I'm part Mexican!

[Mycroft]

A few weeks back I'm at this public building with a little extra time, and there is this pretty young woman there, and out of politeness and because we're sharing the same space for the moment, we exchange a few banal words. I ask her if she's a student because we're not far from a college, she's got books with her and she's about the right age. It turns out she is. That follows by asking what she's studying. That's where I get the racist rant.

It turns out her ambition is to learn human resources and then either join the army or Homeland Security. I didn't learn what the lure of the Army was, but she proudly stated she wanted to join Homeland Security because she has some "strong opinions about immigration."

She's against it. All of it. Some of them want to come over here and be terrorists, and others just want to come here illegally and take advantage of our social services. Those are the worst, she says, the Mexicans. She knows about the Mexicans first hand because last year when she almost lost her apartment and she needed help, she went down to the social services office, but they wouldn't help her. She believed they would have helped her if her skin were a different colour, (darker) but since it wasn't and she didn't have a baby, (and why should she be punished for making the right decision?!) but they helped all the Mexicans who were there.

About then she noticed the stare I was giving her wasn't the normal encouraging stare one usually gives a pretty woman. Maybe she has a clue as to how awful she sounds, because she adds, "Oh it's okay. I can talk **** about Mexicans if I want to. I'm part Mexican myself" I didn't ask her which part, but I certainly wanted to. There wasn't anything about her that suggested Mexican or any kind of Spanish, but if she says it I'll accept it as true. It didn't occur to me later to ask her why she didn't bring it up at the social services office if she really believed they would only help minorities.

then she went on to tell a story of how back in High School there was a Mexican girl that wanted to fight her because she had been talking **** about Mexicans. She got right up in that Mexican girl's face and told her she was part Mexican too and can say what she wants, and then she would have fought that girl, but the SRO officer was right there and she couldn't do that. She sure did want to, though.

So I leave, hoping she never makes it into the Army, Homeland Security or any aspect of Human Resources. Part of me is wondering if she was pulling my leg because it's just not very often anymore that you hear people express their bigotry so openly. How bizarre it was that she really seemed to think that claiming kinship with Mexicans somehow made anti-Mexican bigotry acceptable.

To properly mask profanity.

[pipelineaudio]

Its crazy, like how so many black people run around saying ****** this and ****** that, and then tell you how theyre allowed but you arent

[Redtail]

Its crazy, like how so many black people run around saying ****** this and ****** that, and then tell you how theyre allowed but you arent
Like how so many people who identify with a group will?

[JadeStonesFromSaturn]

All sounds extremely typical in the area I live (Southern California). Not a day goes by until I run into some white (or black) person who endlessly bitches about the "Mexicans". Seems she's hit all the cliches, "terrorists", "criminals", "coming to abuse our social services", "I was denied X form of assistance because I'm white!" It becomes comical after you hear it so often...

[Tsukasa Buddha]

Heh, I work at a welfare office and White people seem to play the race card more than anyone else. I still don't understand the illogic behind that.

[Skeptic]

It didn't occur to me later to ask her why she didn't bring it up at the social services office if she really believed they would only help minorities.

You're asking for logic from a racist.

So I leave, hoping she never makes it into the Army, Homeland Security or any aspect of Human Resources. Part of me is wondering if she was pulling my leg because it's just not very often anymore that you hear people express their bigotry so openly. How bizarre it was that she really seemed to think that claiming kinship with Mexicans somehow made anti-Mexican bigotry acceptable.

"Some of my best friends are..."

[slingblade]

Its crazy, like how so many black people run around saying ****** this and ****** that, and then tell you how theyre allowed but you arent

So, do you let that stop you, or do you say it anyway?

Why would you allow others to control your speech like that? Say what you want. So it irritates some people, so what? They'll get over it, won't they?
Surely you're free to say what you like?

[I Ratant]

So, do you let that stop you, or do you say it anyway?

Why would you allow others to control your speech like that? Say what you want. So it irritates some people, so what? They'll get over it, won't they?
Surely you're free to say what you like?
.
That word, begins with n.....
I wouldn't recommend its use.
Let the dummies use it.
I hear it all the time with many of the people I know.
The whites... it's -always- a curse.
The non-whites.. depends.. sometimes a mention of affection, sometimes a curse.
It may be a curtailment of freedom of speech, by not using it, ever, but it's also similar to swinging your arms. That has to cease before your arm hits my face.
Words get slung and everyone can hear them.
Some folks might take umbrage... even though not knowing the u.. word. :)

[Skeptic Ginger]

A few weeks back I'm at this public building with a little extra time, and there is this pretty young woman there, and out of politeness and because we're sharing the same space for the moment, we exchange a few banal words. I ask her if she's a student because we're not far from a college, she's got books with her and she's about the right age. It turns out she is. That follows by asking what she's studying. That's where I get the racist rant.

It turns out her ambition is to learn human resources and then either join the army or Homeland Security. I didn't learn what the lure of the Army was, but she proudly stated she wanted to join Homeland Security because she has some "strong opinions about immigration."

She's against it. All of it. Some of them want to come over here and be terrorists, and others just want to come here illegally and take advantage of our social services. Those are the worst, she says, the Mexicans. She knows about the Mexicans first hand because last year when she almost lost her apartment and she needed help, she went down to the social services office, but they wouldn't help her. She believed they would have helped her if her skin were a different colour, (darker) but since it wasn't and she didn't have a baby, (and why should she be punished for making the right decision?!) but they helped all the Mexicans who were there.

About then she noticed the stare I was giving her wasn't the normal encouraging stare one usually gives a pretty woman. Maybe she has a clue as to how awful she sounds, because she adds, "Oh it's okay. I can talk **** about Mexicans if I want to. I'm part Mexican myself" I didn't ask her which part, but I certainly wanted to. There wasn't anything about her that suggested Mexican or any kind of Spanish, but if she says it I'll accept it as true. It didn't occur to me later to ask her why she didn't bring it up at the social services office if she really believed they would only help minorities.

then she went on to tell a story of how back in High School there was a Mexican girl that wanted to fight her because she had been talking **** about Mexicans. She got right up in that Mexican girl's face and told her she was part Mexican too and can say what she wants, and then she would have fought that girl, but the SRO officer was right there and she couldn't do that. She sure did want to, though.

So I leave, hoping she never makes it into the Army, Homeland Security or any aspect of Human Resources. Part of me is wondering if she was pulling my leg because it's just not very often anymore that you hear people express their bigotry so openly. How bizarre it was that she really seemed to think that claiming kinship with Mexicans somehow made anti-Mexican bigotry acceptable.

To properly mask profanity. Sometimes they really are airheads when they open their mouths.






BTW, the disappointment when one meets what appears to be an attractive person until they open their mouths is not limited to men meeting women.

[fuelair]

.
That word, begins with n.....
I wouldn't recommend its use.
Let the dummies use it.
I hear it all the time with many of the people I know.
The whites... it's -always- a curse.
The non-whites.. depends.. sometimes a mention of affection, sometimes a curse.
It may be a curtailment of freedom of speech, by not using it, ever, but it's also similar to swinging your arms. That has to cease before your arm hits my face.
Words get slung and everyone can hear them.
Some folks might take umbrage... even though not knowing the u.. word. :)

If I follow you correctly, I suspect you misunderstood the deeper meaning of what Slingblade actually said as opposed to the words in which she said it!!

[slingblade]

.
That word, begins with n.....
I wouldn't recommend its use.
Let the dummies use it.
I hear it all the time with many of the people I know.
The whites... it's -always- a curse.
The non-whites.. depends.. sometimes a mention of affection, sometimes a curse.
It may be a curtailment of freedom of speech, by not using it, ever, but it's also similar to swinging your arms. That has to cease before your arm hits my face.
Words get slung and everyone can hear them.
Some folks might take umbrage... even though not knowing the u.. word. :)

Yeah. I was hoping it might be obvious that I get all that.

But these people who complain about its use seem to imply that they resent not being "allowed" to say it.

Is that out of respect, or fear, or what, exactly?

"They can say it, and it's fine." Apparently, it's not fine. Lots of people make this same complaint, so they must not think it's "fine."

"They get upset when we use it." Yeah, and you get upset over their using it. They seem willing and able to deal with that consequence. You could, too, couldn't you?

"If a word shouldn't be used, it shouldn't be used. It ought not matter who says it." I don't know if that's true or not, really, but let's go with it. It should be obvious that we don't get to control the speech of others. We can only control our own. If you feel a word shouldn't be used, then don't use it. But regardless of your opinion, you don't get to tell others how to speak, and expect their obedience. You seem to resent this being done to you. Why would it be permissible for you to do it to others?

I mean, seriously, what's the problem? You understand and respect the idea, or you understand it but you don't agree, or you don't understand and you resent it, or something else entirely....but no matter which, you're still allowing other people to tell you how to speak. You're making this choice, and no one else.

If you wouldn't use that word, if you find it offensive, then one might understand you don't like to hear anyone else use it. But the argument that "they're 'allowed' to use it, but we're not 'allowed,'" is misleading. Who "allows" them? They simply choose to. There are repercussions: other people don't like it, and they say so. It doesn't seem to affect the situation. You could do the same. What really stops you?

Using a certain word or not is your choice alone. Blaming other people for the words you do or don't use seems childish and futile.

[I Ratant]

It's fine with "them".... :)
I found it disrespectful and ignorant when I first heard it almost 70 years ago, and have had no reason to change my first impression since.
That it is common usage in both an affectional and disrespectful manner with "them" is their problem.
That "they" get upset hearing it applied by "us" in the original disrespectful manner as the ignorant still use it shows a disconnect with reality.
It's a bad word.
No one should use it.

[slingblade]

It's fine with "them".... :)
I found it disrespectful and ignorant when I first heard it almost 70 years ago, and have had no reason to change my first impression since.
That it is common usage in both an affectional and disrespectful manner with "them" is their problem.
That "they" get upset hearing it applied by "us" in the original disrespectful manner as the ignorant still use it shows a disconnect with reality.
It's a bad word.
No one should use it.

Yeah, I just want to know why it's such a burr under Pipeline's saddle.
He's the only one really stopping him from using any word. Blaming other people for his own choices....I dunno, man....

[AnnoyingPony]

My class once had a discussion on Affirmative Action. Everyone seemed to think that the only way to qualify their argument was by saying they were part black/Asian/Mexican/Native American/etc.

[I Ratant]

70 years ago when living at Fort Jackson SoCar... we had a black housekeeper assisting my mother.
Apparently back then skin color made no impression on me.
Later associations with blacks also didn't have any emphasis on color over personality.
It's what inside that matters, not the exterior.
None of us chose our parents or where we're born.
That shouldn't even be a factor in interpersonal relationships, except as learning experiences with differing backgrounds.
Up to my sophomore year in high school, I'd never encountered rampant racism, until we were stationed in Virginia, from 1954 on.(We were at Ft. Jackson maybe a year, until Dad was sent to England, and we moved back to New Jersey. No segregated schools in New Jersey, or Kansas, or Germany as the Army shipped us around.)
Segregation was the law of the land in Va.
I thought having separate facilities for the "coloreds" was the stupidest thing I'd ever seen.
Next to religious prejudices, it still is.

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

Mexico had quite a bit of immigration from Europe throughout its history, mostly from Spain but also from Italy, Germany and Ireland. According to Wikipedia, up to 17 percent of the population of Mexico is Caucasian:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Latin_American#Mexico

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexicans_of_European_descent


And, of course, the vast majority of Mexicans are actually mestizo, or of mixed European and Indian descent.


So perhaps she was a white person of Mexican descent, despite not being Latina. You don't have to be brown to be Mexican.

:Shrug:

Not that it would excuse any of garbage she was spewing, of course.

[Brattus]

A few weeks back I'm at this public building with a little extra time, and there is this pretty young woman there, and out of politeness and because we're sharing the same space for the moment, we exchange a few banal words. I ask her if she's a student because we're not far from a college, she's got books with her and she's about the right age. It turns out she is. That follows by asking what she's studying. That's where I get the racist rant.

It turns out her ambition is to learn human resources and then either join the army or Homeland Security. I didn't learn what the lure of the Army was, but she proudly stated she wanted to join Homeland Security because she has some "strong opinions about immigration."

She's against it. All of it. Some of them want to come over here and be terrorists, and others just want to come here illegally and take advantage of our social services. Those are the worst, she says, the Mexicans. She knows about the Mexicans first hand because last year when she almost lost her apartment and she needed help, she went down to the social services office, but they wouldn't help her. She believed they would have helped her if her skin were a different colour, (darker) but since it wasn't and she didn't have a baby, (and why should she be punished for making the right decision?!) but they helped all the Mexicans who were there.

About then she noticed the stare I was giving her wasn't the normal encouraging stare one usually gives a pretty woman. Maybe she has a clue as to how awful she sounds, because she adds, "Oh it's okay. I can talk **** about Mexicans if I want to. I'm part Mexican myself" I didn't ask her which part, but I certainly wanted to. There wasn't anything about her that suggested Mexican or any kind of Spanish, but if she says it I'll accept it as true. It didn't occur to me later to ask her why she didn't bring it up at the social services office if she really believed they would only help minorities.

then she went on to tell a story of how back in High School there was a Mexican girl that wanted to fight her because she had been talking **** about Mexicans. She got right up in that Mexican girl's face and told her she was part Mexican too and can say what she wants, and then she would have fought that girl, but the SRO officer was right there and she couldn't do that. She sure did want to, though.

So I leave, hoping she never makes it into the Army, Homeland Security or any aspect of Human Resources. Part of me is wondering if she was pulling my leg because it's just not very often anymore that you hear people express their bigotry so openly. How bizarre it was that she really seemed to think that claiming kinship with Mexicans somehow made anti-Mexican bigotry acceptable.

To properly mask profanity.

Mm? I'm gonna guess that like me you're white.
I'm also gonna guess that unlike me you are not an uneducated working class dog trying to find honest work.
Because if you were then you would see that unless your skin is brown and you are related to the manager there is no work to be found.

A simple glance at the state of California will show you the irreversible damage the Mexicans have done to the United States.
They do suck the social services dry.
There are schools every other block on every street filled with Mexican children who's parents do not belong in this country legally.
Business staffed to the hilt with under the table non tax paying payrolls.

Those business all owned by white people just like you that think it's not PC to call a citizen from Mexico a Mexican.
People just like you that love the Mexican work force that illegally saves your company tons of money, while at the same time screws the state and country that made your company possible to begin with.

NO! I do not want to buy a tamale!
NO! I do not want to buy a ripped DVD of a movie you recorded at the theater with your camcorder!
NO! I do not need another taco truck parked outside my home!
NO! I do not need another burrito joint opening up in the local strip mall with free government grant money.
NO! I do not need another Mexican market that refuses service to all non brown people!

If any of the non brown people dare to complain about the refusal of service or not being able to find a job then they are horrible racist scum
who want to mow down little brown baby's at the border with machine guns.

I am an American. I have to compete in the job market with Mexicans who work for less but make more because they don't pay taxes.
Taxes needed to keep the state and Federal governments going.

Immigration is at least half the reason why the Federal government is now shutting down. Also half the reason social security is destroyed.

But hey! Because some other white people over 100 years ago that I am no way related to owned slaves I am supposed to keep my mouth shut and embrace their culture.

Anything less makes me a racist scum who likes to mow down the little brown babies at the border with machine guns.

[Juniversal]

Its crazy, like how so many black people run around saying ****** this and ****** that, and then tell you how theyre allowed but you arentDo you have some irresistible urge to drop the n bomb? In this day and age you'll honestly find many don't care if you use the word in a fleetingly in conversation. Well as long as no offense is meant. ;)

Regardless I always found the question "why can they call each other *ggers but I can't" to be completely dumb and self explanatory (mind you I can tell you that generally most see the *gga and *gger word as two completely different words).


So, do you let that stop you, or do you say it anyway?

Why would you allow others to control your speech like that? Say what you want. So it irritates some people, so what? They'll get over it, won't they?
Surely you're free to say what you like?I know where you're coming from but this sentiment comes off to me as very fantastical. The real world is different in practice then on paper. On paper it may sound good to say what you want when ever and where ever but in practice....not so much. ;)

I wouldn't condone anyone walk up to a girl and call her a female dog (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bitch) because some woman jokingly call each other that.

[Halfcentaur]

Mm? I'm gonna guess that like me you're white.
I'm also gonna guess that unlike me you are not an uneducated working class dog trying to find honest work.
Because if you were then you would see that unless your skin is brown and you are related to the manager there is no work to be found.

A simple glance at the state of California will show you the irreversible damage the Mexicans have done to the United States.
They do suck the social services dry.
There are schools every other block on every street filled with Mexican children who's parents do not belong in this country legally.
Business staffed to the hilt with under the table non tax paying payrolls.

Those business all owned by white people just like you that think it's not PC to call a citizen from Mexico a Mexican.
People just like you that love the Mexican work force that illegally saves your company tons of money, while at the same time screws the state and country that made your company possible to begin with.

NO! I do not want to buy a tamale!
NO! I do not want to buy a ripped DVD of a movie you recorded at the theater with your camcorder!
NO! I do not need another taco truck parked outside my home!
NO! I do not need another burrito joint opening up in the local strip mall with free government grant money.
NO! I do not need another Mexican market that refuses service to all non brown people!

If any of the non brown people dare to complain about the refusal of service or not being able to find a job then they are horrible racist scum
who want to mow down little brown baby's at the border with machine guns.

I am an American. I have to compete in the job market with Mexicans who work for less but make more because they don't pay taxes.
Taxes needed to keep the state and Federal governments going.

Immigration is at least half the reason why the Federal government is now shutting down. Also half the reason social security is destroyed.

But hey! Because some other white people over 100 years ago that I am no way related to owned slaves I am supposed to keep my mouth shut and embrace their culture.

Anything less makes me a racist scum who likes to mow down the little brown babies at the border with machine guns.

I haven't met many people who don't let irrational over generalizations cloud their judgement in some form or another. It's something the human mind seems naturally prone to doing. People do it small petty places, and some people let it apply to more complicated issues that really end up making them look foolish. Even the way these days people like to imagine the world as being either racist or non racist, it's not really that black or white, and it's just another example of the way people like to make sweeping over generalizations to understand issues. This doesn't mean it's excusable at all.

Even though there is a big issue with Mexican immigration at the moment, the way you are portraying it in your post above is founded in overly emotional and irrational over generalizations. This doesn't make you a baby killer, but it shows you're letting your frustrations cloud your rational thinking. This doesn't mean there are not issues with Mexican immigration that need to be addressed, but you are definitely sacrificing part of the reality of the situation to an emotionally charged rant.

[bluesjnr]

Yeah. I was hoping it might be obvious that I get all that.

But these people who complain about its use seem to imply that they resent not being "allowed" to say it.

Is that out of respect, or fear, or what, exactly?

"They can say it, and it's fine." Apparently, it's not fine. Lots of people make this same complaint, so they must not think it's "fine."

"They get upset when we use it." Yeah, and you get upset over their using it. They seem willing and able to deal with that consequence. You could, too, couldn't you?

"If a word shouldn't be used, it shouldn't be used. It ought not matter who says it." I don't know if that's true or not, really, but let's go with it. It should be obvious that we don't get to control the speech of others. We can only control our own. If you feel a word shouldn't be used, then don't use it. But regardless of your opinion, you don't get to tell others how to speak, and expect their obedience. You seem to resent this being done to you. Why would it be permissible for you to do it to others?

I mean, seriously, what's the problem? You understand and respect the idea, or you understand it but you don't agree, or you don't understand and you resent it, or something else entirely....but no matter which, you're still allowing other people to tell you how to speak. You're making this choice, and no one else.

If you wouldn't use that word, if you find it offensive, then one might understand you don't like to hear anyone else use it. But the argument that "they're 'allowed' to use it, but we're not 'allowed,'" is misleading. Who "allows" them? They simply choose to. There are repercussions: other people don't like it, and they say so. It doesn't seem to affect the situation. You could do the same. What really stops you?

Using a certain word or not is your choice alone. Blaming other people for the words you do or don't use seems childish and futile.

Bloody well said! I truly hadn't considered it that way, I'm ashamed to admit.

[WildCat]

Mexico had quite a bit of immigration from Europe throughout its history, mostly from Spain but also from Italy, Germany and Ireland. According to Wikipedia, up to 17 percent of the population of Mexico is Caucasian:
It's actually over 90% Caucasian. Most Hispanics are Caucasian.

Of course, it depends on who's defining it.

[Cain]

****in' Mexicans. Pretty soon they're going to swarm these forums, make'em espanol only.

Actually, that does remind me of Orkut, a social networking site that wanted to compete with Facebook and Myspace. All these Brazilians started joining and, as you know, they write in this weird Mexican, and most of the boards became unusable by me -- a real American (since I only speaka the one language).

The problem with immigration, especially high levels of illegal immigration, is that it undermines a social safety net. People are inherently clannish/tribal and so when they see "their" dollars going to some outside group, it breeds resentment like Mexicans breed --. It's also fair to say illegal immigration depresses wages. On the other hand, I feel no special obligation to "Americans" -- especially since this country stole the south west. Moreover, illegal immigration is highly effective at fighting poverty. If Americans are a little poorer, and Mexicans are a lot richer, then that's a trade-off I'm willing to accept. I also like seeing white conservatives bitch about global capitalism.

[pipelineaudio]

Yeah, I just want to know why it's such a burr under Pipeline's saddle.
He's the only one really stopping him from using any word. Blaming other people for his own choices....I dunno, man....

Way to make a strawman, straw fleet and run a straw indy 500

[Tsukasa Buddha]

My class once had a discussion on Affirmative Action. Everyone seemed to think that the only way to qualify their argument was by saying they were part black/Asian/Mexican/Native American/etc.

Heh, on the news whenever there is a debate related to race, for some reason the Republican and Democratic representatives suddenly become very tan...

[Mycroft]

You're asking for logic from a racist.

Touche.


"Some of my best friends are..."

Another time I argued with a revisionist who insisted Mark Webber of the IHR couldn't be racist because he once taught at an African school where the students were presumably majority black. I pointed out that even racists need jobs, and his long-term association with the white supremacist National Alliance was probably more indicative of his feelings towards non-whites.

[fuelair]

Bloody well said! I truly hadn't considered it that way, I'm ashamed to admit.Sling is quite good at this (and many other ) topics. That's why it is a damned shame she isn't a teacher (well, other reasons too, but...). :):):)

[Skeptic]

NO! I do not want to buy a tamale! ...
NO! I do not need another taco truck parked outside my home! ...
NO! I do not need another burrito joint opening up in the local strip mall ...

You seem upset. Calm down, I'll take you to dinner. I know this great Mexican restau...

oh wait.

Seriously, with all honesty, yes, I see your point. I don't think you're being a racist but merely seriously annoyed. But this doesn't mean your claims are necessarily accurate.

[yomero]

They do suck the social services dry.

Business staffed to the hilt with under the table non tax paying payrolls.

People just like you that love the Mexican work force that illegally saves your company tons of money, while at the same time screws the state and country that made your company possible to begin with.

I am an American. I have to compete in the job market with Mexicans who work for less but make more because they don't pay taxes.
Taxes needed to keep the state and Federal governments going.

Immigration is at least half the reason why the Federal government is now shutting down. Also half the reason social security is destroyed.


It is evident from your post that this is an emotional issue for you. But you must strive to think about this rationally to avoid arriving at a mistaken and unfair conclusion.

It is a misjudgement to believe that illegal workers don't pay taxes, they do. Their contribution is larger than the benefits they can collect. Sales taxes, property taxes, excise taxes are hard to avoid. Medicare, Social Security and personal income taxes are automatically withheld from salaried workers' paychecks. Many self-employed illegal workers file personal income tax in the belief that complying with the IRS will help them gain legal status. To avoid drawing attention to themselves, illegal workers will not demand any refunds that they could be entitled to.

The Social Security Administration estimates that taxes paid by illegal workers contribute to the solvency of SS and Medicare. The SSA receives around $9 billion a year from such workers. Seldom is it claimed by the people who pay it, instead it covers retirement checks for legal workers. It is calculated that 10% of SSA surplus comes from payments by illegals. Besides emergency medical care and K-12 education, there are few services that illegals can get.

http://reason.org/news/show/122411.html
http://www.usatoday.com/money/perfi/taxes/2008-04-10-immigrantstaxes_N.htm
http://www.taxfoundation.org/blog/show/1424.html

So far, what I have posted has been information I quickly found by googling ''Illegal immigrants taxes''. There is another aspect to this matter which is only my personal opinion. Perhaps some will agree.

Beyond the question of the taxes paid by illegals and the incomplete benefits they receive in return, there is the matter of the contribution by their labor to the wealth of society and the consumer goods and services they get in return. Most of us have to work for an income. Our work increases the amount of goods available to society. With our income we obtain the goods and services we need and can afford. Some people (Wall-streeters?) plunder much more than they contribute. I contend that illegal workers give more to society than they receive.

[Amapola]

That's a great post and good points, Yomero. I think your last point is true. And if it were only about the amount of taxes, why not go after big corporations who use all sorts of shenanigans to avoid paying taxes? I bet Exon would end up paying lots more into the system than an illegal alien working a construction job.

Anyone who is truly upset about illegal immigrants from Mexico should be working hard to come up with ways to make Mexico an economically successful country. After all, we don't sit around complaining about illegal Canadians.

[pipelineaudio]

Anyone who is truly upset about illegal immigrants from Mexico should be working hard to come up with ways to make Mexico an economically successful country. After all, we don't sit around complaining about illegal Canadians.

Anyone who worries about rape should be trying hard to find willing chicks for the rapists to nail

oh wait, was that supposed to make sense?

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

It's actually over 90% Caucasian. Most Hispanics are Caucasian.

Of course, it depends on who's defining it.


Well, point being, you don't have to be chocolate colored to be Mexican.

So the, ehem, young lady Mycroft met might have been part Latina.

[Amapola]

@pipelineaudio: I'm so sorry that my point has eluded you. Canada is a great and successful country where most can make a good living and so it's citizens are not forced to go elsewhere to try and make ends meet or support their families. This can not be said for Mexico, alas, the poor there are very poor and can be driven by desperation to attempt to cross the border, whether legally or illegally, because life is better in the USA. Now, if life were really good in Mexico, there would be no need to leave, and in fact I think many of these people don't really wish to leave their family behind. They are very family oriented in their culture.

[yomero]

Anyone who is truly upset about illegal immigrants from Mexico should be working hard to come up with ways to make Mexico an economically successful country. After all, we don't sit around complaining about illegal Canadians.

Anyone who worries about rape should be trying hard to find willing chicks for the rapists to nail

oh wait, was that supposed to make sense?

Pipeline, I don't think your analogy works. Amapola does not seem to be advocating that the USA willingly accept illegal immigrants. Rather, she proposes a way to diminish immigration: Improve economic conditions in Mexico. I agree with that part of her statement. But I don't think that Americans should carry the responsibility to achieve that. We, the Mexican people, have that duty.

ETA:I should learn to type faster. I see that Amapola already replied to Pipeline's post.

[slingblade]

I know where you're coming from but this sentiment comes off to me as very fantastical. The real world is different in practice then on paper. On paper it may sound good to say what you want when ever and where ever but in practice....not so much. ;)

That's cool, but this it isn't a "sentiment." It's a simple fact: our choices carry consequences. We decide if we'll accept those consequences or not. To say that other people have decided it for us by providing those consequences puts the responsibility for our choice on them, not on us.

Is that where it belongs?

I don't generally use the word in question, the "n-word," for my own reasons. I am making that choice. No one is making it for me, and no one can allow me or not allow me to use the word. If I were to maintain that, I would be stating clearly that I willingly let others manipulate me, and all I know to do about it is feebly object on an internet forum.

Now, if I do choose to use it, I am also choosing to accept any repercussions for it. I can't expect to use it and not face objections, since I know it's considered an objectionable word.

And that's what's really being said by some who holler about "not being allowed" to use it: "I not only want to be able to say it, but to say it without facing any penalty or censure." Um, well, no. That's not part of the deal, sorry. It's a crap little word, with a ton of negative baggage, and you can't use it without toting some of that baggage along. Even the people who do use it are aware of that.

I wouldn't condone anyone walk up to a girl and call her a female dog (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bitch) because some woman jokingly call each other that.

Again, though, that's not what I'm addressing. I'm talking about who chooses for you what you can say and what you can't? And I'm making the argument that even in the face of possible repercussions, even in the face of an outright threat of harm, it is still you who makes this choice.

This relates to the OP in a direct way: the sentiment, "it's okay, I can speak poorly of them, because I'm one of them," is an attempt to defer the consequences of objectionable opinions by "in-grouping." I'd call it fallacious, though I'm not really sure of the type.

But her reasoning is likely something to the effect that criticism of a group should come only from within the group, because only the members of the group really understand the dynamics. Outsiders do not and cannot understand, and so their criticism is often perceived as bigoted or racist, by that very virtue.

I do feel what the girl in the OP said was a fallacy. I just don't know how to articulate my reasons.

[pipelineaudio]

@pipelineaudio: I'm so sorry that my point has eluded you. Canada is a great and successful country where most can make a good living and so it's citizens are not forced to go elsewhere to try and make ends meet or support their families. This can not be said for Mexico, alas, the poor there are very poor and can be driven by desperation to attempt to cross the border, whether legally or illegally, because life is better in the USA. Now, if life were really good in Mexico, there would be no need to leave, and in fact I think many of these people don't really wish to leave their family behind. They are very family oriented in their culture.

I understand that part of the point, I just wish to make an objection, that in no way should the victim of a crime be subject to a crime just because they can't find a solution that is acceptable to the criminal. I understand that Mexico is a mess, all of our families have strong Mexican tie. In the border states its hard to escape from. However, this does not excuse the criminals who won't take their turn in line the same as all the honest immigrants do. I'd like all the money in your bank account, but I dont think there's a moral imperative for you to give it to me

[pipelineaudio]

Pipeline, I don't think your analogy works. Amapola does not seem to be advocating that the USA willingly accept illegal immigrants. Rather, she proposes a way to diminish immigration: Improve economic conditions in Mexico. I agree with that part of her statement. But I don't think that Americans should carry the responsibility to achieve that. We, the Mexican people, have that duty.

I see what you did there

[quixotecoyote]

I see what you did there

That's just your knee-jerk acting up. I know what you think you saw, and that ain't it.

[pipelineaudio]

That's just your knee-jerk acting up. I know what you think you saw, and that ain't it.

If it didn't happen every single time illegal immigration is mentioned on this forum, I'd have an easier time believing you

[quixotecoyote]

If it didn't happen every single time illegal immigration is mentioned on this forum, I'd have an easier time believing you

When someone says they don't want illegal immigration, and propose reducing the impetus for immigration in general as a response, there's nothing shady or bait-and-switch about it.

[yomero]

Pipeline, I don't think your analogy works. Amapola does not seem to be advocating that the USA willingly accept illegal immigrants . Rather, she proposes a way to diminish immigration: Improve economic conditions in Mexico. I agree with that part of her statement. But I don't think that Americans should carry the responsibility to achieve that. We, the Mexican people, have that duty.
Pipeline emphasized in red those words in my post.

I see what you did there

What are you seeing? There is no secret message in my post, no hidden code.

[joobie]

Mm? I'm gonna guess that like me you're white.
I'm also gonna guess that unlike me you are not an uneducated working class dog trying to find honest work.
Because if you were then you would see that unless your skin is brown and you are related to the manager there is no work to be found.

i know a half dozen lily white people in california who have gotten blue collar working class unskilled labor or unskilled office type jobs in the last 2 months. maybe your attitude has something to do with your inability to find employment.

[Juniversal]

That's cool, but this it isn't a "sentiment." It's a simple fact: our choices carry consequences. We decide if we'll accept those consequences or not. To say that other people have decided it for us by providing those consequences puts the responsibility for our choice on them, not on us.

Is that where it belongs?

I don't generally use the word in question, the "n-word," for my own reasons. I am making that choice. No one is making it for me, and no one can allow me or not allow me to use the word. If I were to maintain that, I would be stating clearly that I willingly let others manipulate me, and all I know to do about it is feebly object on an internet forum.

Now, if I do choose to use it, I am also choosing to accept any repercussions for it. I can't expect to use it and not face objections, since I know it's considered an objectionable word.

And that's what's really being said by some who holler about "not being allowed" to use it: "I not only want to be able to say it, but to say it without facing any penalty or censure." Um, well, no. That's not part of the deal, sorry. It's a crap little word, with a ton of negative baggage, and you can't use it without toting some of that baggage along. Even the people who do use it are aware of that.



Again, though, that's not what I'm addressing. I'm talking about who chooses for you what you can say and what you can't? And I'm making the argument that even in the face of possible repercussions, even in the face of an outright threat of harm, it is still you who makes this choice.

This relates to the OP in a direct way: the sentiment, "it's okay, I can speak poorly of them, because I'm one of them," is an attempt to defer the consequences of objectionable opinions by "in-grouping." I'd call it fallacious, though I'm not really sure of the type.

But her reasoning is likely something to the effect that criticism of a group should come only from within the group, because only the members of the group really understand the dynamics. Outsiders do not and cannot understand, and so their criticism is often perceived as bigoted or racist, by that very virtue.

I do feel what the girl in the OP said was a fallacy. I just don't know how to articulate my reasons.I actually agree... I don't think we're actually in disagreement. ;)

[Chupacabras]

Pipeline emphasized in red those words in my post.

El cree que borraste "ilegal" en la segunda parte con malicia. Está viendo monos con tranchetes en un tema que siempre viene con mucha carga pasional.

Re the OP: I couldn't find the numbers quickly, but I understand the US has a yearly quota for new immigration admittance which varies/depends on the country of origin. For years now, the quota for Mexico has been deliberately kept in nada, which reminds me of the Cuban embargo and its practical results.

I also agree vehemently that we Mexicans must do our part - the best part - to stop the need for people to search for luck in the US. But where many people express disdain for our people, culture or government, they also ignore that the world is interconnected, and you may end up being partly responsible for what you blame others about.

That lady is nurturing the very ghost she wants to destroy. Alas, how many people plan for "a better future" with a flawed strategy.

On a tangentially related note, back in the day Mexico had an illegal immigration problem when a lot of people from China came to settle, mainly in the NW states. They didn't want to the US. Here we had commerce, growth and a promising future. We don't want to talk about it, but we eventually blamed them for theft and rape (and bad businesses practices, etc...) and then persecuted and systematically killed them more shameless than Jews in WWII. I put this here for some perspective: its natural things change over time, but when did that Global Village concept went down the drain?

ETA: the Mexican persecution of Chinese took place in the first half of the 20th century.

[pipelineaudio]

On a tangentially related note, back in the day Mexico had an illegal immigration problem when a lot of people from China came to settle, mainly in the NW states.

Fill them in on how illegals from Guatemala, El Salvador and Honduras are treated in Mexico today. I think many of the "anti-minutemen" posters on the JREF would be quite shocked

[I Ratant]

i know a half dozen lily white people in california who have gotten blue collar working class unskilled labor or unskilled office type jobs in the last 2 months. maybe your attitude has something to do with your inability to find employment.
.
I see lots of workers at the Mall that move from shop to shop as the shops close and new ones open.
Anyone looking for work seems to be able to find it.

[Amapola]

I understand that part of the point, I just wish to make an objection, that in no way should the victim of a crime be subject to a crime just because they can't find a solution that is acceptable to the criminal. I understand that Mexico is a mess, all of our families have strong Mexican tie. In the border states its hard to escape from. However, this does not excuse the criminals who won't take their turn in line the same as all the honest immigrants do. I'd like all the money in your bank account, but I dont think there's a moral imperative for you to give it to me

Again, I don't think we are communicating well here, so let me see if I can clarify. In no way am I saying that illegal immigration is OK. What I am saying is, that if Mexico's citizens were as prosperous as those of say, Canada, there would not be an illegal immigration issue at all. Naturally Mexico will be the ultimate one to solve this, but in the meantime, for all I know, *you* might have some brilliant idea that would help.

So far all USA efforts to solve the issue have not worked. Bigger fences, more guards, stricter laws - these have not worked. I see nothing wrong with trying to solve the problem in a different way. Trying to solve a problem does not excuse the law breaker. It's just trying to solve the problem.

In a very real way illegal immigration actually hurts Mexico, as Yomero pointed out. Their work force is here in the USA, building houses, working in shops, etc. when they could be in Mexico, working to build a stronger Mexico. I don't think the illegal immigration situation is good for either country, which just makes me all the more anxious for the issues to be solved. In the meantime, I don't believe that racism or hatred will help the situation at all. (This is in reference the lady in the OP, not to pipelineaudio.) The illegal immigrants are human beings. Who knows what I would hazard, if I were in their shoes, and that desperate? But you see, having sympathy for the human beings trapped in this does not mean I think illegal immigration is OK.

[aggle-rithm]

I used to grumble about Mexicans taking over my home state of Texas, then I remembered that we Europeans took it over from them first.

[pipelineaudio]

Again, I don't think we are communicating well here, so let me see if I can clarify. In no way am I saying that illegal immigration is OK. What I am saying is, that if Mexico's citizens were as prosperous as those of say, Canada, there would not be an illegal immigration issue at all.

I understand, and I agree. It would be nice if Mexico was prosperous again. It would help them be prosperous if they got to keep some of their brain trust

[Juniversal]

Again, I don't think we are communicating well here, so let me see if I can clarify. In no way am I saying that illegal immigration is OK. What I am saying is, that if Mexico's citizens were as prosperous as those of say, Canada, there would not be an illegal immigration issue at all. Naturally Mexico will be the ultimate one to solve this, but in the meantime, for all I know, *you* might have some brilliant idea that would help.

So far all USA efforts to solve the issue have not worked. Bigger fences, more guards, stricter laws - these have not worked. I see nothing wrong with trying to solve the problem in a different way. Trying to solve a problem does not excuse the law breaker. It's just trying to solve the problem.

In a very real way illegal immigration actually hurts Mexico, as Yomero pointed out. Their work force is here in the USA, building houses, working in shops, etc. when they could be in Mexico, working to build a stronger Mexico. I don't think the illegal immigration situation is good for either country, which just makes me all the more anxious for the issues to be solved. In the meantime, I don't believe that racism or hatred will help the situation at all. (This is in reference the lady in the OP, not to pipelineaudio.) The illegal immigrants are human beings. Who knows what I would hazard, if I were in their shoes, and that desperate? But you see, having sympathy for the human beings trapped in this does not mean I think illegal immigration is OK.I've thought about this myself and share the same sentiment. If Mexico was to stabilize economically and socially the illegal immigration problem would in part fix itself.


Less incentive to cross the border (in search of greater stability in America) = far less attempting to migrate to the United States. Needless to say it's easier said then done and Mexico's drug trafficking problem has become so bad that I don't know how much stability they'll realistically see sans drug legalization in this country.


As long as the U.S. market remains lucrative and violent drug cartels have the power they do I don't see things changing to any great degree and no doubt (the border states in particular) will remain a funnel into the U.S. for disaffected Mexicans. I put it a similar way as you. If America had the same degree of economic and crime problems that Mexico has, Canada would seem that much more appealing and no doubt Americans would be (literally) dying to get into Canada, though it would likely be a much simpler task considering the relative absence of barren deserts that Mexico has as well as our traffic/interstate infrastructure. ;)

[shecky]

Fill them in on how illegals from Guatemala, El Salvador and Honduras are treated in Mexico today. I think many of the "anti-minutemen" posters on the JREF would be quite shocked


How Mexico treats immigrants from Guatemala, El Salvador and Honduras is irrelevant. Why should the US take its cues from Mexico when it comes to law enforcement?

I understand that part of the point, I just wish to make an objection, that in no way should the victim of a crime be subject to a crime just because they can't find a solution that is acceptable to the criminal.

Then why make it a crime at all? The crime of immigrating illegally is a victimless one. The only reason it exists is because Americans want it to exist. They vote on it with their dollars every day.

The real injustice is that the US treats the labor market as a centrally planned one, rather than a more or less free market, the way it does with goods and services. If one really dislikes illegal immigration, the best thing to do is liberalize immigration. This eliminates the need for super policing of the border, it allows immigrant workers to work legitimately. It increases the pool of labor, increases economic activity, increases demand for real estate. Not only does it encourage immigrants from sating demand for labor, it also allows immigrants to return home easily when the job market gets tighter, since crossing the border is less risky.

[shecky]

Mm? I'm gonna guess that like me you're white.
I'm also gonna guess that unlike me you are not an uneducated working class dog trying to find honest work.
Because if you were then you would see that unless your skin is brown and you are related to the manager there is no work to be found.

A simple glance at the state of California will show you the irreversible damage the Mexicans have done to the United States.
They do suck the social services dry.
There are schools every other block on every street filled with Mexican children who's parents do not belong in this country legally.
Business staffed to the hilt with under the table non tax paying payrolls.

Those business all owned by white people just like you that think it's not PC to call a citizen from Mexico a Mexican.
People just like you that love the Mexican work force that illegally saves your company tons of money, while at the same time screws the state and country that made your company possible to begin with.

NO! I do not want to buy a tamale!
NO! I do not want to buy a ripped DVD of a movie you recorded at the theater with your camcorder!
NO! I do not need another taco truck parked outside my home!
NO! I do not need another burrito joint opening up in the local strip mall with free government grant money.
NO! I do not need another Mexican market that refuses service to all non brown people!

If any of the non brown people dare to complain about the refusal of service or not being able to find a job then they are horrible racist scum
who want to mow down little brown baby's at the border with machine guns.

I am an American. I have to compete in the job market with Mexicans who work for less but make more because they don't pay taxes.
Taxes needed to keep the state and Federal governments going.

Immigration is at least half the reason why the Federal government is now shutting down. Also half the reason social security is destroyed.

But hey! Because some other white people over 100 years ago that I am no way related to owned slaves I am supposed to keep my mouth shut and embrace their culture.

Anything less makes me a racist scum who likes to mow down the little brown babies at the border with machine guns.


Your rant makes you sound pretty racist. Why? Because it's thin on facts, and highlights your dislike for all things Mexican. When you make unsubstantiated claims about who pays taxes, who gets the welfare, and then use that lack of information to justify your disdain for taco stands and brown people in general, you will be pegged as a racist. Because that's what racists do.

[I Ratant]

How Mexico treats immigrants from Guatemala, El Salvador and Honduras is irrelevant. Why should the US take its cues from Mexico when it comes to law enforcement?
.
We had better sure hope/pray that never occurs! :)
.

Then why make it a crime at all? The crime of immigrating illegally is a victimless one. The only reason it exists is because Americans want it to exist. They vote on it with their dollars every day.
.
It becomes a crime and creates victims when the illegals intrude on social services.
If they don't access the various social services... food, medicine, shelter, and provide these things legally to themselves, then there is no impact on society.
Otherwise, it's taking what hasn't been earned.

[Taarkin]

.
It becomes a crime and creates victims when the illegals intrude on social services.
If they don't access the various social services... food, medicine, shelter, and provide these things legally to themselves, then there is no impact on society.
Otherwise, it's taking what hasn't been earned.
What do natural born citizens do to earn these things that illegal immigrants don't?

[I Ratant]

What do natural born citizens do to earn these things that illegal immigrants don't?
.
Mums and Daddums pay taxes?

[slingblade]

What do natural born citizens do to earn these things that illegal immigrants don't?

Pay taxes, for the most part.

If you're illegal, you can't pay taxes. You'll be found out. Of course, some natural-born citizens also dodge their taxes, but no one thinks that because they're natural-born, it's okay that they do so. Americans don't much care for tax-dodgers.

[trvlr2]

Pay taxes, for the most part.

If you're illegal, you can't pay taxes. You'll be found out. Of course, some natural-born citizens also dodge their taxes, but no one thinks that because they're natural-born, it's okay that they do so. Americans don't much care for tax-dodgers.

I would disagree about the last statement.
It would seem America loves tax dodgers. And even encourages them.

[slingblade]

I would disagree about the last statement.
It would seem America loves tax dodgers. And even encourages them.

I guess that depends on the circles in which you run.


Not in mine. :cool:

[yomero]

.
We had better sure hope/pray that never occurs! :)
It becomes a crime and creates victims when the illegals intrude on social services.
If they don't access the various social services... food, medicine, shelter, and provide these things legally to themselves, then there is no impact on society.
Otherwise, it's taking what hasn't been earned.

Pay taxes, for the most part.
If you're illegal, you can't pay taxes. You'll be found out. Of course, some natural-born citizens also dodge their taxes, but no one thinks that because they're natural-born, it's okay that they do so. Americans don't much care for tax-dodgers.

Illegal immigrants can pay taxes using a TIN number. Their motivation is the belief that paying to the IRS will aid them in gaining a legal status. It is demanding a refund which they could be entitled to that they avoid, to prevent drawing attention.
.
Mums and Daddums pay taxes?

Illegal immigrants do pay taxes. Their contribution is larger than the benefits they receive. I thought that had been established in my post and the links there. Here it is again.
It is evident from your post that this is an emotional issue for you. But you must strive to think about this rationally to avoid arriving at a mistaken and unfair conclusion.

It is a misjudgement to believe that illegal workers don't pay taxes, they do. Their contribution is larger than the benefits they can collect. Sales taxes, property taxes, excise taxes are hard to avoid. Medicare, Social Security and personal income taxes are automatically withheld from salaried workers' paychecks. Many self-employed illegal workers file personal income tax in the belief that complying with the IRS will help them gain legal status. To avoid drawing attention to themselves, illegal workers will not demand any refunds that they could be entitled to.

The Social Security Administration estimates that taxes paid by illegal workers contribute to the solvency of SS and Medicare. The SSA receives around $9 billion a year from such workers. Seldom is it claimed by the people who pay it, instead it covers retirement checks for legal workers. It is calculated that 10% of SSA surplus comes from payments by illegals. Besides emergency medical care and K-12 education, there are few services that illegals can get.

http://reason.org/news/show/122411.html
http://www.usatoday.com/money/perfi/taxes/2008-04-10-immigrantstaxes_N.htm
http://www.taxfoundation.org/blog/show/1424.html

So far, what I have posted has been information I quickly found by googling ''Illegal immigrants taxes''. There is another aspect to this matter which is only my personal opinion. Perhaps some will agree.

Beyond the question of the taxes paid by illegals and the incomplete benefits they receive in return, there is the matter of the contribution by their labor to the wealth of society and the consumer goods and services they get in return. Most of us have to work for an income. Our work increases the amount of goods available to society. With our income we obtain the goods and services we need and can afford. Some people (Wall-streeters?) plunder much more than they contribute. I contend that illegal workers give more to society than they receive.

From The Tax Foundation Organization I have copy- pasted the following:

''It is true that many undocumented immigrants pay payroll taxes (i.e. FICA and Medicare) using either an invalid Social Security number or a Tax Identification Number (TIN), and empirical evidence tends to show that a large fraction of the economic incidence of these taxes falls on workers ''

[I Ratant]

So the gist is those illegals that use incorrect IDs can pay into SS, without receiving any benefits.
OK, that's their problem, due to their illegal status.
They must make an effort to fix that, to enjoy the benefits.