Osama bin Laden dead,

[Severus Snape]

One good thing Lord Obamort has done so far.

[Severus Snape]

Nope, it was tossed overboard.

He did serve one useful purpose then: as shark kibble.

[BenBurch]

Where did the DNA come from? His westernised son?

His sister, who died in a hospital in New York.

[thaiboxerken]

Nope, it was tossed overboard.

Buried at sea. Conspiracy nuts will have orgasms with this news.

[AdMan]

This is interesting:

The White House’s original plan had been to bomb the house, but Obama ultimately decided against that.

“The helicopter raid was riskier. It was more daring,” an official told POLITICO. “But he wanted proof. He didn’t want to just leave a pile of rubble.”

Officials knew there were 22 people living there, and Obama wanted to be sure not to kill civilians unnecessarily. So he ordered officials to come up with an air-assault plan.


http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0511/54093_Page2.html#ixzz1LDJvxycL

[BenBurch]

This is interesting:



http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0511/54093_Page2.html#ixzz1LDJvxycL

Indeed. And it worked.

[NoahFence]

http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/topten

^^
Great website. Notice the guy with the red beneath his name....

DECEASED

WHOOO HOOOO

[Patricio Elicer]

Buried at sea. Conspiracy nuts will have orgasms with this news.


Yes, and even more if no convincing evidence ever surfaces, I mean the kind of evidence that will convince 99% of the people.

[NoahFence]

Buried at sea. Conspiracy nuts will have orgasms with this news.

It wouldn't matter to those dolts what the circumstances were. If he was still above sea level, they'd say he went to Area 51 in a black helicopter.....

[thaiboxerken]

Yes, and even more if no convincing evidence ever surfaces, I mean the kind of evidence that will convince 99% of the people.

I think nothing will convince the 10% that ares conspiracy idiots.

[DaN K. StAnLeY]

I refuse to believe the body is actually UBL until someone also provides his birth certificate. How can he be dead, if he was never really born. Heavy, man.

[EGarrett]

I just wish they had captured him so they could waterboard him 184 times to "get information."

[AdMan]

Some speculation...


Abbottabad is essentially a military cantonment city in Pakistan, in the hills to the north of the capital of Islamabad, in an area where much of the land is controlled or owned by the Pakistan Army and retired army officers...

It stretches credulity to think that a mansion of that scale could have been built and occupied by bin Laden for six years without it coming to the attention of anyone in Pakistan’s Army.

The initial circumstantial evidence suggests the opposite is more likely—that bin Laden was effectively being housed under Pakistani state control.


Source (http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/newsdesk/2011/05/notes-on-the-death-of-osama-bin-laden.html#ixzz1LDNMuVug).

[Zelenius]

It looks like Osama was hiding in a mansion within a guarded compound right next to the Pakistani version of West Point and Annapolis combined. Many military bases, the main Pakistani military academy and even intelligence agencies are all located there. Abbottabad is also pretty close to Islamabad. It's just impossible to deny the complicity of the Pakistani government in helping Bin Laden and Islamic terrorists.

Pakistan must be punished for this betrayal. The U.S was scammed. All foreign aid for Pakistan should cease immediately, followed by sanctions. All immigration from Pakistan should be banned. The world should demand that Pakistan destroy all its nuclear weapons or face the consequences. If there is another war between India and Pakistan, the U.S should take India's side.

There is just too much complicity between many members of the Pakistani government and Al Qaeda and the Taliban for there to be any trust or friendship with Pakistan. It's pretty obvious where the extremists are getting many of their weapons and training.

The U.S military is already stretched thin and broke, so going to war with Pakistan isn't a viable option at this time. Unless the plan is to go to war with Pakistan or "contain" it from Afghanistan, we should pull out of Afghanistan, since it is obvious that with this level of complicity the situation is hopeless. The main reason we went in there is now dead anyway.

[Nosi]

Wait, they're going to respect Islamic burial procedures for OBL's body?

WTF?!

Grind him into fish bait. Feed him to pigs.

The man's dead. Who really up and cares what happens to the meat really... The United States does need to maintain its friendships and if not actual friendships, 'you scratch my back, I scratch yours' relationships as they can get critical in the dark of black ops.

[Jekyll's Guest]

A mansion with no Internet lines

Well it's good to know that he's been living in unimaginable hell for the past decade.

I almost feel sorry for the poor bugger, they promised him a cave with dial-up.

[Jekyll's Guest]

Markets react (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-05-02/s-p-500-futures-jump-oil-drops-on-bin-laden-s-death-yen-silver-decline.html):

Not sure that last one [Silver tumbled as much as 13 percent.] has anything to do with bin Laden.

Some people probably thought he was a Werewolf and stocked up on bullets.

Once Obama is dethroned the sales of hawthorn wood will see a similar drop.

[Professor Yaffle]

People keep describing this place as a mansion. that's not what the reviews of the place say...

“Aside from the complimentary dialysis machine use, easy underground access to Pakistan’s beautiful vast cave system, and free toaster waffles, it’s a pretty big dump. The food wasn’t organic, the wifi was spotty at best, absolutely no cell coverage, (yelp reviews were so wrong on that one) and no one spoke English. To make it worse, the country’s best basketball player, some 6’7″ dude with a turban, gets shot our first night there. And the coffee was cold. We’re so not coming back.”
http://eu.techcrunch.com/2011/05/02/bin-ladens-compound-gets-a-bum-review-on-google-maps/

[NoahFence]

Larry Silverstein:

"I made the decision to pull him"

[Jekyll's Guest]

MSNBC reporting that the lead that led to this moment goes way back.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42853221/ns/world_news-south_and_central_asia/

Hopefully Obama's team is smart enough not to try and use this politically. It could certainly backfire.

That's funny because I seem to remember a certain guy in a flight suit, standing on an aircraft carrier with a big banner...did he get a second term? I forget.

[BenBurch]

That's funny because I seem to remember a certain guy in a flight suit, standing on an aircraft carrier with a big banner...did he get a second term? I forget.

Obama won't have to use it politically. Many others will do this FOR him.

[Professor Yaffle]

Pictures of his dead body?. I've been watching CNN, and searching the net, but nothing so far. I may have missed it of course.

A few places got fooled by an old faked photo:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/may/02/osama-bin-laden-photo-fake

[Dani]

So, what evidence do we have at this point that he's effectively dead?

Press releases. Pictures. Al Queda vowing revenge.

I haven't seen any pictures to be honest. Have they been released? But as evidence, there's also Obama announcing his death. This is enough evidence at this point.

[BibleWelt]

"I don't know where bin Laden is. I have no idea and really don't care. It's not that important. It's not our priority." -G.W. Bush, 3/13/02

Fictitious quote.

See:
http://www.911myths.com/html/ignored.html

[AdMan]

I haven't seen any pictures to be honest. Have they been released?


The Obama administration has photographs of Osama bin Laden’s dead body and officials are debating what to do with them and whether they should be released to the public, officials tell ABC News.

“There’s no doubt it’s him,” says a US official who has seen the pictures and also reminds us that OBL was 6’4”.

The argument for releasing them: to ensure that the public knows and can appreciate that he's dead. There is of course skepticism throughout the world that the US government claim that it killed bin Laden is true.

The argument against releasing the pictures: they’re gruesome. He has a massive head wound above his left eye where he took bullet, with brains and blood visible.


http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2011/05/white-house-officials-debate-releasing-photographs-of-bin-ladens-corpse-1.html

[Emet]

I haven't seen any pictures to be honest. Have they been released? But as evidence, there's also Obama announcing his death. This is enough evidence at this point.

No photos have been released.

The POTUS and his inner circle watched the raid in real time, according to several news sources.

[Walter Wayne]

Is that the right one? It looks different from this one in the NYT:

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2011/05/02/world/02obama_683_cham/02obama_683_cham-custom10.jpg
The ny times picture is from a bit south and east of the google maps link. Nice little compound outside of the town, as opposed in the middle.

[Pardalis]

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2011/05/white-house-officials-debate-releasing-photographs-of-bin-ladens-corpse-1.html

I wonder why they are so skittish all of a sudden. They released the pictures of the dead sons of Hussein, and they were pretty gore.

Oh, right that was the Bush administration...

[Dani]

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2011/05/white-house-officials-debate-releasing-photographs-of-bin-ladens-corpse-1.html

They'll release them. I'm pretty sure of it. One "yes" decision will make up for hundreds of "no".

No photos have been released.

The POTUS and his inner circle watched the raid in real time, according to several news sources.

So it's not only photographed, but the whole raid was filmed?

[IDB87]

Now that OBL is dead - what's next? Who will the next face of Terror be?

[Emet]

So it's not only photographed, but the whole raid was filmed?

I heard it on a national TV news station. Here is an article:

http://www.businessinsider.com/obama-watched-live-video-of-bin-laden-raid-2011-5

I would imagine information will come out in drips, with some things eventually being confirmed; perhaps others will be false.

[JihadJane]

No photos have been released.

The POTUS and his inner circle watched the raid in real time, according to several news sources.

I'm sure Osama will release a video of his death in due course.

[Undesired Walrus]

Now that OBL is dead - what's next? Who will the next face of Terror be?

Old Zawahiri. Al Qaeda's Yuri Andropov.

[Dani]

I heard it on a national TV news station. Here is an article:

http://www.businessinsider.com/obama-watched-live-video-of-bin-laden-raid-2011-5

I would imagine information will come out in drips, with some things eventually being confirmed; perhaps others will be false.

Thanks. I think it's quite plausible. I also doubt they'll willingly release it.

[Undesired Walrus]

I wonder why they are so skittish all of a sudden. They released the pictures of the dead sons of Hussein, and they were pretty gore.

Oh, right that was the Bush administration...

Wasn't it against the Geneva convention or something?

[JihadJane]

Why do you call yourself Jihad Jane? At least Calamity Jane was loveable.

To test people's level of credulity/skepticism.

What makes you think I'm not lovable?

[Pardalis]

Don't feed the troll.

[Skeptical Greg]

I'm sure Osama will release a video of his death in due course.I'm sure President Barack Hussein Obama, will do nothing ( officially ) of a sort...

[Pacal]

...Bin Laden is dead.

To quote Bette Davis with a modification:

My mother always told me to only speak good of the dead.

Bin Laden is dead ... good!

[Emet]

Wasn't it against the Geneva convention or something?

The best I could find was this bit on the Wiki page:

The U.S. Administration released graphic pictures of the brothers' bodies. When criticized, the U.S. military's response was to point out that these men were no ordinary combatants and to express hope that confirmation of the deaths would bring closure to the Iraqi people.[18]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uday_Hussein#Death

[Professor Yaffle]

I love that someone twittered the whole thing:

http://www.thejournal.ie/twitter-user-inadvertently-live-blogs-attack-on-bin-laden-129747-May2011/?utm_source=shortlink#slide-slideshow1

[Skeptic]

I think the world should condemn this illegal assassination, in a foreign country not involved in the conflict, of this man. A clear breach of international law, such assassinations. What they should have done is arrested and charged him. Besides, it doesn't make America any safer, right? They're just murderers. Besides, look at the innocent victims killed with him!

Oh wait -- that's what the world went crazy about when the Mosaad assassinated a chief Hamas operative a year ago (or whenever Israel fights with Hamas and hits human shields, just like the woman the SEALs killed was). But of course the rules are different for Jews.

[Pardalis]

I love that someone twittered the whole thing:

http://www.thejournal.ie/twitter-user-inadvertently-live-blogs-attack-on-bin-laden-129747-May2011/?utm_source=shortlink#slide-slideshow1
That guy must be pissed he came so close to getting his hands on 25 million dollars.

[Emet]

White House holding press conference now.

[BenBurch]

I think the world should condemn this illegal assassination, in a foreign country not involved in the conflict, of this man. A clear breach of international law, such assassinations. What they should have done is arrested and charged him. Besides, it doesn't make America any safer, right? They're just murderers. Besides, look at the innocent victims killed with him!

Oh wait -- that's what the world went crazy about when the Mosaad assassinated a chief Hamas operative a year ago (or whenever Israel fights with Hamas and hits human shields, just like the woman the SEALs killed was). But of course the rules are different for Jews.

Way to utterly trash your credibility, man.

[Skeptic]

Sure, sure.

[ddt]

I think the world should condemn this illegal assassination, in a foreign country not involved in the conflict, of this man. A clear breach of international law, such assassinations. What they should have done is arrested and charged him. Besides, it doesn't make America any safer, right? They're just murderers. Besides, look at the innocent victims killed with him!

Oh wait -- that's what the world went crazy about when the Mosaad assassinated a chief Hamas operative a year ago (or whenever Israel fights with Hamas and hits human shields, just like the woman the SEALs killed was). But of course the rules are different for Jews.

Did the Navy SEALs use forged passports? :rolleyes:

[IDB87]

Old Zawahiri. Al Qaeda's Yuri Andropov.

Old is certainly right.

Is that all they can conjure up - tired old men?

Besides, I thought Zawahiri wasn't really liked throughout AQ?

[Captain_Swoop]

You know nothing of Marcel Marceau's work.
This comment is just ignorant.

He obviously does know of Marcel Marceau's work which is why he included him.

[Ausmerican]

I think the world should condemn this illegal assassination, in a foreign country not involved in the conflict, of this man. A clear breach of international law, such assassinations. What they should have done is arrested and charged him. Besides, it doesn't make America any safer, right? They're just murderers. Besides, look at the innocent victims killed with him!

Oh wait -- that's what the world went crazy about when the Mosaad assassinated a chief Hamas operative a year ago (or whenever Israel fights with Hamas and hits human shields, just like the woman the SEALs killed was). But of course the rules are different for Jews.

Did the Navy SEALs use forged passports? :rolleyes:

Forged passports of real people whose family, friends, and neighbors could have paid in retribution if things went bad?

[Piscivore]

Old is certainly right.

Is that all they can conjure up - tired old men?

Who do you think the conservatives usually are?

[Undesired Walrus]

I think the world should condemn this illegal assassination, in a foreign country not involved in the conflict, of this man. A clear breach of international law, such assassinations. What they should have done is arrested and charged him. Besides, it doesn't make America any safer, right? They're just murderers. Besides, look at the innocent victims killed with him!

Oh wait -- that's what the world went crazy about when the Mosaad assassinated a chief Hamas operative a year ago (or whenever Israel fights with Hamas and hits human shields, just like the woman the SEALs killed was). But of course the rules are different for Jews.

Who are you talking to?

[Undesired Walrus]

Old is certainly right.

Is that all they can conjure up - tired old men?

Besides, I thought Zawahiri wasn't really liked throughout AQ?

Ramzi bin al-Shibh was allegedly for a long time the man Bin Laden wanted to succeed him, but he's in GITMO these days.

[Piscivore]

Ramzi bin al-Shibh was allegedly for a long time the man Bin Laden wanted to succeed him, but he's in GITMO these days.

I wonder if those guys are getting to see the pics.

[Skeptic]

As opposed to the killing of a woman who was there as a "human shield", as the Navy SEALS did? Isn't this "unjudicial execution" -- of Osama and of her? Using forged passports is worse? And lets imagine the SEALs did for some reason use forged passports -- or that he was killed by CIA agents using them. Would there be outrage?

I think we all know the answer. There would be none, and there shouldn't be. If there is any moral responsibility for the death of this woman, it lies with Osama for deliberately using her as a "human shield" in the first place. And if forged passports are used to get to him, well, that's a minor issue compared to the need to get him in the first place.

But when it comes to Israel... things are different.

[geni]

Old is certainly right.

Is that all they can conjure up - tired old men?

50s is pretty common for higher level leaders. The actual lower level on the ground leaders will be 20s 30s.

French resistance leaders were largely in their 40s. Warsaw Uprising leaders were in their 50s. David Petraeus is in his late 50s.


Besides, I thought Zawahiri wasn't really liked throughout AQ?

It's unclear if there is much in the way of a centeral al-qaeda organisation left so its not clear if that question is meaningful at this point.

[Undesired Walrus]

And if forged passports are used to get to him, well, that's a minor issue compared to the need to get him in the first place.



But by all accounts they weren't, and there the comparison ends.

[commandlinegamer]

Now that OBL is dead - what's next? Who will the next face of Terror be?

Fu Manchu. I hear his stock of elixir vitae is once again running low...

[Pardalis]

Did the Navy SEALs use forged passports? :rolleyes:

I doubt Navy Seals use their passports at all.

[Piscivore]

I doubt Navy Seals use their passports at all.

"Purpose of visit?"
"Well, technically, it's business, but we're going to enjoy this."

[Jekyll's Guest]

now that obl is dead - what's next? Who will the next face of terror be?

22035

[IDB87]

22035

Kill it with fire....









After I ...uh...interrogate it.



:boxedin:

[Jekyll's Guest]

According to homeopathy, does that not make the oceans terrorists?

Not to mention the ocean is VERY big, so he's been diluted to awesome potency.

[Bob Blaylock]

Uncalled for.



Erm...Where is the link to that? Why didn't that pack of drongos go get him right then?



No, the Shrub, Rummy and that drooling nosferatu from Wyoming deserve the back of somebody's hand for screwing up the war.

Remember when the French refused to go into Afghanistan weith us and all the right wingnuts were saying that going to war without the French was like going hunting without an accordian and high-fiving each other for being so clever?

And then that useless drongo from Texas started grabbing his crotch and announcing that he was coming to get Osama. (Snarf! Drool!) WE'RE COMING TO GET YOU! Cue the US Military Academy marching band. Kind of reminded me of Johnny Horton's song about the Battle of New Orleans.



Ermmmmm...Dude?....Karzai is the drongo that our drongo installed as president of Afghanistan.

Y'all make this too easy sometimes.


They're going to get you, Lefty!


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/06/Bronzed_Drongo_I_IMG_1677.jpg/100px-Bronzed_Drongo_I_IMG_1677.jpghttp://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b1/Bronzed_Drongo_I_54.jpg/100px-Bronzed_Drongo_I_54.jpghttp://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4e/Thimindu_White_belied_Drongo_1.JPG/100px-Thimindu_White_belied_Drongo_1.JPG

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/84/Dicrurus_adsimilis2.jpg/100px-Dicrurus_adsimilis2.jpghttp://forums.randi.org/customavatars/avatar18157_2.gifhttp://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8e/Ashy_Drongo_I_IMG_8164.jpg/100px-Ashy_Drongo_I_IMG_8164.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c8/Mats_Carnmarker_-_African_Drongo.jpg/100px-Mats_Carnmarker_-_African_Drongo.jpghttp://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4d/Dicrurus_Forficatus_Crested_Drongo_Kirindy_Madagas car.jpg/100px-Dicrurus_Forficatus_Crested_Drongo_Kirindy_Madagas car.jpghttp://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cf/Dicrurus_hottentottus-20030823.jpg/100px-Dicrurus_hottentottus-20030823.jpg

[Skeptic Ginger]

I have no idea whether the photo is real. ....It's not unless someone has invented time travel. The photo is not new.

Never mind, I forgot there'd be many pages added since I signed off last night.

They are showing a video of the death scene on CNN. Pretty bloody. I only caught it out of the corner of my eye so I don't know how clear the view of Bin Laden was. The dead woman is clear.

[EventHorizon]

It's not unless someone has invented time travel.

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/177674dbf05cf29a8f.jpg


Why else do you think Libya is a mess right now. We had to go get more plutonium to power the flux capacitor.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Here's a link to the video. (http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/showtracker/2011/05/abc-news-releases-video-mansion-osama-bin-laden-killed.html?cid=6a00d8341c630a53ef01543213f32e970c )

It was made by ABC today. It's not the video I saw just now on CNN that showed a woman's body.

OK, my bad. I've looked at it a couple times and I think what clearly looked like a woman's body was just my brain misinterpreting the bloody carpet.

[BenBurch]

Fu Manchu. I hear his stock of elixir vitae is once again running low...

Hide all the green-eyed girls.

[AlaskaBushPilot]

This lays bare the idiocy of Bush the Stupid's massive war to overthrow the Taliban government of Afghanistan, which had far less control over its country than Pakistan, instead of zeroing in on Bin Laden.

I opposed that war for the reasons that have been proven out in the last ten years. Bush actually disbanded the CIA unit hunting Bin Laden in 2006, and furthermore it was never a priority in the first place. Instead he prosecuted the greatest strategic disasters in US History (Afghanistan and Iraq), still ongoing, with trillions of dollars and millions dead, wounded, displaced, impoverished...to seek this US world empire that is the root cause of hatred towards the US in the first place.

Obama re-activated the unit in 2009 and it didn't really take all that long to find him.

[BenBurch]

More information; http://www.npr.org/2011/05/02/135926537/new-details-emerge-about-killing-of-bin-laden?ft=1&f=1001

[BenBurch]

Interesting. A possibly terror-related event is happening right now in my town. Just got word that an envelope containing white powder was opened in the Appellate Court building here, massive fire response with decontamination stations set up.

Probably too early to be a reaction, but...

ETA: http://couriernews.suntimes.com/news/5145760-418/mysterious-powder-at-appellate-courthouse.html

It was mailed and not a courier envelope, so as the article says, likely unrelated.

[MattusMaximus]

No photos have been released.

The POTUS and his inner circle watched the raid in real time, according to several news sources.

Wow, imagine what it would have been like to have been in that room :eye-poppi

[Jekyll's Guest]

Interesting. A possibly terror-related event is happening right now in my town. Just got word that an envelope containing white powder was opened in the Appellate Court building here, massive fire response with decontamination stations set up.

Probably too early to be a reaction, but...

If the envelope was addressed to a Mr. Pete Doherty I think I might have an answer to the mystery.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Fictitious quote.

See:
http://www.911myths.com/html/ignored.htmlCare to summarize that Bush apology of yours?

Bush made the comment, ""I don't know where bin Laden is. I have no idea and really don't care. It's not that important. It's not our priority."
"I am truly not that concerned about him."
G.W. Bush.

We all saw it for ourselves. Your apologetics web site claims it was out of context. I fail to see it was out of context given how the web site explains it.

[LTC8K6]

Nancy Pelosi, press conference, September 7, 2006:

[E]ven if [Osama bin Laden] is caught tomorrow, it is five years too late. He has done more damage the longer he has been out there. But, in fact, the damage that he has done ... is done. And even to capture him now I don't think makes us any safer.

Nancy Pelosi, earlier today:

The death of Osama bin Laden marks the most significant development in our fight against al-Qaida. ... I salute President Obama, his national security team, Director Panetta, our men and women in the intelligence community and military, and other nations who supported this effort for their leadership in achieving this major accomplishment. ... [T]he death of Osama bin Laden is historic....

[Skeptic Ginger]

No photos have been released.

The POTUS and his inner circle watched the raid in real time, according to several news sources.
"followed" in real time. Brennan made a point of refusing to say if that was video, audio or something else.

[BenBurch]

Wow, imagine what it would have been like to have been in that room :eye-poppi

I would have let you cut off my pinkie finger with shears to get to watch THAT.

[Jekyll's Guest]

Wow, imagine what it would have been like to have been in that room :eye-poppi

Obama was in the can during this bit.

22036

[Hercules Rockefeller]

Nancy Pelosi, press conference, September 7, 2006:

[E]ven if [Osama bin Laden] is caught tomorrow, it is five years too late. He has done more damage the longer he has been out there. But, in fact, the damage that he has done ... is done. And even to capture him now I don't think makes us any safer.

Nancy Pelosi, earlier today:

The death of Osama bin Laden marks the most significant development in our fight against al-Qaida. ... I salute President Obama, his national security team, Director Panetta, our men and women in the intelligence community and military, and other nations who supported this effort for their leadership in achieving this major accomplishment. ... [T]he death of Osama bin Laden is historic....

What the...I've never...:eek:








:rolleyes:

[Skeptic Ginger]

I love that someone twittered the whole thing:

http://www.thejournal.ie/twitter-user-inadvertently-live-blogs-attack-on-bin-laden-129747-May2011/?utm_source=shortlink#slide-slideshow1

That's priceless. :D

[One Skunk Todd]

Not to mention the ocean is VERY big, so he's been diluted to awesome potency.

I snorted and dribbled on myself. Well done.

[Skeptic Ginger]

As opposed to the killing of a woman who was there as a "human shield", as the Navy SEALS did? Isn't this "unjudicial execution" -- of Osama and of her? Using forged passports is worse? And lets imagine the SEALs did for some reason use forged passports -- or that he was killed by CIA agents using them. Would there be outrage?

I think we all know the answer. There would be none, and there shouldn't be. If there is any moral responsibility for the death of this woman, it lies with Osama for deliberately using her as a "human shield" in the first place. And if forged passports are used to get to him, well, that's a minor issue compared to the need to get him in the first place.

But when it comes to Israel... things are different.Take it to another thread, Skeptic. To compare this event to the tit for tat that's been going on between Israel and the Palestinians for half a century is beyond ludicrous.

[dtugg]

Care to summarize that Bush apology of yours?

Bush made the comment, ""I don't know where bin Laden is. I have no idea and really don't care. It's not that important. It's not our priority."
"I am truly not that concerned about him."
G.W. Bush.

We all saw it for ourselves. Your apologetics web site claims it was out of context. I fail to see it was out of context given how the web site explains it.

Did you even read it? According the website, he only said the last sentence, which was out of context. The others were made up. The link to the transcript of the press conference is gone but MikeW (he's a member here) is an honest guy and I don't doubt him for second.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Did you even read it? According the website, he only said the last sentence, which was out of context. The others were made up. The link to the transcript of the press conference is gone but MikeW (he's a member here) is an honest guy and I don't doubt him for second.I read it. Bush made the statement I cited. He was recorded. We all saw it.

I tried to figure out from the incoherent drivel what made it "out of context". They rambled on and on with their idea of what made the statement out of context.

Quote the whole thing in one piece if you want to show something is out of context. There's no need to ramble out some bizarre excuse for the comment.
4PGmnz5Ow-oHere's the actual record IN CONTEXT. I fail to see that the apology is valid. Bush dismisses his failure to get Bin Laden by claiming Bin Laden is no longer powerful. There was no evidence that was the case, there still isn't.

Yes, the often played clip is the worst thing Bush says in that interview. But the overall comment is typical Bush, pretending he was a success.

[BeAChooser]

http://news.bostonherald.com/news/us_politics/view/20110502first_strands_on_bin_laden_gathered_in_cia _prison/


May 2, 2011

WASHINGTON — Officials say CIA interrogators in secret overseas prisons developed the first strands of information that ultimately led to the killing of Osama bin Laden.

Current and former U.S. officials say that Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the mastermind of the Sept. 11, 2001 terrorist attacks, provided the nom de guerre of one of bin Laden’s most trusted aides. The CIA got similar information from Mohammed’s successor, Abu Faraj al-Libi. Both were subjected to harsh interrogation tactics inside CIA prisons in Poland and Romania.


Just think of what we could have learned if we could have captured Bin Laden and been allowed to waterboard HIM. As is, I bet al-Qaeda is scrambling because they can't really know what we found in the compound at this time. Reportedly, we walked away with hard drives and volumes of other materials. They need to act quickly so they can capitalize on this intelligence before al-Qaeda can make many changes. :D

[Skeptic Ginger]

Nancy Pelosi, press conference, September 7, 2006:

[E]ven if [Osama bin Laden] is caught tomorrow, it is five years too late. He has done more damage the longer he has been out there. But, in fact, the damage that he has done ... is done. And even to capture him now I don't think makes us any safer.

Nancy Pelosi, earlier today:

The death of Osama bin Laden marks the most significant development in our fight against al-Qaida. ... I salute President Obama, his national security team, Director Panetta, our men and women in the intelligence community and military, and other nations who supported this effort for their leadership in achieving this major accomplishment. ... [T]he death of Osama bin Laden is historic....Back in 06, Bin Laden's death may not have made us safer. This is 2011. A whole lot has changed since then. The Iraq war has wound down. The military actions in Afghanistan and Pakistan have become more precise. The intelligence is superior as evidenced by this operation.

[BibleWelt]

Care to summarize that Bush apology of yours?

Bush made the comment, ""I don't know where bin Laden is. I have no idea and really don't care. It's not that important. It's not our priority."
"I am truly not that concerned about him."
G.W. Bush.

We all saw it for ourselves. Your apologetics web site claims it was out of context. I fail to see it was out of context given how the web site explains it.

I never said it was out of context. I said it is a "(f)ictitious quote". If I am incorrect I will happily admit it - I'm here to learn. I am having difficulty finding the transcript on whitehouse.gov. Since we all saw it for ourselves maybe you can link to a video for me? Please?

I just watched this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4PGmnz5Ow-o

and Bush never says these words.

Looking here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x2070268

or here:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/918437/posts

I still don't see Bush as having actually made the statement attributed to him. If I am wrong please help set me straight.

[dtugg]

I read it. Bush made the statement I cited. He was recorded. We all saw it.

I tried to figure out from the incoherent drivel what made it "out of context". They rambled on and on with their idea of what made the statement out of context.

Quote the whole thing in one piece if you want to show something is out of context. There's no need to ramble out some bizarre excuse for the comment.
4PGmnz5Ow-oHere's the actual record IN CONTEXT. I fail to see that the apology is valid. Bush dismisses his failure to get Bin Laden by claiming Bin Laden is no longer powerful. There was no evidence that was the case, there still isn't.

Yes, the often played clip is the worst thing Bush says in that interview. But the overall comment is typical Bush, pretending he was a success.

You fail. That video doesn't show him making those comments. Did you even watch it?

[Skeptic Ginger]

http://news.bostonherald.com/news/us_politics/view/20110502first_strands_on_bin_laden_gathered_in_cia _prison/
...This is still just rumor. It is not clear if the prisoners provided the information only after being tortured or not. Some of the info we got from KSM came before he was tortured.

I'm going to wait for the facts to come out here before touting the role torture played in yesterday's events.

[Ausmerican]

Did you even read it? According the website, he only said the last sentence, which was out of context. The others were made up. The link to the transcript of the press conference is gone but MikeW (he's a member here) is an honest guy and I don't doubt him for second.

Actually if you read it he says "I dont know where he (bin Laden) is." Twice in two consecutive answers. And he follows it with..
"You know, I just don't spend that much time on him, Kelly, to be honest with you."
And...
"I truly am not that concerned about him."

Which is, any way you read it, politically insensitive to the 9/11 survivors and families to say the least.

[Polaris]

The man's dead. Who really up and cares what happens to the meat really... The United States does need to maintain its friendships and if not actual friendships, 'you scratch my back, I scratch yours' relationships as they can get critical in the dark of black ops.

When we're respecting the religious wishes of a monster who killed because of that same religion, I care what happens to its mortal remains. They should be desecrated.

But I'm happy that it wound up as fish bait after all, even if it wasn't ground up first.

I'm also not convinced that Pakistan is anything remotely approaching a "friend" to the US.

[Emet]

"followed" in real time. Brennan made a point of refusing to say if that was video, audio or something else.

I know. I posted my comment from a news story on the tube before the press conference, which I also saw.

We're on the same page. ;) :)

[Piscivore]

But I'm happy that it wound up as fish bait after all,
I'm not! :(

[Skeptic Ginger]

You fail. That video doesn't show him making those comments. Did you even watch it?I watched it. And I watched Bush deny it here:JRY_BOYeySc&feature=related

Here's the "long version" of the press conference.
FPTwsMEiI0g&feature=watch_response

So the argument made here is that the words are not an exact quote. But the comments are the same. There is no smoking gun in the claim the comments are out of context. Bush's comments are exactly what they sound like, he's dismissing Bin Laden as unimportant rather than admitting Bush has failed to get him.

[Skeptic Ginger]

I know. I posted my comment from a news story on the tube before the press conference, which I also saw.

We're on the same page. ;) :)Given that the military has videoed these events before for propaganda benefit, I bet there is a video and we will see it eventually.

[dtugg]

I watched it. And I watched Bush deny it here:JRY_BOYeySc&feature=related

Here's the "long version" of the press conference.
FPTwsMEiI0g&feature=watch_response

So the argument made here is that the words are not an exact quote. But the comments are the same. There is no smoking gun in the claim the comments are out of context. Bush's comments are exactly what they sound like, he's dismissing Bin Laden as unimportant rather than admitting Bush has failed to get him.

So it is correct that the quote was falsified. Anyway, it sounds to me like he is saying that it is more important to go after al Qaeda and the Taliban as a whole rather than focus on bin Laden. Which is true.

[Pardalis]

Here's the "long version" of the press conference.
FPTwsMEiI0g&feature=watch_response

I wonder what he meant by "if he is hiding at all", now that we know he was hiding in plain sight.

[BibleWelt]

I watched it. And I watched Bush deny it here:JRY_BOYeySc&feature=related

Here's the "long version" of the press conference.
FPTwsMEiI0g&feature=watch_response

So the argument made here is that the words are not an exact quote. But the comments are the same. There is no smoking gun in the claim the comments are out of context. Bush's comments are exactly what they sound like, he's dismissing Bin Laden as unimportant rather than admitting Bush has failed to get him.

OK - this is a joke, right?
Drongo Shrub did not say "I don't know where bin Laden is. I have no idea and really don't care. It's not that important. It's not our priority" in the video you have linked to.

It is important - to me - to know whether he said "Dad" or "Daddy". To know whether the story was titled "The Pet Goat" or "My Pet Goat". Maybe we're just not on the same page.

[Skeptic Ginger]

I never said it was out of context. I said it is a "(f)ictitious quote". If I am incorrect I will happily admit it - I'm here to learn. I am having difficulty finding the transcript on whitehouse.gov. Since we all saw it for ourselves maybe you can link to a video for me? Please?

I just watched this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4PGmnz5Ow-o

and Bush never says these words.

Looking here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x2070268

or here:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/918437/posts

I still don't see Bush as having actually made the statement attributed to him. If I am wrong please help set me straight.Your implication is that the out of context misstated words distort what is being claimed that Bush said.

If Bush said, "I don't care if they find Bin Laden", and the quote is claimed to be, "I'm not concerned about Bin Laden", or vice versa, why waste your time arguing such a trivial difference?

If Bush had said, "we are working hard to get Bin Laden but in the meantime I think we are keeping him from being effective", and someone made that into a claim Bush said he didn't care about Bin Laden, that would have merit.

You are essentially arguing a minor misquote is important when that does not in any way change the meaning of what Bush said. Bush's comments in that interview were atrocious and the differences from what was said and what was claimed to have been said are so minor as to not change what one hears listening to the actual video.


So what is your point? Bush never said those exact words but he said something very close?

Or are you trying to claim, as your web link implied in it's ridiculously contorted apology, that Bush really said something completely different which was being distorted by the quote attributed to him?

[Emet]

Former President George W. Bush

"Earlier this evening, President Obama called to inform me that American forces killed Osama bin Laden, the leader of the al-Qaida network that attacked America on September 11, 2001. I congratulated him and the men and women of our military and intelligence communities who devoted their lives to this mission. They have our everlasting gratitude. This momentous achievement marks a victory for America, for people who seek peace around the world, and for all those who lost loved ones on September 11, 2001. The fight against terror goes on, but tonight America has sent an unmistakable message: No matter how long it takes, justice will be done."

Former Vice President Dick Cheney

The ex-Bush official tells NBC News (on this page) : "It's tremendous news, it really is a great day for an awful lot of people who worked very, very hard for a long time. Think about the bravery and courage of the men who carried out the operation."
"It's also a good day for the administration. President Obama and his national security team acted on the intelligence when it came in, and they deserve a lot of credit too."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42853022/ns/world_news-south_and_central_asia/

[Skeptic Ginger]

....
It is important - to me - to know whether he said "Dad" or "Daddy". To know whether the story was titled "The Pet Goat" or "My Pet Goat". Maybe we're just not on the same page.If these differences matter to you, you would be correct, we are not on the same page.

[AlaskaBushPilot]

I disagree completely with it being more important to "go after" the Taliban instead of the perpetrator of attacks upon us.

As a practical matter it is an incoherent statement - "going after" the Taliban, whatever that means. Endless counterproductive war in the graveyard of empires, while our infrastructure, economy, and educational system are destroyed and home. Bill of rights trampled. Overthrowing the Taliban government of Afghanistan was tragically stupid.

I can't stand Obama and he's worse than Bush in some ways. But in this narrow incident he was not so magnificently stupid as Bush.

A few helicopters and a handful of men were involved in this. Not a massive army overthrowing Pakistan's government.

[Pardalis]

If Bush said, "I don't care if they find Bin Laden", and the quote is claimed to be, "I'm not concerned about Bin Laden", or vice versa, why waste your time arguing such a trivial difference?

I'm with Skeptigirl on this one, I don't see much difference either.

Anyway, Obama showed he can talk the talk and walk the walk, while Bush 43 failed the American people by not pursuing OBL to the end.

[dtugg]

I disagree completely with it being more important to "go after" the Taliban instead of the perpetrator of attacks upon us.

As a practical matter it is an incoherent statement - "going after" the Taliban, whatever that means. Endless counterproductive war in the graveyard of empires, while our infrastructure, economy, and educational system are destroyed and home. Bill of rights trampled. Overthrowing the Taliban government of Afghanistan was tragically stupid.

I can't stand Obama and he's worse than Bush in some ways. But in this narrow incident he was not so magnificently stupid as Bush.

A few helicopters and a handful of men were involved in this. Not a massive army overthrowing Pakistan's government.

So you think governments should be able host terrorists that kill thousands of Americans and stay in power. Sorry that's dumb. It sends the message that we will tolerate such governments.

[Jekyll's Guest]

Former Vice President Dick Cheney

The ex-Bush official tells NBC News (on this page) : "It's tremendous news, it really is a great day for an awful lot of people who worked very, very hard for a long time. Think about the bravery and courage of the men who carried out the operation."
"It's also a good day for the administration. President Obama and his national security team acted on the intelligence when it came in, and they deserve a lot of credit too."

Huzzah for incredibly backhanded compliments.

"Good job being in to answer the phone when the end of all our great and important work came to fruition."

[Pardalis]

A few helicopters and a handful of men were involved in this. Not a massive army overthrowing Pakistan's government.

You might have a point if the Taliban and the Pakistani government were comparable.

Pakistan had to be involved or at least willing to look the other way when the commando team took OBL, the illegitimate Taliban government was extremely hostile, and would never have permitted such a strike, therefore it had to be removed and invaded.

[Ziggurat]

Anyway, Obama showed he can talk the talk and walk the walk, while Bush 43 failed the American people by not pursuing OBL to the end.

Obama certainly deserves credit for this, but your accusation that Bush didn't seriously pursue OBL is unfounded. In regards to hunting Al Qaeda, Obama's policies have (to his credit) been largely a continuation of Bush's policies, namely, we go after them and try to kill them. Obama handled this well (hell, I even liked his speech, and I never like his speeches), but the fact that the actionable intel came in during his watch and not earlier (or later) is largely a matter of luck.

[AlaskaBushPilot]

So you think governments should be able host terrorists that kill thousands of Americans and stay in power. Sorry that's dumb. It sends the message that we will tolerate such governments.

The first part is hyperbole that in the first place implicitly pretends the Taliban was knowingly "hosting" someone planning an attack on the USA.

Secondarily they asked for evidence of his guilt, and we told them to **** ***. So instead of doing that and either taking up their offer of extradition or doing what just happened in Pakistan, Bush did what you champion here - a reckless war to overthrow a government.

How's your war in the graveyard of empires going, champ?

Edited, breach of rule 10; please do not curse in your posts or mask such words in an attempt to avoid the auto-censor.

[applecorped]

Wasn't Hitler declared dead on May 1st as well?

[Skeptic Ginger]

OK - this is a joke, right?
Drongo Shrub did not say "I don't know where bin Laden is. I have no idea and really don't care. It's not that important. It's not our priority" in the video you have linked to.

It is important - to me - to know whether he said "Dad" or "Daddy". To know whether the story was titled "The Pet Goat" or "My Pet Goat". Maybe we're just not on the same page.The source of your semantic nit pick (http://www.911myths.com/html/ignored.html) said, Again, they seem to be saying it’s wrong to focus on just one man, however the fight against terrorism continues as before, and Afghanistan (and so presumably al Qaeda) is a particular concern. No evidence of any major policy changes, or softening of attitudes here.

That hasn’t stopped the detractors, though, who also cite these similar Bush quotes:

"I don't know where bin Laden is. I have no idea and really don't care. It's not that important. It's not our priority."

"I am truly not that concerned about him."
G.W. Bush
http://www.50bushflipflops.com/Lecture_Outline/lesson1.html

These sound impressive, until you look at the source. Then you discover that the first quote doesn’t exist, while as with Myers, the second omits a considerable amount of context: [transcript of the video](emphasis mine)

Then they repeat their conclusion:Whatever you think of Bush, it’s plain that “I don't know where bin Laden is. I have no idea and really don't care. It's not that important. It's not our priority” is nothing like an accurate summary of the above press conference. Yet again, the message is not to trust snipped quotes: they can be deeply misleading.

People hear what they want to hear and what they expect to hear. If you are bent on confirming your bias that Bush was a good President, you can ignore all his smirking in that video and stretch the meaning of the comments to be saying what I suggested would have been a reasonable thing to say, "we are working hard to get Bin Laden but in the meantime I think we are keeping him from being effective".

That is not what Bush said. What Bush said, including his smirk and body language when assessing the message, was that he was rationalizing his incompetence with his excuses. It was consistent with the paraphrased quote. You can nit pick that the quote was not identified as paraphrased. That would be legit. But to claim the misquote altered the actual statement, that is not the case.

[AlaskaBushPilot]

You might have a point if the Taliban and the Pakistani government were comparable.

Pakistan had to be involved or at least willing to look the other way when the commando team took OBL, the illegitimate Taliban government was extremely hostile, and would never have permitted such a strike, therefore it had to be removed and invaded.

You mean the Taliban government that offered to extradite him if they were shown evidence of his Guilt?

Afghanistan had far less capacity to stop an operation of this kind by comparison to Pakistan.

[dtugg]

The first part is hyperbole that in the first place implicitly pretends the Taliban was knowingly "hosting" someone planning an attack on the USA.

Secondarily they asked for evidence of his guilt, and we told them to **** ***. So instead of doing that and either taking up their offer of extradition or doing what just happened in Pakistan, Bush did what you champion here - a reckless war to overthrow a government.

How's your war in the graveyard of empires going, champ?

Moderated content edited.

Osama was a wanted terrorist before 9/11. There is no way they didn't know that.

And they offered to try them in their country under their crazy Islamic laws if they we provided evidence. Bush rightly told them to **** off as that was obviously unacceptable.

[Frank Newgent]

New info on where they got the match for bin Laden's DNA.

His goat.

[Pardalis]

Obama certainly deserves credit for this, but your accusation that Bush didn't seriously pursue OBL is unfounded. In regards to hunting Al Qaeda, Obama's policies have (to his credit) been largely a continuation of Bush's policies, namely, we go after them and try to kill them. Obama handled this well (hell, I even liked his speech, and I never like his speeches), but the fact that the actionable intel came in during his watch and not earlier (or later) is largely a matter of luck.

Actually, he re-focused the attention on Afghanistan and OBL, he said himself he asked the CIA chief to make catching OBL his new priority, which is what made this happen. Bush relaxed the attention away from OBL to focus on Iraq.

It is obvious that Iraq was Bush's main goal all along, and that Afghanistan was a necessary distraction, or a rehearsal, and while I agree something had to be done about Hussein one way or another, I can't help to think now that the way he lost interest in OBL and Afghanistan was a failure.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Obama certainly deserves credit for this, but your accusation that Bush didn't seriously pursue OBL is unfounded. In regards to hunting Al Qaeda, Obama's policies have (to his credit) been largely a continuation of Bush's policies, namely, we go after them and try to kill them. Obama handled this well (hell, I even liked his speech, and I never like his speeches), but the fact that the actionable intel came in during his watch and not earlier (or later) is largely a matter of luck.What does the evidence show?

Clinton warned the Bush admin that Osama was a threat. Clinton had wanted to get him but called off at least one attempt because innocent people would have been killed along with Osama. (Remember this was before 9-11 and when the Repugs were criticizing everything Clinton did as a "Wag the Dog" distraction from the Lewinsky case.)

There was the DPB that was ignored by Bush.

There was Tora Bora.

There was the waste of time focusing on Saddam.


Was that just all bad luck? Or bad decisions?

[Pardalis]

You mean the Taliban government that offered to extradite him if they were shown evidence of his Guilt?

That was pure BS. Nobody bought that for a minute. It was merely a stalling tactic.

Afghanistan had far less capacity to stop an operation of this kind by comparison to Pakistan.

But their relation with the AQ network was much more symbiotic, and unequivocal, while the relationship between the ISI and AQ and the Pakistani Taliban seems rather chaotic, and schizophrenic.

[Jekyll's Guest]

Wasn't Hitler declared dead on May 1st as well?

May 1st 1973, Buenos Aires.

[Ziggurat]

There was the DPB that was ignored by Bush.

Oh please. You're drifting into Truther territory. That had basically no actionable intelligence.

There was Tora Bora.

If you think Bush should have micromanaged military operations, you're a fool. And I doubt you even know what we could have done differently in that battle to have caught him..

There was the waste of time focusing on Saddam.

Because we should have been invading Pakistan instead? Is that the idea?

It's kind of sad that you can't be happy about Obama's success without simultaneously blaming Bush for something.

[Ziggurat]

Actually, he re-focused the attention on Afghanistan and OBL, he said himself he asked the CIA chief to make catching OBL his new priority, which is what made this happen.

We have no idea what really "made this happen". And probably won't for years.

[Pardalis]

We have no idea what really "made this happen". And probably won't for years.

Sure, but a change in policy is certainly a major contributing factor.

[BenBurch]

You might have a point if the Taliban and the Pakistani government were comparable.

Pakistan had to be involved or at least willing to look the other way when the commando team took OBL, the illegitimate Taliban government was extremely hostile, and would never have permitted such a strike, therefore it had to be removed and invaded.

I doubt Pakistan ever knew about this until it was in progress.

Our chief problem with Afghanistan and doing the same thing much earlier there is that we had almost nobody "on the ground" there who could give us location information. We could have generated those contacts given time, but Bush would have had to explain why something wasn't being done now. Plus his aides were telling him we could get the job done in short order with a military action.

Then Bush screwed up that military option.

[Ziggurat]

Sure, but a change in policy is certainly a major contributing factor.

You have no evidence that it was. You assume so, because one event occurred after the other, but you have established no causal connection whatsoever.

[AdMan]

Wow, imagine what it would have been like to have been in that room :eye-poppi


http://www.flickr.com/photos/whitehouse/5680724572/in/photostream

[johnny karate]

Obama was the guy in charge and giving orders when it happened. He gets the credit. Period.

If we can blame him for the economy, we can praise him for killing bin Laden.

[Ziggurat]

Obama was the guy in charge and giving orders when it happened. He gets the credit. Period.

Of course he does. Who suggested otherwise?

[Jekyll's Guest]

http://www.flickr.com/photos/whitehouse/5680724572/in/photostream

Am I going nuts, or does the guy in the back (gray hair, blue shirt, looking over a shoulder) look like he was crudely added via Photoshop? It's like a Where's Waldo.

[Ziggurat]

Am I going nuts, or does the guy in the back (gray hair, blue shirt, looking over a shoulder) look like he was crudely added via Photoshop? It's like a Where's Waldo.

I think it's because the lighting in the room is weird. I think there are basically a bunch of spot lights shining straight down, so depending on where you sit, you're either brightly illuminated or in a sort of shadow. I think the spots spread out evenly by the time they hit table-height, but at head level they're still scattered. That screws up the contrast, and makes it look like a photoshop where images with different lighting were composited. That's not the only place in the photo like that, Obama himself seems to stick out strangely.

[johnny karate]

You have no evidence that it was. You assume so, because one event occurred after the other, but you have established no causal connection whatsoever.

Good point. It's just plain silly to think that if someone makes an effort to do something and then actually gets it done that there might be a connection between those two things.

The most likely scenario here is that a couple of Navy SEALs were just strolling through Pakistan when one turned to the other and said "Hey... does that guy look familiar to you?".

[PGH]

Now that you say that Obama and Biden looked photoshopped in too. That's the problem. Photoshop is too damn good these days.

[AdMan]

Am I going nuts, or does the guy in the back (gray hair, blue shirt, looking over a shoulder) look like he was crudely added via Photoshop? It's like a Where's Waldo.


LOL The lighting on him does look different.

Here's the full size version (http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5226/5680724572_ab0f11237a_o.jpg).

[Pardalis]

You have no evidence that it was. You assume so, because one event occurred after the other, but you have established no causal connection whatsoever.

I'm using deduction. One guy is distracted by his Iraq project, freely admits doesn't really care about OBL, and then the new guy comes along, says he cares and will do something about it, and we see results.

I agree it doesn't prove anything, but it sure looks like something somewhere changed and things got done right.

[Ziggurat]

Good point. It's just plain silly to think that if someone makes an effort to do something and then actually gets it done that there might be a connection between those two things.

You have substituted a strawman for my actual argument. Congratulations on torching that strawman.

[johnny karate]

Of course he does. Who suggested otherwise?

You did, when you claimed the killing of bin Laden was "largely a matter of luck". A claim that is not only completely unsubstantiated, but an obvious attempt to poison the well.

[johnny karate]

You have substituted a strawman for my actual argument. Congratulations on torching that strawman.

Hardly. You argued that a causal connection between Obama's efforts to find bin Laden and the achievement of that goal was unfounded. That's the exact position I countered.

[Checkmite]

Wasn't Hitler declared dead on May 1st as well?

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c159/jk_mellifera/bodysn3.jpg

[Ziggurat]

Obama was the guy in charge and giving orders when it happened. He gets the credit. Period.
Of course he does. Who suggested otherwise?
You did, when you claimed the killing of bin Laden was "largely a matter of luck". A claim that is not only completely unsubstantiated, but an obvious attempt to poison the well.
No I didn't. What I said was
the fact that the actionable intel came in during his watch and not earlier (or later) is largely a matter of luck.
Once the intel was obtained, killing him was not a matter of luck, and I never suggested otherwise. In fact, I said exactly the OPPOSITE of what you claimed, in that very same post:
Obama certainly deserves credit for this
Next time you want to lie about what I say, try not making it so obvious.

[Pardalis]

Hardly. You argued that a causal connection between Obama's efforts to find bin Laden and the achievement of that goal was unfounded. That's the exact position I countered.

In Zig's defense, I think he was saying Obama's efforts to kill OBL was in continuation of his predecessor's. He doesn't say Obama's efforts didn't kill OBL, but that if someone else had continued the pursuit, it would have happened anyway, given good intelligence.

I disagree, I think we can clearly see a change in policy between him and his predecessor, and if such a change in focus hadn't occurred, OBL would still be at large and probably for a long time.

ETA: I think Bush dropped the ball on OBL, and Obama picked it right up.

[Ziggurat]

Hardly. You argued that a causal connection between Obama's efforts to find bin Laden and the achievement of that goal was unfounded. That's the exact position I countered.

No I didn't. I claimed that there was no causal connection between any changes in policy (which, oddly enough, are never actually specified in any detail) and the fact that we succeeded now when we hadn't before. Since many of our counterterrorism policies have not changed, it's quite possible that the continuation of those policies led to our success. Obama would deserve credit under such a scenario (and I'd like to remind others once again that johnny lied about what I said in regards to crediting Obama), but that doesn't satisfy those who want to not merely credit Obama with success, but blame Bush as well.

[I Ratant]

Now that you say that Obama and Biden looked photoshopped in too. That's the problem. Photoshop is too damn good these days.
.
It's not "Tourist Guy"... :)

[Pardalis]

No I didn't. I claimed that there was no causal connection between any changes in policy (which, oddly enough, are never actually specified in any detail)

Didn't Obama move some people around in his security agencies recently?

[I Am The Scum]

Am I going nuts, or does the guy in the back (gray hair, blue shirt, looking over a shoulder) look like he was crudely added via Photoshop? It's like a Where's Waldo.

Well Bin Laden was actually in that room with the gang the whole time. They had to cover him up in the photo.

[Morrigan]

The guy with the pastel-blue shirt standing with his arms crossed looks like John Lithgow.

Oh wait, wrong thread (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=206851)... :boxedin:

[Ziggurat]

Didn't Obama move some people around in his security agencies recently?

Why would that have anything to do with it? That notion just doesn't mesh with the information that has been made public so far:

http://washingtonexaminer.com/blogs/beltway-confidential/2011/05/raid-got-bin-laden-was-culmination-years-work-sr-admin-official-s

"Sunday afternoon’s raid by U.S. forces that killed Osama bin Laden was the “culmination of years of careful and highly advanced intelligence work,” senior administration officials said in a conference call"

The description of the chain of events just doesn't match a binary "Bush screwed up, Obama got it right" narrative. Obama got it right, but it took a long time to get right, starting from well before Obama took office.

[dtugg]

Didn't Obama move some people around in his security agencies recently?

Do you mean Penetta (CIA Director) to Secretary of Defense and Petraeus (ISAF/US Afghanistan Forces commander) to CIA Director? Hasn't happened yet.

[Pardalis]

Why would that have anything to do with it? That notion just doesn't mesh with the information that has been made public so far:

http://washingtonexaminer.com/blogs/beltway-confidential/2011/05/raid-got-bin-laden-was-culmination-years-work-sr-admin-official-s

"Sunday afternoon’s raid by U.S. forces that killed Osama bin Laden was the “culmination of years of careful and highly advanced intelligence work,” senior administration officials said in a conference call"

The description of the chain of events just doesn't match a binary "Bush screwed up, Obama got it right" narrative. Obama got it right, but it took a long time to get right, starting from well before Obama took office.

Do you mean Penetta (CIA Director) to Secretary of Defense and Petraeus (ISAF/US Afghanistan Forces commander) to CIA Director? Hasn't happened yet.

But it does show a shift in focus.

It may be kind of a "Russian syndrome" effect, where all the advances in space exploration were achieved by the Russians but since America beat them to the Moon that's what people remember, but in the space race both the US and Russia were aiming at the same thing, not Bush and Obama. There is a clear difference in their goal.

[Tricky]

Giving credit to Obama or Bush is pretty iffy. The CIA got the intel. The Seals pulled the trigger. Now you can argue that the CIA is more efficient since Obama became Prez because of his appointments et. al., but such a claim would be extremely difficult to give definite proof for.

Personally, I have no problem letting Bush share the credit for this. I agreed with him when he sent troops into Afghanistan after 9/11 and I agreed with Obama when he continued the operation. If I fault Bush for anything, it is for drawing down the involvement in Afghanistan to fuel the ill-conceived, ill-executed invasion of Iraq. But at the time, Bush did the smart, but fairly obvious thing, of going after the people who caused the 9/11 attacks. It was an easy decision, and one that was almost universally supported. It was a little harder for Obama to justify continuing the action, what with the memory of 9/11 being more than seven years old, but he did the right thing too.

Right now, I'm really happy. Don't harsh my buzz with all this partisan crap.

[applecorped]

'E's not pinin'! 'E's passed on! This terrorist is no more! He has ceased to be! 'E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker! 'E's fish food! Bereft of life, 'e rests in peace! If you hadn't dropped im in the ocean 'e'd be pushing up the daisies! 'Is metabolic processes are now 'istory! 'E's off the twig! 'E's kicked the bucket, 'e's shuffled off 'is mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisibile!! THIS IS AN EX-TERRORIST!!

[Marcus]

Obama was the guy in charge and giving orders when it happened. He gets the credit. Period.

If we can blame him for the economy, we can praise him for killing bin Laden.
Do you blame him for the economy?

[johnny karate]

No I didn't. What I said was
the fact that the actionable intel came in during his watch and not earlier (or later) is largely a matter of luck.

However you want to split that hair, it's still an unsubstantiated claim that clearly reveals a bias.

Once the intel was obtained, killing him was not a matter of luck, and I never suggested otherwise. In fact, I said exactly the OPPOSITE of what you claimed, in that very same post:
Obama certainly deserves credit for this


Operative word added back in and bolded:
Obama certainly deserves credit for this, but


It's a classic set-up for a backhanded compliment

"Tom is a nice guy, but..."

Next time you want to lie about what I say, try not making it so obvious.

Next time you want to accuse someone of lying, try making sure they actually lied.

My claim was that you suggested Obama not receive credit, not that you stated it. It's a significant distinction.

[dtugg]

But it does show a shift in focus.

Not it doesn't. Gates (current SecDef) is retiring. Obama needs someone to fill his shoes. He thinks the best person is Panetta. Then he needs someone to fill Panetta's shoes. He thinks that is Petraeus . These seem like sound choices to me. But it doesn't signal any change in focus.

[Polaris]

I'm not! :(

Er....apologies, that was insensitive of me. :D

[Jack by the hedge]

I'm a bit late to this party but I'd like to offer my heartiest congratulations to all the intelligence and military personnel who contributed to this operation and, speaking from the UK, also particularly to thank them for waiting until after the Royal Wedding. (If it had been before, we'd all have been crapping ourselves over the likelihood of a quick-and-dirty reprisal.)

[MattusMaximus]

Personally, I would be amazed if bin Laden didn't go down without a fight. fighting.

Wow, grammar fail :o

[WildCat]

ETA: I think Bush dropped the ball on OBL, and Obama picked it right up.
I think Bush wuld have been reluctant to go into Pakistan without their permission, even if he had the same intel Obama had. And I think once Pakistan was told, OBL would be tipped off. Obama was smart not to tell Pakistan until Seal Team 6 was out of there.

I have strong suspicions high ranking Pakistani authorities were involved in protecting OBL.

[MattusMaximus]

'E's not pinin'! 'E's passed on! This terrorist is no more! He has ceased to be! 'E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker! 'E's fish food! Bereft of life, 'e rests in peace! If you hadn't dropped im in the ocean 'e'd be pushing up the daisies! 'Is metabolic processes are now 'istory! 'E's off the twig! 'E's kicked the bucket, 'e's shuffled off 'is mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisibile!! THIS IS AN EX-TERRORIST!!

Lulz :D

[MattusMaximus]

Right now, I'm really happy. Don't harsh my buzz with all this partisan crap.

Seconded.

[Travis]

I see that torture apologists are out in force over this.

[dtugg]

I see that torture apologists are out in force over this.

If toruture was used to gain intel that eventually tracked him down, would it have been worth it?

[Jekyll's Guest]

If toruture was used to gain intel that eventually tracked him down, would it have been worth it?

It is my opinion that someone who truly supported the constitution and what it stands for would have to say no.

Shooting a washed up old terrorist in bed is not worth abandoning your country's essential principals, no matter how cathartic it may be.

[dtugg]

It is my opinion that someone who truly supported the constitution and what it stands for would have to say no.

Shooting a washed up old terrorist in bed is not worth abandoning your country's essential principals, no matter how cathartic it may be.

I don't think that the consitution should apply to foreign nationals captured outside of the country.

[WildCat]

Giving credit to Obama or Bush is pretty iffy. The CIA got the intel. The Seals pulled the trigger. Now you can argue that the CIA is more efficient since Obama became Prez because of his appointments et. al., but such a claim would be extremely difficult to give definite proof for.

Personally, I have no problem letting Bush share the credit for this. I agreed with him when he sent troops into Afghanistan after 9/11 and I agreed with Obama when he continued the operation. If I fault Bush for anything, it is for drawing down the involvement in Afghanistan to fuel the ill-conceived, ill-executed invasion of Iraq. But at the time, Bush did the smart, but fairly obvious thing, of going after the people who caused the 9/11 attacks. It was an easy decision, and one that was almost universally supported. It was a little harder for Obama to justify continuing the action, what with the memory of 9/11 being more than seven years old, but he did the right thing too.

Right now, I'm really happy. Don't harsh my buzz with all this partisan crap.
I think you have to give them both credit. I've been hearing that they found OBL by tracking the movements of a known courier for OBL. And from what radio reports were saying today the name of the courier was revealed by a Gitmo detainee questioned while Bush was in power. It took a long time (maybe a year or more) after finding out the name to finding the actual person, who was under surveillance for years before they were able to figure out OBL might be in that compound. Then it took months to train the SEAL team, who trained in a special-built replica of the compound.

Did the Gitmo detainee reveal the name of the courier because of "enhanced interrogation" techniques under Bush? Maybe.

Would Bush have had the cojones to send a SEAL team into Pakistan without telling the Pakistani government, as Obama did? Maybe not.

eta: I wonder if that Gitmo detainee had the initials "KSM"...

[Dorian Gray]

I am sure it is not always reliable but do you honestly believe that nobody has ever given up any useful information under torture?Sure they have.... but since it's unreliable, it's useless and amounts to false information or no information.

[BeAChooser]

For anyone who thinks that the Pakistani government … or at least it's military leadership … didn't know the inhabitants of Osama's compound, notice the structure labeled "PMA Kakul" next door to Osama's compound in this:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/53039952@N05/5680415946/lightbox/

It's just 100 yards away. That is the Pakistan Military Academy. It provides training to the officers of the Pakistan Army. Don't for one minute think Pakistan's military and likely it's top leadership didn't know where Osama was staying the last 5 years. Someone knew, and now we should find exactly who and deal with them in an expeditious manner.

[Jekyll's Guest]

I don't think that the consitution should apply to foreign nationals captured outside of the country.

Who are then housed on sovereign American land and mistreated by Americans.

We can either be a nation of laws and lofty ideals or we can be bullies that pick and choose when to do terrible things for the sake of expediency.


Let me ask you 2 related question:

We prosecuted and executed Japanese officers who tortured allied soldiers during the war.

1) Were we wrong to do that?
2) If not, then are our own troops guilty of similar crimes?

[dafydd]

To test people's level of credulity/skepticism.

What makes you think I'm not lovable?

Jihad.

[dtugg]

Sure they have.... but since it's unreliable, it's useless and amounts to false information or no information.

Unless it results in useful information. I won't pretend that I know this was the case here. But you don't either.

[Dorian Gray]

Why would that have anything to do with it? That notion just doesn't mesh with the information that has been made public so far:

http://washingtonexaminer.com/blogs/beltway-confidential/2011/05/raid-got-bin-laden-was-culmination-years-work-sr-admin-official-s

"Sunday afternoon’s raid by U.S. forces that killed Osama bin Laden was the “culmination of years of careful and highly advanced intelligence work,” senior administration officials said in a conference call"

The description of the chain of events just doesn't match a binary "Bush screwed up, Obama got it right" narrative. Obama got it right, but it took a long time to get right, starting from well before Obama took office.
Since Obama has been president, there has not been a single terrorist attack on US soil, plus he killed Osama bin Laden.

Mission Accomplished! :D

[BeAChooser]

This is still just rumor.

That looks like it might be more that a "rumor". What I quoted was from the Associated Press, citing US officials.

[mummymonkey]

Hitchens on Pakistan.

the uniformed and anonymous patrons of that sheltered Abbottabad compound are still very much with us, and Obama's speech will be entirely worthless if he expects us to go on arming and financing the very people who made this trackdown into such a needlessly long, arduous and costly one.

http://www.slate.com/id/2292687/

[Skeptic Ginger]

That looks like it might be more that a "rumor". What I quoted was from the Associated Press, citing US officials.Surprise surprise, the source of this claim is none other than torture advocate and Daddy apologizer, Lynn Cheney. According to Lawrence O'Donnell just now, "officials" have a different story.

I Will continue to wait for the facts.

[BenBurch]

It is my opinion that someone who truly supported the constitution and what it stands for would have to say no.

Shooting a washed up old terrorist in bed is not worth abandoning your country's essential principals, no matter how cathartic it may be.

Agreed.

Now, I, personally, wouldn't have had any issues with torturing those bastards myself. (And I DO have some experience with the techniques.) But, yes, the government had no business doing it no matter what the reasons.

ETA: I wouldn't expect to get any real, actionable, information, I would just be torturing them for sport...

[dtugg]

Agreed.

Now, I, personally, wouldn't have had any issues with torturing those bastards myself. (And I DO have some experience with the techniques.) But, yes, the government had no business doing it no matter what the reasons.

No matter the reason? Even if say, it was known that a nuclear weapon was going to detonate in Manhattan and a person who can stop it is in custody and isn't talking? Yes, I know this is a highly improbable 24 type scenario. But it is designed to see if you are actually against torturing somebody "no matter what the reasons."

[Skeptic Ginger]

C.I.A. Closes Unit Focused on Capture of bin Laden, July 2006 (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/04/washington/04intel.html)The unit, known as Alec Station, was disbanded late last year and its analysts reassigned within the C.I.A. Counterterrorist Center, the officials said.Coincidentally, 2005 was the year the Pakistani compound was built.

"The efforts to find Osama bin Laden are as strong as ever," said Jennifer Millerwise Dyck, a C.I.A. spokeswoman. "This is an agile agency, and the decision was made to ensure greater reach and focus."...

Michael Scheuer, a former senior C.I.A. official who was the first head of the unit, said the move reflected a view within the agency that Mr. bin Laden was no longer the threat he once was.

Mr. Scheuer said that view was mistaken....

...In recent years, the war in Iraq has stretched the resources of the intelligence agencies and the Pentagon, generating new priorities for American officials. For instance, much of the military's counterterrorism units, like the Army's Delta Force, had been redirected from the hunt for Mr. bin Laden to the search for Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, who was killed last month in Iraq.The rest of the article points out that BEFORE 9-11, a group within the CIA was obsessed with getting Bin Laden and were seen as alarmists.
"The bin Laden unit's analysts were so intense about their work that they made some of their C.I.A. colleagues uncomfortable," Mr. Coll wrote. Members of Alec Station "called themselves 'the Manson Family' because they had acquired a reputation for crazed alarmism about the rising Al Qaeda threat."

Intelligence officials said Alec Station was disbanded after Robert Grenier, who until February was in charge of the Counterterrorist Center, decided the agency needed to reorganize to better address constant changes in terrorist organizations.

Another news account: Was Ending CIA Osama Unit A Mistake? - First Head Of Unit Tells CBS News Closing Was 'Questionable' (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/07/05/terror/main1776250.shtml)the CIA has closed the unit that for a decade had the mission of hunting Osama bin Laden and his top lieutenants.

The unit, known as Alec Station, was disbanded late last year and its analysts reassigned within the CIA Counterterrorist Center, the paper reported officials said.
So here is a unit formed in 1996 under Clinton's watch that had Bin Laden as it's top or sole priority. That corroborates Richard Clarke's claims that Clinton passed the Bin Laden ball to Bush who promptly dropped it. This was before 9-11-01.

Bush then failed to make Bin Laden a priority after 9-11. While Bush used 9-11 as an excuse to take out Saddam, Bin Laden escaped Tora Bora where he might have been caught.


And then in 2009 Obama redirected our priorities back to Obama: Gen McChrystal: Bin Laden is key to al-Qaeda defeat (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8402138.stm)President Barack Obama's deployment of 30,000 extra troops to Afghanistan meant success was possible.
But [Gen McChrystal] said the mission was "undeniably difficult" and the next 18 months would be crucial. "I don't think that we can finally defeat al-Qaeda until he's captured or killed," said Gen McChrystal of Bin Laden.
"I believe he is an iconic figure at this point, whose survival emboldens al-Qaeda as a franchising organisation across the world."
The general said that killing or capturing Bin Laden would not spell the end of al-Qaeda, but that the movement could not be eradicated while Bin Laden remained at large....

...US Secretary of Defence Robert Gates said last week that officials have had no reliable information on Bin Laden's whereabouts for "years"."No reliable information for years" suggests that the claims by the CIA that changing focus from Bin Laden in 2006 did not mean they had stopped looking was disingenuous at best and a lie at worst. Yesterday's mission was unlikely to have occurred under Bush. This explains why it took 10 years to find Bin Laden. Bush wasn't looking for him seriously and after 2005, not much at all. Obama changed that and successfully found Bin Laden.

[Noztradamus]

I doubt Navy Seals use their passports at all.

So .. undocumented workers willing to do the jobs that Pakistanis won't do

[BenBurch]

So .. undocumented workers willing to do the jobs that Pakistanis won't do

LOL

[Skeptic Ginger]

The Daily KOS has done some detective work on the torture claim:

Waterboarding did not reveal Osama bin Laden trail (http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/05/02/972427/-Waterboarding-did-not-reveal-Osama-bin-Laden-trail)

Here's the NYTs article Detective Work on Courier Led to Breakthrough on Bin Laden (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/02/world/asia/02reconstruct-capture-osama-bin-laden.html?hp)Detainees at the prison at Guantánamo Bay, Cuba, had given the courier’s pseudonym to American interrogators and said that the man was a protégé of Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, the confessed mastermind of the Sept. 11 attacks.

American intelligence officials said Sunday night that they finally learned the courier’s real name four years ago, but that it took another two years for them to learn the general region where he operated.

This corroborates the Daily KOS report:From these dates we can conclude that either KSM shielded the courier’s identity entirely until close to 2007, or he told his interrogators that there was a courier who might be protecting bin Laden early in his detention but they were never able to force him to give the courier’s true name or his location, at least not until three or four years after the waterboarding of KSM ended. That’s either a sign of the rank incompetence of KSM’s interrogators (that is, that they missed the significance of a courier protecting OBL), or a sign he was able to withstand whatever treatment they used with him.


I continue to await more facts.

[Skeptic Ginger]

No matter the reason? Even if say, it was known that a nuclear weapon was going to detonate in Manhattan and a person who can stop it is in custody and isn't talking? Yes, I know this is a highly improbable 24 type scenario. But it is designed to see if you are actually against torturing somebody "no matter what the reasons."

This BS scenario is the usual fare when claiming torture is justified. Trouble is this particular hypothetical HAS NEVER BEEN AN ACTUAL BASIS ANYONE WAS TORTURED.

[Regnad Kcin]

now that obl is dead - what's next? Who will the next face of terror be?v v v

[dtugg]

This BS scenario is the usual fare when claiming torture is justified. Trouble is this particular hypothetical HAS NEVER BEEN AN ACTUAL BASIS ANYONE WAS TORTURED.

Please. I acknowledged it was a highly improbable scenario. Ben said he was against government torture not matter what. I was asking him if was really true.

And how about you. Would you do it? I understand if you decide to ignore the question. Either your principals are flexible, or you think that a million lives are less important than the rights of some terrorist scumbag. Probably a question best left unanswered from your point of view.

[EventHorizon]

Now that OBL is dead - what's next? Who will the next face of Terror be?

v v v

No way. It will definitely be Flo from the Progressive commercials.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Why would that have anything to do with it? That notion just doesn't mesh with the information that has been made public so far:

http://washingtonexaminer.com/blogs/beltway-confidential/2011/05/raid-got-bin-laden-was-culmination-years-work-sr-admin-official-s

"Sunday afternoon’s raid by U.S. forces that killed Osama bin Laden was the “culmination of years of careful and highly advanced intelligence work,” senior administration officials said in a conference call"

The description of the chain of events just doesn't match a binary "Bush screwed up, Obama got it right" narrative. Obama got it right, but it took a long time to get right, starting from well before Obama took office.And yet we see Bush quit bothering with Osama in 2005 and Obama re-instituted the effort in 2009.

Per my post here. (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=7143718#post7143718)

[dtugg]

I guess Bush Derangement Syndrome is alive and well given that many people have used this joyous occasion to bash him.

[leftysergeant]

If toruture was used to gain intel that eventually tracked him down, would it have been worth it?No.

[tyr_13]

I guess Bush Derangement Syndrome is alive and well given that many people have used this joyous occasion to bash him.

Or to advocate torture.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Please. I acknowledged it was a highly improbable scenario. Ben said he was against government torture not matter what. I was asking him if was really true.

And how about you. Would you do it? I understand if you decide to ignore the question. Either your principals are flexible, or you think that a million lives are less important than the rights of some terrorist scumbag. Probably a question best left unanswered from your point of view.

No I would not. First, I don't believe the scenario is realistic, but more importantly I believe it would be a waste of time. The evidence is clear that torture almost never if ever elicits actionable information and much more often only elicits lies either because the goal of the torture is only to get a false confession for propaganda purposes, or, because if you are being tortured you will say anything to get the torture stopped.


People have a TV version of torture. In reality intelligence experts know the TV version is unrealistic and most intelligence people against torture agree it wastes more resources than it provides benefit. So in your scenario, we'd be much more likely to waste time and resources looking for the bomb based on torture elicited information than if we used other means of obtaining the information.

[leftysergeant]

I guess Bush Derangement Syndrome is alive and well given that many people have used this joyous occasion to bash him.Obama idi in Pakistan what the Shrub should have done in Afghanistan. No bluster, no warnings, just send the Airborne and Delta
Force or SEALS or whoever they thought they could insert and grab the religious whackadoodle and blow away his camp and get the hell out. Would have been a lot cheaper and more awesome.

If the Shrub gets credit for killing Osama, why doesn't Carter get credit for bringing down the soviet Union by backing the Mujahedeen? All old Jelly-brain did was kick Gorby in the shins when he tried to stand down, but he is credited for "winning" the Cold War.

Republicons make no sense at all when it comes to military strategy.

[Skeptic Ginger]

I guess Bush Derangement Syndrome is alive and well given that many people have used this joyous occasion to bash him.
In my case, this joyous occasion rubs salt in old Bush caused wounds. It reminds me how much damage he did to this country.

[dtugg]

No.

Better to let him go than have some scumbag associate believe he is going to drown?

Or to advocate torture.

If the information was gained through torture it is a pretty clear, pragmatic reason to support it.

[Ausmerican]

Please. I acknowledged it was a highly improbable scenario. Ben said he was against government torture not matter what. I was asking him if was really true.

And how about you. Would you do it? I understand if you decide to ignore the question. Either your principals are flexible, or you think that a million lives are less important than the rights of some terrorist scumbag. Probably a question best left unanswered from your point of view.

In the face of your BS scenario I would possibly torture someone for the information if I ran out of other options and was desparate. I would however do this knowing full well it was a criminal activity and I would expect and deserve to be prosecuted to the full extent of the law for it after the fact.
I would certainly NOT expect it to be policy, much less allowed, or even tacitly condoned, by the government of any civilized country. And I would probably feel shame if my country pardoned me for it if the information panned out.
To clarify that, I would certainly be ashamed of myself regardless, but I would be ashamed of my country if they let me off for torture just because it worked.

[dtugg]

No I would not. First, I don't believe the scenario is realistic, but more importantly I believe it would be a waste of time. The evidence is clear that torture almost never if ever elicits actionable information and much more often only elicits lies either because the goal of the torture is only to get a false confession for propaganda purposes, or, because if you are being tortured you will say anything to get the torture stopped.


People have a TV version of torture. In reality intelligence experts know the TV version is unrealistic and most intelligence people against torture agree it wastes more resources than it provides benefit. So in your scenario, we'd be much more likely to waste time and resources looking for the bomb based on torture elicited information than if we used other means of obtaining the information.

So your reasons are purely pragmatic. If it worked, it would be acceptable?

[dtugg]

In the face of your BS scenario I would possibly torture someone for the information if I ran out of other options and was desparate. I would however do this knowing full well it was a criminal activity and I would expect and deserve to be prosecuted to the full extent of the law for it after the fact.
I would certainly NOT expect it to be policy, much less allowed, or even tacitly condoned, by the government of any civilized country. And I would probably feel shame if my country pardoned me for it if the information panned out.
To clarify that, I would certainly be ashamed of myself regardless, but I would be ashamed of my country if they let me off for torture just because it worked.

Thanks for answering. For me it is extremely clear that 1,000,000 lives>rights of some piece of crap. And thus there is no reason to feel shame. I don't even really understand how anyone could feel otherwise.

[tyr_13]

If the information was gained through torture it is a pretty clear, pragmatic reason to support it.

And if Bush really did cock things up, it's good reason to point that out too no? If, if, if...

Seriously, we all know this is going to be used to stroke whatever idea, person, or group people liked in the first place. You're going to advocate torture with it. Lefty's going hate on Republicans. BaC's going to hate on Obama. Please, can we keep those pet subjects on their threads? Just a suggestion.

[Jekyll's Guest]

Thanks for answering.

I wish I could say the same, but you never answered my questions.

[Skeptic Ginger]

...

If the information was gained through torture it is a pretty clear, pragmatic reason to support it.
Funny thing about that "if", turns out you can't find any.

[dtugg]

And if Bush really did cock things up, it's good reason to point that out too no? If, if, if...

Seriously, we all know this is going to be used to stroke whatever idea, person, or group people liked in the first place. You're going to advocate torture with it. Lefty's going hate on Republicans. BaC's going to hate on Obama. Please, can we keep those pet subjects on their threads? Just a suggestion.

You're right. I will let it drop.

[Tricky]

now that obl is dead - what's next? Who will the next face of terror be?v v v
I was thinking Charlie Sheen.

[dtugg]

I wish I could say the same, but you never answered my questions.

I apologize. I did not see your questions. I will answer you in PM as I said I would drop the subject in this thread.

[tyr_13]

I was thinking Charlie Sheen.

That works well, because when he gets taken out, we will have to start the hunt for Emilio.

[Skeptic Ginger]

So your reasons are purely pragmatic. If it worked, it would be acceptable?

A, it is not acceptable because of the negative consequences, and B, it is even less acceptable because it doesn't work.

To put forth a fake scenario and ask a loaded question does not get an honest answer. I refuse to be manipulated and you only want a manipulated answer. Why don't you ask your question honestly? You want to know if I believe there is a moral IMPERATIVE against torture. I don't think there is. Now what?

If going to war would save a gazillion innocent children would a conscientious objector have reservations about their convictions?

This manipulation is aimed at proving a moral imperative is not the basis of being against something. Well I don't happen to believe there is a moral imperative against torture. Moral implications of finding torture unacceptable only reinforces my beliefs it does not dictate them. If it did, that would be dogmatic and dogma is an unsuccessful approach to the Universe.

So yes, in this case my reasons are very pragmatic. Does that negate my position because it is not based on the moral imperative you imagine my decision is based on? 'Fraid not.

:rolleyes:

[Tricky]

In my case, this joyous occasion rubs salt in old Bush caused wounds. It reminds me how much damage he did to this country.
Then everything must rub salt in those wounds, because Bush, in spite of his many faults, went after bin Laden. This is not an occasion to remember his faults, but to celebrate the fact that two presidents had the same vision and that vision finally came to fruition. Bush was extremely gracious in giving Obama credit. I'd like to think that we can put aside differences and offer the same to Bush.

[Lisa Simpson]

This is just up the road from where I live:

http://www.ktla.com/news/landing/ktla-bin-laden-graffiti,0,1486897.story

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa25/idiotdogbrain/61323340.jpg

[Mister Earl]

I present to you... the Portal 2 Osama song:

It's always such a pleasure,
Remember when you tried to bomb me twice?
Oh, how we laughed and laughed,
Except I wasn't laughing,
Under the circumstances I've been shockingly nice.

You want your martyrdom take it,
That's what I'm counting on,
I used to want you jailed but,
Now I only want you gone.

He was a lot like you,
(Maybe not quite as heavy),
Now SEALs are in here too.
One day they woke me up,
So I could live forever,
It's such a shame the same will never happen to you.

You've got your short, sad memory left,
That's what I'm counting on,
I'll let you get right to it,
Now I only want you gone.

Goodbye, my only friend,
Oh, did you think I meant you?
That would be funny if it weren't so sad,
Well you have been dirt-nap'd,
I don't need anyone now,
When I delete you maybe I'll stop feeling so bad.

Go make some new crab food,
That's what I'm counting on,
You're something else's meal,
Now I only want you gone,
Now I only want you gone,
Now I only want you gone.

[Travis]

If toruture was used to gain intel that eventually tracked him down, would it have been worth it?

Nope. If I shoot my gun at a child, with the intent to kill it because I have a sick fetish for children's blood, but it misses and takes out a charging mountain lion should I continue to shoot at children? Likewise should we continue to torture innocent people that kinda look Muslim because one of them just might know something?

[Skeptic Ginger]

Thanks for answering. For me it is extremely clear that 1,000,000 lives>rights of some piece of crap. And thus there is no reason to feel shame. I don't even really understand how anyone could feel otherwise.
So there were a million people saved by information about a nuclear bomb we obtained through torturing someone?

[tyr_13]

Nope. If I shoot my gun at a child, with the intent to kill it because I have a sick fetish for children's blood, but it misses and takes out a charging mountain lion should I continue to shoot at children? Likewise should we continue to torture innocent people that kinda look Muslim because one of them just might know something?

So there were a million people saved by information about a nuclear bomb we obtained through torturing someone?

Don't we have like, a dozen torture threads? This thread should be for important things, like which Sheen is going to take over as the new face of terrorism.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Then everything must rub salt in those wounds, because Bush, in spite of his many faults, went after bin Laden. This is not an occasion to remember his faults, but to celebrate the fact that two presidents had the same vision and that vision finally came to fruition. Bush was extremely gracious in giving Obama credit. I'd like to think that we can put aside differences and offer the same to Bush.See my posts on this matter.

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=7143663#post7143663

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=7142984#post7142984

Bush dropped the Bin Laden ball before 9-11 and again after 9-11. He went for a needless war to gain access to more oil in the MiddleEast using 9-11 as an excuse. Many people are unaware that Clinton went after Osama and the Repugs put roadblocks in his way claiming everything was about Wag the Dog distractions from Lewinsky. When Bush took office they consciously dismissed everything Clinton had been doing on terrorism and Bin Laden, believing their own campaign rhetoric I guess.

Of course Bush and Cheney have made complimentary comments. What do you expect, they should call attention to their failures or make ludicrous Trump-like claims they credit themselves?

[Skeptic Ginger]

Don't we have like, a dozen torture threads? This thread should be for important things, like which Sheen is going to take over as the new face of terrorism.I agree it is off topic. Good luck with that. If I can help, let me know.

[Emet]

Then everything must rub salt in those wounds, because Bush, in spite of his many faults, went after bin Laden. This is not an occasion to remember his faults, but to celebrate the fact that two presidents had the same vision and that vision finally came to fruition. Bush was extremely gracious in giving Obama credit. I'd like to think that we can put aside differences and offer the same to Bush.

Put aside differences?
Here?
On this forum?
In this thread?

:boggled:

:D

[ANTPogo]

This amused me greatly.

One of BeAChooser's favorite crackpot websites, Newsmax, quotes former Bush Administration Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld as explicitly denying (http://www.newsmax.com/Headline/DonaldRumsfeld-gitmo-waterboarding-osamabinladen/2011/05/02/id/394820?s=al&promo_code=C30F-1) that the information that led to the death of Osama Bin Laden as coming from a waterboarded detainee. Instead, it was all regular old “normal interrogation approaches.”

[BenBurch]

I do believe Bush wanted to get OBL, but I also believe that he took some really bad advice. And I believe a more capable man would have had the sense to question what people were telling him.

[dtugg]

This amused me greatly.

One of BeAChooser's favorite crackpot websites, Newsmax, quotes former Bush Administration Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld as explicitly denying (http://www.newsmax.com/Headline/DonaldRumsfeld-gitmo-waterboarding-osamabinladen/2011/05/02/id/394820?s=al&promo_code=C30F-1) that the information that led to the death of Osama Bin Laden as coming from a waterboarded detainee. Instead, it was all regular old “normal interrogation approaches.”

Thanks. I'll take his word for it. He certainly has no reason to lie. I'll never bring up the subject again.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Put aside differences?
Here?
On this forum?
In this thread?

:boggled:

:D:D

[theprestige]

Nope. If I shoot my gun at a child, with the intent to kill it because I have a sick fetish for children's blood, but it misses and takes out a charging mountain lion should I continue to shoot at children? Likewise should we continue to torture innocent people that kinda look Muslim because one of them just might know something?

And this right here is why I'm convinced that analogies are the stupidest form of argument ever.
Removed personal comments

[WildCat]

Bush wasn't looking for him seriously and after 2005, not much at all.
Nothing you have posted supports this assertion.

[dtugg]

My nearly 13 year old brother doesn't even know who Osama bin Laden was beside that he was "some terrorist guy" :sigh: I think that was pretty much the same answer I would have given when I was 13. In 1998. What the hell are schools teaching kids nowadays? I mean, Osama was undoubtedly one of the most important people of 21st century thus far.

[Tsukasa Buddha]

The first things my parents said to me today:

Dad: He wasn't killed yesterday! It takes 24 hours to do DNA, I looked it up online.

Mom: Why did they bury him at sea?

:bwall

[Ziggurat]

And yet we see Bush quit bothering with Osama in 2005 and Obama re-instituted the effort in 2009.

No, we don't see that, you imagine it.

[Ziggurat]

Since Obama has been president, there has not been a single terrorist attack on US soil, plus he killed Osama bin Laden.

Mission Accomplished! :D

Killing bin Laden is indeed an accomplishment to be proud of. But you're simply wrong that there have been no attacks on US soil during Obama;s presidency. Or have you forgotten Fort Hood? It's unreasonable to expect or demand perfection on this account, and I would never suggest blaming Obama for Ft. Hood. But it's also foolish to invent a fictional history that contradicts reality.

[thaiboxerken]

I didn't realize that Ft. Hood was an Al Queda attack. Link?

[dtugg]

I wasn't aware that all terrorists attacks are perpetrated by AQ.

[Ziggurat]

Operative word added back in and bolded:

No, johnny. The operative words were "Obama certainly deserves credit for this". Which explicitly contradicts your accusation about what I suggested.

It's a classic set-up for a backhanded compliment

"Tom is a nice guy, but..."

And yet, you cut off what was after the "but". So let's go to the actual quote, shall we?

Obama certainly deserves credit for this, but your accusation that Bush didn't seriously pursue OBL is unfounded.

Does that undercut Obama? No, it doesn't. There is no dichotomy here: one is not actually required to blame Bush in order to praise Obama. You could reasonably take that as undercutting Pardalis (who I was responding to), but what comes after the "but" in no way lessens or contradicts what came before it, as the actual quote reveals. So it's no surprise that you cut that part out.

In other words, you're trying to cover your lies with more lies. But they remain transparent.

[thaiboxerken]

I wasn't aware that all terrorists attacks are perpetrated by AQ.

I didn't realize that a solo person going nuts with a gun on a base was a terrorist act.

I saw a person get pulled over for speeding. Was that a terrorist act as well?

[Ziggurat]

I didn't realize that Ft. Hood was an Al Queda attack. Link?

Dorian didn't say anything about Al Qaeda attacks. Link. (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=7143519#post7143519)

[Ziggurat]

I didn't realize that a solo person going nuts with a gun on a base was a terrorist act.

Well, that's your problem right there, then. Glad we could clear that up for you.

[dtugg]

I didn't realize that a solo person going nuts with a gun on a base was a terrorist act.

I saw a person get pulled over for speeding. Was that a terrorist act as well?

I would say that killing a bunch of people for political reasons is a terrorist act. Either way your response indicated that you believe all terrorist attacks are by AQ. I am sure that is not what you actually believe but that is how it read.

[geni]

My nearly 13 year old brother doesn't even know who Osama bin Laden was beside that he was "some terrorist guy" :sigh: I think that was pretty much the same answer I would have given when I was 13. In 1998. What the hell are schools teaching kids nowadays? I mean, Osama was undoubtedly one of the most important people of 21st century thus far.

How important individuals are is always a tricky game to play. For example would you consider Mohamed Bouazizi one of the most important people of the 21st century?

If bin Laden wasn't around Ayman al-Zawahiri may well have found someone else to partner with.

[thaiboxerken]

Nope. I don't buy it. Please prove that the Ft Hood incident was a terrorist act.

[portlandatheist]

Obama did an absolutely wonderful job of making a very conscious decision to go after OBL and allocating resources and making tough decisions and risks. 3 cheers for Obama! I feel nothing but gratitude to Obama, our armed forces and the choices they made. Additionally, the intelligence about the courier took place during Bush's watch and this entire thing couldn't have happened without both of their efforts as commanders in chief. If there was ever a moment for liberals and conservatives to be on the same page, that time is now. Yes, mistakes have been made and in hind sight, we can point lots of fingers but this operation has been years in the making and took the cooperation of many diverse groups of dedicated Americans and they all deserve our gratitude and that includes both the Bush and Obama administration. My hats are off to them!

[geni]

I would say that killing a bunch of people for political reasons is a terrorist act.

That creates the problem that pretty much all war is defined as terrorism (there were a few wars that were conducted purely for financial gain).

The other problem is that there are terrorist groups that go in for property damage rather than killing people. Your definition would exclude the angry brigade (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Angry_Brigade).

[dtugg]

How important individuals are is always a tricky game to play. For example would you consider Mohamed Bouazizi one of the most important people of the 21st century?

If bin Laden wasn't around Ayman al-Zawahiri may well have found someone else to partner with.

No, since I had to google him to figure out who he is.

At the vary least one could say that Osama was one of the most infamous people of the 21st Century. Everybody who is old enough to remember 9/11 should know who he was. OK, my brother wasn't old enough, but isn't that what schools are for?

[thaiboxerken]

I would say that killing a bunch of people for political reasons is a terrorist act. Either way your response indicated that you believe all terrorist attacks are by AQ. I am sure that is not what you actually believe but that is how it read.

I wouldn't. And also, the terrorist acts being talked about in the thread were about those from abroad, or originating from.

[geni]

Nope. I don't buy it. Please prove that the Ft Hood incident was a terrorist act.

Terrorism is a subjective term. For example it's entirely possible to argue that people going postal at work is Terrorism.

[dtugg]

That creates the problem that pretty much all war is defined as terrorism (there were a few wars that were conducted purely for financial gain).

The other problem is that there are terrorist groups that go in for property damage rather than killing people. Your definition would exclude the angry brigade (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Angry_Brigade).

You have a point; terrorism is hard to define.

[Darth Rotor]

I assume you mean 2001.
Weed must work quickly.:D
Yes, good catch on my typo. Oops. :eek:
They probably used tanks.
Blackhawks. (Them are helicopters)
I'll bet the stocks do well tomorrow. :)
Dropped three points. you would have bet wrongly.
MSNBC reports it was another person hiding behind the woman. We'll never know if it is true or a PR story. Too bad we can't trust our own military to tell us the truth.
Too bad you would not recognize the truth if it shot you in the face.
I agree, respecting his religious beliefs that he used as his excuse to attack the US? That's just wrong.
Disagree. This is a "kill 'em with kindness" political move that doesn't have to make complete sense. He's better sharkbait than most.
Reports of a helicopter crash. Hmm I would have assumed that an osprey would have been used.
Why? You can't fast rope off of an Osprey quite like you can off of a helicopter. That is one of the Osprey's unfortunate limitations.
Oh. I see. And who was the hide and seek champ before Bin Laden?
Some Aggie, whose skeleton was found in a closet at A & M in 1956.
That was my thought as well.
Aye.

Of course, with the body now fish food, the conspiracy folks on all sides will be out "proving" that (1) He's not dead or (2) He's been dead for years and this was an Obama 'false flag' operation.
How is life up in tornado land, anyhow?
Hamas condemns killing of "holy warrior" bin Laden

GAZA (Reuters) – The Palestinian Islamist group Hamas on Monday condemned the killing by U.S. forces of Osama bin Laden and mourned him as an "Arab holy warrior."
"We regard this as a continuation of the American policy based on oppression and the shedding of Muslim and Arab blood," Ismail Haniyeh, head of the Hamas administration in the Gaza Strip, told reporters.

Way to help out US good will in the Arab Israeli peace process, numbnuts in Hamas. Geez, what do these idiots drink for breakfast?
For taking almost 10 years to kill one guy?

Good thing he's dead, but it's an embarassment it took this long.
Well, it is thanks to Pervez Musharaff, and a bunch of other elites in Pakistan, that it took so long. :mad:
Has anyone knowledgeable already commented on the probability that higher-up elements in the Pakistani army protected OBL?
It's sorta obvious. See also this evening's comments from the Pakistani government decrying the US operation, which our president RIGHTLY did not share with them until it was fait accompli.
Just heard on the news that Obama specifically gave orders to kill.
Good thing, "capture or kill" wasn't a good idea.
Do you mean if he didn't go down fighting?
Reports are of a 40 minute fire fight, or a 40 minute raid. Not sure of the context. Apparently, he went down fighting.
I'm sure Osama will release a video of his death in due course.
Makes sense you'd say something that stupid.
"Purpose of visit?"
"Well, technically, it's business, but we're going to enjoy this."
Heh

Right now, I'm really happy. Don't harsh my buzz with all this partisan crap.
100% agree.
This is just up the road from where I live:

http://www.ktla.com/news/landing/ktla-bin-laden-graffiti,0,1486897.story

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa25/idiotdogbrain/61323340.jpg
Friends of yours, or just something curious in the 'hood? :confused:

[dtugg]

I wouldn't. And also, the terrorist acts being talked about in the thread were about those from abroad, or originating from.

Either way, yours was a nonsensical response unless you believe all terrorists attacks are perpetrated by AQ.

[thaiboxerken]

Either way, yours was a nonsensical response unless you believe all terrorists attacks are perpetrated by AQ.

Hardly. The entire thread is about Osama, the former leader of AQ. Just because you can jump out of context on a whim doesn't mean everyone else should.

[geni]

No, since I had to google him to figure out who he is.

Not surprising. Some veg seller sets themselves in Tunisia and suddenly we are bombing bits of Libya no one has heard from since WW2. Makes a bit of a mess of the influential person idea.



At the vary least one could say that Osama was one of the most infamous people of the 21st Century. Everybody who is old enough to remember 9/11 should know who he was. OK, my brother wasn't old enough, but isn't that what schools are for?

I think the school would expect the parents to cover that. I meant I can't actualy imagine a curriculum requirement for age 4-10 "must be able to name person who headed the organisation that carried out the 9/11 attacks". It's just something you expect people to find out through cultural osmosis.

[dtugg]

Hardly. The entire thread is about Osama, the former leader of AQ. Just because you can jump out of context on a whim doesn't mean everyone else should.

Sorry, "terrorist attacks" does not mean "AQ terrorist attacks".

[thaiboxerken]

Sorry, "terrorist attacks" does not mean "AQ terrorist attacks".

Sorry, but the context of which "terrorist attack" was used meant "from AQ."

[thaiboxerken]

Since Obama has been president, there has not been a single terrorist attack on US soil, plus he killed Osama bin Laden.

Mission Accomplished! :D

We could avoid more nonsense bickering by simply asking what Dorian meant.

[Ziggurat]

We could avoid more nonsense bickering by simply asking what Dorian meant.

We don't need to appeal to what he meant. We can evaluate what he said. And what he said was not "Al Qaeda attack" but "terrorist attack". If he meant "Al Qaeda attack", then that's what he should have written, and it's his fault, not mine, that I based my response on what he wrote and not what he meant.

[I Am The Scum]

This amused me greatly.

One of BeAChooser's favorite crackpot websites, Newsmax, quotes former Bush Administration Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld as explicitly denying (http://www.newsmax.com/Headline/DonaldRumsfeld-gitmo-waterboarding-osamabinladen/2011/05/02/id/394820?s=al&promo_code=C30F-1) that the information that led to the death of Osama Bin Laden as coming from a waterboarded detainee. Instead, it was all regular old “normal interrogation approaches.”

My god... The bias of the liberal media is spreading.

[geni]

Why? You can't fast rope off of an Osprey quite like you can off of a helicopter. That is one of the Osprey's unfortunate limitations.


It's faster though which would come in handy for smash and grab when you've got to worry about the pakistani airforce taking an interest.

[thaiboxerken]

We don't need to appeal to what he meant. We can evaluate what he said. And what he said was not "Al Qaeda attack" but "terrorist attack". If he meant "Al Qaeda attack", then that's what he should have written, and it's his fault, not mine, that I based my response on what he wrote and not what he meant.

That's a nice way to say "I'm going to ignore the context."

And for that, I thank you.

[Darth Rotor]

It's faster though which would come in handy for smash and grab when you've got to worry about the pakistani airforce taking an interest.
I understand that quite well, thanks. If you look at the compound, and what was needed for the raid, you might find that the Black Hawk was the better platform. Depends on how you intended to do the insertion and extraction drill.

Granted, the speed would be nice, but that isn't the only criterion for selecting a mission platform.

(IIRC, the spec ops Black hawks have air to air refueling probes, I'd need to check up on that.)

I suspect there were other assets on call if the Pakistanis tried to interfere, but I don't know that for a fact.

I also suspect a phone call was made to the leader of Pakistan, at the suitable time, advising him and his forces not to interfere. Don't know that for fact, or not, either.

[Joey McGee]

bin Laden's been dead and on ice for 10 years, this is a hoax, a psy-op. Notice how it was released at a moment crucial for the re-election of President Obama. They had to "keep him alive" to support those wars, now that there are other boogeymen seared in our minds they can use his body as capital. Man what would we do without Alex Jones on our side in the infowar.

Exclusive: 'Bin Laden Dead' Hoax Exposed (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpBPVkpmoeg&feature=player_embedded)

[geni]

I also suspect a phone call was made to the leader of Pakistan, at the suitable time, advising him and his forces not to interfere. Don't know that for fact, or not, either.

That would contradict a few public statements.

[AdMan]

bin Laden's been dead and on ice for 10 years, this is a hoax, a psy-op. Notice how it was released at a moment crucial for the re-election of President Obama. They had to "keep him alive" to support those wars, now that there are other boogeymen seared in our minds they can use his body as capital. Man what would we do without Alex Jones on our side in the infowar.

Exclusive: 'Bin Laden Dead' Hoax Exposed (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpBPVkpmoeg&feature=player_embedded)


Besides that utterly stupid video without actual evidence, what other proof do you have?

Alex Jones is an idiot, though that probably goes without saying.

[dtugg]

Besides that utterly stupid video without actual evidence, what other proof do you have?

Alex Jones is an idiot, though that probably goes without saying.

I am pretty sure he doesn't actually believe that.

[AdMan]

I am pretty sure he doesn't actually believe that.

Well, that's heartening, certainly. :)

Not helpful to spread that trash, though.