By the balls....

[zenith-nadir]

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20040326/capt.caps10103261542.gas_prices_caps101.jpg




I don't hate Arabs, two of my favorite musicians are Khaled and Youssou n'Dour, I go to palestinian-owned Aidia's to get a tastey falafel once a week. So make no mistake that this is not an indictment of all Arabs or Islam. The context of my wrath is directed to the leaders of Algeria, Indonesia, Iran, Kuwait, Libya, Nigeria, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, United Arab Emirates, and Venezuela. Namely the members of OPEC.

First off this entire peversion of Islam which has manifested itself into 9-11, suicide bombers, Bali, etc, all has to do with Saudi Arabia's dominant faith Wahhabism. Wahhabism introduced jihad and holy war to the west. Make no mistake about it.

Algeria, fundamentalist islam and genocide... Indonesia, "jews control the world".... Iran, 'nuff said...Kuwait, didn't we save their butts?....Libya...first graduate of Bush's Scared Straight program... Nigeria, no I don't need your 13 million and stop emailing me....Qatar, ok so far they have been cool....Saudi Arabia, F-you....United Arab Emirates, the Tattoine space port of the Arab world and Venezuela, hottest babes in South America but Chavez? no thanks.

And now these same folks, (OPEC), have us by the balls when it comes to our petroleum supply? Jesus H. Tapdancing Christ, WTF is up with that? To hell with Prince Sultan air base and use the money to kickstart the hydrogen supply infrastructure already!

[Charlie Monoxide]

Until you break the "crack habit" of gasoline, you will be beholden to the crack dealers.

I live in Texas, and I'm always amazed at the slowdowns in traffic on the freeways. Just a cursory glance shows many big custom trucks (non-commercial), SUV's, and Hummers, all moving at 5 mph with just the driver on board.

Charlie (I walk to work and cross over the above mentioned freeway) Monoxide

[zenith-nadir]

Originally posted by Charlie Monoxide
Until you break the "crack habit" of gasoline, you will be beholden to the crack dealers.I live in Texas, and I'm always amazed at the slowdowns in traffic on the freeways. Just a cursory glance shows many big custom trucks (non-commercial), SUV's, and Hummers, all moving at 5 mph with just the driver on board.Charlie (I walk to work and cross over the above mentioned freeway) Monoxide SUVs are the Pinto of the 21st century...you can quote me. ;)

[Agammamon]

I don't know, those prices still look reasonable to me. When they get up into the 4+ dollars a gallon prices that are the norm in Europe, that's when I might start screaming.

And anyway, if the gas prices are too high for you the don't buy the stuff. Get a bike. the last time I checked a supplier didn't have to sell his stuff cheap. Unless it's milk.

[Chaos]

These gas prices are dollar per gallon, right?

Gas prices are 1.15-1.25 Euro per litre here, that´s roughly 5.00 to 5.50 per gallon.

You don´t know what you are complaining about. Buy a car that consumes less - 50-60 miles per gallon IS possible. SUVs do how much? 15-20 mpg?



By the way, what´s a Pinto?

[rikzilla]

Originally posted by Chaos
These gas prices are dollar per gallon, right?

Gas prices are 1.15-1.25 Euro per litre here, that´s roughly 5.00 to 5.50 per gallon.

You don´t know what you are complaining about. Buy a car that consumes less - 50-60 miles per gallon IS possible. SUVs do how much? 15-20 mpg?



By the way, what´s a Pinto?

You must be in the UK. I was driving through Wales a couple years ago and the fuel prices were very near $5 then.

Oh, and Pinto?? I don't know why Z-N would invoke that name in the same breath with an SUV. The Pinto was a sub-compact car and boasted very high gas mileage. It's fatal flaw was the location of the fuel tank. Rear-end a Pinto at more than 20mph and the whole thing explodes in flames!

-z

[nineinchnails_999]

I love my bike. When I get older I plan on using my bike instead of a car whenever possible. At the very least I'll use mass transportation. For the situations when a car is definately needed, I'll rely on my trusty Volvo. I love those things.

As far as gas prices, yea they suck, but certainly not outrageous. Not yet anyway. Its hard for me sometimes being in school and not having a lot of money. Luckily Indiana is still pretty low for gas prices(around $1.60-$1.75 last time I checked). Try paying for gas when all you have is a 10 hour a week job that pays $5.75 an hour. Yea sure you can put gas in the car, but what else can you do? Not much.

[Cecil]

Prices are about 85 cents/ litre canadian here (about 2.50 USD/gallon), though if I go across the border I can get it for .479 USD/litre ($1.81/gallon).

And why are full serve prices $0.70/gallon more? What do you get for that, coffee and a newspaper while your car is being waxed? Full serve here costs 2 or 3 cents per litre.

[zenith-nadir]

Originally posted by rikzilla
Oh, and Pinto?? I don't know why Z-N would invoke that name in the same breath with an SUV. -z Pinto were popular until the fatal flaw was discovered. Now we have popular 6000 pound gas-guzzling SUV's which are 60 times more likely to roll over in a crash! (see: Ford Explorer). Both popular vehicles, both fatally flawed. ;)

[phildonnia]

But I was told that the war in Iraq was all about oil, and we were going to basically plunder the place. Is that still the plan?

[zenith-nadir]

Originally posted by phildonnia
But I was told that the war in Iraq was all about oil, and we were going to basically plunder the place. Is that still the plan? It was all about oil (http://www.washtimes.com/op-ed/20040321-101405-2593r.htm) but not for the reasons you thought....

[Grammatron]

Originally posted by zenith-nadir
Pinto were popular until the fatal flaw was discovered. Now we have popular 6000 pound gas-guzzling SUV's which are 60 times more likely to roll over in a crash! (see: Ford Explorer). Both popular vehicles, both fatally flawed. ;)

Not all SUVs are equally likely to rollover nor are they all 6000 pounds nor are they all gas guzzling. I think SUVs got such a bad rep because they get off the hook on the guzzler tax. If you look at sport cars and luxury cars they tend to eat just as much gas and are on the heavy side as well but no one seems to complain about them, why is that?

PS I don't own an SUV and don't plan to own one.

[Chaos]

Originally posted by rikzilla


You must be in the UK. I was driving through Wales a couple years ago and the fuel prices were very near $5 then.

Oh, and Pinto?? I don't know why Z-N would invoke that name in the same breath with an SUV. The Pinto was a sub-compact car and boasted very high gas mileage. It's fatal flaw was the location of the fuel tank. Rear-end a Pinto at more than 20mph and the whole thing explodes in flames!

-z

No, I´m in Germany. (The UK doesn´t have the Euro yet, by the way)

[zenith-nadir]

Originally posted by Grammatron
Not all SUVs are equally likely to rollover nor are they all 6000 pounds nor are they all gas guzzling. I think SUVs got such a bad rep because they get off the hook on the guzzler tax. If you look at sport cars and luxury cars they tend to eat just as much gas and are on the heavy side as well but no one seems to complain about them, why is that?PS I don't own an SUV and don't plan to own one. Check this out Grammatron, SUVs - Perception vs reality - PBS Special (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/rollover/unsafe/theme.html).

[Hutch]

...United Arab Emirates, the Tattoine space port of the Arab world....

Having lived in Abu Dhabi for 4 years and a frequent commuter to Dubai, I had to chuckle at that. The UAE is a quite a bit more "cosmopolitan" than that, but with 85% of it's population foreign guest workers, it's sometimes hard to spot the natives...but given the dough they have stuck into the infrastructure there, things are slightly nicer than Tattonie, I assure you (Google Burj Al Arab sometime) :D ;)

Oh, and when I got there, the price of gasoline was 35 dirhams a gallon (about .99 cents) and in 2002 it went all the way up to $1.11 a gallon. National Oil Company, of course. :p

[Grammatron]

Originally posted by zenith-nadir
Check this out Grammatron, SUVs - Perception vs reality - PBS Special (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/rollover/unsafe/theme.html).

I am well aware of all the info but most of the new SUVs on the road today are significantly different. Of course all the old SUVs still pose the same risk.

[zenith-nadir]

Originally posted by Hutch
(Google Burj Al Arab sometime) :D ;) I saw a "Frontiers Of Construction" on the building of the Burj Al Arab. Amazing structure, nothing like it in the world.

http://images.travelnow.com/hotelimages/s/049000/049282E.jpg

[Grammatron]

Originally posted by zenith-nadir
I saw a "Frontiers Of Construction" on the building of the Burj Al Arab. Amazing structure, nothing like it in the world.

That is rather amazing. What is this building used for?

[Jocko]

Originally posted by Cecil

And why are full serve prices $0.70/gallon more? What do you get for that, coffee and a newspaper while your car is being waxed? Full serve here costs 2 or 3 cents per litre.

Never mind that, when was the last time you even HAD a full service option? I don't think I've seen that grand old institution in over 10 years.

[zenith-nadir]

Originally posted by Grammatron
I am well aware of all the info but most of the new SUVs on the road today are significantly different. Of course all the old SUVs still pose the same risk. I am not on a anti-SUV-kick. I just think they are ridiculous, 90% of the people who buy them will never go off road, so why pay money for that capability? I'll take an Audi Allroad or Volvo XC70 if I need to haul the kids and feel the need to pay as much as a luxury SUV. Safer for the family. ;)

[Grammatron]

Originally posted by zenith-nadir
I am not on a anti-SUV-kick. I just think they are ridiculous, 90% of the people who buy them will never go off road, so why pay money for that capability? I'll take an Audi Allroad or Volvo XC70 if I need to haul the kids and feel the need to pay as much as a luxury SUV. Safer for the family. ;)

I think it's all part American culture where you get what you want rather than what you need :)

[zenith-nadir]

Originally posted by Grammatron
That is rather amazing. What is this building used for? It's a hotel.

http://www.g-t-n.de/Graphics/Specials/burjalarab/pic_s9.jpg http://www.g-t-n.de/Graphics/Specials/burjalarab/pic_s12.jpg http://www.g-t-n.de/Graphics/Specials/burjalarab/spa_d3.jpg

[Hutch]

Originally posted by Grammatron


That is rather amazing. What is this building used for?

It's one of the top resort hotels in the world, Grammatron. Smallest room in the place is about 1600sq ft, and the largest is two full floors and will set you back about $6,800 a night. Obviously not for the Motel 6 type like me.

Saw it in person (never inside it) many times and it is even more impressive than Z-N's pictures show. Next time you have a couple of thousand bucks burning a hole in your pocket, you and the missus can take a day or two vacation there. ;)

[Grammatron]

Originally posted by Hutch


It's one of the top resort hotels in the world, Grammatron. Smallest room in the place is about 1600sq ft, and the largest is two full floors and will set you back about $6,800 a night. Obviously not for the Motel 6 type like me.

Saw it in person (never inside it) many times and it is even more impressive than Z-N's pictures show. Next time you have a couple of thousand bucks burning a hole in your pocket, you and the missus can take a day or two vacation there. ;)

That sounds great and all but I doubt I would go all the way there for a vacation :)

[WildCat]

Originally posted by zenith-nadir
I am not on a anti-SUV-kick. I just think they are ridiculous, 90% of the people who buy them will never go off road, so why pay money for that capability? I'll take an Audi Allroad or Volvo XC70 if I need to haul the kids and feel the need to pay as much as a luxury SUV. Safer for the family. ;)
There's other reasons to own one. I carry all my tools in my Jeep Grand Cherokee, and the bars on top are good for hauling the occasional doors, drywall, or plywood I need at work and the big truck is elsewhere. I can also tow 6500 lbs. if need be. And 4WD is handy when in muddy construction sites, or getting out of a plowed-in parking spot w/o spending an hour shoveling and then saving the spot w/ old furniture (a time-honored but trashy Chicago tradition).

But if Charlie monoxide sees me stuck in traffic I'm sure he'd assume there's no reason for me to have it since he couldn't see the tools in the back. :p

A pickup truck isn't an option here in Chicago, since I park on the street and trucks (anything w/ a B plate) aren't allowed to park overnight on the streets here.

BTW, it weighs 4200 lbs, not 6000! Gas mileage is horrendous in city traffic, but obviously a bike or a bus is not an option for me.

Oh yeah, this thread was about gas prices. The oil supply has little to do w/ gas prices right now, it's refinery capacity. In the US, nearly every state (and many cities) demand their own custom blend of gasoline in the summer. Refineries can't just churn out the same gas for everyone in huge lots, instead have to churn out many small lots. Don't blame OPEC for this, blame your local politicians and the EPA.

I don't see why the EPA can't settle on one or a few blends of gasoline in this country. If they did prices would be much lower and more stable season to season.

[Luke T.]

Originally posted by Jocko


Never mind that, when was the last time you even HAD a full service option? I don't think I've seen that grand old institution in over 10 years.

In Oregon and New Jersey you have no choice. You can't pump your own gas. State law.

[Luke T.]

Originally posted by Charlie Monoxide
Until you break the "crack habit" of gasoline, you will be beholden to the crack dealers.

Charlie (I walk to work and cross over the above mentioned freeway) Monoxide

My job is 45 miles from my house.

[Grammatron]

Originally posted by Charlie Monoxide
Until you break the "crack habit" of gasoline, you will be beholden to the crack dealers.


And what about heating oil? Delivery trucks? Plastics?

[phildonnia]

Originally posted by Luke T.


In Oregon and New Jersey you have no choice. You can't pump your own gas. State law.

And in Oregon, they will yell at you if you are a stupid California driver who gets out of his car at a gas station.

What's funny is the Oregon drivers who stop in California and sit there waiting at the gas station for something to happen.

[Theodore Kurita]

Well, I guess that means I will be going with a used hybrid car before I go to college. :)


I don't know if you have these over in Europe.

In case your are wondering what hybrid car is. It is a fuel and electric car all in one.

Toyota and Honda are currently making them.

This one is the Toyota Prius:

http://www.hybridcars.com/images/prius_2004.gif


They cost a pretty penny, yet they can get 50 MPG (Miles Per Gallon). :)

Very fuel effecient/environmentally friendly.


Oh, it looks like Hybrid SUV's are coming soon too. :D

http://www.hybridcars.com/

[Luke T.]

Originally posted by Theodore Kurita
Well, I guess that means I will be going with a used hybrid car before I go to college. :)


I don't know if you have these over in Europe.

In case your are wondering what hybrid car is. It is a fuel and electric car all in one.

Toyota and Honda are currently making them.

This one is the Toyota Prius:

http://www.hybridcars.com/images/prius_2004.gif


They cost a pretty penny, yet they can get 50 MPG (Miles Per Gallon). :)

Very fuel effecient/environmentally friendly.


Oh, it looks like Hybrid SUV's are coming soon too. :D

http://www.hybridcars.com/

Since Europe has had gas over 4 or 5 bucks a gallon for quite a while now, I think they are more MPG savvy than the U.S. Clean burning diesels make up about 25 percent of the market, with VW's Lupo getting about 90 MPG.

[Grammatron]

Originally posted by Theodore Kurita
Well, I guess that means I will be going with a used hybrid car before I go to college. :)


I don't know if you have these over in Europe.

In case your are wondering what hybrid car is. It is a fuel and electric car all in one.

Toyota and Honda are currently making them.

This one is the Toyota Prius:

http://www.hybridcars.com/images/prius_2004.gif


They cost a pretty penny, yet they can get 50 MPG (Miles Per Gallon). :)

Very fuel effecient/environmentally friendly.


Oh, it looks like Hybrid SUV's are coming soon too. :D

http://www.hybridcars.com/

When they can make hybrid cars look as good, perform on par and have the same usability as regular cars I would buy one. Until then I'll look to spend my money on something I actually like.

[Grammatron]

Originally posted by Luke T.


Since Europe has had gas over 4 or 5 bucks a gallon for quite a while now, I think they are more MPG savvy than the U.S. Clean burning diesels make up about 25 percent of the market, with VW's Lupo getting about 90 MPG.

Not legal to have those diesel cars in California and according to the recent Car and Driver that is soon to be the case nation-wide.

[Theodore Kurita]

Originally posted by Grammatron


Not legal to have those diesel cars in California and according to the recent Car and Driver that is soon to be the case nation-wide.

Most of that is because of excess pollution that some diesel vehicles cause.

However, I think that Hydrogen or Ethanol based fuels will eventually replace the Fossil Fuel markets within 30 years.

[Grammatron]

Originally posted by Theodore Kurita


Most of that is because of excess pollution that some diesel vehicles cause.

However, I think that Hydrogen or Ethanol based fuels will eventually replace the Fossil Fuel markets within 30 years.

As far as hydrogen goes, I hope you realize that you would still need Fossil Fuels to make it.

[Luke T.]

Originally posted by Grammatron


Not legal to have those diesel cars in California and according to the recent Car and Driver that is soon to be the case nation-wide.

The Lupo (http://www.ecoworld.org/Air/articles/articles2.cfm?TID=169) is a clean burning diesel.


But there is another green car already here, although virtually unheard of in the United States. That car is the Lupo, a small four passenger car produced by Volkswagon that uses a high-technology ultra-clean burning diesel engine and gets 90 MPG. This car was launched throughout Europe in the fall of 1998. Volkswagen pioneered green diesel engines beginning in the early '90s when they introduced "direct injection" technology, in which fuel and air are pumped directly into cylinders. This innovation decreased fuel consumption of the already fuel-efficient diesels by 15%. Volkswagen engineered not only eye-opening fuel economy into their diesels, but also dramatically lowered emissions.

[Grammatron]

Originally posted by Luke T.


The Lupo (http://www.ecoworld.org/Air/articles/articles2.cfm?TID=169) is a clean burning diesel.



Here's the article about diesel engines I was talking about.

http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=4&article_id=7816

The trouble with diesels in the U.S. is at the tailpipe. They can't pass the emissions regs that go into effect in California this year and phase in across the country over the next four years. This may surprise those who've seen or sniffed the exhaust coming out of the latest passenger-car diesels—it looks and smells as clean as that of a gas engine to the naked eye or nose. The diesel combustion process, in which the air-fuel mixture is ignited not by a spark plug but by the high temperature and pressure created by a high compression ratio, is naturally clean in terms of carbon moNOXide, hydrocarbons, and other organic gases, so those standards are easily met. But those high temperatures and pressures result in oxides of nitrogen (NOX) and particulate matter—the soot your Olds diesel belched—that are very difficult to clean up, and the new standards apply equally to all fuels. No more special dispensation for diesel.

The new NOX target is 0.05 gram per mile for the first 50,000 miles of a vehicle's life, which can rise to 0.07 gram at 120,000 miles; the particulate limit is just 0.01 gram per mile for the full 120,000 miles. Last year's limits were higher—1.00 to 1.25 grams per mile of NOX and 0.08 to 0.10 gram per mile of particulates. These regulations are considerably more strict than Europe's most stringent Euro IV standard of 0.40 gram of NOX and 0.04 gram of particulates per mile for diesel cars (Europe sets slightly tougher emissions limits for gasoline engines).

The U.S. emissions limits are measured using a federal test procedure (FTP) driving cycle, known as FTP75, that doesn't involve much hard acceleration, but new tests that require using the vehicle's air conditioner and running at or near foot-to-floorboard conditions are also being phased in. Even though the grams-per-mile limits are relaxed for these tests, diesels are expected to have a tougher time than gas engines in meeting them.

[Regnad Kcin]

Originally posted by zenith-nadir
http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20040326/capt.caps10103261542.gas_prices_caps101.jpgSlightl y off-topic, I always get a kick out of gasoline designations like "Performance Plus" and "High Performance."

Marketing. Gotta love it.

[peptoabysmal]

Originally posted by Regnad Kcin
Slightly off-topic, I always get a kick out of gasoline designations like "Performance Plus" and "High Performance."

Marketing. Gotta love it.

Especialy if you're old enough to remember what octane ratings were in the 60's. You're lucky to find 91 octane nowdays (if you have a performance machine like my trusty old Ducati, you need to get octane booster). 91 used to be "regular". Performance really means anti-dieseling.

I have one of those Dodge HEMI trucks to pull a horse trailor. Thank God I don't have to drive that to work every day. Avg. is about 11.5 mpg and 10 mpg pulling a load. I was kicking myself "should've gotten the diesel...", until I saw that the diesel prices aren't that much better. It costs close to $80 to fill the tank right now where I live.

[epepke]

I do have to point out that a quarter of a century ago in the US, the price of a gallon of gasoline was about the same as a gallon of milk or a pack of cigarettes. Though cigarettes have been inflated due to taxes, check what a gallon of milk costs these days.

Furthermore, even at $2.50 a gallon, the gasoline is still smaller than depreciation for most vehicles, unless you're like me and buy a Neon that hasn't even needed a new clutch plate in more than 200,000 miles.

[Chaos]

Originally posted by Luke T.


Since Europe has had gas over 4 or 5 bucks a gallon for quite a while now, I think they are more MPG savvy than the U.S. Clean burning diesels make up about 25 percent of the market, with VW's Lupo getting about 90 MPG.

I have to correct myself. Gas prices here are 5 to 5.5 Euro per gallon - that´s more like 6$ to 6.75$.

Luckily, we have pretty good public transport here. (And as a student, a free semester ticket is included in the university fees)

[Darat]

Originally posted by zenith-nadir
...snip...

And now these same folks, (OPEC), have us by the balls when it comes to our petroleum supply? Jesus H. Tapdancing Christ, WTF is up with that? To hell with Prince Sultan air base and use the money to kickstart the hydrogen supply infrastructure already!

I thought the USA was all about a market economy? If you don't want to pay their prices just go elsewhere... plus it is their supply not the USA’s, the USA is providing the demand.