Are women socially conditioned to be complainers?

[truethat]

I've started threads like this before. I'm constantly frustrated dealing with women who get very emotional about situations that are sort of over and done with.

I'm not sure how to explain it. Here's an example. My 10 year old son accidentally broke my brand new lap top. He left it on the bed under the covers and the motor burned out. I know he didn't mean it. I know he learned a lesson about being careful but I really didn't get mad because it's over and done with, he didn't mean it and what is flipping out going to solve? That said I'm a very strict parent normally so it's not like I let the kids rule the roost.

In this case my attitude to myself was, "it's over, see if you can fix it and if you can't it's a loss"

I've noticed however that several female friends of mine want to play out say "childhood trauma" or "family trauma" they can't get over something like "My father didn't walk me down the aisle and my wedding was ruined." They'll sit and converse and pat each other on the back, each one cooing supportive phrases. In my mind I'm thinking, "Chick it's over, it happened 10 years ago GET OVER IT" but what I say is the same old cooing as the rest or just keeping silent.

I'm struck by a sort of female cultural hegemony where maybe all of us are sitting there thinking the same thing but no one wants to say anything.

Any thoughts?

[John Jones]

You sure complain a lot.

[Gawdzilla]

You should post that over at the Oprah Winfrey forum. Show them bitches.

[Jekyll's Guest]

A Terminator exists only to kill. You could bury one in cement except for one hand, and due to its 120 year power cell, a century after being entombed it would try to crush the life from you if you brushed past it.

When it comes to holding a grudge, Terminators have nothing on a woman.

[Kopji]

Posting a lot of these are you?

[Jekyll's Guest]

I'm actually very talky for a guy, developed language centers and all that; but sometimes I say to my wife "Babe I love you, but you need to find another woman to talk to. I want to fix the problem, and you want to lament about it."

On average men simply don't need to go over something again and again to get closure. I am no longer on fire, I have closure. I backed over the guy with the knife and he died, I have closure.

[Cavemonster]

This is the kind of question that's incredibly susceptible to confirmation bias.

I do feel there's a distinct difference in the way that women and men I know process negative emotions. But I can't clearly label it, and it's not universal. I highly doubt women complain more, but I wouldn't be surprised if they complained in different ways and about different things. It's very hard to tease out real observations from my own, and I suggest yours too, unconscious biases and expectations.

I'd love to see a study on the subject though. I'm sure they exist, but I'm not sure what terms to search for.

[Hokulele]

I'm constantly frustrated dealing with women who get very emotional about situations that are sort of over and done with.


You are complaining about women who complain?

:D

[Jekyll's Guest]

I highly doubt women complain more

May I ask why?

[JudeBrando]

Almost every time, and I say almost because there must have been a few exceptions, almost every time I walk by a couple of women and only catch a few seconds of their conversation, one is complaining to the other and usually about a man.

[jiggeryqua]

Almost every time, and I say almost because there must have been a few exceptions, almost every time I walk by a couple of women and only catch a few seconds of their conversation, one is complaining to the other and usually about a man.

There's that confirmation bias at work. Actually at least half the time they're talking about shoes.

[Puppycow]

Any thoughts?

I sympathize. :) Sounds like my wife.

This is what John Gray wrote about in Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus. Men (or other women) are just supposed to patiently listen and agree. The complaints are usually something for which there is no solution, so trying to say something constructive or racking your brains for a solution is pointless.

I can't tell you how many times I've wanted to just say "Unless there's something I can do about it, I don't want to hear it."

[Cavemonster]

May I ask why?

Just like the OP, a general sense of my personal experience. As an example, threads on this forum. I don't know the gender of everyone here, but there's at least one new "complaint" thread every day, and I'd say the gender of the poster doesn't tend to be female more than their share of forum traffic.

I used to frequent the forum management threads, where the complainers were almost exclusively posters I knew to have identified themselves as male.

I can say the same thing for workplaces I've been in, groups of friends, all very unscientific and based on memory, so I'm very open to being wrong.

[rofl]

Truethat, if you were not cooing along with them and patting them on the back once in a while they would probably misintepret your coping skills as callousness or coldness. I don't think that your friend know that they can learn the coping skills and strategies that will help them overcome the way they deal with childhood and family traumas. They are not processing negative emotions in a way that helps them overcomes their suffering , they are processing them in a way that means they recieve the comfort, nurturing and strength to cope with and endure their suffering.

You are right about them being caught in a cycle that does not include them getting over it. Ironically, you can go too far the other direction too. You cope so well with everthing that even car accidents are just water off a duck's back. The goal is to cope really well with stuff without losing your social sensitivity or emotinal intelligence.

[Soapy Sam]

Possibly- just possibly- women have more to complain about?

[welshdean]

... I highly doubt women complain more,

Ha, not married then pal. ;)

My missus is hoping for a place on Team GB in London 2012 in the nagging and moaning. My guess is she'll get a podium finish.

My little moan, why can't women leave the seat up when they've finished in the toilet?


ETA: I think it's more genetic than social conditioning. They have no 'rationality' gene, no 'keeping the argument on the same subject we started on' gene and no 'TV programme filter' gene. They do have the 'buying shoes' gene, the 'keep a grudge for years' gene and of course the 'dish-washing' gene.:boxedin:

[Cavemonster]

Let's get scientific a little bit
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16901879
Study of 261 nursing homes. Males more likely to lodge a complaint in general, but men and women complain about different things.

This study seems to fall along the lines of the stereotypes
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6V9F-4BWMPGD-1&_user=10&_coverDate=11%2F30%2F2004&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=gateway&_origin=gateway&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1746863877&_rerunOrigin=scholar.google&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=5613dbd59e8b3029d51b303d91c8d0ef&searchtype=a

Women feel more dissatisfaction than men, and have more emotionally based coping styles.

[Cavemonster]

Ha, not married then pal. ;)

My missus is hoping for a place on Team GB in London 2012 in the nagging and moaning. My guess is she'll get a podium finish.

My little moan, why can't women leave the seat up when they've finished in the toilet?


ETA: I think it's more genetic than social conditioning. They have no 'rationality' gene, no 'keeping the argument on the same subject we started on' gene and no 'TV programme filter' gene. They do have the 'buying shoes' gene, the 'keep a grudge for years' gene and of course the 'dish-washing' gene.:boxedin:

Maybe that's just your wife ;)

My mom is a huge complainer, and my dad never raised a peep. If you look at just the two of them, it would confirm your stereotype. But skip to the next generation, my two brothers and their wives- One brother and his wife both complain about everything, the other one and his wife never ever complain, no matter what.

May I ask how old you and the missus are? In my experience, the older generations tend to live within the gender roles they were brought up with to some extent.

[welshdean]

Maybe that's just your wife ;)

My mom is a huge complainer, and my dad never raised a peep. If you look at just the two of them, it would confirm your stereotype. But skip to the next generation, my two brothers and their wives- One brother and his wife both complain about everything, the other one and his wife never ever complain, no matter what.

May I ask how old you and the missus are? In my experience, the older generations tend to live within the gender roles they were brought up with to some extent.


I'm 42 and if Mrs Welshdean saw my post above, not likely to see 43. BTW my asinine jokes were to pander to the folks that hold the stereotype as Truthtm .

[Monketey Ghost]

I've started threads like this before. I'm constantly frustrated dealing with women who get very emotional about situations that are sort of over and done with.

I'm not sure how to explain it. Here's an example. My 10 year old son accidentally broke my brand new lap top. He left it on the bed under the covers and the motor burned out. I know he didn't mean it. I know he learned a lesson about being careful but I really didn't get mad because it's over and done with, he didn't mean it and what is flipping out going to solve? That said I'm a very strict parent normally so it's not like I let the kids rule the roost.

In this case my attitude to myself was, "it's over, see if you can fix it and if you can't it's a loss"

I've noticed however that several female friends of mine want to play out say "childhood trauma" or "family trauma" they can't get over something like "My father didn't walk me down the aisle and my wedding was ruined." They'll sit and converse and pat each other on the back, each one cooing supportive phrases. In my mind I'm thinking, "Chick it's over, it happened 10 years ago GET OVER IT" but what I say is the same old cooing as the rest or just keeping silent.

I'm struck by a sort of female cultural hegemony where maybe all of us are sitting there thinking the same thing but no one wants to say anything.

Any thoughts?


Lessons I've learned from my wife:

It doesn't have to make sense

Sometimes women talk just to talk, they don't want you to say anything


They need to be emotionally demonstrative, even if the emotion/demonstration is misleading to what the actual problem/emotion might be

...and it may be days before you get to the bottom of it because you don't know how to elicit useful information from impossible-to-formulate questions.

By the way, my wife insisted on my new avatar after we fought recently.

[Cayvmann]

I assure you, I know many men (my brothers) who keep going over old crap, ad nauseum, and never "get over it". I will concede that it's culturally more expected of women, as I call them "old ladies" when they get into the pity parties.

How we see these things is probably a bit of confirmation bias, and cultural expectations.

[aggle-rithm]

I assure you, I know many men (my brothers) who keep going over old crap, ad nauseum, and never "get over it".

I think men have more of an urge to find closure by going out and killing the thing that is causing them grief. After a few beers, of course.

Stupid society won't let us, though.

[Dancing David]

I've started threads like this before. I'm constantly frustrated dealing with women who get very emotional about situations that are sort of over and done with.

I'm not sure how to explain it. Here's an example. My 10 year old son accidentally broke my brand new lap top. He left it on the bed under the covers and the motor burned out. I know he didn't mean it. I know he learned a lesson about being careful but I really didn't get mad because it's over and done with, he didn't mean it and what is flipping out going to solve? That said I'm a very strict parent normally so it's not like I let the kids rule the roost.

In this case my attitude to myself was, "it's over, see if you can fix it and if you can't it's a loss"

I've noticed however that several female friends of mine want to play out say "childhood trauma" or "family trauma" they can't get over something like "My father didn't walk me down the aisle and my wedding was ruined." They'll sit and converse and pat each other on the back, each one cooing supportive phrases. In my mind I'm thinking, "Chick it's over, it happened 10 years ago GET OVER IT" but what I say is the same old cooing as the rest or just keeping silent.

I'm struck by a sort of female cultural hegemony where maybe all of us are sitting there thinking the same thing but no one wants to say anything.

Any thoughts?

Um that is not what I consider to be trauma, but if it represents a pattern of emotional suffering it could be trauma. It took me five years of group therapy and a lot of work to resolve my family issues.

Yes some people complain, but I sure here enough men piss and moan about various things that they can't change either.

Now there are healthy ways to learn to cope with emotional trauma and unhealthy ways.

My childhood trauma involved emotional abuse, humiliation, sexual assault and sexual boundary crossing. (Not all by the same person, some had cross over.) It took a lot of effort to change teh patterns that it established, especially since my secong major girl friend was an alcoholic borderline personality.

[Quad4_72]

In my MANY experiences with women, I have found that it is not necessarily them complaining more, it is how they react to problems. I have found that when a problem arises, instead of utilizing the critical thinking process, some women will go straight to emotion and bypass logic. Sometimes, they would rather cry about a problem as opposed to seeking out a rational solution. Of course, this does not apply to all women.

[Flo]

In my MANY experiences with women, I have found that it is not necessarily them complaining more, it is how they react to problems. I have found that when a problem arises, instead of utilizing the critical thinking process, some women will go straight to emotion and bypass logic. Sometimes, they would rather cry rage about a problem as opposed to seeking out a rational solution. Of course, this does not apply to all women.


;)

[TragicMonkey]

I would say that many women complain as a kind of social bonding. One woman complains, the other women sympathize, everyone shares stories, and they wind up a tighter group because of their mutual suffering because of whatever thing they're complaining about. What doesn't work is when they're having this kind of complaining session and someone butts in with suggestions on how to fix it (or worst of all, "what you should have done is this" because what the hell use is that? It's already too late and you just called her stupid as well) because that's not what's being looked for.

The downside of this sort of thing is that it can cause a downward morale spiral. I had a close friend at my work who had a truly horrible time here, and hearing all her complaints made me unhappy with this place also. Then she got a job elsewhere, and now this place doesn't seem as bad as I was thinking it was. I like my friend, and I liked working with her, but constantly airing the negatives made it seem worse than it is.

[Quad4_72]

;)

Sometimes. In those situations as you have identified, instead of crying for the emotional response, a male would go into a rage about it instead of thinking rationally. Good point.

[sgtbaker]

I've started threads like this before. I'm constantly frustrated dealing with women who get very emotional about situations that are sort of over and done with.


It's obviously not over and done with, to them, because it's still bothering them. Is there a rating system for traumatic events; a specific time alloted for which a person is expected to get over issues?

I'm not sure how to explain it. Here's an example. My 10 year old son accidentally broke my brand new lap top. He left it on the bed under the covers and the motor burned out. I know he didn't mean it. I know he learned a lesson about being careful but I really didn't get mad because it's over and done with, he didn't mean it and what is flipping out going to solve? That said I'm a very strict parent normally so it's not like I let the kids rule the roost.

There is a whole range of ways to deal with a child not respecting another person's property between forgetting about it and traumatizing the child. When my son broke my daughter's laptop, I saw it as an opportunity to teach him a valuable lesson on how to care for other people's property. He didn't have the $100's laying around to replace it, so he did yardwork to cover half the cost to replace it.

I've noticed however that several female friends of mine want to play out say "childhood trauma" or "family trauma" they can't get over something like "My father didn't walk me down the aisle and my wedding was ruined." They'll sit and converse and pat each other on the back, each one cooing supportive phrases. In my mind I'm thinking, "Chick it's over, it happened 10 years ago GET OVER IT" but what I say is the same old cooing as the rest or just keeping silent.

Breaking a material object hardly compares to feeling betrayed by a parent. It may have been ten years ago but what ever is bothering her about it, hasn't been resolved.

I'm struck by a sort of female cultural hegemony where maybe all of us are sitting there thinking the same thing but no one wants to say anything.

Any thoughts?

My thoughts are, we are not socially conditioned, we are genetically conditioned. Women have 4x more connective tissue between the right (visual/intuitive side) and left side of the brain (mathematical/logical) which gives us a superior ability to put words to thoughts. Men have a larger cortex on the left side of the brain and it is believed to be where problem solving skills come from, where as women have a larger [same word] cortex on the right side of the brain, which is where self perception is believed to be controlled.

Those traits play a huge role in the male and female differences in handling situation. Simply put, don't give man a problem unless you want a solution. Most importantly, don't give a man a problem unless there [I]is a solution for it.

There's also some interesting facts about general and mental health rates among men and women. Women are said to live longer because we are more likely to visit a doctor about a problem. This is just my guess but because of our keen sense of self awareness, we identify problems faster. Women also have a higher rate of depression but I wonder if that also plays a role in our ability to vocalize problems. A man is less likely to see a doctor for depression. Women are more likely to attempt suicide but men have a higher rate of suicide completion and that's likely because of the methods chosen. Women are more likely to swallow pills or drowning which tends to offer time to change their minds, where-as men are more likely to use a gun or hang themselves which some in the medical field associate with the desire for finality of the method.

*I would like to note that this is from an obsession I had with suicide after a friend killed himself, 5 years ago. The information may be dated.

[DavidJames]

Most of the forums I frequent have a huge majority of male posters. Invariably, threads like this crop up from time to time. Invariably all the guys agree about all the negative aspects of the other gender, eg whining/complaining, gossiping, "cat fighting". Invariably when finished the guys will exhibit most of the same behaviors they just whined about.

[JAStewart]

Maybe there's something deeper here. Maybe us men are just complete nihilists and we don't think it's worth getting flustered about anything. I guess that I find some of my female friends' moaning a bit trivial... can't wear the same dress/shoes on a night out, eh, whatever. I think that it's not something necessarily socially conditioned at a young age but as they get older it does seem infectious. My experience with girls and problems (my own or others) is that they take a more sympathetic view, and someone being sympathetic is better than being told to "man up" (sometimes). So maybe wimmins are just smarter and know to complain cause people listen.

Men are far more scary when they're pissed off cause they might actually punch you in the pus.

[Flo]

I'm currently acting as an interposition force between the North Brotheristan and the South- and East-Sisteristan following the death of the Main Motheristan.

South-Sisteristan has been viciously fighting against the two other factions, airing grievances* based on real and mostly imaginary** childhood trauma, and engaging in illegal actions despite the sollicitor's advice, then complaining about having been treated in an ignoble way by the two others. East-Sisteristan is dealing with most of the paperwork and formalities, trying to preserve everybody's interests, and telling everybody that the past is the past, while Brotheristan is totally unable to deal logically with the situation, oscillating between regurgitating childhood trauma (real and reinvented/imagined), going into occasionnal rages against East-Sisteristan level-headed approach, and alternatively finding excuses and complaining bitterly about South-Sisteristan's ugly behavior.

This has led me to conclude that both genders are equally able to fall for false reasonning, irrationnal behavior, and that I should put the three of them together in a sealed and padded room for half an hour then go in and sweep the debris before I go completely bonker !

* actually barefaced lies of the vilest order
** I've been very close to the family for more than 40 years and think I've got a good grasp of the truth of the matter ...

[Jekyll's Guest]

Men are far more scary when they're pissed off cause they might actually punch you in the pus.

Yeah you have plenty of man-apes that will stomp on your head for breathing their personal air, but then women tend to make up for their lack of size and testosterone by going in to screaming fits where they use potentially deadly weapons with no restraint.

[Lithrael]

A huge huge part of this is social reinforcement. Any woman who liked bugs instead of shoes as a kid will do this a LOT less because they didn't grow up chatting with mall girls. Also, socially, it's just an easy and approved subject for women who don't know each other well - don't have anything to talk about? Well, you can analyze people you both know or you can complain about stuff.

As far as the crying about a problem thing, some women use that as a release valve for stress - it's not that they want to cry about it instead of solve it, it's that they want to get a little catharsis going on first. Tackling the actual problem happens afterward.

[Number Six]

I think the women complaining to each other is genetic. Women have more of a need to verbalize than men (in general...of course there are exceptions). I think TragicMonkey's post at 8:55 got it exactly right. Their complaining is a form of sharing problems and bonding in the process. It's a form of mutual emotional support. Women have more ways of getting emotional support than men and I wouldn't be surprised if it was one of the reasons they live longer.

The problem can come when women don't realize that some men don't use that communication style. Some men don't complain unless something is really bothering them and then they say it just succinctly and it's done. But if the woman is thinking in terms of complaints typically coming in torrents then one quick complaint from a man can seem like nothing and it can be treated as meaningless. After all, short complaints like that usually are meaningless in their discussions with their women friends. Listening to someone complain on and on about things that seem trivial and then finally getting a chance to share one back that is important to you and having it be treated as meaningless is the worst.

[Taarkin]

When a man airs his grievances, he's being a confident, assertive fella who doesn't take guff from anyone.
When a woman does it, she's a shrill harpy.

[Psi Baba]

I'm reminded of a Zen koan I heard a while back. Two Buddhist monks are traveling on foot and come upon a stream that they have to cross. Nearby is a woman who is standing near the edge and is clearly terrified to cross the stream. So the older monk picks up the woman and carries her across the stream. The monks continue their journey and about a mile or so later, the younger monk says, "You picked up that woman back there and you know it is forbidden to touch a woman." The older monk replied, "That's true, but I put her down back there--you're still carrying her."

[PGH]

Yeah you have plenty of man-apes that will stomp on your head for breathing their personal air, but then women tend to make up for their lack of size and testosterone by going in to screaming fits where they use potentially deadly weapons with no restraint.

Or put another way by the brilliant Louis C.K.:

"A man might punch you in the face or break your arm. But a woman will <crap> in your heart!"

Men do simple damage that is evaluated in dollars. Women do psychological damage that can only be measured in years of therapy.


Love you ladies!;):D

[Jekyll's Guest]

When a man airs his grievances, he's being a confident, assertive fella who doesn't take guff from anyone.
When a woman does it, she's a shrill harpy.

Then surely the answer is for women to stop airing grievances in a shrill, harpy-like manner. They should just do it in a confident, assertive manner, like a man.

See what I did there? Saw a problem and fixed it. You would probably have just went on and on about it then bought new shoes.

[sgtbaker]

Ha, not married then pal. ;)


ETA: I think it's more genetic than social conditioning. They have no 'rationality' gene, no 'keeping the argument on the same subject we started on' gene and no 'TV programme filter' gene. They do have the 'buying shoes' gene, the 'keep a grudge for years' gene and of course the 'dish-washing' gene.:boxedin:

You are married so I figure I am probably pointing out the obvious here, but it's been my experience that rarely is the fight ever really about what started the fight. From the huge sampling of women that I confide in, and who confine in me (all 2 of them), I've realized that

1) we tolerate a lot, for the sake of keeping the peace, until we finally blow up and it all comes out.

2) The grudge only comes back up when it's somehow relavant to the situation.

[Nursefoxfire]

I would say that many women complain as a kind of social bonding. One woman complains, the other women sympathize, everyone shares stories, and they wind up a tighter group because of their mutual suffering because of whatever thing they're complaining about. What doesn't work is when they're having this kind of complaining session and someone butts in with suggestions on how to fix it (or worst of all, "what you should have done is this" because what the hell use is that? It's already too late and you just called her stupid as well) because that's not what's being looked for.

The downside of this sort of thing is that it can cause a downward morale spiral. I had a close friend at my work who had a truly horrible time here, and hearing all her complaints made me unhappy with this place also. Then she got a job elsewhere, and now this place doesn't seem as bad as I was thinking it was. I like my friend, and I liked working with her, but constantly airing the negatives made it seem worse than it is.

Holy hell, i agree with TragicMonkey! :eek:

(usually I just laugh at you :p )

[Pixie Stix]

Maybe because women are more willing to put up with a difficult situation, and use complaining as a coping mechanism, rather than just screwing over another person to get their way?

Men are seven times more likely to leave their spouses due to the spouse developing a chronic/debilitating illness then women are to leave their spouses for the same reason.

I'd rather a spouse who doesn't leave me when I get MS, but vents to her girlfriends about it, than have a spouse who just up and leaves me, therefor giving him nothing to complain about.

Also, the USA politics section of this website seems to indicate that men have plenty of trivial, irrational things to complain about. And any political website comment section seems to me to typically be dominated by men, and most comments on such websites are negative/complaining.

"Chick it's over, it happened 10 years ago GET OVER IT"

Yet plenty of men in the Southern United States seem to be unable to get over the Civil War, which they never fought in and ended 150 years ago.

[Jekyll's Guest]

Yet plenty of men in the Southern United States seem to be unable to get over the Civil War, which they never fought in and ended 150 years ago.

I live in Texas, not a day goes by without me and the gang getting together at a coffee shop or spa to bitch and moan about the Civil War.

We like to have group telephone conversations about the tacky boots Sherman wore during the fall of Vicksburg, or curse how Washington DC only got to be capitol by sleeping its way to the top.

[RenaissanceBiker]

Dude, even women don't understand women. If one is tolerant enough to allow you to live with her then just hang on and enjoy the ride.

[Ron_Tomkins]

Aw, let them complain. As long as they keep bringing me beer while I sit down to watch the game...

[PGH]

Dude, even women don't understand women. If one is tolerant enough to allow you to live with her then just hang on and enjoy the ride.

Probably the single most intelligent thing I've ever read. :D

[shuize]

I sympathize. :) Sounds like my wife.

This is what John Gray wrote about in Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus. Men (or other women) are just supposed to patiently listen and agree. The complaints are usually something for which there is no solution, so trying to say something constructive or racking your brains for a solution is pointless.

I can't tell you how many times I've wanted to just say "Unless there's something I can do about it, I don't want to hear it."


This is spot on. My wife used to complain about her job nearly every day and it finally got to the point where, even though we really needed the money, I was so exasperated I told her to just quit. She looked at me like I was nuts. That's when I understood a fundamental difference between the two of us: When I complain, it's usually part of seeking a solution. When she complains, it's just verbalizing.

[No Nice Things]

While I'm enjoying the irony of a thread posted by a man (presumably) complaining about how women complain, followed by responses from some other men (again, presumably) also complaining about women complaining, I do have some advice.

Women are clearly insufferable. Stop hanging out with them, stop dating them, and for heaven's sake stop sleeping with them. They're only going to complain about your lack of emotional support, lack of romance, and prowess in the sack. Why on earth would you want to encourage their complaining habit?

[Jekyll's Guest]

While I'm enjoying the irony of a thread posted by a man (presumably) complaining about how women complain, followed by responses from some other men (again, presumably) also complaining about women complaining, I do have some advice.

Women are clearly insufferable. Stop hanging out with them, stop dating them, and for heaven's sake stop sleeping with them. They're only going to complain about your lack of emotional support, lack of romance, and prowess in the sack. Why on earth would you want to encourage their complaining habit?

We haven't got a good quality sexbot yet.

[No Nice Things]

We haven't got a good quality sexbot yet.

Then all the men need to get together, stop dating, marrying, and sleeping with women and pool all the money you'll save into investing in R&D. Surely it would be worth a few years of mass celibacy and making your own sandwiches.

[bookitty]

I've started threads like this before. I'm constantly frustrated dealing with women who get very emotional about situations that are sort of over and done with.

I'm not sure how to explain it. Here's an example. My 10 year old son accidentally broke my brand new lap top. He left it on the bed under the covers and the motor burned out. I know he didn't mean it. I know he learned a lesson about being careful but I really didn't get mad because it's over and done with, he didn't mean it and what is flipping out going to solve? That said I'm a very strict parent normally so it's not like I let the kids rule the roost.

In this case my attitude to myself was, "it's over, see if you can fix it and if you can't it's a loss"

I've noticed however that several female friends of mine want to play out say "childhood trauma" or "family trauma" they can't get over something like "My father didn't walk me down the aisle and my wedding was ruined." They'll sit and converse and pat each other on the back, each one cooing supportive phrases. In my mind I'm thinking, "Chick it's over, it happened 10 years ago GET OVER IT" but what I say is the same old cooing as the rest or just keeping silent.

I'm struck by a sort of female cultural hegemony where maybe all of us are sitting there thinking the same thing but no one wants to say anything.

Any thoughts?

Do you have anything to support this hypothesis beside biased observation? "I walked by some people from a group engaging in x behavior, therefore everyone in that group engages in x behavior." is hardly scientific.

It's just too easy to do. I could say, for example, that when I was a bartender, I noticed that the women who most often stated that they did not EVER engage in stereotypical female behavior, or bragged about how they only got along with men, were the ones most likely to get overly drunk and turn into an attention whore. But it would be silly to draw some greater social implication from that.

[John Jones]

When a man airs his grievances, he's being a confident, assertive fella who doesn't take guff from anyone.
When a woman does it, she's a shrill harpy.

When a man airs his grievances, he's being a crybaby. When a woman does it, she's bringing legitimate grievances to the table.

It all depends on your point of view. :eek:

[John Jones]

Maybe because women are more willing to put up with a difficult situation, and use complaining as a coping mechanism, rather than just screwing over another person to get their way?

Men are seven times more likely to leave their spouses due to the spouse developing a chronic/debilitating illness then women are to leave their spouses for the same reason.



Link?

Anybody can make a claim.

I think I can find evidence that most divorces are desired and sought by women for reasons that don't include abuse, adultery, abandonment, or alcoholism.

[John Jones]

While I'm enjoying the irony of a thread posted by a man (presumably) complaining about how women complain, followed by responses from some other men (again, presumably) also complaining about women complaining, I do have some advice.
[...]



The OP is a woman.

[calebprime]

The OP is a woman.

Which is one reason I like her -- she's got a somewhat unusual attitude toward group solidarity for a woman.

Another is her other posts. :)

eta: It's almost impossible to make observations in real life and turn them into science. Doesn't mean she or anyone else shouldn't attempt to think about them.

There's this near-automatic nay-saying that occurs in skepticism, here at JREF.

[Tsukasa Buddha]

Interestingly, when I am reading the examples posted here I am reminded more of the social disapproval of men expressing emotion...

Well, those sociology papers where probably written by whiny women :p .

[John Jones]

I object to the automatic assumption by "No Nice Things" that the OP was a man.

I have often heard the criticism that women hate each other.

[Bilbo]

I DNRTFA, but Yes.

p.s. will someone call that bitch that sleeps in my bed and tell her I HATE HER!!!!!!!!

eta; think Kinison

[sgtbaker]

Interestingly, when I am reading the examples posted here I am reminded more of the social disapproval of men expressing emotion...

Well, those sociology papers where probably written by whiny women :p .

Hey! That disapproval is by other men.

When a man airs his grievances, he's being a crybaby. When a woman does it, she's bringing legitimate grievances to the table.

It all depends on your point of view. :eek:

I can only speak for myself but when a man wants to talk about his feelings, the last thing I am going to do is emasculate him for doing so. I know a lot of guys that would though.

[John Jones]

Hey! That disapproval is by other men.

No, it's by a society of men and women.

Most women won't marry a man they perceive as weak or needy, and men learn this at an early age.

That's why men forgoe pursuits like Elizebethan poetry or fatherhood as a career and take-on things like skyscraper construction, masonry, engineering, plumbing, and other hard, unpleasant, but valued tasks.

[John Jones]

Hey! That disapproval is by other men.



I can only speak for myself but when a man wants to talk about his feelings, the last thing I am going to do is emasculate him for doing so. I know a lot of guys that would though.


You can only speak for yourself, but you can speak for a lot of guys.

Uh huh.

I seem to recall a sgtbaker who was rationalizing her own involvement in a domestic violence case several months ago.

Any relation?

[sgtbaker]

You can only speak for yourself, but you can speak for a lot of guys.

Uh huh.

I seem to recall a sgtbaker who was rationalizing her own involvement in a domestic violence case several months ago.

Any relation?

I don't recall rationalizing, can you specify when I didn't admit to being wrong, please. I spoke for the specific guys, in my old crowd, that used to tease the one that went to me for relationship advice.

[Taarkin]

Link?

Anybody can make a claim.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/cncr.24577/abstract

[John Jones]

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/cncr.24577/abstract


Fair enough.

[Dorian Gray]

When I hear a woman ask "What's her problem?" I just point at that woman and say "AHA!" As if to say "See? Women don't understand women either!"

My boss just.... And my wife.... And my daughter also.... Women are just... You know.

[Cavemonster]

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/cncr.24577/abstract

Here was the original quote:

Maybe because women are more willing to put up with a difficult situation, and use complaining as a coping mechanism, rather than just screwing over another person to get their way?

Men are seven times more likely to leave their spouses due to the spouse developing a chronic/debilitating illness then women are to leave their spouses for the same reason.

Although the study uses the term "partner abandonment" it doesn't seem to be in the data set who actually initiated the divorce or separation, just that sex of the ill partner was a strong predictor of the end of the relationship. It doesn't rule out that women when ill may be more likely to reevaluate their priorities and leave an unhappy relationship, while men when they get sick are more likely to appreciate what they have.

And it's yet another jump to attribute this to a male inability to put up with difficulty and likelyhood of "screwing another person over to get their way"

Consider some confounding factors. Men are more likely to control the wealth in a relationship and to be the bigger earners, with a larger pension. A woman with a dying partner stands to financially gain by sticking around until he dies. If she leaves, she may be written out of the will, or the life insurance policy. Uncharitable assesment? Yes, but so was what I'm responding to, and mine could more easily be backed with numbers if I chose.

Another possible cause? Men are more stoic in the face of pain, women may complain more and have their personalities change more drastically, becoming harder to live with.

I'm pulling these out of my rump, but they're as much based on the data as Pixie's claim.

[sgtbaker]

I seem to recall a sgtbaker who was rationalizing her own involvement in a domestic violence case several months ago.

Any relation?

Well, you've been to the thread and you haven't responded to my request. Back in the thread, boys vs girls, you accused me of rationalizing abusing my husband and I asked you back then to show me where. You failed to answer then and you failed to answer now. Do me a favor, either back it up or stop making the accusation.

[RenaissanceBiker]

Women are clearly insufferable. Stop hanging out with them, stop dating them, and for heaven's sake stop sleeping with them. They're only going to complain about your lack of emotional support, lack of romance, and prowess in the sack. Why on earth would you want to encourage their complaining habit?

That would be boring. I am a man. I ride motorcycles because they are fun and dangerous. I go hunting because it is difficult and demanding. I run races because I like to test the limits of my abilities. I live and sleep with a woman because it is risky and rewarding.

The OP is a woman.

See? Even women don't understand women. Oprah has made millions off of this fact. When a man marries his high school sweetheart and lives his whole life with her he probably only figures out about a quarter of what is going on in her head. She might surprise the hell out of him on his 85th birthday. That's WHY you go with them. A woman might rip your heart out and stomp on it in front of all your friends and co-workers then take half your stuff, move in with your neighbor and hit you up for child support. She might become your most trusted companion sharing all the joys of the world and making your life much richer and fuller than you have ever dreamed. It's worth the risk.

[jiggeryqua]

I am a man. I ride motorcycles because they are fun and dangerous. I go hunting because it is difficult and demanding. I run races because I like to test the limits of my abilities. I live and sleep with a woman because it is risky and rewarding.

I am a man. I don't make my behaviour stand for all male behaviour. I don't draw a connection between those two statements, but I get the impression there's a silent "therefore" after your first sentence.

I'm a man. I write and perform poetry because I'm good at it. I support vulnerable people in my work, although it's demanding and rarely rewarding. I minimise risk in the best interests of my child. I live alone because I can cook and clean and sew and make a comfortable home, and because living together is a throwback to 'owning' women. I sleep with women because I'm a heterosexual - and being a performance poet makes it relatively easy ;) . You make it sound like a choice - did you try men and not find it risky enough?

Did you have difficulty connecting the first sentence in that paragraph to the ones that followed? Did you read a silent 'therefore' into it? "I am a Scotsman. I don't eat porridge or drink whisky." Evidently not a true scotsman at all...

For the record, I also challenge women who claim to know that all women are exactly like them, or at least fit (or ought to fit) a view of the world that divides the entirety of diverse humanity into two distinct groups of thought and behaviour. Even astrology recognises twelve, it's sophisticated woo in comparison to 'gender'.

See? Even women don't understand women.

See? There's one example. I kind of recognise your name from round here, but don't remember whether you're wooish as a rule. Do you genuinely believe one example proves your point?

[RenaissanceBiker]

If I wanted to put a silent "therefore" there I would have.

[whatthebutlersaw]

Ah. I remember my days in Complaining class. It was that or Shoe Shopping Science and I already had that as an extra curricular. You didn't get graded but you couldn't get your diploma if you hadn't attended one of the classes, but I was a bit of a swot so I did both. (I learned to be a swot in "Desperately Trying to Meet, or Preferably Exceed, Expectations" class. It was very useful.)

Of course, all that was only killing time waiting to be married. There's a special Secretary College for that and I graduated with 97%.

[TragicMonkey]

Women are very annoying creatures. In fact, the only thing as bad as women is men.

[RenaissanceBiker]

I'll bet that whatthebutlersaw is really good at complaining about shopping for shoes.

[jiggeryqua]

I'll bet that whatthebutlersaw is really good at complaining about shopping for shoes.

It's a safe bet that she exceeds your expectations in that regard.

[Mycroft]

Then all the men need to get together, stop dating, marrying, and sleeping with women and pool all the money you'll save into investing in R&D. Surely it would be worth a few years of mass celibacy and making your own sandwiches.

Celibacy? I don't see any reason to be celibate while this important research goes on.

[DisordeR]

Everything is always too much drama, its because they spend a lot of time watching soap operas I'm guessing.

No soaps = No drama.

I've seen some women that don't watch TV and don't complain too much, others that do.

Its TV I'm telling you, perhaps I'm onto something!?

[Number Six]

Everything is always too much drama, its because they spend a lot of time watching soap operas I'm guessing.

No soaps = No drama.

I've seen some women that don't watch TV and don't complain too much, others that do.

Its TV I'm telling you, perhaps I'm onto something!?

So you think women didn't complain until 1950 or so? I say women were getting together in groups back when they were living in caves and sharing their issues. "That damn husband of mine Grog simply refuses to get off his lazy ass and go out and kill a buffalo. And he throws his stuff all over the cave and never puts anything away. We can't have nice things. I got a nice, flat stone to decorate are cave with and that stupid idiot threw it in the river to see how many times he could make it skip."

Forget complaining for a minute. Observer women when they're in a group and talking. The format is the same. One says something about herself or her life. Then another says something about herself or her life that is related to what the first one said. Etc. They just share things about themselves with each other. If the topic of the day is complaining then the thing they share is complaints.

They verbally communicate in high volume. No individual item is extremely important per se, rather the fact that they're sharing is what is most important. That means though that if you tell them something that is important to you you have to explicitly tell them that it's important, otherwise they'll regard it as just one of the large number of things they hear.

And yes, all that is generalizing. There are plenty of exceptions.

[calebprime]

.... I kind of recognise your name from round here, but don't remember whether you're wooish as a rule. Do you genuinely believe one example proves your point?

I can help. He's got a sense of humor.

[TragicMonkey]

So you think women didn't complain until 1950 or so? I say women were getting together in groups back when they were living in caves and sharing their issues. "That damn husband of mine Grog simply refuses to get off his lazy ass and go out and kill a buffalo. And he throws his stuff all over the cave and never puts anything away. We can't have nice things. I got a nice, flat stone to decorate are cave with and that stupid idiot threw it in the river to see how many times he could make it skip."


And you can tell she doesn't actually hate her husband Grog because if one of the other women agrees too much that Grog is awful and contributes too many anecdotes and insults about Grog, Mrs Grog will be her enemy for life. Grog is Mrs Grog's to complain about. The other ladies may sympathize with her complaints of Grog, but are not there to contribute their own complaints of Grog.

[RenaissanceBiker]

I can help. He's got a sense of humor.
Evidence?

[Ron_Tomkins]

So if I complain too much, am I like... a transvestite??? :eek:

[Jekyll's Guest]

So if I complain too much, am I like... a transvestite??? :eek:

Depends if you're complaining about your garter belt.

[epepke]

Then all the men need to get together, stop dating, marrying, and sleeping with women and pool all the money you'll save into investing in R&D. Surely it would be worth a few years of mass celibacy and making your own sandwiches.

We were doing just fine with the Stepford wives until the director, Bryan Forbes, decided to hire his wife, Nanette Newman, to play one of the sexbots. Then they all had to wear those stupid long dresses so that nobody could see her Roquefort cheese legs.

Anyway, classic study here: http://www.jstor.org/pss/1128199

[No Nice Things]

I object to the automatic assumption by "No Nice Things" that the OP was a man.

I have often heard the criticism that women hate each other.

Which would be why I explicitly admitted I was making such an assumption in my post. The OP being a woman doesn't really change the irony much. She's still complaining about women being complainers.

OP - I apologise for stating my assumption that you were male.

[Jekyll's Guest]

The OP being a woman doesn't really change the irony much. She's still complaining about women being complainers.

That's not irony, that's evidence supporting her hypothesis.

[slingblade]

All I know is that in my house, my husband bitches and complains about ev.er.y.thing.
I tend to shrug my shoulders and move on.

The major difference between us is that when I do complain, I'm trying to find a solution for the problem.

When he complains, he just wants to complain. Offering him a solution actually makes him angrier. "I don't want you to fix it, I just want to complain about it. Can't I just complain?"


Then again, I did test as highly androgynous in my Human Growth and Development class....

[jiggeryqua]

I can help. He's got a sense of humor.

So does Jim Davidson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Davidson_(comedian)#Controversies), but he hasn't been getting many bookings lately.

[Visual Purple]

The major difference between us is that when I do complain, I'm trying to find a solution for the problem.

When he complains, he just wants to complain. Offering him a solution actually makes him angrier. "I don't want you to fix it, I just want to complain about it. Can't I just complain?"

I feel for you--my husband often has to explain to me that he wasn't looking for an answer, just emotional support. (Women commiserating is not the same as them complaining.)

That said, all the women I know talk about little but work and the sports that they participate in. If they complain, it is only about sports injuries, and that's in the context of discussing how to speed healing. They talk incessantly about shoes, to be sure, but only about sports shoes. When no men are around, they may discuss the relative hotness of various men. I had sort of started thinking that this was normal.

[Number Six]

I feel for you--my husband often has to explain to me that he wasn't looking for an answer, just emotional support. (Women commiserating is not the same as them complaining.)

That said, all the women I know talk about little but work and the sports that they participate in. If they complain, it is only about sports injuries, and that's in the context of discussing how to speed healing. They talk incessantly about shoes, to be sure, but only about sports shoes. When no men are around, they may discuss the relative hotness of various men. I had sort of started thinking that this was normal.

There is something else I bet they talk about too but I'm going to see if someone can come up with it before I say it. And no, it's not sex, and all you dirty minds and go just wash your brain out with soap for thinking that.

[RenaissanceBiker]

So does Jim Davidson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Davidson_(comedian)#Controversies), but he hasn't been getting many bookings lately.

How are his critics doing?

[Roxane]

That would be boring. I am a man. I ride motorcycles because they are fun and dangerous. I go hunting because it is difficult and demanding. I run races because I like to test the limits of my abilities. I live and sleep with a woman because it is risky and rewarding.
See? Even women don't understand women.
Nobody understands anybody. This place is full of men and women all very busy eschewing their gender rolls and not understanding each other.


When a man marries his high school sweetheart and lives his whole life with her he probably only figures out about a quarter of what is going on in her head. She might surprise the hell out of him on his 85th birthday. That's WHY you go with them. A woman might rip your heart out and stomp on it in front of all your friends and co-workers then take half your stuff, move in with your neighbor and hit you up for child support. She might become your most trusted companion sharing all the joys of the world and making your life much richer and fuller than you have ever dreamed.
Anyone you give yourself over to has this power--to offer fulfillment and joy or terrible, spectacular tragedy.



It's worth the risk.
Yes.

[calebprime]

So does Jim Davidson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Davidson_(comedian)#Controversies), but he hasn't been getting many bookings lately.

I suggest re-reading RB's post. What specifically bothers you about it?

In fact, go back and read a lot of them.

After admitting you don't know much about him, you've compared him to some infamously offensive comedian.

This much is clear, but I really don't understand what you think you're doing.

[jiggeryqua]

I suggest re-reading RB's post. What specifically bothers you about it?

In fact, go back and read a lot of them.

After admitting you don't know much about him, you've compared him to some infamously offensive comedian.

This much is clear, but I really don't understand what you think you're doing.

I responded to RB's post. What specifically bothered you about my response?

I take your reading recommendation on board, but you know, I have books to finish and he's still posting and I doubt I'll keep up with his new posts let alone the old stuff.

Let me, for a moment, 'compare' an elephant and an aspirin. Hmmm. Not very many points of coincidence there. Nevertheless, the act of comparison is not invalid. Meanwhile, I was told RB has a sense of humour. So does Jim Davidson. There is no 'comparison' - and certainly no attempt to equate the two. I admire, in a way, your rush to 'defend' your friend, but there is no objective 'sense of humour'. If his remarks were intended to be funny I really missed the point. That's the internet for you - there are smilies and such to help get that sort of message across. 'Having a sense of humour' doesn't defend Davidson - or anyone else.

So, what is 'clear' to you turns out to be opaque after all. But then, you do concede that you don't understand...

[calebprime]

(Cp re-reads whole thread several times and thinks about what he knows about every poster.)

Yep, I'm in the wrong forum.

[calebprime]

I've started threads like this before. I'm constantly frustrated dealing with women who get very emotional about situations that are sort of over and done with.

I'm not sure how to explain it. Here's an example. My 10 year old son accidentally broke my brand new lap top. He left it on the bed under the covers and the motor burned out. I know he didn't mean it. I know he learned a lesson about being careful but I really didn't get mad because it's over and done with, he didn't mean it and what is flipping out going to solve? That said I'm a very strict parent normally so it's not like I let the kids rule the roost.

In this case my attitude to myself was, "it's over, see if you can fix it and if you can't it's a loss"

I've noticed however that several female friends of mine want to play out say "childhood trauma" or "family trauma" they can't get over something like "My father didn't walk me down the aisle and my wedding was ruined." They'll sit and converse and pat each other on the back, each one cooing supportive phrases. In my mind I'm thinking, "Chick it's over, it happened 10 years ago GET OVER IT" but what I say is the same old cooing as the rest or just keeping silent.

I'm struck by a sort of female cultural hegemony where maybe all of us are sitting there thinking the same thing but no one wants to say anything.

Any thoughts?

You sure complain a lot.

You are complaining about women who complain?

:D

Possibly- just possibly- women have more to complain about?

There's that confirmation bias at work. Actually at least half the time they're talking about shoes.

Um that is not what I consider to be trauma, but if it represents a pattern of emotional suffering it could be trauma. It took me five years of group therapy and a lot of work to resolve my family issues.

Yes some people complain, but I sure here enough men piss and moan about various things that they can't change either.

Now there are healthy ways to learn to cope with emotional trauma and unhealthy ways.

My childhood trauma involved emotional abuse, humiliation, sexual assault and sexual boundary crossing. (Not all by the same person, some had cross over.) It took a lot of effort to change teh patterns that it established, especially since my secong major girl friend was an alcoholic borderline personality.

In my MANY experiences with women, I have found that it is not necessarily them complaining more, it is how they react to problems. I have found that when a problem arises, instead of utilizing the critical thinking process, some women will go straight to emotion and bypass logic. Sometimes, they would rather cry about a problem as opposed to seeking out a rational solution. Of course, this does not apply to all women.

I would say that many women complain as a kind of social bonding. One woman complains, the other women sympathize, everyone shares stories, and they wind up a tighter group because of their mutual suffering because of whatever thing they're complaining about. What doesn't work is when they're having this kind of complaining session and someone butts in with suggestions on how to fix it (or worst of all, "what you should have done is this" because what the hell use is that? It's already too late and you just called her stupid as well) because that's not what's being looked for.

The downside of this sort of thing is that it can cause a downward morale spiral. I had a close friend at my work who had a truly horrible time here, and hearing all her complaints made me unhappy with this place also. Then she got a job elsewhere, and now this place doesn't seem as bad as I was thinking it was. I like my friend, and I liked working with her, but constantly airing the negatives made it seem worse than it is.

It's obviously not over and done with, to them, because it's still bothering them. Is there a rating system for traumatic events; a specific time alloted for which a person is expected to get over issues?



There is a whole range of ways to deal with a child not respecting another person's property between forgetting about it and traumatizing the child. When my son broke my daughter's laptop, I saw it as an opportunity to teach him a valuable lesson on how to care for other people's property. He didn't have the $100's laying around to replace it, so he did yardwork to cover half the cost to replace it.



Breaking a material object hardly compares to feeling betrayed by a parent. It may have been ten years ago but what ever is bothering her about it, hasn't been resolved.



My thoughts are, we are not socially conditioned, we are genetically conditioned. Women have 4x more connective tissue between the right (visual/intuitive side) and left side of the brain (mathematical/logical) which gives us a superior ability to put words to thoughts. Men have a larger cortex on the left side of the brain and it is believed to be where problem solving skills come from, where as women have a larger [same word] cortex on the right side of the brain, which is where self perception is believed to be controlled.

Those traits play a huge role in the male and female differences in handling situation. Simply put, don't give man a problem unless you want a solution. Most importantly, don't give a man a problem unless there [I]is a solution for it.

There's also some interesting facts about general and mental health rates among men and women. Women are said to live longer because we are more likely to visit a doctor about a problem. This is just my guess but because of our keen sense of self awareness, we identify problems faster. Women also have a higher rate of depression but I wonder if that also plays a role in our ability to vocalize problems. A man is less likely to see a doctor for depression. Women are more likely to attempt suicide but men have a higher rate of suicide completion and that's likely because of the methods chosen. Women are more likely to swallow pills or drowning which tends to offer time to change their minds, where-as men are more likely to use a gun or hang themselves which some in the medical field associate with the desire for finality of the method.

*I would like to note that this is from an obsession I had with suicide after a friend killed himself, 5 years ago. The information may be dated.

Maybe there's something deeper here. Maybe us men are just complete nihilists and we don't think it's worth getting flustered about anything. I guess that I find some of my female friends' moaning a bit trivial... can't wear the same dress/shoes on a night out, eh, whatever. I think that it's not something necessarily socially conditioned at a young age but as they get older it does seem infectious. My experience with girls and problems (my own or others) is that they take a more sympathetic view, and someone being sympathetic is better than being told to "man up" (sometimes). So maybe wimmins are just smarter and know to complain cause people listen.

Men are far more scary when they're pissed off cause they might actually punch you in the pus.

I'm reminded of a Zen koan I heard a while back. Two Buddhist monks are traveling on foot and come upon a stream that they have to cross. Nearby is a woman who is standing near the edge and is clearly terrified to cross the stream. So the older monk picks up the woman and carries her across the stream. The monks continue their journey and about a mile or so later, the younger monk says, "You picked up that woman back there and you know it is forbidden to touch a woman." The older monk replied, "That's true, but I put her down back there--you're still carrying her."

Dude, even women don't understand women. If one is tolerant enough to allow you to live with her then just hang on and enjoy the ride.

Which is one reason I like her -- she's got a somewhat unusual attitude toward group solidarity for a woman.

Another is her other posts. :)

eta: It's almost impossible to make observations in real life and turn them into science. Doesn't mean she or anyone else shouldn't attempt to think about them.

There's this near-automatic nay-saying that occurs in skepticism, here at JREF.

While I'm enjoying the irony of a thread posted by a man (presumably) complaining about how women complain, followed by responses from some other men (again, presumably) also complaining about women complaining, I do have some advice.

Women are clearly insufferable. Stop hanging out with them, stop dating them, and for heaven's sake stop sleeping with them. They're only going to complain about your lack of emotional support, lack of romance, and prowess in the sack. Why on earth would you want to encourage their complaining habit?

That would be boring. I am a man. I ride motorcycles because they are fun and dangerous. I go hunting because it is difficult and demanding. I run races because I like to test the limits of my abilities. I live and sleep with a woman because it is risky and rewarding.



See? Even women don't understand women. Oprah has made millions off of this fact. When a man marries his high school sweetheart and lives his whole life with her he probably only figures out about a quarter of what is going on in her head. She might surprise the hell out of him on his 85th birthday. That's WHY you go with them. A woman might rip your heart out and stomp on it in front of all your friends and co-workers then take half your stuff, move in with your neighbor and hit you up for child support. She might become your most trusted companion sharing all the joys of the world and making your life much richer and fuller than you have ever dreamed. It's worth the risk.


Chaotic thread. Many pov's. RB responding to a deliberately absurd post by No Nice Things with a post in which the thrust is that he enjoys the risks of a long-term relationship.

TrueThat has posted elsewhere about getting angry around group-think. Most memorably, about getting really mad about group-think in a seminary, which she, oddly, was studying in, even though she was an atheist.

I'm not here to argue. I'm here to understand.:D

[Monketey Ghost]

All I know is that in my house, my husband bitches and complains about ev.er.y.thing.
I tend to shrug my shoulders and move on.

The major difference between us is that when I do complain, I'm trying to find a solution for the problem.

When he complains, he just wants to complain. Offering him a solution actually makes him angrier. "I don't want you to fix it, I just want to complain about it. Can't I just complain?"


Then again, I did test as highly androgynous in my Human Growth and Development class....


In my house it is the reverse, down to the conversations-that-aren't-because-you're-not-supposed-to-say-anything. I'm hoping my wife doesn't search my posts....

[RenaissanceBiker]

Nobody understands anybody. This place is full of men and women all very busy eschewing their gender rolls and not understanding each other.

What are you trying to say?

[Monketey Ghost]

Are "gender rolls" delicious?

[TragicMonkey]

Are "gender rolls" delicious?

Skip the gender rolls and go for the sex bagels. They're a lot better.

[Monketey Ghost]

And there's already a hole in it!

For the record my wife never complains.

[Roxane]

What are you trying to say?
I have no idea.
See! Even women don't understand women!

Are "gender rolls" delicious?
of course! That's why I es chewing them. Mmm.

[Soapy Sam]

Do you really mean "eschew" or would "deny" be closer?

(I never actually heard "eschew" used in real life, but damn you look hot in that hat.)

[Monketey Ghost]

Dude, Roxane's avatar is a picture of me.

Thank you. :o

[Ignosticist]

Are women socially conditioned to be complainers?
Reply to Thread?

Are men socially conditioned to believe (and therefore complain) that women are socially conditioned to be complainers? :D

[sgtbaker]

Are men socially conditioned to believe (and therefore complain) that women are socially conditioned to be complainers? :D

Just incase you are directing that, the OP'er is female. I do think there is something to your point, though. It requires a broad stroke and some sampling to make the argument stand. Someone who complains once in a while, is not a complainer. You can stand outside and listen to a group of women talking, overhear one person gripe and then the rest agree and share a story. They are all complaining about one specific issue. They could joke about that issue and then move on to talk about other subject, having nothing to do with complaining. It doesn't matter, though, because you've heard a group of women agree that something sucks and they are now labeled complainers. Do men not gripe?

[Kaylee]

Just incase you are directing that, the OP'er is female. I do think there is something to your point, though. It requires a broad stroke and some sampling to make the argument stand. Someone who complains once in a while, is not a complainer. You can stand outside and listen to a group of women talking, overhear one person gripe and then the rest agree and share a story. They are all complaining about one specific issue. They could joke about that issue and then move on to talk about other subject, having nothing to do with complaining. It doesn't matter, though, because you've heard a group of women agree that something sucks and they are now labeled complainers. Do men not gripe?

Maybe that's it SgtBaker. I think know that both men and women gripe -- but perhaps men are less likely to show agreement by sharing similar stories. They just agree, although sometimes they might also crack an intentionally bad joke. At least that seems to be the case among the people I know -- but I'd be the first to say that's a really limited sample.

ETA: They're might also be some gender role playing going on -- even in the 2010s. Are men more likely to just agree with a gripe in a guys only conversation and be more likely to try to come up with a solution in a guy and gal conversation? I suspect that is the case.

ETA2: I just came up with a theory as to why men may be less likely to share stories in a scenario where one person has a complaint. Men tend to be more competitive then women. (In general -- not everyone and not always.) So perhaps, on an unconscious level when most women share stories they see themselves as being supportive but most men would see sharing stories in the same situation as an attempt at oneupmanship. So ... they may believe that the best way way they can show support in that scenario is to simply agree but not tell another similar story.

[Jekyll's Guest]

God, are you women still moaning in this thread?

[slingblade]

Just like a man, whining about other people whining...

[whatthebutlersaw]

I'm thinking of adopting "Whining!" as my catch phrase. In like Sheen!

[Darth Rotor]

I can't tell you how many times I've wanted to just say "Unless there's something I can do about it, I don't want to hear it."
I frequently say that. At home, and at the office, when the estrogen fest spills over into my space. I have some time for you, but if you wish to be a time bandit and attempt to use me as your grief sponge, you will be left talking to a wall.

[slingblade]

I frequently say that. At home, and at the office, when the estrogen fest spills over into my space. I have some time for you, but if you wish to be a time bandit and attempt to use me as your grief sponge, you will be left talking to a wall.

Then come say it to my husband, and also please explain to him exactly what he's doing wrong during his estrogen fest. ;)

[Jekyll's Guest]

I have some time for you, but if you wish to be a time bandit and attempt to use me as your grief sponge, you will be left talking to a wall.

Your sense cannon just exploded my sympathy fortress.

[TragicMonkey]

Your sense cannon just exploded my sympathy fortress.

The empathy detritus from the explosion has violated my mental me-ness space, and thus inspired me to create care barriers to prevent you from focus-burgling my rainbow of attention.

[Mark6]

Aaaahhh! Metaphores! And care-bear puns!

[truethat]

Hey sorry I haven't been on in so long. I wanted to examine this as a social hegemony type thing like Gramsci.

(google it if ya want)


The idea I was putting forth is that most women are not keen on participating in these "group dynamics" and yet feel like cold hearted bitches if they don't. So it perpetuates the cycle.

And yep I'm a woman. THis doesn't mean I don't like women. I have many female friends that often tell me they appreciate my honesty and logical assessment. However just as many times I get the "I'm not asking you to fix it just to listen."

I do realize that a busted laptop isn't on par with years of emotional abuse. But it does seem that in society women are encouraged to stay in the loop and talk about it for far longer than seems to be healthy. It seems IMHO that it just recreates trauma by running the tape over and over again. Like watching the Twin Towers collapse and the jumpers every week for 10 years.

What good does it do? I'm wondering if women feel they are SUPPOSED to do this because of cultural hegemony.

[Vorticity]

We haven't got a good quality sexbot yet.

Then all the men need to get together, stop dating, marrying, and sleeping with women and pool all the money you'll save into investing in R&D.

In fact, this is what many of us have done.

It's called the Internet.

[sgtbaker]

Hey sorry I haven't been on in so long. I wanted to examine this as a social hegemony type thing like Gramsci.

(google it if ya want)


The idea I was putting forth is that most women are not keen on participating in these "group dynamics" and yet feel like cold hearted bitches if they don't. So it perpetuates the cycle.

And yep I'm a woman. THis doesn't mean I don't like women. I have many female friends that often tell me they appreciate my honesty and logical assessment. However just as many times I get the "I'm not asking you to fix it just to listen."

I do realize that a busted laptop isn't on par with years of emotional abuse. But it does seem that in society women are encouraged to stay in the loop and talk about it for far longer than seems to be healthy. It seems IMHO that it just recreates trauma by running the tape over and over again. Like watching the Twin Towers collapse and the jumpers every week for 10 years.

What good does it do? I'm wondering if women feel they are SUPPOSED to do this because of cultural hegemony.

I think it's just how people process things and in my experience, I don't find it to be behavior confined to only women.

[sputnik]

Skipped to the end. Girls and Boys are different. I am a boy and I love girls. The French have it right...

vive la différence!