What do u know about..Israel [Archive]

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AN@S

27th July 2002, 02:20 AM

Little-Known Facts About Israel

1. Did you know that non-Jewish Israelis cannot buy or lease land in Israel? A Jew from any country in the world is guaranteed citizenship in Israel, while the Palestinians who have been there for centuries are oppressed and persecuted.

2.Did you know that instead of sewing an insignia on clothing to distinguish race (like the Germans did to the Jews before WW2), Palestinian license plates in Israel are color coded to distinguish Jews from non-Jews?

3. Did you know that East Jerusalem, the West Bank, Gaza, and the Golan Heights are all considered by the entire world community, including the United States and the United Nations, to be occupied territory and NOT part of the State of Israel?

4. Did you know that Israel allots 85% of the water resources for Jews, and the remaining 15% is divided among all Palestinians in the territories? For example in Hebron, 85% of the water is set aside for about 400 Jewish settlers, while the remaining 15% is distributed among Hebron's 120, 000 Palestinians?

5.Did you know that the United States awards Israel $5 billion in aid each year from American tax dollars?

6.Did you know that US aid to Israel ($1.8 billion annually in military aid alone) exceeds the aid the US grants to the entire African continent? This aid is used both to buy American weaponry and to buy arms made in Israel.

7. Did you know that Israel is awaiting an additional $4 billion worth of American military hardware, including new F-16s and Apache and Blackhawk helicopters. As Israel's main ally and supporter internationally, the United States is committed to maintaining the Jewish state's "qualitative edge" in weapons over its neighbors.

8. Did you know that the U.S. administration has notified Congress on numerous occasions that Israel has violated the rules on how US-supplied weapons are used? (In 1978, 1979 and 1982 during fighting in Lebanon, and once after Israel's bombing of an Iraqi nuclear reactor in 1981.)

9. Did you know that Israel is the only country in the Middle East that refuses to sign the nuclear non-proliferation treaty and bars international inspections from its sites?

10. Did you know that high-ranking military officers in the Israeli Defense Forces have admitted publicly that unarmed prisoners of war have been summarily executed by the Israeli forces?

11. Did you know that Israel blew up an American diplomatic facility in Egypt and attacked a US warship in international waters (the USS Liberty), killing 33 and wounding 177 American sailors and the US did nothing about it? (Imagine if an Islamic country like Iraq did this!)

12. Did you know that Israel stands in defiance of 69 United Nations Security Council Resolutions?

13. Did you know that Israel is explicitly dedicated to the policy of maintaining a distinct Jewish character?

14. Did you know that Israel's current Prime Minister, Ariel Sharon, was found by an Israeli court to be "personally and directly responsible" for the Sabra and Shatilla massacre in Lebanon where more than a thousand innocent Palestinian men, women, and children were axed to death or lined up and shot in cold blood?

15. Did you know that on May 20, 1990, a group of unarmed Palestinian laborers were lined up and murdered by an Israeli solider as they sat waiting for transportation back to Gaza? The terrified laborers who gathered in an area of southern Israel known as Rishon Lezion (known to Palestinians by its Arabic name Oyon Qara) handed their ID cards to the Israeli soldier. The soldiers ordered the distressed laborers to kneel down and face the ground and unexpectedly showered them with a barrage of bullets, killing seven and wounding many others. Needless to say, the soldier was not charged with any crime.

16. Did you know that until as recently as 1988, Israelis were permitted to run "Jews Only" job ads?

17. Did you know that the Israeli Foreign Ministry pays six US public relations firms to promote a "positive image" of Israel to the American public?

18. Did you know that Sharon's coalition government includes a party--Molodet--which advocates ethnic cleansing by openly calling for the forced expulsion of all Palestinians from the occupied territories?

19. Did you know that recently-declassified documents indicate that David Ben-Gurion approved of the forced expulsion of Arabs from all Palestininan territory in 1948?

20. Did you know that the former chief rabbi of Israel, Rabbi Ovadia Yossef, who is also a founder and spiritual leader of the religious Shas party (Israel's third largest political party) openly advocates a 'Final Solution' to annihilate the Palestinians? Speaking at the widely broadcast sermon marking the last Passover, he declared of the Palestinians: "The Lord shall return their deeds on their own heads, waste their seed and exterminate them, devastate them and vanish them from this world. It is forbidden to be merciful to them. You must send missiles to them and annihilate them. They are evil and damnable."

21. Did you know that Palestinian refugees make up the largest portion of the refugee population in the world?

22. Did you know that Palestinian Christians are considered the "living stones" of Christianity because they are the direct descendants of the disciples of Jesus Christ? And the Palestinian Christians stand united with their Muslim brethren in the struggle against the Israeli occupation.

23. Did you know that despite a ban on torture by Israel's High Court of Justice, torture has continued unabated by Shin Bet interrogators on Palestinian prisoners?

24. Did you know that despite every Israeli attempt to disrupt Palestinian education, Palestinians have the highest ratio of PhDs per capita in the world?

25. Did you know that the right of self-determination is guaranteed to every human being under the Universal Declaration of Human Rights [December, 1948], yet Palestinians were/are expected to negotiate for this right under the Oslo Accords?

26. Did you know that despite what is widely perpetuated and written in the history books that the Arabs attacked Israel in the 1967 war, it was Israel who attacked the Arab countries first, capturing Jerusalem and the West Bank, and called the attack a pre-emptive strike?

27. Did you know that, as an occupying power, Israel has a particular responsibility under the Geneva Conventions to protect Palestinian civilians?

28. Did you know that, despite Ariel Sharon's public call for a unilateral ceasefire, Israeli soldiers have not stopped shooting, killing or bulldozing Palestinian homes? The most recent example of this is the murder of three innocent women who were shot by an Israeli tank as they sat in their tent!

29. Did you know that the Zionists have been trying to destroy Masjid al-Aqsa and the Dome of the Rock for the last 50 years by digging underground tunnels beneath the sites to weaken its foundation causing it to collapse?

30) Nelson Mandela called the Israeli government an apartheid regime, just like South Africa used to be

John Bryce

27th July 2002, 04:59 AM

Here are the "facts" I can refute right away:

8. Did you know that the U.S. administration has notified Congress on numerous occasions that Israel has violated the rules on how US-supplied weapons are used? (In 1978, 1979 and 1982 during fighting in Lebanon, and once after Israel's bombing of an Iraqi nuclear reactor in 1981.

The U.S. Arms Export Control Act (section 4) states that U.S. arms may be used for the purposes of "legitimate self-defense" only. I could find no evidence of the U.S. congress objecting to the way in which Israel uses U.S. supplied arms.

9. Did you know that Israel is the only country in the Middle East that refuses to sign the nuclear non-proliferation treaty and bars international inspections from its sites?

Israel is the only country in the Middle East that has (not officially) nuclear weapons, and signing the nuclear non-proliferation treaty and allowing international inspections is voluntary.

11. Did you know that Israel...attacked a US warship in international waters (the USS Liberty), killing 33 and wounding 177 American sailors and the US did nothing about it?

Yes, I did:

USS Liberty (http://www.ussliberty.com/)

(Imagine if an Islamic country like Iraq did this!)

Iraq did:

USS Stark FFG-31 (http://www.usswaddell.com/Memories/uss_stark.htm)

14. Did you know that Israel's current Prime Minister, Ariel Sharon, was found by an Israeli court to be "personally and directly responsible" for the Sabra and Shatilla massacre in Lebanon where more than a thousand innocent Palestinian men, women, and children were axed to death or lined up and shot in cold blood?

The Sabra and Shatilla massacres were horrible and sickening events that outraged Arab and Jew alike, but the fact is Ariel Sharon was held "indirectly responsible" for the massacres, and not "personally and directly" responsible.

26. Did you know that despite what is widely perpetuated and written in the history books that the Arabs attacked Israel in the 1967 war, it was Israel who attacked the Arab countries first, capturing Jerusalem and the West Bank, and called the attack a pre-emptive strike?

Yes, Israel attacked first to start the 1967 Six Day War; but you left out a lot of important information:

The Six Day War (http://www.idf.il/english/history/sixday.stm)

AN@S

27th July 2002, 08:50 AM

The U.S. Arms Export Control Act (section 4) states that U.S. arms may be used for the purposes of "legitimate self-defense" only. I could find no evidence of the U.S. congress objecting to the way in which Israel uses U.S. supplied arms.

If you couldn't find any evidence about the U.S. congress objecting to the way in which Israel uses U.S. supplied arms, it's your problem…. I am talking about facts.

Iraq did:
I know that Iraq did, but the U.S is the enemy of Iraq and it's normal to be a kind of war between the two countries, and when Iraq did that, the American revenge was terrible but when Israel attacked the US warship the US did nothing about it.

The Sabra and Shatilla massacres were horrible and sickening events that outraged Arab and Jew alike, but the fact is Ariel Sharon was held "indirectly responsible" for the massacres, and not "personally and directly" responsible.
Again, you can say what you like to say but I am here to tell the truth.

Yes, Israel attacked first to start the 1967 Six Day War; but you left out a lot of important information:
When talking about Israel we have to remember that Israel is a people living in the other's land, and the Palestinians have the right to do everything for their grandfather's land …

Note: sorry for my English it's not very good, because it's not my original language.
My language is Arabic.

aerocontrols

27th July 2002, 09:12 AM

Originally posted by AN@S

I know that Iraq did, but the U.S is the enemy of Iraq and it's normal to be a kind of war between the two countries, and when Iraq did that, the American revenge was terrible but when Israel attacked the US warship the US did nothing about it.

You think that Iraq was the US's enemy in 1987? It was my understanding that we were helping them in their war with Iran at that time. Our Navy was exhanging fire fairly regularly with the Iranian Navy, and even attacked Iranian oil platforms.

Perhaps the fact is that we did 'nothing' about the Stark, either.

MattJ

Troll

27th July 2002, 01:05 PM

Originally posted by AN@S
Little-Known Facts About Israel

1. Did you know that non-Jewish Israelis cannot buy or lease land in Israel? A Jew from any country in the world is guaranteed citizenship in Israel, while the Palestinians who have been there for centuries are oppressed and persecuted.

And examples of oppression and persecution are....? Persecutionthose that would take a gun to a party and kill Israelis? Persecution of those that have bomb making materials and plans as to what day and time to blow themselves up along with Israeli school kids?

2.Did you know that instead of sewing an insignia on clothing to distinguish race (like the Germans did to the Jews before WW2), Palestinian license plates in Israel are color coded to distinguish Jews from non-Jews?

Did you know we sorta do the same thing in the US with Varying states? You're Pennsylvanian or you're one of the degenerates according to your car's tags. :D

3. Did you know that East Jerusalem, the West Bank, Gaza, and the Golan Heights are all considered by the entire world community, including the United States and the United Nations, to be occupied territory and NOT part of the State of Israel?

Yes it is occupied terrotory. It was captured from Jordan, Egypt and Syria when they were preparing to attack and invade Israel. Maybe they shouldn't have done that, what do you think?

4. Did you know that Israel allots 85% of the water resources for Jews, and the remaining 15% is divided among all Palestinians in the territories? For example in Hebron, 85% of the water is set aside for about 400 Jewish settlers, while the remaining 15% is distributed among Hebron's 120, 000 Palestinians?

And how many are dying of thirst?

5.Did you know that the United States awards Israel $5 billion in aid each year from American tax dollars?

I'm really not that big on my tax dollars going to anyone that didn't add to the pot. That includes France and other countries that still owe us

6.Did you know that US aid to Israel ($1.8 billion annually in military aid alone) exceeds the aid the US grants to the entire African continent? This aid is used both to buy American weaponry and to buy arms made in Israel.

Did you know this number does not match the previous number you mentioned and that therefore you should, yourself, have to wonder about that?

7. Did you know that Israel is awaiting an additional $4 billion worth of American military hardware, including new F-16s and Apache and Blackhawk helicopters. As Israel's main ally and supporter internationally, the United States is committed to maintaining the Jewish state's "qualitative edge" in weapons over its neighbors.

Israel shops smart. So what? Would you rather they buy from the chinese and Russians like most Arabs nations?

8. Did you know that the U.S. administration has notified Congress on numerous occasions that Israel has violated the rules on how US-supplied weapons are used? (In 1978, 1979 and 1982 during fighting in Lebanon, and once after Israel's bombing of an Iraqi nuclear reactor in 1981.)

1982? Can you supply a link?

9. Did you know that Israel is the only country in the Middle East that refuses to sign the nuclear non-proliferation treaty and bars international inspections from its sites?

Iraq?

10. Did you know that high-ranking military officers in the Israeli Defense Forces have admitted publicly that unarmed prisoners of war have been summarily executed by the Israeli forces?

Uh, execution is the means of punishment. I've never heard of any country allowing prisoners to be armed. Well, except Afghanistan. Look how that turned out? But if you think they should be armed then I suggest you first tell Jonny Michael Spann's wife that.

11. Did you know that Israel blew up an American diplomatic facility in Egypt and attacked a US warship in international waters (the USS Liberty), killing 33 and wounding 177 American sailors and the US did nothing about it? (Imagine if an Islamic country like Iraq did this!)

Imagining in process, and well, I suppose they would react like China did when we hit their embassy. Be pissed, but realized the acciden/ fog of war thing. Imagine those bastards forgiving us and not attacking.

12. Did you know that Israel stands in defiance of 69 United Nations Security Council Resolutions?

Name one nation not in defiance of several? And 69 is a cool number

13. Did you know that Israel is explicitly dedicated to the policy of maintaining a distinct Jewish character?

Proof?

14. Did you know that Israel's current Prime Minister, Ariel Sharon, was found by an Israeli court to be "personally and directly responsible" for the Sabra and Shatilla massacre in Lebanon where more than a thousand innocent Palestinian men, women, and children were axed to death or lined up and shot in cold blood?

And they were killed by who?

15. Did you know that on May 20, 1990, a group of unarmed Palestinian laborers were lined up and murdered by an Israeli solider as they sat waiting for transportation back to Gaza? The terrified laborers who gathered in an area of southern Israel known as Rishon Lezion (known to Palestinians by its Arabic name Oyon Qara) handed their ID cards to the Israeli soldier. The soldiers ordered the distressed laborers to kneel down and face the ground and unexpectedly showered them with a barrage of bullets, killing seven and wounding many others. Needless to say, the soldier was not charged with any crime.

Proof?

16. Did you know that until as recently as 1988, Israelis were permitted to run "Jews Only" job ads?

Well until the late 60's Whites only signs were okay in southern States. In 1989 I was in Japan and saw signs outside bars saying "Japanese only" Who has been around longer to evolve as a nation?

17. Did you know that the Israeli Foreign Ministry pays six US public relations firms to promote a "positive image" of Israel to the American public?

All countries advertise. It helps tourism. And who wants to tour a place with negative ads?

18. Did you know that Sharon's coalition government includes a party--Molodet--which advocates ethnic cleansing by openly calling for the forced expulsion of all Palestinians from the occupied territories?

Did you know that the US congress has racists and wife beaters and possibly racketteers, murderers and other criminals?

19. Did you know that recently-declassified documents indicate that David Ben-Gurion approved of the forced expulsion of Arabs from all Palestininan territory in 1948?

Wasn't aware of that specifically. Proof? Link? But also bear in mind that every country with a history of 50 years or more has their skeletons in the closet. Big whoop, expect it and shock will come less often to you

20. Did you know that the former chief rabbi of Israel, Rabbi Ovadia Yossef, who is also a founder and spiritual leader of the religious Shas party (Israel's third largest political party) openly advocates a 'Final Solution' to annihilate the Palestinians? Speaking at the widely broadcast sermon marking the last Passover, he declared of the Palestinians: "The Lord shall return their deeds on their own heads, waste their seed and exterminate them, devastate them and vanish them from this world. It is forbidden to be merciful to them. You must send missiles to them and annihilate them. They are evil and damnable."

Did you ever hear of the word extremist? You know like Le Penn in france, Falwell in the States etc. etc

21. Did you know that Palestinian refugees make up the largest portion of the refugee population in the world?
[QUOTE]
[B]
22. Did you know that Palestinian Christians are considered the "living stones" of Christianity because they are the direct descendants of the disciples of Jesus Christ? And the Palestinian Christians stand united with their Muslim brethren in the struggle against the Israeli occupation.

Go figure religious views

23. Did you know that despite a ban on torture by Israel's High Court of Justice, torture has continued unabated by Shin Bet interrogators on Palestinian prisoners?

Well I'm actually for torture in some cases. Can you provide specific cases so I can form my own judgement as to whether or not I feel they warranted torture, or are you hoping i would think all torture is bad and evil and side with you on that one?

24. Did you know that despite every Israeli attempt to disrupt Palestinian education, Palestinians have the highest ratio of PhDs per capita in the world?

Proof? and I believe it's the education that shows the Israelis as training their children to drink the blood of Palestinian children for certain holidays that is the educaion that is trying to be stopped.

25. Did you know that the right of self-determination is guaranteed to every human being under the Universal Declaration of Human Rights [December, 1948], yet Palestinians were/are expected to negotiate for this right under the Oslo Accords?

I'll have to look through that one a little more before it gets tossed out

26. Did you know that despite what is widely perpetuated and written in the history books that the Arabs attacked Israel in the 1967 war, it was Israel who attacked the Arab countries first, capturing Jerusalem and the West Bank, and called the attack a pre-emptive strike?

Yeah pre-emptive strikes happen all the time. It's known on the streets as not getting sucker punched.

27. Did you know that, as an occupying power, Israel has a particular responsibility under the Geneva Conventions to protect Palestinian civilians?

And they try to a lot more than the Palestinian suicide bombers and gunmen do. The Isrealis actually aim their guns

28. Did you know that, despite Ariel Sharon's public call for a unilateral ceasefire, Israeli soldiers have not stopped shooting, killing or bulldozing Palestinian homes? The most recent example of this is the murder of three innocent women who were shot by an Israeli tank as they sat in their tent!

You mean the unfortunate deaths of 3 possibly innocent women during a battle with palestinian gunmen at a camp?

29. Did you know that the Zionists have been trying to destroy Masjid al-Aqsa and the Dome of the Rock for the last 50 years by digging underground tunnels beneath the sites to weaken its foundation causing it to collapse?

Proof? Link?

30) Nelson Mandela called the Israeli government an apartheid regime, just like South Africa used to be

And I, Troll, say the opposite. What? He's more right becuase of popularity?

Major Billy

27th July 2002, 02:25 PM

ANaS, did you know that copying someone else's website (http://www.iap.org/littleknownfacts.htm) , without giving proper credit, is called plagiarism?

Troll

27th July 2002, 02:31 PM

Originally posted by Major Billy
ANaS, did you know that copying someone else's website (http://www.iap.org/littleknownfacts.htm) , without giving proper credit, is called plagiarism?

well damned if that doesn't cover bias in the source

Michael Redman

27th July 2002, 02:44 PM

Hey AN@S:

Did you know that many Americans don't blindly support Israel, don't categorically hate Palestinians, Arabs, Muslims, or anyone else, and many don't believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ?

Did you know that anyone claiming otherwise is a liar, and should be treated as such, no matter what their position or title is?

Did you know that people on this forum aren't going to believe what you say if you can't provide that facts that support it?

John Bryce

27th July 2002, 03:14 PM

If you couldn't find any evidence about the U.S. congress objecting to the way in which Israel uses U.S. supplied arms, it's your problem…. I am talking about facts.

What your arguement is (as I understand it) is objection of U.S. supplied arms to Israel being used contrary to the rules that covern U.S. arms exports.

Section 4 of the act states that U.S. arms may be used for the purposes of "legitimate self-defense" only.

This brings us to the important question: what is the definition of "legitimate self-defense"?

I know that Iraq did, but the U.S is the enemy of Iraq and it's normal to be a kind of war between the two countries, and when Iraq did that, the American revenge was terrible but when Israel attacked the US warship the US did nothing about it.

The attack on the Stark happened during the Iran/Iraq war (http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/ops/war/iran-iraq.htm). Iraq was not an enemy of the U.S. at this time. The attack was, apparently, a mistake. What revenge did the U.S. take against Iraq for this attack on the Stark?

The Liberity was attacked by Isreali air and sea forces during the 1967 Arab/Isreali war, apparently, by mistake.

Again, you can say what you like to say but I am here to tell the truth.

Report of the Commission of Inquiry (http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/go.asp?MFAH0ign0) into the events at the refugee camps in Beirut, 8 February 1983.

Jedi Knight

27th July 2002, 04:31 PM

Originally posted by AN@S
Little-Known Facts About Israel

Hey An@s, are you from Syria? You may be meeting some of our American soldiers in the future lol. American soldiers always wanted to vacation in the Bekka Valley. Soon, with the help of laser-guided bombs, they just might do it. Do you think Allah will be with you if it happens?

1. Did you know that non-Jewish Israelis cannot buy or lease land in Israel? A Jew from any country in the world is guaranteed citizenship in Israel, while the Palestinians who have been there for centuries are oppressed and persecuted.

Did you know that Jordan, and Arab country, passed laws recently prohibiting Palestinian Arabs the right to own land in Jordan? Seems pandemic to the region then.

2.Did you know that instead of sewing an insignia on clothing to distinguish race (like the Germans did to the Jews before WW2), Palestinian license plates in Israel are color coded to distinguish Jews from non-Jews?

In the United States every state has a color-coded license plate to distinguish "citizens". So what?

3. Did you know that East Jerusalem, the West Bank, Gaza, and the Golan Heights are all considered by the entire world community, including the United States and the United Nations, to be occupied territory and NOT part of the State of Israel?

No, they are not. That is media propaganda.

4. Did you know that Israel allots 85% of the water resources for Jews, and the remaining 15% is divided among all Palestinians in the territories? For example in Hebron, 85% of the water is set aside for about 400 Jewish settlers, while the remaining 15% is distributed among Hebron's 120, 000 Palestinians?

Did you know that every arab government in the middle east and beyond is intolerant, stealing the wealth of its citizens and leaving them in abjunct poverty? Imagine how much water all that stolen money could buy.

5.Did you know that the United States awards Israel $5 billion in aid each year from American tax dollars?

Actually it is much higher than that. You are leaving out our secret military aid which will enable Israel to lay waste to the entire middle east if they are ever nationally threatened. I just wanted to make sure you understood the American position.

6.Did you know that US aid to Israel ($1.8 billion annually in military aid alone) exceeds the aid the US grants to the entire African continent? This aid is used both to buy American weaponry and to buy arms made in Israel.

Did you know that before radical Islamist terrorists flew aircraft into the WTC murdering thousands of American citizens that America was the largest contributor of humanitarian aid to Afghanistan? Did you know that American bullets and bombs saved millions of Muslim lives in the former Yugoslavia--a conflict other muslim states feared? Did you know that the US is the largest contributor of aid to Egypt and other arab states?

7. Did you know that Israel is awaiting an additional $4 billion worth of American military hardware, including new F-16s and Apache and Blackhawk helicopters. As Israel's main ally and supporter internationally, the United States is committed to maintaining the Jewish state's "qualitative edge" in weapons over its neighbors.

Israel is going to need those helicopters so they can fire Hellfire missiles and use 20MM air-cooled mini-guns on radical Islamist terrorist forces and organized armies under the command of dictators like Syria, Iraq and Iran. I am confident Israel will put them to good use.

8. Did you know that the U.S. administration has notified Congress on numerous occasions that Israel has violated the rules on how US-supplied weapons are used? (In 1978, 1979 and 1982 during fighting in Lebanon, and once after Israel's bombing of an Iraqi nuclear reactor in 1981.)

Has anyone from Syria notified Hezbollah about how their Iranian supplied weapons are used against Israeli civilians? Seems like a fair Israeli use to me.

9. Did you know that Israel is the only country in the Middle East that refuses to sign the nuclear non-proliferation treaty and bars international inspections from its sites?

I don't blame them. How many folks lined up to demand inspection of Hitler's gas chambers and concentration camps when the Jews were lined up and sent into them during World War II? The Jews are naturally suspicious and I don't blame them. If 73% of your race was wiped out in 9 years, you would be suspicious too. Every nuke that rolls off of Israel's production lines is one more tool against intolerance and evil.

10. Did you know that high-ranking military officers in the Israeli Defense Forces have admitted publicly that unarmed prisoners of war have been summarily executed by the Israeli forces?

That happens in every war. Look at Daniel Pearl and the countless other Jews that were executed by Islamic military forces. If there was no war, there would be no killing. If there is war, there will be killing. Killing goes hand in hand with war.

11. Did you know that Israel blew up an American diplomatic facility in Egypt and attacked a US warship in international waters (the USS Liberty), killing 33 and wounding 177 American sailors and the US did nothing about it? (Imagine if an Islamic country like Iraq did this!)

The Israelis had a bad day that day. You don't condemn them forever over a war mistake. The US makes war mistakes all the time. That is the nature of war. If the radical Islamists weren't trying to destroy Israel, the USS Liberty would not have been attacked. It is all the Islamists fault.

12. Did you know that Israel stands in defiance of 69 United Nations Security Council Resolutions?

Well you can expect them to reject anti-semitism at every opportunity.

13. Did you know that Israel is explicitly dedicated to the policy of maintaining a distinct Jewish character?

That is because there is only 15 million Jews left in the entire world. If Hitler didn't wipe them all out in World War II, population character wouldn't even be an issue.

14. Did you know that Israel's current Prime Minister, Ariel Sharon, was found by an Israeli court to be "personally and directly responsible" for the Sabra and Shatilla massacre in Lebanon where more than a thousand innocent Palestinian men, women, and children were axed to death or lined up and shot in cold blood?

Were you there when this happened? There is also talk of Palestinians killing their own during that operation. Do you have proof of your accusations against Sharon? The Palestinians kill their own all the time. Every week there is an article about it.

15. Did you know that on May 20, 1990, a group of unarmed Palestinian laborers were lined up and murdered by an Israeli solider as they sat waiting for transportation back to Gaza? The terrified laborers who gathered in an area of southern Israel known as Rishon Lezion (known to Palestinians by its Arabic name Oyon Qara) handed their ID cards to the Israeli soldier. The soldiers ordered the distressed laborers to kneel down and face the ground and unexpectedly showered them with a barrage of bullets, killing seven and wounding many others. Needless to say, the soldier was not charged with any crime.

Everyday there are arabs gunning down innocent, unarmed Israelis in cars and in their homes. How can you complain about retaliation for those attacks? Stop the killing of Israeli citizens and the killings against Islamists will end.

16. Did you know that until as recently as 1988, Israelis were permitted to run "Jews Only" job ads?

Hey, it is their country. You have a country--put ads in your own newspapers.

17. Did you know that the Israeli Foreign Ministry pays six US public relations firms to promote a "positive image" of Israel to the American public?

A great idea. A little healthy PSYOPS is good for American minds.

18. Did you know that Sharon's coalition government includes a party--Molodet--which advocates ethnic cleansing by openly calling for the forced expulsion of all Palestinians from the occupied territories?

There is no such thing as an "occupied territory". If you send an army into another country to destroy that country and the targeted country kicks your ass and takes your land, it is not "occupied"--it becomes part of the targeted country. If Islamic troops didn't attack, the land would still be in the hands of the Syrian tyrannical government. I guess that you shouldn't have invaded!

19. Did you know that recently-declassified documents indicate that David Ben-Gurion approved of the forced expulsion of Arabs from all Palestininan territory in 1948?

Well the arabs attacked Israel the instant it was formed. Even the British pulled out to allow the attack. If you have people machine-gunning your civilians, do you allow them to remain in your country or do you expel them? You expel them at the earliest possible convenience, at the end of a bayonet if necessary.

20. Did you know that the former chief rabbi of Israel, Rabbi Ovadia Yossef, who is also a founder and spiritual leader of the religious Shas party (Israel's third largest political party) openly advocates a 'Final Solution' to annihilate the Palestinians? Speaking at the widely broadcast sermon marking the last Passover, he declared of the Palestinians: "The Lord shall return their deeds on their own heads, waste their seed and exterminate them, devastate them and vanish them from this world. It is forbidden to be merciful to them. You must send missiles to them and annihilate them. They are evil and damnable."

The arabs have been trying to do it to them--what, you can't take what your people dish out?

21. Did you know that Palestinian refugees make up the largest portion of the refugee population in the world?

That is because they breed out of control. If every female pops out 10 kids and Israeli females only pop out 1 or 2, is that somehow Israel's fault?

22. Did you know that Palestinian Christians are considered the "living stones" of Christianity because they are the direct descendants of the disciples of Jesus Christ? And the Palestinian Christians stand united with their Muslim brethren in the struggle against the Israeli occupation.

There are Palestinian civilians who do well living in the Israeli state but other populations are intimidated by radical Islamists. This is nothing new--the popularity of belonging to a culture group.

23. Did you know that despite a ban on torture by Israel's High Court of Justice, torture has continued unabated by Shin Bet interrogators on Palestinian prisoners?

Well if the Palestinians wouldn't walk into Israel with Semtex bombs strapped to their bodies there would be no requirement to seek additional information. Since the information is not given willingly to prevent further attacks upon innocent civilians, that information is extracted. The people it is extracted from are murderous criminals--they have a right to cooperate, that is all.

24. Did you know that despite every Israeli attempt to disrupt Palestinian education, Palestinians have the highest ratio of PhDs per capita in the world?

It all starts with the grammar school text-books that teach young Palestinians to hate the Jews too.

25. Did you know that the right of self-determination is guaranteed to every human being under the Universal Declaration of Human Rights [December, 1948], yet Palestinians were/are expected to negotiate for this right under the Oslo Accords?

No arab country gives their citizens the power of that declaration--so maybe you should start at home.

26. Did you know that despite what is widely perpetuated and written in the history books that the Arabs attacked Israel in the 1967 war, it was Israel who attacked the Arab countries first, capturing Jerusalem and the West Bank, and called the attack a pre-emptive strike?

I love it when arabs talk about this. If you didn't have all your planes on the runway with bombs loaded onto them and with all your troops massing at Israel's border, there would not have been a need to respond pre-emptively. You asked for it--Israel gave it to you. By the way, the reason Israel took the Golan Heights from you is because the Syrians with their terrorist allies put artillery pieces there to reign destruction down on Israeli cities. It was taken to stop Syrian military agression.

27. Did you know that, as an occupying power, Israel has a particular responsibility under the Geneva Conventions to protect Palestinian civilians?

Israel isn't an occupying power. Israel is the sovereign power.

28. Did you know that, despite Ariel Sharon's public call for a unilateral ceasefire, Israeli soldiers have not stopped shooting, killing or bulldozing Palestinian homes? The most recent example of this is the murder of three innocent women who were shot by an Israeli tank as they sat in their tent!

I don't see the Palestinian women trying to stop their children from shooting at Israeli soldiers. When civilians proivide cover for military forces in war, civilians die. It happens in all wars.

29. Did you know that the Zionists have been trying to destroy Masjid al-Aqsa and the Dome of the Rock for the last 50 years by digging underground tunnels beneath the sites to weaken its foundation causing it to collapse?

That is a lie. The Dome of the Rock was damaged by Islamic engineers who are trying to convert it into a mosque. The foundations have cracked specifically because of this new construction. All things to "Allah", right? The "conversion" must continue. If Islam gets it way there will not be a religious site left untouched in the middle east.

30) Nelson Mandela called the Israeli government an apartheid regime, just like South Africa used to be

Nelson Mandela is a communist who declared in his own memoirs that he should be tried for war crimes. Mandela was schooled in Moscow and with Soviet help operated against the South African people withh terrorist activity. Mandela and Arafat, remarkably, were given the Nobel Prize even though they were two of the most dangerous terrorist leaders of the 20th Century. Up until now terrorism seems to have its dividends, right?

Perhaps that is changing, however.

I hope these facts help your world-view.

Jedi Knight

Ben Shniper

27th July 2002, 04:32 PM

Ben Shniper

27th July 2002, 04:46 PM

I have a question, about that "PhD" thing...

How is this? If Palestinians were as smart as you say they are, why don't they build hydroponic farms, nuclear weapons, and all that? What are all these PhD's doing in a non-country where they are regularly shot at by Arafat, Terrorists, and Israeli crossfire?

http://www.miraserve.com/pressrev/EN24oct01.htm
"About two-thirds of all the PhDs awarded in Saudi Arabia are in Islamic studies."

Is it similar in Palestine?

Israel, for its part, has the highest percentage of doctors per person, AND the highest number of research papers published per person! It also develops, builds, and launches its own weapons and weapon systems. Palestinians build, develop, and launch a couple really crappy missiles at the settlements every other day. Israel launched several of its own satelites. Palestinians strap bombs to babies to take pictures. Who is smarter?

-Ben

Jedi Knight

27th July 2002, 05:10 PM

Originally posted by Ben Shniper
I have a question, about that "PhD" thing...

How is this? If Palestinians were as smart as you say they are, why don't they build hydroponic farms, nuclear weapons, and all that? What are all these PhD's doing in a non-country where they are regularly shot at by Arafat, Terrorists, and Israeli crossfire?

http://www.miraserve.com/pressrev/EN24oct01.htm
"About two-thirds of all the PhDs awarded in Saudi Arabia are in Islamic studies."

Is it similar in Palestine?

Israel, for its part, has the highest percentage of doctors per person, AND the highest number of research papers published per person! It also develops, builds, and launches its own weapons and weapon systems. Palestinians build, develop, and launch a couple really crappy missiles at the settlements every other day. Israel launched several of its own satelites. Palestinians strap bombs to babies to take pictures. Who is smarter?

-Ben

When I went into Israel to check it out I found it to be a pretty remarkable system and the people were cool too. It is too bad there are so many barbarians trying to destroy it.

Jedi Knight

John Bryce

28th July 2002, 02:18 AM

It also develops, builds, and launches its own weapons and weapon systems.

Israel no longer dependent on U.S. military assistance (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/134433612_israelmilitary09.html)

Palestinians build, develop, and launch a couple really crappy missiles at the settlements every other day.

Palestinians launch new rocket at Israel (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/134402973_mideast11.html)

AN@S

28th July 2002, 09:40 AM

Thank u all:
There are some concepts we have to accept before we continue our discussions:
1. You have to wait for me sometime to collect the information and proofs, because someone have asked me for proofs of what I said and it's need some time.
2. You have to know that I don't hate any American or any Jew, I just hate the Zionists.
3. When talking with me you have to forgot the wrong idea that the Arabs are terrorists, bloody….etc, and you have to remember that not all the Arabs like Osama ben laden.
That's all ….
Bye

Jedi Knight

28th July 2002, 09:50 AM

Originally posted by AN@S
Thank u all:
There are some concepts we have to accept before we continue our discussions:
1. You have to wait for me sometime to collect the information and proofs, because someone have asked me for proofs of what I said and it's need some time.
2. You have to know that I don't hate any American or any Jew, I just hate the Zionists.
3. When talking with me you have to forgot the wrong idea that the Arabs are terrorists, bloody….etc, and you have to remember that not all the Arabs like Osama ben laden.
That's all ….
Bye

Hey, when is your government going to end its occupation of Lebanon? When is your government going to stop housing Hezbollah and other terrorist factions in the Bekka Valley? When is your government going to recognize the State of Israel as a legitimate nation-state?

Maybe you should be running Syria!

JK

aerocontrols

28th July 2002, 10:15 AM

I hope you come back, and in the meantime, I hope you reflect on your own words:

From your post:

Originally posted by AN@S
I just hate the Zionists.

From your signature:

Originally posted by AN@S
Love for all , Hatred for none

You either believe the first or the second. It cannot be both.

MattJ

Troll

28th July 2002, 12:37 PM

John Bryce

28th July 2002, 12:39 PM

1. You have to wait for me sometime to collect the information and proofs, because someone have asked me for proofs of what I said and it's need some time.

This is a very good idea. I look forward to reviewing your information. Always try to confirm your information first. Think critically about everything you read. Also, I have noticed some posters here can be harsh - don't let that get to you. Present your arguements, and if they are good, they will be able to stand on their own.

2. You have to know that I don't hate any American or any Jew, I just hate the Zionists.

I am sure that there are hardliners on both sides, but always try to see it from the other person's point of view. With this subject matter (Israel/Arab States) emotions can run high, so seeing it from the other side can be very difficult when you strongly disagree; however, consider all arguements, and then try to sort out the thruth from the fiction.

3. When talking with me you have to forgot the wrong idea that the Arabs are terrorists, bloody….etc, and you have to remember that not all the Arabs like Osama ben laden.

How very true.

Bjorn

28th July 2002, 03:25 PM

Originally posted by AN@S
Thank u all:
There are some concepts we have to accept before we continue our discussions:
1. You have to wait for me sometime to collect the information and proofs, because someone have asked me for proofs of what I said and it's need some time.
An excellent point - always be prepared to prove your claims and statements.

It might sometimes be even better to post links to the proof (or rather websites or articles supporting your view) at the time you make your claim.

This way, others can check, read, evaluate the sources and so on, before they start arguing the point you tried to make.

Remember that you have the same right to ask others to prove their points. Do so, all the time - some posters are notoriously not proving anything they claim. ;)

Edited because I forgot to add:

And then you never post things like this again:

If you couldn't find any evidence about the U.S. congress objecting to the way in which Israel uses U.S. supplied arms, it's your problem…. I am talking about facts.

Finding proof is your problem - you claimed, you prove!

AN@S

28th July 2002, 07:27 PM

hey ....
first of all , these are some links to support my speech:

1- Mr.John Bryce:

Israel is the only country in the Middle East that has (not officially) nuclear weapons, and signing the nuclear non-proliferation treaty and allowing international inspections is voluntary.

in this link (http://www.acronym.org.uk/npt/2002us3.htm) you can find information that israel is one of the countries that remain outside the Treaty.

The Sabra and Shatilla massacres were horrible and sickening events that outraged Arab and Jew alike, but the fact is Ariel Sharon was held "indirectly responsible" for the massacres, and not "personally and directly" responsible.

here (http://www.futuretvnetwork.com/justice/) you can find a full information about the Sabra and Shatilla massacres and the Sharon's responsibility about this massacres.

2-Mr. Troll :

And examples of oppression and persecution are....? Persecutionthose that would take a gun to a party and kill Israelis? Persecution of those that have bomb making materials and plans as to what day and time to blow themselves up along with Israeli school kids?

The Israeli school kids don't have the right to be a school kids in the other's land...if the israeli school kids still in thier original countries no one has the right kill them...

Did you know we sorta do the same thing in the US with Varying states? You're Pennsylvanian or you're one of the degenerates according to your car's tags

I know... and all the countries in the world do that ... but you don't make differents between african americans and white americans for example , or between the arab americans and the other americans...

Yes it is occupied terrotory. It was captured from Jordan, Egypt and Syria when they were preparing to attack and invade Israel. Maybe they shouldn't have done that, what do you think?

And we'll captured it again in the next Arabic-Israeli war

And how many are dying of thirst?

the stealth is stealth

Name one nation not in defiance of several? And 69 is a cool number

here (http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/0393/9303040.htm) you can find an article about a 66 U.N. Resolutions Israel Ignores

And they were killed by who?
that doesn't change this fact

This is a lot of proofs from various american newspapers about the killing of the unarmed Palestinian laborers , here (http://massmurder.dyns.net/ami_popper.htm)

3-Mr.Major Billy:

ANaS, did you know that copying someone else's website , without giving proper credit, is called plagiarism?
So you can tell that website's admins to put me in jail :D

4- Mr.Michael Redman

Did you know that many Americans don't blindly support Israel, don't categorically hate Palestinians, Arabs, Muslims, or anyone else, and many don't believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ?
Yes I did... and thank you...but I think that most americans are affected with zionists propaganda.

5- Mr.Jedi Knight:

Hey An@s, are you from Syria? You may be meeting some of our American soldiers in the future lol. American soldiers always wanted to vacation in the Bekka Valley. Soon, with the help of laser-guided bombs, they just might do it. Do you think Allah will be with you if it happens?

nonsense:cool:

3. Did you know that East Jerusalem, the West Bank, Gaza, and the Golan Heights are all considered by the entire world community, including the United States and the United Nations, to be occupied territory and NOT part of the State of Israel?

No, they are not. That is media propaganda

Media propaganda?So you can check it from the
official website of the UN (http://www.un.org/documents/ga/res/56/a56r061.pdf)

Israel is going to need those helicopters so they can fire Hellfire missiles and use 20MM air-cooled mini-guns on radical Islamist terrorist forces and organized armies under the command of dictators like Syria, Iraq and Iran. I am confident Israel will put them to good use.
That proves that israel is a very very weak (country) without the united states support:D

Stop the killing of Israeli citizens and the killings against Islamists will end.
You made two mistakes here:
1- We can't stop killing the (people) who occupied our land by force.
2- The israeli killing is against the muslims and christians not only the islamists.

Hey, it is their country
Their country????:confused:

If you have people machine-gunning your civilians, do you allow them to remain in your country or do you expel them?
But the armed people are the owner of the land and the israelis are the occupation force..

It all starts with the grammar school text-books that teach young Palestinians to hate the Jews too.
School books teach the young palestinians and arabs to hate Zionists NOT jews...

No arab country gives their citizens the power of that declaration
This is the first time you says something true..

Israel isn't an occupying power. Israel is the sovereign power.
Israel is a some persons came from many countries from 50 years ago... and this land is an Arabic land for centuries how can you say that Israel is the sovereign power?

I don't see the Palestinian women trying to stop their children from shooting at Israeli soldiers.
Imagine that a burglar entered your house by force,and he killed your family ... I think you'll fight him with your flesh , I don't think you'll say to him :"you're welcome"..

That is a lie. The Dome of the Rock was damaged by Islamic engineers who are trying to convert it into a mosque
Convert it into mosque!!!!??!!! but it has been a mosque for centuries

Mike B.

28th July 2002, 08:30 PM

AN@S,

You said that Palestine was Arabic land for centuries.

Did you know that before the Arabs invaded and "occupied" it that it was Greek and Roman land for centuries?

Did you know the Arab invasions also destroyed Germanic kingdoms that had existed in Northern Africa for centuries and "occupied" that land?

and so forth...and so forth...

I know the Islamic countries like to complain about the Crusades. Has there ever been an apology from them about the Byzantime Empire?;)

Jedi Knight

28th July 2002, 09:00 PM

Originally posted by AN@S

5- Mr.Jedi Knight:

Media propaganda?So you can check it from the
official website of the UN (http://www.un.org/documents/ga/res/56/a56r061.pdf)

There are more anti-semites in the UN than there was in Nazi Germany and its agent states in World War II. The UN has lost a lot of credibility. Why do you think the US has not signed off on the International Criminal Court and hosts of other treaties?

That proves that israel is a very very weak (country) without the united states support:D

No, it shows how pissed off the Jews are from being gassed by the Nazis and making sure that crap doesn't happen to them again. The best thing that could happen with Israel is for them to get their hands on intercontinental ballistic nuclear missiles so their fate is irrevocably tied into the world's fate. If I was strategizing for them there would be silos all over the Israeli state and no country would dare attack them.

You made two mistakes here:
1- We can't stop killing the (people) who occupied our land by force.

"Your" land is a myth. Your armies marched on Israel, they got spanked and Israel took the land in military victory, recognized fully by the international community. Clever "occupied territory" propaganda doesn't change that truth. As long as the killing continues, the more angry the Israelis become and the real possibility of arab populations dying in nuclear fireballs may become reality. Choose as you see fit.

2- The israeli killing is against the muslims and christians not only the islamists.

Whoever takes up arms against the Israeli state is fair game by the Israeli military forces. That is how war is.

Their country????:confused:

Let me help you with your confusion. Israel is a sovereign nation-state.

But the armed people are the owner of the land and the israelis are the occupation force..

Not true--see above.

School books teach the young palestinians and arabs to hate Zionists NOT jews...

Baloney. I have seen the textbooks. They teach the young to hate Jews--all the Jews.

This is the first time you says something true..

That is why machineguns are firing all the time--because of the "selective" interpretation of the truth.

Israel is a some persons came from many countries from 50 years ago... and this land is an Arabic land for centuries how can you say that Israel is the sovereign power?

Show me proof there was ever an arab country where Israel is. There never was in the entire written history of man.

Imagine that a burglar entered your house by force,and he killed your family ... I think you'll fight him with your flesh , I don't think you'll say to him :"you're welcome"..

Are you referring to the Israelis again? Israelis are not burglars inside their own country. If you think they are, tell your arab pals to pack up and move to an arab country.

Convert it into mosque!!!!??!!! but it has been a mosque for centuries

The Dome of the Rock is the most disputed 72 acres of land on earth. The destruction on the foundations of the Dome were caused by arabs, not the Israelis.

JK

renata

28th July 2002, 09:29 PM

Posted by AN@S

The Israeli school kids don't have the right to be a school kids in the other's land...if the israeli school kids still in thier original countries no one has the right kill them...

Enlighten me, which countries? Where should Jews go? Is there no place in the world for Jews to live in peace?
Jews came to Israel mostly places where Hitler did not finish his vision. The irony is amazing- Jews left Europe because of Holocaust, repression, pogroms, etc. Now Jews are told to go back to Europe.

That proves that israel is a very very weak (country) without the united states support

If Jews are a weak weak countries why did it whip multiple Arab invasions? How weak are Arabs, then? Arabs had Russian support, didn't they? Must be so insulting to Arab ego to have a little tiny country kick their butt again and again and again. This is all this is about, isn't it? Why are Arabs obessessed with Israel?
Have you read the Arab Human Development Report published by The U.N. Development Program and the Arab Fund for Economic and Social Development.

Here is an article by Thomas Friedman about it. Emphasis is mine.
Arabs at the Crossroads
By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN

President Bush was right to declare that the Palestinians need to produce decent governance before they can get a state. Too bad, however, that he didn't say that it's not only the Palestinians who need radical reform of their governance — it's most of the Arab world.

By coincidence, though, some other important folks had the courage to say that just this week: The U.N. Development Program, which published, along with the Arab Fund for Economic and Social Development, a brutally honest Arab Human Development Report yesterday analyzing the three main reasons the Arab world is falling off the globe. (The G.D.P. of Spain is greater than that of all 22 Arab states combined.) In brief, it's due to a shortage of freedom to speak, innovate and affect political life, a shortage of women's rights and a shortage of quality education. If you want to understand the milieu that produced bin Ladenism, and will reproduce it if nothing changes, read this report.

While the 22 Arab states currently have 280 million people, soaring birthrates indicate that by 2020 they will have 410 to 459 million. If this new generation is not to grow up angry and impoverished, in already overcrowded cities, the Arab world will have to overcome its poverty — which is not a poverty of resources but a "poverty of capabilities and poverty of opportunities," the report argues.

Though the report pays homage to the argument that the Arab-Israeli conflict and Israeli occupation have been both a cause and an excuse for lagging Arab development, it refuses to stop with that explanation.

To begin with, it notes that "the wave of democracy that transformed governance in most of Latin America and East Asia in the 1980's and early 1990's has barely reached the Arab states. This freedom deficit undermines human development." Using a standard freedom index, the report notes that out of seven key regions of the world the Arab region has the lowest freedom score — which includes civil liberties, political rights, a voice for the people, independence of the media and government accountability. In too many Arab states women can't vote, hold office or get access to capital for starting businesses. "Sadly, the Arab world is largely depriving itself of the creativity and productivity of half its citizens," the report says of Arab women.

On education, the report reveals that the whole Arab world translates about 300 books annually — one-fifth the number that Greece alone translates; investment in research is less than one-seventh the world average; and Internet connectivity is lower than in sub-Saharan Africa. In spite of progress in school enrollment, 65 million Arab adults are still illiterate, almost two-thirds of them women. No wonder half the Arab youths polled said they wanted to emigrate.

The report concludes that "What the region needs to ensure a bright future for coming generations is the political will to invest in Arab capabilities and knowledge, particularly those of Arab women, in good governance, and in strong cooperation between Arab nations. . . . The Arab world is at a crossroads. The fundamental choice is whether its trajectory will remain marked by inertia . . . and by ineffective policies that have produced the substantial development challenges facing the region; or whether prospects for an Arab renaissance, anchored in human development, will be actively pursued."

Well said — and here's the best part: The report was written by a "group of distinguished Arab intellectuals" who believed that only an "unbiased, objective analysis" could help the "Arab peoples and policy-makers in search of a brighter future."

There is a message in this bottle for America: For too many years we've treated the Arab world as just a big dumb gas station, and as long as the top leader kept the oil flowing, or was nice to Israel, we didn't really care what was happening to the women and children out back — where bad governance, rising unemployment and a stifled intellectual life were killing the Arab future.

It's time to stop kidding ourselves. Getting rid of the Osamas, Saddams and Arafats is necessary to change this situation, but it's hardly sufficient. We also need to roll up our sleeves and help the Arabs address all the problems out back. The bad news is that they've dug themselves a mighty deep hole there. The good news, as this report shows, is that we have liberal Arab partners for change. It's time we teamed up with them, and not just with the bums who got them into this mess.

Here is a link to the report (http://www.undp.org/rbas/ahdr/) so you can read it yourself.

here you can find a full information about the Sabra and Shatilla massacres and the Sharon's responsibility about this massacres.

Tell me, who actually did the killing? Did Jews do the killing? No, it was Christian Lebanese Forces militia which massacred up to 2,000 Palestinian men, women and children in Sabra and Shatila refugee camps in Muslim west Beirut in 1982.

CNN (http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/01/26/beirut.arrests/index.html)

Some advice- independent sources would get you more credibility here.

2. You have to know that I don't hate any American or any Jew, I just hate the Zionists.

Define Zionists for me. Are they the army? Israelis living in Israel? Settlers? What differentiates Zionists and Jews?

Bjorn

28th July 2002, 09:45 PM

Originally posted by Jedi Knight
The Dome of the Rock is the most disputed 72 acres of land on earth. The destruction on the foundations of the Dome were caused by arabs, not the Israelis.
JK Can you explain this, please? Links, references? :confused:

John Bryce

28th July 2002, 09:45 PM

In this link you can find information that israel is one of the countries that remain outside the Treaty.

I did not say Isreal signed the nuclear non-proliferation treaty. What I am asking is: what is wrong with Isreal not signing the nuclear non-proliferation treaty? From the list you provided:

9. Did you know that Israel is the only country in the Middle East that refuses to sign the nuclear non-proliferation treaty and bars international inspections from its sites?

The statement implies that Israel is doing something wrong by not signing the nuclear non-proliferation treaty. I argue that signing the treaty is voluntary, and Isreal has the choice of signing or not signing just like any country. The statement singles out Israel for not signing the treaty, but what about Iraq that has signed the treaty?

"The NPT has been severely tested over the past decade by Iraq... Inspections in Iraq after the 1991 Gulf War revealed a major secret effort to acquire nuclear weapons. Iraq has also produced undeclared nuclear material in violation of its NPT safeguards agreement with the IAEA.

If Iraq (an enemy of Israel) violates the nuclear non-proliferation treaty it signed, then why should Israel sign the treaty?

As an added note:

Nuclear Weapons Database: Israel's Possible Nuclear Delivery Systems (http://www.cdi.org/issues/nukef&f/database/isnukes.html#jericho1)

Here you can find a full information about the Sabra and Shatilla massacres and the Sharon's responsibility about this massacres

14. Did you know that Israel's current Prime Minister, Ariel Sharon, was found by an Israeli court to be "personally and directly responsible" for the Sabra and Shatilla massacre in Lebanon where more than a thousand innocent Palestinian men, women, and children were axed to death or lined up and shot in cold blood?

The Israeli report is available online. Please see the link to the report I provided in one of my previous posts. Here is a quote from the report:

We have found, as has been detailed in this report, that the Minister of Defense [Ariel Sharon] bears personal responsibility.

I'll admit it, aside from the word, "directly" the statement (14) about Ariel Sharon looks correct to me.

Troll

29th July 2002, 06:53 AM

Originally posted by AN@S

The Israeli school kids don't have the right to be a school kids in the other's land...if the israeli school kids still in thier original countries no one has the right kill them...

And we'll captured it again in the next Arabic-Israeli war

School books teach the young palestinians and arabs to hate Zionists NOT jews...

I actually find these three things to be the most disturbing, and yet evidence of the typical views in the region.

You claim that it's okay to kill school children simply because they are not where you want them to be? And if people in the US thought the same about school kids not born in the US, you'd have no problem with hearing how Arab and Hispanic children were being killed everyday?

The second comment shows there's more of a lust for war than peace. Yes I know it's just one persons opinion being stated here, but I have a very strong feeling it's representative of a lot more people's opinions.

If they are taught to hate the Zionists and not Jews, why are they growing up to kill Jews before finding out if they are Zionists?

Jedi Knight

29th July 2002, 07:22 AM

Originally posted by Bjorn
Can you explain this, please? Links, references? :confused:

Bjorn, I refuse to do your research for you! This is the last time I am going to say it too.

Go to a search engine and type "Dome of the Rock" into it.

Get your own links!

Jedi Knight

CapelDodger

29th July 2002, 07:47 AM

A few points re some of the above:

The Arab states of the region (Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon) were not preparing to attack Israel in 1967. That explains why they weren't prepared when Israel attacked. Nasser was indeed blowing off about attacking but engaging in overblown rhetoric is one of many Arabic cultural flaws. If there had been real intentions, why wasn't Iraq involved? On the other hand, the 1948/9 borders were never intended by Israel as the final end of the Zionist project (see various quotes from Ben Gurion to the Peel Commission and the stated position of the settlers and Sharonists regarding 'Judea and Samaria'). They were just fought to a standstill by 1949. The '67 war was a war that was going to happen, the only question being when.

Renata: referring to the generally dismal state of Arab culture doesn't change the fact that the Palestinian people are well-educated. In fact, the state of Arab culture doesn't actually have any bearing on the behaviour of Zionists, few of whom are Arab. And Sharon's use of the Phalangists to do the actual killing absolves him of the crime? Please. And look at his previous career; he was removed from command of a Commando unit after once again leaving an embarrassing trail of civilian dead behind him. The man is a borderline psychopath, and I'm not qualified to say which side of the line he's on.
The 'original countries' of the Israeli children would be the countries they or their recent forbears came from. Those that have family dating back before the Zionist influx have been as much harmed by the whole nationalist exercise as the descendants of other original residents.

Mike B : Palestine was not 'Greek and Roman' for centuries. It was ruled by the Seleucids and then the Romans until the rise of Islam (to which most of the population, Christian and Jewish, converted). The people were mostly semitic, the ancestors of the people who live there now (including many Israeli Jews). You might as well claim that India and Pakistan are British. And the 'Germanic states' of North Africa presumably refers to the Visigoths, who got twatted by Belisarius in the mid-sixth century, a little before Islam arrived. Besides which, what other people did to yet other people elsewhere and at other times has no bearing on the behaviour of Zionists now. An overwhelmingly European group colonised Palestine in the 20th century, driving out the resident population and demolishing their villages and homes. We all know how to describe that behaviour when Serbs do it.

Another thing that a lot of people may not know is that the Zionist project involves creating a 'Jewish majority on both banks of the Jordan' (see evidence to the Peel commission in the 1930's, or Ben-Gurion's letters and speeches). That explains, in part, why most Israelis have no desire for peace now, since that would imply the failure of the project. Rabin missed that point and paid the price. The truth is that Israelis like wars - well, they always win, don't they? This explains the Sharon policy - no talks without a ceasefire, but no ceasefire is acceptable.

One thing that AN@S may not know, as a relative newcomer: there is no point in wasting your time on reading screeds from Jedi Knight or Ben Schniper. There are other people on the site who are more open to rational debate and acceptance of information that doesn't fit their preconceptions, and they might have something substantive to say.

CapelDodger

29th July 2002, 08:02 AM

Fgrom Troll:
If they are taught to hate the Zionists and not Jews, why are they growing up to kill Jews before finding out if they are Zionists?

If they're living in a settlement they are at least going to be brought up as Zionists. And one has to ask what kind of people deliberately take their children to live in a war zone. Presumably they are people whose ordinary humanity is eclipsed by their religious and nationalist fanaticism.

Did you ever hear of the word extremist? You know like Le Penn in france, Falwell in the States etc. etc
Can we assume you won't take the expressions of Palestinian extremists as the voice of the entire people in future? And will criticise those who do?

Troll

29th July 2002, 08:40 AM

Originally posted by CapelDodger
Fgrom Troll:

If they're living in a settlement they are at least going to be brought up as Zionists. And one has to ask what kind of people deliberately take their children to live in a war zone. Presumably they are people whose ordinary humanity is eclipsed by their religious and nationalist fanaticism.

Oh so since the kids are there it's okay to take them out? Sounds like something the KKK used to say about blacks in their neighborhoods.

Troll

29th July 2002, 08:51 AM

Originally posted by CapelDodger
Fgrom Troll:

Can we assume you won't take the expressions of Palestinian extremists as the voice of the entire people in future? And will criticise those who do?

Oops. Missed this part somehow.

I was actually refering to an extremist rabbi and trying to make sure that AN@S did not think that one extremist spoke for all of Israel. So as far as your assumptions go, I never did take the word of a Palesinian extremist as a voice of the entire people. And I do criticize people that do take extremist views as the voice of the people, as I just showed you.

can we assume you'll read more and assume less in the future?:D

CapelDodger

29th July 2002, 09:04 AM

From Troll:
Oh so since the kids are there it's okay to take them out? Sounds like something the KKK used to say about blacks in their neighborhoods.
That's not what I said, as you know perfectly well. I just pointed out that these kids are going to be brought up by brainwashing, religio-nationalist fanatics - if they aren't killed in the meantime, presumably winning their parents points with their god-totem for the 'sacrifice' involved. That's something that ought to concern right-thinking people, not get their support. These children are as much victims of Zionism as the Palestinians they'll be taught to hate and despise.

Troll

29th July 2002, 09:06 AM

On the off chance that you were refering to this comment I made

"The second comment shows there's more of a lust for war than peace. Yes I know it's just one persons opinion being stated here, but I have a very strong feeling it's representative of a lot more people's opinions. "

I was refering to governments that would educate their children to have a hatred for another human in general. Where An@s stated that they are taught to hate Zionists and not Jews. Yet they seem to be suicide bombing rather randomly

Troll

29th July 2002, 09:09 AM

Originally posted by CapelDodger
From Troll:

That's not what I said, as you know perfectly well. I just pointed out that these kids are going to be brought up by brainwashing, religio-nationalist fanatics - if they aren't killed in the meantime, presumably winning their parents points with their god-totem for the 'sacrifice' involved. That's something that ought to concern right-thinking people, not get their support. These children are as much victims of Zionism as the Palestinians they'll be taught to hate and despise.

Perhaps they will be, but then the basic child does seem to have a little parental rebellion in them. But with these kids you can guess they may grow up thinking Zionist thoughts because of where they live. However, being taught to hate isn't part of the school curriculum, as is the case with many of their neighboring countries.

CapelDodger

29th July 2002, 10:37 AM

From Troll:. However, being taught to hate isn't part of the school curriculum, as is the case with many of their neighboring countries.
How do they do the SAT's for that particualr subject?

"At Key Stage 1 the child should be able to demonstrate basic competence in indignation and be familiar with at least four derogatory and offensive words or phrases ..."

I'm a little sceptical.

Bjorn

29th July 2002, 11:07 AM

Originally posted by Jedi Knight

Bjorn, I refuse to do your research for you! This is the last time I am going to say it too.

Go to a search engine and type "Dome of the Rock" into it.

Get your own links!

Jedi Knight Oh, but you misunderstand me, Jedi, I'm not in any way asking you to do research for me, I'm just suggesting that you do some research for yourself before you post.

That way, you might avoid the most embarassing statements.

You know, "one chromosome between humans and flies", "Arabs breeding 20 times faster than Israelis" and so on.

It is also a fact that it is hard to find links to things you make up.

The actual question, Dome of the Rock - there are hundreds of links to be found, I just wanted the ONE link you might have that tells us that someone wants to make it into a mosque?

MY links tell me it has been one for 1300 years? :confused:

aerocontrols

29th July 2002, 11:07 AM

Originally posted by CapelDodger
From Troll:
How do they do the SAT's for that particualr subject?

"At Key Stage 1 the child should be able to demonstrate basic competence in indignation and be familiar with at least four derogatory and offensive words or phrases ..."

I'm a little sceptical.

It looks like this (http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/Peace/pateach.html), actually.

The Palestinian Ministry of Education is providing clear direction to its high school history teachers to inculcate the view among the students that Zionism is a racist movement similar to Fascism and Nazism. The textbooks ignore the political negotiation channel that is meant to bring an end to the conflict in the region. On the contrary they emphasize the attachment of the Palestinian people to all of "Palestine" in its historical boundaries.

In Chapter 14 called "Zionism" in the instruction book for high school teachers, the Palestinian Ministry of Education defines for its teaching staff the required objectives in teaching this chapter, among which are:

Objective 5 - The student will understand the reasons why the peoples of the world hate the Jews.

Objective 7 - The student will discover the connections between imperialist interests and Zionist interests.

Objective 8 - The student will compare Zionism with imperialism.

Objective 9 - The student will understand the Zionist danger to Arab security and to Arab revival.

Objective 11 - The student will propose ways of dealing with Zionist activity that threaten the Arab world.

In the introductory chapter to the textbook, the following goals are defined for Palestinian history teachers: "The student will compare the foundations of Fascism and Nazism to those of Zionism. The student will acquire the following (learning) directives: Zionism is an aggressive, racist movement; the sense of racial superiority is the essence of Zionism, Fascism, and Nazism. The student will acquire the following values and perceptions: Understanding the dangers arising from Zionism and from racial discrimination...assessing the negative impact of Zionism on the Arab's revival and development. The student...will make the connection between Zionism and racial discrimination and will trace the connection between Zionism and terrorist movements in the modern world."

Emphasis and formatting mine.

Any readers of Arabic can feel free to go there and read it in the original Arabic, if they so desire. Inform us if there are lies in the translation.

Fair warning on that, though. One of my roomates is Indian, raised in Dubai, UAE. The other is Egyptian, raised in Egypt. If someone tells me the translation is wrong, I'm going to check your work.

MattJ

Jedi Knight

29th July 2002, 11:34 AM

Originally posted by Bjorn
Oh, but you misunderstand me, Jedi, I'm not in any way asking you to do research for me, I'm just suggesting that you do some research for yourself before you post.

That way, you might avoid the most embarassing statements.

You know, "one chromosome between humans and flies", "Arabs breeding 20 times faster than Israelis" and so on.

It is also a fact that it is hard to find links to things you make up.

The actual question, Dome of the Rock - there are hundreds of links to be found, I just wanted the ONE link you might have that tells us that someone wants to make it into a mosque?

MY links tell me it has been one for 1300 years? :confused:

Your stalking me Bjorn and that represents a dangerous pathology on your part. Every post that I make you ask the same information--but you never do it to anyone else. If you ever want me to speak to you again and not put you on permanent ignore--knock it off.

Jedi Knight

Troll

29th July 2002, 11:48 AM

Bjorn

29th July 2002, 11:51 AM

Originally posted by Jedi Knight

Your stalking me Bjorn and that represents a dangerous pathology on your part. Every post that I make you ask the same information--but you never do it to anyone else. If you ever want me to speak to you again and not put you on permanent ignore--knock it off.

Jedi Knight Yes, Jedi, I ask you for references, links, documentation, and I do it more often to you than to anyone else (although it is not true that I 'never' do it to anyone else).

There are reasons for it.

1.

Seriously, have you noticed that many posters automatically give references and links when they post? Or how they give them if challenged to do so?

2.

Sometimes, looking for links in advance, one finds that there is no evidence, or the fact one wanted to find out more about simply wasn't a fact at all.

3.

When you yourself post comments like "I never answer questions", "It is true because I say so", "I just happen to know that it is true even if you deny it" - don't you think it provokes people (like me) to ask for evidence?

4.

And it is so easy for you to stop me from asking you: Just post links, give us some evidence, don't make things up.

So, come on now, just the one link you have that shows that they're going to make The Dome of the Rock it into a mosque? You can do that? :)

Troll

29th July 2002, 01:13 PM

a_unique_person

29th July 2002, 08:51 PM

Originally posted by Troll

And examples of oppression and persecution are....? Persecutionthose that would take a gun to a party and kill Israelis? Persecution of those that have bomb making materials and plans as to what day and time to blow themselves up along with Israeli school kids?

Persecution like this. (http://www.harpers.org/online/gaza_diary/?pg=1)

Did you know we sorta do the same thing in the US with Varying states? You're Pennsylvanian or you're one of the degenerates according to your car's tags. :D

not based on race or ethnic type

Yes it is occupied terrotory. It was captured from Jordan, Egypt and Syria when they were preparing to attack and invade Israel. Maybe they shouldn't have done that, what do you think?

you are making the Palestinians pay for it. Germany and Japan were given back their land, and helped to restore their countries

And how many are dying of thirst?

Water is a serious problem, with many long term implications for peoples health and the stability of the area. Many intensive farming and living styles are unsustainable. The average settler uses about 100 times as much water as a palestinian.

See here for more detailed water info. (http://www.bankwatch.org/downloads/waterforpalestine.pdf)

I'm really not that big on my tax dollars going to anyone that didn't add to the pot. That includes France and other countries that still owe us

if you look at the current account deficit and trade deficit, i would say you are starting to owe a fair bit now. And if you didn't beat Nazi Germany in France, would you have preffered to fight her in your own back yard?

Israel shops smart. So what? Would you rather they buy from the chinese and Russians like most Arabs nations?

Dont also forget all the arms that israel exports to third world countries to make money. Israel gets very good deals on highly advanced weapons, and uses the money it saves on nuclear weapons.

Name one nation not in defiance of several? And 69 is a cool number

The UN helped set up Israel. Then they thought that was the end of the thanks.

Troll

30th July 2002, 02:08 AM

Originally posted by a_unique_person

Persecution like this. (http://www.harpers.org/online/gaza_diary/?pg=1)

not based on race or ethnic type [quote ]

Oh you mean persecution like "this (http://web.amnesty.org/ai.nsf/f5fe6e6a09bbe1ce80256af60068734a/64f59dc0b44c5fef80256aff0058b1b8/$FILE/ch5.pdf) ?

It's pdf format so I'll make it easy. Yusuf Samir is the journalist the guy in your persecution link says he spoke with. Yusuf Samir

Yusuf Samir
A journalist, Yusuf Samir, aged 63, an Israeli citizen who
was born in Egypt, was stopped by Palestinian police on
4 April 2001 while shopping with his wife in Bethlehem.
The police questioned him about his Israeli passport.
Annoyed that they had questioned his integrity as an
Arab journalist, Yusuf Samir returned the same day to
the police station with his books and poems to prove his
support for the Palestinian cause. Later that day he
telephoned his wife and asked her to bring medicine for
his heart condition and a gun which he kept at home for
protection. Two Palestinian General Intelligence
( mukhabarat) officers met her in Bethlehem and took the
gun and the medicine.
After that the family heard nothing. His wife
telephoned the next day and was told that her husband
had been released. After publicity about his
"disappearance", the Director of the mukhabarat
made a
statement on 14 April to Voice of Palestine
radio saying
that Yusuf Samir had been questioned on 4 April and
released the same night.

On 7 June, 64 days after his "disappearance", Yusuf
Samir escaped from secret detention and reached an
Israeli checkpoint. He told newspapers and radio: "I was
given a mattress in one room of an office in the civil
administration headquarters where I was repeatedly
beaten, humiliated and terrorized. I didn't see a person.
I didn't see sun. I didn't see light. I was beaten every
hour or half-hour.” He said that every day he was told to
write a confession that he was an Israeli agent and
beaten with a belt and by hand when he failed to do so.
Sometimes, he said, his guards would tell him that he
would rot in the building until he died.

Or do you mean persecution like you find on this page?

http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/Terrorism/victims.html

a_unique_person

30th July 2002, 02:12 AM

Don't ignore the point, the point was that based on your ethnic type, you have to use a distinctive number plate.

If you want to give an example of petty rascism on both sides of the fence, given that the two countries are basically at war, it wouldn't surprise me, but that is a different subject. Much like the US treatment of Japanese during WWII.

Troll

30th July 2002, 02:12 AM

Originally posted by a_unique_person

you are making the Palestinians pay for it. Germany and Japan were given back their land, and helped to restore their countries

Germany and Japan surrendered and promised to quit trying to kill people. Uh, when have the Palestinians made the same agreement?

Troll

30th July 2002, 02:16 AM

Originally posted by a_unique_person
Don't ignore the point, the point was that based on your ethnic type, you have to use a distinctive number plate.

If you want to give an example of petty rascism on both sides of the fence, given that the two countries are basically at war, it wouldn't surprise me, but that is a different subject. Much like the US treatment of Japanese during WWII.

The license plates are based on the Israeli state and the wanted Palestinian state. And it seems to work against the Israelis more than anything

"Oct 24 93 Two IDF soldiers, Staff Sgt. (res.) Ehud Rot, age 35, and Sgt. Ilan Levi, age 23, were killed by a HAMAS Iz a-Din al Kassam squad. The two entered a Subaru with Israeli license plates outside a Jewish settlement in the Gaza Strip, whose passengers were apparently terrorists disguised as Israelis. Following a brief struggle, the soldiers were shot at close range and killed. HAMAS publicly claimed responsibility for the attack. "

"Nov 9 93 Salman 'Id el-Hawashla, age 38, an Israeli Bedouin of the Abu Rekaik tribe who was driving a car with Israeli plates, was killed by three armed men driving a truck hijacked from the Gaza municipality, in a deliberate head-on collision. "

So what's the issue of license plates? Is it something you'd target civilians for death over?

a_unique_person

30th July 2002, 02:18 AM

Originally posted by Troll

Germany and Japan surrendered and promised to quit trying to kill people. Uh, when have the Palestinians made the same agreement?

I think you will find there are still extremists in both those countries who would be quite happy to go back to their old ways. While people are treated like this (http://www.harpers.org/online/gaza_diary/?pg=1) you will find it hard to get peace. Maybe if israel stopped invading their country it would be a good start. I cannot see the Japan saying to the US during an invasion of the US during WWII, look, just stop fighting, and we'll talk peace."

a_unique_person

30th July 2002, 02:20 AM

Maybe you should look at this (http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/) before you start avoiding the point. The point is, that people are distinguished by their ethnic type, something that Nazi Germany was criticised for.

Troll

30th July 2002, 02:21 AM

Originally posted by a_unique_person

I think you will find there are still extremists in both those countries who would be quite happy to go back to their old ways. While people are treated like this (http://www.harpers.org/online/gaza_diary/?pg=1) you will find it hard to get peace. Maybe if israel stopped invading their country it would be a good start. I cannot see the Japan saying to the US during an invasion of the US during WWII, look, just stop fighting, and we'll talk peace."

But you expect the Israelis to accept the Palestinian cry of "Stop retaliating when we kill you and we'll stop"? And big whoop for extremists. You'll find them wanting all sorts of things in all countries.

Troll

30th July 2002, 02:23 AM

Originally posted by a_unique_person
Maybe you should look at this (http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/) before you start avoiding the point. The point is, that people are distinguished by their ethnic type, something that Nazi Germany was criticised for.

I've read that several times. And so far the only avoidance I see is on your part. I'll ask you again, is the alleged" oppression" of different license plates cause for murder?

a_unique_person

30th July 2002, 02:24 AM

The invasion of the West Bank has been a steady, planned, bloody, remorseless process that has stolen land, community, water and peace from palestinians. Don't kid yourself it is anything but. The Zionists hope that by doing so in a low key way that avoids the front page of the newspaper, they will get away with a plan that is nowhere near finished.

a_unique_person

30th July 2002, 02:26 AM

Originally posted by Troll

I've read that several times. And so far the only avoidance I see is on your part. I'll ask you again, is the alleged" oppression" of different license plates cause for murder?

The point all along has been that the Israeli Government is distinguishing people by ethnic type. Yes or No? Stop using the list of errors in logic I just supplied you, and try to stick to the point.

Troll

30th July 2002, 02:28 AM

Originally posted by a_unique_person
The invasion of the West Bank has been a steady, planned, bloody, remorseless process that has stolen land, community, water and peace from palestinians. Don't kid yourself it is anything but. The Zionists hope that by doing so in a low key way that avoids the front page of the newspaper, they will get away with a plan that is nowhere near finished.

Why are you switching the topic suddenly? Let's stick with the persecution and license plates until that matter is concluded, please.

But I have to ask ya, stolen land from who? The West Bank was never Palestine, was it? So it couldn't have been stolen from Palestinians, could it?

Troll

30th July 2002, 02:30 AM

Originally posted by a_unique_person

The point all along has been that the Israeli Government is distinguishing people by ethnic type. Yes or No? Stop using the list of errors in logic I just supplied you, and try to stick to the point.

No. Why? Because there are people that are not Israeli that live in Israel and drive cars with Israeli plates. So no, it's not based on ethnicity.

Now please try to answer any of the questions I've asked you.

a_unique_person

30th July 2002, 04:53 AM

Originally posted by Troll

No. Why? Because there are people that are not Israeli that live in Israel and drive cars with Israeli plates. So no, it's not based on ethnicity.

Now please try to answer any of the questions I've asked you.

Now read this link (http://nigelparry.com/diary/ramallah/plates.html) and tell me what you think. I think it shows that control of non jews is pretty total. Palestinians have no freedom.

aerocontrols

30th July 2002, 05:44 AM

It seems to me that your link says that license plate colors are based on citizenship, not race. If one is an Israeli citizen of any race, they get one color, if they are not (If they are under the authority of the PA, for instance) they get another color.

How can you say that this is 'distinguishing by ethnic type' when Arabs with Israeli citizenship and Arabs in East Jerusalem have the Israeli-color plates?

MattJ

CapelDodger

30th July 2002, 06:15 AM

aerocontrols and Troll:

You do seem easily satisfied with the information you get from propaganda sites. areocontrols, the site you quote re the Palestinian curriculum is such a propaganda site. Presumably the 'Arabic original' you mention refer to means the fuzzy pictures that implicitly purport to be part of the Palestinian curriculum. What evidence do you have that they are anything of the sort? Have you asked your Egyptian friend to translate them yet? Consider this: if the English on the page is incorrect or untrue, why would Arabic put on the same page be true?
There's another propaganda site (http://www.edume.org/) that might give you comfort, and is apparently the main source for these claims about Palestinian education. The quotes on your link are not obvious on this site, whereas one would have thought they would be, since it's a Zionist site. You could also try these links:
Palestinian Curriculum (http://www.edume.org/react/pa.htm) - a Palestinian site, not a Zionist one, so you can actually exercise your scepticism
An attempt at refutation (http://www.geocities.com/nathanbrown1/Adam_Institute_Palestinian_textbooks.htm) - again, a non-Zionist site
Various links (http://www.nad-plo.org/textbooks/textbooks.html)

Palestinian textbooks may indeed refer to Israel as a racist state, which is hardly surprising given that Israel is a racist state. And comparison with Nazis when Sharon is the Prime Minister and people like Ze'evi was in the cabinet before the world was relieved of his presence is hardly surprising. And shock at Palestinians who claim the whole of Palestine? Is this because the imaginary Israeli god-totem didn't give it to them, but in fact gave the whole of Palestine to the Jews?

LillyThePink

30th July 2002, 07:08 AM

Originally posted by Bjorn
Yes, Jedi, I ask you for references, links, documentation, and I do it more often to you than to anyone else (although it is not true that I 'never' do it to anyone else).

There are reasons for it. (snip)

The main reason, imo, is that YOU claimed it, so YOU prove it. It applies to everyone on this board. If you CAN'T prove it, then don't claim it. There are several claims on this topic alone (he was making bombs in his apartment, they are building a mosque on top of it etc) that you have been unable to verify or cite where you got your information from. Just ONE link to a report of weapons-making equipment found in the rubble, just ONE link to site plans for the mosque would do it.

This is not a question of doing "other people's research" for them. It's a question of backing up your own argument/claims. And if you can't or won't then don't expect your argument to be taken seriously.

Edited to add:

On a personal note, I found your remarks about Palestinian women "popping out 10 kids" a shocking stereotype... do you have the birth figures to back this up? If not, it's just another one of your unsubstantiated claims.

Ben Shniper

30th July 2002, 07:42 AM

Originally posted by LillyThePink

On a personal note, I found your remarks about Palestinian women "popping out 10 kids" a shocking stereotype... do you have the birth figures to back this up? If not, it's just another one of your unsubstantiated claims.

http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/0194/9401035.htm

This one is true! I cite the Economist's world fact book which listed the world's highest birthrate for the territories labeled "West Bank and Gaza". Gaza is both the most crowded place on Earth AND the fastest growing population on Earth (7.9!)! It's a hackneyed attempt to win through increasingly large numbers of increacingly hostile and stupid people (who are forced through their size to be dependent on the UN for aid). They had a record of 5.3 for their fertility rate, even higher than Morrocco. Israel had a decent replacement rate around 2.5, and the Jews living in the West Bank/Judea-Sumaria had a rate around 4.3 or so. But the figures point to a non-natural replacement rate which looked for all the world like an attack on Israel was imminent. The paltry 2000 or so Palestinians who have violently died is nothing, not even beginning to turn the tide of the increasing Palestinian population (nor is the 500 or so Jews dead, Jewish imigration continues apace).

The larger conclusion is that the 100 million Arabs around Israel are trying to even further outnumber the Jews as a means of destroying them, a tactic that may or may not succeed but is certain to overcrowd the Arab world (as even in a total war the number of Arab casualties would probably be low, and in a nuclear war the amount of land left for Arabs and Jews would be greatly reduced, leaving overcrowding unstopped.) In the near future, Arabs will start to starve or be forced to cut back on population increaces, or be able to expand into new territories as they now hope. (i.e. Sudan, Israel, Chechnya)

-Ben

ggcarl

30th July 2002, 07:53 AM

So it looks like, one way or another, religion will be the death of us all. Either we'll implode because of it, as shown by the recent "pledge" debate or the priests-sex scandal, or we'll explode, via the jews vs. muslims thing or the muslims vs. just about everybody or the xians vs. themselves.

Unless all the religiosos suddenly dissappear or are wiped out, those pesky invisible people will ruin any chances of having a nice planet. :(

LillyThePink

30th July 2002, 07:53 AM

7.9 (average) is not 10 kids each, neither do we have a support statistic for Israeli women having 1 each (the statistic in the report here is 2.9). I think we also need to take into consideration the availability of birth control and educational levels, as well as religious belief:

Although most Islamic scholars agree that there is no religious prohibition against family planning, Muslim communities throughout the world tend to have large families. Albania, with a Muslim majority, has the highest fertility level in Europe, Omran and Roudi point out. In Malaysia, where Muslim Malays are one of three major religious communities, they tend to have higher fertility rates than their compatriots of Indian or Chinese descent.

Tho I thank you kindly for having gone to the trouble of backing up someone else's claims for them ;) :D The report is really good for getting into the social and ecomonic reasons towards the bottom..... as opposed to the political ones stated at the top of the article and by Jedi Knight. :p

OK, JK, Ben has sorted out one of the claims you're made (sort of), whilst your figures were inaccurate, your theory was sound. I took your advice and put "dome of the rock" into google, but short of the information about it being an earthquake site which has not affected the shrine due to the bedrock, I fail to find any information about anyone wishing to build a mosque on top of it and knackering the foundations in the process...a little help, for your source, please?

Ben Shniper

30th July 2002, 07:53 AM

Originally posted by CapelDodger
Palestinian textbooks may indeed refer to Israel as a racist state, which is hardly surprising given that Israel is a racist state. And comparison with Nazis when Sharon is the Prime Minister and people like Ze'evi was in the cabinet before the world was relieved of his presence is hardly surprising.

Name a state that doesn't have an oppressed minority, or a minority doing worse economically? You are a brainwashed moron. Nothing Israel does in this way is special. What is special is the demand by the PA that it be judenrein and the trash in their textbooks and schools (many have posters of suicide bombers, and many have teachers teaching hate of a an "occupation" outside the curricula.) Does Israel demand that all Arabs who came in recently leave the nation? No. Yet you single them out for condemnation, instead of the PA who does demand this. Israel's curriculum is a thing of leftist beauty, yet you praise the PA's instead.

Why don't you quote these 30 "facts" to all your friends.

-Ben

aerocontrols

30th July 2002, 08:28 AM

Originally posted by CapelDodger
aerocontrols and Troll:

You do seem easily satisfied with the information you get from propaganda sites. areocontrols, the site you quote re the Palestinian curriculum is such a propaganda site. Presumably the 'Arabic original' you mention refer to means the fuzzy pictures that implicitly purport to be part of the Palestinian curriculum. What evidence do you have that they are anything of the sort? Have you asked your Egyptian friend to translate them yet? Consider this: if the English on the page is incorrect or untrue, why would Arabic put on the same page be true?

Propaganda site? You don't say. You wanted to know how being taught to hate might look, didn't you?

AN@S said

School books teach the young palestinians and arabs to hate Zionists NOT jews...

Coming from a Syrian, I thought that that settled the issue, of hatred of Zionists being taught, anyway. Perhaps he is only talking about his Syrian textbooks, though. Perhaps he is a zionist agent sent here to spread propaganda. (No offense, AN@S) If you still wish to debate whether Palestinian textbooks teach children to hate, you can take it up with AN@S.

The answer is 'no', I haven't asked my Egyptian roomate to translate, and I would be more likely to ask my Indian roomate anyway, as my Egyptian roomate's sentiments are with the Palestinians. He knows where I stand, we've talked about it several times, but I'm not crazy about bringing it up over and over.

But like I said, I thought that teaching of hatred wasn't in question, so I didn't attempt 'balance', rather I simply attempted to answer your question about what such teaching standards look like. Here (http://randio.vwh.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=91971&highlight=education#post91971) is what it looks like when I respond to a similar post and the question of hatred being taught is in doubt, rather than when logistics of such hatred are being discussed.

Originally posted by CapelDodger
There's another propaganda site (http://www.edume.org/) that might give you comfort, and is apparently the main source for these claims about Palestinian education. The quotes on your link are not obvious on this site, whereas one would have thought they would be, since it's a Zionist site. You could also try these links:
Palestinian Curriculum (http://www.edume.org/react/pa.htm) - a Palestinian site, not a Zionist one, so you can actually exercise your scepticism
An attempt at refutation (http://www.geocities.com/nathanbrown1/Adam_Institute_Palestinian_textbooks.htm) - again, a non-Zionist site
Various links (http://www.nad-plo.org/textbooks/textbooks.html)

The quotes are not obvious? From the hompage, click on 'reports', then the quotes are found in Report No. TG-00-03, which shows up at the top right of the reports index page. I can't see how they could be any more obvious.

It's odd that when edume.org publishes both sides of the issue, you change your description of it from a zionist website to a palestinian website. The second link you give me is the same 'Zionist' website printing the PA's response to their complaints. If you look further, you will see that the publish an entire back-and-forth debate, something you are not likely to see on a Palestinian propaganda website. Did you even look at your links? In case you're curious, I am well aware of edume.org, and have visited them several times, reading both the 'zionist' propaganda and what palestinian propaganda they have there, though I have not read the entire contents of the site.

Just so we are clear: By 'both sides' I don't mean that edume.org is in any way balanced. Only that I find it odd that it suddently became a palestinian website in your eyes when it published a response from palestinians.

Originally posted by CapelDodger
Palestinian textbooks may indeed refer to Israel as a racist state, which is hardly surprising given that Israel is a racist state. And comparison with Nazis when Sharon is the Prime Minister and people like Ze'evi was in the cabinet before the world was relieved of his presence is hardly surprising. And shock at Palestinians who claim the whole of Palestine? Is this because the imaginary Israeli god-totem didn't give it to them, but in fact gave the whole of Palestine to the Jews?

Palestinian textbooks can refer to the Israelis as racists or not, for all I care. You seemed to express doubt that they did, in contradiction to both AN@S and my 'zionist' website. I believe it is a violation of the Oslo Accords for the PA texts to call the Israelis racists, but no doubt we both understand that both sides are in violation of those accords on many issues. As for Sharon being the Prime Minister, perhaps you might pay a little more attention to the sequence of events. The report I referred you to was from 2000, if I read their notation correctly. Which would make the teacher's manual they are referring to even older.

MattJ

Bjorn

30th July 2002, 11:11 AM

Originally posted by LillyThePink
7.9 (average) is not 10 kids each, neither do we have a support statistic for Israeli women having 1 each (the statistic in the report here is 2.9). As posted before, from CIA World Factbook:

Lebanon 1.38%
Israel 1.58%
Egypt 1.69%
Syria 2.54%
Jordan 3.00%

Jedi Knight

30th July 2002, 11:43 AM

Originally posted by LillyThePink

OK, JK, Ben has sorted out one of the claims you're made (sort of), whilst your figures were inaccurate, your theory was sound. I took your advice and put "dome of the rock" into google, but short of the information about it being an earthquake site which has not affected the shrine due to the bedrock, I fail to find any information about anyone wishing to build a mosque on top of it and knackering the foundations in the process...a little help, for your source, please?

Since you asked nicely I will provide you some.

Destruction of Jewish Artifacts (http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=15110)

Dome of the Rock war dangers (http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=15029)

More Information (http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=15066)

Keep in mind this is one opinion from one person but I selected it because it describes the current tension over the structure pretty well. The main US media doesn't report it on it because they are too lazy-minded to understand the implications of what is at stake.

There are hosts of other opinions on the subject and that information can be easily located by acccessing jewish media sites and other locations in or around the middle east to get a variety of viewpoints.

JK

Bjorn

30th July 2002, 12:20 PM

Originally posted by Jedi Knight