Osama bin Laden dead,

[Joey McGee]

Well, that's heartening, certainly. :)

Not helpful to spread that trash, though.

Well it's definitely good for a laugh anyways. I also saw "This will be one of the most important broadcasts of the Alex Jones Show." and they were telling people to spread the word about this legendary and important broadcast. It is amazingly stupid.

I'm assuming that we'll get some video and pictures soon, can't see that not happening. Of course they can always fake bodies too... :rolleyes:

[TheAntiV]

How if we can only do the same to Justin Bieber.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Nothing you have posted supports this assertion.

Right. Bush's own words and the dissolution of the CIA task force looking for Bin Laden from 96 to 05 don't support a thing. :rolleyes:

[Balls Brunswick]

How gangster is it that Obama doesn't even mention any of this on his facebook? I'm been a pretty harsh critic of the Obama Administration but he's raised himself a lot in my eyes. Now just end the wars and fix the economy.

[Ausmerican]

Dont know if it has been mentioned yet but I was just reading that they grabbed Osamas hard drive from his computer while they were there.

Actually more than that: "The assault force of Navy SEALs snatched a trove of computer drives and disks during their weekend raid on Osama bin Laden’s compound, yielding what a U.S. official called “the mother lode of intelligence.”

The special operations forces grabbed personal computers, thumb drives and electronic equipment during the lightning raid that killed bin Laden.
“They cleaned it out,” one official said. “Can you imagine what’s on Osama bin Laden’s hard drive?”

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0511/54151.html

[Skeptic Ginger]

No, we don't see that, you imagine it.I'm not surprised you would ignore the evidence rather than counter it with some evidence Bush was seriously looking for Bin Laden.

Tora Bora - what made Saddam so important?

Richard Clarke, testimony corroborated

DPB called "historical only" by Conde Rice

"Not that interested" Bush's own words

Ending the CIA task force, why? Because Bush thought other things were more important

Obama elected, reestablishes the priority, and you see the results.


So feel free to give your rebuttal EVIDENCE. But don't accuse me of imagining things. :(

[Skeptic Ginger]

....
Too bad you would not recognize the truth if it shot you in the face. Jessica Lynch
Pat Tillman

Go ahead and tell me how those cases don't support what I said.

[Skeptic Ginger]

... “Can you imagine what’s on Osama bin Laden’s hard drive?”
...Porn? :)

[Ausmerican]

Porn? :)

Actually I was expecting "Goat Porn" to be the first dozen answers.
Intel would be nice though.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Actually I was expecting "Goat Porn" to be the first dozen answers.
Intel would be nice though.Considering they were being so careful about not communicating in any electronic format that might be eavesdropped on, if we indeed have some harddrives from that compound, they have to be a goldmine.

[SusanB-M1]

I see there are five more pages of posts, so apologies for not reading them all:) but has it been said yet how many people there were in the place where bin Laden was and what happened to the ones who weren't killed? Did the helicopters have a long flight before they got there?

[Ausmerican]

I see there are five more pages of posts, so apologies for not reading them all:) but has it been said yet how many people there were in the place where bin Laden was and what happened to the ones who weren't killed? Did the helicopters have a long flight before they got there?

You are only missing 5 pages on when/if torture is acceptable, a link to Rumsfeld saying that the intel that led to this raid was definitely not gained through torture and a bunch of posts about which President should get more credit. I think that covered most of it.
Not sure about flight time or numbers though.

[Travis]

And this right here is why I'm convinced that analogies are the stupidest form of argument ever. Removed personal remarks

Removed response to previously moderated content

And, what, exactly do you find wrong with my analogy?

[SusanB-M1]

You are only missing 5 pages on when/if torture is acceptable, a link to Rumsfeld saying that the intel that led to this raid was definitely not gained through torture and a bunch of posts about which President should get more credit. I think that covered most of it.
Not sure about flight time or numbers though.
Thank you for the info update.

[Ausmerican]

And this right here is why I'm convinced that analogies are the stupidest form of argument ever. Removed personal remarks

Removed respose to previously moderated content

[Ziggurat]

That's a nice way to say "I'm going to ignore the context."

That's a nice way of saying you'll interpret his words to mean something other than what the words mean because it covers your mistake.

[GregHouseMD]

The fact that the first 5 to 20 times the waterboarding didn't work does not mean the threat of doing it again didn't have an effect on the "detainee's" decision to offer up the couier's name.

Guess we'll never know, it's enough the SOB is dead.

Bin Laden was having a bad week anyway. He was bummed that Casey was voted off Idol and he's was worried about Matt's depression on Survior.

[gumboot]

The government can turn a DNA match in less than 20 hours.

And how long do you think it would take to get the DNA sample from the site of the assault to a secure military lab to commence the required testing?

[BenBurch]

I am pretty sure he doesn't actually believe that.

Alex Jones is to talk radio as WWF is to Olympic Wrestling.

[BenBurch]

And how long do you think it would take to get the DNA sample from the site of the assault to a secure military lab to commence the required testing?

Now, my information is a few years old, and likely things have improved (shorter time, smaller rig) but the machine I am thinking of could easily have been on a helicopter or at whichever base they touched down at in Afghanistan.

Just now did some digging, and yes they have improved it; http://www.networkworld.com/news/2010/092710-rapid-dna-analysis.html

[commandlinegamer]

Bin Laden was having a bad week anyway. He was bummed that Casey was voted off Idol and he's was worried about Matt's depression on Survior.

At least he got to see the royal wedding though.

[gumboot]

DPB called "historical only" by Conde Rice


It essentially is. Have you actually read it?

[gumboot]

I'm quite amused by some of the expressions of shock and surprise that the evidence indicates the Pakistani government (at various levels) probably knew Osama was there.

Anyone who is familiar with the history of Radical Islam in the Pathan territories readily knows that Pakistan is actually the real Radical Islamic/Terrorist threat to the west, and not Afghanistan or Iraq or Iran. Pakistan and Saudi Arabia. Two of the US's most "staunch" Islamic allies. The irony would make me laugh, if it wasn't so serious an issue.

[Sunstealer]

Bin Laden was having a bad week anyway. He was bummed that Casey was voted off Idol and he's was worried about Matt's depression on Survior.Oh I don't know, Arsenal beat Man Utd 1-0, so he probably rushed outside shouting "come on you gunners!".

[Orphia Nay]

Wow, this thread moves fast!

I've been attempting to speed read, but I'm not sure that's possible.

Has anyone got any evidence that a DNA test has been done?

Or have they just taken a sample to compare with his sister who died in a hospital in New York?

[JihadJane]

Quote:
Former President George W. Bush

"... This momentous achievement marks a victory for America, for people who seek peace around the world,..."


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42853022/ns/world_news-south_and_central_asia/


What a shameless joker he is!


Jihad.

Easily led, aren't you?

[Emet]

Wow, this thread moves fast!

Yep. :)

I've been attempting to speed read, but I'm not sure that's possible.

Evelyn claims it is (http://www.evelynwood.com.au/). ;)

Has anyone got any evidence that a DNA test has been done?

Or have they just taken a sample to compare with his sister who died in a hospital in New York?

According to this:

Yesterday morning, a test that compared the dead man’s DNA with samples collected from relatives, confirmed that the Al Qaeda leader had been killed, the official said on condition that he not be identified.

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2011/05/03/dna_samples_from_relatives_helped_confirm_identity _yesterday/

[Belz...]

This is awesome news.

Bahahaha! That was awesome.

[JJM 777]

Sorry for not reading ANYTHING in this thread, a bit busy now.

My feelings about this (legal disclaimer: feelings are not necessarily based on facts or anything else than how it feels):

911 needed a scapegoat, else people would have demanded closer and faster investigation into the strange events of the day than they actually did.

If the scapegoat never existed to begin with, or had nothing to do with it, or was on US side all the time and now lives somewhere after facial surgery, the scapegoat must disappear from the scene sooner or later by other means than being captured and imprisoned. The handy way to do it is to say that you killed him and then threw his body to the sea.

EVIDENCE? None, for ever. Hence my skepticism, for ever.

[Travis]

So, uh are you saying that you don't think that Bin Laden had anything to do with all the terrorist attacks linked to him?

[dtugg]

Sorry for not reading ANYTHING in this thread, a bit busy now.

My feelings about this (legal disclaimer: feelings are not necessarily based on facts or anything else than how it feels):

911 needed a scapegoat, else people would have demanded closer and faster investigation into the strange events of the day than they actually did.

If the scapegoat never existed to begin with, or had nothing to do with it, or was on US side all the time and now lives somewhere after facial surgery, the scapegoat must disappear from the scene sooner or later by other means than being captured and imprisoned. The handy way to do it is to say that you killed him and then threw his body to the sea.

EVIDENCE? None, for ever. Hence my skepticism, for ever.

So you're a truther.

[Belz...]

Wondering how the introductions in hell will go:

Satan: Mr Osama, meet Adolf Hitler, Joseph Stalin, Pol Pot, Marcel Marceau (afraid he's a bit shy). You know Saddam, of course...

Good idea. I'll make a special ops team out of these guys. Now excuse me while I check my registry. I think Hitler's stuck in an obsidian mine, somewhere...

[Belz...]

Sorry for not reading ANYTHING in this thread, a bit busy now.

My feelings about this (legal disclaimer: feelings are not necessarily based on facts or anything else than how it feels):

911 needed a scapegoat, else people would have demanded closer and faster investigation into the strange events of the day than they actually did.

If the scapegoat never existed to begin with, or had nothing to do with it, or was on US side all the time and now lives somewhere after facial surgery, the scapegoat must disappear from the scene sooner or later by other means than being captured and imprisoned. The handy way to do it is to say that you killed him and then threw his body to the sea.

EVIDENCE? None, for ever. Hence my skepticism, for ever.

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/608046235f50502c5.gif (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=5192)

[Cain]

Thank God for Seal Team Six. Thank God for American taxpayer dollars going to the military. Thank God for Bush torturing people to get the intel needed to cap OBL.

[lionking]

Sorry for not reading ANYTHING in this thread, a bit busy now.

My feelings about this (legal disclaimer: feelings are not necessarily based on facts or anything else than how it feels):

911 needed a scapegoat, else people would have demanded closer and faster investigation into the strange events of the day than they actually did.

If the scapegoat never existed to begin with, or had nothing to do with it, or was on US side all the time and now lives somewhere after facial surgery, the scapegoat must disappear from the scene sooner or later by other means than being captured and imprisoned. The handy way to do it is to say that you killed him and then threw his body to the sea.

EVIDENCE? None, for ever. Hence my skepticism, for ever.

You really should look up a definition of the word skepticism.

So who were the 9/11 culprits?

[zooterkin]

Thank God for Seal Team Six. Thank God for American taxpayer dollars going to the military.

Other mythical beings are available for thanking, or you could give credit to the people responsible.

Thank God for Bush torturing people to get the intel needed to cap OBL.
No.

[ladmo]

I'm quite amused by some of the expressions of shock and surprise that the evidence indicates the Pakistani government (at various levels) probably knew Osama was there.

Anyone who is familiar with the history of Radical Islam in the Pathan territories readily knows that Pakistan is actually the real Radical Islamic/Terrorist threat to the west, and not Afghanistan or Iraq or Iran. Pakistan and Saudi Arabia. Two of the US's most "staunch" Islamic allies. The irony would make me laugh, if it wasn't so serious an issue.
Absolutely ... spot on!

[JJM 777]

You really should look up a definition of the word skepticism.
We have only anecdotal evidence that it was Osama Bin Laden who was killed and thrown to the sea quicker than the WTC crime scene evidence was recycled. There is not more _evidence_ that it was him than there is evidence of miraculous healings at a Benny Hinn service. Anecdotes are no evidence, everyone here should know that better than well.

[thaiboxerken]

Right....the only evidence that counts is evidence you've personally observed.
Lame

[Cain]

Sorry, no such thing as a good day for America and a good day for Obama. Look at how arrogant that guy is, practically making it seem as though he personally squeezed the life out of Bin Laden. Say what you want a Bush, he was a humble, God-fearing man. I half-expect Barry to get on a jet, brag about flying it for twenty seconds, and then strut across an aircraft carrier with a codpiece.

[I Am The Scum]

We have only anecdotal evidence that it was Osama Bin Laden who was killed and thrown to the sea quicker than the WTC crime scene evidence was recycled. There is not more _evidence_ that it was him than there is evidence of miraculous healings at a Benny Hinn service. Anecdotes are no evidence, everyone here should know that better than well.

If you're willing to believe that the government is willing and able to stage this raid all for the sake of faking a report on Bin Laden's death, then you're also willing to believe that they would fake any other evidence they might have offered. Photos? Photoshopped. DNA? Falsified report. Video? Staged. "Bin Laden's" body? Surgically altered burkah salesman.

[JihadJane]

The Codfather (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cartoon/2011/may/03/steve-bell-osama-bin-laden-cartoon)

[JihadJane]

Say what you want a Bush, he was a humble, God-fearing man.

Rubbish!

[thaiboxerken]

If you're willing to believe that the government is willing and able to stage this raid all for the sake of faking a report on Bin Laden's death, then you're also willing to believe that they would fake any other evidence they might have offered. Photos? Photoshopped. DNA? Falsified report. Video? Staged. "Bin Laden's" body? Surgically altered burkah salesman.

By his logic, the moon landing was a hoax as well.

[zooterkin]

Sorry, no such thing as a good day for America and a good day for Obama. Look at how arrogant that guy is, practically making it seem as though he personally squeezed the life out of Bin Laden. Say what you want a Bush, he was a humble, God-fearing man. I half-expect Barry to get on a jet, brag about flying it for twenty seconds, and then strut across an aircraft carrier with a codpiece.

With a big banner saying, "Mission Accomplished (http://www.thewashingtonnote.com/twn_up_fls/MissionAccomplished.jpg)"?

[I Am The Scum]

With a big banner saying, "Mission Accomplished (http://www.thewashingtonnote.com/twn_up_fls/MissionAccomplished.jpg)"?

Hint: That's the joke.

[JihadJane]

By his logic, the moon landing was a hoax as well.

Is there a reason why you choose the default position of believing a governing structure that has repeatedly lied to you?

[The Fool]

Check it out on google maps: http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=34%C2%B0+11%E2%80%B2+15.6%E2%80%B3+N,+73%C2%B0+1 4%E2%80%B2+33.43%E2%80%B3+E&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=32.80241,77.871094&ie=UTF8&ll=34.187759,73.24269&spn=0.00209,0.004753&t=h&z=18
There is a cricket ground over the road from the compound. Probably someone stumbled on the secret when they were trying to get a ball back. You heard it here first....Osama discovered due to an excellent long drive back over the bowlers head...

[IDB87]

There is a cricket ground over the road from the compound. Probably someone stumbled on the secret when they were trying to get a ball back. You heard it here first....Osama discovered due to an excellent long drive back over the bowlers head...

I wonder if that lawn had a lot of balls and frisbee on it?

[Sword_Of_Truth]

By his logic, the moon landing was a hoax as well.Is there a reason why you choose the default position of believing a governing structure that has repeatedly lied to you?

wow.

Quoted for posterity.

[Belz...]

quicker than the WTC crime scene evidence was recycled.

So you ARE a truther. Thanks for clearing that up.

[Belz...]

Say what you want a Bush, he was a humble, God-fearing man.

Is that supposed to be a good thing ?

[Belz...]

Is there a reason why you choose the default position of believing a governing structure that has repeatedly lied to you?

This is getting better and better.

[zooterkin]

Hint: That's the joke.

Oh, sorry, was it a Poe?

[I Am The Scum]

This is getting better and better.

You know, I always wondered how far conspiracy theorists took the "don't trust the government" rule.

Scenario: A recent government report shows that wearing your seat belt is more important than initially believed.

No! It's a lie! Seat belts are bad! Everybody drive without a seat belt. The seat belt will kill you!

[thaiboxerken]

Is there a reason why you choose the default position of believing a governing structure that has repeatedly lied to you?

Is Al Queda part of the hoax? Did they issue proclamations of revenge to just go with it? How about the entire armed forces squadron that had to be part of the conspiracy? Do you think a conspiracy this big could be hoaxed? That is about as absurd as saying the moon landing was faked.

[BenBurch]

Is Al Queda part of the hoax? Did they issue proclamations of revenge to just go with it? How about the entire armed forces squadron that had to be part of the conspiracy? Do you think a conspiracy this big could be hoaxed? That is about as absurd as saying the moon landing was faked.

Many twoofers think that AlQ is an arm of the CIA, and so, is of course in on the hoax.

[I Ratant]

My nearly 13 year old brother doesn't even know who Osama bin Laden was beside that he was "some terrorist guy" :sigh: I think that was pretty much the same answer I would have given when I was 13. In 1998. What the hell are schools teaching kids nowadays? I mean, Osama was undoubtedly one of the most important people of 21st century thus far.
.
From -my- childhood....
"Whistle while you work
Hitler is a jerk
Mussolini is a meanie
And the Japs are worse".
learned that about age 5.

[Professor Yaffle]

.
From -my- childhood....
"Whistle while you work
Hitler is a jerk
Mussolini is a meanie
And the Japs are worse".
learned that about age 5.

G1HwKA0J-gU

[JJM 777]

If you're willing to believe that the government is willing and able to stage this raid all for the sake of faking a report
Able? Certainly, any government and a few thousand criminal gangs would be _able_ to stage a raid like that.

Willing? That is a different and potentially uncertain question.

Is Al Queda part of the hoax? Did they issue proclamations of revenge to just go with it? How about the entire armed forces squadron that had to be part of the conspiracy? Do you think a conspiracy this big could be hoaxed?
The best defense against revolution is to lead it. Huge movements can be false flag hoaxes, with everyone else honestly in it except the small leadership.

So you ARE a truther. Thanks for clearing that up.
I am skeptical about the vague evidence. If you have a problem with that, it might make you a believer.

[Belz...]

You know, I always wondered how far conspiracy theorists took the "don't trust the government" rule.

Well, the fact that they're CTers is because they don't trust the government in the first place. They hate it, in fact.

[I Ratant]

Is Al Queda part of the hoax? Did they issue proclamations of revenge to just go with it? How about the entire armed forces squadron that had to be part of the conspiracy? Do you CTwinkies think imagine a conspiracy this big could be hoaxed? That is about as absurd as saying the moon landing was faked.
.
Cleaned it up a bit.
The twinkies don't/can't think.

[Belz...]

I am skeptical about the vague evidence. If you have a problem with that, it might make you a believer.

Ah, how cute.

WTC wreckage was "vague" ?

[I Ratant]

The infamous "Photoshopped" blue-shirt guy shows up in several photographs of the watchers.

[I Ratant]

Jon...
http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mon-may-2-2011/to-kill-a-mockingturd

[Skeptic Ginger]

And how long do you think it would take to get the DNA sample from the site of the assault to a secure military lab to commence the required testing?
DNA testing is quite mobile (http://www.spartanbio.com/products/spartan-dx/) these days.

It only takes a long time when you are dealing with minute samples that must be amplified by PCR.

[I Am The Scum]

Able? Certainly, any government and a few thousand criminal gangs would be _able_ to stage a raid like that.

But wouldn't they also be able to falsify any other potential evidence they might show?

I think you're missing my point, so I'll rephrase: Is there any evidence the government could produce that would convince you that the recent story of Bin Laden's death is true? If so, what would it be?

[Checkmite]

_9bS75JOP_Q

[Skeptic Ginger]

It essentially is. Have you actually read it?Have you read "Against All Enemies" by Richard Clark?

Richard Alan Clarke[1] (born October 27, 1950) was a U.S. government employee for 30 years, 1973–2003. He worked for the State Department during the presidency of Ronald Reagan.[2] In 1992, President George H.W. Bush appointed him to chair the Counter-terrorism Security Group and to a seat on the United States National Security Council. President Bill Clinton retained Clarke and in 1998 promoted him to be the National Coordinator for Security, Infrastructure Protection, and Counter-terrorism, the chief counter-terrorism adviser on the National Security Council. Under President George W. Bush, Clarke initially continued in the same position, but the position was no longer given cabinet-level access. He later became the Special Advisor to the President on cybersecurity, before leaving the Bush Administration in 2003.
Clarke came to widespread public attention for his role as counter-terrorism czar in the Clinton and Bush Administrations in March 2004, when he appeared on the 60 Minutes television news magazine, released his memoir about his service in government, Against All Enemies, and testified before the 9/11 Commission. In all three instances, Clarke was sharply critical of the Bush Administration's attitude toward counter-terrorism before the 9/11 terrorist attacks, and of the decision to go to war with Iraq. Following Clarke's strong criticisms of the Bush Administration, Bush administration officials and other Republicans attempted to discredit him or rebut his criticisms, making Clarke a controversial figure.

Try this memo: January 25, 2001 Richard Clarke Memo: "We urgently need . . . a Principals level review on the al Qida network." (http://www2.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB147/clarke%20memo.pdf)

Rice declined to act.

Conde's rebuttal plus additional related information. (http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB147/index.htm)

And so did Bush decline to take the threat seriously before 9-11.
Ron Suskind, George W. Bush and the Aug. 6, 2001, PDB (http://www.salon.com/news/politics/war_room/2006/06/20/911pdb)Bush to briefer: "All right. You've covered your ass, now."

Transcript of the infamous DPB (http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/04/10/august6.memo/) courtesy of CNN.Nevertheless, FBI information since that time indicates patterns of suspicious activity in this country consistent with preparations for hijackings or other types of attacks, including recent surveillance of federal buildings in New York.

The FBI is conducting approximately 70 full-field investigations throughout the U.S. that it considers bin Laden-related.

"Historical"? :rolleyes: Re-reading it knowing it was one month before 9-11 and Bush did NOTHING except dismiss the memo makes my blood boil.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Sorry for not reading ANYTHING in this thread, a bit busy now.

My feelings about this (legal disclaimer: feelings are not necessarily based on facts or anything else than how it feels):

911 needed a scapegoat, else people would have demanded closer and faster investigation into the strange events of the day than they actually did.

If the scapegoat never existed to begin with, or had nothing to do with it, or was on US side all the time and now lives somewhere after facial surgery, the scapegoat must disappear from the scene sooner or later by other means than being captured and imprisoned. The handy way to do it is to say that you killed him and then threw his body to the sea.

EVIDENCE? None, for ever. Hence my skepticism, for ever.Did you miss the video of Bin Laden gloating?

[Skeptic Ginger]

Is there a reason why you choose the default position of believing a governing structure that has repeatedly lied to you?I'm not aware NASA has been exposed lying to the American public. They may have been ordered to stop talking about global warming and the Big Bang, but they never resorted to lying when that happened.

You really need to find a palate with narrower brushes. If our government were that cohesive we be in big trouble.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Jon...
http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mon-may-2-2011/to-kill-a-mockingturd

Those movie titles were great.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Current news brief: Woman killed in crossfire, not as a shield. Second woman shot in leg, not killed, had "rushed" the Seals and was in the same room as Bin Laden. Sounds like they could have taken Bin Laden alive and either didn't intend to or were acting too quickly and assumed Bin Laden was going for, or had a weapon. I think the latter is a reasonable scenario.

[Skeptic Ginger]

_9bS75JOP_Q"I YouTube, You decide." I like that. :D

[NotJesus]

There is a cricket ground over the road from the compound. Probably someone stumbled on the secret when they were trying to get a ball back. You heard it here first....Osama discovered due to an excellent long drive back over the bowlers head...

I always suspected that cricket must have some purpose. Never knew what it was until now.

[I Ratant]

Those movie titles were great.
.
The Daily Show has great graphics editors! :)

[Pardalis]

Hence my skepticism, for ever.

That's not skepticism, it's denialism.

[GregHouseMD]

Current news brief: Woman killed in crossfire, not as a shield. Second woman shot in leg, not killed, had "rushed" the Seals and was in the same room as Bin Laden. Sounds like they could have taken Bin Laden alive and either didn't intend to or were acting too quickly and assumed Bin Laden was going for, or had a weapon. I think the latter is a reasonable scenario.


How many 40 minute gun fights have you been in? What makes you think a man like OBL would surrender?

Do you think that anyone in his position would just give up because some heavily armed men who were shooting everyone in sight said "Freeze!"?

Considering the mind set of terrorists, killing every thing they can, even themselves, why would they throw up their hands and ask for mercy?

This was a military operation, not a police raid seeking to serve an arrest warrant.

And despite the nearly ten years since 9/11, NO insiders have stepped forward to admit their collusion in the attacks yet truthers still exist?

Wow.

[I Am The Scum]

And despite the nearly ten years since 9/11, NO insiders have stepped forward to admit their collusion in the attacks yet truthers still exist?

Wow.

Ummm.... Skeptic Ginger's not a truther. I apologize if that was not your claim, but it sure seemed to be what you were implying.

[Pardalis]

Sounds like they could have taken Bin Laden alive and either didn't intend to or were acting too quickly and assumed Bin Laden was going for, or had a weapon. I think the latter is a reasonable scenario.

I think the intent was to go in and kill him. At least that's what I heard. I don't think they had any intention of taking him alive.

[Belz...]

I think the intent was to go in and kill him.

That's how I understand it as well. I don't think they wanted him alive.

[Seismosaurus]

So they released the photo of him.

It's... well about half his head is missing.

They don't mess about when they make modern weapons, do they?

Edited to add : Dangit, I got taken in by a fake. Sorry.

[leftysergeant]

_9bS75JOP_QLike we needed more evidence that BillO is a moron...

[JFrankA]

Hey! Did you all hear about the new item in Pet Stores everywhere??



http://forums.randi.org/picture.php?albumid=261&pictureid=4507

[manofthesea]

I would have liked to see him brought before the American justice system to answer for his accusations. Having him sit in the defendant's stand to face the families of those killed in 9/11. I think our prosecutors could have got a conviction. Then send him to the gallows if guilty. This way of executing him without a trial is cheap in my eyes.

I guess convenience is the overriding factor nowadays.

But hey, I'm all for wars.

[Virus]

Able? Certainly, any government and a few thousand criminal gangs would be _able_ to stage a raid like that.

Willing? That is a different and potentially uncertain question.


The best defense against revolution is to lead it. Huge movements can be false flag hoaxes, with everyone else honestly in it except the small leadership.


I am skeptical about the vague evidence. If you have a problem with that, it might make you a believer.

Thanks for outing yourself. Comes in handy.

[LTC8K6]

It's a good thing they didn't give him a bloody lip. That got a SEAL team court martialed not long ago...

[JihadJane]

If you're willing to believe that the government is willing and able to stage this raid all for the sake of faking a report on Bin Laden's death, then you're also willing to believe that they would fake any other evidence they might have offered. Photos? Photoshopped. DNA? Falsified report. Video? Staged. "Bin Laden's" body? Surgically altered burkah salesman.

By his logic, the moon landing was a hoax as well.Is there a reason why you choose the default position of believing a governing structure that has repeatedly lied to you?

wow.

Quoted for posterity.


EXTRACT:

Hours later, other administration officials were clarifying Brennan's account. Turns out the woman that was killed on the compound wasn't bin Laden's wife. Bin Laden may have not even been using a human shield. And he might not have even been holding a gun.

Politico's Josh Gerstein adds: "The White House backed away Monday evening from key details in its narrative about the raid that killed Osama bin Laden, including claims by senior U.S. officials that the Al Qaeda leader had a weapon and may have fired it during a gun battle with U.S. forces." Gerstein added: "a senior White House official said bin Laden was not armed when he was killed."

/EXTRACT

'In bin Laden killing, media -- as usual -- regurgitates false Government claims'

http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2011/05/03/propaganda_bin_laden

[Aepervius]

Current news brief: Woman killed in crossfire, not as a shield. Second woman shot in leg, not killed, had "rushed" the Seals and was in the same room as Bin Laden. Sounds like they could have taken Bin Laden alive and either didn't intend to or were acting too quickly and assumed Bin Laden was going for, or had a weapon. I think the latter is a reasonable scenario.

It seems the latest news is that he had no weapon vut was killed because he "resisted" whatever that means.


U.S. forces then moved upstairs where they found bin Laden in a room with a woman believed to be his wife -- both unarmed, Carney said. She rushed the U.S. forces and was shot in the leg but not killed. Bin Laden resisted and was shot and killed, Carney said

That will certainly put oil on the fire. Some people already questionning the legitimacy of the killing (said on tv "executing" which is quite a loaded word; i hope i misheard as i was doing somethign else at the same tiem) especially on the legitimacy of the "war on terrorism". That is not new mind you as targeted "assassination" were already seen as bad.

*shrug* it now devolve in the usual (fully non-interrresting for me) political circus so count me out on speaking more about that.

[Cain]

I find it difficult to believe that Obama gave this order. Here's what really happened: Someone in the military headed the operation -- a Republican, most likely -- and when it was a fait accompli, Obama swept in and took the credit (as usual).

[Furcifer]

That's how I understand it as well. I don't think they wanted him alive.

I disagree. There's a difference between wanting him dead and not caring.

They had intelligence and I'm sure they knew he was being guarded by armed men. In the off chance they would have surrendered I think he'd be alive today. When they decided to go in like they did someone must have given the go ahead knowing he was most likely not coming out alive.

[I Am The Scum]

EXTRACT:

Hours later, other administration officials were clarifying Brennan's account. Turns out the woman that was killed on the compound wasn't bin Laden's wife. Bin Laden may have not even been using a human shield. And he might not have even been holding a gun.

Politico's Josh Gerstein adds: "The White House backed away Monday evening from key details in its narrative about the raid that killed Osama bin Laden, including claims by senior U.S. officials that the Al Qaeda leader had a weapon and may have fired it during a gun battle with U.S. forces." Gerstein added: "a senior White House official said bin Laden was not armed when he was killed."

/EXTRACT

'In bin Laden killing, media -- as usual -- regurgitates false Government claims'

http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2011/05/03/propaganda_bin_laden

Are you even familiar with the discussion you're commenting on? Nobody is denying that some of the details surrounding the event are probably not 100% accurate, and I'm sure most would agree that there are many more details to come. But there's a world of difference between inaccuracies in the details, and the entirety of the story being a hoax.

You appear to be engaging in the false dichotomy very common among conspiracy theorists: You either believe that it's all a cover-up, a hoax, false flag, etc., or you believe everything the government tells you.

[PhreePhly]

My understanding, from friends who have served in special forces, that a "kill mission" is one where the killing is not questioned. There will be no hearings afterwards regarding "unjustified" or preventable, or any other worries for the operator. It is known by all players that people will die and that the SP operatives are to take out any and all threats. Any show of resistance will be met with deadly force.

If Osama were found on his knees, hands on his head, and saying very clearly in English that he is not resisting, he may have been captured and not killed, but even then, there is no guarantee.

Was there an element of revenge, possibly, but these operators are very well trained and suprising able to maintain a pretty even keel, particularly in these kinds of fire-fights. Chances are very good that Osama had no plans to go quietly and paid the price while resisting.

[Pardalis]

Are you even familiar with the discussion you're commenting on? Nobody is denying that some of the details surrounding the event are probably not 100% accurate, and I'm sure most would agree that there are many more details to come. But there's a world of difference between inaccuracies in the details, and the entirety of the story being a hoax.

You appear to be engaging in the false dichotomy very common among conspiracy theorists: You either believe that it's all a cover-up, a hoax, false flag, etc., or you believe everything the government tells you.

That's how conspiracy theorists work. You're spot-on.

They expect 100% accuracy right from the start. And years later, they go back to the earliest reports, show the inconsistencies therein (and ignore the later reports that correct the mistakes), and say: "you see? They LIED!", and use that as proof of a conspiracy.

They don't understand that news get more furnished and more detailed as time goes buy, the more we learn about an event the better the information becomes, holes are filled and errors are corrected. Early reports are not 100% reliable, but that's what CTers count on.

[Ziggurat]

I find it difficult to believe that Obama gave this order. Here's what really happened: Someone in the military headed the operation -- a Republican, most likely -- and when it was a fait accompli, Obama swept in and took the credit (as usual).

No. That's quite plainly NOT what happened. The fact that we've got official whitehouse photos of Obama and other senior staff watching the operation live pretty much negates that possibility.

And given that it was not actually guaranteed that Osama was even there, it's simply not credible that the military would approve a mission to invade another country without presidential authorization. Nobody in the command structure is going to want to take the blame for a decision like that if things went south, if Osama wasn't there and if they encountered resistance from Pakistani military. The military wouldn't tolerate it within their own ranks either, and for good reason: that would essentially destroy the very notion of civilian control of the military, and that is DEEPLY unAmerican.

I'm not a fan of Obama, but this is crazy conspiracy talk here.

[Skeptic Ginger]

How many 40 minute gun fights have you been in? What makes you think a man like OBL would surrender?

Do you think that anyone in his position would just give up because some heavily armed men who were shooting everyone in sight said "Freeze!"?

Considering the mind set of terrorists, killing every thing they can, even themselves, why would they throw up their hands and ask for mercy?

This was a military operation, not a police raid seeking to serve an arrest warrant.

And despite the nearly ten years since 9/11, NO insiders have stepped forward to admit their collusion in the attacks yet truthers still exist?

Wow.I suggest you read my post more carefully, Wow indeed. :rolleyes:

[Skeptic Ginger]

Ummm.... Skeptic Ginger's not a truther. I apologize if that was not your claim, but it sure seemed to be what you were implying.

Clearly he read something else in my post than was actually in my post.

[Skeptic Ginger]

I think the intent was to go in and kill him. At least that's what I heard. I don't think they had any intention of taking him alive.

That's what you heard from whom? Surely no one in a position to know has said anything of the kind.

[Skeptic Ginger]

That's how I understand it as well. I don't think they wanted him alive.

It's reasonable to speculate, but it is odd that people are claiming they have "heard" or they "understand" as if the fact is out there.

[Skeptic Ginger]

I find it difficult to believe that Obama gave this order. Here's what really happened: Someone in the military headed the operation -- a Republican, most likely -- and when it was a fait accompli, Obama swept in and took the credit (as usual).

Poe's Law? Or are you that partisan?

[Pardalis]

That's what you heard from whom? Surely no one in a position to know has said anything of the kind.

My mistake, it turns out the WH security adviser said the opposite, that if they had had the opportunity to take him alive, they would have.

http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program/WhiteHouseDailyBriefing1642

[I Ratant]

That's how I understand it as well. I don't think they wanted him alive.
.
Keeping it alive would put everyone involved at a much greater risk.
Best off dead.

[Bob001]

Today's reports seem to indicate that Bin Laden "resisted" capture, but didn't actually have his hand on a weapon, although resisting could certainly mean that he was reaching for one. We will never know whether he might have been taken alive. I doubt that SEALs carry Tasers and pepper spray. Subject for discussion/speculation: If Bin Laden HAD been captured alive, what should have happened to him? Guantanamo forever? Military tribunal? Civilian court? Immediate execution? At least one commentator suggested that he should have been turned over to a country where his bombings caused countless Muslim victims, like Indonesia or Kenya, and where justice would likely have been swift and sure without any allegation that the U.S. was making him a martyr. Personally, I think a military tribunal after interrogation might have revealed some useful information, and pictures of him in an orange jumpsuit and chains would have been compelling.

[Olowkow]

That's not skepticism, it's denialism.

Yes. The result of too much Bush, Nixon, Agnew, Cheney, Libby, Palin, Bachman, Limbaugh, Beck, Gingrich, Trump ad infinitum...liars and crazies who have distorted beyond reason the accepted meaning of reality. I'd guess that given these dubious giddy twits as their heroes, they would not hesitate to suspect any politician or commentator of dishonesty. Obama is a different class of person however...a very intelligent guy, who values the truth and does not disrespect the average citizen, much as one cannot lump Eric Severeid or Walter Chronkite with the Limbaughs, O'Reilleys or Becks.

[Pardalis]

Namedropping is not an argument.

[Ausmerican]

No. That's quite plainly NOT what happened. The fact that we've got official whitehouse photos of Obama and other senior staff watching the operation live pretty much negates that possibility.

And given that it was not actually guaranteed that Osama was even there, it's simply not credible that the military would approve a mission to invade another country without presidential authorization. Nobody in the command structure is going to want to take the blame for a decision like that if things went south, if Osama wasn't there and if they encountered resistance from Pakistani military. The military wouldn't tolerate it within their own ranks either, and for good reason: that would essentially destroy the very notion of civilian control of the military, and that is DEEPLY unAmerican.

I'm not a fan of Obama, but this is crazy conspiracy talk here.

Zig, it's Cain. You should now by now that NONE of his posts are to be taken seriously. He is a typing satire machine.

[Ausmerican]

As far as taking him alive goes:
Officials described the reaction of the special operators when they were told a number of weeks ago that they had been chosen to train for the mission.

“They were told, ‘We think we found Osama bin Laden, and your job is to kill him,’” an official recalled.

The SEALs started to cheer.

Not that that is official of course.

From here:
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0511/54151.html

[mortimer]

Here's a question for those more familiar with the U.S. Special Forces. Why the SEALs and not one of the other special forces units?

[BeAChooser]

Obama is a different class of person however...a very intelligent guy, who values the truth and does not disrespect the average citizen, much as one cannot lump Eric Severeid or Walter Chronkite with the Limbaughs, O'Reilleys or Becks.

LOL! That statement is so naive and so uninformed, on sooo many levels, that it says more about you than Obama or Limbaugh or O'Reilley or Beck. :D

[PhreePhly]

Here's a question for those more familiar with the U.S. Special Forces. Why the SEALs and not one of the other special forces units?

Well, according to my buddy (former SEAL), they're better ;) Actually, his comment was that for this type of mission, SEAL (and Force Recon) are a better choice. If you have a hostage type situation, or you are looking to infiltrate and blend in, Delta Force and Rangers are the better choice. He also said that SEAL Team Six is exceptional at this kind of work. These are the guys that have stood out from the rest of the Teams.

Edit: Replaced Green Beret with Rangers. Green Berets are not usually used in counter-terrorism activities, that is more Rangers and, of course, Delta Force.

[Belz...]

'In bin Laden killing, media -- as usual -- regurgitates false Government claims'

More like the media -- as usual -- broadcasts information before it verifies its validity.

[I Ratant]

My understanding, from friends who have served in special forces, that a "kill mission" is one where the killing is not questioned. There will be no hearings afterwards regarding "unjustified" or preventable, or any other worries for the operator. It is known by all players that people will die and that the SP operatives are to take out any and all threats. Any show of resistance will be met with deadly force.

...
.
A Vietnam vet told me of missions he was on, where the caterpillar tractors to be used to dig the trenches for everyone killed were part of the attack team.

[Belz...]

I find it difficult to believe that Obama gave this order. Here's what really happened: Someone in the military headed the operation -- a Republican, most likely -- and when it was a fait accompli, Obama swept in and took the credit (as usual).

And you know this how ?

[Belz...]

It's reasonable to speculate, but it is odd that people are claiming they have "heard" or they "understand" as if the fact is out there.

That's how I understand it FROM THIS THREAD, Ginger.

Glad to see you're in your usual intolerable mood.

[Emet]

Here's a question for those more familiar with the U.S. Special Forces. Why the SEALs and not one of the other special forces units?

Looks like they're one of the top two:

Subordinate Commands

Joint Special Operations Command
(...)
Units

The Army 1st Special Forces Operational Detachment-Delta (Combat Applications Group (CAG), Delta Force) is the first of the two primary counter-terrorist units of JSOC and SOCOM.[45] Modeled after the British Special Operations force Special Air Service, Delta is arguably one of the best SOF in the world.[46] This is because of Delta's stringent training and selection process. Delta recruits primarily from the most talented and highly skilled operators in the Army Special Forces and the 75th Ranger Regiment although CAG will take anyone and everyone that can pass their screening.[23][46] Recruits must pass a rigid selection course before beginning training. Delta has received training from numerous U.S. government agencies and other tier one SOF and has created a curriculum based on this training and techniques that it has developed.[46] Delta conducts clandestine and covert special operations all over the world.[46] It has the capability to conduct a myriad of special operations missions but specializes in counter-terrorism and hostage rescue operations.[23][45][47]

Naval Special Warfare Development Group (DEVGRU, SEAL Team 6) is the second of the two primary counter-terrorist units of JSOC and SOCOM.[45] DEVGRU is the Naval Special Warfare's counter-part to Delta. Like Delta, DEVGRU recruits the best operators from the best units in its branch, the Navy SEALs. DEVGRU is also capable of performing any type of special operations mission, but trains especially for maritime counter-terrorist operations.[23][45]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Special_Operations_Command#Subordina te_Commands

[Polaris]

That's how I understand it as well. I don't think they wanted him alive.

Considering how the founder of SEAL Team Six has stated in print more than once that he did not intend for his shooters to bring terrorists back alive, that's probably accurate.

[steve s]

Sarah Palin can't bring herself to thank Obama by name...

“And we thank our president. ... We thank President Bush for having made the right calls to set up this victory.”

http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-pn-palin-bin-laden-remarks-20110503,0,4220829.story
At about 47 seconds into the video.

You'd think Bush was still prez the way she says it. Obama could cure cancer and she'd find a way to give Bush credit.

Steve S

[GregHouseMD]

Ummm.... Skeptic Ginger's not a truther. I apologize if that was not your claim, but it sure seemed to be what you were implying.

I was not trying to paint anyone one person as a truther, the fact that some still exists is what floors me.

I can see how using that quote and adding the line about truthers sounds like I was pointing a finger at Ginger.

[Skeptical Greg]

My mistake, it turns out the WH security adviser said the opposite, that if they had had the opportunity to take him alive, they would have.

http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program/WhiteHouseDailyBriefing1642What opportunity.. Like if they forgot to bring bullets ?

[Cain]

And you know this how ?

I saw in the comments section of a conservative blog.

[GregHouseMD]

EXTRACT:

Hours later, other administration officials were clarifying Brennan's account. Turns out the woman that was killed on the compound wasn't bin Laden's wife. Bin Laden may have not even been using a human shield. And he might not have even been holding a gun.

Politico's Josh Gerstein adds: "The White House backed away Monday evening from key details in its narrative about the raid that killed Osama bin Laden, including claims by senior U.S. officials that the Al Qaeda leader had a weapon and may have fired it during a gun battle with U.S. forces." Gerstein added: "a senior White House official said bin Laden was not armed when he was killed."

/EXTRACT

'In bin Laden killing, media -- as usual -- regurgitates false Government claims'

http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2011/05/03/propaganda_bin_laden

What false claims, the part where they admitted some early accounts were wrong?

HOW DARE THEY ADMIT THE TRUTH!

Oh and you left out some good parts. Well I think they are good. It's not them admitting they made a mistake and correcting it but it's significant.

One of bin Laden's wives tried to rush the commandos and was shot in the leg. High temperatures caused a lumbering helicopter carrying the raiders to make a hard landing. And as Navy SEALs swept through the compound, they handcuffed those they encountered with plastic zip ties and pressed on in pursuit of their target, code-named Geronimo.

Once bin Laden had been shot, they doubled back to move the prisoners away from the compound before blowing up the downed helicopter.



So they admitted they released incorrect info, then cleared it up. Regretible but not really unusual. Even Liberals get things wrong and then issue corrections.

You mention the fact that OBL was uinarmed when shot, why not also mention that they safely secured and protected non combatants during the raid. Something that would be extremely dangerous to the operators in the middle of a firefight.

[WildCat]

Far better to kill him than capture him, who knows how many people would have been kidnapped/killed by OBL sympathizers demanding his release. Best they can get now is the location where the fish were fed.

[Mister Earl]

Far better to kill him than capture him, who knows how many people would have been kidnapped/killed by OBL sympathizers demanding his release. Best they can get now is the location where the fish were fed.

I was thinking the crabs would be doing the bulk of the decommissioning work.

[The Fool]

Far better to kill him than capture him, who knows how many people would have been kidnapped/killed by OBL sympathizers demanding his release. Best they can get now is the location where the fish were fed.
Don't often agree with you mate but this time its 100%.

I wouldn't even be releasing whereabouts his body was thrown overboard. He needs to vanish....dead and permanently gone.....best result possible. No graves to become shrines for wackjobs.

[BenBurch]

I find it difficult to believe that Obama gave this order. Here's what really happened: Someone in the military headed the operation -- a Republican, most likely -- and when it was a fait accompli, Obama swept in and took the credit (as usual).

Conspiracy theories are in their own topic. Kthxbai.

[BenBurch]

I was thinking the crabs would be doing the bulk of the decommissioning work.

Hagfish are what I was hoping for.

[BenBurch]

Don't often agree with you mate but this time its 100%.

I wouldn't even be releasing whereabouts his body was thrown overboard. He needs to vanish....dead and permanently gone.....best result possible. No graves to become shrines for wackjobs.

Amen.

[MattusMaximus]

Here's a question for those more familiar with the U.S. Special Forces. Why the SEALs and not one of the other special forces units?

It wasn't just any SEAL team, it was SEAL Team Six - apparently they are the cream of the crop even among SEAL teams.

I'm operating under the assumption that there was a big poker game a few months back, with representatives from the Rangers, SEALS, Green Berets, and so on around the table. Looks to me like the SEAL rep went "all in" and won the pot :)

[Mister Earl]

Don't often agree with you mate but this time its 100%.

I wouldn't even be releasing whereabouts his body was thrown overboard. He needs to vanish....dead and permanently gone.....best result possible. No graves to become shrines for wackjobs.

And agreed as well. With the body buried at sea, there's no shrines, no holy relics, no recruiting tool, no backdrop for motivational videos. Nothing. The only ones that directly benefit from that burial location are the crabs. And the hagfish. :D

[BenBurch]

It wasn't just any SEAL team, it was SEAL Team Six - apparently they are the cream of the crop even among SEAL teams.

I'm operating under the assumption that there was a big poker game a few months back, with representatives from the Rangers, SEALS, Green Berets, and so on around the table. Looks to me like the SEAL rep went "all in" and won the pot :)

I'm just glad they all made it back. OBL was not worth one more drop of American blood.

[dtugg]

It wasn't just any SEAL team, it was SEAL Team Six - apparently they are the cream of the crop even among SEAL teams.

I'm operating under the assumption that there was a big poker game a few months back, with representatives from the Rangers, SEALS, Green Berets, and so on around the table. Looks to me like the SEAL rep went "all in" and won the pot :)

Yeah they are most definitely badass. Anybody interested in its history should read Marcinko's (founder/first commanding officer) book.

For a misson like this it was really only down to SEAL Team Six or Delta. Why the SEALs got the job, I dunno.

[geni]

And agreed as well. With the body buried at sea, there's no shrines, no holy relics, no recruiting tool, no backdrop for motivational videos.

Osama's branch of islam would be rather opposed to all that. The diplomatic issues around finding somewhere to bury him would have been more of a problem.

[John Jones]

Here's a question for those more familiar with the U.S. Special Forces. Why the SEALs and not one of the other special forces units?

"If they had let the Marine Corps loose in Pakistan, the Marines would have killed the entire nation! Pakistan would no longer be in your daddy's dictionary! Do you ladies understand that?" - Senior Drill Instructor Hartman.

[leftysergeant]

Yeah they are most definitely badass. Anybody interested in its history should read Marcinko's (founder/first commanding officer) book.

For a misson like this it was really only down to SEAL Team Six or Delta. Why the SEALs got the job, I dunno.They could be deployed from naval vessels that woulld have seemed inconspicuous would be my guess.

[Skeptic Ginger]

That's how I understand it FROM THIS THREAD, Ginger.

Glad to see you're in your usual intolerable mood.

So this thread is your evidence?

I don't tolerate unsubstantiated claims of fact. The first supposed actual evidence it was a kill mission not a capture or kill was the rumor in Ausmerican's Politico link, "an official recalled". It was posted after your statement of 'understanding'.

[dtugg]

They could be deployed from naval vessels that woulld have seemed inconspicuous would be my guess.

Weren't they deployed from Afghanistan, which is much closer to this place than the ocean?

[John Jones]

So this thread is your evidence?

I don't tolerate unsubstantiated claims of fact. The first supposed actual evidence it was a kill mission not a capture or kill was the rumor in Ausmerican's Politico link, "an official recalled". It was posted after your statement of 'understanding'.


I haven't heard any official deny that it was a kill mission. Is that point in dispute?

[Skeptic Ginger]

Considering how the founder of SEAL Team Six has stated in print more than once that he did not intend for his shooters to bring terrorists back alive, that's probably accurate.
"The founder"? This is nothing more than a rumor posted as if it were a fact. Where's your link? What is the name of this "founder"? What makes him a founder?

[UNLoVedRebel]

Yeah, if you don't want to discuss issues on an issues discussing forum maybe you should just turn off your computer.Keep it on topic (bin Laden's death) and don't tell me what to do.

[leftysergeant]

Weren't they deployed from Afghanistan, which is much closer to this place than the ocean?I would not have wantred to hold him in Afghanistan had he been taken alive. Get him out of mortar range ASAP. Somebody might have tried to get him back

[dtugg]

"The founder"? This is nothing more than a rumor posted as if it were a fact. Where's your link? What is the name of this "founder"? What makes him a founder?

Richard Marcinko is the founder. What makes him the founder is that he was personally involved in the formation of the team, personally trained them, and was the commanding officer. Read his book.

I dunno if he said this but he probably did.

[Skeptic Ginger]

I haven't heard any official deny that it was a kill mission. Is that point in dispute?Obama and all top officials interviewed publicly said it was capture if you can, kill if you need to.

Stuff on the net starts out as made up, progresses to being called a rumor and by the time it is posted twice more it begins to be cited as a fact.

This is one of those made up 'facts'.

I totally agree it is possible it was a kill order. It could even have been a, catch him alive, but kill him if you need to, wink wink, order. But let's keep speculation separate from "facts" please. At least in this forum.

Coincidentally, Rachel Maddow is citing a dozen false statements in the "evolving story" at this very minute. Now she's playing the news accounts with multiple contradictory "facts". That would be consistent with my experience of the news media filling in all sorts of missing pieces in the story not given to them with their own facts.

The segment is titled, "Faux Sure", (pronounced "fo sure" for those who didn't know).

[dtugg]

I would not have wantred to hold him in Afghanistan had he been taken alive. Get him out of mortar range ASAP. Somebody might have tried to get him back

They didn't hold him there for long, probably not even long enough for anybody to know he was dead. But it seems he went there before he went to the USS Carl Vinson.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Richard Marcinko is the founder. What makes him the founder is that he was personally involved in the formation of the team, personally trained them, and was the commanding officer. Read his book.

I dunno if he said this but he probably did.So Richard Marcinko in his book or on his radio show, "has stated in print more than once that he did not intend for his shooters to bring terrorists back alive," according to Polaris and this is evidence the mission Sunday included a kill directive?

I don't find the description of someone about his Seal group to be definitive in this case.

SEAL Team Six
During the Iran Hostage Crisis in 1979, Marcinko was one of two Navy representatives for a Joint Chiefs of Staff task force known as the TAT (Terrorist Action Team). The purpose of the TAT was to develop a plan to free the American hostages held in Iran which culminated in Operation Eagle Claw. In the wake of the operation's disaster, the Navy saw the need for a full-time dedicated Counter-Terrorist Team and tasked Marcinko with its design and development.
Marcinko was the first commanding officer of this new unit which he named SEAL Team Six. At the time, the US Navy had only two SEAL teams. Marcinko purportedly named the unit Team Six in order to confuse other nations into believing that the United States had three other SEAL teams that they were unaware of. The men in the unit were handpicked by Marcinko himself from across the US Navy's Special Operations community. SEAL Team Six would be known as the US Navy's premier counter-terrorist unit; being compared to the US Army's Delta Force.[1][2] Marcinko held the command of SEAL Team Six for three years from 1980-1983 instead of what was typically a two-year command in the Navy at the time.[3]That's 3 decades ago!!!!!

[BenBurch]

Wow.

Osama used a woman as a human shield?

That's what I just read.

And I thought I hated the man before now. Now I realize that I hadn't even begun to hate the guy.

You know, a warrior, a fighter in something he believes in; You have to have some respect for him, and that is healthy because it means you will take him seriously.

But I just lost that respect.

This was not a warrior's death.

This was not a martyr's death.

This was a yellow dog's death.

[leftysergeant]

And agreed as well. With the body buried at sea, there's no shrines, no holy relics, no recruiting tool, no backdrop for motivational videos. Nothing. The only ones that directly benefit from that burial location are the crabs. And the hagfish. :DMost important, the Muslim world knows that we are not doing ghastly ghoulish things with the body and showing some respect for Islam even if not for OBL.

We even gave Ted Bundy and McVeigh a decent burial.

We're supposed to be the more civilized side, I was thinking.

[LTC8K6]

No, he did not...of course, with the number of times the story of this op has changed, you may be correct again in a day or two.

[The Fool]

Most important, the Muslim world knows that we are not doing ghastly ghoulish things with the body and showing some respect for Islam even if not for OBL.

We even gave Ted Bundy and McVeigh a decent burial.

We're supposed to be the more civilized side, I was thinking.
yes. I know....but......couldn't they just tow him behind the ship as a fleet gunnery target for a few hours before they cut him adrift?


anyway, I've not checked the osama threads for a while, Have they posted any upodate on his condition? is he stilll dead?

[elgarak]

Not clear what happened exactly.

According to the latest White House statements, (one of) Usama's wives was in between the SEALs and Usama. Whether she herself, Usama or another person placed her there, dunno. However, she seemed to have identified Usama by name, and 'rushed' towards the SEALs. They shot her in the leg, clearing the shot for Usama. She was left alive, and seems to be now in custody by Pakistan's intelligence service ISI.

Obviously, the SEALs had their priorities straight -- Hooyah!

[EGarrett]

I'm wondering what the lighting situation was, since it was 1AM. Did they do this raid with the lights out in the house? Were they under helicopter lights coming through the windows? Were they using night-vision goggles?

[thaiboxerken]

Wow. Some nut jobs are out there saying that killing Osama was the wrong thing to do because it will cause the terrorists to hate us so much that they'll want to kill us..................

[MaGZ]

I have never believed in this Human Shield propaganda that is constantly use against Arabs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acaU4D6dUqU

[NoahFence]

Wow.

Osama used a woman as a human shield?

That's what I just read.

And I thought I hated the man before now. Now I realize that I hadn't even begun to hate the guy.

You know, a warrior, a fighter in something he believes in; You have to have some respect for him, and that is healthy because it means you will take him seriously.

But I just lost that respect.

This was not a warrior's death.

This was not a martyr's death.

This was a yellow dog's death.

He was in death as terrorists are in life. Cowards.

[NoahFence]

Has Mark Burnette started production on the new reality TV series "The Next Top Terrorist" yet?

[NoahFence]

yes. I know....but......couldn't they just tow him behind the ship as a fleet gunnery target for a few hours before they cut him adrift?


anyway, I've not checked the osama threads for a while, Have they posted any upodate on his condition? is he stilll dead?

You know, filling him full of lead would certainly have made the trip to the bottom a bit quicker. Good for the fishies.

[Olowkow]

Namedropping is not an argument.

I don't follow what you mean here. My point was to agree with you that the poster you responded to was in denial, rather than exercising skepticism.

I suspect that a lot of the conservatives are so used to being apologists for crooks and liars, but just putting up with it, that they assume that pretty much everyone is operating with ulterior motives even in the face of evidence to the contrary.

[Olowkow]

LOL! That statement is so naive and so uninformed, on sooo many levels, that it says more about you than Obama or Limbaugh or O'Reilley or Beck. :D

Umm, well yes it probably does, since it is what we often call a personal opinion. Your point?

[BeAChooser]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/al-qaeda/8489866/WikiLeaks-Bin-Ladens-courier-trained-911-hijack-team.html


WikiLeaks: Bin Laden's courier 'trained 9/11 hijack team'

… snip …

For the past two years, American spies had been monitoring the courier, known as Abu Ahmed al-Kuwaiti, after learning his name four years ago, according to US officials.

… snip …

The file for the Guantanamo detainee, Muhammad Mani al-Qahtani, who was to have been the "20th hijacker" on 9/11, contains a reference to the key US intelligence thread that led directly to bin Laden.

… snip ...

The file suggests that the courier’s identity was provided to the US by another key source, the al-Qaida facilitator Hassan Ghul, who was captured in Iraq in 2004 and interrogated by the CIA.


Gee … you mean we learned where Osama was hiding by capturing a guy IN IRAQ and NOT reading him his Miranda rights? :D

[BeAChooser]

Your point?

LOL! You really need me to spell out my point? :rolleyes:

[Howie Felterbush]

anyway, I've not checked the osama threads for a while, Have they posted any upodate on his condition? is he stilll dead?

'He's been upgraded to "mostly dead" with "little sign of improvement".

[Kumar]

Destructive entities can get such fate. Nuclear preferances, more damaging arms & tools, intiating & manipulating fights for vesting interests, egoistic superiority complexes, creating destructive tools, creating disharmony & imbalances(nature imbalance etc.)or otherse odd, can also be considered as destructing entities & tools, unless "nature balances itself" is on way due to previous excesses/odds.

[Olowkow]

LOL! You really need me to spell out my point? :rolleyes:
Only if you can, and it is not a great inconvenience. To be honest, I don't care, but I'm trying to be polite.

[Noztradamus]

Wow.

Osama used a woman as a human shield?

That's what I just read.


~~~~





That's what Jay Carney said. once (maybe twice) (so far)

[Skeptic]

It's amazing how many of the "reasonable" folks here have now been shown to be truthers in disguise, as in "everything the government says is a lie, a lie, I tell ya!".

[BeAChooser]

I'm trying to be polite.

Oh. Is that what you were trying to be when you wrote "The result of too much Bush, Nixon, Agnew, Cheney, Libby, Palin, Bachman, Limbaugh, Beck, Gingrich, Trump ad infinitum...liars and crazies who have distorted beyond reason the accepted meaning of reality." Polite? :rolleyes:

[MattusMaximus]

Wow. Some nut jobs are out there saying that killing Osama was the wrong thing to do because it will cause the terrorists to hate us so much that they'll want to kill us..................

Yeah, that's among the most stupid things I've ever heard :rolleyes:

[BeAChooser]

http://washingtonexaminer.com/politics/2011/05/get-bin-laden-obama-relied-policies-he-decried


To get bin Laden, Obama relied on policies he decried

… snip …

For one thing, it apparently would not have happened without those infamous enhanced interrogation techniques -- "torture," according to critics of the Bush administration.

The enhanced interrogation techniques reportedly led to identification of the courier who eventually led our forces to bin Laden's hiding place. Critics of waterboarding and other enhanced interrogation techniques assured us that "torture" could not produce reliable information.

… snip …

It has also been reported that in hunting down bin Laden our forces relied on intercepted communications. I wonder if any of them included contacts between suspected terrorists abroad and persons in the United States.
This was the "domestic wiretapping" revealed to great acclaim by the New York Times and presented as an intolerable infringement of civil liberties. … snip …

Obama deserves credit also for employing the Navy SEALs who are part of the Joint Special Operations Command. It was fashionable a few years ago to call the JSOC Cheney's death squad and Cheney's assassination team.

… snip …

There was criticism as well of the idea of targeting particular individuals for assassination. But in ordering the raid on bin Laden's compound Obama authorized the killing of bin Laden. And no Miranda warnings first.

… snip …

Finally, let us note that this was a unilateral operation. Obama didn't go to the United Nations Security Council. He didn't, so far as we know, consult NATO allies. He took care not to inform the government of Pakistan … snip …

For years we heard supposedly enlightened people excoriate our leaders for torture, lawlessness, unilateralism -- the list goes on and on. Now the president they have wanted has used the tactics and methods they excoriated to get bin Laden. Good for him.


:D

[Kumar]

Yeah, that's among the most stupid things I've ever heard :rolleyes:

Btw, Who created OBL? Manytimes things can be persued naturally to achieve nature's balance or due to nature balances itself on excess of imbalance on either side. Creation, maintainance & destruction are three tools, to keep or bring the things in order or balance...so the Trinity in Hinduism---so the angels & devils.

[Pardalis]

Btw, Who created OBL?

His parents.

Got anymore of those?

[Polaris]

So Richard Marcinko in his book or on his radio show, "has stated in print more than once that he did not intend for his shooters to bring terrorists back alive," according to Polaris and this is evidence the mission Sunday included a kill directive?

I don't find the description of someone about his Seal group to be definitive in this case.

That's 3 decades ago!!!!!

From your own link, Marcinko hand-picked the original members of SEAL Team 6 and named it as well. I never claimed that his statement indicated a kill directive, even if that's what you're reading into it. I do think that it's not unlikely that the founder's personal philosophy would be imprinted upon that organization - knowing a few SEALs myself, admittedly this is anecdotal, Marcinko holds a legendary status.

Oh, and here's the quote (language NSFW):

http://books.google.com/books?id=TYkUYLy61GYC&pg=PA15&lpg=PA15&dq=richard+marcinko+bring+terrorists+back+alive&source=bl&ots=_SJd9jArYB&sig=c06tV-zZUaPT72C1xyb7xDFvFNQ&hl=en&ei=iNPATfa_Non40gH-wLW3Cg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBkQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

Bottom of page 15 in his first novel written without a professional co-author (his novels are first-person with himself as the protagonist, so I think it fair to consider what he says about his character's philosophy to mirror his own - certainly I saw no change from the autobiography, except for for an increase in the scale of vulgarity after ditching the co-author).

[thaiboxerken]

Btw, Who created OBL?

The Republicans.

[Normal Dude]

His parents.

Got anymore of those?

Why is the sky blue?

..

;)

[JJM 777]

WTC wreckage was "vague" ?
The wreckage would have been evidence to document the actual mechanism of the collapse in detail, but what happened to this evidence is "vague", it was thrown away undocumented, and the actual mechanism of collapse was explained years later, with neither the physical evidence nor much documentation thereof at hand. So the evidence is vague, and the given explanation forever remains as a theory only, not a proven fact.

That's not skepticism, it's denialism.
Pointing out the fact that evidence is insufficient is skepticism.

But wouldn't they also be able to falsify any other potential evidence they might show? (...)
Is there any evidence the government could produce that would convince you that the recent story of Bin Laden's death is true?
Everyone must believe in some source for telling the truth. I would trust a randomly picked group of scientists. Something of international interest happens (it could be anything, for example a closed court case to give death penalty to someone). Send one UN monitor there, hand-picked by a western government: I won´t necessarily trust that his report is the unbiased and honest truth. Make a pool of thousands of scientists from all countries, and randomly pick 10 of them to each independently study the case and report their findings, then I would choose to believe in factual correctness of their findings.

In this case, if these random 10 scientists had done the DNA test, I would choose to believe their report about the identity of the corpse that was thrown to sea. One unnamed person reportedly "making the test and getting such-and-such results" is equal to anecdotal evidence. What is the statistical probability of a US army officer telling what he is told to tell the media, rather than telling the full truth about a combat mission? Quite high.

[lionking]

I would trust a randomly picked group of scientists.

And yet you don't trust the thousands of scientists who support the official story of 9/11.

[Verde]

I'm just glad they all made it back. OBL was not worth one more drop of American blood.

I agree. There was so much that could have gone wrong, {or did, eg. one failed chopper} that for these guys to go in and get the job done with no losses was a great achievement. No matter how much training went on beforehand, I doubt anyone really knew what they would face.

The term 'hero' is bandied about so much nowadays that it seems to have lost it's meaning. This team is certainly worthy of that designation. I think it is a pity that we will likely never know who they are.

V.

[Verde]

Destructive entities can get such fate. Nuclear preferances, more damaging arms & tools, intiating & manipulating fights for vesting interests, egoistic superiority complexes, creating destructive tools, creating disharmony & imbalances(nature imbalance etc.)or otherse odd, can also be considered as destructing entities & tools, unless "nature balances itself" is on way due to previous excesses/odds.

English to Hindi translation, for clarity:

विनाशकारी संस्थाओं जैसे भाग्य मिल सकती है. परमाणु preferances, और अधिक हानिकारक हथियार और उपकरण, intiating और हितों, घमंडी श्रेष्ठता परिसरों निहित, विनाशकारी उपकरण बनाने, असाम्यता और असंतुलन बनाने के लिए संघर्ष करता है जोड़ तोड़ (प्रकृति असंतुलन आदि) या विषम otherse भी destructing संस्थाओं एवं उपकरण के रूप में माना जा सकता, जब तक "प्रकृति ही शेष 'के कारण पिछले ज्यादतियों / बाधाओं के लिए अपने रास्ते पर है.

Just in case anyone was wondering what his post was alluding to.

Hope that helps.

V.

[Kumar]

English to Hindi translation, for clarity:

विनाशकारी संस्थाओं जैसे भाग्य मिल सकती है. परमाणु preferances, और अधिक हानिकारक हथियार और उपकरण, intiating और हितों, घमंडी श्रेष्ठता परिसरों निहित, विनाशकारी उपकरण बनाने, असाम्यता और असंतुलन बनाने के लिए संघर्ष करता है जोड़ तोड़ (प्रकृति असंतुलन आदि) या विषम otherse भी destructing संस्थाओं एवं उपकरण के रूप में माना जा सकता, जब तक "प्रकृति ही शेष 'के कारण पिछले ज्यादतियों / बाधाओं के लिए अपने रास्ते पर है.

Just in case anyone was wondering what his post was alluding to.

Hope that helps.

V.

It is not correct.

[zooterkin]

I saw in the comments section of a conservative blog.

Then why not quote it and give a link rather than apparently posting it as your own comment?

[gumboot]

Given who he was, I personally wouldn't be surprised if the other people there threw themselves in front of him to protect him. If someone tried to assassinate Obama, but took out a USSS agent instead, would that mean Obama was using human shields?

[Susheel]

Sorry Kumar. But that is the closest that one can get to what you are trying to say. You translated from Hindi to English for your post and a re-translation of that is bound to be a little bit "off" from the original that you intended.
Anyhoo, we have a rough idea of what you are trying to say, now tell us how this is related to the death of Osama. You are touting the back to nature ideal that the elite in India love and strangely enough is fuelled by new age followers in the west. Technology like everything else can be used for good and bad, commercial enterprises too have both sides. The thing is we have a choice.
Now, how is this related to the topic at hand?

[Zep]

I have never believed in this Human Shield propaganda that is constantly use against Arabs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acaU4D6dUqUThen why do you think trotting out contentious Youtubes claiming the Israeli army did this should be any more believable?

[Pardalis]

Now, how is this related to the topic at hand?

I guess it's his way of saying OBL got what was coming to him. :con2:

[Undesired Walrus]

Did they catch him in the act with the misses? No wonder he refused to give himself up.

[JJM 777]

And yet you don't trust the thousands of scientists who support the official story of 9/11.
Would you trust a thousand American scientists telling what my shoe size probably is, who have not actually seen and measured my shoes?

If evidence does not exist, then scientific truths don´t exist either, just a neutral list of possibilities and probabilities. The problem is that some refuse to acknowledge this, and insist that the truth is known, and some of the possible alternatives are certainly true and some of the possible alternatives are certainly not true, even in the absence of evidence that would prove these assertions. That is not a skeptical standpoint.

[OnlyTellsTruths]

Would you trust a thousand American scientists telling what my shoe size probably is, who have not actually seen and measured my shoes?

If evidence does not exist, then scientific truths don´t exist either, just a neutral list of possibilities and probabilities. The problem is that some refuse to acknowledge this, and insist that the truth is known, and some of the possible alternatives are certainly true and some of the possible alternatives are certainly not true, even in the absence of evidence that would prove these assertions. That is not a skeptical standpoint.

Bolding mine.

Even if there is zero scientific evidence, that does not mean that all possibilities are neutral; if by neutral you mean the same, or average.

For instance, I know your shoe size could be around 10 or so, but it could not be around 100.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Would you trust a thousand American scientists telling what my shoe size probably is, who have not actually seen and measured my shoes?

*ahem*

Tower Wreckage Reveals Clues (http://www.wired.com/politics/law/news/2001/10/47357)


JERSEY CITY, New Jersey -- In a scrap yard across the Hudson River from the fallen twin towers, engineering professor Abolhassan Astaneh-Asl pores over the 1,500 tons of twisted, charred steel arriving here each day from the remains of the World Trade Center like an archaeologist, like a coroner.

The University of California at Berkeley professor unveiled new details about the skyscrapers' cause of death Friday, displaying for the first time beams hit by one of the jets that ultimately brought down the towers, as well as scraps from the plane itself.

Astaneh-Asl -- who has had access to 40,000 tons of scrap -- said his findings confirm the widely held theory about the buildings' demise: that the impact of the planes did relatively little damage to the Towers. Rather, it was 1,000-plus-degree heat from the burning jet fuel that caused key outer beams to buckle, and floor after floor to fall.

If structural engineering professor opened your closet, found 40,000 tons of shoes and told us you're a size five and a half, yes we would believe him. But to claim or imply that the WTC wreckage was not examined is simply not true.

There's a whole forum full of information on 9/11 here. If you have questions, there's nothing stopping you from asking.

[Kumar]

His parents.

Got anymore of those?

thaiboxerken

The Republicans.

I don't know for sure but following quote tell otherwise:-

After leaving college in 1979, bin Laden arrived to Pakistan and joined Abdullah Azzam to take part in the Soviet war in Afghanistan.[60][61] From 1979 through 1989 under U.S. Presidents Carter and Reagan, the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) provided financial aid and weapons to Osama's Islamic Jihad Mujahideen through Operation Cyclone[62] and the Reagan Doctrine. Bin Laden met and built relations with Hamid Gul, who was a three star general in the Pakistani army and head of its Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) agency. Although the United States provided the money and weapons, the training of militant groups was entirely done by the Pakistani Armed Forces and the ISI.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osama_bin_Laden

[Kumar]

Sorry Kumar. But that is the closest that one can get to what you are trying to say. You translated from Hindi to English for your post and a re-translation of that is bound to be a little bit "off" from the original that you intended.
Anyhoo, we have a rough idea of what you are trying to say, now tell us how this is related to the death of Osama. You are touting the back to nature ideal that the elite in India love and strangely enough is fuelled by new age followers in the west. Technology like everything else can be used for good and bad, commercial enterprises too have both sides. The thing is we have a choice.
Now, how is this related to the topic at hand?

It can be better to be bit unclear & indirect enabling people to use more brain & remember.

I was just trying to understand, on first hand:-

Why crimanals, terrorists, devils etc. take birth & exist? Is it manmade or natural?

[JihadJane]

I'm not aware NASA has been exposed lying to the American public. They may have been ordered to stop talking about global warming and the Big Bang, but they never resorted to lying when that happened.

You really need to find a palate with narrower brushes. If our government were that cohesive we be in big trouble.

What's NASA got to do with killing bin Laden?

Are you even familiar with the discussion you're commenting on? Nobody is denying that some of the details surrounding the event are probably not 100% accurate, and I'm sure most would agree that there are many more details to come. But there's a world of difference between inaccuracies in the details, and the entirety of the story being a hoax.

You appear to be engaging in the false dichotomy very common among conspiracy theorists: You either believe that it's all a cover-up, a hoax, false flag, etc., or you believe everything the government tells you.


Where did I say the story was a hoax?

Check your facts before blindly sucking on the “conspiracy theorist” soother.

What false claims, the part where they admitted some early accounts were wrong?

HOW DARE THEY ADMIT THE TRUTH!

Oh and you left out some good parts. Well I think they are good. It's not them admitting they made a mistake and correcting it but it's significant.



So they admitted they released incorrect info, then cleared it up. Regretible but not really unusual. Even Liberals get things wrong and then issue corrections.

You mention the fact that OBL was uinarmed when shot, why not also mention that they safely secured and protected non combatants during the raid. Something that would be extremely dangerous to the operators in the middle of a firefight.

You are assuming the latest, corrected narrative is true. Why?

In propaganda craft, the first narrative is the one that sticks in the public mind, regardless of later "corrections". Remember what happened to Jessica Lynch (another "heroic" propaganda operation in which Seal Team six were also involved)?

Is Al Queda part of the hoax? Did they issue proclamations of revenge to just go with it? How about the entire armed forces squadron that had to be part of the conspiracy? Do you think a conspiracy this big could be hoaxed? That is about as absurd as saying the moon landing was faked.

Where did I say anythig about a hoax? All I did was suggest that a default position of believing a governing structure that has repeatedly lied is irrational.

Thus people unquestionably and enthusiastically reguritated the reassuring Hollywood-style fantasy of an armed bin Laden using his wife as a human shield.

Babbling about the Moon Landing is as relevant to the topic under discussion as Elvis Presley.


Current news brief: Woman killed in crossfire, not as a shield. Second woman shot in leg, not killed, had "rushed" the Seals and was in the same room as Bin Laden. Sounds like they could have taken Bin Laden alive and either didn't intend to or were acting too quickly and assumed Bin Laden was going for, or had a weapon. I think the latter is a reasonable scenario.

Just like your average, grubby, homeland police execution, then.



'Judge Napolitano Asks 'Who Will Obama Illegally Kill Next?'':

yBXHY5jHK-I

[Sword_Of_Truth]

'Judge Napolitano Asks 'Who Will Obama Illegally Kill Next?'':

yBXHY5jHK-I

Removed personal remarks

BTW, the killng of Bin Laden was legal, look up Operation Vengeance.

[Belz...]

I saw in the comments section of a conservative blog.

Excuse me, are you trolling ? If so, don't you have anything better to do than waste our time, here ?

[Belz...]

So this thread is your evidence?

No, it's the basis of my understanding of this trivial fact the truth value of which is irrelevant to my life. Did you even read the post you were replying to ? Do you ever ?

[Belz...]

Destructive entities can get such fate. Nuclear preferances, more damaging arms & tools, intiating & manipulating fights for vesting interests, egoistic superiority complexes, creating destructive tools, creating disharmony & imbalances(nature imbalance etc.)or otherse odd, can also be considered as destructing entities & tools, unless "nature balances itself" is on way due to previous excesses/odds.

"Hey, here's a thread about something. I'll just post random words !!"

[Belz...]

The wreckage would have been evidence to document the actual mechanism of the collapse in detail, but what happened to this evidence is "vague", it was thrown away undocumented, and the actual mechanism of collapse was explained years later, with neither the physical evidence nor much documentation thereof at hand. So the evidence is vague, and the given explanation forever remains as a theory only, not a proven fact.

Those are all lies. The mechanism of the collapse was well understood from the get-go, and only truthers have no clue how to interpret this event. You could at least check your story before making yourself look like a fool on a public forum.

[jhunter1163]

Folks, the topic is Osama bin Laden, not the WTC collapses. Thanks.

[JJM 777]

Back on the Osama topic:

No evidence that it was Osama whom they killed. It is possible but not proven.

No corpse left to test its DNA, if anyone has a tissue sample of him to compare it with anyway.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Folks, the topic is Osama bin Laden, not the WTC collapses. Thanks.

Indeed. Hence why I recommended and invited the forum member to the section devoted to that topic.

[dtugg]

Back on the Osama topic:

No evidence that it was Osama whom they killed. It is possible but not proven.

No corpse left to test its DNA, if anyone has a tissue sample of him to compare it with anyway.

How do you know Hitler died in 1945?

[lionking]

No corpse left to test its DNA, if anyone has a tissue sample of him to compare it with anyway.

Firstly, you don't think samples were taken before Osama was thrown overboard?

Secondly, what to you think happens when a DNA test is done to determine paternity?

Hint, the DNA of one person isn't tested against the tissue of the same person.

[zooterkin]

Back on the Osama topic:

No evidence that it was Osama whom they killed. It is possible but not proven.

No corpse left to test its DNA, if anyone has a tissue sample of him to compare it with anyway.

If he's not dead, it would be trivially easy for him to prove it. What better way to make fools of the Americans?

[Quad4_72]

Back on the Osama topic:

No evidence that it was Osama whom they killed. It is possible but not proven.

No corpse left to test its DNA, if anyone has a tissue sample of him to compare it with anyway.

Umm the DNA was already tested. Did you miss that part? What evidence exactly are you looking for?

[Checkmite]

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c159/jk_mellifera/OsamaFacebook.jpg

[Belz...]

Back on the Osama topic:

No evidence that it was Osama whom they killed. It is possible but not proven.

No corpse left to test its DNA, if anyone has a tissue sample of him to compare it with anyway.

I'll echo Tugg's question: how do you know anything ? At some point you'll have to put your trust in one source or another.

[BeAChooser]

At some point you'll have to put your trust in one source or another.

But as http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=207034 demonstrates, can you trust anyone? :p

[Marduk]

at least now the innocents can get on with their lives, all those poor out of work Osama Bin Laden lookalikes can now walk the streets and make balloon animals at childrens parties without fear of reprisal.
:D

[I Ratant]

There was a LHO lookalike here.. I -almost- got up the nerve to ask him to recreate the backyard photo poses...
And there's a couple spittin' images of Saddam here.

[BenBurch]

Back on the Osama topic:

No evidence that it was Osama whom they killed. It is possible but not proven.

No corpse left to test its DNA, if anyone has a tissue sample of him to compare it with anyway.

As has already been established, they took a tissue sample. As has already been established they had his late sister's DNA. M-DNA match would be 100% in that case, and haploid DNA approximately a 50% match.

But if you want more, I think we could let you inspect his burial site first hand.

[AdMan]

If he's not dead, it would be trivially easy for him to prove it. What better way to make fools of the Americans?

^^
This.


On a related note, OBL apparently had 500 euros sewn into his clothes when he was killed, "sure signs that he was prepared to flee his compound at a moment’s notice."

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0511/54258.html

Doesn't seem like a whole lot of money, but maybe he was expecting to get access to more soon after fleeing.

[BenBurch]

How do you know Hitler died in 1945?

I think the whole thing with Caesar was a put up job. I mean, stabbed to death on the floor of the Senate; Come On. Nobody would do it that way. I think he simply wanted to cover his disappearance and he is still living in Berlin under the name of "Smith."

[I Ratant]

It can be better to be bit unclear & indirect enabling people to use more brain & remember.

I was just trying to understand, on first hand:-

Why crimanals, terrorists, devils etc. take birth & exist? Is it manmade or natural?
.
There are no "devils", as in supernatural agents beyond humanity.
The others, are natural, and man made, if not by problems with recessive genes inhibiting normal human responses, then usually a learned behavior.
Some of my friends are repeat criminals.. they can't learn from the previous bad experiences and continue to repeat them.
Personality defects.
Humanity needs no external assistance to be totally evil. Or exceptionally good.

[I Ratant]

At the JFK Wing at Parkland General Hospital, with Elvis, Judge Crater and the crew from the Marie Celeste... and the fliers from Flight 19.

[Kumar]

Back on the Osama topic:

No evidence that it was Osama whom they killed. It is possible but not proven.

No corpse left to test its DNA, if anyone has a tissue sample of him to compare it with anyway.

Btw if you think otherwise, what can be the purpose of US for declaring him dead?

[Skeptic Ginger]

From your own link, Marcinko hand-picked the original members of SEAL Team 6 and named it as well. I never claimed that his statement indicated a kill directive, even if that's what you're reading into it. I do think that it's not unlikely that the founder's personal philosophy would be imprinted upon that organization - knowing a few SEALs myself, admittedly this is anecdotal, Marcinko holds a legendary status.

Oh, and here's the quote (language NSFW):

http://books.google.com/books?id=TYkUYLy61GYC&pg=PA15&lpg=PA15&dq=richard+marcinko+bring+terrorists+back+alive&source=bl&ots=_SJd9jArYB&sig=c06tV-zZUaPT72C1xyb7xDFvFNQ&hl=en&ei=iNPATfa_Non40gH-wLW3Cg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBkQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

Bottom of page 15 in his first novel written without a professional co-author (his novels are first-person with himself as the protagonist, so I think it fair to consider what he says about his character's philosophy to mirror his own - certainly I saw no change from the autobiography, except for for an increase in the scale of vulgarity after ditching the co-author).
You "never claimed that his statement indicated a kill directive," you just decided to post it coincidentally during a debate about whether there was 'evidence' of a directive not to take Bin Laden alive. I see.

As for the quote, I never doubted the guy said it. He was selling a book and a radio persona.

[Skeptic Ginger]

And yet you don't trust the thousands of scientists who support the official story of 9/11.

Touche'.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Would you trust a thousand American scientists telling what my shoe size probably is, who have not actually seen and measured my shoes?

If evidence does not exist, then scientific truths don´t exist either, just a neutral list of possibilities and probabilities. The problem is that some refuse to acknowledge this, and insist that the truth is known, and some of the possible alternatives are certainly true and some of the possible alternatives are certainly not true, even in the absence of evidence that would prove these assertions. That is not a skeptical standpoint.This is a common rationalization used to discount valid scientific evidence and opinion. Somehow the vast majority of experts have been duped and only one or two can see the 'truth'. The underlying premise that everyone but the truthers have been duped is unsupportable.

The vast majority of the scientific and engineering community that has looked at ALL the evidence, including all the truther claims, images, etc, failed to find the truther conclusions have any merit. One or two engineers out of thousands have lent their credentials to the truther conclusion.

You are experiencing an extreme form of confirmation bias to rely on the conclusions of a couple nut jobs over thousands of experts.


Edited to add, I see the mod comments after posting this. My intent was to comment on confirmation bias, not the WTC directly. If any mods prefer to delete the post, feel free.

[Quad4_72]

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c159/jk_mellifera/OsamaFacebook.jpg

That is sooo fake someone totally photoshopped that. I am the best skeptic I know.

[Skeptic Ginger]

What's NASA got to do with killing bin Laden?....How quickly people lose track of the conversation.

By his logic, the moon landing was a hoax as well.
Is there a reason why you choose the default position of believing a governing structure that has repeatedly lied to you?
I'm not aware NASA has been exposed lying to the American public. They may have been ordered to stop talking about global warming and the Big Bang, but they never resorted to lying when that happened.

You really need to find a palate with narrower brushes. If our government were that cohesive we be in big trouble.
What's NASA got to do with killing bin Laden?....


Hope that clears it up for you, but if not, I'll try again.

[Skeptic Ginger]

No, it's the basis of my understanding of this trivial fact the truth value of which is irrelevant to my life. Did you even read the post you were replying to ? Do you ever ?Did you? Do you ever? :rolleyes:


Skeptic Ginger: Sounds like they could have taken Bin Laden alive and either didn't intend to or were acting too quickly and assumed Bin Laden was going for, or had a weapon. I think the latter is a reasonable scenario.

Pardalis: I think the intent was to go in and kill him. At least that's what I heard. I don't think they had any intention of taking him alive.

Belz: That's how I understand it as well. I don't think they wanted him alive.

SG to Pardalis: That's what you heard from whom? Surely no one in a position to know has said anything of the kind.

SG to Belz: It's reasonable to speculate, but it is odd that people are claiming they have "heard" or they "understand" as if the fact is out there.

Belz: That's how I understand it FROM THIS THREAD, Ginger.
Glad to see you're in your usual intolerable mood.

SG to Belz: So this thread is your evidence?
I don't tolerate unsubstantiated claims of fact. The first supposed actual evidence it was a kill mission not a capture or kill was the rumor in Ausmerican's Politico link, "an official recalled". It was posted after your statement of 'understanding'.

Belz: No, it's the basis of my understanding of this trivial fact the truth value of which is irrelevant to my life. Did you even read the post you were replying to ? Do you ever ?

I've said no more than to challenge people asserting knowledge or evidence it was a kill mission when no such evidence has been presented. I pointed out that speculation is being repeated as if there was some actual evidence of the fact rather than just speculation.

Your personal pettiness was uncalled for, as usual.

[Marduk]

I think the whole thing with Caesar was a put up job. I think he simply wanted to cover his disappearance and he is still living in Berlin under the name of "Smith."

No, you're confusing him with Hannibal, who was sent to prison by a military court for a crime he didn't commit. He promptly escaped from a maximum security stockade to the Los Angeles underground. Today, still wanted by the government, he survives as a soldier of fortune..... etc
:D

[JihadJane]

America killed way more innocent iraqis than al Queda killed innocent Americans.

Doubtful.

Do you know how many innocents the the US government has killed in Pakistan alone, Puppycow?




Removed previously moderated material and response to same

Do you know what Operation Vengeance was, JihadJane?

Yes.


If he's not dead, it would be trivially easy for him to prove it. What better way to make fools of the Americans?

Wrong end.

Bin Laden has already been reported to have died at least a dozen times in the past so it's quite likely that he's dead.

How quickly people lose track of the conversation.

...


Hope that clears it up for you, but if not, I'll try again.



No, it doesn’t.

I have kept track of the conversation perfectly well. :) Please try again.

The comment of mine that you quote has nothing to do with to Moon Landings/NASA (thaiboxerken's lazy, red herring).

[Morrigan]

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lkmkyrbYAe1qznbnjo1_500.png

[I Am The Scum]

The comment of mine that you quote has nothing to do with to Moon Landings/NASA (thaiboxerken's lazy, red herring).

But Ginger just posted your text from post #797. That post contains nothing but Ken's comment about the moon, and your response to it. There's nothing else there. Why would you quote that if your response has nothing to do with the quoted section?

I don't have a problem with you or anyone else involving themselves in a conversation. However, you appear to be jumping in, changing the subject in an extremely subtle manner, and then acting surprised when people fail to understand your point. You're responding to X, but your comment has nothing to do with X. I'm confused.

[I Ratant]

Do you know how many innocents the the US government has killed in Pakistan alone, Puppycow?
...
.
Do you know how many innocents have been killed by Al Quaeda around the world?
And by Taliban, in Paki and Afghani...?

[Pardalis]

It can be better to be bit unclear & indirect enabling people to use more brain & remember.

I was just trying to understand, on first hand:-

Why crimanals, terrorists, devils etc. take birth & exist? Is it manmade or natural?

What are you babbling on about?

[Belz...]

I've said no more than to challenge people asserting knowledge or evidence it was a kill mission when no such evidence has been presented.

And AGAIN you post falsehoods about what I said. Why ? You posted the full conversation and still managed to get it wrong.

[PhreePhly]

From another poster in another forum:

In their ever growing effort to be "Not Obama" the Conservatives have started to become a bunch of dirty hippys.

On his Fox show Freedom Watch, Andrew Napolitano,

Quote:

This business of the president deciding to kill people is very dangerous and very unlawful. Put aside that governmental assassination is a violation of the Constitution. Put aside that this killing was not in self-defense and was without a declaration of war. Put aside the law that the president may never order the killing of civilians—period. And put aside that governmental killing violates at least four treaties and three federal statutes.

Heck, even the Dalai Lama is down with killing Bin Laden.


Quote:

As a human being, Bin Laden may have deserved compassion and even forgiveness, the Dalai Lama said in answer to a question about the assassination of the Al Qaeda leader. But, he said, "Forgiveness doesn't mean forget what happened. … If something is serious and it is necessary to take counter-measures, you have to take counter-measures."


Think about that. Fox News is now further to the felt than the Dalai Lama.

Thanks Starbuck79

[NotJesus]

Fox News: Fair and Balanced and Performing the Mental Gymnastics Needed to Keep Obama Wrong.

[Pardalis]

Bin Laden has already been reported to have died at least a dozen times in the past so it's quite likely that he's dead.

Reports with no evidence, and no body, and now that we have evidence and a body, you refuse to accept it.

Odd ain't it?

[Skeptic Ginger]

But Ginger just posted your [Jane's] text from post #797. That post contains nothing but Ken's comment about the moon, and your response to it. There's nothing else there. Why would you quote that if your response has nothing to do with the quoted section?

.... I'm confused.

This.

[Skeptic Ginger]

And AGAIN you post falsehoods about what I said. Why ? You posted the full conversation and still managed to get it wrong.:boggled:

Have you and Jane been hanging out?

[JihadJane]

But Ginger just posted your text from post #797. That post contains nothing but Ken's comment about the moon, and your response to it. There's nothing else there. Why would you quote that if your response has nothing to do with the quoted section?

I don't have a problem with you or anyone else involving themselves in a conversation. However, you appear to be jumping in, changing the subject in an extremely subtle manner, and then acting surprised when people fail to understand your point. You're responding to X, but your comment has nothing to do with X. I'm confused.

It is confusing because Skeptic Ginger cuts off the conversation arbitrarily, missing out JJM 77's source comment (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=7144938#post7144938), the premise of which thaiboxerken equates with theories that the moon landings were hoaxed.

Thaiboxerken's Moon Landing comment addresses JJM 777's comment, but JJM 777's comment is omitted from in Skeptic Ginger's summary of the conversation.

Skeptic Ginger appears to misinterpret my comment (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=7145053#post7145053) as referring to skepticism about the moon landing (a sub-topic and red herring introduced by thaiboxerken) bit it isn't. My comment refers to skepticism about the yarns that the US military spins about its operations, as expressed in JJM 777's comment, the one that thaiboxerken and I Am The Scum are ridiculing (in the accustomed manner :rolleyes:).



Thaiboxerken's moon landing comment (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=7144992#post7144992) was a response to I Am The Scum's comment:

If you're willing to believe that the government is willing and able to stage this raid all for the sake of faking a report on Bin Laden's death, then you're also willing to believe that they would fake any other evidence they might have offered. Photos? Photoshopped. DNA? Falsified report. Video? Staged. "Bin Laden's" body? Surgically altered burkah salesman.

which was a response to JJM 777's comment:

We have only anecdotal evidence that it was Osama Bin Laden who was killed and thrown to the sea quicker than the WTC crime scene evidence was recycled. There is not more _evidence_ that it was him than there is evidence of miraculous healings at a Benny Hinn service. Anecdotes are no evidence, everyone here should know that better than well.

JJM 777 comment is perfectly reasonable. We do only have anecdotal evidence that bin Laden was killed and thrown in to the sea. We are entirely dependent on the US military for this information. The US military has lied before about "heroic" operations (e.g. Jessica Lynch, Pat Tillman), for propaganda purposes.

Thaiboxerken's comment:

By his logic, the moon landing was a hoax as well.

pretends that reasonable distrust of the word of the US military can be equated with Moon Landing Hoax theories. Thaiboxerken comment is just a cheap rhetorical trick, one step up from accusing JJM 77 of wearing a tinfoil hat. I therefore ignore its content and address its attempt to paint JJM 777's comment as ridiculous.

My comment in response:

Is there a reason why you choose the default position of believing a governing structure that has repeatedly lied to you?

refers back to JJM 77 comment (the one that thaiboxerken is applying the Moon Landing Hoax smear to). It asks what is logical about believing, without any skepticism, anecdotal evidence about an operation with huge propaganda weight, provided by an organization that has lied, for propaganda purposes, in the past, about operations with major PR implications.

You'd have to be a bit credulous not to experience some skepticsm in this situation, in my opinion.

[JihadJane]

:boggled:

Have you and Jane been hanging out?

No!!!


:)

[Polaris]

You "never claimed that his statement indicated a kill directive," you just decided to post it coincidentally during a debate about whether there was 'evidence' of a directive not to take Bin Laden alive. I see.

As for the quote, I never doubted the guy said it. He was selling a book and a radio persona.

I posted it when I read the post I responded to.

But please, allow me a moment to deeply ponder how little I care whether you believe me or not.

[JihadJane]

Do you know how many innocents the the US government has killed in Pakistan alone, Puppycow?

..
Do you know how many innocents have been killed by Al Qaeda around the world?
And by Taliban, in Paki and Afghani...?

Between five and ten thousand? Probably nearer five.

http://crowdleaks.org/the-logic-of-power-al-qaeda-versus-wikileaks/

I don't think anyone's argued that Al Qaeda hasn't killed a lot of civilians so I'm not sure why you're asking.

And by Taliban, in Paki and Afghani...?

Attempting to bump up the figures by throwing in the Taliban would be somewhat dishonest. ;)

Do you know how many innocents the the US government has killed in Pakistan alone

[Skeptic Ginger]

It is confusing because Skeptic Ginger cuts off the conversation arbitrarily, missing out JJM 77's source comment (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=7144938#post7144938), the premise of which thaiboxerken equates with theories that the moon landings were hoaxed.

Thaiboxerken's Moon Landing comment addresses JJM 777's comment, but JJM 777's comment is omitted from in Skeptic Ginger's summary of the conversation.

Skeptic Ginger appears to misinterpret my comment (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=7145053#post7145053) as referring to skepticism about the moon landing (a sub-topic and red herring introduced by thaiboxerken) bit it isn't. My comment refers to skepticism about the yarns that the US military spins about its operations, as expressed in JJM 777's comment, the one that thaiboxerken and I Am The Scum are ridiculing (in the accustomed manner :rolleyes:).It would help if you put the exchange in order.

JJM: We have only anecdotal evidence that it was Osama Bin Laden who was killed and thrown to the sea quicker than the WTC crime scene evidence was recycled. There is not more _evidence_ that it was him than there is evidence of miraculous healings at a Benny Hinn service. Anecdotes are no evidence, everyone here should know that better than well.

Thai: Right....the only evidence that counts is evidence you've personally observed.

IATS: If you're willing to believe that the government is willing and able to stage this raid all for the sake of faking a report on Bin Laden's death, then you're also willing to believe that they would fake any other evidence they might have offered. Photos? Photoshopped. DNA? Falsified report. Video? Staged. "Bin Laden's" body? Surgically altered burkah salesman.

Thai: By his logic, the moon landing was a hoax as well.

Jane: Is there a reason why you choose the default position of believing a governing structure that has repeatedly lied to you?

SG: I'm not aware NASA has been exposed lying to the American public. They may have been ordered to stop talking about global warming and the Big Bang, but they never resorted to lying when that happened.
You really need to find a palate with narrower brushes. If our government were that cohesive we be in big trouble.

Jane: What's NASA got to do with killing bin Laden?....

Regardless of how far back you want to take the exchange, you knew full well (or you should have) why I replied about NASA not having a record of lying to the public. You knew what Thai had posted.

But, now that you've pointed the essence of your complaint is, Thaiboxerken's comment ... pretends that reasonable distrust of the word of the US military can be equated with Moon Landing Hoax theories.But your comment I replied to saidIs there a reason why you choose the default position of believing a governing structure that has repeatedly lied to you?"A governing structure" whether you meant only, the US military, appears for all intents and purposes there to be a broader brush covering the US government.

You could have saved yourself this tedious discussion if you had just said you were only referring to the military's history of deceit in this case.

I am guessing your annoyance at other people in the discussion is affecting you more than necessary.

[portlandatheist]

deanialism: no proof OBL is dead
tu quoque: American's kill innocents too
Blame the victim: The republican's created OBL

It must really suck to be a terrorist apologist

[Skeptic Ginger]

I posted it when I read the post I responded to.

But please, allow me a moment to deeply ponder how little I care whether you believe me or not.No need to bother pondering. I believed you the first time you clarified yourself. I was merely pointing out your post was inadvertently misleading.

[EventHorizon]

Pointing out the fact that evidence is insufficient is skepticism.


Trying to pass off an opinion as a fact is not skepticism.

[Polaris]

No need to bother pondering. I believed you the first time you clarified yourself. I was merely pointing out your post was inadvertently misleading.

In that case, I apologize for being a prick just now.

[BenBurch]

deanialism: no proof OBL is dead
tu quoque: American's kill innocents too
Blame the victim: The republican's created OBL

It must really suck to be a terrorist apologist

Republicans MAY have made him, but it was not a foreseeable consequence of funding him against the Soviets.

[JihadJane]

Bin Laden’s Daughter Confirms
Father Captured Alive Then Killed By US Special Forces

EXTRACT:

The official said a 12-year-old daughter of bin Laden was among the six children rescued from the three-storey compound.

The daughter has reportedly told her Pakistani investigators that the US forces captured her father alive but shot him dead in front of family members.

According to sources, Bin Laden was staying on the ground floor of the house and was dragged on the floor to the helicopter after being shot dead by US commandos.

There were conflicting reports about the second person the US forces took along with them. Some Pakistani officials say it was one of Bin Laden’s sons injured by the US commandos and thrown onto a separate military chopper; others say he was killed in the operation and it was only his dead body that they took along.

The officials say not all children rescued from the house belonged to the al-Qaeda leader. All were being kept at a safe place. The US has not been given access to the detained women and children, the officials claimed. About the second woman, many officials feel she could be a close relative of Osama or his servant.

Similarly, according to information Pakistani officials collected from detained persons, Osama was neither armed nor did inmates at the compound fire at the US choppers or commandos.

“Not a single bullet was fired from the compound at the US forces and their choppers. Their chopper developed some technical fault and crashed and the wreckage was left on the spot,” a well-informed official explained.


/EXTRACT.

http://english.alarabiya.net/articles/2011/05/04/147782.html

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Pakistani intelligence never lies, do they? :rolleyes:

[Resume]

Bin Laden’s Daughter Confirms
Father Captured Alive Then Killed By US Special Forces

EXTRACT:

The official said a 12-year-old daughter of bin Laden was among the six children rescued from the three-storey compound.

The daughter has reportedly told her Pakistani investigators that the US forces captured her father alive but shot him dead in front of family members.

According to sources, Bin Laden was staying on the ground floor of the house and was dragged on the floor to the helicopter after being shot dead by US commandos.

There were conflicting reports about the second person the US forces took along with them. Some Pakistani officials say it was one of Bin Laden’s sons injured by the US commandos and thrown onto a separate military chopper; others say he was killed in the operation and it was only his dead body that they took along.

The officials say not all children rescued from the house belonged to the al-Qaeda leader. All were being kept at a safe place. The US has not been given access to the detained women and children, the officials claimed. About the second woman, many officials feel she could be a close relative of Osama or his servant.

Similarly, according to information Pakistani officials collected from detained persons, Osama was neither armed nor did inmates at the compound fire at the US choppers or commandos.

“Not a single bullet was fired from the compound at the US forces and their choppers. Their chopper developed some technical fault and crashed and the wreckage was left on the spot,” a well-informed official explained.


/EXTRACT.

http://english.alarabiya.net/articles/2011/05/04/147782.html

Do you believe the highlighted?

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Do you know what Operation Vengeance was, JihadJane?

Yes.

So you know then that the killing of Bin Laden is legal and supported by historic precedent.

Why are you complaining then?

[Gawdzilla]

Follow up to Checkmite:

[Tricky]

Reports with no evidence, and no body, and now that we have evidence and a body, you refuse to accept it.

Odd ain't it?
Sylvia Browne said he was dead years ago. What more proof do you need?

[JihadJane]

It would help if you put the exchange in order.

I agree.

Unfortunately I'm going to be very busy for the next few days and must stop posting now. I need an early night. I've got a lot to do. Perhaps you could do it for me. It would make everything much clearer!


Regardless of how far back you want to take the exchange, you knew full well (or you should have) why I replied about NASA not having a record of lying to the public. You knew what Thai had posted.


One only needs to go back as far as JJM 777's comment to understand the context of my rebuttal of taiboxerken's assertion.

My question to you was rhetorical.

I was somewhat surprised that you'd assume I'd think the moon landings were hoaxed or that I could be so easily distracted into discussing the Moon on a bin Laden thread.


But, now that you've pointed the essence of your complaint is, But your comment I replied to said"A governing structure" whether you meant only, the US military, appears for all intents and purposes there to be a broader brush covering the US government.

I know it's ridiculous, but it was thaiboxerken who equated the US government landing on the moon with a US government military assassination operation in Pakistan, not me.

Thaiboxerken comment was using the Moon Landing "example" to to talk about JJM 777's comment. My comment was also talking about JJM 777's comment. JJM 777's comment was about the Assassinate bin Laden and Throw him in the Sea operation.

That was the conversation.

You could have saved yourself this tedious discussion if you had just said you were only referring to the military's history of deceit in this case.

JJM 777's comment was about the possibility of military deceit.

The context of the discussion was very clearly about the Let's-Kill-Bin-Laden operation

I'm sorry you find the discussion tedious. I don't find it tedious at all. It gives me pleasure. I write because I enjoy it. :)

I am guessing your annoyance at other people in the discussion is affecting you more than necessary.

What did I write to make you guess that?

[Virus]

Bin Laden’s Daughter Confirms
Father Captured Alive Then Killed By US Special Forces
http://english.alarabiya.net/articles/2011/05/04/147782.html

While Al-Arabiya is a bit better than most Arab press, it's still the Arab press.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

The daughter has reportedly told her Pakistani investigators that the US forces captured her father alive but shot him dead in front of family members.

If this is true (again, consider the source), how is this an issue? If you're OBLs family and you live in the same house with him and the navy SEALS come to kill him, where else are they going to do it?

We have a couple dozen SEALS on the ground deep behind enemy lines. The team commander has to worry about a uncooperative terrorist, his unfriendly family and possible imminent counter-attack by Al-Qeada and/or pakistani military under the control of AQ sympathizers.

If the team commander doesn't feel he has enough resources to manage the situation, the he has no choice but to pop daddy Bin Laden right there and bug out.

[Darth Rotor]

Jane, you little silly, the orders (as I understand it) were "kill or capture."

That leaves a choice for either. Kill was a good choice. The order wasn't "capture, but if he won't come quietly, kill."

I got to work for a while on a whole bunch of missions where orders were, very explicitly, kill or capture. I was on the "kill" side as we were mostly providing ordnance carrying aircraft. The guys on the ground had to deal in the capture bit, if it arose as an option. It did sometimes, other times it was "kill" as the option available.

Kill frequently worked out very nicely, thanks all the same. Whole lotta virgins got a whole lotta company, so I guess it was a win win situation all around, as they stopped shooting at our soldiers, allies, and any of the local civilian population.

You really don't get it, I think.

Really
Don't
Get
It