Wizard of Oz religious fanatics

[Abdul Alhazred]

L. Frank Baum and the Not-So-Wonderful Wizard of Oz (http://www.blessedquietness.com/journal/homemake/wizardoz.htm)

The Wonderful Wizard of Oz movie starring Judy Garland has become a classic. The series of books that it is founded upon and the life of the author however point very strongly to an occult and/or Luciferian connection.

Whatever Baum's actual beliefs may have been it is obvious from a look at his work that he was full of evil ideas, and he apparently made no pretense of being a Christian. His writings are boldly Anti-christ as we may see even from the title of the his main book, for Wonderful is one of the Lord Jesus Christ's proper names. Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. I think this guy needs to pay more attention to the man behind the curtain. :rolleyes:

[Zep]

Oh no! He's onto us!

[Ratman_tf]

I liked the book better than the movie.

[Dragon]

"I think we're back in Kansas again, Toto!"

[Cynical]

You worded the caption wrong in your picture, Zep. It should read:


"Don't pay any attention to the man behind the curtain."

And if CFLarsen wants proof of that, he can damn well watch the movie.:rolleyes:

[Cynical]

OHHHHHH, ****. :rs: :rs: :rs: Now I see what you meant, Zep.

Oh, the embarrassment.

[Rolfe]

Originally posted by Cynical
OHHHHHH, *****. :rs: :rs: :rs: Now I see what you meant, Zep. In that case, care to explain for those of us less quick on the uptake? :o

Rolfe.

[cbish]

I was told the Wizard of Oz was a political book supporting the development of a money standard (Emerald City) based on a gold standard (yellow brick road). Dorothy (avg american) follows road to financial bliss with tin man (industry), straw man (agriculture) and lion (general overall consumer confidence) against the nay-sayers (witches) of the time. I've never heard of any religious connection.

Don't ask me the significance of the little people. I think they were added in because they were fun to party with on the set.

[Nyarlathotep]

Originally posted by cbish
I was told the Wizard of Oz was a political book supporting the development of a money standard (Emerald City) based on a gold standard (yellow brick road). Dorothy (avg american) follows road to financial bliss with tin man (industry), straw man (agriculture) and lion (general overall consumer confidence) against the nay-sayers (witches) of the time. I've never heard of any religious connection.

Don't ask me the significance of the little people. I think they were added in because they were fun to party with on the set.

Not likely. I wouldn't call it an urban legend (there was some support for the idea for a while) but
Baum's politics (http://www.halcyon.com/piglet/Populism.htm) didn't lean that way and he himself claimed that his stories werre whimisical fantasies and nothing more.

I think that idea goes with the idea that The Lord of the Rings was an allegory for WWII, in that people can find a lot of unintended symbolism in a book if they try hard enough.

[cbish]

nyarlathotep wrote:
Not likely. I wouldn't call it an urban legend (there was some support for the idea for a while) but
Baum's politics didn't lean that way and he himself claimed that his stories werre whimisical fantasies and nothing more.



Hmmm.....interesting. I was taught that in college. In U.S. history my freshman year. Oh well!

[Nyarlathotep]

Originally posted by cbish
nyarlathotep wrote:



Hmmm.....interesting. I was taught that in college. In U.S. history my freshman year. Oh well!

Not surprising. It was a popular and accepted theory for a while

[Zep]

Originally posted by Rolfe
In that case, care to explain for those of us less quick on the uptake? :o

Rolfe. He's talking about ME, or possibly the person looking at the picture of the Wizard. The picture exhorts the viewer to ignore themselves, effectively. A double entendre (and exactly as I so cunningly planned).

:confused: :confused: :confused:

[Rolfe]

Originally posted by Zep
The picture exhorts the viewer to ignore themselves, effectively.That's awfully subtle! Too clever for little me. :D

Rolfe.

[sweetkb713]

Originally posted by cbish
Don't ask me the significance of the little people. I think they were added in because they were fun to party with on the set.

I literally laughed out loud at this, which is embarrassing because I'm currently in the middle of a computer lab at school. And I'm the attendant.

I think so many people read TOO much symbolism into things.

For instance, my junior year of high school I had an honors English teacher who told us that Jim (from Huckleberry Finn) got his name because they rode the river on a raft made of timbers, and "tim" rhymes with "Jim."

I swear to god I am not making this up! She also said that Huckleberry got his name because he was wild like the huckleberries. I can see that, but it seems a little too obvious.

The kicker was when a kid brought in a biography of Twain that said that Huckleberry was the local homeless kid. Boy, was that teacher mad!

[cbish]

sweetkb713 wrote:
I think so many people read TOO much symbolism into things

My brother is an english teacher and he speaks of this often.

Laughing out loud in class, huh. I've done that before on this board. My class gives me a bad time about it, especially when they're testing.

[Kopji]

"sometimes a cigar is just a cigar" -S Freud

The best storytellers seem to be able to draw creatively from the issues and people of the times they live. I suspect authors, artists, and poets would enjoy reading about their work 100 years later, and having a good laugh.

[Tricky]

Originally posted by sweetkb713
For instance, my junior year of high school I had an honors English teacher who told us that Jim (from Huckleberry Finn) got his name because they rode the river on a raft made of timbers, and "tim" rhymes with "Jim."

I swear to god I am not making this up! She also said that Huckleberry got his name because he was wild like the huckleberries. I can see that, but it seems a little too obvious.

The kicker was when a kid brought in a biography of Twain that said that Huckleberry was the local homeless kid. Boy, was that teacher mad!
She obviously didn't read the prologue to Huckleberry Finn.
"Persons attempting to find a motive in this narrative will be prosecuted; persons attempting to find a moral in it will be banished; persons attempting to find a plot in it will be shot."
-Mark Twain

[Nyarlathotep]

Originally posted by Kopji
"sometimes a cigar is just a cigar" -S Freud

The best storytellers seem to be able to draw creatively from the issues and people of the times they live. I suspect authors, artists, and poets would enjoy reading about their work 100 years later, and having a good laugh.

I suspect that you are right.

I don't know about anyone else but I find that when an author goes out of his way to insert symbolism into a story, it usually either grinds the story to a screeching halt or renders it incomprehensible.

[Loon]

Originally posted by Nyarlathotep

I suspect that you are right.

I don't know about anyone else but I find that when an author goes out of his way to insert symbolism into a story, it usually either grinds the story to a screeching halt or renders it incomprehensible.

Worse is (are?) teachers who insist on finding the symbols in a book and seem to act like that's all the book is good for. Like the most important thing you could possibly get out of "The Great Gatsby" is that the blinking green light resembles "hope."

[sweetkb713]

Originally posted by Nyarlathotep


I don't know about anyone else but I find that when an author goes out of his way to insert symbolism into a story, it usually either grinds the story to a screeching halt or renders it incomprehensible.

I agree 100%. That's why I cannot read James Joyce.

[pgwenthold]

Originally posted by cbish
nyarlathotep wrote:



Hmmm.....interesting. I was taught that in college. In U.S. history my freshman year. Oh well!

TWoO story can be used to demonstrate aspects of populism, but that does not mean that it was intended to.

In the same way, the solar system can be used to demonstrate certain aspects of the Bohr model of the atom, but that does not mean that the solar system was created for that purpose.

That's the distinction that needs to be made.

[Nyarlathotep]

Originally posted by sweetkb713


I agree 100%. That's why I cannot read James Joyce.

It's funny because Joyce was one of the authors I specifically had in mind when I wrote that statement.

[hgc]

In the book Wicked, the Life and Times of the Wicked Witch of the West, by Gregory Maguire, the wizard is a fascist-like dictator, propped up by a racist, fundamentalist religious hierarchy. The yellow brick road is a vastly over-budget, already decaying public works project. Emerald City is a totalitarian metropolis, with loads of poor, oppressed proles. Much re-imagining of the religious/political dynamics of Oz went into this wonderful book. Highly recommended.

[Bottle or the Gun]

Play Pink Floyd's 'Dark Side of the Moon' while watching this gif. You'll see how uncanny it is that the dancing completely matches the album. Also works with soundtrack to 'Xanadu'.

http://www.xpphotoalbum.com/data/500/3725av-52783.gif?7982

[sweetkb713]

Originally posted by Nyarlathotep


It's funny because Joyce was one of the authors I specifically had in mind when I wrote that statement.

My teacher that year would make us go through and write down all the color references, analyze them according to the list she gave us, and then tell her what the chapter meant page by page.

One reason I hate honors English.

Someone who has to put that much thought into their work is not worth reading, IMO. If you have such a strong message, then just tell us instead of coding it in cryptic words.

[Nyarlathotep]

Originally posted by hgc
In the book Wicked, the Life and Times of the Wicked Witch of the West, by Gregory Maguire, the wizard is a fascist-like dictator, propped up by a racist, fundamentalist religious hierarchy. The yellow brick road is a vastly over-budget, already decaying public works project. Emerald City is a totalitarian metropolis, with loads of poor, oppressed proles. Much re-imagining of the religious/political dynamics of Oz went into this wonderful book. Highly recommended.

My wife and my 14 year old daughter read that book and have reccomended it just as highly. I guess i'm going to have to read it

[Toastrider]

Bottle or the Gun: Supposedly (I've never tried this), you can play that entire album and the songs will match the movie's content dead on. I'm not exactly sure what the timeframe is (like, 14sec after movie start?), but I've heard folks who did it say it's unnerving.

--Toasty

[pgwenthold]

Originally posted by Toastrider
Bottle or the Gun: Supposedly (I've never tried this), you can play that entire album and the songs will match the movie's content dead on.

Only if you place fast and loose with the concept of "dead on."

The claim is that there are a lot of cool matchups. "Dead on" So, does the Dark Side of the Moon talk about Sylvester the horse? Does it refer to Toto eating Professor Marvel's hot dog?

What about when they drop the wagon on the Scarecrow's finger?

If it misses a lot of things, can it really be "dead on"?

[hgc]

Originally posted by pgwenthold


Only if you place fast and loose with the concept of "dead on."

The claim is that there are a lot of cool matchups. "Dead on" So, does the Dark Side of the Moon talk about Sylvester the horse? Does it refer to Toto eating Professor Marvel's hot dog?

What about when they drop the wagon on the Scarecrow's finger?

If it misses a lot of things, can it really be "dead on"?
There is one "dead on" moment. When Dorothy opens the door to the farm house, to reveal the colorful world of Oz, the bells are ringing in "Money." Highly subjective, I know, but it works.

[pgwenthold]

Originally posted by hgc

There is one "dead on" moment. When Dorothy opens the door to the farm house, to reveal the colorful world of Oz, the bells are ringing in "Money." Highly subjective, I know, but it works.

I have heard something about when Dorothy falls into the pig pen, but I don't remember the details.

Although, I gotta say, this is a hit that would make John Edwards proud.

[Kerberos]

Originally posted by cbish
I was told the Wizard of Oz was a political book supporting the development of a money standard (Emerald City) based on a gold standard (yellow brick road). Dorothy (avg american) follows road to financial bliss with tin man (industry), straw man (agriculture) and lion (general overall consumer confidence) against the nay-sayers (witches) of the time. I've never heard of any religious connection.

Don't ask me the significance of the little people. I think they were added in because they were fun to party with on the set.
According to my economy book the Wizard of Oz is in opposition to the gold standard, since the yellow brick road is perilous. The problems are solved when Dorothy discovers the magic power of her silver slippers, meaning that the author supports a mixed gold and silver standard. Also the Lion is supposed to symbolize the republican presidential candidate, while the Wizard symbolizes the Democratic candidate. The reason there was a debate about using a mixed silver and gold standard, was that the price of gold had gone up leading to a destructive deflation, and the Democrats proposed to use mixed standards to combat this.

[Zep]

And here was I thinking it was all just a kid's story...

[pgwenthold]

Originally posted by Kerberos

According to my economy book the Wizard of Oz is in opposition to the gold standard, since the yellow brick road is perilous. The problems are solved when Dorothy discovers the magic power of her silver slippers, meaning that the author supports a mixed gold and silver standard. Also the Lion is supposed to symbolize the republican presidential candidate, while the Wizard symbolizes the Democratic candidate. The reason there was a debate about using a mixed silver and gold standard, was that the price of gold had gone up leading to a destructive deflation, and the Democrats proposed to use mixed standards to combat this.

While you can use the story to symbolize lots of things, there is absolutely NO reason to think that it was written that way at all. Whether the Lion can symbolize the republican presidential candidate is immaterial to whether he is supposed to.

Any attempts to attribute symbolism to it are mere additions, and are contrary to Baum's stated purpose of the book. From the introduction:

Folklore, legends, myths and fairy tales have followed childhood through the ages, for every healthy youngster has a wholesome and instinctive love for stories fantastic, marvelous and manifestly unreal. The winged fairies of Grimm and Andersen have brought more happiness to childish hearts than all other human creations.

Yet the old time fairy tale, having served for generations, may now be classed as "historical" in the children's library; for the time has come for a series of newer "wonder tales" in which the stereotyped genie, dwarf and fairy are eliminated, together with all the horrible and blood-curdling incidents devised by their authors to point a fearsome moral to each tale. Modern education includes morality; therefore the modern child seeks only entertainment in its wonder tales and gladly dispenses with all disagreeable incident.

Having this thought in mind, the story of "The Wonderful Wizard of Oz" was written solely to please children of today. It aspires to being a modernized fairy tale, in which the wonderment and joy are retained and the heartaches and nightmares are left out.
(emphasis mine)

No one has ever provided any justification for the claim that the WoO is anything other than a story to entertain children by an imaginative writer who needed money. Given the statement by the author in the introduction, I think the burden is on people who think it stands for something to justify it, and just because you can provide some symbolism doesn't mean it was intended or even thought of that way (see my comment above about the symbolism of the solar system in terms of the Bohr model of the atom).

The other thing is that the default position that I provided accounts for Baum's other works, too (of which there are many under many pseudonyms).

The original "Wizard of Oz as a Populist metaphor" by Littlefield was never meant to imply that there was really any meaning in Baum's writing. Littlefield admitted as such. What he said is that _he_ was using it to demonstrate the aspects of Populism in his teaching.

I use a pancake recipe to demonstrate aspects of stoicheometry in a chemistry class. That doesn't mean that pancake recipes are written to demonstrate stoicheometry.

[Kerberos]

Originally posted by pgwenthold


While you can use the story to symbolize lots of things, there is absolutely NO reason to think that it was written that way at all. Whether the Lion can symbolize the republican presidential candidate is immaterial to whether he is supposed to.
You're probably right I only posted it because it had been brough up, and I was somewhat amused to find something like that in a book about economics.