Force, Energy & Matter--few questions?

[Zep]

Kumar, this is deplorable, I looked for the first three pages of your linkm they all say 'insulin' and 'resistance'

If you wish to be taken seriously, how about linking to the actual page where it says down regulation?

Is that too much to ask?

ETA: I think in fact Kumar that you did not read any of your own link, here is an easier one
http://books.google.co.in/books?id=ohgjG0qAvfgC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Joslin's+diabetes+mellitus&hl=en&ei=dRCvTZbwGqqO0QGcvsG9Cw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CDMQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22down%20regulation%22&f=false

None of what they mention is about receptor down regulation, so either you are deluded or not reading your own ciatation.Now you're getting it. And these are not mutually exclusive.

[Zep]

Sad decision on your part. You can ignore me but not the nature's balancing actions.Said like a true believer. Pity it isn't true though.

[Kumar]

There's no such thing.


As I noted before, this is why you are always wrong and will always be wrong. You have chosen to believe something that is untrue, and you are looking only for excuses to continue believing it. This is blatantly dishonest, and you are wasting your time and the time of everyone in this thread.

Go to the library. Get a science book for 12-year-olds. Read it. Ask questions about it.

Or don't, and wallow in wilful ignorance for the rest of your life.

Ok. These are you canculation with non A&F basis. I do consider mass existings so the God. And as God is said to omniscience & omnipresent, I can base on things on such omniscience present in me. It is quaite logical. Unless any aspect is fully clear & absolote to me, I keep on keeping my eye open.

[Kumar]

Well, it depends on your meaning of identical Kumar and how deeply you wish to compare things. Most people know that a water molecule is made up of two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom to get H2O. Here's the Wikipedia entry for H2O that shows the structure of the molecule.

Would two water molecules be identical if one set of neutrons were on top of the protons in the nuclei of one of the oxygen atoms, while the other oxygen nuclei had the protons on top of the neutrons in the other?

If you're just looking at the chemical structure/formula of water, then you could say yes. If you look at the nuclei of the oxygen atoms, then you would say no.

Many things are coming out from topic "Can two things identical". Go on reading.

[PixyMisa]

Ok. These are you canculation with non A&F basis.
This is reality, Kumary.

I do consider mass existings so the God.
Evidence?

And as God is said to omniscience & omnipresent
Don't care what's said. Where's he evidence?

I can base on things on such omniscience present in me.
Not without evidence.

It is quaite logical.
It's not logical, it's foolish and dishonest, and actively harmful.

Unless any aspect is fully clear & absolote to me, I keep on keeping my eye open.
You have never had even one eye open, Kumar.

[Mojo]

It should be possible that there is a resistance to use/break down of energy stores esp. those stores which are meant for emergency/more need---glucogen, fats etc., due to excessesive & continual exposure of insulin(ref. previous quotes). Hence body mechanism try to compensate it for survuval either by maintaining higher blood glucose(by more food intake or from liver) and viceral fats(VATs(can be used quickly that SATs as having better blood vessels).


No. The hyperinsulaemia that leads to IR is caused by persistently elevated blood glucose levels. Even the quotation you posted above says this.

[Kumar]

No. The hyperinsulaemia that leads to IR is caused by persistently elevated blood glucose levels. Even the quotation you posted above says this.

Obiously, Blood glucose level is one of the several stimuli to insulin secretion. But exogenous insulin may add to it.


Mechanism of action
Metformin improves hyperglycemia primarily through its suppression of hepatic glucose production (hepatic gluconeogenesis).[64] The "average" person with type 2 diabetes has three times the normal rate of gluconeogenesis; metformin treatment reduces this by over one third.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metformin

The question here is; Why average type2 diabetic ,has three time of heptic glucose production?

[Kumar]

This is reality, Kumary.


Evidence?


Don't care what's said. Where's he evidence?


Not without evidence.


It's not logical, it's foolish and dishonest, and actively harmful.


You have never had even one eye open, Kumar.

Sorry, I can't produce A&F evidance because science is not yet like that. Further unless any evidance is A&F, I hesitate to consider that as an real evidance. Is it not justified?

[Pixel42]

Sorry, I can't produce A&F evidance because science is not yet like that.
Science will never be like that. Anyone who thinks it is or ever will be has failed to understand it at the most fundamental level.

But the fact that scientists will never know everything is not an excuse for ignoring what they do know. And one of the things they do know beyond all reasonable doubt is that homeopathy is nonsense.

[Kumar]

Science will never be like that. Anyone who thinks it is or ever will be has failed to understand it at the most fundamental level.

But the fact that scientists will never know everything is not an excuse for ignoring what they do know. And one of the things they do know beyond all reasonable doubt is that homeopathy is nonsense.

They do not people at mass do. If we read carefully "can two things be identical:" in this forum, we can see many possibilities in futher understandings. If two things humans are not identical, how can we prescribe same or similar medicine to two or more people? Hence individuality & constitutional consideration in homeopathy & other alt. systems hold some validity.

Still I don't say that somethings can't give same results to many or most.;)

[Pixel42]

They do not people at mass do. If we read carefully "can two things be identical:" in this forum, we can see many possibilities in futher understandings. If two things humans are not identical, how can we prescribe same or similar medicine to two or more people? Hence individuality & constitutional consideration in homeopathy & other alt. systems hold some validity.

Still I don't say that somethings can't give same results to many or most.;)
Sorry, I don't speak gibberish.

[Mashuna]

They do not people at mass do. If we read carefully "can two things be identical:" in this forum, we can see many possibilities in futher understandings. If two things humans are not identical, how can we prescribe same or similar medicine to two or more people? Hence individuality & constitutional consideration in homeopathy & other alt. systems hold some validity.

Still I don't say that somethings can't give same results to many or most.;)

No, homoeopathy still has no validity. Your logic is unsound. Or, to put it another way, your understanding is M&W.

[Mojo]

Obiously, Blood glucose level is one of the several stimuli to insulin secretion. But exogenous insulin may add to it.


Type 2 diabetics are not given exogenous insulin until AFTER they have developed insulin resistance. Therefore it cannot be the cause.

[Kumar]

No, homoeopathy still has no validity. Your logic is unsound. Or, to put it another way, your understanding is M&W.

Look like so under CURRENT status of science.:)

[Kumar]

Type 2 diabetics are not given exogenous insulin until AFTER they have developed insulin resistance. Therefore it cannot be the cause.

If downregulation theory is justified, more the insulin more can be the IR in type2. Let us say 1000 mouths on each cell. Say for example, 500 inactivated prior to exo...and 500++ after it.

[Kumar]

Sorry, I don't speak gibberish.

Then, pls speak something good.

[Pixel42]

Look like so under CURRENT status of science.
The current status of science is more than good enough to determine which medical treatments work and which don't, and has been for several decades. That's why we know for certain that homeopathy is one of those which don't work.

Then, pls speak something good.
You first.

[Dancing David]

For many yet unclear understandings due to M&W, ideas/ethics are there, may not be strict evidances as required, here. Two aspects about IR, look quite possible, since all or most actions of body's mechanisms should be for some survival benefit in nett :-
....
True reason to getting diabetes2 should be some inharent or acquired disposition to take food in excess, irregulariry & occasionally which can creat a vicious cycle.

Excuse me Kumar, why don't you admit that your google book citation was wrong and then provide the actual medical research.

The issue is your use of the word receptor, which if you did some reading, you would understand.

[Dancing David]

I could easily open this link. It is under "Acquired Forms of Insulin Resistance on page 157.

And where does it mention the down regulation of receptors. last chance before I walk away. here is ahint, you did not read your own source.

Cite the specific use concerning down regulation of receptors or admit you did not read it.

[Kumar]

http://diabetes.diabetesjournals.org/content/38/2/182.abstract

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6401923

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9609124

[Kumar]

And where does it mention the down regulation of receptors. last chance before I walk away. here is ahint, you did not read your own source.

Cite the specific use concerning down regulation of receptors or admit you did not read it.

Sorry I don't know why you can't read that link.
http://diabetes.diabetesjournals.org/content/28/4/287.short

[Dancing David]

http://diabetes.diabetesjournals.org/content/38/2/182.abstract

1989?
Not within even ten years, much less three.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6401923

Can you read? Where does it demonstrate receptor down regulation?

1983, not even with ten years, much less three.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9609124
1998 not with in ten years, much less three.
Can you read?
"Thus, the circulating level of glucose may independently regulate insulin stimulated glucose transport in skeletal muscle from NIDDM patients via a down regulation of the insulin signaling cascade."

Not receptors, but interaction of a system.

So now what will we find if we look at citations for those artciles Kumar, do you admit that that Joslin's book does not say what you said yet?

[Dancing David]

Sorry I don't know why you can't read that link.
http://diabetes.diabetesjournals.org/content/28/4/287.short

I did and a researched just the term down regulation,

Why can't you actually cite the sentece that supports insulin receptor down regulation

I read your link and I did not see it, Why can't you actually cite the sentece that supports insulin receptor down regulation

Educate me, show me what the sentence is that you say exists, the down regulation of insulin receptors. I will even admit my error here and in teh Community Forum.

[Kumar]

1989?
Not within even ten years, much less three.

Can you read? Where does it demonstrate receptor down regulation?

1983, not even with ten years, much less three.

1998 not with in ten years, much less three.
Can you read?
"Thus, the circulating level of glucose may independently regulate insulin stimulated glucose transport in skeletal muscle from NIDDM patients via a down regulation of the insulin signaling cascade."

Not receptors, but interaction of a system.

So now what will we find if we look at citations for those artciles Kumar, do you admit that that Joslin's book does not say what you said yet?

Yes I read it and in one last post, Mojo had also indicated that it is glucose toxicity not of insulin which can be the reason of getting IR. It made me to rethink on it. Since, insulin & glucose can be dependant on each other, it may be difficult to measure the direct culprit. Following factors can be thought in this respect:-

1. Downregulation in case of other harmones is dependant on excess of harmone not on its stimulating thing.
2. Type1 diabetics are usually don't present IR case.Though their BG levels can still be higher.

3. Insulin's other actions than glucose uptake are also seems to be over-expressed in type2.

4. Harmone dependant downregulation is also indicated on few sites--absolute or not. It also looks to be bit logical.

5. Others??

Still I shall try to re-evalute it that it is gluco-toxicity not of insulin toxicity which can cause IR.

[Kumar]

I did and a researched just the term down regulation,

Why can't you actually cite the sentece that supports insulin receptor down regulation

I read your link and I did not see it, Why can't you actually cite the sentece that supports insulin receptor down regulation

Educate me, show me what the sentence is that you say exists, the down regulation of insulin receptors. I will even admit my error here and in teh Community Forum.

I am not able to copy & paste. I shall type later.

[Zep]

Look like so under CURRENT status of science.:)I was PROVEN so under the status of science in Hahnemann's time. That was over 200 years ago. So it's been 200 years, and STILL no evidence homeopathy works. That's zero evidence. Nothing. If you like, it's mass finding since long. It's also A&F.

So when do you think you will accept this?

[Kumar]

1989?
Not within even ten years, much less three.

Can you read? Where does it demonstrate receptor down regulation?

1983, not even with ten years, much less three.

1998 not with in ten years, much less three.
Can you read?
"Thus, the circulating level of glucose may independently regulate insulin stimulated glucose transport in skeletal muscle from NIDDM patients via a down regulation of the insulin signaling cascade."

Not receptors, but interaction of a system.

So now what will we find if we look at citations for those artciles Kumar, do you admit that that Joslin's book does not say what you said yet?

Glucotoxicity and beta-cell failure in type 2 diabetes mellitus.
Kaiser N, Leibowitz G, Nesher R.
SourceEndocrinology and Metabolism Service, Department of Medicine and The Hadassah Diabetes Center, Hebrew University-Hadassah Medical Center, Jerusalem, Israel. kaiser@md.huji.ac.il

Abstract
Type 2 diabetes mellitus is increasing worldwide with a trend of declining age of onset. It is characterized by insulin resistance and a progressive loss of beta-cell function. The ability to secrete adequate amounts of insulin is determined by the functional integrity of beta-cells and their overall mass. Glucose, the main regulator of insulin secretion and production, exerts negative effects on beta-cell function when present in excessive amounts over a prolonged period. The multiple metabolic aberrations induced by chronic hyperglycemia in the beta-cell include increased sensitivity to glucose, increased basal insulin release, reduced response to stimulus to secrete insulin, and a gradual depletion of insulin stores. Inadequate insulin production during chronic hyperglycemia results from decreased insulin gene transcription due to hyperglycemia-induced changes in the activity of beta-cell specific transcription factors. Hyperglycemia may negatively affect beta-cell mass by inducing apoptosis without a compensatory increase in beta-cell proliferation and neogenesis. The detrimental effect of excessive glucose concentrations is referred to as 'glucotoxicity'. The present review discusses the role of glucotoxicity in beta-cell dysfunction in type 2 diabetes mellitus.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12585335

Although following quote somewhat express progression of diabetes type2, but bolded letter can be important consideration. Such damge can be in prolonged time. It first increase insulin secrate but detrioriate after long term hyperglycemia(beta cell damage). As such we can try understanding it in two stages--one, when beta cells are intact, Two, when not. Later it can also me noted that Insulin's effect become more apperant on later stages, IDDM & in type1.

5.Glucose being not so odd molecule--as its excess exposure can't produce fatal impact immediately, appear to be bit odd for triggering IR directly. Whereas small excess of insulin can bring fatal effect immediately due to severe hypoglycemia. Hence it can be think logically that body's defence mechanism should be most concered to insulin's excess action than to excess of glucose.

[Zep]

Kumar, you have demonstrated clearly you absolutely no understanding of what you quoted. You really haven't.

There is no mention in the quote you provided of how regular insulin injections affect Type 2 diabetes. It is a paper describing in some detail how Type 2 diabetes progresses without treatment of any sort.

Stop trying to pretend you understand this stuff. It is a fantasy - you are only fooling yourself.

[Dancing David]

Yes I read it and in one last post, Mojo had also indicated that it is glucose toxicity not of insulin which can be the reason of getting IR. It made me to rethink on it. Since, insulin & glucose can be dependant on each other, it may be difficult to measure the direct culprit. Following factors can be thought in this respect:-

1. Downregulation in case of other harmones is dependant on excess of harmone not on its stimulating thing.
2. Type1 diabetics are usually don't present IR case.Though their BG levels can still be higher.

3. Insulin's other actions than glucose uptake are also seems to be over-expressed in type2.

Maybe you should try reading some real medical research, it still usually involves glucose metabolism and transport.


4. Harmone dependant downregulation is also indicated on few sites--absolute or not. It also looks to be bit logical.

Sure, whatever. You are wrong.


5. Others??

Still I shall try to re-evalute it that it is gluco-toxicity not of insulin toxicity which can cause IR.

You are using too simple a model which is you skimmed that reasearch papers on insulin resistance on PubMed, you would know. Multivariate paths of metabolism involving multiple organs and systems.

You are trying to make the simple out of very complex.

[Dancing David]

Although following quote somewhat express progression of diabetes type2, but bolded letter can be important consideration. Such damge can be in prolonged time. It first increase insulin secrate but detrioriate after long term hyperglycemia(beta cell damage). As such we can try understanding it in two stages--one, when beta cells are intact, Two, when not. Later it can also me noted that Insulin's effect become more apperant on later stages, IDDM & in type1.

5.Glucose being not so odd molecule--as its excess exposure can't produce fatal impact immediately, appear to be bit odd for triggering IR directly. Whereas small excess of insulin can bring fatal effect immediately due to severe hypoglycemia. Hence it can be think logically that body's defence mechanism should be most concered to insulin's excess action than to excess of glucose.

Funny, none of that is about insulin receptors, now is it. Nor is it about your new magical phrase.

You are still trying to smash the cat into a box.

I see you cut and pasted. Where is teh down regulation quote from Joslin's book?

Do you admit you were wrong or not?

[Kumar]

Maybe you should try reading some real medical research, it still usually involves glucose metabolism and transport.

Sure, whatever. You are wrong.


You are using too simple a model which is you skimmed that reasearch papers on insulin resistance on PubMed, you would know. Multivariate paths of metabolism involving multiple organs and systems.

You are trying to make the simple out of very complex.

I may be trying one path. I think, IR couldn't yet be fully understood.

[Kumar]

Funny, none of that is about insulin receptors, now is it. Nor is it about your new magical phrase.

You are still trying to smash the cat into a box.

I see you cut and pasted. Where is teh down regulation quote from Joslin's book?

Do you admit you were wrong or not?

I am surprised you could not able to real Joslin's book. I give the link again;

http://books.google.co.in/books?id=ohgjG0qAvfgC&pg=PA157&lpg=PA157&dq=down+regulation+insulin+resistance&source=vrt&ots=yIzm4FO5Fy&sig=4bydjaRvvT6sNBUmvBXM5WL85Q4&hl=en&ei=PVCuTaeDOo7prQfg-5SGCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=12&ved=0CHEQ6AEwCw#v=onepage&q=down%20regulation%20insulin%20resistance&f=false

Page 157
"Acquired forms of insulin resistance
Acquired forms of insulin resistance may occur as a result of multiple mechanisms(Fig 9.6).The first of these is to be described was that of insulin receptor- downregulation...."

[Dancing David]

I may be trying one path. I think, IR couldn't yet be fully understood.

Except you aren't using anything other than your personal desire and imagination.

[Dancing David]

I am surprised you could not able to real Joslin's book. I give the link again;

http://books.google.co.in/books?id=ohgjG0qAvfgC&pg=PA157&lpg=PA157&dq=down+regulation+insulin+resistance&source=vrt&ots=yIzm4FO5Fy&sig=4bydjaRvvT6sNBUmvBXM5WL85Q4&hl=en&ei=PVCuTaeDOo7prQfg-5SGCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=12&ved=0CHEQ6AEwCw#v=onepage&q=down%20regulation%20insulin%20resistance&f=false

Page 157
"Acquired forms of insulin resistance
Acquired forms of insulin resistance may occur as a result of multiple mechanisms(Fig 9.6).The first of these is to be described was that of insulin receptor- downregulation...."

Thank you, did not see, it I read it many time, so I apologise. Now how much of modern research looks at that?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/4359334

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/218432

Those are the two studies which are the basis of your claim.

here are the citations:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?db=pubmed&cmd=link&linkname=pubmed_pubmed_citedin&uid=4359334

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?db=pubmed&cmd=link&linkname=pubmed_pubmed_citedin&uid=218432

Now I am off to profer my apology in Community and read these citations, guess what the first ones show, no mention of receptor down regulation!

[PixyMisa]

Look like so under CURRENT status of science.:)
Once again, this is simply dishonest.

Homeopathy does not work. You know this, you are just looking for excuses.

Homeopathy is impossible. You know this, you are just looking for excuses.

As long as you persist with that attitude, you will never learn anything.

[Kumar]

Thank you, did not see, it I read it many time, so I apologise. Now how much of modern research looks at that?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/4359334

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/218432

Those are the two studies which are the basis of your claim.

here are the citations:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?db=pubmed&cmd=link&linkname=pubmed_pubmed_citedin&uid=4359334

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?db=pubmed&cmd=link&linkname=pubmed_pubmed_citedin&uid=218432

Now I am off to profer my apology in Community and read these citations, guess what the first ones show, no mention of receptor down regulation!

Thanks for links. I could also find one interesting link from your link:-

Diseases affecting the insulin receptor can be divided into 5 categories: 1) receptor regulation, including diseases characterized by hyper or hypoinsulinemia; 2) antireceptor antibodies that bind to the receptor and competitively inhibit binding; 3) genetic diseases that produce fixed alterations in both freshly isolated and cultured cells; 4) diseases of receptor specificity where insulin may bind with different affinity to its own receptor or related receptors; and 5) diseases of affinity modulation, where physical factors such as pH, temperature and ions modify binding.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6342876

However, I suspect that in recent time, say when commercialization increased, Downregulation theory is either become obsleter or supressed. Obiously if this theory in applicable, all diabetic medication programme can be changed--so the big loss.

[Dancing David]

Goodby Kumar, science moves on and you blame commercialization, your blatant agenda is boring. All the research you like and don't like comes after the comercialization of medications of the insulin variety. But Actose shoots your theory away, actually understand what is happening outside your head would help.

next up " Alchemists who feel Underfunded", have fun living in your world

[Kumar]

Goodby Kumar, science moves on and you blame commercialization, your blatant agenda is boring. All the research you like and don't like comes after the comercialization of medications of the insulin variety. But Actose shoots your theory away, actually understand what is happening outside your head would help.

next up " Alchemists who feel Underfunded", have fun living in your world

Thanks. Truth is simple--bitter or sweat.

[Kumar]

Once again, this is simply dishonest.

Homeopathy does not work. You know this, you are just looking for excuses.

Homeopathy is impossible. You know this, you are just looking for excuses.

As long as you persist with that attitude, you will never learn anything.

Ok, you are absulute judge, here.

[Zep]

Just remember folks: Kumar doesn't understand his own words. So he certainly won't understand his own references, nor anything you may respond with seriously.

[PixyMisa]

Ok, you are absulute judge, here.
You have been posting the same things for years, Kumar. It doesn't require an absolute judge, just a functional memory - or a quick bit of searching.

[Kumar]

You have been posting the same things for years, Kumar. It doesn't require an absolute judge, just a functional memory - or a quick bit of searching.

Ok.