Evolution battle brews in Texas / Victory for Evolution in Texas

[summand]

New instruction material prepared by the Board of Education says the 'null hypothesis' has to be that there had to be some intelligent agency behind the appearance of living things.
http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/142452/20110507/texas-controversy-over-teaching-evolution-brews.htm

[Cainkane1]

New instruction material prepared by the Board of Education says the 'null hypothesis' has to be that there had to be some intelligent agency behind the appearance of living things.
http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/142452/20110507/texas-controversy-over-teaching-evolution-brews.htm
Texas iis a great place to live until they pull a stunt like this.

[Dancing David]

It looks as though it is a possible choice, not yet decided. But yuck, 'teach all sides', so "here we have alchemy and druidism"

[arthwollipot]

Evolution battle brews in TexasAnd in other news, water is wet!

[Marduk]

stephen samples website here with all his teaching pdfs
http://www.internationaldatabasesllc.com
won't help much though as they are all password protected
why am I suspicious ?

[RLBaty]

New instruction material prepared by the Board of Education says the 'null hypothesis' has to be that there had to be some intelligent agency behind the appearance of living things.

http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/142452/20110507/texas-controversy-over-teaching-evolution-brews.htm





The article has this gem:

> "Sample...emphasizes that he wants
> students to learn to think critically..."

Maybe he ought to get some of those students to come around here and partake in my little exercise in "critical thinking"! :)

[Marduk]

Maybe he ought to get some of those students to come around here and partake in my little exercise in "critical thinking"! :)

this is what will happen
1. they will say its invalid
2, you will ignore their objections and questions
3. you will lie to other people about the results

or in other words
the normal fundie procedure
:rolleyes:

[RLBaty]

This is what will happen:

1. They will say its invalid.

2, You will ignore their objections and questions.

3. You will lie to other people about the results.



1. Some already have. What say ye, Marduk!

2. False. I have a long history of dealing with legitimate objections and qustions; though my patronage of anonymous, illegitimate snipers does have its limits.

3. False. What my ministry here has demonstrated is that, if there is lying about results regarding such things, the anonymous skeptic is most likely the guilty party.

Should there be any legitimate interests regarding such things, they are welcome to engage that discussion under the "critical thinking" thread I started; or even get out of the house and come around to my place for a discussion (e.g., a little requited love would be a nice gesture).

[tyr_13]

1. Some already have. What say ye, Marduk!

2. False. I have a long history of dealing with legitimate objections and qustions; though my patronage of anonymous, illegitimate snipers does have its limits.

3. False. What my ministry here has demonstrated is that, if there is lying about results regarding such things, the anonymous skeptic is most likely the guilty party.

Should there be any legitimate interests regarding such things, they are welcome to engage that discussion under the "critical thinking" thread I started; or even get out of the house and come around to my place for a discussion (e.g., a little requited love would be a nice gesture).

Do you have any explanation why the null hypothesis should be intelligent design?

[bikerdruid]

so the religious right is dragging scientific thought, kicking and screaming, back to the dark ages. nothing new.
the tragedy is that this blindness is being taught to children as truth.
is the next 'theory' to go going to be the heliocentric solar system?

[RLBaty]

Do you have any explanation why the null
hypothesis should be intelligent design?



Nope; don't speak that language!

[tyr_13]

Nope; don't speak that language!

That's alright. Thanks anyway.

[Emet]

Here's a peek:

http://www.tfn.org/site/DocServer/InterData_Fact_Sheet.pdf?docID=2481

[DallasDad]

From Slide #7:The slide below tells students that “until advocates of non-intelligent causes sustain their claim,” students must accept that life on earth is a result of intelligent causes.'Nuff said. This isn't even an attempt at objectivity. It's creationist claptrap.

[Lowpro]

Yea I read Slide 7 and, well it's ID bullcrap. I assume Baty will ignore the obvious and be obtuse.

[Wowbagger]

How can "intelligent agency" be the null hypothesis? Wouldn't that be a positive claim that, itself, would require a null hypothesis, if it could be tested?

[Floyt]

How can "intelligent agency" be the null hypothesis? Wouldn't that be a positive claim that, itself, would require a null hypothesis, if it could be tested?

The null hypothesis should be the "default" position. Phrase it like that ("We must assume it's Intelligent Design until proven otherwise") and it a) probably wouldn't be swallowed by many people who are agreeably baffled by the terminology, and b) tells you all you need to know about the agenda (critical thinking my ass...)

[Driftwood]

It looks as though it is a possible choice, not yet decided. But yuck, 'teach all sides', so "here we have alchemy and druidism"

Yeah, the "teach all sides" garbage is simply that: garbage. It's a false equivalency made in an attempt to bring legitimacy to nothing more than fundamentalist religion into the science lab. It's insidious.

[godless dave]

How can "intelligent agency" be the null hypothesis? Wouldn't that be a positive claim that, itself, would require a null hypothesis, if it could be tested?

To a scientist, yes.

To someone who values tradition over evidence, the intelligent agency is the null hypothesis because that's what most people believed for thousands of years.

[Wowbagger]

To someone who values tradition over evidence, the intelligent agency is the null hypothesis because that's what most people believed for thousands of years.
For a null hypothesis to be useful to science, it would need to be tested-for. We should ask these folks: How, exactly, does one go about testing for the existence of the "Intelligent Agency"? How can we, more specifically, isolate and measure the very properties of God?!

[BadBoy]

This actually stresses me out a bit. Makes me a bit angry. If these guys want to believe in fairy stories fine with me, but hands off our science.

Because it is so obviously not critical thinking, why do you think they do it? Power? missguided/subconsciousthinking (i.e that cant help it)? plain idiocy?

JeeezzzzzzUS!

[goodm0urning]

I don't think I'm wrong in saying that reason always wins... eventually.

Our planet is round, it goes around the sun, and every organism on it descended from a lineage of previous organisms that goes all the way back to the single-celled creatures that originally populated our oceans. The pattern is always the same: at first, the public at large does its best to ignore or suppress that which is indisputably true. Things slowly change, until eventually only the fringe whackos are left holding the "traditional" beliefs.

[Driftwood]

I'm just concerned that when we take two steps forward and one step back, that we're going to stumble in the process and fall off the edge of a cliff. There is a ready number of people, just in the U.S. alone, that distrusts science. The hope is that such a number of people diminishes until it reaches irrelevance, but with what is going on in Oklahoma, Kansas, and now Texas, I'm not certain we're reaching that point just yet, so we have to remain alert.

[TragicMonkey]

I'm not surprised Texans don't believe in evolution. They can look around and see themselves undergoing the process backwards. In that situation, of course they want the assistance of omnipotent deities, it's their only hope.

[Jekyll's Guest]

If these boobs rage against evolution much longer they will hopefully revert and head out to sea, thus sparing us future trouble.

[godless dave]

Because it is so obviously not critical thinking, why do you think they do it? Power? missguided/subconsciousthinking (i.e that cant help it)? plain idiocy?


The politicians do it because they know it will get votes from their base. There's probably some sheer idiocy in play too, for some of them at least.

[stokes234]

The politicians do it because they know it will get votes from their base. There's probably some sheer idiocy in play too, for some of them at least.

Similar to the method by which the polar ice caps keep themselves cool, creationist communities keep themselves stupid. If you say something like "but whyfore still there be monkeys!" and everyone around you nods and mumbles "yeaaaaah!", you're going to be more inclined to keep believing it than if you said it in sweden and the person next to you slapped you upside the head.

[gnome]

Time to insist that they justify why their "null hypothesis" is superior to the "flying spaghetti monster" hypothesis.

[Craig4]

You know for people who tend to claim they are patriots they sure have a way of betraying one of the United State's core principals. I guess all the courts were just talking to themselves when they said this was a violation of the Constitution over and over again.

[Driftwood]

You know for people who tend to claim they are patriots they sure have a way of betraying one of the United State's core principals. I guess all the courts were just talking to themselves when they said this was a violation of the Constitution over and over again.

Don't you know? Jesus commissioned George Washington and Thomas Jefferson to build this holy Christian Nation!™ At least, that's how it seems to work.

[ehcks]

Don't you know? Jesus commissioned George Washington and Thomas Jefferson to build this holy Christian Nation!™ At least, that's how it seems to work.

I thought they wanted to pass over Jefferson because he started the "Separation between Church and State" bit they hate so much.

[Driftwood]

I thought they wanted to pass over Jefferson because he started the "Separation between Church and State" bit they hate so much.

No, no, no, friend, you have it all wrong. Jefferson definitely talked about loving Jesus and that the U.S. was based on Christianity. You can read the very accredited source here: [LINK] (http://www.bible.com/) :xwink

[gnome]

The usual argument made by creationists (and others that take the opposing side on the separation debate) as I understand it is that as the Founders intended it "Separation" meant the government kept its nose out of religion's business, full stop. Not vice versa at all.

The same people tend to interpret the Establishment clause as narrowly as they accuse others of interpreting the 2nd amendment--that the only restriction is against Congress providing an official religion for the nation. Indirect "respects" such as funding or preferential treatment doesn't count to them. Nor do they accept the doctrine of incorporation which applies these restrictions to the state. According to them, a state setting up an official religion is perfectly Constitutional. Never mind that under the same reasoning a state is free to restrict speech, the press, peaceable assembly, AND FREE EXERCISE. http://forums.randi.org/images/smilies/What%28tiny%29.gif

[KingMerv00]

This actually stresses me out a bit. Makes me a bit angry. If these guys want to believe in fairy stories fine with me, but hands off our science.

Because it is so obviously not critical thinking, why do you think they do it?

...

JeeezzzzzzUS!

You answered your own question.

[LarianLeQuella]

Okay, teach them that it's ID, but the intelligence is named Allah, and they must all face east when they say his name...

Oh, that's not what they meant? See their true colours coming out then.

[Emet]

PZ Myers wrote a short article a few days ago:

Texas, again
Posted on: May 20, 2011

That place is just a magnet for nuts. There is going to be a review of the science curriculum next month, and the creationists on the state board of education are gearing up by appointing more creationists to staff the panels. Furthermore, they're gathering specific curriculum materials, and skewing them towards lunacy.

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2011/05/texas_again.php

[Gawdzilla]

"My lawyer can whip your lawyer!"

[TragicMonkey]

"My lawyer can whip your lawyer!"

That's what they said in the UK over the Spanner case, and they were ruled against.

[drewid]

It looks as though it is a possible choice, not yet decided. But yuck, 'teach all sides', so "here we have alchemy and druidism"

I was thinking that.

Perhaps someone should suggest Pagan studies to run alongside religious education, and the Egyptian/ Aboriginal Australian/ Indonesian / Pick-A-Myth-Cycle creation tales just for good measure.

[Gawdzilla]

That's what they said in the UK over the Spanner case, and they were ruled against.

They should have tried again.

[Red3]

What are they gonna have for the practical part of the lessons - witch dunking?

[Gawdzilla]

What are they gonna have for the practical part of the lessons - witch dunking?

Something like this:

[Red3]

That could be frighteningly accurate if these nutjobs don't get reigned in.

[Gawdzilla]

That could be frighteningly accurate if these nutjobs don't get reigned in.

That's why I fight. I'm no fan of the 12th Century lifestyle, and don't like the idea that we could return to it if those barbarians have their way with our schools.

[AcesHigh]

And in other news, water is wet!

I suppose water is not that wet when close to absolute zero.

[Red3]

That's why I fight. I'm no fan of the 12th Century lifestyle, and don't like the idea that we could return to it if those barbarians have their way with our schools.

The idea of them getting their way on this at any kind of nation wide level makes my blood boil, whether it be the U.S, U.K - wherever. They need weeding out every time they rear their heads, but I fear that won't happen due to political correctness within the authorities and an increasingly vocal Christian resurgence (well, resurgence here or so it seems).

[Driftwood]

I suppose water is not that wet when close to absolute zero.

It's only solid when Jesus wants to walk on it. :D

[tjlance1]

In thinking about evolution vs. intelligent design I can see how easy it is for people to dismiss what is known in favor of that which hasn't or will ever be proven. Evolution, IMHO requires a fair amount of conceptualization to rationally understand the process. The average person does not view time in the same way the universe does. How many people "lose track of time" or because 12 hours have passed cannot recall what they ate for dinner the night before. So is it far fetched to think that those same people cannot comprehend what 350 million years in terms of evolution really is? Ask the average person how old the universe is and I bet they have no answer.

The average person, and when I mean this, everyday people that I know, have no clue how we could have evolved from those first single celled organisms. So it is much easier to believe that some greater power put all of this together and the result is what we see today. It is unimaginable to some to think that one small change in evolutionary history could have led to a different outcome for our species. It's too scary of a thought for some. So here come the fundamentalists.. you don;t have to worry about such things as evolution, and neither do your children; we have it figured out for you..intelligent design. It fits neatly into most people's perceptions of the universe.

[dafydd]

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/thum_234094e066a1d7a94c.jpg (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=23629)

[Emet]

In thinking about evolution vs. intelligent design I can see how easy it is for people to dismiss what is known in favor of that which hasn't or will ever be proven. Evolution, IMHO requires a fair amount of conceptualization to rationally understand the process. The average person does not view time in the same way the universe does. How many people "lose track of time" or because 12 hours have passed cannot recall what they ate for dinner the night before. So is it far fetched to think that those same people cannot comprehend what 350 million years in terms of evolution really is? Ask the average person how old the universe is and I bet they have no answer.


Your point is well taken. In the US, educational levels correlate with belief in evolution. But religious beliefs play a stronger role, according to this 2009 Gallup poll (http://www.gallup.com/poll/114544/darwin-birthday-believe-evolution.aspx).


Mar. 23, 2011
State governments are grappling with massive budget deficits, overburdened social programs, and mountains of deferred spending. But never mind all that. For some conservative lawmakers, it's the perfect time to legislate the promotion of creationism in the classroom. In the first three months of 2011, nine creationism-related bills have been introduced in seven states—that's more than in any year in recent memory:


http://motherjones.com/blue-marble/2011/03/9-bills-creationism-classroom

[Complexity]

I say we launch a rescue mission, get anyone who is salvagable out of Texas, and then go to war with Mexico and lose so that we can give Texas back to it.

[triadboy]

http://ncse.com/news/2011/07/victory-evolution-texas-006802

In an 8-0 vote, the board today approved scientifically accurate high school biology textbook supplements from established mainstream publishers--and did not approve the creationist-backed supplements from International Databases, LLC.

So "God did it" is not working well in Texas right now.

[AdMan]

http://ncse.com/news/2011/07/victory-evolution-texas-006802

In an 8-0 vote, the board today approved scientifically accurate high school biology textbook supplements from established mainstream publishers--and did not approve the creationist-backed supplements from International Databases, LLC.

So "God did it" is not working well in Texas right now.


Good news on education coming from Texas for a change.

[Resume]

Good.

[Complexity]

I'm shocked.

Pleasantly so. This is the first sign of intelligence I've seen coming out of Texas in a generation.

[Achán hiNidráne]

That's actually good news for a change.

[Elizabeth I]

I'm shocked.

Pleasantly so. This is the first sign of intelligence I've seen coming out of Texas in a generation.

A-HEM! :(

Even more encouraging, some preachers spoke in favor of keeping religion out of science class, one from right here in San Antonio.

[fuelair]

Yeeee-Hawww!!

[Bram Kaandorp]

Can't say I've ever experienced such controversies personally (regarding evolution), and I was on a Christian elementary school.

But I am very happy for all people involved.

Here's to hoping it stays this way (that is, in a scientific manner, not a dogmatic manner).

[Complexity]

A-HEM! :(


I tried pleasing someone once, and then everyone expected me to do the same for them.

I think you ought to admit that the flow of idiocy from Texas has surpassed the flow of idiocy from the rest of the United States (combined) for the past several years. It is possible that I missed a few glimmers of light that may have escaped from the galaxy-sucking black hole of willful ignorance that is Texas. If so, I apologize to those lonely few who have, so far, escaped obliteration.

[Phrenolo]

As one lonely escapee of obliteration, I can attest to one glimmer: The Atheist Experience TV Show.

[AdMan]

As one lonely escapee of obliteration, I can attest to one glimmer: The Atheist Experience TV Show.


Yes! :thumbsup:

[DallasDad]

Excellent! I was watching this with great trepidation.

[Complexity]

As one lonely escapee of obliteration, I can attest to one glimmer: The Atheist Experience TV Show.


I will gladly check it out.

I know that there are pockets of sanity scattered throughout Texas, but there most be something in the water...

[AdMan]

I know that there are pockets of sanity scattered throughout Texas...


As a graduate of the University of Texas at Austin, I can attest to that.

I do wish they weren't so small pockets, though. :(

[Complexity]

As a graduate of the University of Texas at Austin, I can attest to that.

I do wish they weren't so small pockets, though. :(


U of T at Austin was one place that I considered doing my graduate work at. I didn't follow through with an application there, but it was on my shorter list. Austin has the reputation of being one of the most liveable (expecially intellectually) places in Texas.

[Craig4]

I'd like to think this is enlightenment. I think it's more likely that the board of education looked at the cost of the Dover trial and decided not to go out like that.

[Brainache]

This is good news, but I also think it is a little bit sad that something like this is seen as a victory. A school board choosing a science textbook that is based on science, not religion should be a normal occurrence, not reason for celebration.

The fact that people are celebrating this decision only indicates how rare this kind of thing is. I think that is a pity.

[FramerDave]

U of T at Austin was one place that I considered doing my graduate work at. I didn't follow through with an application there, but it was on my shorter list. Austin has the reputation of being one of the most liveable (expecially intellectually) places in Texas.

It is a lovely city. Pity it's located in Texas.

[Complexity]

It is a lovely city. Pity it's located in Texas.


It is the only place in Texas I've wanted to visit.

[ParrotPirate]

I'm shocked.

Pleasantly so. This is the first sign of intelligence I've seen coming out of Texas in a generation.

Got that right!

[RandFan]

A ray of light shines.

[Vortigern99]

There are far more "rays of light" in terms of intelligence, atheism, skepticism and compassion in Texas than people who are not from here and who do not live here are willing or able to acknowledge or understand.

The OP is good news but not surprising to me in the least. All Texan educators I know and have spoken with on the subject are pro-science and accept evolution, even if they are also religious.

[fuelair]

I'm shocked.

Pleasantly so. This is the first sign of intelligence I've seen coming out of Texas in a generation.

Hey!! they had MOlly Ivins!!! Until she died a very few years back.:(

[Robin]

Victory for evolution in more than one sense.

[Elizabeth I]

There are far more "rays of light" in terms of intelligence, atheism, skepticism and compassion in Texas than people who are not from here and who do not live here are willing or able to acknowledge or understand.

The OP is good news but not surprising to me in the least. All Texan educators I know and have spoken with on the subject are pro-science and accept evolution, even if they are also religious.

Ah, but you live in Austin, the only ray of light in this black hole that is a 268,580-square-mile state with a population of 24,782,302 people, all of whom are of course (with the exception of Matt Dillahunty and his meager crew of four or five enlightened beings) exactly the same kind of people, sharing exactly the same beliefs and spending all their spare time listening to country music, getting drunk on Lone Star, shooting "evil-lutionists," and looking for queers to stomp. :rolleyes:

The thing is that the same people who say this kind of thing about Texas would, I think, be - quite correctly - offended if someone were to say that all black people are shiftless or all Mexicans are thieves or all Jews are moneygrubbers or all gays are pedophiles. Stereotypes are wrong, unless of course you are talking about Texas.

[Vortigern99]

You said a mouthful there, Elizabeth! Every time a thread pops up about an event or social phenomenon in Texas -- anywhere on the 'Net, not just here at the JREF -- people who don't live here, and/or have never spent a day in their life here, decide to chime in about how deplorable the culture in Texas is, how stupid its residents are, how backwards its ways.

These are the same people who will argue with you if you talk about the Texas coastline ("Texas does not have beaches or islands!") and who think Texas is a desert full of cacti and tumbleweeds. To them, it seems, our cultural heritage is as barren as they imagine our landscape to be.

I say: Fine. Good. Stay out. Keep to your delusions. The traffic is getting too thick around here anyway.

More on-topic, yes -- this state is full of Christians. Catholics, Lutherans, Baptists, Methodists. I invite one and all to point to a state in the US that is not. Meanwhile, as evinced in the OP, we also have masses of free-thinkers, intellectuals, scientists, skeptics, agnostics, atheists, educators, artists -- in short, people who defy the absurd stereotype forced on us by the rest of the country.

[RandFan]

Some very fair points about stereotypes. It is wrong to judge an entire group of people by just a segment of that group. Even in rural areas there are a lot of decent people. Some are misinformed or rely too heavily and religious authority and indoctrination but that doesn't make them evil.

We can't recommend The Atheist Experience (part of the Atheist Community of Austin) too much. I watch it every week. I love it and have great admiration for the people there. Click on the picture to watch their most recent episode or peruse the archive (http://www.atheist-experience.com/archive/).



Edited, breach of rule 5.

[Toontown]

Look at it this way: If you need heart surgury, would you want a surgeon who was taught creationist garbage in school to be digging around in your chest cavity?

Exactly. The average Texan's IQ may be 4 points lower than that of the despised Okies to the north. The average Texan may cling stubbornly to an ancient and outmoded religious ideology. But that doesn't mean they want poorly educated people digging around in their chests.

There are only moderate creationists in operating rooms.

[Vortigern99]

Are you aware that Houston is one of the premiere medical communities in the world? Your post doesn't make a lick of sense.

[Elizabeth I]

You said a mouthful there, Elizabeth! Every time a thread pops up about an event or social phenomenon in Texas -- anywhere on the 'Net, not just here at the JREF -- people who don't live here, and/or have never spent a day in their life here, decide to chime in about how deplorable the culture in Texas is, how stupid its residents are, how backwards its ways.

These are the same people who will argue with you if you talk about the Texas coastline ("Texas does not have beaches or islands!") and who think Texas is a desert full of cacti and tumbleweeds. To them, it seems, our cultural heritage is as barren as they imagine our landscape to be.

...yes -- this state is full of Christians. Catholics, Lutherans, Baptists, Methodists. I invite one and all to point to a state in the US that is not. Meanwhile, as evinced in the OP, we also have masses of free-thinkers, intellectuals, scientists, skeptics, agnostics, atheists, educators, artists -- in short, people who defy the absurd stereotype forced on us by the rest of the country.
Yep, I had Chocolate Bunny Brunch on Easter Sunday with the San Antonio Atheists - good food and good company (and the restaurant owner wound up comping our entire group.) Along with a really exciting art community, San Antonio has a thriving biomedical industry and is home to the Southwest Research Institute (http://www.swri.org/). As a result of hosting "Mexico: Thirty Centuries of Splendor," the San Antonio Museum of Art (http://www.samuseum.org/) now houses the Rockefeller collection of Latin American folk art. We have one of only four campuses of the Culinary Institute of America (http://www.ciachef.edu/) (which consistently disorients me by abbreviating itself "CIA.") True, our symphony (http://www.sasymphony.org/) struggles almost constantly (and I hate that), but the community always manages to help it pull through.

Houston has hundreds, if not thousands, of engineers involved in the oil and space industries (not quite so many in space any more, damn it! :() - including our own Tricky - along with the Menil Collection (http://www.menil.org/), among other museums, and the Houston Grand Opera (http://www.houstongrandopera.org/). I once drove myself almost crazy with covetousness at a Fabergé exhibit at the Amon Carter Museum (http://www.cartermuseum.org/) in Ft. Worth. Even benighted Dallas has an opera company (http://www.dallasopera.org) and several fine museums (http://www.dallas-things-to-do.com/best-dallas-museums/).

And, oh, yeah, no less than the New York Times reported that, "Parenting by Gays is More Common in the South (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/19/us/19gays.html?pagewanted=all)." San Antonio, Texas, has the largest percentage (34%) of LGBT couples raising children (http://blog.mysanantonio.com/clockingin/2011/06/s-a-ranked-no-1-for-lgbt-families-raising-kids/) in the country.

Are there ignorant, bigoted people in Texas? Of course there are. Where aren't there ignorant, bigoted people? Do you need to paint every square foot of the state and every member of the entire population with the "ignorant bigot" brush? Only if you intend to place yourself right there with the rest of the ignorant bigots.


I say: Fine. Good. Stay out. Keep to your delusions. The traffic is getting too thick around here anyway.
Yes, I'd like to add that the state is full of rattlesnakes so irritable they bite themselves if they can't find anything else, and waterbugs big enough to saddle and ride, if they weren't so ugly. The fire ants are putting together a PAC to run one of the queens for governor. The dust constantly blows so thick and hard in West Texas that all you need to do to sandblast your car is leave it out of the garage. Sorry I said all that good stuff up above. I take it back. All you people really need to stay out of Texas. You wouldn't like it.


Look at it this way: If you need heart surgury, would you want a surgeon who was taught creationist garbage in school to be digging around in your chest cavity?

Exactly. The average Texan's IQ may be 4 points lower than that of the despised Okies to the north. The average Texan may cling stubbornly to an ancient and outmoded religious ideology. But that doesn't mean they want poorly educated people digging around in their chests.

There are only moderate creationists in operating rooms.
What the hell? (And most of the Texas residents I know can spell "surgery.")

[Vortigern99]

^ ^ ^ Nominated.

[RandFan]

Look at it this way: If you need heart surgury...

What the hell? (And most of the Texas residents I know can spell "surgery.") :) Ouch!

[RhodyDave]

Good news! Refreshing to see that reason is winning out over superstition, even if it's just this one example.

[Darth Rotor]

Ah, but you live in Austin, the only ray of light in this black hole that is a 268,580-square-mile state with a population of 24,782,302 people, all of whom are of course (with the exception of Matt Dillahunty and his meager crew of four or five enlightened beings) exactly the same kind of people, sharing exactly the same beliefs and spending all their spare time listening to country music, getting drunk on Lone Star, shooting "evil-lutionists," and looking for queers to stomp. :rolleyes:

The thing is that the same people who say this kind of thing about Texas would, I think, be - quite correctly - offended if someone were to say that all black people are shiftless or all Mexicans are thieves or all Jews are moneygrubbers or all gays are pedophiles. Stereotypes are wrong, unless of course you are talking about Texas.
She shoots, she scores.
You said a mouthful there, Elizabeth! Every time a thread pops up about an event or social phenomenon in Texas -- anywhere on the 'Net, not just here at the JREF -- people who don't live here, and/or have never spent a day in their life here, decide to chime in about how deplorable the culture in Texas is, how stupid its residents are, how backwards its ways.

These are the same people who will argue with you if you talk about the Texas coastline ("Texas does not have beaches or islands!") and who think Texas is a desert full of cacti and tumbleweeds. To them, it seems, our cultural heritage is as barren as they imagine our landscape to be.

I say: Fine. Good. Stay out. Keep to your delusions. The traffic is getting too thick around here anyway.

More on-topic, yes -- this state is full of Christians. Catholics, Lutherans, Baptists, Methodists. I invite one and all to point to a state in the US that is not. Meanwhile, as evinced in the OP, we also have masses of free-thinkers, intellectuals, scientists, skeptics, agnostics, atheists, educators, artists -- in short, people who defy the absurd stereotype forced on us by the rest of the country.
This as well.
Are you aware that Houston is one of the premiere medical communities in the world? Your post doesn't make a lick of sense.
I might add that a very sharp and hardworking engineer, called on the JREF forums Geek Goddess, is a leader in a Houston area skeptic gathering. See also the research and education professional Elizabeth I ...

Anyway, it is nice to see that sometimes, the windbags in politics are countered by folks who have an interest in education.
Now, if we could only do something about that abomination called TAKS ... :p

[Rincewind]

Has Pat Robinson (Robertson? - you'll need to forigve me, I'm a European...:)) threatened Texas with divine retribution yet?

[Elizabeth I]

^ ^ ^ Nominated.

She shoots, she scores.

This as well.

I might add that a very sharp and hardworking engineer, called on the JREF forums Geek Goddess, is a leader in a Houston area skeptic gathering. See also the research and education professional Elizabeth I ...

Anyway, it is nice to see that sometimes, the windbags in politics are countered by folks who have an interest in education.
Now, if we could only do something about that abomination called TAKS ... :p
Thank you. :blush:

And I'm sorry I forgot GG. And Darth Rotor Johnson is right about TAKS. :D

[Vortigern99]

I became an atheist in Houston in the 80s. That city has a sizeable population of agnostics and free-thinkers -- precisely as one would expect from one of the biggest cities in the world.

[slingblade]

The average Texan's IQ may be 4 points lower than that of the despised Okies to the north.

Despised Okie, here. :mad:

Even I'm smart enough to know you don't mess with Texas. Or Oklahoma. 'Cuz we're OK.

[rwguinn]

I'm shocked.

Pleasantly so. This is the first sign of intelligence I've seen coming out of Texas in a generation.
I guess I must resemble that remark :o
:boxedin:

[Weak Kitten]

This is wonderful news. Because of their size and population Texas often influences the contents of text books for the entire rest of the country. This is a great turnaround and I hope it continues in the future.

[Craig4]

This is wonderful news. Because of their size and population Texas often influences the contents of text books for the entire rest of the country. This is a great turnaround and I hope it continues in the future.

The reason for this is that the Texas market is the largest text book market in the country. They have a Statewide curriculum so when the State Board of education adopts a text it adopts it for the whole state. This gives Texas a lot of influence over what's taught in the rest of the country.

[bikerdruid]

This gives Texas a lot of influence over what's taught in the rest of the country.

that scary thought makes the news related by this thread that much more wonderful.

[Darth Rotor]

This is wonderful news. Because of their size and population Texas often influences the contents of text books for the entire rest of the country. This is a great turnaround and I hope it continues in the future.
;)
You do realize, I hope, that with this vote comes a requirement (the usual rider to a bill) that each text book shall be delivered with a half dozen jalapeños grown in the Rio Grande Valley. (Hey, this is politics we are talkin' about here, you expect the agriculture (jalapeño) lobby to stay out of Austin? :cool: )

Enjoy! :)

[Elizabeth I]

Despised Okie, here. :mad:

Even I'm smart enough to know you don't mess with Texas. Or Oklahoma. 'Cuz we're OK.
'Sokay. We love you even if you are from Oklahoma. Shoot, we even let y'all hang out in Dallas during Texas-OU weekend. ;)


that scary thought makes the news related by this thread that much more wonderful.
Did you read any of the rest of this thread?

[Toontown]

What the hell? (And most of the Texas residents I know can spell "surgery.")

Really? Can't say the same about most Texans I've met. I suppose I'll have to be more careful with my spelling, to avoid being unfavourably compared to Texans.

BTW, 1 in 3 Texans cannot read this sentence or comprehend the map depicted in the following link:

http://www-tcall.tamu.edu/docs/09illitmap.html

But it's good to know Texas atheists are a cut above.

[bikerdruid]

'
Did you read any of the rest of this thread?
yes i did.
however, with the numerous threads about rick perry, and the fact that executions happen regularly, and having met many texan rednecks tin alberta's oil industry, i don't have much of a positive exposure to texan culture.
sorry, but that is the 'image from afar'.
i'm pleased when ever i see something that rattles the paradigm.
no offense is intended to more enlightened texans.

[slingblade]

'Sokay. We love you even if you are from Oklahoma. Shoot, we even let y'all hang out in Dallas during Texas-OU weekend. ;)


Well bless your hearts! :D:D:D

[Elizabeth I]

Really? Can't say the same about most Texans I've met. I suppose I'll have to be more careful with my spelling, to avoid being unfavourably compared to Texans.

BTW, 1 in 3 Texans cannot read this sentence or comprehend the map depicted in the following link:

http://www-tcall.tamu.edu/docs/09illitmap.html

But it's good to know Texas atheists are a cut above.

You read nothing else that Vortigern or I wrote, did you?

I can quote statistics too: 25% of adult San Antonians are functionally illiterate. 33% of high-school freshmen drop out before graduation. The number of births to unmarried teen mothers is one of the highest in the country. But I wonder if any of that could be due to cultural and economic factors, instead of stupidity? I wonder if there are any individuals or organizations working to help people who fit into those percentages? I wonder if there are any other areas of the U.S., or of the world, where people struggle with education?

If you suffer a traumatic injury, your bad luck may be offset if you have the good luck to do so in Houston, location of Ben Taub Hospital, one of the nation's best trauma centers. If you suffer catastrophic burns, you may well be airlifted to Brooke Army Medical Center at Fort Sam Houston in San Antonio - whether you are military or civilian. The surgeon who removed my husband's kidney receives referrals from across the U.S.

Do some research before you shoot off your mouth, and don't tar everyone in Texas with the same brush. It's as stupid as you claim Texans are. But don't worry, I don't expect you to admit your mistake. Your arrogance and closed mind have already displayed themselves admirably.

[Darth Rotor]

You read nothing else that Vortigern or I wrote, did you?

I can quote statistics too: 25% of adult San Antonians are functionally illiterate. 33% of high-school freshmen drop out before graduation. The number of births to unmarried teen mothers is one of the highest in the country. But I wonder if any of that could be due to cultural and economic factors, instead of stupidity? I wonder if there are any individuals or organizations working to help people who fit into those percentages? I wonder if there are any other areas of the U.S., or of the world, where people struggle with education?

If you suffer a traumatic injury, your bad luck may be offset if you have the good luck to do so in Houston, location of Ben Taub Hospital, one of the nation's best trauma centers. If you suffer catastrophic burns, you may well be airlifted to Brooke Army Medical Center at Fort Sam Houston in San Antonio - whether you are military or civilian. The surgeon who removed my husband's kidney receives referrals from across the U.S.

Do some research before you shoot off your mouth, and don't tar everyone in Texas with the same brush. It's as stupid as you claim Texans are. But don't worry, I don't expect you to admit your mistake. Your arrogance and closed mind have already displayed themselves admirably.

Shall we discuss MD Anderson cancer treatment center? Two people in my office have been there, and remain alive today, cancer survivors. Yay Houston!

[rwguinn]

Shall we discuss MD Anderson cancer treatment center? Two people in my office have been there, and remain alive today, cancer survivors. Yay Houston!
And when I finally give in and get the knee replacement, I want somebody associated with the Baylor Orthopedic bunch doing it...

[Elizabeth I]

yes i did.
however, with the numerous threads about rick perry, and the fact that executions happen regularly, and having met many texan rednecks tin alberta's oil industry, i don't have much of a positive exposure to texan culture.
sorry, but that is the 'image from afar'.
i'm pleased when ever i see something that rattles the paradigm.
no offense is intended to more enlightened texans.

Are you really ignorant - and prejudiced - enough to judge a whole state with a population of nearly 25 million by a few people you've met who work in the oil patch? I didn't expect that of anyone (well, hardly anyone) here at JREF.

Well, let me see. You live in Canada, don't you, eh? I guess everyone up there lives in igloos and spends the entire year snowshoeing around the mountains. Everybody is either a lumberjack, or a fur trapper, eh? And has a beard? Even the women, eh? You all spend your time fighting with the Quebecois separatists, don't you? Except of course the Quebecois separatists, who spend all their time fighting with everybody else, eh? And we all know that everyone who lives in Quebec is a separatist. Everybody calls everyone else "hoser" all the time, eh?

Do you think that sounds silly? Sorry, but it's what I've learned from watching Canadian television comedians and movies that take place in Canada. No offense to more enlightened Canadians, of course.

[bikerdruid]

Are you really ignorant - and prejudiced - enough to judge a whole state with a population of nearly 25 million by a few people you've met who work in the oil patch? I didn't expect that of anyone (well, hardly anyone) here at JREF.

Well, let me see. You live in Canada, don't you, eh? I guess everyone up there lives in igloos and spends the entire year snowshoeing around the mountains. Everybody is either a lumberjack, or a fur trapper, eh? And has a beard? Even the women, eh? You all spend your time fighting with the Quebecois separatists, don't you? Except of course the Quebecois separatists, who spend all their time fighting with everybody else, eh? And we all know that everyone who lives in Quebec is a separatist. Everybody calls everyone else "hoser" all the time, eh?

Do you think that sounds silly? Sorry, but it's what I've learned from watching movies that take place in Canada and Canadian television comedians. No offense to more enlightened Canadians, of course.

plain and simple.
someone elected rick perry.
someone keeps the executioners in texas busy.
sorry, but there must be a majority that see that as proper.

......actually, i know many 'lumberjacks and trappers' and the oil patch is the predominant industry in alberta.
i have met many texans...all rednecks.
......i have met more quebecois separatists than i have met federalists.
......and we have eight months of winter where i live.
.....your point?

please pardon the fact that i saw this as a good news thread.

[Elizabeth I]

plain and simple.
someone elected rick perry.
someone keeps the executioners in texas busy.
sorry, but there must be a majority that see that as proper.

......actually, i know many 'lumberjacks and trappers' and the oil patch is the predominant industry in alberta.
i have met many texans...all rednecks.
......i have met more quebecois separatists than i have met federalists.
......and we have eight months of winter where i live.
.....your point?

please pardon the fact that i saw this as a good news thread.
You and many others seem to take the stance that this is good news because it shows that not everyone in Texas is descended from the Kallikaks, although of course you think most of the population is. Thanks, we don't need your backhanded compliments.

I'm tired of dealing with close-minded people who refuse to even consider facts that contradict their stereotypical view of an entire enormous region of an enormous country. Just stay where you are, thanks. We can do without you.

Bye. Outathisthread.

[bikerdruid]

You and many others seem to take the stance that this is good news because it shows that not everyone in Texas is descended from the Kallikaks, although of course you think most of the population is. Thanks, we don't need your backhanded compliments.

I'm tired of dealing with close-minded people who refuse to even consider facts that contradict their stereotypical view of an entire enormous region of an enormous country. Just stay where you are, thanks. We can do without you.

Bye. Outathisthread.

wow.
so who do you suppose elected rick perry?

[RandFan]

Are you really ignorant - and prejudiced - enough to judge a whole state with a population of nearly 25 million by a few people you've met who work in the oil patch? I didn't expect that of anyone (well, hardly anyone) here at JREF.

Well, let me see. You live in Canada, don't you, eh? I guess everyone up there lives in igloos and spends the entire year snowshoeing around the mountains. Everybody is either a lumberjack, or a fur trapper, eh? And has a beard? Even the women, eh? You all spend your time fighting with the Quebecois separatists, don't you? Except of course the Quebecois separatists, who spend all their time fighting with everybody else, eh? And we all know that everyone who lives in Quebec is a separatist. Everybody calls everyone else "hoser" all the time, eh?

Do you think that sounds silly? Sorry, but it's what I've learned from watching Canadian television comedians and movies that take place in Canada. No offense to more enlightened Canadians, of course.Well, to be fair to Canadians many have indoor plunbing and electricity and some have learned how to pronounce the letter "o" (from Canadian Bacon).

[RandFan]

wow.
so who do you suppose elected rick perry?So an entire citizenry can be dismissed?

[bikerdruid]

Well, to be fair to Canadians many have indoor plunbing and electricity and some have learned how to pronounce the letter "o" (from Canadian Bacon).

i do not have indoor plumbing.
i live with solar power and wood heat.
and i am canadian.

[Vortigern99]

This is wonderful news. Because of their size and population Texas often influences the contents of text books for the entire rest of the country. This is a great turnaround and I hope it continues in the future.

Well said.

ETA: To everyone else, may I suggest we stay on topic?

[bikerdruid]

So an entire citizenry can be dismissed?

huh?
my point remains that there must be a large number of people in texas that have drakonian attitudes, else there would not be weekly executions and rick perry would not be governor.
liz can get as huffy as she wishes, but christian redneck texans must be more common that she wants to admit.

[Vortigern99]

Depends on how you choose to define "redneck", I guess, but yes, the majority population of this state is conservative Christians, as evinced by "our" elected representatives.

[RandFan]

huh?Huh?

my point remains that there must be a large number of people in texas that have drakonian attitudes...And most native Americans live in squalor and poverty. And?

Honestly I have no idea what what we are to think or do about your proposition. Do we hate all texans? Do we judge them immoral or evil? Do we make any attempt to view all this through the lens of social dynamics?

Plain and simple it looks like useless bigotry.

[bikerdruid]

Depends on how you choose to define "redneck", I guess, but yes, the majority population of this state is conservative Christians, as evinced by "our" elected representatives.
thankyou.
i was starting to think i was in the twilight zone.:)

[bikerdruid]

Huh?

And most native Americans live in squalor and poverty. And?



dude....most reservations are like third world colonies in north america.
i entered this thread by saying that the discardng of creation science by texan educators was a good thing, to be celebrated.
where in hell do you see that as 'hating all texans'?

texas is a stronghold of conservative christian thought.
are you going to argue that it is not?

[RandFan]

dude....most reservations are like third world colonies in north america.And? For goodness sakes, do you only state premises or do you ever find a conclusion?

i entered this thread by saying that the discardng of creation science by texan educators was a good thing, to be celebrated.
where in hell do you see that as 'hating all texans'?
In nearly everyone of your posts.

texas is a stronghold of conservative christian thought.
are you going to argue that it is not?No, AND? For crying in the dark, can you get some place?

How are you different than the racist Magz who likes to constantly state that blacks have high illiteracy and illegitimacy rates?

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=7399302#post7399302

[RandFan]

thankyou.
i was starting to think i was in the twilight zone.:)I'm beginning to think that Magz isn't the only bigot on JREF.

[bikerdruid]

And? For goodness sakes, do you only state premises or do you ever find a conclusion?

In nearly everyone of your posts.

No, AND? For crying in the dark, can you get some place?

How are you different than the racist Magz who likes to constantly state that blacks have high illiteracy and illegitimacy rates?

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=7399302#post7399302

wow.
mental masturbation is not my thing....carry on.

[bikerdruid]

i believe that this thread is reporting good news for the people of texas.
to all who see this as an insult to texans, i am sorry for your mis-perception.
that is all......:)

[Vortigern99]

Except for Bikerdruid's first "scary thought" post, to my mind his posts on this topic have been fair and reasoned. He admits his exposure to our culture and people is limited:

yes i did.
however, with the numerous threads about rick perry, and the fact that executions happen regularly, and having met many texan rednecks tin alberta's oil industry, i don't have much of a positive exposure to texan culture.
sorry, but that is the 'image from afar'.
i'm pleased when ever i see something that rattles the paradigm.
no offense is intended to more enlightened texans.

And admittedly, though I tend to have a kneejerk reaction to people expressing contempt for Texas conservatism and "redneck" culture, the greater percentage of the population of this state is in its many hundreds of small towns, which almost by definition are comprised of fundamentalists.

My main point has been that that's not all the state is comprised of. We also have masses of the non-religious, and even our numerous religious people can be tolerant, open-minded and kind-hearted, believe it or not.

[RandFan]

wow.
mental masturbation is not my thing....carry on.I think you should look in the mirror. Then again, I suspect the truth is that you've finally seen the light and now need a convenient side step. I think others need to decide if it was well played or not.

[RandFan]

i believe that this thread is reporting good news for the people of texas.
to all who see this as an insult to texans, i am sorry for your mis-perception.
that is all......:)Backhanded compliments are hardly misperceived as insults.

Hi John, you know for an Irishman you don't drink that much.

[ApolloGnomon]

BTW, 1 in 3 Texans cannot read this sentence or comprehend the map depicted in the following link:

http://www-tcall.tamu.edu/docs/09illitmap.html


link = "Percentage by County of Illiterate Adult Texans"

Gosh, do ya s'pose they tested in a manner that accounted for adults who are literate in Spanish but not English?

Yeah. About that.

[bikerdruid]

My main point has been that that's not all the state is comprised of. We also have masses of the non-religious, and even our numerous religious people can be tolerant, open-minded and kind-hearted, believe it or not.

i really am delighted to know this and thanks for giving me the benefit of the doubt.
besides my exposure to texans in alberta oil, there is a hunting lodge next door in the valley, next to our farm......
every year there are hundreds of foreign hunters that come here, the vast majority american.
the type of loud-mouthed, obnoxious, brand-new-cabela's-camo-wearing jerks that come here every year to kill our bears and moose, with little or no respect for life, are very common.
i never included, in my assessment, the asshat texans i have met there, because i just assumed they are just plain schmucks that you folks probably despise too.

that said, i am pleased to know that there is a, hopefully growing, more enlightened texan populace.
i wish some of you folks would come to alberta once in a while and leave the blowhards in texas.:)

[ApolloGnomon]

dude....most reservations are like third world colonies in north america.

I've visited reservations. I would not disagree with this point.

texas is a stronghold of conservative christian thought.
are you going to argue that it is not?

Nor would I disagree with this one, as I've also been to Texas.

[RandFan]

i wish some of you folks would come to alberta once in a while and leave the blowhards in texas.:) You know Bob, for an Indian you don't steal much.

[bikerdruid]

You know Bob, for an Indian you don't steal much.

dude.
i live in northern alberta. i have many native friends. i have taught two generations of native kids. i work with the local beaver indian elders, helping them liason with outside agencies on land claims issues. i am welcomed in their homes and they in mine.
your futile efforts to paint me as a bigot fail miserably.

[ApolloGnomon]

heh heh. you said 'beaver.' heh heh.

[AnnoyingPony]

THIS... IS... SPARTA!!!!!

Actually, it's Texas, but either way it's awesome

[Brainache]

At least everybody seems to agree that this is good news.

It shouldn't be news at all, but the fact that it is news certainly suggests to me that the Texas school board endorsing science education is a rare and remarkable event.

[bikerdruid]

heh heh. you said 'beaver.' heh heh.
:D
actually, it's 'tsani', in their language....

[RandFan]

your futile efforts to paint me as a bigot fail miserably.I don't need to do anything. And trust me on this, you do that just fine on your own. I never said you were bigoted toward Native Americans. Just that your backhanded compliments against Texans are just as bigoted and ugly as those made against Native Americans.

[Toontown]

link = "Percentage by County of Illiterate Adult Texans"

Gosh, do ya s'pose they tested in a manner that accounted for adults who are literate in Spanish but not English?

Yeah. About that.

Yeah. You would think the dept. of education would be smarter than that.

OTOH, perhaps you can see their point. What good is literacy in Spanish if you live in an English-speaking country?

What if a WASP were to invent his own spoken and written language, in which he was fluent, but couldn't read or speak English competently? Should he be considered literate? What kinds of jobs would he be able to handle?

[Mudcat]

Snip lengthy and irate post.I understand how you feel, I lived in Georgia (deep in the Bible Belt) all my life and Georgia (and the people that live there) have a lot of stereotypes. I now live in Kentucky, where there are a lot of stereotypes. I'm fairly certain anywhere else you go, you'll wind up in an area with a lot stereotypes.

So perhaps you should remember that next time you hear a stereotype about Texas and keep your cool. 'kay?

As to the OP, I'm certain there were reasons we're not privy to that they made this ruling. Had the winds been blowing a different direction I'm sure they would have gleefully ruled the opposite.

[Vortigern99]

snip lengthy and irate postI understand how you feel, I lived in Georgia (deep in the Bible Belt) all my life and Georgia (and the people that live there) have a lot of stereotypes. I now live in Kentucky, where there are a lot of stereotypes. I'm fairly certain anywhere else you go, you'll wind up in an area with a lot stereotypes.

So perhaps you should remember that next time you hear a stereotype about Texas and keep your cool. 'kay?

As to the OP, I'm certain there were reasons we're not privy to that they made this ruling. Had the winds been blowing a different direction I'm sure they would have gleefully ruled the opposite.

"Lengthy and irate"? "Keep my cool"? Can you please indicate in the snipped post where I am being "irate" and where you believe I need to "keep my cool"? I think my tone and language is quite reasonable:

You said a mouthful there, Elizabeth! Every time a thread pops up about an event or social phenomenon in Texas -- anywhere on the 'Net, not just here at the JREF -- people who don't live here, and/or have never spent a day in their life here, decide to chime in about how deplorable the culture in Texas is, how stupid its residents are, how backwards its ways.

These are the same people who will argue with you if you talk about the Texas coastline ("Texas does not have beaches or islands!") and who think Texas is a desert full of cacti and tumbleweeds. To them, it seems, our cultural heritage is as barren as they imagine our landscape to be.

I say: Fine. Good. Stay out. Keep to your delusions. The traffic is getting too thick around here anyway.

More on-topic, yes -- this state is full of Christians. Catholics, Lutherans, Baptists, Methodists. I invite one and all to point to a state in the US that is not. Meanwhile, as evinced in the OP, we also have masses of free-thinkers, intellectuals, scientists, skeptics, agnostics, atheists, educators, artists -- in short, people who defy the absurd stereotype forced on us by the rest of the country.

Mudcat, your condescension -- "So perhaps you should remember that next time you hear a stereotype about Texas and keep your cool. 'kay?" is unnecessary and unwelcome. My task here is to explain to those who do not have any way of knowing otherwise, such as Bikerdruid with whom I've so far had a pleasant exchange of information, that Texas is much more than it may seem to outsiders. Why you expect me to ignore inaccurate stereotypes is a mystery for the ages.

[pierce]

Saw this article on NCSE. "Victory for evolution in Texas" - "The Texas Board of Education has unanimously come down on the side of evolution. In an 8-0 vote..."

This is my first post so I'm not allowed to paste links yet.

So copy/paste this in your URL bar:
ncse.com/news/2011/07/victory-evolution-texas-006802

Yay!

Pierce

[Ausmerican]

www.ncse.com/news/2011/07/victory-evolution-texas-006802

You're welcome.
And welcome to the forum.

[WildCat]

No doubt because Don McLeroy is now out of the picture, he's possibly the dumbest guy in Texas.

[AdMan]

Yes, yay Texas (and hook 'em horns!).

There is already another thread about this:

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=214891

[Jekyll's Guest]

Of course to get that decision, Texas had to have a powerful enough fairytale lobby in order to make in necessary...

It's like cheering Alabama for recognizing gravity.

[Ausmerican]

Of course to get that decision, Texas had to have a powerful enough fairytale lobby in order to make in necessary...

It's like cheering Alabama for recognizing gravity.

Alabama finally recognized gravity?!
Well let's hear it for Bama then....ohh, I see what you did.

[Jekyll's Guest]

Alabama finally recognized gravity?!

The gavel struck and all the judges fell 20 feet to the floor.

[Travis]

Well Alabama did once refuse to acknowledge π as anything other than the whole number 3.



Well not really. But would you put it past them? ;)

[Ausmerican]

Well Alabama did once refuse to acknowledge π as anything other than the whole number 3.



Well not really. But would you put it past them? ;)

Georgia still refuses to acknowledge any pi other than peach.

[summand]

Evolution vs. Creationism: 14 : 0
http://ncse.com/news/2011/07/victory-evolution-texas-006802

[leftysergeant]

Maybe the text book publishers decided that they were not making enough money to resist a boycott from other states if they tailored their product to cater for the looney tunes in Texas.

[Ladewig]

huh?
my point remains that there must be a large number of people in Texas that have draconian attitudes, else there would not be weekly executions and Rick Perry would not be governor.

Because legislature has finally changed the law to allow "life without parole" the number of executions has been dropping.


As for Governor Perry, in the 2006 election, he won with less than a majority of the votes cast. In a six-way race, he garnered less than 40% of the votes (1,714,618 votes (which is not a large number in a state with 25 million residents).

The last election was 2,733,784 to 2,102,606, in Perry's favor. If only 316,000 people voted the other way, Perry would have lost. Claiming that Perry (a jackass pandering to the religious right) is evidence that Texans are a draconian people is the height of absurdity.

Texas is a stronghold of conservative christian thought.
are you going to argue that it is not?

Houston elected a lesbian mayor. Houston police officers for the past 10 years have been allowed to march in Houston's Gay Pride Parade in uniform. There are still a lot of cities in the U.S. where that is not permitted.

My point is that Texas is not as homogeneous as you think.

[Vortigern99]

Georgia still refuses to acknowledge any pi other than peach.

"No, son -- pi are round. Cornbread are square!"

[Vortigern99]

Because legislature has finally changed the law to allow "life without parole" the number of executions has been dropping.


As for Governor Perry, in the 2006 election, he won with less than a majority of the votes cast. In a six-way race, he garnered less than 40% of the votes (1,714,618 votes (which is not a large number in a state with 25 million residents).

The last election was 2,733,784 to 2,102,606, in Perry's favor. If only 316,000 people voted the other way, Perry would have lost. Claiming that Perry (a jackass pandering to the religious right) is evidence that Texans are a draconian people is the height of absurdity.



Houston elected a lesbian mayor. Houston police officers for the past 10 years have been allowed to march in Houston's Gay Pride Parade in uniform. There are still a lot of cities in the U.S. where that is not permitted.

My point is that Texas is not as homogeneous as you think.

Nominated!

[Ladewig]

Look at it this way: If you need heart surgery, would you want a surgeon who was taught creationist garbage in school to be digging around in your chest cavity?

I cannot understand the amount of willful ignorance that goes into believing that the Earth is 6000 years old. It is beyond nutty. I certainly don't want it taught outside of religion classes.

That being said, in choosing a heart surgeon, I really don't care if he was or wasn't taught creationism in high school. In fact, it is possible for a practicing creationist to be an excellent heart surgeon. I'm pretty much only going to look at his experience and success rate in deciding if he is qualified enough to operate on me.
.....................

Speaking of heart surgery, Texas was the site of a number of firsts in the field of heart surgery and two of the field's greatest pioneers (Denton Cooley and Michael DeBakey) practiced in Houston. In fact, the city is still considered to a world-class medical community.

[Jack Astor]

I graduated from Texas Tech, so pardon any bad grammar.

In the crazy race, I'd say Arizona and Texas are neck and neck first place; with the other usual suspects (every Southern state) trailing closely behind. Oklahoma gets honorable mention, seeing how they made sure those hordes of Muslims taking over the place don't impose Sharia law (the only reason Texas doesn't drop off into the Gulf of Mexico, is because Oklahoma sucks).

I'm from Lubbock, and my family still lives there. Out there in West Texas, they think Rick Perry is a bit too much of a liberal do-gooder. I grew up learning Jesus loves you, and he's gonna send me to the place where the feller with the horns and pitchfork conducts his business -- and sex is vulgar, sinful, nasty, evil; and should be only be saved for the one you love. There's a reason why we're all nuts.

Fortunately, there are some pockets of enlightenment in Texas.

[Ladewig]

My point is that Texas is not as homogeneous as you think.

In fact, I consider Texas to be one of the five least homogeneous states in the Union.


......................
Yes. I admit I have become one of those people who quotes his own posts. Feel free to mock me mercilessly.

[Halfcentaur]

Despised Okie, here. :mad:

Even I'm smart enough to know you don't mess with Texas. Or Oklahoma. 'Cuz we're OK.

Damn skippy. *rolls up shirt sleeves*

Oklahoma just had a similar victory several months back, thanks in no small part to aid from the Clergy Letter Project. Check out the "criticism" section for a good chuckle.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clergy_Letter_Project

They're getting desperate.

[Ausmerican]

I graduated from Texas Tech, so pardon any bad grammar.

In the crazy race, I'd say Arizona and Texas are neck and neck first place; with the other usual suspects (every Southern state) trailing closely behind. .

Now you just hold on a minute!

As a resident of Arizona I have to protest and stick for where I live. Given our much smaller size and miniscule population in comparison to Texas we have you beat silly in the crazy stakes! And you Texans damn well know it!

You have the entire city of Houston to hold up as a beacon of sanity, you know what we have? Tucson. Now Joe Arpaio may not quite match Perry on a national lunacy level but his longevity speaks volumes to the pure river of redneck that runs through this state.

Texan lunacy in the main is confined to thinking that they are big.

[Darth Rotor]

wow.
so who do you suppose elected rick perry?

Tell ya what, druid, look up the 2006 election results, and the previous campaign, and figure out who did.

The election for Governor of Texas.

Educate yourself, lad, and put the E into JREF your own self.

Darth Out

[bikerdruid]

Tell ya what, druid, look up the 2006 election results, and the previous campaign, and figure out who did.

The election for Governor of Texas.

Educate yourself, lad, and put the E into JREF your own self.

Darth Out

darth, dude....it was a rhetorical question, but thanks.:)

[Dr. Keith]

Maybe the text book publishers decided that they were not making enough money to resist a boycott from other states if they tailored their product to cater for the looney tunes in Texas.

Not to jump on Lefty, since this is a common refrain, but from publishers I've talked to this is not much of an issue anymore. Apparently the printing process is nimble enough for them to have several versions of a text without much added cost and they have been doing so for some time. So, while this was a good way to get outsiders interested in Texas's education board struggles, it is less of an issue than it used to be.

[AdMan]

Not to jump on Lefty, since this is a common refrain, but from publishers I've talked to this is not much of an issue anymore. Apparently the printing process is nimble enough for them to have several versions of a text without much added cost and they have been doing so for some time. So, while this was a good way to get outsiders interested in Texas's education board struggles, it is less of an issue than it used to be.


Interesting--and good to hear.

[Philosaur]

So perhaps you should remember that next time you hear a stereotype about Texas and keep your cool. 'kay?


"Lengthy and irate"? "Keep my cool"? Can you please indicate in the snipped post where I am being "irate" and where you believe I need to "keep my cool"? I think my tone and language is quite reasonable:


Vortigern, Mudcat's response embodies a favorite tactic on this and other forums.


Bob: I think vanilla ice cream is best.

Alice: Well, I enjoy chocolate ice cream more.

Bob: WHOA! Dial it down a notch, Alice! What's with all the histrionics?! You know, you should really try to stay rational and civil, and not fly off the handle. It really hurts your credibility and marks you as an ignorant fool. Also, if you're going to disagree with someone, you could try to be a little nicer.

Alice: All I said was that I prefer chocolate. I'm merely expressing my opinion.

Bob: Geez, Alice! I'm about two seconds from reporting you for harassment. Your ad homs are not appreciated. Furthermore, you are equivocating on the word "prefer", and making a blatant appeal to authority with the "I said" crap.

[Apathia]

I tried pleasing someone once, and then everyone expected me to do the same for them.

I think you ought to admit that the flow of idiocy from Texas has surpassed the flow of idiocy from the rest of the United States (combined) for the past several years. It is possible that I missed a few glimmers of light that may have escaped from the galaxy-sucking black hole of willful ignorance that is Texas. If so, I apologize to those lonely few who have, so far, escaped obliteration.

Take it back, Complexity! Take it back.
Texas doesn't have as many bat-crazy legislators as Arizona! :wackygoofy:

[Apathia]

Now you just hold on a minute!

As a resident of Arizona I have to protest and stick for where I live. Given our much smaller size and miniscule population in comparison to Texas we have you beat silly in the crazy stakes! And you Texans damn well know it!

You have the entire city of Houston to hold up as a beacon of sanity, you know what we have? Tucson. Now Joe Arpaio may not quite match Perry on a national lunacy level but his longevity speaks volumes to the pure river of redneck that runs through this state.

Texan lunacy in the main is confined to thinking that they are big.

Oops! You beat me to the Arizona Bashing!

[RandFan]

Not to jump on Lefty, since this is a common refrain, but from publishers I've talked to this is not much of an issue anymore. Apparently the printing process is nimble enough for them to have several versions of a text without much added cost and they have been doing so for some time. So, while this was a good way to get outsiders interested in Texas's education board struggles, it is less of an issue than it used to be.I was the manager for a print production department. I left in 1998 after 7 years. At the time they could do this but it was either expensive or limited to certain types of work. Make-ready is very expensive even if the printing source (plate or other medium) can be altered digitally. I'd be interested to know how they solved this. Part of my job was to get costs down and have smaller runs. At the time a near impossible task.

[Vortigern99]

Vortigern, Mudcat's response embodies a favorite tactic on this and other forums.

Right, gotcha, thanks. :cool:

Mudcat essentially told me: "I understand how you feel, we have stereotypes where I live, so stop getting angry at people for saying you have stereotypes where you live!" :eek: :confused: :boggled:

[Philosaur]

Right, gotcha, thanks. :cool:

Mudcat essentially told me: "I understand how you feel, we have stereotypes where I live, so stop getting angry at people for saying you have stereotypes where you live!" :eek: :confused: :boggled:

To be clear: I know I'm not telling you anything you didn't already know. I was merely pointing out something I've seen over and over on this forum.

Maybe I'm just not understanding the cool face? :cool:

[Vortigern99]

Cool face means to me "cool, thanks, you rock" in an unironic gesture of gratitude/appreciation. :cool:

[Dr. Keith]

I was the manager for a print production department. I left in 1998 after 7 years. At the time they could do this but it was either expensive or limited to certain types of work. Make-ready is very expensive even if the printing source (plate or other medium) can be altered digitally. I'd be interested to know how they solved this. Part of my job was to get costs down and have smaller runs. At the time a near impossible task.

I really don't know, it was several years ago when I was discussing this with someone in the business, but after you left. They just assured me that they weren't trying to sell the same books in California and New York as they sold in Texas.

I have noticed that many of my kids' text books are labelled "Texas Edition" or have little outlines of the state printed on their cover.

[Dr. Keith]

Cool face means to me "cool, thanks, you rock" in an unironic gesture of gratitude/appreciation. :cool:

As opposed to the completely ironic: cool story, bro.

[cwalner]

I really don't know, it was several years ago when I was discussing this with someone in the business, but after you left. They just assured me that they weren't trying to sell the same books in California and New York as they sold in Texas.

I have noticed that many of my kids' text books are labelled "Texas Edition" or have little outlines of the state printed on their cover.

Neat, so it sounds like like the industry has managed to reduce costs just enough so that Texas' size does not influence the rest of the country.

I am guessing that Texas is big enough so that a special run just for Texas is economically feasible, but the general run goes everywhere else.

[arthwollipot]

Yes. I admit I have become one of those people who quotes his own posts. Feel free to mock me mercilessly.http://bit.ly/V2yp