12 year-old NYer arrested for hate-crime

[Thunder]

http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2011/03/31/staten-island-sixth-grader-charged-in-recess-hate-crime/

he tried to grap the scarf off the head of a Muslim classmate.

so now, the 6th-grader has been arrested and charged with a hate crime.

....it now also appears that the kid has a history of violence and bigotry.

perhaps he does belong in the Juvenile Criminal system.

[Last of the Fraggles]

.....is this absolutely **** ing ridiculous or what????????????????



I'm gonna go with 'or what'. If you don't want to be charged with hate crimes the correct approach is not to commit racially-motivated assaults.

An incorrect approach would be to commit racially-motivated assaults and expect people to lighten up about them.

[Bell]

http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2011/03/31/staten-island-sixth-grader-charged-in-recess-hate-crime/

he tried to grap the scarf off the head of a Muslim classmate.

so now, the 6th-grader has been arrested and charged with a hate crime.

in NYC, hate-crime charges bring prison time.



.....is this absolutely **** ing ridiculous or what????????????????

we need to lighten up...and re-learn some common-sense and stop being soo damn hyper-sensitive.

So the boy has already been sent to prison yet :confused:

[thull]

It was a racially motivated move. We base severity of crime on intent.

It's a great teaching moment.

[Xephyr]

Gee, grade 6 students never do such things like that... grabbing a kid's toque in the winter and tossing it around, pulling on a girl's pigtail, knocking a kid's book out of his hand, pulling down another kid's sweatpants in gym class, knocking a kid's baseball cap off his head...

It's just unheard of !

[fuelair]

http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2011/03/31/staten-island-sixth-grader-charged-in-recess-hate-crime/

he tried to grap the scarf off the head of a Muslim classmate.

so now, the 6th-grader has been arrested and charged with a hate crime.

in NYC, hate-crime charges bring prison time.



.....is this absolutely **** ing ridiculous or what????????????????

we need to lighten up...and re-learn some common-sense and stop being soo damn hyper-sensitive.Did you read the entire article? This is kid in need of being stomped down.:mad::jaw-dropp

[fuelair]

Gee, grade 6 students never do such things like that... grabbing a kid's toque in the winter and tossing it around, pulling on a girl's pigtail, knocking a kid's book out of his hand, pulling down another kid's sweatpants in gym class, knocking a kid's baseball cap off his head...

It's just unheard of !(I recognize sarcasm - even on the wrong end.) Yes, this could be normal behavior ABSENT the points made in the article (did you read it??). His behavior is ongoing, it contains clear elements by the bad kid attaching it to her religion, it includes assault specifically aimed at her religious garb, not just her clothes in general. It qualifies as a hate crime easily. And, did you note the last part involving the same little rectum breather chasing a girl around the room trying to cut her hair with scissors. He is clearly a danger and clearly needs to be away from real people. (Not remotely sarccastic). I cut no slack at all for bullies. And based on a few (hope a lot more show up!!!) vids making the rounds, it looks like some victims are doing what needs to be done (not all can and I do not blame them in any way shape or form). It makes me feel great seeing the bullies crying in (preferably) shame and pain as their victims/potential victims explain life to them. Waiting for one or two of them to die on camera in situations where clearly the victim had to defend him/herself. And if anyone in a case like that is charged, I'll do whatever I can for their defense and for getting the prosecutor out of office afterwards.

[Hallo Alfie]

Gee, grade 6 students never do such things like that... grabbing a kid's toque in the winter and tossing it around, pulling on a girl's pigtail, knocking a kid's book out of his hand, pulling down another kid's sweatpants in gym class, knocking a kid's baseball cap off his head...

It's just unheard of !

This ^^^

[Thunder]

hmmmmm............repeat offender.

maybe the arrest was warrented.

but i just don't feel comfortable with a 12 year old being charged with a hate-crime.

they are too young to understand the significance of prejudice, hatred, and its ramifications.

yes, the kid needs perhaps to go to juvee hall. but i still think we need to grow some as a society.

I was harrassed several times in school for being white and for being a Jew.

did I file hate-crime harrassment charges? of course not.

should I have? nope.

[Rufo]

She says he kicked her while she was on the ground.

I don't think anyone is being particularly hypersensitive.

[truethat]

A twelve year old is fully aware of something to this degree. He lives in NYC, ain't no way in heck he doesn't know not to touch her scarf. This is a hate crime.

I find it quite strange that the woman on the airplane you thought was an example of Islamaphobia but you are giving this kid a pass?

He should be charged.

[JamesDillon]

Whatever sympathy I had for the kid before reading the article diminished quickly as it became apparent that this is the latest in a string of assaults and that it was, if the allegations are true, clearly religiously motivated. Having said that, I tend to think that all but the most severe offenses at that age are better dealt with through school discipline than the criminal justice system, and that a better response here might have been suspension or expulsion rather than arrest. Still, he's being tried as a juvenile and his record will be sealed upon turning 18; hopefully he'll learn something from this.

[Captain.Sassy]

Not to detract from the seriousness of what transpired but I do find a bit of levity in the phrase 'scissors rampage'.

[Maurice Ledifficile]

he tried to grap the scarf off the head of a Muslim classmate.

so now, the 6th-grader has been arrested and charged with a hate crime.

in NYC, hate-crime charges bring prison time.



.....is this absolutely **** ing ridiculous or what????????????????

we need to lighten up...and re-learn some common-sense and stop being soo damn hyper-sensitive.

Nice piece of honest reporting, Thunder. There is a world of difference between A) Repeatedly bullying, including taunting and physical violence causing injuries; and B) Trying to "grap" (?) the scarf off someone's head. The OP is extremely misleading and denotes a crass dishonesty. Way to go...

[Thunder]

Nice piece of honest reporting, Thunder. There is a world of difference between A) Repeatedly bullying, including taunting and physical violence causing injuries; and B) Trying to "grap" (?) the scarf off someone's head. The OP is extremely misleading and denotes a crass dishonesty. Way to go...

honestly, i only read the first sentence or two of the article. i thought it was very cut and dry.

i was wrong. sorry.

also, this website has a bad habit putting in little things in the page that makes the story look like its finishd, when the is much more to come.

i am a victim of that.

[Puppycow]

Did you read the entire article? This is kid in need of being stomped down.:mad::jaw-dropp

This.

honestly, i only read the first sentence or two of the article. i thought it was very cut and dry.

i was wrong. sorry.
Saved for posterity.

[Hallo Alfie]

Well done Thunder.

I appreciate your honesty here and hope others do too.

[Thunder]

Well done Thunder.

I appreciate your honesty here and hope others do too.

i read too quick..and didn't look past the little image under the 1st two paragraphs. i thought that was the end of the story.

i was wrong and im sorry.

i wish this website wouldn't do that.

[thull]

Having said that, I tend to think that all but the most severe offenses at that age are better dealt with through school discipline than the criminal justice system, and that a better response here might have been suspension or expulsion rather than arrest.

I agree with the first part completely. The second part I don't think has any effect on actually preventing or discouraging behavior (unless you consider some Ivy league bound student who decides not to pistol whip her teacher, for fear of going to brown instead of yale).

Most behavior issues should be handled in schools; but the schools also aren't going to get paid for the personal/resources etc that it might take to keep kids in school who can't function well with others (hopefully just a phase). So they drop them off to the police/courts and wash the liability off their hands.

[Thunder]

Most behavior issues should be handled in schools; but the schools also aren't going to get paid for the personal/resources etc that it might take to keep kids in school who can't function well with others (hopefully just a phase). So they drop them off to the police/courts and wash the liability off their hands.

that is my big problem.

but now that i see that this story involves repeated assualt and harrassment, perhaps the juvee system is indeed appropriate.

[Maurice Ledifficile]

Well done Thunder.

I appreciate your honesty here and hope others do too.

Seconded.

[fuelair]

I agree with the first part completely. The second part I don't think has any effect on actually preventing or discouraging behavior (unless you consider some Ivy league bound student who decides not to pistol whip her teacher, for fear of going to brown instead of yale).

Most behavior issues should be handled in schools; but the schools also aren't going to get paid for the personal/resources etc that it might take to keep kids in school who can't function well with others (hopefully just a phase). So they drop them off to the police/courts and wash the liability off their hands.

Actually, no they don't - I wish they did so we could get on with the teaching we try to do, but no. Even kids who have felony charges on them are put back into regular classes - and only admin and their specific teachers (officially) know who they are. BTW and with no offense, not wanting to sit next to anyone else or not joining in class discussion is can't function well with others. Hitting, kicking other people, threatening others with objects/hitting with objects, pulling off/down/up others clothes are not "can't function well with others", they are assault and battery. Felony. Not school, police!!:mad::mad::mad:

[thull]

Actually, no they don't - I wish they did so we could get on with the teaching we try to do, but no. Even kids who have felony charges on them are put back into regular classes - and only admin and their specific teachers (officially) know who they are. BTW and with no offense, not wanting to sit next to anyone else or not joining in class discussion is can't function well with others. Hitting, kicking other people, threatening others with objects/hitting with objects, pulling off/down/up others clothes are not "can't function well with others", they are assault and battery. Felony. Not school, police!!:mad::mad::mad:

Really?

The story listed multiple incidents the student did before police were called. Many behavior issues start small and escalate. I was making the point that schools don't really have an effective intermediate stage where troubled students are identified and dealt with.

Liability is washed from the school's hands when things finally escalate to the stage where it is a crime even if the student ends up right back in school a few days later. The school is on record for taking action and even further it was out of their hands so they can't be blamed if it wasn't handled with the care or severity it required.

I think I even agree with you on all points... though I do apologize for being brief in my other reply and glossing over some more important points. For instance: I wasn't referencing the story's example and I was addressing what I thought was the underlying problem people have with these stories. The idea that something should/could have been done prevent things from getting to this point.

[fuelair]

Really?

The story listed multiple incidents the student did before police were called. Many behavior issues start small and escalate. I was making the point that schools don't really have an effective intermediate stage where troubled students are identified and dealt with.

Liability is washed from the school's hands when things finally escalate to the stage where it is a crime even if the student ends up right back in school a few days later. The school is on record for taking action and even further it was out of their hands so they can't be blamed if it wasn't handled with the care or severity it required.

I think I even agree with you on all points... though I do apologize for being brief in my other reply and glossing over some more important points. For instance: I wasn't referencing the story's example and I was addressing what I thought was the underlying problem people have with these stories. The idea that something should/could have been done prevent things from getting to this point.

The schools do have some things: SAFE programs and related (depends on the school/system) and stepped discipline - but that is only appropriate for certain levels of offense - true assault (physical or sexual) gets the police first time every time here (at least officially, and definitely at my school) (a high school).

[Ray Brady]

i am a victim of that.

You are correct to claim victim status, and should sue the website for insensitivity to the impatient.

[DallasDad]

The article linked in the OP says the boy's father claims the boy is Muslim, too. How does that affect the hate-criminess* of the action? I thought a hate-crime had to be directed against a member of a class primarily because the victim was a member of the class, not for other primary reasons. If it's just hatred of a particular person, or general bullying, it's intolerable, but not a hate-crime ... yes?


* Neologisms are good for the soul.

[sgtbaker]

Not to detract from the seriousness of what transpired but I do find a bit of levity in the phrase 'scissors rampage'.

I am very much with you, on that one. I am not saying that they should ignore the bullying/harassment issue, that should be dealt with and if the law says it's a hate crime, charge him with such. I would be a little frightened if my 6th grader came home and told me there was a classmate chasing another classmate with scissors, attempting to cut her hair. The kids sounds like he is a danger to himself and others. Perhaps he shouldn't be in mainstream school to begin with.

[fuelair]

I am very much with you, on that one. I am not saying that they should ignore the bullying/harassment issue, that should be dealt with and if the law says it's a hate crime, charge him with such. I would be a little frightened if my 6th grader came home and told me there was a classmate chasing another classmate with scissors, attempting to cut her hair. The kids sounds like he is a danger to himself and others. Perhaps he shouldn't be in mainstream school to begin with.The law does indeed allow for this- flexibility is minimal. This is one of the areas where I am not a fan of the laws to protect the rights of the disabled. I believe those rights should not extend to protecting them in situations where they may - and try to - harm others (on the "your right to swing your arms around ends at the tip of my nose" legal theory [yes, I realize that means assault without battery would have to be legal and it isn't, but I didn't make up the example - a judge did!:)].

[Skeptic]

This is a hate crime (as opposed to a kid just grabbing another kid's scarf). The question is, should a 12-year-old be charged for such a crime. Age is usually a mitigating factor, at least such a young age.

[Puppycow]

This is a hate crime (as opposed to a kid just grabbing another kid's scarf). The question is, should a 12-year-old be charged for such a crime. Age is usually a mitigating factor, at least such a young age.

He's being charged as a juvenile, not an adult, so his age is being considered.

[Puppycow]

Something I missed on the first time I read it:

The boy’s father says his son is also a Muslim.

Is it still a hate crime if the boy is a Muslim too?

[TheAnachronism]

Something I missed on the first time I read it:

The boy’s father says his son is also a Muslim.

Is it still a hate crime if the boy is a Muslim too?

Perhaps I'm just being cynical, but I'd imagine many people facing the possibility of being charged with a hate crime would falsely claim to belong to the same group as the victim. I can just hear them petulantly saying, "yeah, well PROVE I'm not a Muslim!"

My (non-profession) assumption is that as long as a person is victimized because he or she belongs to group X, it is a hate crime, regardless of whether or not the perpetrator also belongs to group X. This way, intent need only be established.

(I can easily picture a scenario in which a Muslim student in a non-practicing family might target another Muslim student with a differing religious practice, such as the wearing of head scarves.)

[lionking]

Thunder, I recall you arguing through a whole thread that you don't have laws against hate crime in the US.:rolleyes:

[NobbyNobbs]

they are too young to understand the significance of prejudice, hatred, and its ramifications.


Um... seriously? Don't know that many 12 year olds, do you?

[Last of the Fraggles]

Something I missed on the first time I read it:



Is it still a hate crime if the boy is a Muslim too?

I believe the definition of hate crime only considers the motivation for the crime not the offender's status.

From the article, it is clearly suggested that the crimes had a racially-motivated element to them and would therefore fit the description.

[Tsukasa Buddha]

Um... seriously? Don't know that many 12 year olds, do you?

Silly, everyone under 18 is a child of naive, innocent wonder and splendor.

[Noztradamus]

(I can easily picture a scenario in which a Muslim student in a non-practicing family might target another Muslim student with a differing religious practice, such as the wearing of head scarves.)

Indulge yourself. Imagine a scenaeio where a fundamentalist muslim kid targets another Muslim student seen as less devout. (exposed hair, not a "proper" hijab)

[commandlinegamer]

honestly, i only read the first sentence or two of the article.

You thought you were on Slashdot?

[JamesDillon]

I believe the definition of hate crime only considers the motivation for the crime not the offender's status.

New York Penal Law Section 485.05, in relevant part:

1. A person commits a hate crime when he or she commits a specified offense and either:

(a) intentionally selects the person against whom the offense is committed or intended to be committed in whole or in
substantial part because of a belief or perception regarding the race, color, national origin, ancestry, gender, religion, religious
practice, age, disability or sexual orientation of a person, regardless of whether the belief or perception is correct,
or

(b) intentionally commits the act or acts constituting the offense in whole or in substantial part because of a belief or perception
regarding the race, color, national origin, ancestry, gender, religion, religious practice, age, disability or sexual
orientation of a person, regardless of whether the belief or perception is correct.

"Specified offenses" include, among others, assault in the first, second, or third degree, one of which I assume he's been charged with. The religion, etc., of the defendant is not relevant to the hate crime offense.

[sgtbaker]

The law does indeed allow for this- flexibility is minimal. This is one of the areas where I am not a fan of the laws to protect the rights of the disabled. I believe those rights should not extend to protecting them in situations where they may - and try to - harm others (on the "your right to swing your arms around ends at the tip of my nose" legal theory [yes, I realize that means assault without battery would have to be legal and it isn't, but I didn't make up the example - a judge did!:)].

I am not looking to protect the aggressive child from his due consequences. I am just wondering what it actually takes to expell a child who poses such a threat to his classmates. The kid sounds like he has some serious impulse control issues.

[Thunder]

Thunder, I recall you arguing through a whole thread that you don't have laws against hate crime in the US.:rolleyes:

untrue.

false.

baseless claim.

[blutoski]

Something I missed on the first time I read it:



Is it still a hate crime if the boy is a Muslim too?

We'd need more information. A Muslim childhood friend of mine was often beaten up by other Muslim kids... my friend was Ismaili and they were Sunni.

An analogy is claiming that a Catholic beating up an Amish man for being Amish can't be a hatecrime "because they're both Christian".

[Xephyr]

Hate crime is hate crime, aka "bullying" when it's in a schoolyard.

Whether it be against a kid with a different coloured skin, or a different religion, or has a big nose, or is taller than the other kids, or wears glasses, or wears cheap shoes, or is fatter than the other kids, or has too many freckles, etc etc

Are we going to start arresting and charging every kid in the 6th grade who commits such hate-filled felonies ? Half the kids would be rotting behind bars for crying out loud.

Or are we going to teach our kids tolerance and empathy for others, and apply appropriate punishment to those kids that need it (keeping in mind that the parents also should be questioned on their child's hate-filled behaviour) ?

Does this kid have some serious issues that need to be dealt with ?

You're damn right he does.

But just because someone screams "discrimination" does not necessarily make it so... this could very well be a case of media mob mentality against a kid who has serious behavioural problems and is in dire need of getting to the bottom of where his violent behaviour is coming from. If it weren't this muslim girl, it would have been some other "different" kid he would have made his target.

Let's get real here.

Perhaps he's been a victim of "muslim hate crime" himself, or reads about all the muslim hate in the newspapers and on tv, and felt that if he were to target another muslim kid then his peers would be more accepting of him and leave him alone... That's a common theme with kids in school and why they act out the way they do. None of us really knows what's going on in this kid's head, he obviously has a lot of built up anger going on for some reason.

Is this justifiably a class E felony ?
I'm not sure I'm in agreement with that decision.

[Thunder]

Thunder, I recall you arguing through a whole thread that you don't have laws against hate crime in the US.:rolleyes:

still waiting for you to back up this baseless claim.

[lionking]

untrue.

false.

baseless claim.

You didn't say this then?




hmmm...sounds like criminalizing stupidity. I'm glad I live in a free country that doesn't criminalize stupidity and stupid thought/speech.

[Thunder]

You didn't say this then?


#1. an actual linked quote would be nice.

#2. I NEVER said that the USA has no hate-crime laws.

please retract that claim or I shall call it what it is: a lie.

[lionking]

You seriously think people will believe this? The thread you posted in was specifically about hate crime laws and the jailing of a bigot for breaching Australia's racial and religious vilification laws. Your post was directly related to this case. Your post can be interpreted in only one way. Squirm away.

[Thunder]

You seriously think people will believe this? The thread you posted in was specifically about hate crime laws and the jailing of a bigot for breaching Australia's racial and religious vilification laws. Your post was directly related to this case. Your post can be interpreted in only one way. Squirm away.

ok then. so you knowingly LIED about my posts and opinions.

FYI- I have the New York State Penal Code book in my library. In it are hate-crime laws.

if I ever denied that the USA has hate-crime laws, I was referring to HATE SPEECH. but you clearly understand this, and this is why you have chosen to NOT post any links.



nice job.....liar.

[Miss_Kitt]

Have not read this entire thread, but even if the boy is Muslim that does not mean that it's not a 'hate crime'. For example, if he is a Shia and attacks Sunni kids...it's still an attack motivated by the victim's religious / cultural beliefs.

As to 12-year-olds not being intellectually competent to commit hate crimes, it depends totally on the kid. My little girl is just starting to have enough "nous" to have that kind of concept at 11-1/2; but the neighbor boy was tuned in to groups like religious, racial, social divisions when he was 8 or 9. Much depends on what the child is exposed to, or is interested in and aware of.

BG has her face stuck in a book, or is watching Mythbusters, or on the ice (skating) with most of her time. She also attends a smallish Montessori school, which emphasizes individuals and not groups. I know by her age I had pretty strong political and religious beliefs, but she so far seems not to. How much of that is just her, and how much how we raised her, I don't know.

And, Thunder, congratulations on being man enough to say "I'm in the wrong." We don't see enough of that, in here or in the outside world. Thank you.

[Skeptic]

I never understood the point of "hate crime" legistlation. It is already illegal to assault or murder or rape anybody, whatever one's motives. If you can show racial hatred you will find it much easier to gain a convction since you have established a motive and done away with, for example, the justification of self-defense. So why, exactly, is there a need for seperate "hate crime" legistlation?

[marksman]

Is it still a hate crime if the boy is a Muslim too?

Sure. I think if a fundamentalist Protestant beats on a Catholic for being a "dirty papist", it's a hate crime, even though they are both Christian.

The boy tore at the girl's religious headscarf and called her a terrorist. Sounds like he may (that's up tot the court system) have a problem with overtly religious Muslims.

[Cayvmann]

i read too quick..and didn't look past the little image under the 1st two paragraphs. i thought that was the end of the story.

i was wrong and im sorry.

i wish this website wouldn't do that.

I would like to point this out. A person can actually admit they were wrong, and move on.

[Thunder]

I never understood the point of "hate crime" legistlation. It is already illegal to assault or murder or rape anybody, whatever one's motives.

motivation is already factored into charges and penalty for assault, murder, etc. no reason not to add prejudice to this.