that path/choice.

Anyway, now to the subject titled... I have read this statement many times now,

Atoms obey the laws of physics - You are made of atoms. - YOU OBEY THE LAWS OF PHSYICS.

Atoms - a physical entity of which everything is comprised, obey the laws of physics

ok, accepted.

As I am also a physical entity, I must obey the laws of physics when reacting/acting within the physical realm...

Is this all you mean?

If so then I can agree, but I have seen you say somewhere that we have no freewill, therefore I am led to think that you believe that even our thoughts are controlled by a so called "Goddess" (TLOP), is this correct?

The way our thoughts are transferred and become physical obeys the laws of physics, but the information they hold does not? I can think, fantasize and dream about flying unaided by technology, simple yes, but how does that obey the laws of physics exactly?

Also,
TLOP (God) controls YOU controls CAR
So to my understanding, you are saying "A set of laws which are in my belief "God" - control the way I react within the world, whether that be while operating a car or jumping from the highest cliff"

Is my understanding correct?
And is your "Goddess" anything more than a set of laws?

Basically: We only obey the laws of physics when working within the physical realm.

That is how I see this thus far and another question, isn't the word "physics" derived from the word physical or vice versa?

I am curious to how you would reply to these questions Franko, oh and just a note, I have no wish to fight with you, we have spoken many a time before on another message board, but you seem to have changed a great deal since I last spoke to you.

From memory you were like me in the respect that you searched for truth and did not like the idea of believing something simply because it appeared to make sense at the time.

Greatly surpassed by the search for truth is emotional wellbeing, for to lose yourself within a lie is to build your foundation on unstable ground.

Just a philosophy I keep close during times of deep thought and questioning. Also...

Until proven, it shall remain an idea

It seems to me that if we all took on this philosophy, there would be a lot less fighting... but even what I say here is just an idea, I have no proof as there has been no testing.


I look forward to hearing from you all

P.S. My signature is just something I see as a possible truth, but things don't sound as "cool" unless you say them as fact (in my opinion anyhow).

Kindest regards,
Atarin Virtuar

[ScottDYelich]

off topic.. is there a thread that discusses how
to reach people who are convinced they are right simply because they know/think/feel/insist that they are?


anytime you try to talk to them... they insult you to defend their points.... and/or get upset that you even question what they say?

where can someone on this system read about how to address people like this?

Scott

[Akots]

If I had a TV in my apartment, i'd wonder what was on it right now...

[Tricky]

Originally posted by ScottDYelich
off topic.. is there a thread that discusses how
to reach people who are convinced they are right simply because they know/think/feel/insist that they are?


anytime you try to talk to them... they insult you to defend their points.... and/or get upset that you even question what they say?

where can someone on this system read about how to address people like this?

Scott
Right here (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12592), Scott.

[Franko]

Atarin:
Atoms - a physical entity of which everything is comprised, obey the laws of physics

ok, accepted.

As I am also a physical entity, I must obey the laws of physics when reacting/acting within the physical realm...

Is this all you mean?

If so then I can agree, but I have seen you say somewhere that we have no freewill, therefore I am led to think that you believe that even our thoughts are controlled by a so called "Goddess" (TLOP), is this correct?

TLOP (Goddess) controls YOU controls CAR

The reason YOU control your CAR is because you are more conscious (more self-aware) than CAR; similarly, TLOP controls YOU because TLOP is more conscious (more self-aware) than YOU.

Atarin:
So to my understanding, you are saying "A set of laws which are in my belief "God" - control the way I react within the world, whether that be while operating a car or jumping from the highest cliff"

The “set of laws” controls you whether you believe in Her or Not.

Atarin:
Is my understanding correct?
And is your "Goddess" anything more than a set of laws?

If you were “not conscious” but you could still control a car, than the car cannot be conscious either. In other words, the thing you control MUST be less conscious then you are (and really that is the definition of relative consciousness). Therefore, if you want to claim that a non-conscious force is controlling you (if you want to pretend that TLOP is non-conscious), you might as well claim that you are also “Non-conscious”. In fact, if you believe that TLOP is less conscious than you what you are really saying is that consciousness is an illusion.

Perhaps mine is an illusion … but yours seems real enough …

Atarin:
The way our thoughts are transferred and become physical obeys the laws of physics, but the information they hold does not? I can think, fantasize and dream about flying unaided by technology, simple yes, but how does that obey the laws of physics exactly?

All of your thoughts are simply extrapolations of your physical experiences here in this world. All of those experiences are also a direct result of TLOP ergo ALL of your memories are also a direct result of TLOP (The Laws of Physics). Or put another way, imagine that you had no memories of any experiences from this world … what would you fantasize or dream about then?

Atarin:
Basically: We only obey the laws of physics when working within the physical realm.

But when aren’t you in the “physical realm”?

That is how I see this thus far and another question, isn't the word "physics" derived from the word physical or vice versa?

I am curious to how you would reply to these questions Franko, oh and just a note, I have no wish to fight with you, we have spoken many a time before on another message board, but you seem to have changed a great deal since I last spoke to you.

From memory you were like me in the respect that you searched for truth and did not like the idea of believing something simply because it appeared to make sense at the time.

You’ll have to refresh my memory. I have a strange sense of Time.

But I always give people the benefit of the doubt. For the most part I just reflect back what they transmit to me.

As for seeking the Truth … that is what Logical Deism is all about. It is a philosophy for those not afraid to seek the Truth at ANY and ALL costs. For in the depths of his Soul, a Logical Deist (LD) knows that there is no Truth which is Ultimately Harmful.

[ScottDYelich]

Originally posted by Tricky

Right here (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12592), Scott.

Um... ya... but you're making fun of him.. and even if he gets it, he won't get it.

I'm talking about actually allowing them to get a Clue(tm) when they think, nay, they know... they are (the only ones) in possion of a Clue(tm)?

Scott

[Akots]

Wait... i do have a TV... just no cable or anything. I msotly just use it as a monitor, so I usualy think of it that way.

Still nothing good on, i bet.

[Ossai]

Franko
You seem to be applying that you would, because when a convicted criminal tells you something about their motivations and the workings of their mind, they never ever lie! I did not say that. You are setting up another straw man. How about going back and honestly addressing the points raised.

Awaiting answers for the following.

If I can make a decision, freewill, then I am not controlled by TLOP. If I am controlled by TLOP, then I cannot make a decision because TLOP is controlling me.

Example: It’s my fate to run a particular red light with my remote controlled car and run down a girl scout, killing her instantly. Since it’s my fate, how can I stop from running the red light?

From you earlier posts, fate/god – TLOP, controls everything. Again the remote controlled car is impounded while I walk away free and clear.


How can I behave more responsibly, if I’m being controlled by TLOP and the great TLOP conscious doesn’t want me to behave more responsibly? How can I go against the will of god? If I can, then by your definition, I’m supernatural, which would negate TLOP.


Atoms obey TLOP.
You are made of Atoms.
YOU OBEY TLOP.
Essentially states that all existence is physical. So without some sort of meta-physical existence, death is the end.

TLOP controls Atoms, and Atoms (“Matter”) are everything according to You – aren’t they? I never proposed anything, I’m asking for clarification. Are you proposing some sort of non-physical existence?

Ossai

[Tricky]

Originally posted by ScottDYelich


Um... ya... but you're making fun of him.. and even if he gets it, he won't get it.

I'm talking about actually allowing them to get a Clue™ when they think, nay, they know... they are (the only ones) in possession of a Clue™?

Scott

I've seen plenty of people get clues™ here, including people like Undercover Elephant and even Interesting Ian.

But Franko is a horse of a different color. Those of us who have watched him for a while realize that he doesn't really exist (and has said so repeatedly). This is actually true. The "Franko" persona is just a little game his author plays to see whose knickers he can get into a twist. It can be fun, and even useful to argue with the Franko persona, as it helps you learn how to debate idiots and it lets you examine your own thoughts, but one should always remember that this is just a construct you are arguing with.

Newbies, like Atarin can cut their teeth on Franko before they tackle real people like Christian, so I won't say he doesn't serve a valueable purpose. So have fun, y'all.
This is the point where Franko insults me. Such wit!

[Franko]

Since its been over a year, and you STILL haven’t presented ANY evidence for your religious beliefs, and since you post NOTHING but the same spam over and over again, what do you want me to say? If you have an actual argument for your religious beliefs – some evidence – I’ll be happy to discuss it with you, but your spam doesn’t really require anything other than me restating the obvious. I realize you don’t like your hypocrisy exposed Tricky, perhaps you should run along then? I honestly don’t know why you keep non-responding to all of my posts?

Actually, I do know why … It’s because you are a severely brainwashed religious fanatic with no evidence for his beliefs.

What is your evidence for the existence of “free will”?
Tricky 30+ years dedicated to A-Theism: NONE, but I devoutly and dogmatically believe in “free will” anyway!

What is your evidence for the non-existence of “god”?
Tricky 30+ years dedicated to A-Theism: NONE, but I devoutly and dogmatically believe there is NO “god”, and anyone who believes otherwise is a credulous Theist moron!

--------------------------

What is your evidence for the non-existence of “free will”?
Franko, Logical Deist: Atoms obey TLOP; You are made of Atoms; YOU OBEY TLOP!

What is your evidence for the existence of “god”?
Franko, Logical Deist: TLOP (“god”) makes/controls YOU makes/controls CAR.
In the same way that YOU are more conscious then a CAR, TLOP is more conscious then YOU.

When are you going to explain what the "YOU" is that is making the "decisions"??? I thought that according to Materialism there was no "YOU"? I thought that "YOU" were nothing more then a collection of Atoms?

Why do you believe that the atoms in your brain aren't controlled by the laws of Physics, Trixy? You never seem to want to explain this? What are you hiding A-Theist? Are you embarrassed to tell us what you believe?

[Ossai]

Franko
What is your evidence for the non-existence of “free will”?
Franko, Logical Deist: Atoms obey TLOP; You are made of Atoms; YOU OBEY TLOP!
If correct then humanity is responsible for nothing and we are just mistreated toys.

What is your evidence for the existence of “god”?
Franko, Logical Deist: TLOP (“god”) makes/controls YOU makes/controls CAR.
In the same way that YOU are more conscious then a CAR, TLOP is more conscious then YOU. If correct then humanity is responsible for nothing and we are just mistreated toys. (as well as a False Dilemma)

Ossai

[Acrimonious]

TLOP (Goddess) controls YOU controls CAR

The reason YOU control your CAR is because you are more conscious (more self-aware) than CAR; similarly, TLOP controls YOU because TLOP is more conscious (more self-aware) than YOU.

This is the Non-Sequitor Fallacy of Affirming the Consequent
If I am in Chicago, then I am in Illinois.
I am in Illinois.
Therefore, I am in Chicago.

Or, in this case:

More conscious entities control less conscious entities
My actions are governed by TLOP
Therefore TLOP must be an entity, and it is more conscious than me.

Not only that, it immediately begs the question "Do more conscious entities control less conscious entities?"

Which is easily disproven with a single example of a less (or non) conscious thing exerting any form of control over a more conscious one.

Say a meteorite hits you... Nope, he can still claim TLOP chucked it at you.

How about drowning in a flood? Nope, TLOP controls WATER drowns YOU.

When all of your arguments to prove your conclusion require the conclusion as a premise, what do you have? Yet another instance of Begging the Question.


Or maybe it's the Inductive Fallacy of False Analogy.
YOU are a sentient being.
YOU are more self-aware than a CAR
YOU control a CAR.

YOU are a sentient being
TLOP controls YOU
Therefore, TLOP are more self-aware than YOU


Basically he is taking only one similar aspect of both a human and TLOP (control) and ignoring all of the differences (one being a human, the other a framework of laws that govern energy and mass), then determining from that single similarity that TLOP are a conscious God(ess) because it "controls" you.


It's really pointless to argue with Franko. He is oblivious to the fallacies he uses (and I predict yet another incoming Ad Hominem, don't fail me now!), he is just as stubborn as everyone else in their beliefs. And although it's impossible to prove him wrong, the same holds true for him proving himself right (and again, I point out, you cannot assume you are correct to prove yourself correct, Franko).


And remember: I lack free-willy powers, so I was fated to have this opinion and to write this post. If it's fate that I'm this way, please consider the futility of trying to prove me wrong, when your Godess has intentionally set my graviton on this path to my own destruction.

Acrimonious:

That was beautiful. I'm in awe.

Welcome, welcome, welcome to the forum. :D

[PixyMisa]

UCE got a clue? When did this happen?

Interesting Ian I can believe, but UCE?

[Franko]

Ossai:
If correct then humanity is responsible for nothing and we are just mistreated toys.

Ossai, how many times are you going to scream about the “crystal spheres” before that argument sinks in? Shall I post my same response again? How many times are you going to make this same stupid statement?

If one chicken kills another chicken is that solely the chicken farmer’s fault? Explain how?

[Franko]

This is the Non-Sequitor Fallacy of Affirming the Consequent
If I am in Chicago, then I am in Illinois.
I am in Illinois.
Therefore, I am in Chicago.

Or, in this case:

More conscious entities control less conscious entities
My actions are governed by TLOP
Therefore TLOP must be an entity, and it is more conscious than me.

Not only that, it immediately begs the question "Do more conscious entities control less conscious entities?"

Which is easily disproven with a single example of a less (or non) conscious thing exerting any form of control over a more conscious one.

Say a meteorite hits you... Nope, he can still claim TLOP chucked it at you.

How about drowning in a flood? Nope, TLOP controls WATER drowns YOU.

When all of your arguments to prove your conclusion require the conclusion as a premise, what do you have? Yet another instance of Begging the Question.

So you are claiming that YOU DO NOT OBEY THE LAWS OF PHYSICS and instead that you have magic “free will” powers? What is your evidence for this claim?


Or maybe it's the Inductive Fallacy of False Analogy.
YOU are a sentient being.
YOU are more self-aware than a CAR
YOU control a CAR.

YOU are a sentient being
TLOP controls YOU
Therefore, TLOP are more self-aware than YOU


Basically he is taking only one similar aspect of both a human and TLOP (control) and ignoring all of the differences (one being a human, the other a framework of laws that govern energy and mass), then determining from that single similarity that TLOP are a conscious God(ess) because it "controls" you.

How are YOU any different than TLOP? In terms of Energy you are nothing more than a framework of laws (an algorithm) that governs a (subset) of energy (and mass). What’s the significant difference you are referring about?

It's really pointless to argue with Franko. He is oblivious to the fallacies he uses (and I predict yet another incoming Ad Hominem, don't fail me now!), he is just as stubborn as everyone else in their beliefs. And although it's impossible to prove him wrong, the same holds true for him proving himself right (and again, I point out, you cannot assume you are correct to prove yourself correct, Franko).

Right, right, but you still have given me any reason or evidence for believing in your “free willy” god religious fanatic? Why do you believe that claiming you do not obey the laws of physics is a Proof of “free will”? Claiming you do not obey TLOP is not really Logical. It just makes you look like an insane religious nitwit as stubborn as everyone else in their beliefs.

And remember: I lack free-willy powers, so I was fated to have this opinion and to write this post. If it's fate that I'm this way, please consider the futility of trying to prove me wrong, when your Godess has intentionally set my graviton on this path to my own destruction.

My Goddess didn’t make your Graviton, so if you are destined for annihilation you will have to find someone else to blame. Lord knows an A-Theist can’t take responsibility for his own actions … that would require him to defy Fate.

-----------------------

That was beautiful. I'm in awe.

Welcome, welcome, welcome to the forum.

I thought you said you were leaving this forum permanently, nitwit?

[PixyMisa]

Originally posted by Franko
Ossai, how many times are you going to scream about the “crystal spheres” before that argument sinks in? Shall I post my same response again? How many times are you going to make this same stupid statement?

If one chicken kills another chicken is that solely the chicken farmer’s fault? Explain how? Wow. Sometimes Franko wanders from the merely insane into the genuinely surreal. That's almost poetic.

Originally posted by Franko



I thought you said you were leaving this forum permanently, nitwit?

Don't think so. Sorry to disappoint you.

[Tricky]

Originally posted by PixyMisa
UCE got a clue? When did this happen?

Interesting Ian I can believe, but UCE?
Well, a couple of times he has admitted to being so tied up in his theories that he mistreated people.

[gentlehorse]

Hi, Atarin and Acrimonious.

Off topic:

Just wanted to pop in and welcome y'all to the forum. I look forward to reading your thoughts and tossing in my $0.02 from time to time.

I hope you find this place to be challenging, rewarding, and educational. It can be.

Enjoy. :)

[hammegk]

Originally posted by PixyMisa
Wow. Sometimes Franko wanders from the merely insane into the genuinely surreal. That's almost poetic.

The following question does make perfect sense to you I hope?

If one chicken kills another chicken is that solely the chicken farmer’s fault?

[Atarin]

Franko: The reason YOU control your CAR is because you are more conscious (more self-aware) than CAR; similarly, TLOP controls YOU because TLOP is more conscious (more self-aware) than YOU.


1. The LAWS of physics are more conscious than I am? Explain how TLOP differ from common LAW in principle, are they not just guide lines for us to live by?

2. The car is not a living entity, although it is comprised of many more atoms than I am, wouldn't by your theory make the car more conscious than I am due to having more atoms which are being controlled by TLOP? From what I can see - The more atoms, the more energy there, the more that is needed to be controlled by TLOP, the more consciousness in that area?

3. A bully at school pushes/bosses/controls the smart kid who is more aware of life and everything in the universe than the bully - who is more conscious exactly?

4. How can a set of laws be conscious?

5. What, in essence, are these laws of physics, are they not just the way things work or are they an actual thing? I in essence am many different combinations of atoms.

Franko: In fact, if you believe that TLOP is less conscious than you what you are really saying is that consciousness is an illusion.

1. I am more conscious than the law, although I might not be more conscious than those who created it. Perhaps your goddess is seperate to the laws of physics?

2. Consciousness: A sense of one's personal or collective identity, including the attitudes, beliefs, and sensitivities held by or considered characteristic of an individual or group:
Love of freedom runs deep in the national consciousness. - Not an illusion

Franko: All of your thoughts are simply extrapolations of your physical experiences here in this world.

So we only know what we have been taught by our existence... how is this proof of anything else though? Still, our minds do not obey the laws of physics, they do what ever they like with what they know or can think of/fantasize about... but we cannot act out everything in our minds due to being unable (at the moment) to break the laws of physics.

Franko: But when aren’t you in the “physical realm”?

Always I am in the physical realm, but my mind does not follow the laws of physics when dreaming - reality and dreams are seperate, thus my point.

Refresh memory - um newworldview - name shane or something, can't remember


Franko: For in the depths of his Soul, a Logical Deist (LD) knows that there is no Truth which is Ultimately Harmful.

Is that because ultimately nothing really matters?


Franko: So you are claiming that YOU DO NOT OBEY THE LAWS OF PHYSICS and instead that you have magic “free will” powers? What is your evidence for this claim?

We obey the laws of physics when relating to the physical world. It does not control the way we think and I don't see any evidence of it being otherwise as to my knowledge - I do in fact, have free will, I am making decisions based on how I feel and think at the time and what I believe may come of it in the future.

Choices are laid before me, I choose which way to go. If everything, right down to the most minute detail is planned, then what is the purpose of life? Experience? For what?



Franko: How are YOU any different than TLOP? In terms of Energy you are nothing more than a framework of laws (an algorithm) that governs a (subset) of energy (and mass). What’s the significant difference you are referring about?

So TLOP is an energy rather than a set of laws as such? An energy that enforces the laws maybe?

Where is this energy?
Is it everywhere all the time making 1,000,000,000,000,000 to the power of 10 decisions every nanosecond?
How is the energy being produced?
When will it run out and...
How has it been able to sustain this long?
(Doesn't this mean that TLOP (Goddess) is above TLOP(itself)? Sounds to me like it is defying one of it's own laws...)
How did it first find existence?
Why did it create anything?
How is just energy conscious if not just the vessel in which signals are transferred between different combinations of matter?


Thank you for any time you take to answer these questions Franko, my main purpose on this forum is to have food for thought and expand my mind by using it... and so far you have allowed me to do this, thanks again!

and Thankyou for the welcome Gentlehorse

[neutrino_cannon]

Originally posted by Franko


What is your evidence for the existence of “free will”?
Tricky 30+ years dedicated to A-Theism: NONE, but I devoutly and dogmatically believe in “free will” anyway!

What is your evidence for the non-existence of “god”?
Tricky 30+ years dedicated to A-Theism: NONE, but I devoutly and dogmatically believe there is NO “god”, and anyone who believes otherwise is a credulous Theist moron!


Only a hard-core creationist could misquote so well. Wait... this inspires me...

[Ossai]

Franko
Ossai, how many times are you going to scream about the “crystal spheres” before that argument sinks in? Shall I post my same response again? How many times are you going to make this same stupid statement? Until I either get tired of cutting and pasting or you answer the question.

If one chicken kills another chicken is that solely the chicken farmer’s fault? Explain how? Let’s see,
1. Does the farmer represent TLOP?
If YES then freewill exists because the farmer only feeds, houses and kills the chicken. The chicken is capable of deciding anything within that framework.
If NO then you question is nothing more than a straw man and you are merely fleeing.

My Goddess didn’t make your Graviton, so if you are destined for annihilation you will have to find someone else to blame. Lord knows an A-Theist can’t take responsibility for his own actions … that would require him to defy Fate. You are mixing creation and control again. Does your goddess, TLOP, control his fate? If yes then it matters not who created him, just who is in control. If your goddess is in control then how can he go against the will of your goddess? As for an atheist taking responsibility, how about you taking a little and answering those basic questions I’ve posted as well as the questions posted by the others, too numerous to name, that you have been avoiding?

Ossai

[Samus]

Atarin,

As I have had this discussion with Franko fairly recently (see What's an atheist (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=14568) thread), allow me to clarify a couple things.

According to Franko, TLOP are like God's hands. They're not God per se, but rather the rules that we play by as members of God's sandbox. Also, just as my poopbox Hyundai isn't able to drive itself, it needs a more conscious being (me) to drive it, Franko draws the conclusion that we are not capable of driving ourselves, that indeed there is a more conscious being (LG, God, whatever you call it) that is driving us. The evidence for this God is that we don't have free will.

The problem I have with this logic is at some point, there has to be some über-conscious being along the line that is not "made/controlled" by something else. Who's to say God is that being? Who's to say humans aren't? Accoding to logical deism, that being is the Progenitor Solipsist. Since I have no evidence for this being existing at all, I'm unsure as to where this chain of makers/controllers ends. Hence my skepticism about the existence of a God. I'm willing to believe God can exist, but I'm also content to believe he doesn't.

Where the confusion really starts is by defining "free will." He defines it as being able to do anything we want, laws of physics be damned. Obviously, I can't decide to jump from the ground to the top of a tall building, because I feel like it. In that context, I do not have free will, I am bound by TLOP that say I can't jump that high.

If free will is defined as the ability to make decisions within the realm of TLOP, then yes, I have free will. I can decide to eat my turkey sandwich I made for lunch, or go to the cafeteria, or even go to Taco Bell. There is no "higher power" that I'm aware of that is forcing me into any one of those three options.

Edited to add: Hey Franko, I'll be down your way early next week (Hanover area specifically), that's about 15-20 minutes from Baltimore, yes? Come on down, I'll buy ya a beer! :)

[pillory]

keep it simple that i had some chances to understand.
if there's nothing to understand, well who cares.

[Acrimonious]

So you are claiming that YOU DO NOT OBEY THE LAWS OF PHYSICS and instead that you have magic “free will” powers? What is your evidence for this claim?

I claimed nothing of the sort. Read my post again. The claims I made involved the logical fallacies you use in trying to make your own claims. I never once made a claim involving "free willy" powers.

Hmm... what's it called when you attack an argument different from the one that was presented to you?

Yet another logical fallacy: Straw Man.



How are YOU any different than TLOP? In terms of Energy you are nothing more than a framework of laws (an algorithm) that governs a (subset) of energy (and mass). What’s the significant difference you are referring about?


You have just taken a very complex organism and broken the thousands of interdependent subsystems into a very simple, specific caricature of what it actually is.

Then you have taken yet another very complex set of underlying rules of the universe, and broken it down into a very simple, specific caricature.

You continue this process until you get to one single characteristic shared between the two, and from that one similarity you claim that the whole of both are equal.

This is a textbook example of the Fallacy of False Analogy.

The fact that you began your comparison by greatly limiting the scope of the comparison ("In terms of Energy") should have tipped you off.



Right, right, but you still have given me any reason or evidence for believing in your “free willy” god religious fanatic?

Straw Man. Please point out where in my previous post I tried to pursuade you into believing in any God.



Why do you believe that claiming you do not obey the laws of physics is a Proof of “free will”? Claiming you do not obey TLOP is not really Logical. It just makes you look like an insane religious nitwit as stubborn as everyone else in their beliefs.


Straw Man yet again. Where did I claim not to follow the laws of physics?


I simply pointed out a few errors in your reasoning. I never argued against your belief system. In fact, if you look again, I said

It's really pointless to argue with Franko

Because it is. You don't listen to other people's arguments, and you attack anyone who even remotely has a suggestion of disagreeing with you with ad hominem.

You are oblivious to the faulty logic behind the defense of your belief system. You did not once deny a claim of fallacy or attempt to modify your arguments to be non-fallatious.

Just Straw Man, Straw Man, Ad Hominem, Straw Man.

Your modus operandi needs to be analazyed, recorded, and organized into a textbook of how not to argue a point.

[Atarin]

dwb,

Thanks, that's what I was getting at, does he believe TLOP -ARE- God, or just what God uses in this reality.

As for free will, there is a difference between having total freedom and total free will.

We are always able to think as we will.
We are not always able to do as we will.

I always thought the free will debate was about whether or not everything is planned by a supra consciousness or not?

I say we do have freewill - there is nothing I can see to suggest otherwise, however, I also accept the possibility that we do not have it and due to this not being of too great an importance, I see no reason to refrain from holding the belief that we do in fact have free will.

I'm choosing to stay up a few more minutes to write this... I chose to accept the invite to go to work tomorrow... Many many choices made of my own accord, strange to tell me that I do not have freewill.

The laws of physics aren't making me go to work, but I will use them to get there.

Regards,
Atarin Virtuar

[wraith]

Originally posted by Atarin
The laws of physics aren't making me go to work, but I will use them to get there.

High Atarin ;)

Just say that you started off as one cell. At this time, you were not self-aware (or at least had a very very weak perception of Time) TLOP is in complete control of you.

As time went on, you became more complex, more cells were added to you and you became more self-aware...yet TLOP is still in complete control.

As more time went by, you became as you are now. You have billions of cells and your perceptions are as strong as ever before.

Because of this, how can you rule out TLOP totally controlling you?
TLOP controlled you from your very simple state to your more complex state.

The only difference being is that youre more self-aware. Yet still under the complete control of TLOP.

To say so otherwise, is an argument for solipsism....where you get your "free-will"

:eek:

[Atarin]

low wraith ;)

Just say that you started off as one cell. At this time, you were not self-aware (or at least had a very very weak perception of Time) TLOP is in complete control of you

TLOP is in complete control because I am simply a cell with no mind... thus being completely physical and my existence purely responding to the elements that surround me



As more time went by, you became as you are now. You have billions of cells and your perceptions are as strong as ever before.
Because of this, how can you rule out TLOP totally controlling you?
TLOP controlled you from your very simple state to your more complex state


As I am now is much, much more complex than a single cell, and who I am etc is now a combination of many cells - each cell is under the control of TLOP maybe (physical entities only) but the combination of those billion's of cells is not - it now has free will (to our understanding - I can demonstrate my free will easily, so I will say I have free will until the "Goddess" as you imagine tells me otherwise) ;)

Dictionary.com quotes solipsism as
The theory that the self is the only thing that can be known and verified.
The theory or view that the self is the only reality.


I wouldn't agree with the first part, as I think more than just the self can be known and verified.
But the second part I would say - The self is the only reality the self can know unless it somehow combines with another consciousness and sees life through a different set of eyes - which maybe true if the whole theory on "Souls enter lives like we go to see movies" is true


You tend to agree with everything Franko has to say, and earlier he said bad gravitons are filtered out so to speak... but if all are under the control of the Goddess and obey her, then what chance do they have? She is making them be bad and is going to get rid of them for it? That's just sick, twisted and returning to ancient times where God's were petty in their doings... (talk about reflection of self in ideas and beliefs)

You can take on this idea as a belief if you like, but I think I'll stick to my gun philosophy of

"Everything is an idea until proven"

Hence I will continue to wait for the real answers to come, and only then will I take on ideas as information ;)

The answers will come, work toward a better future until then.

Regards,
Atarin Virtuar

[wraith]

Originally posted by Atarin
TLOP is in complete control because I am simply a cell with no mind... thus being completely physical and my existence purely responding to the elements that surround me

As I am now is much, much more complex than a single cell, and who I am etc is now a combination of many cells - each cell is under the control of TLOP maybe (physical entities only) but the combination of those billion's of cells is not - it now has free will (to our understanding - I can demonstrate my free will easily, so I will say I have free will until the "Goddess" as you imagine tells me otherwise) ;)

The moon has billions of atoms too. Yet it is under the full control of TLOP.

Same deal with us, only we can perceive our actions....

You tend to agree with everything Franko has to say, and earlier he said bad gravitons are filtered out so to speak... but if all are under the control of the Goddess and obey her, then what chance do they have? She is making them be bad and is going to get rid of them for it? That's just sick, twisted and returning to ancient times where God's were petty in their doings... (talk about reflection of self in ideas and beliefs)

That may be the case if God created you.
But what if God didnt?

God may be controlling you.
She controls the Good Guys and the Bad Guys.
BUT how does God figure out what parts play in life? Id say that she gets it from our intrinsic nature.

OUR emotions/desires....they come from US

Reality is objective. It's logical. If someone makes sense to you, then you form an "Alliance".

Notice how the Christians agree with each other? What about the Muslims? Hell, even the Atheists ;)

You can take on this idea as a belief if you like, but I think I'll stick to my gun philosophy of

"Everything is an idea until proven"

Hence I will continue to wait for the real answers to come, and only then will I take on ideas as information ;)

The answers will come, work toward a better future until then.

copy that
:cool:

[Atarin]

The moon has billions of atoms too. Yet it is under the full control of TLOP.

Same deal with us, only we can perceive our actions....


That's great, but the atoms of the moon are not part of a living organism, thus still just a physical entity and controlled by the laws of physics. We on the other hand have consciousness, therefore only controlled by the laws of physics when trying venture through the physical realm in some manner. Thinking is free of this control, but operates via it (thoughts sent to cells etc).


God may be controlling you.
She controls the Good Guys and the Bad Guys.
BUT how does God figure out what parts play in life? Id say that she gets it from our intrinsic nature.

OUR emotions/desires....they come from US

Our emotions and desires come from us? Meaning TLOP doesn't control us totally? Do you realise you just said this?

Also, your emotions and desires come from the thousands of beliefs you have obtained in your upbringing and day to day life... someone who has never tasted ice cream would hardly desire it... and someone who has never fallen in love wouldn't have a clue what it felt like really... unless told everything about it - everything that happens in life teaches you in some form (it's all experience)

You could argue that the Goddess pushes us into believing certain things which then makes us desire/feel a certain way, which is a form of controlling/making obey... but then, no real evidence of this doesn't make it true, just a theory that could be, but is highly doubtful in my opinion

the theory of souls choosing to come into this world for experience makes much more sense - but there is also no evidence of this theory really, so it's in the same boat, just a more pleseant reality (again, in my opinion)

Reality is objective. It's logical. If someone makes sense to you, then you form an "Alliance".

Why did that need to be stated exactly? It's rare for people to surround themselves with those they can't relate to... why is this? Because everyone seems to have a journey they want to venture upon, and to find others who are on the same journey allows more progress (two minds are better than one)

[MRC_Hans]

It is quite interesting to notice that the Logical Deist actually does believe in free will, despite doggedly denying it. First of all, other people are constantly asked to commit acts of will, like:

- Run off to www.infidels.org
- Be a man and admit you dont know
- Jump off a high building
- etc.

Secondly, the Franko version states that our perceptions are not controlled by the LG, and now the Wraith version says the same about our feelings and desires.

Thus, we can now make a new sillogism, based in the LD idea of the MPB algorithm that is supposed to always steer us (MPB=Most Percieved Benefit):

MPB controls your actions.
You control your percieved benefit.
You control your actions.

Ain't logic a beautiful thing? :p
And I actually think this is a valid syllogism, do correct me if I'm wrong, heheh.

Hans

[Atarin]

According to the dictionary, deism is - The belief, based solely on reason, in a God who created the universe and then abandoned it, assuming no control over life, exerting no influence on natural phenomena, and giving no supernatural revelation.


So why wouldn't a logical deist accept free will?

By the way, am I being classed as a logical deist? or are you talking about someone else?

And if you are talking about me, when did I deny the existence of free will?

[MRC_Hans]

Atarin:

Interesting. Yes, by the real connotations, I realize thay you are probably a logical deist, and actually, so probably am I.

However, I think my post quite evidently referred to the "Logical Deist" (capitalized) of which I know only one specimen, who posts here quite frequently under the aliasses Franko and Wraith.

And that Logical Deist fervently denies the existence of free will, although I'm not sure why, since it neither fits his cosmology well, nor makes much sense when seing his mode of behaviour.

I have noticed your sensible and well-balanced posts here, and I look forward to a friendly discussion with you, should the occasion arise that I disagree with you :)

Hans

[Atarin]

Hey Hans,

I tend to class myself as a "Seeker of Truth" rather than a logical deist or A-theist... or anything conventional for that matter

I am undecided on many things simply because of the philosophy "Everything is an idea until proven" ... as I have said before, the truth will come ;) (no use trying to force things to happen when they can't or won't just yet)

As for Wraith and Franko - Franko speaks a lot differently to Wraith (as in manner of speech, not what they say) and Wraith has been a good friend of mine for over four years now from real life... he referred me to this message board actually... so I can confirm they are not the same person :)

Glad you enjoyed my posts, hope to read more of yours in the near future

Regards,
Atarin Virtuar

[Franko]

Atarin:
That's great, but the atoms of the moon are not part of a living organism, thus still just a physical entity and controlled by the laws of physics. We on the other hand have consciousness, therefore only controlled by the laws of physics when trying venture through the physical realm in some manner. Thinking is free of this control, but operates via it (thoughts sent to cells etc).

Yes, but do you really “think freely”? … free of influence from TLOP? All of your memories, all of your experiences, are the direct products of TLOP. Perhaps if you had never existed in this universe, and had no memories from here you could claim that you “think freely”, but are you not a product of your environment (even if that “environment” were holographic)?

Atarin:
Our emotions and desires come from us? Meaning TLOP doesn't control us totally? Do you realise you just said this?

Also, your emotions and desires come from the thousands of beliefs you have obtained in your upbringing and day to day life... someone who has never tasted ice cream would hardly desire it... and someone who has never fallen in love wouldn't have a clue what it felt like really... unless told everything about it - everything that happens in life teaches you in some form (it's all experience)

Yep … exactly correct. Product of your environment. So the question really becomes what generates the environment? Now, there are a lot of ways to phrase the question, but you can always boiled it down to two mutually exclusive sets, based on the single given that the person reading this exist as a consciousness (perceiving Time). Either:

1) Consciousness generates Reality (Consciousness makes Matter) … or …
2) Consciousness does Not generate Reality (Matter makes Consciousness)

If #2 is True essentially you are claiming that the Universe appeared by incomprehensible random magic, and has no larger meaning or significance. There is no point in trying to comprehend it, because it is inherently (magically) “beyond comprehension”. Ultimately this view is an utter rejection of Science and Logic. It’s Mysticism plain and simple.

Atarin:
You could argue that the Goddess pushes us into believing certain things which then makes us desire/feel a certain way, which is a form of controlling/making obey... but then, no real evidence of this doesn't make it true, just a theory that could be, but is highly doubtful in my opinion

Are you saying there is no evidence that you are being “Conditioned” for certain “random” appearing behavior?

Have you been conditioned not to repeatedly burn your hand on the stove yet? ;)

Atarin:
the theory of souls choosing to come into this world for experience makes much more sense - but there is also no evidence of this theory really, so it's in the same boat, just a more pleseant reality (again, in my opinion)

Listen … it’s very simple: NO SOUL = NO POSSIBLE “free will”, any way, shape or form.

Good to “see” you again, Gargoyle. :cool:

[Ossai]

franko / wraith / Coward
If one chicken kills another chicken is that solely the chicken farmer’s fault? Explain how?

Let’s see,
1. Does the farmer represent TLOP?
If YES then freewill exists because the farmer only feeds, houses and kills the chicken. The chicken is capable of deciding anything within that framework.
If NO then you question is nothing more than a straw man and you are merely fleeing.


My Goddess didn’t make your Graviton, so if you are destined for annihilation you will have to find someone else to blame. Lord knows an A-Theist can’t take responsibility for his own actions … that would require him to defy Fate.

You are mixing creation and control again. Does your goddess, TLOP, control his fate? If yes then it matters not who created him, just who is in control. If your goddess is in control then how can he go against the will of your goddess? As for an atheist taking responsibility, how about you taking a little and answering those basic questions I’ve posted as well as the questions posted by the others, too numerous to name, that you have been avoiding?

The remote controlled car has been impounded while I walk away free and clear.

Ossai

[Franko]

Nitwit:
Let’s see,
1. Does the farmer represent TLOP?

Yes, chicken farmer (let’s use “Shepard” instead) is analogous to God in that example.

If YES then freewill exists because the farmer only feeds, houses and kills the chicken. The chicken is capable of deciding anything within that framework.

It’s still not “free will” you dim bulb, and as for your second “conclusion” THAT WAS THE ENTIRE POINT – You nitwit! Remember, God creates this Universe … but She didn’t create You.

… But something else did, and that “Thing” made you to obey Logical rules. You are like a program, an algorithm, and your Fate has been preordained by your code and the data you carry.

If NO then you question is nothing more than a straw man and you are merely fleeing.

I love, YOU demonstrating your Hypocrisy little insect.

Franko:
My Goddess didn’t make your Graviton, so if you are destined for annihilation you will have to find someone else to blame. Lord knows an A-Theist can’t take responsibility for his own actions … that would require him to defy Fate.

De-Bungler:
You are mixing creation and control again. Does your goddess, TLOP, control his fate? If yes then it matters not who created him, just who is in control. If your goddess is in control then how can he go against the will of your goddess?

He can’t go against Her commands while he is in this Universe. Here he is just an observer. He’s just being tested. Ma’at’s weighing his Soul.

As for an atheist taking responsibility, how about you taking a little and answering those basic questions I’ve posted as well as the questions posted by the others, too numerous to name, that you have been avoiding?

I’ve answered them. You and your “friends” just can’t accept the notion that the Earth is anything but Flat. Obviously I am wrong, because all of the people would fall off the Southern Hemisphere.

The remote controlled car has been impounded while I walk away free and clear.

Have your boyfriend whack you upside the head with a baseball bat as hard as he can … you will “walk” away from this universe free and clear.

[Atarin]

Franko: Yes, but do you really “think freely”? … free of influence from TLOP? All of your memories, all of your experiences, are the direct products of TLOP. Perhaps if you had never existed in this universe, and had no memories from here you could claim that you “think freely”, but are you not a product of your environment (even if that “environment” were holographic)?


Of course I am greatly influenced by the laws of physics and the universe, but I still think freely as there are choices - and my decisions are based on "What would lead to the best outcome for me and everyone else around me?"

The universe and the laws of physics don't make me choose certain things to do... They just present me with ways of acquiring certain experiences and then I use them. - Your theory is unprovable, this theory comes straight from life observation... so I'll state it as fact for the time being (innocent until proven guilty when it comes to this sort of topic... like whether time is real or not - we percieve time, therefore it is real until proven not (just an example, not a real theory)).

Yep … exactly correct. Product of your environment. So the question really becomes what generates the environment? Now, there are a lot of ways to phrase the question, but you can always boiled it down to two mutually exclusive sets, based on the single given that the person reading this exist as a consciousness (perceiving Time). Either:

1) Consciousness generates Reality (Consciousness makes Matter) … or …
2) Consciousness does Not generate Reality (Matter makes Consciousness)

If #2 is True essentially you are claiming that the Universe appeared by incomprehensible random magic, and has no larger meaning or significance. There is no point in trying to comprehend it, because it is inherently (magically) “beyond comprehension”. Ultimately this view is an utter rejection of Science and Logic. It’s Mysticism plain and simple.



- This comes back to an age old question which is almost impossible to answer - Which came first, the chicken or the egg - or more accurately, which came first, consciousness, or existence... no matter which one you choose, it'll result in the next question "How did it come about?"

The only answer we can really give is uncomprehendible for most... if not all - "It has always been and will always be"

As for the theory (in basic form) The Godddess/Laws of Physics created everything in your life, thus controlling your thoughts- pursuading your thoughts to choose a certain path - eg. Do not touch fire, it is hot.

I came up with a theory that worked with that whole "soul comes into this life for experience" theory that seems to relate to this one.

Basically the soul plans the entire life it's going to live in the physical - no limit on creative power assuming - so no matter what choice you make, it was predetermined by your soul.

You can't really go against that argument at all, it's pretty much flawless apart from the fact there is no real proof... which is why I haven't taken it on, otherwise it makes sense, it's air tight, and quite possible when you think about it.

You say the Goddess is controlling us? Here's a question... why? And then judges /gets rid of the bad ones? So she creates them, then thinks her creation is not worthy of the next level, so gets rid of them? Right... wouldn't it be a better idea to just create perfect ones instead of going through all the hassle? Afterall, there is no free will according to you, so there is no choice for them to make or prove themselves worthy?

Listen … it’s very simple: NO SOUL = NO POSSIBLE “free will”, any way, shape or form.

Good to “see” you again, Gargoyle.

No soul = no possible free will? Are you sure? What if indeed we are a product of an amazing evolutionary process, somehow building brain power thus being everything we think we are today? That would make free will possible right?


You base your theories on the conclusions you have come to by yourself, but you don't actually have any real evidence/proof of what you say... just all speculation, thus your theories are no more true than mine or anyone elses. Have you spoken with this Goddess? If it is more conscious than you and you are obeying it, don't you think it would be able to communicate with you on a level other than this reality? As in, not just - "look around you, everything is a communication" - I mean direct communication, with a voice of it's own... Like God appeared to Moses apparently

Oh well, as long as you don't start shouting "IN THE NAME OF THE GODDESS, ALMIGHT LAWS OF PHYSICS!" while drawing your sword and charing on a poor defenseless village, I guess you can believe what ever you like.



Regards,
Atarin Virtuar

P.S Have you concluded all this that relates to your beliefs due to anxiety or some other issue that could greatly unbalance your mental state? Or are you impatient? Or perhaps you didn't think about that side of it and just found something that makes sense, then started to live entirely by it?

If you have any real proof (not just speculation) please post it so I may understand you better, thanks.

[Franko]

Atrain:
Of course I am greatly influenced by the laws of physics and the universe …

“Greatly influenced”? What EXACTLY are you claiming is part of YOU that is not a direct result of TLOP?

… but I still think freely as there are choices …

How so? Unless you are asserting the existence of some form of “Soul” I don’t see any “You that could possibly be making “choices”

… and my decisions are based on "What would lead to the best outcome for me and everyone else around me?"

Really? If you don’t believe that there are consequences for your actions, why should I assume that you will act any differently?

Donated any money to a Catholic church lately? Does belief and actions have any relationship according to you?

The universe and the laws of physics don't make me choose certain things to do...

What are you talking about? Isn’t your brain just a bunch of chemicals obeying TLOP just like ALL chemicals do? If not, then why not? What is so magical and special about the chemicals in your brain? Is “your” carbon more magical than other carbon?

They just present me with ways of acquiring certain experiences and then I use them.

What is the “me” you are referring to?

Your theory is unprovable, this theory comes straight from life observation... so I'll state it as fact for the time being (innocent until proven guilty when it comes to this sort of topic... like whether time is real or not - we percieve time, therefore it is real until proven not (just an example, not a real theory)).

???

Your “free willy” is what is unproveable. Why should I believe you when you claim that you have “free will”? You have presented no evidence for “free will”, and all of the evidence would seem to indicate that “You” have none.

As for Time … if you want to continue pretending that Time cannot exist in any meaningful, logical comprehensible way, I guess us mere figments will just have to take your word for it.

This comes back to an age old question which is almost impossible to answer

Impossible? Based on what you’re a-Theism (Pessimism), narrow-mindedness, divine dogma, or your short-sightedness?

Which came first, the chicken or the egg - or more accurately, which came first, consciousness, or existence... no matter which one you choose, it'll result in the next question "How did it come about?"

I thought you covered that already? … you are an inherent property of Time itself.

I can explain it again, unless you have a reason for not wanting to talk about it?

The only answer we can really give is uncomprehendible for most... if not all - "It has always been and will always be"

You never strike a target any higher than what you were aiming for. If you want to pretend that things are incomprehensible, don’t be surprised when your self-fulfilling prophecy comes True.

As for the theory (in basic form) The Godddess/Laws of Physics created everything in your life, thus controlling your thoughts- pursuading your thoughts to choose a certain path - eg. Do not touch fire, it is hot.

I came up with a theory that worked with that whole "soul comes into this life for experience" theory that seems to relate to this one.

Basically the soul plans the entire life it's going to live in the physical - no limit on creative power assuming - so no matter what choice you make, it was predetermined by your soul.

More or less, you were just a lot less self-aware at the time. Unless you want to pretend that Solipsism is still True now?

You can't really go against that argument at all, it's pretty much flawless apart from the fact there is no real proof... which is why I haven't taken it on, otherwise it makes sense, it's air tight, and quite possible when you think about it.

I’m sorry, are we talking about A-Theism/Pseudo-materialism again? I thought you wanted to discuss reality? Why don’t you explain why your religion is more likely than Solipsism? I mean seriously … I bet you can’t even keep track of all your figments at this point?

You say the Goddess is controlling us? Here's a question... why?

What do you mean? I’m simply a figment of your imagination? Why are you controlling me and making me pretend that there is a Goddess?

… And then judges /gets rid of the bad ones? So she creates them, then thinks her creation is not worthy of the next level, so gets rid of them?

Does She create them now? If She is the one creating them, then why would She need to judge them? That doesn’t make any sense, but I guess if your are really fanatical about not believing the Truth it is as good a dogma as any? I guess it is much easier to not believe in a “God” when you limit yourself to only imagining a logically contradictory god.

Right... wouldn't it be a better idea to just create perfect ones instead of going through all the hassle? Afterall, there is no free will according to you, so there is no choice for them to make or prove themselves worthy?

Apparently you are choosing to ignore what I told you about the PS (the one who started it all). He didn’t comprehend Individuality. How could he?

No soul = no possible free will? Are you sure? What if indeed we are a product of an amazing evolutionary process, somehow building brain power thus being everything we think we are today? That would make free will possible right?

You tell me? How can you be utterly controlled by something and claim to have “free will”? I guess when you call yourself “A-Theist” logic just goes totally out the window along with consequences and responsibility?

You base your theories on the conclusions you have come to by yourself, but you don't actually have any real evidence/proof of what you say... just all speculation, thus your theories are no more true than mine or anyone elses.

More mind reading? You A-Theists and your magic powers never cease to amaze.

Yes obviously you have far more evidence for “free will” than I have for Fatalism.

Too bad your “evidence” for magic powers is also evidence that the Bible is inerrant. Well, it is like I always say, there’s really not much difference between an A-Theist and a Bible Literalist.

Have you spoken with this Goddess? If it is more conscious than you and you are obeying it, don't you think it would be able to communicate with you on a level other than this reality? As in, not just - "look around you, everything is a communication" - I mean direct communication, with a voice of it's own... Like God appeared to Moses apparently.

Everything you perceive through your senses is relayed to you through TLOP.

TLOP is the only form of Input your receive.

But then again, I’m probably just a figment of your imagination and your are the real source of TLOP. I mean … come on! What’s more likely an entire Universe magically appearing or just YOU magically appearing and then imagining everything else?

Oh well, as long as you don't start shouting "IN THE NAME OF THE GODDESS, ALMIGHT LAWS OF PHYSICS!" while drawing your sword and charing on a poor defenseless village, I guess you can believe what ever you like.

Ohh, you mean I have your permission to have an opinion now? Hehehe … unfortunately you haven’t given me the power to believe anything. I’m just a algorithm running in your subconscious mind.

Have you concluded all this that relates to your beliefs due to anxiety or some other issue that could greatly unbalance your mental state? Or are you impatient? Or perhaps you didn't think about that side of it and just found something that makes sense, then started to live entirely by it?

I’m not sure? What do you think I should believe? I guess I just found that “free will” was a meaningless concept developed by nitwit A-Theist who wanted to pretend that there wouldn’t be any consequences for their actions?

If you have any real proof (not just speculation) please post it so I may understand you better, thanks.

Proof? … ohhh, you “smart” a-Theists have already decided that coins always land TAILs up based on No Evidence? With “Logic” like that how could anyone possibly Prove You Wrong??? :confused:

[Atarin]

Franko: “Greatly influenced”? What EXACTLY are you claiming is part of YOU that is not a direct result of TLOP?

My mind is influenced, it is not controlled by - it works by, but is not controlled by.

How so? Unless you are asserting the existence of some form of “Soul” I don’t see any “You that could possibly be making “choices”

Easy, read this
I have a choice whether to type yes or no

- Yes

Hey look at that, I chose yes... that was a choice, I can't make it any more simpler.

Really? If you don’t believe that there are consequences for your actions, why should I assume that you will act any differently?

Donated any money to a Catholic church lately? Does belief and actions have any relationship according to you?


Who said there were no consequences? I believe there are, you'd have to be an idiot not to realise that. Simple cause and effect - I'm not talking about the way you think of it, as in KARMA and all that, which I doubt is real and have other theories on how things work.

Cause and effect - An apple splatters over a wall (effect) because I threw it as hard as I could (cause)

You hit someone - you're going to get some sort of reaction
Cause and effect
Action and reaction

Donate money to a church? I don't go near religions due to many bad experiences - I'll stick to my journey thanks.

[QOUTE]What are you talking about? Isn’t your brain just a bunch of chemicals obeying TLOP just like ALL chemicals do? If not, then why not? What is so magical and special about the chemicals in your brain? Is “your” carbon more magical than other carbon?[/QUOTE]


My mind works and obeys the laws of physics, but the information carried in it does not - how I see things is up to me. Nothing magical there, just the combination in my head allows me to be conscious, other carbon materials are not.


What is the “me” you are referring to?

The me - the who I am on this level - no way out theories on souls or anything, keep it grounded until evidence to suggest otherwise is brought to our attention.


Your “free willy” is what is unproveable. Why should I believe you when you claim that you have “free will”? You have presented no evidence for “free will”, and all of the evidence would seem to indicate that “You” have none.

As for Time … if you want to continue pretending that Time cannot exist in any meaningful, logical comprehensible way, I guess us mere figments will just have to take your word for it.


What evidence do you speak of? I demonstrated free will earlier in this reply. Asking for evidence of free will is like asking for evidence of the sun's existence.

As for Time ... time does exist (obviously, we're percieving it right now)... again we're asking for evidence of the sun's existence. I'm keeping all this pretty low level because we have no proof of higher level existence, thus you cannot win these debates until you bring your Goddess out of the shadows of fantasy and into the light of reality (same applies to all your theories, you say The laws of physics? well, lets get some scientists to prove it then!).

Impossible? Based on what you’re a-Theism (Pessimism), narrow-mindedness, divine dogma, or your short-sightedness?


That seems more like an insult rather than an intellectual question... I am beginning to see where I stand with you now... try keep this friendly and as a debate maybe?

And I said "almost" impossible if you didn't notice, as in, it is very hard to answer because we cannot access information from the beginning of the universe because we did not exist back then - and if you say you did, I say prove it, enough dancing around with your theories that you seem to so blindly believe as fact.

I thought you covered that already? … you are an inherent property of Time itself.

I can explain it again, unless you have a reason for not wanting to talk about it?

You have theories, as I have... and you agreed with the one's I put before you, however, you hold them as fact where as I keep them as theories - I have no proof of them being true, as I have said a million times before, thus I will not take them on as an actual belief. (Although I will use them for my own personal gain as I explore them)

You never strike a target any higher than what you were aiming for. If you want to pretend that things are incomprehensible, don’t be surprised when your self-fulfilling prophecy comes True.


Incomprehensible... thats the word I wanted

As for the never striking a target any higher than what you were aiming for... that's not true, sometimes you don't know your own ability and end up greatly surpassing your goal.

Which prophecy is that? My signature? I won't be suprised, I'll be happy... if it does, just hopeful, idea, blah, said this a million times now.

More or less, you were just a lot less self-aware at the time. Unless you want to pretend that Solipsism is still True now?


A lot less self aware when? Solipsism is still true now? Huh? I never said it was true, so how could we pretend it is "still" true?

I’m sorry, are we talking about A-Theism/Pseudo-materialism again? I thought you wanted to discuss reality? Why don’t you explain why your religion is more likely than Solipsism? I mean seriously … I bet you can’t even keep track of all your figments at this point?

My religion? It's ground level, I think you are taking all the ideas I post as my beliefs, regardless of how many times I say they are just ideas, nothing more?

You bet I can't even keep track of all my figments at this point? What do you mean by that exactly?

Solipsism - that's when the one individual is the only thing that exists in reality -but it's easy to prove otherwise - unless there is a greater goddess and we are all being controlled by her, thus she is the only being that really exists... but what evidence is there of that?

What do you mean? I’m simply a figment of your imagination? Why are you controlling me and making me pretend that there is a Goddess

I never said that and I don't agree with it? Why are you making out like I am saying that? Really Franko, get some maturity and stop putting words into my mouth.

I expect higher of you, come on, don't disappoint me or I will look for serious debate elsewhere.


Does She create them now? If She is the one creating them, then why would She need to judge them? That doesn’t make any sense, but I guess if your are really fanatical about not believing the Truth it is as good a dogma as any? I guess it is much easier to not believe in a “God” when you limit yourself to only imagining a logically contradictory god.

I don't know, does she? I was asking you questions? Do you not understand what a question is?

What truth? The truth you think is truth? Yeah ok, and how do you know that is truth jeenyuss?

I don't believe in a god, I hold ideas and hopes that there is one.

Apparently you are choosing to ignore what I told you about the PS (the one who started it all). He didn’t comprehend Individuality. How could he?

That doesn't answer my questions, please try again.
- wouldn't it be a better idea to just create perfect ones instead of going through all the hassle? Afterall, there is no free will according to you, so there is no choice for them to make or prove themselves worthy?

I'm basically probing your theory to see what you think the purpose of all this is for- exist or not, who cares... in the end it doesn't matter - and even if there is a Goddess, what's after heaven? Happiness? Damn, we could have got that just over a chemical balance and not had to go through all this other stuff... please tell me what the ultimate purpose instated by your Goddess is

You tell me? How can you be utterly controlled by something and claim to have “free will”? I guess when you call yourself “A-Theist” logic just goes totally out the window along with consequences and responsibility?


Logic goes out the window? What, like the logic you should have when knowing better than just blindly believing theories you come up with because they make sense?

Oh and who said we were controlled apart from the one who is basing a million theories on no real evidence?

More mind reading? You A-Theists and your magic powers never cease to amaze.

Yes obviously you have far more evidence for “free will” than I have for Fatalism.

Too bad your “evidence” for magic powers is also evidence that the Bible is inerrant. Well, it is like I always say, there’s really not much difference between an A-Theist and a Bible Literalist.


Mind reading? no, just general observation that many could have made. So I'm an A-theist now? Make up your mind... you seem to have called me everything now...

I am not an athiest, because I believe there is something out there, but that's just my own personal feeling and observation... it's not something I hold as fact because I have no proof... the answers will come one day though

Magic powers? What magic powers? you mean the ones possessed by your invisible, imaginery goddess?

Everything you perceive through your senses is relayed to you through TLOP.

TLOP is the only form of Input your receive.

But then again, I’m probably just a figment of your imagination and your are the real source of TLOP. I mean … come on! What’s more likely an entire Universe magically appearing or just YOU magically appearing and then imagining everything else?


You still seem incapable of understanding this point - Yes everything works by TLOP, because everything we know of is physical. But the combination of everything that forms our minds allows us to be conscious and use data that doesn't comply with the laws of physics.

The laws of physics relate to how things work in the physical world, not what you think, just the way your thoughts are transferred etc.

Ohh, you mean I have your permission to have an opinion now? Hehehe … unfortunately you haven’t given me the power to believe anything. I’m just a algorithm running in your subconscious mind.

what the? you're crazy man, seriously, you continually make out like I think you're just a figment of my imagination when I said nothing of the sort... get a clue, please, it's boring me

I’m not sure? What do you think I should believe? I guess I just found that “free will” was a meaningless concept developed by nitwit A-Theist who wanted to pretend that there wouldn’t be any consequences for their actions?

The answer I'd have to give to this would be too long, so forgive me for not bothering and just saying your perception seems limited to me.

Proof? … ohhh, you “smart” a-Theists have already decided that coins always land TAILs up based on No Evidence? With “Logic” like that how could anyone possibly Prove You Wrong???

You class me constantly and then insult me aswell, this is beyond a joke, I have better things to do than listen to crazy people talk about their theories that they believe are absolute fact.

The coin will land on what ever side depending on the force applied, which side was first flicked, and distance to the ground or surface it lands on... I thought this was fairly obvious, what is taking you so long to understand how it works mr "I think I know everything about THE LAWS OF PHYSICS"?

Possibly last reply
Each to their own... you live your journey, I'll live mine, no negativity from this shall follow me
Forgiven
Cya...

Atarin Virtuar

[wraith]

Just a note....

For Karma to "work", you have to acknowledge Fate

[Q-Source]

Originally posted by wraith
Just a note....

For Karma to "work", you have to acknowledge Fate

Just another note...

For Fate to "work", you have to acknowledge that TLOP control YOU control CAR

For TLOP control YOU to "work" you have to acknowledge that TLOP is conscious

and so on... :p

[Unas]

Originally posted by Franko
As for seeking the Truth … that is what Logical Deism is all about. It is a philosophy for those not afraid to seek the Truth at ANY and ALL costs.If Franko is so devoted to seeking "the Truth", then why does he lie about what others have said?

[PixyMisa]

At least he's even-handed. He also lies about what he has said himself.

[Unas]

Originally posted by Franko
What is your evidence for the existence of “free will”?
Tricky 30+ years dedicated to A-Theism: NONE, but I devoutly and dogmatically believe in “free will” anyway!

What is your evidence for the non-existence of “god”?
Tricky 30+ years dedicated to A-Theism: NONE, but I devoutly and dogmatically believe there is NO “god”, and anyone who believes otherwise is a credulous Theist moron! For those who needed them, the above are just two examples of Franko lying about what someone else has said.

[wraith]

Originally posted by Q-Source


Just another note...

For Fate to "work", you have to acknowledge that TLOP control YOU control CAR

For TLOP control YOU to "work" you have to acknowledge that TLOP is conscious

and so on... :p

Even if TLOP were really random, you're still obeying random TLOP
;)

[wraith]

Originally posted by Unas
For those who needed them, the above are just two examples of Franko lying about what someone else has said.

Anus, youre the spam king, Ill give you that...

oh by the way, Tricky did say what Franko posted...do a search on Tricky and view any of his posts...

[wraith]

Originally posted by PixyMisa
At least he's even-handed. He also lies about what he has said himself.

Pixy, you should really do something about that quote of yours :rolleyes:

[Q-Source]

Originally posted by wraith


Even if TLOP were really random, you're still obeying random TLOP


So what?
Does that make it conscious? :rolleyes:

Hey, wraith , you're doing an excellent job as a recruiter. But you must remember that you need to make your mind first. You're still not sure whether or not God is a female, you are not convinced of many other things. You have a long life to explore many other options. Even, if this one is the correct, you have to get there by yourself.

Use your brain, wraith. :cool:

Q-S

[hammegk]

Originally posted by wraith
Just a note....

For Karma to "work", you have to acknowledge Fate

I'd say that Karma & Fate will get along fine whether one consciously acknowledges them or not. ;)

[MRC_Hans]

As for Wraith and Franko - Franko speaks a lot differently to Wraith (as in manner of speech, not what they say) and Wraith has been a good friend of mine for over four years now from real life... he referred me to this message board actually... so I can confirm they are not the same person Mmm, lately, Franko and Wraith have developed somewhat different styles. Earlier they were much the same. I have on several occations been able to hold a continuous discussion with the pair of them, while consitently treatening them as one person.

Do you know Franko too? Otherwise, how can you testify that he is not Wraith?

Not that it matters, really :rolleyes:

Hans

[Atarin]

Easy, Wraith is a good friend of mine

Franko is not

;)

No I don't know Franko in real life... but that would be more because he hasn't got a life and spends all his time online trying to convince people of his "no real evidence to suggest what I say" theories!



Atarin Virtuar

[Unas]

Originally posted by wraith
oh by the way, Tricky did say what Franko posted...do a search on Tricky and view any of his posts... I have done so.

As of this writing, there are only two posts from Tricky in which the phrase "credulous Theist moron" appears. In each case, the phrase appears in a quote from Franko.

There are no posts in which Tricky himself uses the phrase.

Wraith may wish to explain why he is attempting to defend Franko's lies.

[MRC_Hans]

Originally posted by Atarin
Easy, Wraith is a good friend of mine

Franko is not

;)

No I don't know Franko in real life... but that would be more because he hasn't got a life and spends all his time online trying to convince people of his "no real evidence to suggest what I say" theories!



Atarin Virtuar Mmm, OK. Not axactly proof, as the person you know might post as both of them, but for now, your word is good enough for me. Soo, I will consider debating Wraith again.

Hans

[Ossai]

Franko
It’s still not “free will” you dim bulb, and as for your second “conclusion” THAT WAS THE ENTIRE POINT – You nitwit! Remember, God creates this Universe … but She didn’t create You.

… But something else did, and that “Thing” made you to obey Logical rules. You are like a program, an algorithm, and your Fate has been preordained by your code and the data you carry. Then the creator created humanity within the framework but doesn’t control it’s creations.

He can’t go against Her commands while he is in this Universe. Here he is just an observer. He’s just being tested. Ma’at’s weighing his Soul. But if humanity is completely being controlled then what good is the test when they have no ability to go against the rules. Again it boils down to punishing people for what the controller is doing.

The car is impounded and I walk away free and clear.

Remember, God creates this Universe … but She didn’t create You. Is god in control of the universe. It sound like you are blaming the gun but not the person that pulled the trigger.

The car is impounded and I walk away free and clear.

Ossai