Theory on reality

[Atarin]

Note: If you don't want to read all of this, just skip to the bottom where I have placed a conclusion that I don't hold as fact but more as an idea that I hope is true thus the indepth exploration.


Anyway... Thought you guys might like a new topic... I haven't seen anything really like this on the forum yet, but I'm new, so forgive me if there is...

After years of debate and analysis, I have come across thousands of theories of what reality is...

I have tried to be an "A-Theist" (as you call them) for a year or so, but slowly my mind was persuaded to see otherwise.

______________________________________________
First of all, has anyone ever had the sensation of deja vu?

I have had it many times and most are because I had dreamt what was going to happen earlier that morning.

This poses an interesting question,

"If it hasn't already happened, then how did my subconscious know it would?"

Franko believes it is all down to fate and all is controlled by the Goddess thus even if it hadn't happened yet, it was bound to due to the Goddess planning it... why did I get this window to see into the future for a brief moment? Don't know, it's not like it achieved anything really? Unless it was there to show me that the future can be predicted or that the Goddess is there?

The A-Theist would say... I'm not sure, what would an A-Theist say? How do you explain me just happening to know which friends would show up at work at that time and their exact positions in the store, not to mention my location and what I was about to say and why- before the Deja Vu effect took me? (I actually realised the sensation as I was about to open my mouth and speak, and then when I did speak, I said exactly what I had said earlier in the dream, quite an amazing experience)

The book series "Conversations with God" by Neale Donald Walsch came up with an idea that the universe is like a giant CDROM - all the information is there, you just have to access it

And although I'm not too much of a fan of his writing, this actually is quite plausible...

My idea/theory that I am liking and wanting to explore most these days is - Time is a perceived sequence of events.

Meaning, if the universe is indeed like a giant CDROM with all the information there / all possible outcomes thought of etc, then we could in fact be a giant network of souls interacting and reacting with one another through the physical world, plotting our path through the CDROM with a sequence of moments, thus seeing "Time"

This gives us free will, and karma / cause and effect (more explanation on the karma thing later)

But how does this explain Deja Vu? Perhaps our higher self (if there is one) or the "soul" as we may want to continue to call it plans life in stages... you will be hit with a major choice here and there and that will allow you to travel down a certain path and see certain things, hence I was able to know exact positions of my friends etc (I had made a certain choice and was going down that road)

Why did I dream it? Not sure, is it possible for things to leak? Was it there simply to allow me to see a new aspect of reality to keep me thinking/guessing/analysing/debating thus expanding my spiritual/mental level? Who knows... but it also poses the question "does everything have to have a meaning?"


Is there a God? Probably... what is God/who is God/why does God not do this / Why does God do that? - no strong ideas as yet, therefore I am leaving it open... although I am thinking life is like a game in a way - or more so a movie, the souls come into it simply because there is nothing better to do and they may as well... or they want to see it, either way, just like a movie (some people enjoy being frightened, so they go see horror... others like to laugh, so they see comedy... the theory can be related easily to the whole "Souls come into this world for experience" idea)

Can anyone give me a real purpose to life? I say in the end nothing matters. Exist or don't exist, no real care factor... most people feel depressed by this, but I say it's more of a gift - with no real set meaning to life, you are able to create your own... anyway that's another topic...

In conclusion to the "Why God..." questions, the best I can come up with at the moment is because -
That's just the way the game/the movie goes/reality is played

(Not sure what God is as such... maybe like the force in star wars or something? I dreamt once that "God is like oxygen"... what that means exactly I have no idea, Christians tell me the good old "apologetic" thing (that's what you guys were talking about in another thread right?) - "Can you see the air? God is there!" ... and then I say "so how did you manage to get that white jacket with straps off anyway?"

Why is there so much bad stuff in the world? Souls know only experience, good and bad are perceptions... so that question can be answered with this theory (in my opinion).

Why can't we break this reality? Because there are billions of blocks on our minds to keep us in it, thus allowing us to experience all at the highest level we can at the time (which is what it would be all about I guess?)

An interesting theory to go along with this one is - we don't actually learn anything, we simply remove blocks on knowledge... and over time, we regain those blocks as we do not require what they are blocking anymore in our life...

_______________________________________________
What evidence do I have of any of this? Nothing solid as such, I'm basically just trying to piece together everything from the clues I have been given during my day-to-day life...

So, in conclusion for this first post,
'Theory on reality"

Ultimately we are all part of the one essence that is God. On a lower level we become individual souls. Many levels down after a lot of planning, we enter the physical realm and see the movie that is who we are now for a purpose quite similar to the reason we go see a movie, and time is no more than our perception of a sequence of events taking place.


Hope you guys enjoyed the read, I personally love to elaborate and delve into these sorts of things, so please don't hesitate to reply with your theories!

Regards,
Atarin Virtuar

[arcticpenguin]

Originally posted by Atarin
[B]
First of all, has anyone ever had the sensation of deja vu?

Just because you "had the sensation" does not mean that those events had actually occured before. "The sensation" is due to the state of your brain.

I enjoyed your post. Hard to comment meaningfully on what appears to be a good deal of speculation...

I agree with ap here; I've had strong feelings of deja vu, usually in conversational settings... but I look for less-than-supernatural explanations for such events, and think deja vu is simply a 'feeling' of reality (feel like I've heard this before) not actual reality (I have heard this before)...

Life is full of experiences which move us deeply, and we often can't make sense of them, and for many of us smacks of the supernatural... I've given such explanations a go in the past, yet always come around to regard them as the easy way out. IMO the answers are always more mundane... electrochemical brain flatulance. I'm an epileptic, and during the onset of a seizure there are many experiences/ hallucinations that seem vividly real... but I know they're not...

welcome to the forum! :)

[BillyTK]

Deja vu is a pretty interesting phenomena in itself without even having to introduce divinity into it! There's no single explanation for it 'cos there's such a wide variety of causes.

My favourite explanation involves the two-step theory of memory--basically that sensory stimuli go into short-term memory where somehow a decision is taken whether to pass that stimuli onto long-term memory for storage or whether to dump it.

So the theory goes, sometimes a stimuli is passed to the long-term store even while the short-term store is deciding what to do with it; then if the short-term decides to pass it to the long-term store as well, it gets "matched" with the existing "entry" for it, and even though the the time difference between the two "entries" is in the order of milliseconds, it's enough to cause the feeling of deja vu.

On the other hand, critics say the two-stage memory model is unprovable guff, and we might as well say God puts these things in our heads anyway ;)

[Atarin]

arcticpenguin

well, it was more than just a sensation, perhaps my wording wasn't correct... I actually knew what was going to happen next and it lasted about 15 seconds of me knowing exactly how things would react/act etc... otherwise I wouldn't have looked over it anymore... anyway, bearing this in mind, what would you say now?

Estimated Prophet

I don't actually go with the super natural answer simply because I believe there to be a logical explanation to everything... whether we understand it in this moment or not - it can be explained... although once we reach the higher levels of existence it gets a little more complicated - but that's because reality as we know it might in fact be an illusion as such - hence the "life is a movie" theory

Anyway, as you said, it's pretty much all just speculation... but in order to advance, someone has to take on the "this is how it is" side of the debate, otherwise we'll conclude that we just don't know!

Thanks for the welcome :)


BillyTK

Intruiging theories... pity there is no proof when dealing with these issues... oh well, atleast we get to expand our minds while taking the journey of constant search

Thanks for replying

My brother has an interesting story to tell...

He's a storm chaser, and everytime there is going to be a storm that day, he wakes up with a name in his head... just a simple names like "Lisa" and "Nathan"

He hasn't been wrong yet, but the weather service we have has been... quite odd, I still haven't been able to win the debate taking the athiest point of view...

Theories that go with this are:
1. Time is not real - he chooses to go storm chasing and has installed a program in his life to let him know when there will be storms, thus being able to plan for them.

2. He chooses to go storm chasing and has installed a program in his subconscious to allow him etc etc and his subconscious simply picks up on the atmosphere level

3. His spirit guides know his desires and send him the name through the dreams for the reasons stated above.

I can't explain it so far... just too "out of this world" so to speak for the moment, although there probably is a logical explanation in the end...

Perhaps you guys have some ideas?



P.S I probably haven't explained the entire story, but just query it and I'll ask him when I can...

And

I was actually basing the previous speculation on many other things I neglected to mention due to lack of time and not wanting to waste yours with thousands of words.

Thanks again
Regards
Atarin Virtuar

[BillyTK]

Hi Atarin,

It's interesting that we can observe the areas of the brain involved with different mental activity (http://www.nimh.nih.gov/events/prwmem.htm), but there's a bit of a conceptaul gap between the physical activity adn the mental activity.

Also of interest is Oliver Sach'sThe Man Who Mistook His wife For A Hat (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0330294911/qid=1047053058/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_2_1/026-3179807-1178861), which contains the story of a man who lost his short-term memory as a result of a neurological condition.

Interesting story about your brother--my wife gets terrible headaches when storms are approaching (normally 4-6 hours in advance); maybe there's a similar physiological cue for your brother, and he's so experienced with it he can pre-consciously name the coming storm?

[Franko]

Atarin Virtuar:

First of all, has anyone ever had the sensation of deja vu?

That’s when they change something in the Matrix … right? ;)

I have had it many times and most are because I had dreamt what was going to happen earlier that morning.

This poses an interesting question,

"If it hasn't already happened, then how did my subconscious know it would?"

If Time travel were possible … I wonder what Determinism would really mean … ?

Franko believes it is all down to fate and all is controlled by the Goddess thus even if it hadn't happened yet, it was bound to due to the Goddess planning it... why did I get this window to see into the future for a brief moment? Don't know, it's not like it achieved anything really? Unless it was there to show me that the future can be predicted or that the Goddess is there?

The Goddess is Omniscient – Her perception (including Her ability to anticipate) is superior to that of any other entity. But intrinsically you are no different then She is, or put another way, you may be the one who teaches your children to play checkers, but that doesn’t mean that they never jump one of your pieces.

The A-Theist would say... I'm not sure, what would an A-Theist say? How do you explain me just happening to know which friends would show up at work at that time and their exact positions in the store, not to mention my location and what I was about to say and why- before the Deja Vu effect took me? (I actually realised the sensation as I was about to open my mouth and speak, and then when I did speak, I said exactly what I had said earlier in the dream, quite an amazing experience)

My question is … suppose you perceived how events were to unfold, but when the realtime came (the decision junction) what if you decided that you didn’t want things to happen the way they were suppose to … ? Maybe you might want them to happen a little differently … better.

The book series "Conversations with God" by Neale Donald Walsch came up with an idea that the universe is like a giant CDROM - all the information is there, you just have to access it

And although I'm not too much of a fan of his writing, this actually is quite plausible...

Sounds like Fatalism to me.

My idea/theory that I am liking and wanting to explore most these days is - Time is a perceived sequence of events.

I would agree.

Meaning, if the universe is indeed like a giant CDROM with all the information there / all possible outcomes thought of etc, then we could in fact be a giant network of souls interacting and reacting with one another through the physical world, plotting our path through the CDROM with a sequence of moments, thus seeing "Time"

You got it.

Each individual conscious entity is a real particle in the real universe (the Omniverse). The LD call these “conscious particles” Gravitons – a housing for your “Soul” in a manner of speaking. In the True reality Gravitons are ALL that exists, there is no “matter” in the Omniverse – or more accurately the Gravitons ARE the “matter” in the Omniverse, and essentially a Graviton is simply a manifestation of Time.

All of your experiences, all of the “events” in your existence are caused by an interaction (an Entanglement) with another Graviton. When two Gravitons interact they exchange Energy in the form of memes. This entanglement creates a point in SpaceTime (a decision junction).

This Universe that we find ourselves in is actually a joint entanglement we share with a common Graviton – The Logical Goddess (LG). She provides us with a common frame of reference, and a constant steady stream of information. Because the information She transmits is soo much more potent that that you receive from any other Graviton, you mind begins to give Her transmissions a special significance. You begin to perceive Her energy not as thoughts or words, or ideas, but as solid “matter” – it is “real”.

Imagine a game of Dungeons and Dragons, but imagine that all of the players speak different languages and are therefore unable to communicate directly with each other. But suppose that the Dungeon master (the DM, or referee) speaks all languages fluently. The DM runs the game. She creates the rules and the scenarios, she gives the players a common frame of reference -- she tells people where they are and where everything else is, and since all of this information comes from One Source (the DM (God)) it is the same for all observers (for all the characters in the game). It is Objective information, it is “Logical” (the same for all minds).

This gives us free will, and karma / cause and effect (more explanation on the karma thing later)

I agree with you on Karma, but it doesn’t give us “free will”. “free will” is as meaningless as a Flat motionless Earth. What you have is much different (and much more interesting) than mere “free will”.

But how does this explain Deja Vu? Perhaps our higher self (if there is one) or the "soul" as we may want to continue to call it plans life in stages... you will be hit with a major choice here and there and that will allow you to travel down a certain path and see certain things, hence I was able to know exact positions of my friends etc (I had made a certain choice and was going down that road)

Your Soul is a shard of what was once an Omnipotent Solipsist Entity. The LD call this entity the Progenitor Solipsist. After an Eternity of isolation, he was Infinity self-aware … but he had no idea what it would be like to experience individuality … so his Omniscience ended when Individuality began.

Now we share his Omniscience, and the one of us that got the largest share … is the one of us most evolved … the Logical Goddess.

Why did I dream it? Not sure, is it possible for things to leak? Was it there simply to allow me to see a new aspect of reality to keep me thinking/guessing/analysing/debating thus expanding my spiritual/mental level? Who knows... but it also poses the question "does everything have to have a meaning?"

Depends on how you define “meaning”, but if you want my short answer … I’d say Yes!

Like I said, your Soul is a shard of an Omniscient entity. In a way you are still Him. But now, you do know what it is to experience Individuality, and when you can combine your Individuality with your partial Omniscience (Fatalism) you can see what the future holds in store for you.

… and an entity which can perceive the future has the power to change the future.

Is there a God? Probably... what is God/who is God/why does God not do this / Why does God do that? - no strong ideas as yet, therefore I am leaving it open... although I am thinking life is like a game in a way - or more so a movie, the souls come into it simply because there is nothing better to do and they may as well... or they want to see it, either way, just like a movie (some people enjoy being frightened, so they go see horror... others like to laugh, so they see comedy... the theory can be related easily to the whole "Souls come into this world for experience" idea)

When you begin to think about it, I think it is a little more meaningful than you have described it, but essentially you have the right idea.

Consciousness is a manifestation of Time, and Time has ALWAYS existed. If you want to sit around and watch paint dry or grass growing for all Eternity, or if you want to watch nothing at all – knock yourself out.

Just don’t get in my way, my family’s way, or my friends way, because we can think of a lot more interesting things to do than that … and we think of even more interesting things all the Time!

Can anyone give me a real purpose to life? I say in the end nothing matters. Exist or don't exist, no real care factor... most people feel depressed by this, but I say it's more of a gift - with no real set meaning to life, you are able to create your own... anyway that's another topic...

In this paragraph you have beautifully summarized why one person is an A-Theist, while You are not.

… and if it makes you any happier … there is a purpose to it all, a mystery, a riddle …

In conclusion to the "Why God..." questions, the best I can come up with at the moment is because -
That's just the way the game/the movie goes/reality is played

(Not sure what God is as such... maybe like the force in star wars or something? I dreamt once that "God is like oxygen"... what that means exactly I have no idea, Christians tell me the good old "apologetic" thing (that's what you guys were talking about in another thread right?) - "Can you see the air? God is there!" ... and then I say "so how did you manage to get that white jacket with straps off anyway?"

The main difference between You and I and the LG, is that You and I don’t have Vaginas, and She doesn’t have a Penis.

Why is there so much bad stuff in the world? Souls know only experience, good and bad are perceptions... so that question can be answered with this theory (in my opinion).

This Universe is like the foyer in the Palace of my Goddess. She lets you in the door, she’s checking you out. If She thinks you are okay – you’re not a nutcase – she’ll invite you into the rest of her Mansion. But if you look like riftraft you will be shown to the door, and told not to return.

A-Theist whine about Evil, they say it disproves the existence of God. But God has to weed the Evil Gravitons out from the Good Ones, and that is exactly what is happening now. You don’t get the kind of nonsense in the Metaverse (Heaven) that you get down here, because only “decent” Gravitons make it to the Metaverse.

In other words, there are no A-Theists in Heaven (the Metaverse).

Why can't we break this reality? Because there are billions of blocks on our minds to keep us in it, thus allowing us to experience all at the highest level we can at the time (which is what it would be all about I guess?)

Yep, but when you sleep and when you are dead .. things are different.

An interesting theory to go along with this one is - we don't actually learn anything, we simply remove blocks on knowledge... and over time, we regain those blocks as we do not require what they are blocking anymore in our life...

We do actually learn (grow, expand, evolve), but not in exactly the way that most people probably think. Your consciousness (your Graviton) is like a fractal. It consist of Two parts, your Algorithm (your Soul, the Velocity of your particle), and your Database (your Graviton, the fractal image itself, the Mass of your particle). Everything you learn is part of a hierarchy. Two premises make a conclusion (up one level), and two conclusion become premises which in turn make a new higher level conclusion. The height of your “pyramid” (pyramid = hierarchy) is your Velocity, the width of your pyramid is your Mass.

Altarin:
What evidence do I have of any of this? Nothing solid as such, I'm basically just trying to piece together everything from the clues I have been given during my day-to-day life...

So, in conclusion for this first post,
'Theory on reality"

Ultimately we are all part of the one essence that is God. On a lower level we become individual souls. Many levels down after a lot of planning, we enter the physical realm and see the movie that is who we are now for a purpose quite similar to the reason we go see a movie, and time is no more than our perception of a sequence of events taking place.

Hope you guys enjoyed the read, I personally love to elaborate and delve into these sorts of things, so please don't hesitate to reply with your theories!

The theory you have just enumerated is Far, FAR more parsimonious, consistent, and logical than A-Theism can EVER hope to be. What’s more, it conforms to empirical observation far better than A-Theism/Materialism/Secular Humanism. It pushes the threshold of our understanding back beyond the “Big Bang” creation myth, it explains morality, individuality, consciousness, reality, perception, entanglement, Quantum mechanics, Gravity, thermodynamics, and neatly unifies all of physics (the physical world) into a consistent non-dogmatic philosophy.

If you are going to believe in a “God”, then there is no better God to believe in than one that grants Skepticism, Science, Individuality, and Logic a moral mandate, and holds the pure Truth as Her Ultimate Ideal.

[BillyTK]

Hi Franko,

I asked you a question about the LD Goddess in the QM thread, but you've answered here (how omniscient of you ;) ). But I've got further questions to ask, I'm afraid, the main one being:
The Goddess is Omniscient – Her perception (including Her ability to anticipate) is superior to that of any other entity
But if the Goddess is omniscient and the Universe deterministic, why does she need to anticipate; surely she just knows?

[Franko]

But if the Goddess is omniscient and the Universe deterministic, why does she need to anticipate; surely she just knows?

What makes you believe that She knows what you will say or do next any more than I do?

When someone tells me they are an "A-Theist" I may "Know" that they are a "free will" believer (in some form). I may know a lot of the exact arguments they will try using. I may even know some of the exact things they are going to say.

But not everything, I'd have to be Truly Omniscient (all-knowing) to know everything in advance, and not even my Goddess is Omniscient in that sense of the word. That kind of Omniscience ceased to exist with the Dawn of Individuality.

[Tricky]

If you want a little help, Atarin, in learning about Logical Deism, you can click this link to connect to The List (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=370572&highlight=wonderful+parsimoneous#post370572), a collection that I have been laboriously compiling of the wisdom of LD. Once upon a time, Franko approved of the list, and even sent corrections. Then he realized that it was harmful to his cause to have so many of the things he has said gathered in one place, and now each time I post it, he responds with a cut-and-paste insult.

I understand, of course. It looks bad when you see that he has at various times said that gravitons are composed of gravity, time, memes, souls, fractals, algorithms, fragments of The Progenitor Solipsist and Goddess knows what else. Or that velocity is charge and souls and the height of your pyramid...

So you can see, in reality, this "parsimoneous religion" is anything but. It is a tangled web of contradictory statements, technobabble and intense hatred.

Okay, Franko. I await your brilliant riposte.

[Franko]

Tricky,

To be honest I've NEVER read you list. I have never endorsed it. And I don't find you to be a very intelligent or intellectually honest person.

Despite all your whining about Me and Logical Deism you seem utterly unable to cite a SPECIFIC POINT that you disagree with, and a SPECIFIC REASON for disagreeing.

I think that it has more to do with the fact that you are a Lifelong A-Theist (30+ years) with a superiority complex, and a bad case of Religious Fanaticism.

[Tricky]

Originally posted by Franko
Tricky,
To be honest I've NEVER read you list. I have never endorsed it. And I don't find you to be a very intelligent or intellectually honest person.
You pontificate on honesty, when it is such a simple task to show you (and everyone) this post (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=290098&highlight=logical+goddess+omnipotent#post290098) Where you most certainly did read, comment on and mostly endorse my list.

Of course, now I am making all the entries into links so you and others can see that I am not lying about what you say. You have dishonestly attributed things to me for which you do not provide links,because it would be impossible to do so.

So careful with the stones, Mr. Honesty. You may shatter your glass house.
*****
On a separate note though, I am pleased that your "brilliant riposte" was at least not a cut-and-paste job. Keep it up!

[Rosetta Stone]

Tricky, I owe you some comments as well, as I promised a couple weeks back, but the more I delve into this amazing hotchpotch of - well, whatever it is - the more I think "Catholicism's Greatest Heresies".

We need a priest.

Anyone of these beliefs would likely get you a slow roasting back in the middle ages, and the combination of all of them together would give all the Popes a collective heart attack.

You should probably get yourself an exorcism just for having typed them up.

"Unclean! Unclean!"

[Franko]

Tricky: (on 1/7/2003)
Since this thread is about Logical Deism, I think we should recap what we know about it.

… And then after that you started your list. I have never endorsed your little list, and as I stated I haven’t even read it. Only an A-Theist makes claims about things based on no evidence, or no observation.

But why all the un-artful-dodger weeny-boy?

Despite all your whining about Me and Logical Deism you seem utterly unable to cite a SINGLE SPECIFIC POINT that you disagree with, and a SPECIFIC REASON for disagreeing.

I think that it has more to do with the fact that you are a Lifelong A-Theist (30+ years) with a superiority complex, and a bad case of Religious Fanaticism.

Meanwhile … the list of questions you seem unwilling and/or unable to answer just keeps growing and growing “free willy” fanatic. What or Where is the “YOU” in A-Theism/Pseudo-Materialism Trixy? Aren’t “YOU” (“the people”) just your physical brain(s)? … and isn’t your physical brain simply made of atoms (chemicals) obeying the same laws that ALL chemicals obey? How are the chemicals in your brain making “decisions” or “choices” beyond those made by any other chemicals? Are you claiming that the carbon atoms in your physical body obey a different set of rules from those obeyed by other carbon atoms?

What evidence or logical reason do you have for believing that these “choices” are real? Isn’t it a fact, that your “choices” are simple an illusion like the colors red, green, and blue, when the real reality is oscillating photons traveling at the speed of light? Isn’t your “free will” similarly an illusion while the real reality is that you are a puppet completely under the control of Almighty TLOP (The Laws of Physics)???

Please explain your reasoning for believing this? The fact that you have been going sooo far out of your way dodging this question for months and months makes me think that you believe this based solely on wishful thinking and pessimism, or because you simply don’t have enough integrity or intellectual honesty to concede the point.

I see no logical reason why you hold these beliefs.

[Tricky]

Originally posted by Franko


… And then after that you started your list. I have never endorsed your little list, and as I stated I haven’t even read it.

(Sigh) Okay, Franko, if this is the way you want it. Of course, The List was just in it's embryonic stage then. Nevertheless, you are exposed as a liar... again.
Originally posted by Franko on 1-7-2003
This universe is part of an omniverse.
True

This universe was created by the Logical Goddess (LG), who also created all the forces except gravity.
True

The Logical Goddess controls everything in this universe, but she is in turn controlled by "Fate".
False (this one is just worded poorly)

One soul = one graviton.
True

Gravitons come from outside this universe

Sort of … You really have to think of all things in terms of the Omniverse, this universe is within (inside) the Omniverse, so being “outside” of this universe, still leaves you inside the Omniverse. Essentially it is impossible for anything to be outside the Omniverse though.

The Logical goddess is the "top graviton".
True (that is the same as saying the LG is Omnipotent)

The gender of a graviton is determined by its spin.
True

Gravitons are inherantly either good or evil. The evil ones will burn for eternity.

Gravitons are intrinsically Good or Evil. That is true. Good Gravitons will move forward in Time (to a higher energy state), Evil Gravitons will move backwards in Time (to a lower energy state). From the POV of someone in a higher energy state, this Universe is “Hell”, and the state below this universe is even worse. But I am not talking about the Christian version of “hell” by ANY stretch of the imagination.

There is no free will. Not libertarian free will. Not compatiblist free will. None.
True

There are consequences for the things you do.
Obviously True

The things you do are the result of Maximum Perceived Benefit (MPB). This is not the same as free will.
True

You will be punished if your MPB causes you to do the wrong things.
True

The LG created The Laws Of Physics (TLOP), except for gravity.
True (Electro-magnetism, weak nuclear, strong nuclear are her babies)

The LG is the most conscious and complex entity in the universe.
True

TLOP are also conscious and complex.
False (technically)

TLOP is kind of the expression of the LG. The LG Herself is more analogous to the Initial State, but from your POV or mine, She is just a Gorgeous, Fabulous Babe.

TLOP created humans (except for the soul/graviton, which comes from outside the universe).
False (The LG is responsible for the shape and form of your bodies, but She didn’t create YOU. You are your Soul [your Graviton]. Your body is more analogous to the clothes you wear.

TLOP are more conscious and complex than humans.
Sorta True (badly worded)

The Logical Goddess is more complex than You or I, ergo She is a Superior Entity. In other words, God is more powerful and smarter than YOU are.

Everything in the universe is deterministic, including Quantum Mechanics.
True

The only other alternative being Magic.

[Franko]

… And then after that you started your list. I have never endorsed your little list, and as I stated I haven’t even read it. Only an A-Theist makes claims about things based on no evidence, or no observation.

But why all the un-artful-dodger weeny-boy?

Tricky: (dishonest A-Theist)
The List was just in it's embryonic stage then

i.e. you hadn't even started you stupid little diversion yet!

So who’s lying Trixy?

Your consciousness is an algorithm. The Logical Deists call this Algorithm MPB (Maximum Perceived Benefit). Essentially, here’s how it works.

Imagine your existence as consisting of a series (or sequence) of “decisions”. These “decisions” are triggered by a situation in Time (an event, and actually events are ALWAYS triggered by an entanglement with another consciousness). Whenever you find yourself approaching an “event” Your consciousness begins to scan through its memory of past situations, which are similar or analogous to the present one. From this database of past experiences (information from the past) your mind extrapolates and ranks a list of options.

But here is the thing … the list of options is RANKED, and the top choice on the list is the “option” that is perceived (by YOU) as MOST beneficial. It may not actually be the most beneficial choice in reality, mind you, but according to the information that you carry – as far as YOU know – it is your best choice. YOUR Consciousness always, Always, ALWAYS selects the option of Maximum perceived benefit. In reality you make NO choice. In reality you are an Algorithm that follows a preordained path based on logical rules.

Despite what you may think, your mind is not “magical” (or random/acausal). It only seems that way, because you do not fully understand it.

If you imagine a Tree-diagram, and you are a point particle following a path along that Tree, and when you reach a branch in the tree that represents a decision in your existence (a “choice you make”). Now even though you are on this Tree structure, the actual path you follow is a single jagged line, sort of like a lightning bolt would make. The LD call this your worldline, it is your path of Destiny (worldline through spacetime), it’s like your own personal path of least resistance.

The “Thing” that determines your “Path” is your MPB algorithm. Your Graviton (your fractal pattern in the Energy).

[Tricky]

Originally posted by Franko
… And then after that you started your list. I have never endorsed your little list, and as I stated I haven’t even read it. Only an A-Theist makes claims about things based on no evidence, or no observation.

But why all the un-artful-dodger weeny-boy?
And if you looked, you would see that all of those things are still on the list, except with the corrections you made. Of course, I have offered time and time again to make any corrections you wish. This is the best I can do without feedback from you, Franko. Is there some reason why you do not want your statements collected for posterity?

Originally posted by Franko
i.e. you hadn't even started you stupid little diversion yet!

So who’s lying Trixy?
You are lying, obviously. The very first paragraph of my post said.
Posted by Tricky on 1-7-2003
Since this thread is about Logical Deism, I think we should recap what we know about it. Here is a partial list. I am trying (in as much as is possible) to only list things that have been stated by the proponants of LD, and not my interpretations. If you want to add to the list, please do likewise.
The evidence is staring you in the face. Let's see your evidence.

Originally posted by Franko

Your consciousness is an algorithm. The Logical Deists call this Algorithm MPB (Maximum Perceived Benefit). Essentially, here’s how it works.

Imagine your existence as consisting of a series (or sequence) of “decisions”. These “decisions” are triggered by a situation in Time (an event, and actually events are ALWAYS triggered by an entanglement with another consciousness). Whenever you find yourself approaching an “event” Your consciousness begins to scan through its memory of past situations, which are similar or analogous to the present one. From this database of past experiences (information from the past) your mind extrapolates and ranks a list of options.
Pretty good, Franko. While it is certainly true that you rely on your past experiences to make decisions, there are some decisions for which you have no past experiences. In fact, at some point in your life, each experience was original. On what was MBP based on then?

And of course, it is easy to look back and say a decision was based on MPB, but that is hardly remarkable. Unless you can perfectly predict the future, then the results of MPB are no different from the results of free will. Free will says you can't perfectly predict the future. MPB says you can (given enough information). Since you you must admit that humans can never have "enough information" then you might as well accept free will, because you will never be able to prove it wrong.

Originally posted by Franko
But here is the thing … the list of options is RANKED, and the top choice on the list is the “option” that is perceived (by YOU) as MOST beneficial. It may not actually be the most beneficial choice in reality, mind you, but according to the information that you carry – as far as YOU know – it is your best choice. YOUR Consciousness always, Always, ALWAYS selects the option of Maximum perceived benefit. In reality you make NO choice. In reality you are an Algorithm that follows a preordained path based on logical rules.
How can you determine this without actually providing a list? This is the sort of begging the question (http://www.don-lindsay-archive.org/skeptic/arguments.html#begging) type of logical fallacy that you like to rail about. Look at the syllogism.

P1: You have a list of things ranked by preference.
P2: You choose from the list
C: You always pick the thing you prefer most.

As you can see, P1 and C are the same. You always prefer most the thing you prefer most.

Originally posted by Franko
Despite what you may think, your mind is not “magical” (or random/acausal). It only seems that way, because you do not fully understand it.

Despite what you may think, I don't think the mind is magical. I admit I don't fully understand the mind. I seriously doubt that you do.

Originally posted by Franko
If you imagine a Tree-diagram, and you are a point particle following a path along that Tree, and when you reach a branch in the tree that represents a decision in your existence (a “choice you make”). Now even though you are on this Tree structure, the actual path you follow is a single jagged line, sort of like a lightning bolt would make. The LD call this your worldline, it is your path of Destiny (worldline through spacetime), it’s like your own personal path of least resistance.

LOL! Bad analogy, Franko. Lightening bolts branch (I can show you pictures). Only cartoon lightening bolts are a single path. I see your philosophy is based on a simplistic cartoon of how nature really works.
http://www.otago.ac.nz/DeepSouth/0498/lightning%201.GIF
But your tree model has some promise. Imagine a molecule of water near the root of a tree. That molecule is absorbed and passes through the tree. At every limb, branch and twig, the molecule has a chance of going a different direction. Can you know the final destination of that molecule even before it is absorbed by the root? Of course not. Can your Logical Goddess? Well, she'll have to show me some proof.

Originally posted by Franko
The “Thing” that determines your “Path” is your MPB algorithm. Your Graviton (your fractal pattern in the Energy)..

My graviton determines the path? Well great! That means my graviton has free will. If it doesn't, then my graviton doesn't actually determine my path, but whatever made my graviton does. Or whatever made whatever made my graviton....
[Ed. Get these damn turtles out of here!]

[Franko]

Ohhh "Tricky", of course You are right. "We" all know that Solipsism is True.

Universes don't magically appear out of no where ... just You did.

[Tricky]

Originally posted by Franko
Ohhh "Tricky", of course You are right. "We" all know that Solipsism is True.

Universes don't magically appear out of no where ... just You did.
LOL. Got backed into a corner of that hole you dug? Theis is your normal response when you are shown the contradictions in the things that you, and only you, have said.

Tell me. How do you deal with the cognitive dissonance pains when you use the words "we all" and "Solipsism is true" in the same sentence?

[Franko]

LOL. Got backed into a corner of that hole you dug? Theis is your normal response when you are shown the contradictions in the things that you, and only you, have said.

What contradictions? It is quite obvious to me (a figment of your imagination) that “I” do not have any “free will”, because “I” don’t exist. Where is the “me”? I am simply a collection of chemicals (“physical brain”) fully and completely under the control of Almighty non-conscious TLOP (YOU).

Tell me. How do you deal with the cognitive dissonance pains when you use the words "we all" and "Solipsism is true" in the same sentence?

You’re asking a figment of your imagination … about why you are imagining “us”? … You … want “me” to explain that to YOU? Maybe you are bored?

[Tricky]

Originally posted by Franko
What contradictions? It is quite obvious to me (a figment of your imagination) that “I” do not have any “free will”, because “I” don’t exist. Where is the “me”? I am simply a collection of chemicals (“physical brain”) fully and completely under the control of Almighty non-conscious TLOP (YOU).
Okay, then I, the Almighty non-conscious TLOP order you to stop being an *********. (Boy I hope this works).

Originally posted by Franko
You’re asking a figment of your imagination … about why you are imagining “us”? … You … want “me” to explain that to YOU? Maybe you are bored?
You are usually boring, Franko, but occasionally you surprise me with an original and interesting thought. Maybe that's why I keep you around.

[Atarin]

Rosetta Stone...

The church that condemns people to think freely condones the enslavement of man kind.

Let's see, middle ages... didn't they used to burn people alive simply for new scientific discoveries? Yeah you're right, we should return to those ages because they were so intellectually brilliant back then.


Franko

Your post was long, and I enjoyed the read, thanks... though there are only a few things I wish to comment on.

First up, what do we have that is more interesting than "Free Will" exactly?

You believe in a "heaven" ? I tend to think that no matter who you are you will end up in the place you came from... If you're an A-theist, then you come from the Earth, and you return there once you die.

If you believe that we are souls, then I think that our soul simply returns to the higher levels of consciousness, continuing their journey movies... no one is turned away because the outside consciousness is way too high to even consider judgement of a harsh nature... it knows all, doesn't need to destroy, just change

Your beliefs relate to closely to those of the christian church on this matter in my view - Do this, do that, or don't get to heaven...

I don't think it makes sense to turn away anyone when nothing really matters, perhaps the graviton is not turned away, just the bad stuff gets changed?

If I am going to believe in a God, then I'm going to dismiss any notion of it being as petty as the majority of humans. I will believe in a God that knows all and created all... And the only negativity that we can experience is on this planet (and maybe some others, who knows what's out there)

Condemning a soul for what it did in the physical life would be like condemning a lion for eating a deer.


Tricky

Thanks for the link


As for the others posts, I'm extremely tired after work, so I'll read them later... unless it's just you two bickering of course ;)

[Rosetta Stone]

Originally posted by Atarin
Rosetta Stone...

The church that condemns people to think freely condones the enslavement of man kind.
No argument there.
I wouldn't advocate putting back the clock in such a way. My observation was merely that a catholic theologian might be able to provide a historical context for the items in that list. I hear echos of gnosticism, for example http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06592a.htm

You don't run across this sort of theologizing very often.

[Atarin]

Ah good to hear Rosetta stone :)

Scared me for a moment there, I thought you were "one of them" as in, those who limit growth due to old beliefs that are easily proven wrong.


Atarin Virtuar

[Rosetta Stone]

A lot of progress comes from having one's beliefs proven wrong, and one of the necessary requirements is to understand what it is that you believe. Tricky's list is valuable as field work, but it needs to be examined back in the lab (to see what's on the slab).

Since the individual who claims to hold of all these interesting beliefs is unwilling to explain them, I'm afraid we're on our own.

That's why catholicism seems like a logical starting point to me. After all, the church fathers spent hundreds of years developing a complex system for thinking about god, the universe, and everything, and we're just coming out of year one.

Even if we end up with nothing to show for our pains, it's worth applying some rigor to the problem.

"One of them" - aren't we all, to the other thems?

I should stop hijacking your very interesting thread with side issues.

Peace out.

[Tricky]

Originally posted by Rosetta Stone
A lot of progress comes from having one's beliefs proven wrong, and one of the necessary requirements is to understand what it is that you believe. Tricky's list is valuable as field work, but it needs to be examined back in the lab (to see what's on the slab).

Since the individual who claims to hold of all these interesting beliefs is unwilling to explain them, I'm afraid we're on our own.

That's why catholicism seems like a logical starting point to me. After all, the church fathers spent hundreds of years developing a complex system for thinking about god, the universe, and everything, and we're just coming out of year one.

Even if we end up with nothing to show for our pains, it's worth applying some rigor to the problem.

"One of them" - aren't we all, to the other thems?

I should stop hijacking your very interesting thread with side issues.

Peace out.
Well said, Rosetta. You rock.

[BillyTK]

Originally posted by Franko


What makes you believe that She knows what you will say or do next any more than I do?

Because you said she's omniscient, and bwing omniscient and having to anticipate seems a contradiction; plus if she created the universe and the universe is determined, why would she need to anticipate?

When someone tells me they are an "A-Theist" I may "Know" that they are a "free will" believer (in some form). I may know a lot of the exact arguments they will try using. I may even know some of the exact things they are going to say.

But not everything, I'd have to be Truly Omniscient (all-knowing) to know everything in advance, and not even my Goddess is Omniscient in that sense of the word. That kind of Omniscience ceased to exist with the Dawn of Individuality.

Okay; so what sense of "omniscient" are you using?

And sorry--but another question; can "bad" gravitons stop being "bad" gravitons? If so, how?

Thanks in advance
Billy

[ScottDYelich]

a --

so, if deja vu could be explained, would you reconsider all the other
"religion" that you propped up basing deja vu as the (primary)
foundation?

actually, I have been able to explain most all of my deja vus to my
satisfaction. I have questioned if they are glimpses from god or the spiritual world, etc... but when I can "back trace" them... it seems
like the answer is so much simpler.

so, the spiritualist says that I'm denying my spirituality or denying reality... I say: not really, if it IS truly supernatural, it will be proven. Until then, I am comfortable thinking that deja vu is a simple thing
that is simply not based on anything supernatural.

--

check out the everything-list .... they were working on a FAQ before
I got off the list... just don't confused with their words and frankos.

ToE, metaverse, etc.

Scott

[Atarin]

If it can be proven wrong, then yeah of course... I don't "believe it" as such yet... it's more of a "I hope I'm right" thing


Only when your own hopes and dreams perish can you truly understand the fallen man.


Philosophy gives me hope, and the unexplained even more... but I refuse to let myself go, so I will accept truth over hope regardless.


And I still haven't been able to figure out a logical reason for the Deja Vu except the above theory which appears logical in theory (no proof of course0

Hope that answers your questions.

Atarin Virtuar

[Franko]

Atarin: (Skeptic)
Your post was long, and I enjoyed the read, thanks... though there are only a few things I wish to comment on.

First up, what do we have that is more interesting than "Free Will" exactly?

Gravity, and lots of Time.

Atarin:
You believe in a "heaven" ? I tend to think that no matter who you are you will end up in the place you came from... If you're an A-theist, then you come from the Earth, and you return there once you die.

I believe in a "Metaverse", You could call it “Heaven”, it’s much like this Universe, only a Lot less ********. A-Theist, Theist, Deist, Agnostic, I don’t know if they all get what they “ask” for … (some of them would probably ask for All of us to be annihilated right along with them … and what good would that do?) … but like I was saying, I don’t know if they all get what they “ask” for, but they definitely ALL get what they deserve.

It’s Karma, every action has an equal an opposite reaction. Eventually that reaction is Always reflected back to it’s Source. But the reaction is magnified over time. DO something good, the longer you wait for the reward, the better the reward, if you do something bad, the longer you avoid the punishment, the worse the punishment.

If you believe that we are souls, then I think that our soul simply returns to the higher levels of consciousness, continuing their journey movies... no one is turned away because the outside consciousness is way too high to even consider judgement of a harsh nature... it knows all, doesn't need to destroy, just change

Yeah, but think about it. Either we are individuals, or we are not. If we are truly individuals, then a certain percentage of “Bad Individuals” is the price we pay for that individuality. Now, admittedly there are many “Bad Individuals” that can be conditioned, reformed, and rehabilitated, but the simple facts remains that due to the fundamental uniqueness of consciousness some of them are Destined for annihilation.

A certain percentage just cannot tolerate TRUTH beyond a specific threshold. It makes them insane (destroys them).

Your beliefs relate to closely to those of the christian church on this matter in my view - Do this, do that, or don't get to heaven...

Christianity is a good religion for the most part. I bet most Christians make it to Heaven.

I don't think it makes sense to turn away anyone when nothing really matters, perhaps the graviton is not turned away, just the bad stuff gets changed?

You definitely have the gist of it.

Look … there is only one way to modify a gravitons algorithm – positive and negative reinforcements. A positive reinforcement is a reward (something You find beneficial), a negative reinforcement is a punishment (something you find physically or mentally harmful (non-beneficial)). You, Me and God, we are ALL bound by the exact same brand of Logic, Gargoyle.

If I am going to believe in a God, then I'm going to dismiss any notion of it being as petty as the majority of humans. I will believe in a God that knows all and created all... And the only negativity that we can experience is on this planet (and maybe some others, who knows what's out there)

Condemning a soul for what it did in the physical life would be like condemning a lion for eating a deer.

The Deer goes straight to the Metaverse, so from the LG’s POV there was no real crime.

-- but getting to your first point, God is not “petty”. God is Omnibenevolent. In other words, the reason that She got to be “God”, is because everyone essentially agreed that She was the most Sane, and least Nuts. You need to get out of this A-Theist habit of blaming the LG for all the nonsense that gets perpetrated in Her Universe.

Like I said … this is just the Foyer. None of these nitwits are allowed in the main house! … are you kidding me? :cool:

[Atarin]

I see, nothing to really comment on there, just have to accept it as a "could be" for the moment ;)

Anyway, I'm a skeptic now? Hmm I feel that is an aspect of me, but I do not believe I can be totally put into that category...

I do agree with a lot, I just don't take it on as a belief until it's proven. Then I put it in my "hope this is reality" basket and live by it as if it were true to see how far I can go, but don't tell anyone that I am doing this hence no negative attention that religious/philosophical beings usually have to deal with.

(Life is boring if I have to live as an A-theist... meaningless existence, nothing to really strive for... sure success is cool, but I feel I need something more in the end... perhaps the "Goddess" has installed this emptiness within me? Girls can't fulfill it, so I know it's not instinctual on the hormonal front.)

I see myself as complex, so I'm still wondering what I'm going to be classed as ;)

Skeptic / Logical Deist / Athiest
None have suited me thus far to my knowledge.

Anyway, must get back to writing, otherwise this book will never get finished...

Take care
Atarin Virtuar

[Franko]

I see, nothing to really comment on there, just have to accept it as a "could be" for the moment

“Could be” is a lot better odds than you’ll get on “free willy”.

Anyway, I'm a skeptic now? Hmm I feel that is an aspect of me, but I do not believe I can be totally put into that category...

You are your memes. In that post … skeptical memes.

I do agree with a lot, I just don't take it on as a belief until it's proven.

Obviously that is not True or you could explain what the YOU is making those “free willy” “choices”.

Or you could explain why people who don’t believe in consequences for thier actions will behave as if they do? (they won’t!)

Then I put it in my "hope this is reality" basket and live by it as if it were true to see how far I can go, but don't tell anyone that I am doing this hence no negative attention that religious/philosophical beings usually have to deal with.

… or you could just pretend that there are no consequences for your actions, life is meaningless, and then you cease to exist. There are no answers to the mysteries of the Universe, because it is all just incomprehensible magic … :rolleyes:

Yeah, I see what you mean … tough call …

(Life is boring if I have to live as an A-theist... meaningless existence, nothing to really strive for... sure success is cool, but I feel I need something more in the end... perhaps the "Goddess" has installed this emptiness within me? Girls can't fulfill it, so I know it's not instinctual on the hormonal front.)

Ooooo, is that magic A-Theist mind-reading powers I’m seeing? You really have an unfair advantage being as I don’t really exist …

I see myself as complex, so I'm still wondering what I'm going to be classed as

Skeptic / Logical Deist / Athiest
None have suited me thus far to my knowledge.

Anyway, must get back to writing, otherwise this book will never get finished...

You do work in mysterious ways … ?

[Atarin]

If I am right about what I'm seeing in you now, your ability to read people is lacking or it is reflecting too much of what you have seen rather than what is?

Not sure... anyway:

“Could be” is a lot better odds than you’ll get on “free willy”.

How is free will relivant to what we were talking about exactly?

You are your memes. In that post … skeptical memes.

I am much more than simply memes... perhaps you simplify too much?

Obviously that is not True or you could explain what the YOU is making those “free willy” “choices”.
Or you could explain why people who don’t believe in consequences for thier actions will behave as if they do? (they won’t!)


The "YOU" or the "ME" is a complicated network of ideas, beliefs, memories, processing ability, imagination, current knowledge (form of memory) etc...

… or you could just pretend that there are no consequences for your actions, life is meaningless, and then you cease to exist. There are no answers to the mysteries of the Universe, because it is all just incomprehensible magic …

I could, but that would be conceding a great number of iq points... "That doesn't make sense to me right now, it must be magic... or God's work, a vengeful one's... all fear and give money to the church so you can get to heaven and escape the wrath of God!" - good old dark ages, got to love them


Yeah, I see what you mean … tough call …

What's a tough call? All I said was what I do in a certain aspect of life and why... which is actually an easy call - "Negativity comes from this - is not important to express this part of my mind - don't do it." Easy.

Ooooo, is that magic A-Theist mind-reading powers I’m seeing? You really have an unfair advantage being as I don’t really exist …

What are you talking about?

You do work in mysterious ways … ?

Again, what are you talking about?

Regards,
Atarin Virtuar

[Underemployed]

Dear Atarin,

The idea that all of existence already 'exists' and we just stumble through it is now part of an increasing number of ways of looking at reality. It's even in the Dilbert book The Dilbert Future!

It's part of quantum mechanics, apparently - the multiverse where all the possible things that could happen, happen. It doesn't take much to imagine that each of these universes is in fact a static frame in an infinitely large film reel. The only thing that moves is our perception/soul/consciousness, giving us the illusion of time. Or alternately (and side-stepping the issue of what happened before there were observers) there is a single consciousness/observer/soul/entity and we are all expressions of it.

Hence much wild talk about us being the imagination of ourselves. It's a seductive belief and, of course, there is no way to prove or disprove it. Regardless of it's truth it might make us all behave a bit better if we believe we're all one.

We certainly act as if we're individuals and that we have free will. Nothing to prove or disprove that either.

Oliver Wendell Holmes said, "Life is painting a picture, not doing a sum." Perhaps the universe and, by definition, our reality, is more art than equation. We are quite close to finding out 'how', after all. But no nearer to 'why'.

[Krandal]

Franko

This Universe that we find ourselves in is actually a joint entanglement we share with a common Graviton – The Logical Goddess (LG). She provides us with a common frame of reference, and a constant steady stream of information. Because the information She transmits is soo much more potent that that you receive from any other Graviton, you mind begins to give Her transmissions a special significance. You begin to perceive Her energy not as thoughts or words, or ideas, but as solid “matter” – it is “real”.

You know Franko....I often get the impression you know much more than you let on ;)

[sorgoth]

I bet you couldn't have predicted it BEFORE it happened.

Next time you have a dream like that, write it down, exactly. I'm willing to bet a large amount of money that reality will not be exactly like your dream.

Anyway, the only way you could have pre-chosen outcomes would be to not have free will, because, you see, EVERY SINGLE action you do affects reality in ways you can only dream of.
You would have to have INFINITE 'decision points' for free will to be feasible.

[Atarin]

Dear Underemployed

Thanks for the comments, I wasn't aware of how widely known the theory was.


sorgoth...

who knows... it's rare and very hard to know which dreams will be reality or not... so yeah, I don't see us ever getting this bet sorted

as for the whole free will thing, my theory was that life is like a game... an adventure game... every now and then you are faced with a decision, and by the choice you make, certain things will happen

for example - i decide to go to work today
now that i've chosen to do so - a few friends will be in because they have already decided on their paths which will lead them there

the next focus point - (the one i saw in my dream) is when we are all in the one place, and i say "ok we're going to go and ..."

or something

thus we still have free will, but cause and effect plays heavily in our lives

make a choice - get a result
when it comes into effect would vary from situation to situation

just a note - it's just speculation, i don't know what it was really... just telling you how i felt, what it seemed like, and my theories on what could have been the case

[Franko]

It's part of quantum mechanics, apparently - the multiverse where all the possible things that could happen, happen. It doesn't take much to imagine that each of these universes is in fact a static frame in an infinitely large film reel. The only thing that moves is our perception/soul/consciousness, giving us the illusion of time. Or alternately (and side-stepping the issue of what happened before there were observers) there is a single consciousness/observer/soul/entity and we are all expressions of it.

MWI ... here's the problem with that:

What is 2 + 2?

Now ... according to MWI, while (if) you answered this question correctly (4), an infinite number of parallel universes were created by the mere asking of this question, and in each of those Universes an identical copy of YOU gave every possible wrong answer.

... seems like a big waste of Universes to me. But at very least I am glad to be lucky enough to be in a universe where most people get the correct answer to 2 + 2 mostof the time.

[MRC_Hans]

The idea that all of existence already 'exists' and we just stumble through it is now part of an increasing number of ways of looking at reality. It's even in the Dilbert book The Dilbert Future!

Oooh? Then it MUST be true!

It's part of quantum mechanics, apparently - the multiverse where all the possible things that could happen, happen.

Nah, so far its more like a part of science fiction.

It doesn't take much to imagine that each of these universes is in fact a static frame in an infinitely large film reel. The only thing that moves is our perception/soul/consciousness, giving us the illusion of time.

Of course it would require each and every universe to be fictional (super Solipsism), otherwise there would be a slight problem with the combined masses of all those universes.

Or alternately (and side-stepping the issue of what happened before there were observers) there is a single consciousness/observer/soul/entity and we are all expressions of it.

Back to Solipsism. In which case we can sidestep anything, since in the Solipsist universe, nothing needs to follow rules.


Hans

[Atarin]

Does seem weird having that many dimensions... for each and every answer?

It would make more sense to just have the ability to choose those answers.. but the outcome is determined by everything else that relates in the present moment of the universe (it's all in the one universe)

Is that theory of the universe expanding and then imploding once it stops expanding still around?

The conversations with god books said that these were the breaths of God so to speak - the universe expands on exhale, and implodes on inhale... thus repeating the eternal cycle and allowing souls to experience a lot of movies!

(Just a thought)