Surprise, surprise: Castro re-elected....

[headscratcher4]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&cid=589&ncid=734&e=1&u=/ap/20030307/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/cuba_politics

Who'd of thunk it?

[Drooper]

pass out the cigars...

[Jon_in_london]

Cuba has the best health-care system in the world, a higher rate of literacy than the US and if it werent for the US embargo would probably be rich and prosperous too.

So just as long as he keeps making the yanks look daft Ill keep singing

Aluta continua!! Viva Fidel!!

[Drooper]

Originally posted by Jon_in_london
Cuba has the best health-care system in the world, a higher rate of literacy than the US and if it werent for the US embargo would probably be rich and prosperous too.

So just as long as he keeps making the yanks look daft Ill keep singing

Aluta continua!! Viva Fidel!!

Unfortunately, only hard currnecy paying foreigners and elite bureaucrats see the best of the health system.

And you're right. who needs food when we got literacy.

[Tmy]

Don't you think its about time we dropped the whole Cuba grudge. I mean the whole communism v democracy thing is soooooo 1983.

Just think of the untapped baseball talent being wasted! Why Havanna could be the new home to the Expos!! For the benefit of Major League Baseball, we should kiss and make up.

Where's the harm.

[Drooper]

I agree. The embargo is completely counterproductive and does real harm to Cubans.

[headscratcher4]

If there were no embargo, there'd be no Castro. The embargo and the power that he reaps from it is the only thing sustaining that police state. THe embargo is one of the stupidest policies that the US has followed in recent years. The end of the embargo, Cuban-Americans visiting home, American tourists crowding the beaches, and the opening up of trade with Cuba would culminate in mass dis-satisfaction with Castro, it would also ease the way to a peaceful transition to a post-Castro Cuba.

Having said that, Jon, I'm glade that you are willing to cheer for a police state. I am sure that Castro would let you do so in Havana, unlike the million or so who fled the country because of a lack of freedom, and unlike the political prisoners who, for example, are doing time because they wanted their fellow citizens to use their literacy to be able to read economic reports and true economic information about their government...or, the petitioners for political change who are harassed and jailed by trying to exersize their "Legal" rights to petition the government...

[Q-Source]

Fidel Castro has the support of the population. That's why he has lasted for so long.

Thanks to the effort of people who believed in his political ideas, Cuba has achieved incredible goals. It has the lowest analphabetic level in Latin America for example. The best heath system, which is free by the way, the best sport team, etc.


Originally posted by headscratcher4

Having said that, Jon, I'm glade that you are willing to cheer for a police state. I am sure that Castro would let you do so in Havana, unlike the million or so who fled the country because of a lack of freedom, and unlike the political prisoners who, for example, are doing time because they wanted their fellow citizens to use their literacy to be able to read economic reports and true economic information about their government...or, the petitioners for political change who are harassed and jailed by trying to exersize their "Legal" rights to petition the government...

Yeah :rolleyes:

Thousands of Mexicans cross the border to the USA every year.

They are hungry, they don't find jobs in Mexico. What do they need freedom of speech for?

What do they need the best economic reports if they cannot read, or they cannot buy newspapers?

Do you think that the reasons of Cubans to leave their country are more justifiable than the reasons of Mexicans or any other migrants?

Q-S

[arcticpenguin]

I'd bet the embargo will be dropped shortly after Castro dies. When that happens, there "will be no shortage of leadership to fill the void". Can't remember who said that; maybe Dave Barry or Carl Hiassen.

[Tony]

Originally posted by Q-Source
Fidel Castro has the support of the population. That's why he has lasted for so long.




Yeah, they either support him or die. :rolleyes:

[headscratcher4]

Do you think that the reasons of Cuban to leave their country are more justifiable than the reasons of Mexicans or any other migrants?

Absolutely not. I believe that Mexican migrants are treated unfarily by the US, especially in comparison to Cubans -- who by virtue of their political clout have won special priviledges.

As to your larger point: Fidel Castro has the support of the population.

It is a meaningless assertion. How could you possibly tell? Has he had to run for election? Has he had to answer questions regarding his and his party's management of the government? Has he ever had to face public criticism, humor, oposition without the bully-boys of the neighborhood watch and the secret police to back him up?

You may be right, but how would anyone tell?

BTW, I am not an apologist for US policy. THe embargo is wrong. US policy is wrong. HOwever, Cuba is a police state, and you demonstrate that you are willing to be an apologist for the most naked kind of political opression. Bottom line is that you are suggesting that literacy and good healthcare can only come at the expense of freedom of thought, speech, academic endeavor? That basic individual liberty that you express here on these boards may be sacrificed to some vauge notion of public good -- a public good that the public itself never can discuss, amend, ratify or reject? A determination of public good that is controlled by one party and the whims of one man.

In the end, as I said above, Castro has the US embargo to thank for his position, for without the Devil to the north to justify his police state, it would have fallen years ago.

[Q-Source]

Originally posted by headscratcher4

It is a meaningless assertion. How could you possibly tell? Has he had to run for election?

Yes, he did. He won a presidential election few years ago.


You may be right, but how would anyone tell?

Go to Cuba and listen to the people. There are many who support Castro's Cuba, maybe they are indoctrinated but they adore him. They are the majority of people who will never lift a finger against him.


HOwever, Cuba is a police state, and you demonstrate that you are willing to be an apologist for the most naked kind of political opression. Bottom line is that you are suggesting that literacy and good healthcare can only come at the expense of freedom of thought, speech, academic endeavor? That basic individual liberty that you express here on these boards may be sacrificed to some vauge notion of public good -- a public good that the public itself never can discuss, amend, ratify or reject? A determination of public good that is controlled by one party and the whims of one man.

You know, I have been in Cuba many times, I have spoken with people there, especially with people who are against Castro.

I always ask them, why instead of complaining you people don't join together and protest against the government. I tell them that they would have the support of their relative$$$ in Miami and the $upport of the USA. But, they always say that there is no organisation among them, there is not a leader, there is apathy, rather than fear.

We know that Revolutions occur when oppresion is not tolerated, when people cannot stand anymore a dictatorship. Revolution is inevitable.

So I really wonder why in all these years, if there are so many disidents inside the Island, why they haven't done anything.

Why those hypocrites Cuban Americans whine from their comfortable houses in Miami?

Q-S

[corplinx]

Just curious, does Castro still have dissidents 86'ed in the middle of the night? I wasn't sure whether or not this practice still goes on in Cuba.

[arcticpenguin]

Originally posted by Q-Source

Why those hypocrites Cuban Americans whine from their comfortable houses in Miami?
Q-S
Wait until Castro dies, then you will see Miami Vice spill over onto Fantasy Island.

[Q-Source]

Originally posted by arcticpenguin

Wait until Castro dies, then you will see Miami Vice spill over onto Fantasy Island.

Yeah, I know that Cuba is going to be another little US Island. :(

[Tmy]

I sure the Cubans long for the pre-Castro days when there island was a bastion of freedom and prosperity!!! After Iraq, are we going to invade Cuba and free the oppressed people? Whos around to stop us.

Is there a good reason to not dump the embargo?

[arcticpenguin]

Originally posted by Tmy

Is there a good reason to not dump the embargo?
You can judge for yourself how "good" these reasons are, but

1) Castro is still in charge

2) Cuba is still communist

3) Ending the embargo would hurt sugar-growing economies in Hawaii and North Dakota.

[corplinx]

Originally posted by arcticpenguin

3) Ending the embargo would hurt sugar-growing economies in Hawaii and North Dakota.



We need cheap cuban sugar! I am sick of fructose. Look at every soda in the supermarket. All of them use fructose. It leaves a nasty film on your teeth and crap in the back of your throat.

[SFB]

headscratcher4:

I think the title of this thread shoulda been: "Surprise, Surprise, Surprise" a la Gomer Pyle.

:D

[Mike B.]

I know Castro has had a grudge against Costa Rica since 1968. It was over the very debate here. Castro made a speech saying that too much emphasis was put on freedom of speech and other things because there are other "rights" like health care, etc.

The President of Costa Rica asked him why Costa Rica was able to have both. Castro has not spoken to leaders from that country since then...

If people want to admire the Cuban economic system that is one thing, but why support dictatorship? Isn't that kind of like saying Mussolini wasn't so bad, he made the trains run on time?

It has been argued that Chile is one of the richer countries in Latin America because of Pinochet's brutal style of capitalism. Would people admire him? or is it only left wing dictators that are folk heros and freedom fighters?

(Oh yeah, and I think the embargo needs to go...darn politicans really like that Florida vote...)

[Tmy]

How many dictatorships are there? Would you count royalites in that to?

Hey is Pakistan considered a dictatotrship now. I thought Gen Whozits took ful power a while back.

There are no bad dictatorships, just bad dictators.!!!!

[Mike B.]

Originally posted by Q-Source


Yes, he did. He won a presidential election few years ago.



Go to Cuba and listen to the people. There are many who support Castro's Cuba, maybe they are indoctrinated but they adore him. They are the majority of people who will never lift a finger against him.



You know, I have been in Cuba many times, I have spoken with people there, especially with people who are against Castro.

I always ask them, why instead of complaining you people don't join together and protest against the government. I tell them that they would have the support of their relative$$$ in Miami and the $upport of the USA. But, they always say that there is no organisation among them, there is not a leader, there is apathy, rather than fear.

We know that Revolutions occur when oppresion is not tolerated, when people cannot stand anymore a dictatorship. Revolution is inevitable.

So I really wonder why in all these years, if there are so many disidents inside the Island, why they haven't done anything.

Why those hypocrites Cuban Americans whine from their comfortable houses in Miami?

Q-S

Yes as logical as ever Q-Source...:rolleyes:

You are right, using your logic, Saddam Hussien must not be so bad...I mean if he was all the people would have had a revolution and kicked him out by now...

Your idea that revolutions only occur when things are at the worst is not supported by the facts. Ceaucescu in Romania was in power for decades with his brutal rule, revolution only came when the Soviets withdrew their support of his regime. Revolutions come when there is a bit of weakness and have a chance to succeed.

Hell people in NK are starving yet no revolution...could it be that it is doomed to fail...

[headscratcher4]

Yes, he did. He won a presidential election few years ago.

Not bad, considering he was the only candidate, controlled all of the state media and allowed no questioning of his policies, history or government...popularity is a bitch. How could he have lost?

[Q-Source]

MikeB.
Yes as logical as ever Q-Source...

headscratcher4
Not bad, considering he was the only candidate, controlled all of the state media and allowed no questioning of his policies, history or government...popularity is a bitch. How could he have lost?

I am impressed with the level of your arguments, guys :rolleyes:

You think that it is "smart" to dismiss someone's contention with your sarcastic posts. It just shows that your really have nothing to say about Cuba, Fidel or anything else outside your little world.

Q-S

[Shane Costello]

Originally posted by Jon_in_london:
Cuba has the best health-care system in the world, a higher rate of literacy than the US and if it werent for the US embargo would probably be rich and prosperous too.

So just as long as he keeps making the yanks look daft Ill keep singing

Aluta continua!! Viva Fidel!!

Originally posted by Q-Source:
Fidel Castro has the support of the population. That's why he has lasted for so long.

Yes, he did. He won a presidential election few years ago.

If you ever wondered what comrade Lenin was on about when he talked about "useful idiots" then here are two of them.

[Segnosaur]

Originally posted by Q-Source

I am impressed with the level of your arguments, guys :rolleyes:

You think that it is "smart" to dismiss someone's contention with your sarcastic posts. It just shows that your really have nothing to say about Cuba, Fidel or anything else outside your little world.
Q-S
Sorry, but sometimes people make a posting that just soooooo stupid (such as your comment about Castro wining an election because he's popular) that it doesn't really deserve a 'real' reply, only contempt and ridicule.

I don't care if you think Castro has done a good job, or whether their health care system is good... To imply that an election in a one party state indicates how popular a person is is just stupid.

[karl]

Originally posted by Jon_in_london
Cuba has the best health-care system in the world, a higher rate of literacy than the US and if it werent for the US embargo would probably be rich and prosperous too.

A higher literacy rate than the US? According to whom? The resources I've been able to find suggest otherwise. See for example:

The Globalist (http://www.theglobalist.com/DBWeb/StoryId.aspx?StoryId=2553) (USA: 97%, Cuba: 96%)

IPPF country profile (http://ippfnet.ippf.org/pub/IPPF_Regions/IPPF_CountryProfile.asp?ISOCode=CU) (Cuba: 96% for men, 95% for women)

CIA World Factbook (http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/cu.html) (Cuba: 95.7%, USA: 97%)

[headscratcher4]

You think that it is "smart" to dismiss someone's contention with your sarcastic posts. It just shows that your really have nothing to say about Cuba, Fidel or anything else outside your little world.

You're right...so please take a moment to explain to me how winning an "election" in a one party state, where opposition is jailed, where the media is entirely in control of the state, and where there are no other candidates constitutes a realistic vote on policy or an indication of popularity of policy?

Would Castro win a real "election" without rigging the result -- probably, I've no reason to assume he wouldn't. However, how how would we/he know? It is a serious question. When has there been open discussion in Cuba about Castro and his policies, whether the state is going in the right direction, what the future might hold -- i.e. a discussion that wasn't a "yes" session for the policies of the state and Castro?

You recall, late last year, Saddam won %100 percent approval. He too, is very popular. Everyone on the street that is interviewed agrees. That is a true indication of popularity and correctness of policy, no?

Now, if you want to argue about the multitude of misteps the US has made with respect to not only Cuba, but US Domestic policy, and foriegn policy, you would probably get more agreement from me than you might imagine. However, don't belittle me because you can't do better than assert that the ruler of a police state who is AFRAID to hold elections, AFRAID of a free press, AFRAID of free Academia, AFRAID of free speech, is popular. HOW WOULD YOU KNOW? WHAT ALTERNATIVES TO MR. POPULARITY HAVE BEEN PERMITTED TO EXPRESS THEMSELVES?

I'm not very smart, but I recognize that Cuba is not democratic or free -- regardless of their wonderful healthcare system. WHat is your excuse? If it is only this sort of sorry reactuinary anti-Americanism, its not particularly brilliant or insightful. You can't tell me anything that is wrong with the US that I don't already know. You can't tell Castro anything that is wrong about Cuba at all -- at least if you are Cuban.

[Wayne Grabert]

Originally posted by headscratcher4
If there were no embargo, there'd be no Castro. The embargo and the power that he reaps from it is the only thing sustaining that police state. THe embargo is one of the stupidest policies that the US has followed in recent years. The end of the embargo, Cuban-Americans visiting home, American tourists crowding the beaches, and the opening up of trade with Cuba would culminate in mass dis-satisfaction with Castro, it would also ease the way to a peaceful transition to a post-Castro Cuba.
Yes!!!!!!!!!! I could not agree more!

[Tony]

An interesting article on Cuba and Cuban exiles.

http://www.msnbc.com/news/879566.asp?0dm=-14BK

[Jon_in_london]

Originally posted by Drooper


Unfortunately, only hard currnecy paying foreigners and elite bureaucrats see the best of the health system.


Thats just not true.

Originally posted by Drooper


And you're right. who needs food when we got literacy.

Fortunately, Cubans have both.

[Frank Newgent]

Originally posted by arcticpenguin

Wait until Castro dies, then you will see Miami Vice spill over onto Fantasy Island.

Originally posted by Q-Source


Yeah, I know that Cuba is going to be another little US Island. :(

So go now before it... (pondering who might read this...hmm. Segnosaur. Shane Costello. ¡Pendejos!)...uh, say isn't Cocoa Beach nice this time of year?

[Mike B.]

I wonder if Jon or Q-Source would have admired President Park in South Korea in the 1960s and 70s. He took a poor third world country and modernized it. He raised literacy and life expectancy. I am sure Headscratcher knows all about it.

Unfortunetly, he was a right-wing dictator.

Is he not admirable? Or does the Orwellian double think mean that a left-wing anti-American dictator is admirable for his accomplishments, but we must get really angry about right-wing dictatorships that might also improve the people's lives?

[Mike B.]

It is interesting there are right-wing sites on the internet that use the same logic as Q-Source and Jon.

Chile under the dictator Pinochet went from almost no economic growth and 1000% inflation under Allende to 8% growth per year and low inflation.

These sites admire Pinochet's economic record and excuse his brutality.

I really don't see that much difference between their postion and the admirers of Cuba

[Advocate]

Originally posted by Mike B.
It is interesting there are right-wing sites on the internet that use the same logic as Q-Source and Jon.

Chile under the dictator Pinochet went from almost no economic growth and 1000% inflation under Allende to 8% growth per year and low inflation.

These sites admire Pinochet's economic record and excuse his brutality.

I really don't see that much difference between their postion and the admirers of Cuba

Except that Pinochet stepped down and Chile has had elections. So has South Korea. Does anyone think Castro would ever step down like Pinochet did? Pinochet was brutal, but at least he stepped down and restored democracy to his country. Castro has not.

[headscratcher4]

Originally posted by Mike B.
I wonder if Jon or Q-Source would have admired President Park in South Korea in the 1960s and 70s. He took a poor third world country and modernized it. He raised literacy and life expectancy. I am sure Headscratcher knows all about it.

Unfortunetly, he was a right-wing dictator.

Is he not admirable? Or does the Orwellian double think mean that a left-wing anti-American dictator is admirable for his accomplishments, but we must get really angry about right-wing dictatorships that might also improve the people's lives?

Another example is Singapore...clean, efficient, good healthcare, high-literacy rates and, also, essentially a right-wing police state. I expect that Jon and Q might condemn the anti-democratic tendencies in Singapore while pining for Castro and his romantic little revolution.

In the end, Cuba's problem will always be the United States, there isn't much they can do about it, we are a giant on their boarder, and now we have a very large, Cuban-American population (so many in Cuba have family here and vice versa). Q may not like it, but we are part of Cuba's future. It seems to me that the challenge is to envision a future where the excesses and repression of the Castro regime are minimized, while also minimizing the influence and revenge motivations of the Miami Cubans. IT will not be easy. We need to end the Boycot, but we also need travelers and tourists who are now visiting the island to lose the blinders and romance of the "revolution". They are staying at beach resorts that support a repressive police state...resorts that only Cuban prostitutes and "workers" ever get to see (apartide -- remember that from repressive South Africa?).

I am not suggesting the end to tourism, in fact, I think tourism is good for Cuba, just opening your eyes and knowing that there are men and women in Jail in Cuba for questioning the brilliance of Castro and his henchmen, who languish and starve while people cha-cha the night away.

BTW, one of the worst things about the US right now is arrogance. The sense that it can not be questioned by its friends or by the world. It is a sorry state of blindness.

Castro is just as arrogant...he will not be questioned, never questions his convictions and believes himself to be always right...how, may I ask, is that different from the George Bush...save that Bush will have to CONTEST and election in two years...and I can right now write this sentence without fear of going to Jail...George Bush is an Idiot!

[Advocate]

Originally posted by headscratcher4
...and I can right now write this sentence without fear of going to Jail...George Bush is an Idiot!

I am sure you could call George Bush an idiot in Cuba also. In fact they probably like that sort of thing ;)

[Wayne Grabert]

Originally posted by headscratcher4

I can right now write this sentence without fear of going to Jail...George Bush is an Idiot! Alright, hippie, I'm reporting you to Operation TIPS. (http://www.whitehouse.org/news/2002/072302.asp)

(Check out the link. It's a good one!)

[Q-Source]

Originally posted by headscratcher4


You're right...so please take a moment to explain to me how winning an "election" in a one party state, where opposition is jailed, where the media is entirely in control of the state, and where there are no other candidates constitutes a realistic vote on policy or an indication of popularity of policy?

Did I say that this is not true?

I just said that Castro won the presidential elections. I was going to explain why I believe this is so. But unfortunately, this place is full of intorelant right-wing sympathizers and they attack without even listening to my arguments.


Would Castro win a real "election" without rigging the result -- probably, I've no reason to assume he wouldn't. However, how how would we/he know? It is a serious question. When has there been open discussion in Cuba about Castro and his policies, whether the state is going in the right direction, what the future might hold -- i.e. a discussion that wasn't a "yes" session for the policies of the state and Castro?

We will never know if Castro would win a real and democratic election.

The only thing we all know is that Castro got a hight participation of people in that election (I think it was about 70%). It is true, he was the only candidate. However, this was an incredible opportunity for people to express their opinion, and they didn't do anything.

My friend there, he is a contrarrevolutionario, he is always whining about Castro. I asked him, did you vote for Castro?, and he said, yes, I "had" to do it. What the F*ck!, nobody was watching you, you should have refused to cross his name!. :eek:

So, this is what the majority of people did. Instead of staying in their houses, they went to vote. Instead of refusing to cross Castro's name, they did it.

They lost their chance to express their disagreement against the regimen. There is apathy, rather than fear. This is what I mean when I say that he has the "support" of the population.

Why the dissidents in Miami have not done anything about it?
They would have the support of the US government, I am sure.
The reason is that in all these years, they haven't been able to organise any strong group of contrarrevolucionarios inside Cuba.

The feelings of Cubans towards dissidents in Miami is not that good as you may believe.

Q-S


P.S. I am not going to respond to any offensive post, so please do not bother if someone wants to insult me, instead of discussing my arguments.

[Shane Costello]

Originally psoted by Q-Source;
I just said that Castro won the presidential elections. I was going to explain why I believe this is so. But unfortunately, this place is full of intorelant right-wing sympathizers and they attack without even listening to my arguments.

But you didn't attempt to make an argument to begin with?

The only thing we all know is that Castro got a hight participation of people in that election (I think it was about 70%). It is true, he was the only candidate. However, this was an incredible opportunity for people to express their opinion, and they didn't do anything

Maybe because in a one party police state, where opposition to the regime is jailed and the media is under government control, people decide that discretion is the better part of valour? Maybe in a totalitarian state it isn't as simple as staying in your house or spoiling your vote, since even those options mightn't be available?

They lost their chance to express their disagreement against the regimen. There is apathy, rather than fear. This is what I mean when I say that he has the "support" of the population.

That isn't "support".

[Wayne Grabert]

Originally posted by Shane Costello
That isn't "support". I believe she meant that his regime has legitimacy. That is, its authority is accepted by the people even if they aren't enthusiastic about it.

[aerocontrols]

of someone who spent 11 months in Cuba.

link (http://slate.msn.com/id/114404/entry/114407/)

Friday has just a bit about the health care system.

MattJ

[Wayne Grabert]

Originally posted by Mike B.
If people want to admire the Cuban economic system that is one thing, but why support dictatorship?
I can't think of anything to admire about the Cuban economic system. Castro is holding Cuba back. Once Cuba becomes liberated, it has the potential to be a great country. The key will be to keep corruption out of the picture. I know it is impossible to eliminate corruption completely. We have it here, but what is important is keeping it down to level where people don't lose all trust in their institutions. Corruption breeds poverty.

You mentioned Costa Rica. Costa Rica is probably the most prosperous country in Central America. It also has a stable democracy.

I agree with the opinion that the embargo should go. I think that the dictatorship would soon follow. (By "soon" I don't mean months, but years, but probably not decades.)

[Drooper]

Originally posted by Jon_in_london


Thats just not true.



Fortunately, Cubans have both.

Sorry it is true. And there is a link just above here that gives yet another indication that it is so.

I have read numerous accounts of the healthcare system in Cuba.

On one had some top quality hospitals, unfortunately reserved for those paying hard currency for treatment - traditionally health tourists from other communist countries and local political elite. Also, if you were a western tourist, the $$$$$$ guranteed by your travel incurance would ensure you see these hospitals.

For the rest of the populous, the healthcare system is good for a country as ppor as Cuba, but way way below usual western standards. Also, everything is diverted into hospitals. There is no GP care to speak of.

Along with the education system, Cuba spend busket loads of money on these two trophy goods. That gives Cuba a health system, poor by western standards and grossly elitist, but way beyond their financial means.

In the meantime, many many people in Cuba die each year because houses just fall down on them, because so many resources are pushed into education and health at the expense of all else.

Cuba is a grotesque example of the economic inefficiency that arises from Communism or any other dictatorial centrally planned economy. In that regard it is not much different to North KOrea, except that latter spend an overwhelming amount of it income on miliitary goods.

People in Cuba work hard, usually illegally in the black market on multiple jobs, to earns the barest amount to live.


edited to add this:

Jon, this quote is typical of things I have read many times over about Cuba (it comes from the link to Slate in an earlier post:

Slate (http://slate.msn.com/id/114404/entry/114627/)

I asked him about the care he had received in the hospital, and he looked around nervously before saying, "The state means well, and the doctors work hard, but the hospitals are not in good condition. Not in good condition, and they do not give very good care."

And this is why you don't hear too much about it it:

Eduardo believes most Cubans feel like he feels today: depressed, frustrated, closely watched, and afraid.

[my emphasis]

[Mike B.]

Originally posted by Wayne Grabert

I can't think of anything to admire about the Cuban economic system. Castro is holding Cuba back. Once Cuba becomes liberated, it has the potential to be a great country. The key will be to keep corruption out of the picture. I know it is impossible to eliminate corruption completely. We have it here, but what is important is keeping it down to level where people don't lose all trust in their institutions. Corruption breeds poverty.

You mentioned Costa Rica. Costa Rica is probably the most prosperous country in Central America. It also has a stable democracy.

I agree with the opinion that the embargo should go. I think that the dictatorship would soon follow. (By "soon" I don't mean months, but years, but probably not decades.)

Costa Rica also does not have armed forces, so any money that would be thrown into that can be spent on other things like education and health care. It also cuts down on the danger of coups.

Costa Rica is an example of a country that is relatively poor, but spends its resources on its people, and at the same time respects human rights and democracy.

[Advocate]

Originally posted by Wayne Grabert
I believe she meant that his regime has legitimacy. That is, its authority is accepted by the people even if they aren't enthusiastic about it.

Don't you think it takes a little more than the people being intimidated into not resisting for a regime to have legitimacy?

[Wayne Grabert]

Originally posted by Advocate


Don't you think it takes a little more than the people being intimidated into not resisting for a regime to have legitimacy?
Fair enough, but people can and do resist dictators. Castro, believe it or not, has his supporters. Q-Source has pointed that out and what she says I've heard before from people who've been to Cuba.

[Advocate]

Originally posted by Mike B.


Costa Rica also does not have armed forces, so any money that would be thrown into that can be spent on other things like education and health care. It also cuts down on the danger of coups.

Costa Rica is an example of a country that is relatively poor, but spends its resources on its people, and at the same time respects human rights and democracy.

Doesn't this create a risk of invasion? Although I am sure the US would not allow a neighboring state to invade Costa Rica, but this too presents a problem since it means they are relying on others for their defense. IMHO defense is an obligation of the state. There is something to be said for not maintaining so strong an army that it could be perceived as a threat by your neighbors, but being totally without armed forces seems to me to be almost an invitation to your enemies. It doesn't make an attack right, but it does make it more likely and as we all know, you can't always trust nations to do what is right.

[Advocate]

Originally posted by Wayne Grabert

Fair enough, but people can and do resist dictators. Castro, believe it or not, has his supporters. Q-Source has pointed that out and what she says I've heard before from people who've been to Cuba.

Like most regimes, he has supporters and his opponents, but the majority of the people just go along and hope to be left alone. I think that is true in most countries, certainly most dictatorships. We could argue the proportions of each of these three groups, but there really is no way to get any good data, so what would be the point?

[Q-Source]

Advocate

Like most regimes, he has supporters and his opponents, but the majority of the people just go along and hope to be left alone. I think that is true in most countries, certainly most dictatorships. We could argue the proportions of each of these three groups, but there really is no way to get any good data, so what would be the point?

The point is that Castro was re-elected and won the elections because the majority of people in his country are apathic. So, we cannot deny that the population has given legitimacy to his dictatorship whether or not they like it.

Shane:

Maybe because in a one party police state, where opposition to the regime is jailed and the media is under government control, people decide that discretion is the better part of valour? Maybe in a totalitarian state it isn't as simple as staying in your house or spoiling your vote, since even those options mightn't be available?

Nobody denies this fact.

Explain why we have had revolutions and civil wars during all human history?

People react to a policy state. Cubans would have the support of the US government. Why they haven't done anything?

I told you the reasons that I have heard. The truth is that the communist indoctrination in Cuba has done an excellent job. You wouldn't believe what people say about Fidel and his revolution. They hate him, but they also admire him.

Q-S

[Advocate]

Originally posted by Q-Source


The point is that Castro was re-elected and won the elections because the majority of people in his country are apathic. So, we cannot deny that the population has given legitimacy to his dictatorship whether or not they like it.

How many were apathetic and how many were simply afraid of the consequences if it was found out that they voted against Castro? In a regime like that you are risking a lot to dissent.

Nobody denies this fact.

Explain why we have had revolutions and civil wars during all human history?

People react to a policy state. Cubans would have the support of the US government. Why they haven't done anything?

Presumably they weighed the risks of revolt with the benefits if it succeeds and determined the risk to be unacceptable. Does this mean that any regime which intimidates its people enough to keep them from dissenting but does not oppress them quite enough to cause a revolt is legitimate? That seems like an awfully weak criteria for legitimacy

I told you the reasons that I have heard. The truth is that the communist indoctrination in Cuba has done an excellent job. You wouldn't believe what people say about Fidel and his revolution. They hate him, but they also admire him.

Q-S

I am sure there are people that love Castro. Some people may actually have benefitted from the revolution. (Cuba was no paradise before the revolution either.) Others have simply been so indoctrinated that they simply believe what they are told. As for admiration, to some extent I admire him too for being able to survive all this time. But it doesn't mean I like him or think he is a good leader, just a good survivor.

[Mike B.]

Originally posted by Advocate


Doesn't this create a risk of invasion? Although I am sure the US would not allow a neighboring state to invade Costa Rica, but this too presents a problem since it means they are relying on others for their defense. IMHO defense is an obligation of the state. There is something to be said for not maintaining so strong an army that it could be perceived as a threat by your neighbors, but being totally without armed forces seems to me to be almost an invitation to your enemies. It doesn't make an attack right, but it does make it more likely and as we all know, you can't always trust nations to do what is right.

I don't disagree. I am sure Costa Rica always had in mind the US would not allow an invasion of a country so close to the canal zone in Panamma which was US territory up until 1999.

However, my point was that a country did not need to be a dictatorship to have a social welfare system. Castro always crushes opposition under the excuse that his opponents are "counter-revolutionary" and wish to take away the health care, etc. from the revolution. Costa Rica has been able to have social welfare and democracy. Costa Rica called Castro on this in the late 60s and he has never had an answer to them.