Osama bin Laden dead,

[John Jones]

[mercy SNIP!]

If you have a point, I would be happy to read it.

[John Jones]

Bin Laden’s Daughter Confirms
Father Captured Alive Then Killed By US Special Forces

EXTRACT:

The official said a 12-year-old daughter of bin Laden was among the six children rescued from the three-storey compound.

The daughter has reportedly told her Pakistani investigators that the US forces captured her father alive but shot him dead in front of family members.

According to sources, Bin Laden was staying on the ground floor of the house and was dragged on the floor to the helicopter after being shot dead by US commandos.

There were conflicting reports about the second person the US forces took along with them. Some Pakistani officials say it was one of Bin Laden’s sons injured by the US commandos and thrown onto a separate military chopper; others say he was killed in the operation and it was only his dead body that they took along.

The officials say not all children rescued from the house belonged to the al-Qaeda leader. All were being kept at a safe place. The US has not been given access to the detained women and children, the officials claimed. About the second woman, many officials feel she could be a close relative of Osama or his servant.

Similarly, according to information Pakistani officials collected from detained persons, Osama was neither armed nor did inmates at the compound fire at the US choppers or commandos.

“Not a single bullet was fired from the compound at the US forces and their choppers. Their chopper developed some technical fault and crashed and the wreckage was left on the spot,” a well-informed official explained.


/EXTRACT.

http://english.alarabiya.net/articles/2011/05/04/147782.html

Do you have a point?

[ANTPogo]

http://english.alarabiya.net/articles/2011/05/04/147782.html

After all, if there's anything the momentous events of this weekend have taught us, it's just how reliable and trustworthy that officials of the Pakistani government, military, and intelligence agencies are when it comes to all matters Bin Laden.

[Kopji]

Geronimo!

...It was his name that the U.S. military chose as the code for the raid, and perhaps for Osama bin Laden himself, during the operation that killed the al-Qaida leader in Pakistan. That led to the iconic transmission from the raid: "Geronimo EKIA." Geronimo, Enemy Killed in Action.

In a triumphant moment for the United States, the moniker has left a sour taste among many Native Americans...

http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/news/articles/2011/05/04/20110504geronimo0504.html


I'm hoping that one good change that can come from this operation is firing the idiot who picks the operation names. Sheesh we've had some stupid ones. It can't be a random accident. Have'ta side with the Apaches on this one. Next bad guy operation gets to be Ronald Reagan...

[Pardalis]

Do you have a point?

I think this means that JJ now accepts OBL is really dead, and was killed sunday. Otherwise I'm not sure of the pertinence of posting that article.

[Skeptic Ginger]

In that case, I apologize for being a prick just now.Yay, a break in the run on negative posts. :D

No apology needed.

[Skeptic Ginger]

I agree.

Unfortunately I'm going to be very busy for the next few days and must stop posting now. I need an early night. I've got a lot to do. Perhaps you could do it for me. :boggled:

I did. In the post you are replying to.


[snipped the stuff that I'm done with whether you are or not.]

What did I write to make you guess that?Because instead of just discussing the issues you post snippy little insults that do nothing more than prolong the confusion people have expressed about what you''ve posted.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Bin Laden’s Daughter Confirms
Father Captured Alive Then Killed By US Special Forces

EXTRACT:

The official said a 12-year-old daughter of bin Laden was among the six children rescued from the three-storey compound.

The daughter has reportedly told her Pakistani investigators that the US forces captured her father alive but shot him dead in front of family members.

According to sources, Bin Laden was staying on the ground floor of the house and was dragged on the floor to the helicopter after being shot dead by US commandos.

There were conflicting reports about the second person the US forces took along with them. Some Pakistani officials say it was one of Bin Laden’s sons injured by the US commandos and thrown onto a separate military chopper; others say he was killed in the operation and it was only his dead body that they took along.

The officials say not all children rescued from the house belonged to the al-Qaeda leader. All were being kept at a safe place. The US has not been given access to the detained women and children, the officials claimed. About the second woman, many officials feel she could be a close relative of Osama or his servant.

Similarly, according to information Pakistani officials collected from detained persons, Osama was neither armed nor did inmates at the compound fire at the US choppers or commandos.

“Not a single bullet was fired from the compound at the US forces and their choppers. Their chopper developed some technical fault and crashed and the wreckage was left on the spot,” a well-informed official explained.


/EXTRACT.

http://english.alarabiya.net/articles/2011/05/04/147782.htmlThink about it. You capture Bin Laden. Then when you execute him you let the 12 yr old and other family members watch?

Not very likely. What would be the point? The most elite and well trained Seal Force couldn't control their emotions and had the family watch for kicks?

[Skeptic Ginger]

Some Repugs have seen the photos. If there were none or the evidence was shaky, the Repugs would be screaming up a campaign storm that the events were faked. The fact all the Repugs are doing is trying to take credit and excuse their immoral torturing IS PROOF BEYOND ALL DOUBT, BIN LADEN IS DEAD AND HE WAS KILLED SUNDAY.

[steve s]

Some Repugs have seen the photos. If there were none or the evidence was shaky, the Repugs would be screaming up a campaign storm that the events were faked.

Don'tchya know that they're in on the conspiracy too? Like how the McCain and Clinton campaigns all looked into the birth certificate issue and were satisfied it was real. I had someone tell me that Hillary, Palin, and McCain were all part of the conspiracy.

Steve S

[Pardalis]

Think about it.

JJ is not thinking, she's reacting.

Can't you see she's desperately trying to spin this story any way she can as long as it makes the US look bad?

First she wanted to imply OBL was already dead, giving credence to the early reports of his death, which would imply the Obama administration is lying about last sunday's operation.

Now she found another story that would make the US look bad, so she decided to go along with that one, even though it contradicts the first story she was trying to throw at us. Now she's implying OBL was really killed on sunday, but this time in front of his own daughter, which would make the operation look bad, how dare they kill a father in front of his children, right?

See? OBL either died sunday or he didn't, but JJ wants so bad the US to be the bad guy, that she's willing to give credence to the two propositions, even though they are in direct contradiction.

Spin spin spin, it's all JJ is good at doing. Thinking things through though is another story... She just reacts to whatever comes her way in her usual way, whatever new information surfaces, she spins it against the US. She doesn't search the news to find new information that will make her learn more about the world, she peruses the news in order to justify her beliefs and use it for her own agenda. That's what ideologues do. She conditioned herself on this mindset, now it has become a reflex.

[zooterkin]

We have a couple dozen SEALS on the ground deep behind enemy lines.

I thought they were in Pakistan?

[Sword_Of_Truth]

I thought they were in Pakistan?

Given what we now know about our Pakistani "allies", that's deep behind enemy lines.

One does not fly advanced stealth helicopters deep into a nations interior without allerting their government if they are our friends.

[Skeptic Ginger]

JJ is not thinking, she's reacting.....JJM is a she? :o

[zooterkin]

JJM is a she? :o

JJ != JJM 777.

a

[gumboot]

DNA testing is quite mobile (http://www.spartanbio.com/products/spartan-dx/) these days.

It only takes a long time when you are dealing with minute samples that must be amplified by PCR.



The Spartan DX cannot do DNA matching to identify a human being. It's designed to rapidly detect the presence of things like HIV or other foreign bodies.

[gumboot]

Not that I think it's likely, or agree with the arguments, but strictly speaking it could be that the killing of OBL was illegal.

:)

[Belz...]

:boggled:

Have you and Jane been hanging out?

Short version: I stated that, from what I knew, it seemed like they didn't want him alive. Then you threw a tantrum about how I claimed to know stuff I couldn't know. I said I did no such thing. Grow up.

[portlandatheist]

Bush is being totally lame and turned down Obama's invite to go to ground zero.
http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/05/05/bin.laden.main/index.html?hpt=T1
That is totally pathetic.

[Marduk]

NEW YORK: Federal prosecutors in Manhattan are expected to file papers to drop all charges and close the case against al-Qaeda chief Osama bin Laden
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/politics/nation/osama-dead-charges-against-bin-laden-expected-to-be-dropped-report/articleshow/8159189.cms

Quick someone tell the Navy Seals before they do something awful
:D

[Cainkane1]

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/politics/nation/osama-dead-charges-against-bin-laden-expected-to-be-dropped-report/articleshow/8159189.cms

Quick someone tell the Navy Seals before they do something awful
:D
Ousama Bin Laden was innocent? Dang I though the SEALS had killed a cold blooded calculating mass murder?????

[JFrankA]

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/politics/nation/osama-dead-charges-against-bin-laden-expected-to-be-dropped-report/articleshow/8159189.cms

Quick someone tell the Navy Seals before they do something awful
:D

HEY YOU GUYS!!! WAIT WAIT WA...oh oh ooooooh....

...just a little too late.

Aw damn.



:D

[Marduk]

Ousama Bin Laden was innocent? Dang I though the SEALS had killed a cold blooded calculating mass murder?????

He didn't have so much as a parking ticket
:D

[Tricky]

I can just hear the lawyers telling his family (in the hypothetical situation that there were some who didn't already know). "I've got some good news and I've got some bad news..."

[Jack by the hedge]

I was about to make some facetious remark along the lines of "He's still dead, then?" when I suddenly realised that a formal dropping of all charges against him is the strongest proof conspiracists are ever likely to get that Osama really is dead. Much better that a picture (Pah! Photoshop).

[Dave Rogers]

I was about to make some facetious remark along the lines of "He's still dead, then?" when I suddenly realised that a formal dropping of all charges against him is the strongest proof conspiracists are ever likely to get that Osama really is dead was never responsible for 9/11 in the first place which is why they never charged him for it.

I put my tinfoil hat on and fixed that for you.

Dave

[Gawdzilla]

The Onion's NSFW take on this. (http://www.theonion.com/articles/osama-bin-laden-death-of-a-mother-**********,20293/)

[nathan]

Hm, apparently the archbishop of Canterbury has weighed in on this Osama thing, saying the shooting of an unarmed Osama makes him 'extremely uncomfortable'. Well, boo bloody hoo. This is just typical CofE wishy washiness. No firm 'this was wrong' (or right, as the case may be), just an 'I feel queasy (let me go lie down for a while)'.

Of course there's the unknown issue of whether the seals there knew whether he was armed or not, or in reach of a self-destruct button, or whether any of his henchmen were booby trapped and waiting for the Bat Signal.

<rant /off>

[Red3]

The guy's a dick. What does he think should be done with a mass murderer - give him a cup of tea and some biscuits and explain he was wrong?

Every time he opens his mouth he pisses me off (shariah law in U.K for example).

[lionking]

Anything which makes the Archbishop of Canterbury uncomfortable is a good thing by me.

[Ivor the Engineer]

JJ is not thinking, she's reacting.

Can't you see she's desperately trying to spin this story any way she can as long as it makes the US look bad?

<snip>

http://mindhacks.com/2011/05/04/why-the-truth-will-out-but-doesnt-sink-in/

Bin Laden used a woman as a human shield and fired at the commando team sent to kill him – at least according to the first reports. These have just been corrected to say he was unarmed and standing alone, but the retractions follow a useful pattern – media friendly version first, accurate version later – because the updates make little impact on our beliefs.

In this particular case, I can’t speculate why the corrections came as they did. Maybe it was genuinely the ‘fog of war’ that led to mistaken early reports, but the fact that the media friendly version almost always appears first in accounts of war is likely, at least sometimes, to be a deliberate strategy.

Research shows that even when news reports have been retracted, and we are aware of the retraction, our beliefs are largely based on the initial erroneous version of the story. This is particularly true when we are motivated to approve of the initial account.

...

So while the latest reports say Bin Laden was alone and unarmed, the majority of people are likely to believe he was firing from behind a human shield, even when they can remember the corrections.

And if this isn’t being used as a deliberate strategy to manage public opinion, I shall eat my kevlar hat.

I'd tend to agree.

Can't wait for Obama/Clinton to criticise Putin et al. for similar behaviour.

[welshdean]

I had just read it and was about to start a thread. I'm not surprised at his remarks, remember that his office refused to condemn the 'Fatwa' on Rushdie instead preferring to urge the government at the time to 'expand' the ridiculous 'blasphemy laws'.

Most religious figures in the United States and United Kingdom shared the aversion to blasphemy of pious Muslims (if not as intensely) and did not defend Rushdie like their secular compatriots. The Archbishop of Canterbury, Robert Runcie, demanded that the government expand the Blasphemy Act to cover other religions, including Islam. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Satanic_Verses_controversy#Western_religious_f igures)
They make me sick.

[TragicMonkey]

Well, as long as his discomfort doesn't rise to turbulence, I think he's safe from the same fate.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Archbishop Williams is an radical islamist apologist. He's George Galloway in a dress.

[Eddie Dane]

Bush is being totally lame and turned down Obama's invite to go to ground zero.
http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/05/05/bin.laden.main/index.html?hpt=T1
That is totally pathetic.

This surprised me.

He says he wants to stay out of the limelight.

[stokes234]

Being uncomfortable with political assassination is a perfectly legitimate ethical stance. On balance I agree with his shooting, but I can understand why people would oppose it.

[lionking]

Being uncomfortable with political assassination is a perfectly legitimate ethical stance. On balance I agree with his shooting, but I can understand why people would oppose it.

How was bin Laden's death a "political assassination"?

[geni]

The guy's a dick. What does he think should be done with a mass murderer - give him a cup of tea and some biscuits and explain he was wrong?

Well under UK law the penalty of for mass murder is life in prison rather than summary execution. See Harold Shipman for example


Every time he opens his mouth he pisses me off (shariah law in U.K for example).

Err if what he said about shariah law pisses you off then you are rejecting some rather fundimental priciples of english and welsh civil law.

[Skeptic]

Bush is being totally lame and turned down Obama's invite to go to ground zero.
http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/05/05/bin.laden.main/index.html?hpt=T1
That is totally pathetic.

I disagree. His spokesman said:

A spokesman for Bush said the former president turned down an invitation to travel to the site of the 9/11 attacks.
"He appreciated the invite, but has chosen in his post-presidency to remain largely out of the spotlight," spokesman David Sherzer said in a statement.

That is, he isn't insulting Obama, he is simply politely refusing to come to an event which might well seem like an attempt to steal Obama's thunder, however unintentionally. What's more, he DID stay "out of the limelight" almost entirely after 2008, so this seems simply like consistent behavior.

I think Obama was correct to invite him, and Bush was correct to refuse politely and without a fuss.

[geni]

How was bin Laden's death a "political assassination"?

Well if we reject classifying bin larden as a combatant then his death was an extrajudicial killing brought about by his political position within al-qaeda.

[Skeptic]

Call me crass and evil, but I couldn't care less if Osama was standing alone and naked as his daughter begged for his life as he were shot. If anybody ever had it coming, it was him.

[aggle-rithm]

JJM is a she? :o

I could be wrong (I've been wrong before), but I get the impression that a lot of truthers with feminine screen names or avatars are actually guys. If the subject comes up, they do nothing to deny or confirm their sex.

It would be consistent with their paranoid state of mind. It's a way of further obfuscating their true identity.

[shuize]

Call me crass and evil, but I couldn't care less if Osama was standing alone and naked as his daughter begged for his life as he were shot. If anybody ever had it coming, it was him.


Yes, I'm happy regardless. But, if the unarmed version is true, it's even better that he did not get the honor of going down fighting.

[stokes234]

How was bin Laden's death a "political assassination"?

He wasn't engaged in combat, and yet he was shot without a request to surrender. That's an assassination, and I would consider the political aspect self-explanatory.

[geni]

He wasn't engaged in combat, and yet he was shot without a request to surrender. That's an assassination, and I would consider the political aspect self-explanatory.

Questionable. Bin laden certianly described himself as a combatant who was at war with the US and if we accept that then the US to shoot him without requesting a surrender.

[Marcus]

Bin Laden’s Daughter Confirms
Father Captured Alive Then Killed By US Special Forces

So Bin Laden, who swore to Allah to never surrender but to go down in a hail of gunfire, inspiring his followers to sacrifice their lives, was all ready to flee with money sewed into his jacket, and didn't dare pick up his gun when troops arrived.

A coward after all.

[Rasmus]

Questionable. Bin laden certianly described himself as a combatant who was at war with the US and if we accept that then the US to shoot him without requesting a surrender.

on the territory of a nation that is neutral wrt that particular war and that is not in a separate war with the US?

[bikerdruid]

Archbishop Williams is an radical islamist apologist. He's George Galloway in a dress.

wow....:rolleyes:

[Polaris]

I could be wrong (I've been wrong before), but I get the impression that a lot of truthers with feminine screen names or avatars are actually guys. If the subject comes up, they do nothing to deny or confirm their sex.

It would be consistent with their paranoid state of mind. It's a way of further obfuscating their true identity.

When dealing with conspiracy theorists, set your mind to internet-dating-mode, excluding (maybe) the FBI Agents part.

[geni]

Hmm an attempt to blame al-Zawahiri

http://thenews.jang.com.pk/NewsDetail.aspx?ID=15135


Saudi properganda? US properganda? first move in the sucession battle in al qaeda? Or just random speculation by a saudi tabloid.

[elgarak]

on the territory of a nation that is neutral wrt that particular war and that is not in a separate war with the US?

Pakistan is, officially, on the side of the USA in this particular war. OBL was behind enemy lines, so to speak. Fully justified combat.

[TragicMonkey]

Pakistan is, officially, on the side of the USA in this particular war. OBL was behind enemy lines, so to speak. Fully justified combat.

And the government is no doubt thankful to have the issue dealt with for them, so they didn't have to either do it themselves and suffer consequences from their residents who liked Bin Laden and his cause, or fail to do it and suffer the wrath of everyone else. They can now sit back and complain about how uppity America is, while being secretly grateful to be absolved of the blame.

[geni]

on the territory of a nation that is neutral wrt that particular war and that is not in a separate war with the US?

History suggests that the correct protocol in such cases is that a formal protest be sent by the neutral nation which will be read with disinterest before being filed under "lost".

Admitedly this usualy comes up when the neutral nation has failed to intern say a cruiser.

[Red3]

Well under UK law the penalty of for mass murder is life in prison rather than summary execution. See Harold Shipman for example

Well luckily Bin Laden wasn't captured or tried by the British,so that's irrelevant and so are the comments by the wet lettuce Rowan Williams.



Err if what he said about shariah law pisses you off then you are rejecting some rather fundimental priciples of english and welsh civil law.

How am I doing that?

I'm not sure how being pissed off at something equals "rejecting some rather fundamental principles of English and Welsh civil law".

[geni]

Well luckily Bin Laden wasn't captured or tried by the British,so that's irrelevant and so are the comments by the wet lettuce Rowan Williams.

And yet you are talking about them. If you are not made uncomfortable about goverments getting involved with extra judical killings you clearly have a lot of faith in them.




How am I doing that?

I'm not sure how being pissed off at something equals "rejecting some rather fundamental principles of English and Welsh civil law".

A fundimental principle of english and welsh civil law is that civil dissputes can be settled by any mechanism that both parties agree to. Thats is what Rowan Williams was talking about.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Being uncomfortable with political assassination is a perfectly legitimate ethical stance. On balance I agree with his shooting, but I can understand why people would oppose it.

I give the soldiers who were there risking their lives the benefit of the doubt in their decision to shoot. If Bin Laden didn't raise his hands to surrender in the first 2 seconds, if OBL made a move toward anything but obvious surrender, split second decisions are part of the deal when you risk your life on a mission such as this one.

So the ethics are misplaced being out of context, not having been there. The Archbishop's position is based on a hypothetical scenario and yet he gives his opinion as if he knows the facts.

[Skeptic Ginger]

JJ != JJM 777.

aOK, my bad. I'll have to go re-read the exchange.


Oh, I see, JJane. :o Sigh... That's what I get for multitasking and not reading carefully.

[Skeptic Ginger]

The Spartan DX cannot do DNA matching to identify a human being. It's designed to rapidly detect the presence of things like HIV or other foreign bodies.

OK, that model looks for a specific genetic marker, but this one has broader uses:

New Portable DNA Screener (http://www.ruraltraining.org/resources/item/new-portable-dna-screener), and they went back to a ship which could have easily had rapid DNA testing capability on board.

DHS to begin using portable DNA screener this summer; Published 1 March 2011 (http://homelandsecuritynewswire.com/dhs-begin-using-portable-dna-screener-summer)DHS this summer plans to begin testing a DNA analyzer that is small enough to be easily portable and fast enough to return results in less than an hour.

The analyzer, about the size of a laser printer, initially will be used to determine kinship among refugees and asylum seekers. It also could help establish whether foreigners giving children up for adoption are their parents or other relatives, and help combat child smuggling and human trafficking, said Christopher Miles, biometrics program manager in the DHS Office of Science and Technology.(emphasis mine)

That was a month ago. I don't know what they used, only that the technology is most likely available and capable.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Short version: I stated that, from what I knew, it seemed like they didn't want him alive. Then you threw a tantrum about how I claimed to know stuff I couldn't know. I said I did no such thing. Grow up.
That is not what you stated. You said it was your understanding, then you said your understanding was based on the thread.

All I said was the thread contained no actual evidence, only supposition. Now you say you meant supposition. Why did what I said bother you? Why didn't you just clarify that you did mean supposition and never meant to imply "understanding" was based on actual evidence?

You are griping over my interpretation of what you meant by "understanding". A waste of thread space, IMO.

[BenBurch]

OK, that model looks for a specific genetic marker, but this one has broader uses:

New Portable DNA Screener (http://www.ruraltraining.org/resources/item/new-portable-dna-screener), and they went back to a ship which could have easily had rapid DNA testing capability on board.

DHS to begin using portable DNA screener this summer; Published 1 March 2011 (http://homelandsecuritynewswire.com/dhs-begin-using-portable-dna-screener-summer)(emphasis mine)

That was a month ago. I don't know what they used, only that the technology is most likely available and capable.

They could easily have asked for and received a working prototype.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Bush is being totally lame and turned down Obama's invite to go to ground zero.
http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/05/05/bin.laden.main/index.html?hpt=T1
That is totally pathetic.
How embarrassing it would be for Bush to have to stand at Ground Zero where he swore to get Bin Laden dead or alive, next to the guy who actually did get Bin Laden.

[BenBurch]

How embarrassing it would be for Bush to have to stand at Ground Zero where he swore to get Bin Laden dead or alive, next to the guy who actually did get Bin Laden.

That, and he has a lot of people who don't much care for him. Security would have been a much bigger problem than for just Obama.

[Skeptic Ginger]

They could easily have asked for and received a working prototype.Or two months after the company's news release the product was actually in use.

[Greedo]

That, and he has a lot of people who don't much care for him. Security would have been a much bigger problem than for just Obama.


I think GWB coming to Ground Zero would have led to a lot of booing, and embarrassing moments for the 43rd president of the US.

[BenBurch]

Or two months after the company's news release the product was actually in use.

The era is coming when your ID card will have your M-DNA profile on it.

[Skeptic Ginger]

I could be wrong (I've been wrong before), but I get the impression that a lot of truthers with feminine screen names or avatars are actually guys. If the subject comes up, they do nothing to deny or confirm their sex.

It would be consistent with their paranoid state of mind. It's a way of further obfuscating their true identity.That was my bad, see above. It was JJ as in Jihad Jane not JJM that was referred to in the post.

[Mark6]

That was my bad, see above. It was JJ as in Jihad Jane not JJM that was referred to in the post.
It's OK, they are both paranoid truthers! :)

Although I think JJ is just a troll who likes to get a rise out of people.

[Rodney]

How embarrassing it would be for Bush to have to stand at Ground Zero where he swore to get Bin Laden dead or alive, next to the guy who actually did get Bin Laden.
If Obama got Bin Laden, does that mean Bush got Saddam?

[Red3]

And yet you are talking about them. If you are not made uncomfortable about goverments getting involved with extra judical killings you clearly have a lot of faith in them.

OBL is an extremely dangerous individual, it doesn't take the government to be involved in some "extra judicial killing", just some extremely capable and cautious soldiers doing their job. As someone more or less pointed out, if Bin Laden did anything other than surrender he was bound to get shot. This is not even a moral issue - he's the most wanted man in the world with the blood of thousands of people on his hands. Even if the gvmnt did give the order to shoot, who cares? The circumstances of the "victim" come into play heavily. I could understand of he was some political agitator or maybe even a normal garden variety killer,but in OBL's case - screw him and his rights.

A fundimental principle of english and welsh civil law is that civil dissputes can be settled by any mechanism that both parties agree to. Thats is what Rowan Williams was talking about.

So where is the need for (parts of) sharia law to be present in the English common law? If it's agreed by both parties (in specific cases) it must be valid by what you just said, it doesn't need for it to be part of the legal system.

[PhreePhly]

Has anyone made the argument that Bush didn't get Saddam?

[Ivor the Engineer]

I give the soldiers who were there risking their lives the benefit of the doubt in their decision to shoot. If Bin Laden didn't raise his hands to surrender in the first 2 seconds, if OBL made a move toward anything but obvious surrender, split second decisions are part of the deal when you risk your life on a mission such as this one.

So the ethics are misplaced being out of context, not having been there. The Archbishop's position is based on a hypothetical scenario and yet he gives his opinion as if he knows the facts.

As is yours and as have you.

:)

IMO, Osama Bin Laden was not coming out of that house alive because the alternative was considered by those in authority as far too complicated and/or problematic. That makes me feel uncomfortable.

[BenBurch]

Has anyone made the argument that Bush didn't get Saddam?

Several times with the expected rancor from GWB fanbois.

[Darat]

...snip...

So where is the need for (parts of) sharia law to be present in the English common law? If it's agreed by both parties (in specific cases) it must be valid by what you just said, it doesn't need for it to be part of the legal system.

I think when Williams made his remarks he was very unclear and seemed to me to not understand the legal system. From the BBC report at the time: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7232661.stm

I'm going to start with this to get it out of the way:

...snip....

He stresses that "nobody in their right mind would want to see in this country the kind of inhumanity that's sometimes been associated with the practice of the law in some Islamic states; the extreme punishments, the attitudes to women as well".

...snip...

So we can avoid any idea that he is talking about any of the many excesses and barbarism we see within some countries that adopt a system of sharia law.

The article reports that:

"For example, Muslims could choose to have marital disputes or financial matters dealt with in a Sharia court."

This is where I think he is both unclear and perhaps ignorant of English law as the above would not be any change in the legal system. (The current government is pushing this further and wants all but the rich to have arbitration resolve marital disputes rather than the civil courts.)

There's a place for finding what would be a constructive accommodation with some aspects of Muslim law, as we already do with some other aspects of religious law."

Again it is unclear but it could be referring to "Beth Din courts" which have been around for a long time and are allowed based on our legal right to choose arbitration to settle certain civil matters. If he is referring to Beth Din courts then again there would be no requirement for any change in the law.

[Red3]

I think when Williams made his remarks he was very unclear and seemed to me to not understand the legal system...

I don't understand why he needed to say anything it all. The whole issue could have gone quietly by with most "people in the street" having no idea about sharia/common law. It was almost inflammatory at the time - he just waded in for no good reason and set the tabloids alight with nonsense.

And this is kind of similar. He doesn't know what happened and yet he's waded in again.

[PhreePhly]

Several times with the expected rancor from GWB fanbois.

I've appaqrently missed those arguments and I doubt I want to get involved at this point. I never saw the argument presented in this thread and didn't realise it was raised at the time of Saddam's capture

[Meridian]

Well, as long as his discomfort doesn't rise to turbulence, I think he's safe from the same fate.

:)

[Skeptic Ginger]

If Obama got Bin Laden, does that mean Bush got Saddam?

Not sure what this is supposed to mean. My personal view on the matter is the cost, both economic and lives lost, because Bush was bent on using 9-11 as an excuse to invade Iraq was not worth what benefit we have seen to date and what benefit I expect to ever see from that self righteous decision.

[mortimer]

The Onion's NSFW take on this. (http://www.theonion.com/articles/osama-bin-laden-death-of-a-mother-**********,20293/)
Pretty cool but the autocensor killed the link ;)

I shortened the URL: http://onion.com/mB7a54

[Resume]

If Obama got Bin Laden, does that mean Bush got Saddam?

Has anyone made the argument that Bush didn't get Saddam?

I have heard that Saddam got a lot of bush.

sorry.

[Checkmite]

Hm, apparently the archbishop of Canterbury has weighed in on this Osama thing, saying the shooting of an unarmed Osama makes him 'extremely uncomfortable'.

I suppose that explains why they send SEALs and not priests to do this kind of work.

[triforcharity]

Bush is being totally lame and turned down Obama's invite to go to ground zero.
http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/05/05/bin.laden.main/index.html?hpt=T1
That is totally pathetic.

I agree 100%. He should have gone, even for just a few minutes.

[Skeptical Greg]

I suppose that explains why they send SEALs and not priests to do this kind of work.Win !

I agree 100%. He should have gone, even for just a few minutes.

Oh, that would be great !

Imagine the uproar over him leaving early ....

[thaiboxerken]

I heard Obama was doing a burnout at ground zero and busting out the champaign....just ask Rush.

[BenBurch]

I heard Obama was doing a burnout at ground zero and busting out the champaign....just ask Rush.

Did that drug-addled barrel of pork really say that?

[Checkmite]

Bin Laden’s Daughter Confirms
Father Captured Alive Then Killed By US Special Forces

EXTRACT:

The official said a 12-year-old daughter of bin Laden was among the six children rescued from the three-storey compound.

The daughter has reportedly told her Pakistani investigators that the US forces captured her father alive but shot him dead in front of family members.

According to sources, Bin Laden was staying on the ground floor of the house and was dragged on the floor to the helicopter after being shot dead by US commandos.

There were conflicting reports about the second person the US forces took along with them. Some Pakistani officials say it was one of Bin Laden’s sons injured by the US commandos and thrown onto a separate military chopper; others say he was killed in the operation and it was only his dead body that they took along.

The officials say not all children rescued from the house belonged to the al-Qaeda leader. All were being kept at a safe place. The US has not been given access to the detained women and children, the officials claimed. About the second woman, many officials feel she could be a close relative of Osama or his servant.

Similarly, according to information Pakistani officials collected from detained persons, Osama was neither armed nor did inmates at the compound fire at the US choppers or commandos.

“Not a single bullet was fired from the compound at the US forces and their choppers. Their chopper developed some technical fault and crashed and the wreckage was left on the spot,” a well-informed official explained.


/EXTRACT.

http://english.alarabiya.net/articles/2011/05/04/147782.html

Solves the 'did we really kill him' question, at least.

[Rodney]

Not sure what this is supposed to mean.
When you say that Obama is the "guy who actually did get Bin Laden", you seem to be implying that Obama pursued a different policy toward Bin Laden than Bush did, as opposed to happening to be President when Bin Laden was finally tracked down by military intelligence. Let me ask it another way: If McCain had been elected, do you think that Bin Laden would not have been tracked down in the same time frame?

[Tricky]

When you say that Obama is the "guy who actually did get Bin Laden", you seem to be implying that Obama pursued a different policy toward Bin Laden than Bush did, as opposed to happening to be President when Bin Laden was finally tracked down by military intelligence. Let me ask it another way: If McCain had been elected, do you think that Bin Laden would not have been tracked down in the same time frame?
The main difference in the Obama policy vs. the Bush (and McCain, based on his campaign speeches) policy was that he stopped splitting our resources between Iraq and Afghanistan/Taliban. He beefed up the troops in Afghanistan and made it the main focus of our activities, including our intelligence activities. Did that help us get OBL faster? Maybe. It certainly didn't hurt.

[Rodney]

He beefed up the troops in Afghanistan and made it the main focus of our activities, including our intelligence activities.
So beefing up the troops in Afghanistan helped track down Bin Laden in Pakistan?

[triforcharity]

He wasn't engaged in combat, and yet he was shot without a request to surrender. That's an assassination, and I would consider the political aspect self-explanatory.

This is what we call baseless speculation presented as fact.

[Tricky]

So beefing up the troops in Afghanistan helped track down Bin Laden in Pakistan?
That's why I specifically said Afghanistan/Taliban. I wanted to make it clear that the purpose of the forces (while they might focus in Afghanistan) was to track down the Taliban in the area, which included northern Pakistan. As you know, borders don't mean that much in that part of the world, and if you've been following the news, there have been numerous raids, especially by drones, into Pakistan.

I guess I should have tried harder to make it clear for those that thought the troops in Iraq were fightning the Taliban.

[Rodney]

That's why I specifically said Afghanistan/Taliban. I wanted to make it clear that the purpose of the forces (while they might focus in Afghanistan) was to track down the Taliban in the area, which included northern Pakistan. As you know, borders don't mean that much in that part of the world, and if you've been following the news, there have been numerous raids, especially by drones, into Pakistan.

I guess I should have tried harder to make it clear for those that thought the troops in Iraq were fightning the Taliban.
The problem with your logic is that Bin Laden began living in his Pakistan compound 5-6 years ago. Had U.S. intelligence gotten lucky with Bin Laden the way it did with Saddam, Bin Laden would have been tracked down before Obama became President. So, while I applaud Obama for continuing the pursuit of Bin Laden, I can't identify anything that he did in that pursuit that Bush did not do.

[Skeptic Ginger]

When you say that Obama is the "guy who actually did get Bin Laden", you seem to be implying that Obama pursued a different policy toward Bin Laden than Bush did, as opposed to happening to be President when Bin Laden was finally tracked down by military intelligence. Let me ask it another way: If McCain had been elected, do you think that Bin Laden would not have been tracked down in the same time frame?
Obama did pursue a different tack. I posted documentation of it.

[Skeptic Ginger]

The main difference in the Obama policy vs. the Bush (and McCain, based on his campaign speeches) policy was that he stopped splitting our resources between Iraq and Afghanistan/Taliban. He beefed up the troops in Afghanistan and made it the main focus of our activities, including our intelligence activities. Did that help us get OBL faster? Maybe. It certainly didn't hurt.

More than that. Under Bush the CIA task force looking for Osama was disbanded. Under Obama the effort was returned to the initial priority assignment.

[Skeptic Ginger]

So beefing up the troops in Afghanistan helped track down Bin Laden in Pakistan?
It may have helped. At a minimum it reflected the changed priorities. Saddam had nothing to do with 9-11.

[Skeptic Ginger]

The problem with your logic is that Bin Laden began living in his Pakistan compound 5-6 years ago. Had U.S. intelligence gotten lucky with Bin Laden the way it did with Saddam, Bin Laden would have been tracked down before Obama became President. So, while I applaud Obama for continuing the pursuit of Bin Laden, I can't identify anything that he did in that pursuit that Bush did not do.Lucky?

I do believe you are distorting the facts. Bush diverted resources away from OBL and toward Iraq.

[Tricky]

The problem with your logic is that Bin Laden began living in his Pakistan compound 5-6 years ago. Had U.S. intelligence gotten lucky with Bin Laden the way it did with Saddam, Bin Laden would have been tracked down before Obama became President. So, while I applaud Obama for continuing the pursuit of Bin Laden, I can't identify anything that he did in that pursuit that Bush did not do.
You seem to be under the impression that I don't give Bush any credit. I do. I did so the same day we heard the news. (I can link my post if you like.) You asked what the differences were. I gave you some possibilities, along with a caveat that "maybe" it made a difference.

There is no doubt that Obama changed the priorities of the military and of the intelligence. It is impossible to say whether or not that change is "the" thing that led us to Osama bin Laden, but it is obvious that by changing the focus back to the Taliban and al Qaeda in Afghanistan/Pakistan, it probably increased the odds.

[Clayton Moore]

The Onion's NSFW take on this. (http://www.theonion.com/articles/osama-bin-laden-death-of-a-mother-**********,20293/)

The page you were looking for is not here.

[Mister Earl]

I agree 100%. He should have gone, even for just a few minutes.

I can see both sides of it.

On one, he was running the show when the attack happened, so it'd be nice for him to be there at the end.

On the other, he's sworn off politics (I can't blame him there at all), and despite the nature of the event, it will necessarily invoke politics.

[thaiboxerken]

Did that drug-addled barrel of pork really say that?

Not exactly, he just called it a victory lap.

[Skeptic]

The UN human rights commission now wants the details of the operation -- to make sure it complied with international law, of course. Bet you couldn't see that one coming.

[Eddie Dane]

The UN human rights commission now wants the details of the operation -- to make sure it complied with international law, of course. Bet you couldn't see that one coming.

Do you have their email address?

I could drop them a line informing them that this was not legal under international law.

Save them some work.

[triforcharity]

The problem with your logic is that Bin Laden began living in his Pakistan compound 5-6 years ago. Had U.S. intelligence gotten lucky with Bin Laden the way it did with Saddam, Bin Laden would have been tracked down before Obama became President. So, while I applaud Obama for continuing the pursuit of Bin Laden, I can't identify anything that he did in that pursuit that Bush did not do.

Bush IIRC, cut funding and wasn't entirely focused on bin laden. He seemed to be more focused on hussein et al. in Iraq.

But, I will agree that both presidents deserve much credit.

[RedIbis]

The UN human rights commission now wants the details of the operation -- to make sure it complied with international law, of course. Bet you couldn't see that one coming.

Yeah, how dare they want facts.

[Resume]

Yeah, how dare they want facts.

They never seemed to let them get in the way in the past. I wonder why this time. Hmmm, let me think. Could it be . . . The Great Satan!?

[ZouPrime]

The UN human rights commission now wants the details of the operation -- to make sure it complied with international law, of course. Bet you couldn't see that one coming.

Well, since the US has not recognized the legitimacy of the International Court of Justice, I'm not sure what they expect here... unless i'm missing something.

[Rodney]

Under Bush the CIA task force looking for Osama was disbanded.
According to a July 4, 2006 New York Times article:

"The realignment reflects a view that Al Qaeda is no longer as hierarchical as it once was, intelligence officials said, and a growing concern about Qaeda-inspired groups that have begun carrying out attacks independent of Mr. bin Laden and his top deputy, Ayman al-Zawahiri.

"Agency officials said that tracking Mr. bin Laden and his deputies remained a high priority, and that the decision to disband the unit was not a sign that the effort had slackened. Instead, the officials said, it reflects a belief that the agency can better deal with high-level threats by focusing on regional trends rather than on specific organizations or individuals.

"'The efforts to find Osama bin Laden are as strong as ever,' said Jennifer Millerwise Dyck, a C.I.A. spokeswoman. 'This is an agile agency, and the decision was made to ensure greater reach and focus.'" See http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/04/washington/04intel.html

[Skeptic]

Yeah, how dare they want facts.

I'll bet they do. Most leaders of the countries on the UN's human rights commission (Libya, Syria...) are more or less next in line for such operations by the US, so the more facts they get about how the raid happened, the more likely they are to prepare for such a raid on themselves.

[RedIbis]

I'll bet they do. Most leaders of the countries on the UN's human rights commission (Libya, Syria...) are more or less next in line for such operations by the US, so the more facts they get about how the raid happened, the more likely they are to prepare for such a raid on themselves.

Neither Lybia nor Syria are current members of the Human Rights Council.

[Skeptic]

Yup, I forgot -- Libya was just kicked out and Syria was just elected instead... a real changing of the guard, that.

[Skeptic Ginger]

According to a July 4, 2006 New York Times article:

"The realignment reflects a view that Al Qaeda is no longer as hierarchical as it once was, intelligence officials said, and a growing concern about Qaeda-inspired groups that have begun carrying out attacks independent of Mr. bin Laden and his top deputy, Ayman al-Zawahiri.

"Agency officials said that tracking Mr. bin Laden and his deputies remained a high priority, and that the decision to disband the unit was not a sign that the effort had slackened. Instead, the officials said, it reflects a belief that the agency can better deal with high-level threats by focusing on regional trends rather than on specific organizations or individuals.

"'The efforts to find Osama bin Laden are as strong as ever,' said Jennifer Millerwise Dyck, a C.I.A. spokeswoman. 'This is an agile agency, and the decision was made to ensure greater reach and focus.'" See http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/04/washington/04intel.htmlI already linked to this report.

See my whole post on Bush's ball drop. (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=7143663#post7143663)

[Rodney]

I already linked to this report.

See my whole post on Bush's ball drop. (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=7143663#post7143663)
If you truly believe that -- "Bush wasn't looking for him seriously and after 2005, not much at all" -- you should be working for the Daily Kos, which will be happy to indulge your fantasies.

[leftysergeant]

If you truly believe that -- "Bush wasn't looking for him seriously and after 2005, not much at all" -- you should be working for the Daily Kos, which will be happy to indulge your fantasies.It was not his chief priority, nor did he have an effective staff under his direct command doing anything useful.

Rummy and Porter Goss were pretty much a waste of government funds. The military successes and intelligence gathering feats were more in spite of their bumbling and wanton berserker tactics than because of them.

[Skeptic Ginger]

If you truly believe that -- "Bush wasn't looking for him seriously and after 2005, not much at all" -- you should be working for the Daily Kos, which will be happy to indulge your fantasies.
You can believe what your bias confirms. I base my conclusion on:

Bush's own words
Bush gong after Saddam and letting Bin Laden get away at Tora Bora
The dissolution of the CIA task force looking for Bin Laden since 1996, established by Clinton and ended under Bush
The fact Bush did not get Bin Laden

Your evidence appears to be what you believe was likely, but you don't have evidence to back up that supposition.

[Jeff Corey]

So I walk into a bar and the barperson said, "Would you like a Bin Laden cocktail?"
I say, "What's that?"

[Cleon]

This just in: He's still dead. We anticipate his imminent swim to the surface, to forever wander the Earth while feasting on the flesh of the living.

[MattusMaximus]

Update: now even Al Qaeda acknowledges that OBL was killed.
(http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110507/ap_on_re_us/bin_laden_al_qaida)

[dtugg]

What is the UN going to do if they determine that the operation was illegal? Arrest Obama and take him to the The Hague? lol

[Travis]

Kinda embarrassing for Pakistan that an American commando team was flown right into the heart of the country and then taken back out. I wonder if India was taking notes?

[GlennB]

Kinda embarrassing for Pakistan that an American commando team was flown right into the heart of the country and then taken back out. I wonder if India was taking notes?

I'd be amazed if Pakistan were not complicit in this operation, while maintaining plausible deniability and thus being able to put on a public show of outrage.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Kinda embarrassing for Pakistan that an American commando team was flown right into the heart of the country and then taken back out. I wonder if India was taking notes?

I wonder if India has secret, peviously unseen stealth helicopters?

[JFrankA]

So I walk into a bar and the barperson said, "Would you like a Bin Laden cocktail?"
I say, "What's that?"

Two shots and a splash of water!!!!

http://instantrimshot.com/index.php?sound=rimshot&play=true

(Sorry, I'm sure all of you heard it, I just can't leave a joke hanging. :) )

[JFrankA]

By the way, according to reports, it wasn't the intel from the CIA that found Bin Laden.

...it seems that Bin Laden owned an IPhone AND a Playstation.......

http://instantrimshot.com/index.php?sound=rimshot&play=true

(Okay, this concludes this break of levity. I'm done, you can all go back to debating and being all serious......) :)

[ScottyMate]

I'd be amazed if Pakistan were not complicit in this operation, while maintaining plausible deniability and thus being able to put on a public show of outrage.

But if it's true that Bin Laden had been there for years, why did the ISI not tell the US before now? Plus according to Panetta they weren't 100% sure Bin Laden was going to be there.

I see what you're saying, but I don't think the US could trust Pakistan as far as they could throw them.

[Joey McGee]

U.S. to release Osama bin Laden 'home videos

http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/World/20110507/osama-bin-laden-home-video-110507/

The tapes reportedly show bin Laden strolling the fortified grounds of his compound in the Pakistani garrison town of Abbottabad.

Next generation PSYOP probly, CGI bin Laden in the works for years...

[Greedo]

U.S. to release Osama bin Laden 'home videos

http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/World/20110507/osama-bin-laden-home-video-110507/
...
.

So Osama dyed his beard? :o


"Sources say Bin Laden thought of himself as the CEO of terror and mass murder" Well, I guess he wasn't the only one.

[leftysergeant]

It just occurred to me that the way ObL was shot supports the idea that the SEALs thought he might be going for a weapon. He is said to have come partly out of the room. Had he surrendered right there, unarmed, he might have been taken alive.

That he was not in full view supports a claim that he might have been going for a weapon.

I base the assertion that he was probably not in full view on the fact that he was shot in the head.

Military doctrine is very clear that one shoots for the center of body mass. Head shots are a bad idea. Too much chance you will miss.

I'm guessing that his head was the only part visible when they fired.

Don't you think it reasonable that they should assume him to be armed already considering the noise they had to have made already?

[Greedo]

It just occurred to me that the way ObL was shot supports the idea that the SEALs thought he might be going for a weapon
...

...
Don't you think it reasonable that they should assume him to be armed already considering the noise they had to have made already?

IIRC, the Seals apparently were given orders to shoot if he was wearing clothes (risk of him having explosives on him).

[leftysergeant]

IIRC, the Seals apparently were given orders to shoot if he was wearing clothes (risk of him having explosives on him).Source?

[Greedo]

Source?

I can't remember where I read or heard it, may have been the radio. But I have to admit, googling for a source, I can't find a single credible one.

So regarding this:

IIRC, the Seals apparently were given orders to shoot if he was wearing clothes (risk of him having explosives on him).


I take that back.

[JihadJane]

The moral degeneratoin of America, the Shining City on the Hill, is complete.

Osama bin Laden won.

[Marcus]

The moral degeneration of Osama bin Laden was already complete.

America, the Shining City on the Hill, has won this round.

[dafydd]

The moral degeneratoin of America, the Shining City on the Hill, is complete.

Osama bin Laden won.

Don't be so stupid. Will you be taking down the pin up of Bin Laden from your bedroom wall now?

[lionking]

The moral degeneratoin of America, the Shining City on the Hill, is complete.

Osama bin Laden won.

Yup, he won in the same manner as the Black Knight in the Holy Grail.

[Ivor the Engineer]

The moral degeneratoin of America, the Shining City on the Hill, is complete.

<snip>

I think you're significantly misunderestimating the USA's capacity for moral degeneration.

[Skeptic]

Osama bin Laden won.

If being found, shot dead, and dumped in the sea is winning, I shudder to think what him losing would be like.

[Ziggurat]

Osama bin Laden won.

http://memegenerator.net/instance/7684498

[bikerdruid]

If being found, shot dead, and dumped in the sea is winning, I shudder to think what him losing would be like.

the point is that his cause was reinforced by this act.
he lost his life, but his death will strengthen his followers.
i certainly do not mourn his death, and , while i may have some sympathy for his cause, i vigoursly deplore his methods.

[bikerdruid]

http://memegenerator.net/instance/7684498

so you agree with jane?
why the blank post?

[Skeptic Ginger]

http://memegenerator.net/instance/7684498

I think the link is broken.

[Skeptic Ginger]

The moral degeneratoin of America, the Shining City on the Hill, is complete.

Osama bin Laden won.Do you think these thoughts through?

What has changed?

Yes, there were some very bad things, the destruction and lives lost. (Not that those weren't bad enough.) We had some needless infringement on our rights, torture, Gitmo and the rest of the issues regarding trial-less detentions. And it cost billions and additional lives were lost in Bush's war. (But, who knows, maybe Bush would have found another excuse to invade Iraq, there was evidence he had plans.)

But all that is passing now, things are going back to normal. You can't say any of those effects of Bin Laden's disgusting lunacy were permanent. Killing him marks the end of the era. After a little mopping up, you'll find people have not changed in the way you are concluding. Bin Laden changed nothing permanently on the whole anymore than McCarthy or Hitler did.

[Ziggurat]

I think the link is broken.

Yes, it is. Something went really wrong with my browser when I tried to fix it, causing repeated crashes. Basically, I was trying to link to a picture of Charlie Sheen, I think you can figure out the rest from there.

[Ziggurat]

the point is that his cause was reinforced by this act.

Uh, no. No, it wasn't. Osama himself acknowledged that the attraction of his cause was because he was seen as being strong, not because his cause actually offers some enlightened moral truth. Well, not so much now. Osama did the best anyone could ever hope to do in evading reprisals from the US. And it wasn't enough. The message here is that no one can strike at the US like that and remain safe, that we will hunt terrorists down and kill them wherever they hide, however long it takes, that no amount of secrecy can protect them. That doesn't reinforce his cause, it weakens it. Bin Laden died in hiding, like a coward. Not on the battlefield like a hero.

he lost his life, but his death will strengthen his followers.

No, it will not. His death is actually pretty much irrelevant next to all the information that we captured in the process, which will further expose his network to attack. That will weaken them immeasurably. Secrecy was their only effective shield, and we're piercing it.

i certainly do not mourn his death, and , while i may have some sympathy for his cause, i vigoursly deplore his methods.

You have some sympathy for establishing a caliphate ruled by radical fundamentalist interpretations of Sharia law which would include the stoning of homosexuals?

Maybe you really are into that voluntary human extinction movement.

[Pardalis]

The moral degeneratoin of America, the Shining City on the Hill, is complete.

Osama bin Laden won.

OBL has better morals you think?

[WildCat]

i may have some sympathy for his cause
You have sympathy for an Islamic caliphate where women have no rights and punishment for crimes consists of whippings and slicing off various body parts?

[Keeper]

Yup, he won in the same manner as the Black Knight in the Holy Grail.

Not quite, the latter would have floated better.

[applecorped]

The moral degeneratoin of America, the Shining City on the Hill, is complete.

Osama bin Laden won.

Charlie Sheen and OBL


Winning!!!!

[Pardalis]

You have sympathy for an Islamic caliphate where women have no rights and punishment for crimes consists of whippings and slicing off various body parts?

Maybe Biker Druid doesn't know what OBL thinks of homosexuals and atheists?

[applecorped]

Maybe Biker Druid doesn't know what OBL thinks thought of homosexuals and atheists?

ftfy

[Pardalis]

Right, got to get used to that. :D

[Skeptical Greg]

I wonder if India has secret, peviously unseen stealth helicopters?How would we know ?

[Rodney]

Bin Laden changed nothing permanently on the whole anymore than McCarthy or Hitler did.
Are you referring to Eugene, Mary, or Joe McCarthy? They each killed the same number of people.

[BenBurch]

How would we know ?

point

[Sword_Of_Truth]

while i may have some sympathy for his cause,

"I have been commanded to fight until none but muslims are left."
- Osama Bin Laden, September 2001

You're going to have to explain how a druid, or a member of any religion other than Islam, can sympathize with OBLs cause since it would mean the extinction of their faith.

[lionking]

the point is that his cause was reinforced by this act.
he lost his life, but his death will strengthen his followers.
i certainly do not mourn his death, and , while i may have some sympathy for his cause, i vigoursly deplore his methods.

Yeah? What followers? Where's the massive retaliation to OBL's death?

No, Al Quada is impotent, possibly to the disappointment of some.

[dafydd]

The moral degeneratoin of America, the Shining City on the Hill, is complete.

Osama bin Laden won.

I'm all for a bit of moral degeneration,it's great fun. Try it sometime.

[dafydd]

OBL has better morals you think?

Had. Isn't it good to be able to say that?

[dafydd]

"I have been commanded to fight until none but muslims are left."
- Osama Bin Laden, September 2001

You're going to have to explain how a druid, or a member of any religion other than Islam, can sympathize with OBLs cause since it would mean the extinction of their faith.

That puzzled me too. OBL wanted me to be wiped from the face of the Earth too. I took it personally.

[JihadJane]

"Why, in the absence of a fire fight, would U.S. forces put a bullet through the brain supposedly containing the most valuable intelligence on the planet?"

Media Scrambles as Bin Laden Story Crumbles (http://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/politics/7387-media-scrambles-as-bin-laden-story-crumbles)

[applecorped]

"Why, in the absence of a fire fight, would U.S. forces put a bullet through the brain supposedly containing the most valuable intelligence on the planet?"

Media Scrambles as Bin Laden Story Crumbles (http://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/politics/7387-media-scrambles-as-bin-laden-story-crumbles)

Yeah, we should have water boarded him. You'd go along with that, right?

[JihadJane]

But all that is passing now, things are going back to normal.

That's really funny!


Yeah, we should have water boarded him. You'd go along with that, right?

Is that the only kind of interrogation that the US is capable of now? :rolleyes:

Well and truly dumbed down....


I think you're significantly misunderestimating the USA's capacity for moral degeneration.

Yeah, maybe you're right! :)

[applecorped]

That's really funny!




Is that the only kind of interrogation that the US is capable of now? :rolleyes:

Well and truly dumbed down....




Yeah, maybe you're right! :)

So, you're answer is ...? You're assuming we could have extracted anything from him. We recovered a lot of info during the raid which you have no idea yet of what use it will be.


Dumbed down indeed.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Are you referring to Eugene, Mary, or Joe McCarthy? They each killed the same number of people.Joe.

I wasn't specifically referring to numbers of deaths. I was referring to contagious social beliefs that came and went. Jane seems to think whatever changes occurred in the people in the US as result of Bin Laden's attacks, the morals of the country changed.

It's nonsense. Just because Germany went through the Hitler era and the US went through the Red Scare nonsense does not mean the social changes were anything more than a temporary response to current events.

[bikerdruid]

That puzzled me too. OBL wanted me to be wiped from the face of the Earth too. I took it personally.

i can understand his hatred for american exploitation and control in the middle east, and i can have some sympathy for his initial motivations, which were:

ending American military presence in the Middle East and the Arabian Peninsula,[1][2] overthrowing Arab regimes he considers corrupt and insufficiently religious,[1][2] ending American support for Israel,[3][4] and returning East Timor and Kashmir to Muslim rule.[5]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_terrorism

that is the limit of my stated "some sympathy".

[shuize]

Well and truly dumbed down....


As Ziggurat noted above, the killing of Osama while in hiding was a double blow to Al Queda both in terms of operations and image.

But, just out of curiosity, how do you feel about the targeted killing of Admiral Yamamoto in World War II?

[Rodney]

Joe.

I wasn't specifically referring to numbers of deaths. I was referring to contagious social beliefs that came and went. Jane seems to think whatever changes occurred in the people in the US as result of Bin Laden's attacks, the morals of the country changed.

It's nonsense. Just because Germany went through the Hitler era and the US went through the Red Scare nonsense does not mean the social changes were anything more than a temporary response to current events.

I agree that the U.S. killing, rather than capturing, Bin Laden does not mean that the country is in moral decline (although I think more would have been gained by interrogating him than will be gained from analyzing all of the computer drives found in his home). However, it seems to me that associating a firebrand politician with two mass murderers is an inappropriate way to make that point.

[dtugg]

So bikerdruid is an Osama sympathizer. Huge shocker.

[triforcharity]

i can understand his hatred for american exploitation and control in the middle east, and i can have some sympathy for his initial motivations, which were:

ending American military presence in the Middle East and the Arabian Peninsula,[1][2] overthrowing Arab regimes he considers corrupt and insufficiently religious,[1][2] ending American support for Israel,[3][4] and returning East Timor and Kashmir to Muslim rule.[5]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_terrorism

that is the limit of my stated "some sympathy".

So, you have sympathy for someone who was ticked off that Saudi Arabia asked for the US to assist them when S.H. invaded Kuwait and S.A, and instead of making his case and trying to do better in the future, he decided to got on a murderous rampage?

Wow, that's awesome. :rolleyes:

[bikerdruid]

So bikerdruid is an Osama sympathizer. Huge shocker.

So, you have sympathy for someone who was ticked off that Saudi Arabia asked for the US to assist them when S.H. invaded Kuwait and S.A, and instead of making his case and trying to do better in the future, he decided to got on a murderous rampage?

Wow, that's awesome. :rolleyes:

insomuch as i sympathize with anyone who struggles for freedom against american corporate tyranny, yes, his other issues notwithstanding.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

insomuch as i sympathize with anyone who struggles for freedom against american corporate tyranny, yes, his other issues notwithstanding.

Osama Bin Laden only ever had three issues.

1.) He hated jews.

2.) Thinks there's only three people in the world; Muslim, Not Muslim and Not Muslim enough. Wants to kill all of the last two and some of the first.

3.) Was embarrassed and humiliated at being rejected by the House of Saud in favor of a real fighting force and didn't want the world thinking he had a tinky-winky.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

BTW, Osama Bin Laden sucks glock.

[bikerdruid]

BTW, Osama Bin Laden sucks glock.

not any more......he's dead, doncha know?

[Sword_Of_Truth]

not any more......he's dead, doncha know?

Being a glock-sucker isn't the kind of thing that you take up as a habit.

[Marcus]

Yes, it is. Something went really wrong with my browser when I tried to fix it, causing repeated crashes. Basically, I was trying to link to a picture of Charlie Sheen, I think you can figure out the rest from there.
How about a nice picture of Dead Osama with the bullet hole in his head ( I'm sure we will see it eventually) with the caption "Winning!".

[Marcus]

As Ziggurat noted above, the killing of Osama while in hiding was a double blow to Al Queda both in terms of operations and image.

But, just out of curiosity, how do you feel about the targeted killing of Admiral Yamamoto in World War II?

Yes, Osama went out like a coward, instead of in a blaze of glory, when he declined to pick up his weapons. This may not look important to us with our western mindset, but these are not the actions of a Muslim hero.

[triforcharity]

insomuch as i sympathize with anyone who struggles for freedom against american corporate tyranny, yes, his other issues notwithstanding.

Do you not understand what got Osama started on this rampage temper tantrum?

Here, let me break it down for you.

Saudia Arabia is invaded by Iraq.

Saudia Arabia is offered assistance by bin Laden and the USA.

The USA is chosen to help defend them against Hussein.

bin Laden feels jaded that Americans were chosen over him to defend S.A.

And as opposed to going over to his corner and crying, then building a bridge and getting the **** over it, he gets his panties in a twist and goes on a rampage.



Now, what part of that do you support?

Where does corporate America come into play?

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Saudia Arabia is invaded by Iraq.


Iraq invaded Kuwait (mass killing muslims is ok when other muslims do it :rolleyes: ), making the Saudis very nervous.

[Ziggurat]

i can understand his hatred for american exploitation and control in the middle east, and i can have some sympathy for his initial motivations

Take off your blinders, bikerdruid. Bin Laden hated everything about you. He wanted you and everyone like you dead. And he wanted you dead because of what you believe and how you feel, not because of anything you every did. Such a person deserves no sympathy from you, and your "understanding" is nothing more than selective blindness.

[Ziggurat]

"Why, in the absence of a fire fight, would U.S. forces put a bullet through the brain supposedly containing the most valuable intelligence on the planet?"

Because that intelligence can be obtained more easily from the computers and documents obtained at his residence, because you shoot BEFORE a firefight erupts if you can, and because aside from firearms, al Qaeda is also known to use explosives.

The fact that the administration is incompetent in explaining events doesn't mean the SEALs didn't know what they were doing. They did.

[Ivor the Engineer]

<snip>

The fact that the administration is incompetent in explaining events doesn't mean the SEALs didn't know what they were doing. They did.

Are they? (http://mindhacks.com/2011/05/04/why-the-truth-will-out-but-doesnt-sink-in/) I'm not so sure. (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1530-2415.2010.01214.x/full)

[Toke]

Invading a foreing country to assasinate a suspect in a criminal case is illegal, for some reason or other I cannot bring myself to care. :)
I also find it practical to kill him instead of giving him the pulprit of a trial.

Does that hurt my credential as pinko liberal?

[JihadJane]

So, you're answer is ...? You're assuming we could have extracted anything from him.

What makes you assume "we" couldn't?

What/who has made you believe that waterboarding is the only method capable of extracting intelligence from living people?



As Ziggurat noted above, the killing of Osama while in hiding was a double blow to Al Queda both in terms of operations and image.

Evidence? The US government is telling us otherwise, talking up the threat of more attacks and is busy looking for the "next bin Laden" in Yemen.

But, just out of curiosity, how do you feel about the targeted killing of Admiral Yamamoto in World War II?

Along with most of the civilized world, I don't support capital punishment, especially when it is done without due legal process.

How would you feel about the targeted assassination of George W Bush or Barack Obama, both of whom are responsible for the deaths of thousands of civilians?

Would you prefer their weighted bodies be dumped into the Atlantic or the Pacific Ocean or maybe Hudson Bay?

Concrete boots and bricks?

Yes, Osama went out like a coward, instead of in a blaze of glory, when he declined to pick up his weapons. This may not look important to us with our western mindset, but these are not the actions of a Muslim hero.

How do you know what the actions of a "Muslim hero" are? Your "blaze of glory" phrase suggests that you are confusing reality with a Cowboys and Indians movie. Geronimo?

How do you know he had any opportunity to pick up a weapon?

What's courageous about picking up a weapon?

"Naturally the common people don't want war... Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders... All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism."

~ Herman Goering

[CACTUSJACKmankin]

Invading a foreing country to assasinate a suspect in a criminal case is illegal, for some reason or other I cannot bring myself to care. :)
I also find it practical to kill him instead of giving him the pulprit of a trial.

Does that hurt my credential as pinko liberal?
Many of the same countries that are giving us heat for "illegally assassinating" OBL are the same ones that we are helping to also "illegally assassinate" Kaddaffi.

[Mister Earl]

I'm going to go out of my way to say that I don't consider waterboarding an effective means of interrogation. Or any other form of torture. Coercion, yes. Torture, no.

[JihadJane]

Invading a foreing country to assasinate a suspect in a criminal case is illegal, for some reason or other I cannot bring myself to care. :)
I also find it practical to kill him instead of giving him the pulprit of a trial.

Does that hurt my credential as pinko liberal?

No, pinko liberals often overlook the law in favor of debased political expediency.

Many of the same countries that are giving us heat for "illegally assassinating" OBL are the same ones that we are helping to also "illegally assassinate" Kaddaffi.


Which countries do you have in mind?

[Toke]

No, pinko liberals often overlook the law in favor of debased political expediency.


I wonder how much you overlook in order to bash the US? :rolleyes:

[JihadJane]

I wonder how much you overlook in order to bash the US? :rolleyes:

If in doubt, personalize....

What have I overlooked?

[000063]

What makes you assume "we" couldn't?

What/who has made you believe that waterboarding is the only method capable of extracting intelligence from living people?No such claim was made.

Along with most of the civilized world, I don't support capital punishment, especially when it is done without due legal process.This wasn't a police action or an execution, but a counter-terrorist action. It's war. Just like killing Yamamoto was.

How would you feel about the targeted assassination of George W Bush or Barack Obama, both of whom are responsible for the deaths of thousands of civilians? Straw Man. Being the President of a country with that whole "democracy" thing who orders people into a war is different from being a terrorist with a hate-on for America deliberately ordering a few people to murder in hot-blood a few dozen people, if the Towers hadn't collapsed.

How do you know what the actions of a "Muslim hero" are? Your "blaze of glory" phrase suggests that you are confusing reality with a Cowboys and Indians movie. Geronimo?No, it was sardonic, possibly sarcasm. He was being mocking.

"Naturally the common people don't want war... Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders... All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism."

~ Herman Goeringhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

[Undesired Walrus]

The fact that the administration is incompetent in explaining events doesn't mean the SEALs didn't know what they were doing. They did.

Incompetent? It's the fog of war Zig.

[aggle-rithm]

How would you feel about the targeted assassination of George W Bush or Barack Obama, both of whom are responsible for the deaths of thousands of civilians?


Just a few points:

1. I'm sure there are thousands of radical Muslims that would love to assassinate either of these men, but terrorists only go after "soft" targets...meaning defenseless civilians.

2. Neither Bush nor Obama has killed civilians as a result of going after "soft" targets. Civilian deaths have been regrettable collatoral damage while going after "hard" targets.

(Except for those civilians who have taken it upon themselves to take up arms and try to kill American troops....those civilians cannot really be considered "innocent", no matter how justified they believe their actions to be.)

In fact, it would be foolish to go after civilians in either Iraq or Afganistan, not only because of the media backlash back home, but because we are trying to win over the populace in both countries, and indiscriminate killing doesn't really serve that purpose.

[Marcus]

How do you know what the actions of a "Muslim hero" are? Your "blaze of glory" phrase suggests that you are confusing reality with a Cowboys and Indians movie. Geronimo?
Bin Laden often said in his speeches that he would go down in a hail of gunfire rather than surrender. This is consistent with the Islamic idea of an honorable death for a warrior, which would be with guns blazing rather than hiding behind women. No cowboys and indians involved, sorry to disappoint you.

How do you know he had any opportunity to pick up a weapon?

What's courageous about picking up a weapon?Although we haven't been given details of the operation, judging from the photos we have seen and what we do know about the location and positions of the participants, it is unlikely he didn't hear the commotion. He was prepared to flee at any time, judging from the money sewn into his jacket, and it's unlikely he wouldn't have his personal weapons in his bedroom. No, it isn't proof, given our lack of information, but from what we do know it looks like he didn't want to be a martyr after all, and even went so far as to put a woman between him and the approaching troops, a cowardly act, especially by Muslim standards.

Picking up his weapon would have been a courageous act because he would have known it would have resulted in his death.

[Toke]

If in doubt, personalize....

What have I overlooked?

How about OBL`s involvment in the 9/11 attacks?

[shuize]

Evidence? The US government is telling us otherwise, talking up the threat of more attacks ...


I stated that killing bin Laden constituted a blow to Al Queda's operation and image.

While one might argue that taking him alive would constitute a greater blow (incorrectly, I believe), you can't seriously believe that killing him did not constitute a significant blow such that you need to demand evidence of the fact.

That the government is warning of potential attacks does not mean the loss of their leader did not deal a significant blow.


Along with most of the civilized world, I don't support capital punishment, especially when it is done without due legal process.


Military action aimed at killing the enemy's command and control organization during wartime does not warrant due process.

Moreover, I seriously doubt you've ever given the Yamamoto mission any thought before now and your attempt to characterize that action as "capital punishment without due process" has nothing to do with the legality of that mission and everything to do with avoiding having the analogy extended against Osama bin Laden.

[Clayton Moore]

Do you not understand what got Osama started on this rampage temper tantrum?

Here, let me break it down for you.

Saudia Arabia is invaded by Iraq.

Saudia Arabia is offered assistance by bin Laden and the USA.

The USA is chosen to help defend them against Hussein.

bin Laden feels jaded that Americans were chosen over him to defend S.A.

And as opposed to going over to his corner and crying, then building a bridge and getting the **** over it, he gets his panties in a twist and goes on a rampage.



Now, what part of that do you support?

Where does corporate America come into play?

The bin Ladens kept getting invited over for tea!

[Clayton Moore]

Military action aimed at killing the enemy's command and control organization during wartime does not warrant due process.

Moreover, I seriously doubt you've ever given the Yamamoto mission any thought before now and your attempt to characterize that action as "capital punishment without due process" has nothing to do with the legality of that mission and everything to do with avoiding having the analogy extended against Osama bin Laden.

Our rule of thumb, innocent until proven guilty, is to be replaced by shoot first and lie about it as long as you can get away with it?

So now you ignore the reason we have thumbs in the first place?

[thaiboxerken]

Our rule of thumb, innocent until proven guilty, is to be replaced by shoot first and lie about it as long as you can get away with it?

So now you ignore the reason we have thumbs in the first place?

We don't generally read miranda rights to enemy soldiers on the battle field.

Osama was the head of an international organization that he declared, himself, too be at war with the USA.

[Raleigh Marsden]

The idea that bin laden was killed just the other day is laughable. If some kid said it and showed everyone those images of him supposedly watching tv and holding the remote with his right hand (even though he's left handed) and with ears and a nose which aren'e his, it would be seen as ridiculous, but because the hypnotist known as the mainstream media shows it, people believe it. He died years ago.

[thaiboxerken]

The conspiracy thread is in another section.

[Raleigh Marsden]

The conspiracy thread is in another section.

I'll bear that in mind.

[dafydd]

insomuch as i sympathize with anyone who struggles for freedom against american corporate tyranny, yes, his other issues notwithstanding.

That is not what he was doing.

[dafydd]

If in doubt, personalize....

What have I overlooked?

Bin Laden's aims and actions.

[dafydd]

What makes you assume "we" couldn't?

What/who has made you believe that waterboarding is the only method capable of extracting intelligence from living people?





Evidence? The US government is telling us otherwise, talking up the threat of more attacks and is busy looking for the "next bin Laden" in Yemen.



Along with most of the civilized world, I don't support capital punishment, especially when it is done without due legal process.

How would you feel about the targeted assassination of George W Bush or Barack Obama, both of whom are responsible for the deaths of thousands of civilians?

Would you prefer their weighted bodies be dumped into the Atlantic or the Pacific Ocean or maybe Hudson Bay?

Concrete boots and bricks?



How do you know what the actions of a "Muslim hero" are? Your "blaze of glory" phrase suggests that you are confusing reality with a Cowboys and Indians movie. Geronimo?

How do you know he had any opportunity to pick up a weapon?

What's courageous about picking up a weapon?

"Naturally the common people don't want war... Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders... All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism."

~ Herman Goering
Need any more straw? You must have used up your whole store.

[000063]

Our rule of thumb, innocent until proven guilty, is to be replaced by shoot first and lie about it as long as you can get away with it?

So now you ignore the reason we have thumbs in the first place?War. Not cops hauling a drunk guy into jail.

[shuize]

Our rule of thumb, innocent until proven guilty, is to be replaced by shoot first and lie about it as long as you can get away with it?


I'm not entirely sure what you mean by your statement, but if you're referring to the fact that initial reports indicated Osama fought back and later reports corrected this, I'm not particularly concerned. In the fog of war, early reports are often mistaken.

Moreover, as I've stated previously, I don't really care whether he was armed or not. I don't view this as a law enforcement mission. By launching attacks against our embassies, warships and civilians, Al Queda declared jihad against the United States and thus need not be afforded all the due process protections one might find in a civilian court. By serving as the leader of Al Queda and taking credit for the attacks, bin Laden essentially painted a bulls-eye on his face. In short, I don't mind that the military put two in the ring rather than try to capture him.

The Yamamoto case serves as a good example. In time of war, the enemy's command and control network is a legitimate target. Are you going to decry the lack of due process in that mission as well?

[dtugg]

Seriously. In a war you kill the enemy. As much as it is possibly for a state to be at war with a non state entity, the USA is at war with al Qaeda. Osama was the leader of that organization, thus shooting him in the face is perfectly legitimate. Don't want to have SEAL Team 6 fly onto your property in stealth helicopters, shoot you in the face, and dump your body in the ocean? Well, not being the leader of a terrorist organization at war with the USA would be a good start.

[Clayton Moore]

Seriously. In a war you kill the enemy. As much as it is possibly for a state to be at war with a non state entity, the USA is at war with al Qaeda. Osama was the leader of that organization, thus shooting him in the face is perfectly legitimate. Don't want to have SEAL Team 6 fly onto your property in stealth helicopters, shoot you in the face, and dump your body in the ocean? Well, not being the leader of a terrorist organization at war with the USA would be a good start.

Seriously, in a war you defeat the enemy. That's my rule of thumb.

[Resume]

Seriously, in a war you defeat the enemy. That's my rule of thumb.

How do you go about defeating the enemy in a war? Wave rhubarb at them? Fart in their general direction?

[thaiboxerken]

Seriously, in a war you defeat the enemy. That's my rule of thumb.

Killing or capturing them are two ways of doing this.

[triforcharity]

Iraq invaded Kuwait (mass killing muslims is ok when other muslims do it :rolleyes: ), making the Saudis very nervous.


Not a nitpick, I was wrong. Yes, it was Kuwait. My aoplogies....:o

[triforcharity]

What makes you assume "we" couldn't?


What makes you assume that "we" could? I mean, bin Laden most likely isn't exactly going to just spill his guts because we asked him nicely.


What/who has made you believe that waterboarding is the only method capable of extracting intelligence from living people?


It certainly has seemed to work in the past.


Evidence? The US government is telling us otherwise, talking up the threat of more attacks and is busy looking for the "next bin Laden" in Yemen.


Aparently you don't understand what Shuize said.



Along with most of the civilized world, I don't support capital punishment, especially when it is done without due legal process.


This wasn't capital punishment. This was a battle in a warzone, with a known war criminal, who would not have gone peacefully even if asked nicely.


How would you feel about the targeted assassination of George W Bush or Barack Obama, both of whom are responsible for the deaths of thousands of civilians?


Neither of them are war criminals, neither of them are part of a terrorist orginization, neither of them have active warrants for their capture in any known country. But, other than that.....


Would you prefer their weighted bodies be dumped into the Atlantic or the Pacific Ocean or maybe Hudson Bay?
Concrete boots and bricks?


But you see, the problem is that the US would claim both of their bodies, whereas, no country would claim the body of bin Laden. It would have been political suicide.



How do you know what the actions of a "Muslim hero" are? Your "blaze of glory" phrase suggests that you are confusing reality with a Cowboys and Indians movie. Geronimo?


No, what he said makes perfect sense to people who don't love Hitler, A.Q, et al.



How do you know he had any opportunity to pick up a weapon?


How do you know he DIDN'T?


What's courageous about picking up a weapon?


Nothing. It's pulling the trigger quickly and effectivly, before the other one does.



"Naturally the common people don't want war... Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders... All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism."

~ Herman Goering

Imagine that, you quote a known war criminal and murderer to try to support your cause. Awesome.

Slightly off topic, but why do you love Nazis so much, and hate Americans?

[Clayton Moore]

Originally Posted by JihadJane View Post
"Naturally the common people don't want war... Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders... All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism."

~ Herman Goering




Imagine that, you quote a known war criminal and murderer to try to support your cause. Awesome.

Slightly off topic, but why do you love Nazis so much, and hate Americans?

You imagine in 5D. That's 2 extra.
__________________

[Noztradamus]

~~~~~
The fact that the administration is incompetent in explaining events doesn't mean the SEALs didn't know what they were doing. They did.

I think that's an American thing, like wanting to go on Jerry Springer for a few seconds of fame.

The Brits know how to do this stuff
A Ministry of Defence spokesman said: "We do not comment on Special Forces operations"

[Ziggurat]

Evidence? The US government is telling us otherwise, talking up the threat of more attacks and is busy looking for the "next bin Laden" in Yemen.

That isn't "telling us otherwise". What they're saying is that al Qaeda might try to increase the tempo of their attacks to retaliate against us. That could change the temporal profile of the threat, but it doesn't change the overall magnitude of the threat at all. And of course they're looking for whoever is next in line. That's what you do when you're trying to destroy an organization.

Along with most of the civilized world, I don't support capital punishment, especially when it is done without due legal process.

This wasn't capital punishment. This was a military operation. One does not need to hold a trial every time one engages with the enemy.

How would you feel about the targeted assassination of George W Bush or Barack Obama, both of whom are responsible for the deaths of thousands of civilians?

If carried out by another nation, I would consider that an act of war.

Congratulations: you've just discovered that we're at war with al Qaeda. Guess who declared that war? Oh, that's right: the guy we just killed.

Would you prefer their weighted bodies be dumped into the Atlantic or the Pacific Ocean or maybe Hudson Bay?

The disposal of a corpse after the fact is really the least of my concerns.

How do you know what the actions of a "Muslim hero" are? Your "blaze of glory" phrase suggests that you are confusing reality with a Cowboys and Indians movie. Geronimo?

I know what the actions of a "Muslim hero" are because I can see what it is that they glorify. They glorify death in combat. They don't glorify getting shot in your bedroom by an enemy you never saw coming.

How do you know he had any opportunity to pick up a weapon?

I don't. Neither did the SEAL team. That's rather the whole point.

What's courageous about picking up a weapon?

Since he loved posing with hsi gun so much, why don't you ask bin Laden?

Oh, that's right: you can't. So sad.

"Naturally the common people don't want war... Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders... All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism."

~ Herman Goering

"My good friends, this is the second time there has come back from Germany to Downing Street peace with honour. I believe it is peace for our time. We thank you from the bottom of our hearts. Now I recommend you go home, and sleep quietly in your beds."
- Neville Chamberlain

You talk peace, Jihad Jane, but your words are hollow.

[aggle-rithm]

Seriously, in a war you defeat the enemy. That's my rule of thumb.

Um...only if you win.

[Toontown]

Seriously. In a war you kill the enemy. As much as it is possibly for a state to be at war with a non state entity, the USA is at war with al Qaeda. Osama was the leader of that organization, thus shooting him in the face is perfectly legitimate. Don't want to have SEAL Team 6 fly onto your property in stealth helicopters, shoot you in the face, and dump your body in the ocean? Well, not being the leader of a terrorist organization at war with the USA would be a good start.

:wwt

Dream crusher.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked..."

~ Herman Goering

No one told Americans they were under attack. America actually was attacked.

Swear to god, it was in all the papers...

[Belz...]

That is not what you stated. You said it was your understanding, then you said your understanding was based on the thread.

Yes. Isn't that what I said ?

All I said was the thread contained no actual evidence, only supposition.

Then my understanding was based on supposition. Either way your first comment here was unwarranted.

Why did what I said bother you?

Somehow it seems to be a continuing theme with you :p

Why didn't you just clarify that you did mean supposition and never meant to imply "understanding" was based on actual evidence?

I did at least twice and you only now understood it, while trying to say the opposite of what I had said which agreed with you.

[beachnut]

The idea that bin laden was killed just the other day is laughable. If some kid said it and showed everyone those images of him supposedly watching tv and holding the remote with his right hand (even though he's left handed) and with ears and a nose which aren'e his, it would be seen as ridiculous, but because the hypnotist known as the mainstream media shows it, people believe it. He died years ago.
Why would an Islamic man use his right hand or left. They eat with their right hand. Which hand do pilots use to fly with? In which aircraft? How does your opinion match up to DNA data from a dead guy? Did you google the UBL was dead years ago? Got the date? Sources? You left out years of research.

Who can use a remote with either hand? We killed UBL the other day, and you are making up left right hand junk, and more nonsense.

Got some proof to go with your fantasy claim?

[Clayton Moore]

why would an islamic man use his right hand or left. They eat with their right hand. Which hand do pilots use to fly with? In which aircraft? how does your opinion match up to dna data from a dead guy? did you google the ubl was dead years ago? Got the date? Sources? You left out years of research.

Who can use a remote with either hand? We killed ubl the other day, and you are making up left right hand junk, and more nonsense.

Got some proof to go with your fantasy claim?

dna? Smh

[Mister Earl]

In Iraq at least, holding anything with your left hand was taboo. They don't use toilet paper over there. They use a bottle of water and their left hand. It doesn't matter if you're right or left handed. Your preference doesn't factor in. The left hand is the "unclean" hand.

Not sure if that's the same rule in Saudi Arabia.

[elgarak]

In Iraq at least, holding anything with your left hand was taboo. They don't use toilet paper over there. They use a bottle of water and their left hand. It doesn't matter if you're right or left handed. Your preference doesn't factor in. The left hand is the "unclean" hand.

Not sure if that's the same rule in Saudi Arabia.

We know OBL was left-handed, as he was filmed shooting an AK-47 left-handed.

The taboo is certainly there, so he may have been trained to be ambidextrous (doing all the right things with the right hand, and doing anything else with the left).

Be this as it may, I don't think that using a TV remote is a good indicator for handedness. I can, and do regularly for convenience, easily use a remote with both hands, being right-handed.

[Mister Earl]

I'm pretty sure he was left handed as well, but I'm going to go the nitpick route for a moment. I've shot left-handed as well, despite being right-hand dominant. In the Marines at least (where I learned to shoot), you were taught not to shoot your rifle dependent on dominant hand, but rather dominant eye. They don't always sync up like you'd think. We had one guy who was left handed shooting left handed. Had absolutely horrible grouping. Finally his range coach convinced him to try it the other way. He ended up shooting low expert almost immediately.

[applecorped]

How do you go about defeating the enemy in a war? Wave rhubarb at them? Fart in their general direction?

I hear your father smelt of elderberries.

[epepke]

I'm pretty sure he was left handed as well, but I'm going to go the nitpick route for a moment. I've shot left-handed as well, despite being right-hand dominant. In the Marines at least (where I learned to shoot), you were taught not to shoot your rifle dependent on dominant hand, but rather dominant eye. They don't always sync up like you'd think. We had one guy who was left handed shooting left handed. Had absolutely horrible grouping. Finally his range coach convinced him to try it the other way. He ended up shooting low expert almost immediately.

Quite true. I'm right-handed, but I shoot rifle left-handed, because my left eye is better. Pistol I shoot right-handed, but I line up with my left eye. There's not much reason to use the dominant hand on the trigger of a rifle, and it might even be better to have the dominant hand hold the stock, because that's where you get aiming. With pistol, of course, keeping the angle of the pistol correct is more important than just about anything else, so you want the dominant hand involved.

[Noztradamus]

The idea that bin laden was killed just the other day is laughable. If some kid said it and showed everyone those images of him supposedly watching tv and holding the remote with his right hand (even though he's left handed)


I'm right handed and operate the TV remote with my left hand.

[Howie Felterbush]

I'm right handed and operate the TV remote with my left hand.

Especially when watching porn.

[Sunstealer]

No one told Americans they were under attack. America actually was attacked.

Swear to god, it was in all the papers...Don't forget JJ is a truther. ;)

[Marcus]

Don't forget JJ is a truther. ;)
Somehow I'm not surprised.

[aggle-rithm]

We know OBL was left-handed, as he was filmed shooting an AK-47 left-handed.

The taboo is certainly there, so he may have been trained to be ambidextrous (doing all the right things with the right hand, and doing anything else with the left).

Be this as it may, I don't think that using a TV remote is a good indicator for handedness. I can, and do regularly for convenience, easily use a remote with both hands, being right-handed.

My father was left-handed and grew up in an age when left-handed children were forced to learn to write with their right hand.

For his entire life, his handwriting looked like that of a second-grader.

[aggle-rithm]

In the Marines at least (where I learned to shoot), you were taught not to shoot your rifle dependent on dominant hand, but rather dominant eye. They don't always sync up like you'd think.

NITPICK. You don't have a dominant eye, you have a dominant field of vision.

The left half of both eyes goes to your right brain, the right half of both eyes goes to your left brain.

[WildCat]

i can understand his hatred for american exploitation and control in the middle east, and i can have some sympathy for his initial motivations, which were:

ending American military presence in the Middle East and the Arabian Peninsula,[1][2] overthrowing Arab regimes he considers corrupt and insufficiently religious,[1][2] ending American support for Israel,[3][4] and returning East Timor and Kashmir to Muslim rule.[5]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_terrorism

that is the limit of my stated "some sympathy".
So you have sympathy for his belief that Saudi Arabia, for example (where the religious police once locked girls inside a burning school because they weren't properly covered from head to toe to come out in public), is not religious enough?

And other regions should be placed under this type of "Muslim rule"? :boggled:

[WildCat]

insomuch as i sympathize with anyone who struggles for freedom against american corporate tyranny, yes, his other issues notwithstanding.
OBL's motives had nothing at all to do with "american corporate tyranny". He is not some leftist.

[zooterkin]

NITPICK. You don't have a dominant eye, you have a dominant field of vision.
You may be right in general, but some people, me, for example, do have a dominant eye. The vision in my left eye is, or at least before the ravages of age was, nearly perfect, while my right eye is long sighted and lazy and the image is generally slightly blurred. When I did rifle shooting, I would shoot left-handed in order to use my left eye.

The left half of both eyes goes to your right brain, the right half of both eyes goes to your left brain.

I sadly know this to be true; my other half's mother has lost some or all of the left field of vision following a brain bleed.

[coalesce]

I hear your father smelt of elderberries.

What a strange person...

Michael

[Number Six]

Just out of curiosity, now that Al Qaeda has admitted that bin Laden is dead, has anyone heard what the current position is of people that said the whole thing was faked and bin Laden was still alive?

[nathan]

Just out of curiosity, now that Al Qaeda has admitted that bin Laden is dead, has anyone heard what the current position is of people that said the whole thing was faked and bin Laden was still alive?

... or so the media claims

[Number Six]

... or so the media claims

Yes, good point. Unless you hear it straight from the lips of al-Zawahari, you're hearing it via some media source, which of course do nothing but lie to we sheeple.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Don't forget JJ is a truther. ;)

I know. Nazi quotes are a favorite fallback of JJ and the rest of the "jews-did-WTC" crowd.

I was just reminding her that the rest of us live in the real world.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Especially when watching porn.

:D

[Skeptic Ginger]

NITPICK. You don't have a dominant eye, you have a dominant field of vision.

The left half of both eyes goes to your right brain, the right half of both eyes goes to your left brain.
That's an interesting anatomy reminder, but the conclusion seems backward to me. I have one eye that is considerably more dominant than the other. It's definitely my eye that matters since one eye has better vision altogether than the other.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Yes, good point. Unless you hear it straight from the lips of al-Zawahari, you're hearing it via some media source, which of course do nothing but lie to we sheeple.

I like the rumor al-Zawahari tipped off the US in order to get rid of OBL and take over the lead position. Do you suppose if we push that story al-Zawahari will be assassinated by an OBL fan?

[thaiboxerken]

OBL's motives had nothing at all to do with "american corporate tyranny". He is not some leftist.

I agree. He was a Conservative.:D

[John Jones]

Our rule of thumb, innocent until proven guilty, is to be replaced by shoot first and lie about it as long as you can get away with it?




Whose war-time rule of thumb is that?

[John Jones]

The idea that bin laden was killed just the other day is laughable. If some kid said it and showed everyone those images of him supposedly watching tv and holding the remote with his right hand (even though he's left handed) and with ears and a nose which aren'e his, it would be seen as ridiculous, but because the hypnotist known as the mainstream media shows it, people believe it. He died years ago.

Logical Fallacy: Appeal to Ridicule/ The Horse Laugh Fallacy.

Please do your homework before you come to class. :D

[John Jones]

Seriously, in a war you defeat the enemy. That's my rule of thumb.

Bin Laden is most seriously defeated.

Maybe you think he wasn't the enemy of the USA?

[John Jones]

Not a nitpick, I was wrong. Yes, it was Kuwait. My aoplogies....:o


Wait. It was a long time ago. Didn't Iraq actually launch an attack across the border into Saudi Arabia in the early days of Desert Shield, and was repelled?

[shuize]

Wait. It was a long time ago. Didn't Iraq actually launch an attack across the border into Saudi Arabia in the early days of Desert Shield, and was repelled?


Yes, they did. In fact, I remember a statement by Gen. Colin Powell not long after the war in which he commented on Iraq's attack into Saudi Arabia, the gist of which was, "That's when we realized they sucked at organizing anything above the battalion level."

[dtugg]

Bin Laden is most seriously defeated.

Maybe you think he wasn't the enemy of the USA?

He is a truther and an anti-semite. I am sure he thinks OBL was set up by the joooooos.

[triforcharity]

I like the rumor al-Zawahari tipped off the US in order to get rid of OBL and take over the lead position. Do you suppose if we push that story al-Zawahari will be assassinated by an OBL fan?

That might actually WORK!! Simple, but effective! I like the way you think S.G! (Are you a redhead by chance?)

Anyway, I am already on the phone with my handler......er......I mean, the CIA station chief........

[Clayton Moore]

He is a truther and an anti-semite. I am sure he thinks OBL was set up by the joooooos.

What does that make you? Other than a name caller?

[bikerdruid]

I agree. He was a Conservative.:D

apparently, he was a narrow-minded hater.
sounds like most conservatives to me.