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Skeptic Ginger
8th June 2011, 09:58 AM
MMqXOc5yyN8
OK I'm ready to go on a rampage about this ad, it so angered me.

That's all I got right now but I'll post updates on my progress voicing my disgust to J&J.

Skeptic Ginger
8th June 2011, 10:14 AM
I sent this email to J&J: "I am particularly disturbed by your TV ad implying nurses believe superstition "stacks the deck". (4 leaf clover ED ad). As a member of the science based medicine community and as a nurse, I believe promoting this message is insulting. You are sending the message that DESPITE nursing being science based we are still clinging to superstitious nonsense. BTW, prayer has been shown to have no effect on healing either so this isn't about offending my beliefs. This is about demeaning nurses by implying we believe in superstition and magic."

Please send them your own comments if you are so inclined.
https://secure-www.jnj.com/wps/wcm/jsp/contactUs.jsp


And perhaps we can get some interest in this issue from our colleagues by spreading the word here. Thanks.

madurobob
8th June 2011, 10:16 AM
Is it that the nurse says she believes in "stacking the deck" and what she is really conveying is that she believes silly superstitions in addition to science?

I don't think that's the only way to interpret it. My first reaction was that it was meant to show a human aspect - compassion - in addition to medical knowledge. Or, put another way, since nurses spend more time with patients than anyone else they need to have excellent interpersonal skills in additional to years of medical training... and that's why we need to support nurses.

ETA: But, I have to admit I'd probably be less on the fence here if it had been a crucifix rather than a shamrock.

DallasDad
8th June 2011, 10:29 AM
If you hadn't pointed out it could be interpreted as the nurse supporting superstitition, I wouldn't have thought of it. I interpreted the action as showing compassion, trying to make the patient feel better, etc., even if the nurse found the ideas silly.

Now I'm conflicted. Someone could easily interpret it the first way.

Rasmus
8th June 2011, 10:34 AM
If you hadn't pointed out it could be interpreted as the nurse supporting superstitition, I wouldn't have thought of it. I interpreted the action as showing compassion, trying to make the patient feel better, etc., even if the nurse found the ideas silly.

Now I'm conflicted. Someone could easily interpret it the first way.

I would - why should the ad have a lucky charm rather than any other object the patient could have dropped? And why would compassion need to be contrasted with science?

madurobob
8th June 2011, 10:35 AM
Now I'm conflicted. Someone could easily interpret it the first way.
Yup - same boat.

It is easy to see how someone might be offended. So easy, Johnson & Johnson should have picked up on it as well.

madurobob
8th June 2011, 10:40 AM
And why would compassion need to be contrasted with science?

Well, that is more cultural. We always talk about "cold hard science" and "human warmth". You have to really be looking to be offended to take issue with that alone in this ad. Its a selling point - the ad is selling the idea of nursing and compassion is something everyone can recognize as a good quality in a nurse.

Monketey Ghost
8th June 2011, 10:43 AM
Rn's believe in all sorts of paranormal crapola. Full-moon effect, number 13, you name it and an idiot nurse believes it.

Sorry but it's true. I've done informal polls quietly, and listened. Yesterday a bunch of Rn's were sitting around at the nurse's station babbling about their experiences with haunted houses and ghosts.

Emet
8th June 2011, 10:50 AM
Here's J&J's Discover Nursing site:

http://www.discovernursing.com/

JohnnyG
8th June 2011, 10:52 AM
I didn't take it to mean that the nurse believes in superstition, but when she noticed the four leaf clover she realized that the patient may be a believer. She puts it in his hand for his reassurance, not because she is superstitious. The ad is basically saying that compassion is an important part of nursing in addition to science.

I think this ad is a trivial thing to go on a rampage about. If Johnson & Johnson were marketing a four leaf clover for the enhanced treatment of ER patients, yes...I'll stand with you. But this? Meh.

Psi Baba
8th June 2011, 10:53 AM
I first saw that commercial a week or two ago, and also immediately took it as supporting superstition. I was quite surprised to see that, actually. I see the point about showing the compassion aspect, which certainly is an important part of all that nurses do, but I think that could have easily been depicted without the use of a lucky charm. In the ad, the patient doesn't appear to be conscious and so is not likely aware that the nurse placed his keyfob in his hand. Showing her holding his hand should have been sufficient. If they had shown the man's face mouthing the words, "thank you," or something like that, you could argue that the nurse figured the object had meaning to him even if not to her, and that's where the compassion figures in. But the way it plays out, it doesn't come off that way.

Imagine if a doctor handed you a scrip and a four-leaf clover, or he hands you one while you're on the operating table just before being put under and says,
"Here, hold onto this . . . you know, just to stack the deck." :jaw-dropp

Emet
8th June 2011, 10:58 AM
I think this ad is a trivial thing to go on a rampage about. If Johnson & Johnson were marketing a four leaf clover for the enhanced treatment of ER patients, yes...I'll stand with you. But this? Meh.

You'd be surprised what folks go on rampages about.

I'm a vet. When this movie (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beethoven_(film)) was released, letters to the editor started pouring in to JAVMA (http://avmajournals.avma.org/loi/javma) about the vet being depicted in a bad light. I think he was the bad guy in the film.

nimzov
8th June 2011, 11:01 AM
Quite a few nurses organisations support therapeutic touch.

Monketey Ghost
8th June 2011, 11:02 AM
In fact, I don't mean to be a hater, but nurses just love the kind of stuff we ridicule here.

JohnnyG
8th June 2011, 11:12 AM
Imagine if a doctor handed you a scrip and a four-leaf clover, or he hands you one while you're on the operating table just before being put under and says,
"Here, hold onto this . . . you know, just to stack the deck." :jaw-dropp
But she isn't handing him a lucky charm, she is giving him back HIS lucky charm that fell out of his pocket.
I don't think a company that makes science-based medical products would make an ad endorsing lucky charms. It certainly wasn't the best choice to demonstrate compassion, but I doubt they intended to endorse anything supernatural. The fact that some take it that way is more a reflection of their own hypersensitivity than evidence J&J thinks nurses should support woo.

Skeptic Ginger
8th June 2011, 11:56 AM
I would - why should the ad have a lucky charm rather than any other object the patient could have dropped? And why would compassion need to be contrasted with science?
Exactly. How about a picture of his kids or something. If I wasn't a sensitized skeptic, yes the "we care" message might have dominated, but the "stack the deck" is the clincher.

Skeptic Ginger
8th June 2011, 11:57 AM
In fact, I don't mean to be a hater, but nurses just love the kind of stuff we ridicule here.You forgot your smiley: :duck:


You have no basis for that insulting stereotype if you were serious. Nurses are no more nor less irrational than any other profession with an equivalent level of science in it.

Skeptic Ginger
8th June 2011, 12:00 PM
Well, that is more cultural. We always talk about "cold hard science" and "human warmth". You have to really be looking to be offended to take issue with that alone in this ad. Its a selling point - the ad is selling the idea of nursing and compassion is something everyone can recognize as a good quality in a nurse.You don't have to really be looking. You merely need to be sensitized to rational and irrational thinking.

Rasmus
8th June 2011, 12:02 PM
Exactly. How about a picture of his kids or something. If I wasn't a sensitized skeptic, yes the "we care" message might have dominated, but the "stack the deck" is the clincher.

Yes, the ad makes the most sense if i assume that they are at least openly approving of the woo.

I often notice a tendency to always assume that whatever was just said or displayed didn't come from a blithering idiot - but sometimes, that is the best explanation

Monketey Ghost
8th June 2011, 12:03 PM
You forgot your smiley: :duck:


You have no basis for that insulting stereotype if you were serious. Nurses are no more nor less irrational than any other profession with an equivalent level of science in it.

I am serious. But it's only my experience. In the hospital where I work there are no room 13's. Dead serious, the room numbers go from 12 to 14.

In fact, and this is only my experience, nurses are among the most superstitious people I've ever met. And for all the education it requires, many of them are box-of-rocks stupid in areas other than their expertise.

Skeptic Ginger
8th June 2011, 12:04 PM
I think perhaps what is being missed by some here is the problem that actually led to me being involved in the skeptical community in the first place. That is the problem of fighting against 'bad' medicine. I've spent 20 years fighting anti-vaxers and snake oil medicine. It's a serious problem in health care. This is one of the worst industries for being plagued with magical beliefs. Perhaps that's why this ad particularly irked me. It promotes 'bad' medicine.

TragicMonkey
8th June 2011, 12:06 PM
Imagine if a doctor handed you a scrip and a four-leaf clover, or he hands you one while you're on the operating table just before being put under

I'm pretty sure patients aren't allowed to carry much of anything into an operating room with them. There are rules about sterilization and similar. You don't want a sudden convulsion to drop your lucky charm straight into your opened-up chest, after all. That would be....less than lucky.

Skeptic Ginger
8th June 2011, 12:16 PM
I am serious. But it's only my experience. In the hospital where I work there are no room 13's. Dead serious, the room numbers go from 12 to 14.

In fact, and this is only my experience, nurses are among the most superstitious people I've ever met. And for all the education it requires, many of them are box-of-rocks stupid in areas other than their expertise.Your anecdotal experience needs a dose of reality. Let me suggest an alternative I've had to deal with in my career as well. Not all nurses are professional nurses. A good many of them are blue collar workers for lack of a better description. I've heard the term "we are our own worst enemy" more than once describing the image nurses have.

I started with a 2 year degree in a 35 bed hospital in a very small town in Colorado. From there I've had jobs in multiple settings all over the country and obtained a masters degree. In that experience I've seen nurses at every level from scientists with PhDs to uncurious patient babysitters.

So whatever your experience is, it simply does not apply to such a broad profession. OTOH, in all walks of life, especially in the US, skeptics and other critical thinkers are in the minority or haven't you noticed? So to find them in the minority among the nurses you work with does not surprise me. I just don't think nurses warrant being singled out as being more superstitious than any other group.

And, I'm pretty sure you'd have a different opinion if you were around mostly ICU nurses or any other specialty or advanced practice nurses where higher education and critical thinking is more a part of the job.

Skeptic Ginger
8th June 2011, 12:23 PM
Rn's believe in all sorts of paranormal crapola. Full-moon effect, number 13, you name it and an idiot nurse believes it.

Sorry but it's true. I've done informal polls quietly, and listened. Yesterday a bunch of Rn's were sitting around at the nurse's station babbling about their experiences with haunted houses and ghosts.[nostalgia sidetrack] Interesting little look into my brain many years before I was a more formal skeptic, in that very first job my coworkers were always commenting on the full Moon if we had a particularly busy night. In a 35 bed hospital you do everything from OB to hospice care. So I mapped out the births for a year compared to the lunar cycles and shared it with my co-workers. There was no correlation, it wasn't even close. I never thought about the fact I must have been born a natural skeptic.[/sidetrack]

Pup
8th June 2011, 12:24 PM
Exactly. How about a picture of his kids or something. If I wasn't a sensitized skeptic, yes the "we care" message might have dominated, but the "stack the deck" is the clincher.

Yep. The "stacking the deck" message was what blew it for me. Any other kind of bland Hallmark-type message would have worked and implied she was only doing something to comfort him: "also believe in... (pick one) love, compassion, hope, caring, understanding, etc."

But "stacking the deck" implies that the lucky charm won't just comfort him, it will actually tip the outcome in his favor. Yes, some nurses do believe in that kind of thing, but to me, it's not showing the best side of the profession, and it's certainly not the best thing to endorse in an ad that's supposed to be speaking for all of them in a non-controversial, positive way.

Skeptic Ginger
8th June 2011, 12:24 PM
I didn't take it to mean that the nurse believes in superstition, but when she noticed the four leaf clover she realized that the patient may be a believer. She puts it in his hand for his reassurance, not because she is superstitious. The ad is basically saying that compassion is an important part of nursing in addition to science.

I think this ad is a trivial thing to go on a rampage about. If Johnson & Johnson were marketing a four leaf clover for the enhanced treatment of ER patients, yes...I'll stand with you. But this? Meh.Except for the "stacking the deck" comment. :(

Skeptic Ginger
8th June 2011, 12:30 PM
Quite a few nurses organisations support therapeutic touch.Yeah, and lots of medical schools support acupuncture! :rolleyes:

Look at the facts. In the 70s there was a study that claimed to have found an measurable effect on hemoglobin after therapeutic touch. So you could forgive nurses for adopting the belief that touch was effective. But I think most of us that bother to think about such things are aware of the teenager who got a published study showing there was no effect.



But this illustrates one reason it is important to object to this ad. Like I said, snake oil medicine is an especially pervasive problem in medicine and we should object to it wherever it might be being promoted.

Skeptic Ginger
8th June 2011, 12:36 PM
But she isn't handing him a lucky charm, she is giving him back HIS lucky charm that fell out of his pocket.
I don't think a company that makes science-based medical products would make an ad endorsing lucky charms. It certainly wasn't the best choice to demonstrate compassion, but I doubt they intended to endorse anything supernatural. The fact that some take it that way is more a reflection of their own hypersensitivity than evidence J&J thinks nurses should support woo.I would have much less problem with the ad if it didn't include the "stack the deck" comment. If this were about supporting a patient's beliefs, then the compassion message would dominate and it would make sense. But by saying the nurse believes in "stacking the decK" it became about believing the superstition, not being compassionate.

Truthfully, if I saw that dorky keychain in a patient's pocket, I doubt I would have thought of it as something special to the patient. It wasn't even a real clover. It was a dorky keychain. But that may just have been an attempt by the producers to use something clear to the cameras and unlikely to offend any specific group. A cross would offend some and be seen as promoting Christianity. A rabbit's foot would offend PETA and they are a noisy bunch.

JohnnyG
8th June 2011, 12:42 PM
Except for the "stacking the deck" comment. :(

I took the "stacking the deck" comment to apply to the compassionate side of nursing, not specifically the lucky charm. Maybe I'm in the minority, but I think taking this as an endorsement of woo is a stretch and there are much better places to focus your rage.

madurobob
8th June 2011, 12:43 PM
You don't have to really be looking. You merely need to be sensitized to rational and irrational thinking.

Well, probably more like sensitized to the specific issue of woo and nurses. You'd have to very sensitive to issues of woo and nursing to be upset with an advertisement for drawing a distinction between compassion and science in nursing. Until this thread I hadn't considered that nurses might be considered more woo-prone that average.

I took "stacking the deck" to mean "using compassion in addition to cold, hard science based medicine". But given what I've heard about nurses here I may need to revise my opinion. If there is a problem with woo beliefs in nursing, this advert did nothing to help.

fls
8th June 2011, 01:15 PM
For what it's worth, I had the same reaction when I first saw the commercial a few weeks ago. The impression given is that you demonstrate compassion by buying into vague magical beliefs. To point out that practices which aren't evidence-based are not likely to be useful really means that you are uncaring.

Linda

Loss Leader
8th June 2011, 01:31 PM
I saw the ad and found it strange. J&J has had a lot of success with "issue" ads that don't directly sell their products. But this one did not work for the reasons stated.

CaveDave
8th June 2011, 01:32 PM
Is it that the nurse says she believes in "stacking the deck" and what she is really conveying is that she believes silly superstitions in addition to science?

I don't think that's the only way to interpret it. My first reaction was that it was meant to show a human aspect - compassion - in addition to medical knowledge. Or, put another way, since nurses spend more time with patients than anyone else they need to have excellent interpersonal skills in additional to years of medical training... and that's why we need to support nurses.

ETA: But, I have to admit I'd probably be less on the fence here if it had been a crucifix rather than a shamrock.

If you hadn't pointed out it could be interpreted as the nurse supporting superstitition, I wouldn't have thought of it. I interpreted the action as showing compassion, trying to make the patient feel better, etc., even if the nurse found the ideas silly.

Now I'm conflicted. Someone could easily interpret it the first way.

Well, that is more cultural. We always talk about "cold hard science" and "human warmth". You have to really be looking to be offended to take issue with that alone in this ad. Its a selling point - the ad is selling the idea of nursing and compassion is something everyone can recognize as a good quality in a nurse.

I didn't take it to mean that the nurse believes in superstition, but when she noticed the four leaf clover she realized that the patient may be a believer. She puts it in his hand for his reassurance, not because she is superstitious. The ad is basically saying that compassion is an important part of nursing in addition to science.

I think this ad is a trivial thing to go on a rampage about. If Johnson & Johnson were marketing a four leaf clover for the enhanced treatment of ER patients, yes...I'll stand with you. But this? Meh.

I fully agree.

Rn's believe in all sorts of paranormal crapola. Full-moon effect, number 13, you name it and an idiot nurse believes it.

Sorry but it's true. I've done informal polls quietly, and listened. Yesterday a bunch of Rn's were sitting around at the nurse's station babbling about their experiences with haunted houses and ghosts.

Quite a few nurses organisations support therapeutic touch.

This is also quite true. I have noticed that medical people, especially Physicians, tend to be more prone to Religion and other Superstitious Beliefs more often than most other "People of Science"

Cheers,

Dave

lionking
8th June 2011, 01:46 PM
I took the "stacking the deck" comment to apply to the compassionate side of nursing, not specifically the lucky charm. Maybe I'm in the minority, but I think taking this as an endorsement of woo is a stretch and there are much better places to focus your rage.

Same here. What harm was the nurse doing?

CaveDave
8th June 2011, 01:51 PM
Yep. The "stacking the deck" message was what blew it for me. Any other kind of bland Hallmark-type message would have worked and implied she was only doing something to comfort him: "also believe in... (pick one) love, compassion, hope, caring, understanding, etc."

But "stacking the deck" implies that the lucky charm won't just comfort him, it will actually tip the outcome in his favor. Yes, some nurses do believe in that kind of thing, but to me, it's not showing the best side of the profession, and it's certainly not the best thing to endorse in an ad that's supposed to be speaking for all of them in a non-controversial, positive way.

Perhaps, some are overlooking the POSSIBILITY that patient outcome MAY also be influenced (to even a SMALL degree) by patient mental state, attitude, and confidence in the course of treatment?

Except for the "stacking the deck" comment. :(

I would have much less problem with the ad if it didn't include the "stack the deck" comment. If this were about supporting a patient's beliefs, then the compassion message would dominate and it would make sense. But by saying the nurse believes in "stacking the decK" it became about believing the superstition, not being compassionate.

Truthfully, if I saw that dorky keychain in a patient's pocket, I doubt I would have thought of it as something special to the patient. It wasn't even a real clover. It was a dorky keychain. But that may just have been an attempt by the producers to use something clear to the cameras and unlikely to offend any specific group. A cross would offend some and be seen as promoting Christianity. A rabbit's foot would offend PETA and they are a noisy bunch.

I took the "stacking the deck" comment to apply to the compassionate side of nursing, not specifically the lucky charm. Maybe I'm in the minority, but I think taking this as an endorsement of woo is a stretch and there are much better places to focus your rage.

Well, probably more like sensitized to the specific issue of woo and nurses. You'd have to very sensitive to issues of woo and nursing to be upset with an advertisement for drawing a distinction between compassion and science in nursing. Until this thread I hadn't considered that nurses might be considered more woo-prone that average.

I took "stacking the deck" to mean "using compassion in addition to cold, hard science based medicine". But given what I've heard about nurses here I may need to revise my opinion. If there is a problem with woo beliefs in nursing, this advert did nothing to help.

FWIW

Cheers,

Dave

fls
8th June 2011, 01:58 PM
This is also quite true. I have noticed that medical people, especially Physicians, tend to be more prone to Religion and other Superstitious Beliefs more often than most other "People of Science"

Cheers,

Dave

That is my impression as well. I found a survey which seems to back this up.

http://chronicle.uchicago.edu/050714/doctorsfaith.shtml
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1490160/

However, that is from the United States and religiosity is higher there to begin with. I'm looking for something from Canada.

Linda

Pup
8th June 2011, 02:12 PM
Same here. What harm was the nurse doing?

We don't really know why she was doing what she was doing. If the ad was meant to show that she thought she was "stacking the deck" in the patient's favor by trying to bring him luck, I see the harm as probably similar to what Skeptic Ginger sees: it implied she might not be as focussed on evidence-based treatments as she claimed, if she thought the charm would do any good as a charm.

@CaveDave

If the message was meant to imply she was giving him the lucky charm because he believed in it and she wanted to help his morale, then I think that needed to be made clearer, with something non-supernatural like a photo of a loved one from his wallet for example, or (probably more offensive for different reasons) handing a cross or rosary to one person and a symbol of some other religion to another.

Actually, I thought that he was semi-conscious and therefore not aware of what she was handing him, which probably made me more apt to interpret it as something for luck, not for his morale. Without re-watching it, I don't recall him giving any thank-you reaction, but I may have missed it.

Skeptic Ginger
8th June 2011, 02:17 PM
I took the "stacking the deck" comment to apply to the compassionate side of nursing, not specifically the lucky charm. Maybe I'm in the minority, but I think taking this as an endorsement of woo is a stretch and there are much better places to focus your rage.
No way. The comment follows directly after 'relying on science' and focusing in on the charm.

Dr. Keith
8th June 2011, 02:26 PM
I have noticed that medical people, especially Physicians, tend to be more prone to Religion and other Superstitious Beliefs more often than most other "People of Science"

I have an anecdote to add to this observation and some thoughts on where it comes from, at least in this case:

The most religious person in my family is a pediatrician. I used to bristle a bit at her insistence that Jesus is the source of her strength mainly because she was so logical on so many other topics. I mean, she taught me the phrase "zebra chaser" for those who ignore Occam's razor and nothing gets her riled up more than anti-vaxers. Over time I have found that her job is very trying for her and she doesn't get a lot of support from her immediate family. It is tough for her to have kids die in her care and I don't think she feels like her family should have to deal with it. For her, Jesus is the answer to this problem. I don't think it is the best answer, but I understand her reasons and I would never try to take that away from her.

She takes a very scientific approach to her treatment of patients and feels that God has helped her to acquire those skills for these people and it is her duty to live up to that potential. To do less would be to ignore the obvious gifts she was given. But at the end of the day, when she gets to go home to her healthy kids after telling another mother that her child will die in the hospital, she needs to unload that burden to whatever fantasy is willing to take it.

Dissecting the synoptic gospels or exposing the inconsistencies of Genesis seem a bit petty in that context.

JohnnyG
8th June 2011, 02:59 PM
No way. The comment follows directly after 'relying on science' and focusing in on the charm.
Do you really think J&J is trying to advocate lucky charms as an impoartant aspect of nursing?

Skeptic Ginger
8th June 2011, 03:00 PM
Same here. What harm was the nurse doing?It wasn't what the nurse did that was the problem per se. It was the commentary:

"I believe in the power of science and medicine, but I'm also human and I believe in stacking the deck" [camera focuses on the charm]

If this was about compassion stacking the deck, why not something from the guy's pocket that was personal, a locket with a picture of a loved one or something? I recognize that my reaction to the ad apparently is not universal. I find that interesting. But the 4-leaf clover is imaged exactly when the "stacking the deck" comment is spoken. In addition, it follows the belief in science and medicine comment. "I'm also human" suggests the compassion message, but that is negated with the focus on the charm and the specific comment about stacking the deck.

Monketey Ghost
8th June 2011, 03:02 PM
Pink hearts and yellow moons, orange stars, green clovers, blue diamonds, purple horseshoes, and...

Skeptic Ginger
8th June 2011, 03:03 PM
Do you really think J&J is trying to advocate lucky charms as an impoartant aspect of nursing?I do. I think the person who wrote the ad was oblivious to any problem with a message that there is value in superstitious rituals.

Skeptic Ginger
8th June 2011, 03:11 PM
That is my impression as well. I found a survey which seems to back this up.

http://chronicle.uchicago.edu/050714/doctorsfaith.shtml
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1490160/

However, that is from the United States and religiosity is higher there to begin with. I'm looking for something from Canada.

LindaFrom the second link: Compared with the general population, physicians are more likely to be affiliated with religions that are underrepresented in the United States...One possible interpretation, we have a lot of foreign born doctors in the US.

The rest of the results go along with that explanation and suggest these physicians are not necessarily acting on their religious beliefs:less likely to say they try to carry their religious beliefs over into all other dealings in life (58% vs 73%), twice as likely to consider themselves spiritual but not religious (20% vs 9%), and twice as likely to cope with major problems in life without relying on God (61% vs 29%).


In the first link:Physicians are 26 times more likely to be Hindu than the overall U.S. population (5.3 percent of doctors vs. 0.2 percent of nonphysicians). Doctors are seven times more likely to be Jewish (14.1 percent vs. 1.9 percent), six times more likely to be Buddhist (1.2 percent vs. 0.2 percent) and five times more likely to be Muslim (2.7 percent vs. 0.5 percent).Again, that suggests results are impacted by the variable of foreign born physicians.



I don't have a disagreement that physicians and nurses believe in religion and superstition. I'm merely challenging whether the variable is the profession.

JohnnyG
8th June 2011, 03:14 PM
It wasn't what the nurse did that was the problem per se. It was the commentary:

"I believe in the power of science and medicine, but I'm also human and I believe in stacking the deck" [camera focuses on the charm]

If this was about compassion stacking the deck, why not something from the guy's pocket that was personal, a locket with a picture of a loved one or something? I recognize that my reaction to the ad apparently is not universal. I find that interesting. But the 4-leaf clover is imaged exactly when the "stacking the deck" comment is spoken. In addition, it follows the belief in science and medicine comment. "I'm also human" suggests the compassion message, but that is negated with the focus on the charm and the specific comment about stacking the deck.
I just watched it again, and when the "stacking the deck" comment is spoken you say the camera is focusing on the charm, but by that point the charm is already obscured by his fingers. It is actually focused on her tenderly closing his hand around an object that he believes will bring luck.

steve s
8th June 2011, 03:48 PM
For what it's worth, I had the same reaction when I first saw the commercial a few weeks ago. The impression given is that you demonstrate compassion by buying into vague magical beliefs. To point out that practices which aren't evidence-based are not likely to be useful really means that you are uncaring.

Linda

I had the same reaction.



In the hospital where I work there are no room 13's. Dead serious, the room numbers go from 12 to 14.

What does this have to do with nurses? The hospital is probably catering to the superstitions of its patients.

Steve S

fuelair
8th June 2011, 03:58 PM
I had the same reaction.




What does this have to do with nurses? The hospital is probably catering to the superstitions of its patients.

Steve S
Two minds, one thought - you beat me by about 8 minutes:):)!

fuelair
8th June 2011, 04:00 PM
I visualize here: " Wow, Room 1313 , now I know my cancer will be cured fast!! Thanks, Doc!!!!!" :D

Skeptic Ginger
8th June 2011, 04:01 PM
I just watched it again, and when the "stacking the deck" comment is spoken you say the camera is focusing on the charm, but by that point the charm is already obscured by his fingers. It is actually focused on her tenderly closing his hand around an object that he believes will bring luck.The message, intended or not, is good luck charms stack the deck. It seems quite a stretch to me to apologize for the ad claiming the deck stacking comment was not until the nurse closed the charm into the hand.

CaveDave
8th June 2011, 04:02 PM
That is my impression as well. I found a survey which seems to back this up.

http://chronicle.uchicago.edu/050714/doctorsfaith.shtml
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1490160/

However, that is from the United States and religiosity is higher there to begin with. I'm looking for something from Canada.

Linda

Thanks, Linda. My anecdotal data was mostly based on my personal experience working in a hospital, talking to Staff, and long observation of people in real life.

We don't really know why she was doing what she was doing. If the ad was meant to show that she thought she was "stacking the deck" in the patient's favor by trying to bring him luck, I see the harm as probably similar to what Skeptic Ginger sees: it implied she might not be as focussed on evidence-based treatments as she claimed, if she thought the charm would do any good as a charm.

@CaveDave

If the message was meant to imply she was giving him the lucky charm because he believed in it and she wanted to help his morale, then I think that needed to be made clearer, with something non-supernatural like a photo of a loved one from his wallet for example, or (probably more offensive for different reasons) handing a cross or rosary to one person and a symbol of some other religion to another.

Actually, I thought that he was semi-conscious and therefore not aware of what she was handing him, which probably made me more apt to interpret it as something for luck, not for his morale. Without re-watching it, I don't recall him giving any thank-you reaction, but I may have missed it.

I think this COULD be used as a sort-of psychological perception test.:D

Everyone reads it according to their preconceptions and world-view.:)

I have an anecdote to add to this observation and some thoughts on where it comes from, at least in this case:

The most religious person in my family is a pediatrician. I used to bristle a bit at her insistence that Jesus is the source of her strength mainly because she was so logical on so many other topics. I mean, she taught me the phrase "zebra chaser" for those who ignore Occam's razor and nothing gets her riled up more than anti-vaxers. Over time I have found that her job is very trying for her and she doesn't get a lot of support from her immediate family. It is tough for her to have kids die in her care and I don't think she feels like her family should have to deal with it. For her, Jesus is the answer to this problem. I don't think it is the best answer, but I understand her reasons and I would never try to take that away from her.

She takes a very scientific approach to her treatment of patients and feels that God has helped her to acquire those skills for these people and it is her duty to live up to that potential. To do less would be to ignore the obvious gifts she was given. But at the end of the day, when she gets to go home to her healthy kids after telling another mother that her child will die in the hospital, she needs to unload that burden to whatever fantasy is willing to take it.

Dissecting the synoptic gospels or exposing the inconsistencies of Genesis seem a bit petty in that context.

I feel the same way: if their beliefs harm me not, even if stupid, and make them happy, I won't interfere.

Do you really think J&J is trying to advocate lucky charms as an impoartant aspect of nursing?



I just watched it again, and when the "stacking the deck" comment is spoken you say the camera is focusing on the charm, but by that point the charm is already obscured by his fingers. It is actually focused on her tenderly closing his hand around an object that he believes will bring luck.

MY thinking, too.

Cheers,

Dave

fuelair
8th June 2011, 04:03 PM
Do you really think J&J is trying to advocate lucky charms as an impoartant aspect of nursing?

Well, they are magically delicious*!!:D












* and the L and the C should be capitalized!:jaw-dropp

CaveDave
8th June 2011, 04:12 PM
Well, they are magically delicious*!!:D



Don't forget "...and part of this Complete Breakfast"(with toast, eggs, bacon, milk, juice pictured):D

Dave

Wolrab
8th June 2011, 04:13 PM
Yeah, but they clog up the vent...


I mentioned before about my coworkers rushing to open a window if a patient was close to death. Others kept harping on how good a psychic was. I have learned the only way to bring this crap to light is to poke fun at someone other than the believer. Many are quick to agree that someone else's beliefs are stupid or unfounded. I just hope they realize their beliefs are just as suspect, but I don't hold my breath.

Foolmewunz
8th June 2011, 04:19 PM
I'd like to say that it's a pretty well-made commercial if it can garner all these different interpretations from a group of well-grounded skeptics.

While I don't necessarily disagree with the possible interpretations, on the whole, I'm with Ginger on this. If they wanted to show that she was giving comfort, they could've had him conscious and acknowledge the act, maybe with just a contented sigh. I think that would've also given more credence to the argument that she didn't necessarily believe, but she knew he did.

But having her do it in post-op? Doesn't that sort of sound like all the old cornball lines (we've seen the movies, read the books, and heard the in-laws), "We've done all we can. He's in God's hands, now."

ThunderChunky
8th June 2011, 04:21 PM
It clearly is implying that the four leaf clover is extra insurance (ie stacking the deck) for the patient to recover. They might as well have had the nurse get on her knees and pray (ok...that would have been worse, but it's the same idea minus the religion).

What is the nursing campaign about anyway?

pipelineaudio
8th June 2011, 04:31 PM
You forgot your smiley: :duck:


You have no basis for that insulting stereotype if you were serious. Nurses are no more nor less irrational than any other profession with an equivalent level of science in it.

But they are in a profession which is supposed to be science based. They should be WAY better than average. Instead you have nurses and nursing schools promoting "wellness" instead of health

Reiki, touch therapy, acupuncture, homeopathy, "traditional remedies", nursing is rampant with this crap.

Imagine if NASA had this level of woo, using voodoo to guide the rockets or something

Dragonrock
8th June 2011, 05:09 PM
You forgot your smiley: :duck:


You have no basis for that insulting stereotype if you were serious. Nurses are no more nor less irrational than any other profession with an equivalent level of science in it.

Apparantly you work with different nurses than Mrs. Rock does. From what I've seen, there is a higher level of woo in nursing than in the general population. Mrs. Rock was a critical care nurse and is now in hospice so it's possible that this is due to them being faced with death every day.

quarky
8th June 2011, 05:28 PM
Many hospitals are affiliated with religion. Nurses are often depicted as servants of god.
I found the 4-leaf clover to be a refreshing change. Harmless. generic. The reality is much wooier.

Aepervius
8th June 2011, 06:21 PM
I would - why should the ad have a lucky charm rather than any other object the patient could have dropped? And why would compassion need to be contrasted with science?

Indeed she could have had other cereal placed in her hand, it would have been the same.

autumn1971
8th June 2011, 06:30 PM
Um. . . the guy also dropped his car keys and a nickel.
I'd like to come to with my money and keys, please.

Skeptic Ginger
8th June 2011, 07:26 PM
But they are in a profession which is supposed to be science based. They should be WAY better than average. Instead you have nurses and nursing schools promoting "wellness" instead of health

Reiki, touch therapy, acupuncture, homeopathy, "traditional remedies", nursing is rampant with this crap.So are some medical schools.

Imagine if NASA had this level of woo, using voodoo to guide the rockets or somethingImagine if the ICU nurses had this level of woo. You are comparing apples and oranges. Try comparing two professional groups that operate with the same level of technical proficiency. From your example we can go to auto assembly workers and compare them to NASA engineers leaving out auto industry engineers in the comparison.


Apparantly you work with different nurses than Mrs. Rock does. From what I've seen, there is a higher level of woo in nursing than in the general population. Mrs. Rock was a critical care nurse and is now in hospice so it's possible that this is due to them being faced with death every day.
Well heck, blacks are violent, I know because they were violent where I grew up. :rolleyes:

Since when is it a forum consensus that one can describe a correct stereotype based one one's limited personal experiences?


Look, I'm the first one to say nurses are their own worst enemy. We have failed to delineate between a new graduate with a 2 yr degree working at the most basic level of nursing and a highly skilled ICU nurse with a BSN. I know, I've been in both of those positions. All I'm saying is if people are going to claim there are more woo believers among nurses than among matched controls that it be based on evidence, not on personal anecdotes supporting stereotypes. And I'm saying compare nurses to matched controls keeping in mind the very broad spectrum that goes from what I call blue collar nurses to advanced practice and PhD prepared nurses. My nurse practitioner colleagues are no more into woo than I imagine NASA engineers are.

Skeptic Ginger
8th June 2011, 07:28 PM
Um. . . the guy also dropped his car keys and a nickel.
I'd like to come to with my money and keys, please.:D

Skeptic Ginger
8th June 2011, 07:30 PM
I'd like to say that it's a pretty well-made commercial if it can garner all these different interpretations from a group of well-grounded skeptics. Those interpretations surprised me since the hedging one's bet issue was so clear to me.

While I don't necessarily disagree with the possible interpretations, on the whole, I'm with Ginger on this. If they wanted to show that she was giving comfort, they could've had him conscious and acknowledge the act, maybe with just a contented sigh. I think that would've also given more credence to the argument that she didn't necessarily believe, but she knew he did.

But having her do it in post-op? Doesn't that sort of sound like all the old cornball lines (we've seen the movies, read the books, and heard the in-laws), "We've done all we can. He's in God's hands, now."
Exactly.

Skeptic Ginger
8th June 2011, 07:35 PM
I have an anecdote to add to this observation and some thoughts on where it comes from, at least in this case:

The most religious person in my family is a pediatrician. I used to bristle a bit at her insistence that Jesus is the source of her strength mainly because she was so logical on so many other topics. I mean, she taught me the phrase "zebra chaser" for those who ignore Occam's razor and nothing gets her riled up more than anti-vaxers. Over time I have found that her job is very trying for her and she doesn't get a lot of support from her immediate family. It is tough for her to have kids die in her care and I don't think she feels like her family should have to deal with it. For her, Jesus is the answer to this problem. I don't think it is the best answer, but I understand her reasons and I would never try to take that away from her.

She takes a very scientific approach to her treatment of patients and feels that God has helped her to acquire those skills for these people and it is her duty to live up to that potential. To do less would be to ignore the obvious gifts she was given. But at the end of the day, when she gets to go home to her healthy kids after telling another mother that her child will die in the hospital, she needs to unload that burden to whatever fantasy is willing to take it.

Dissecting the synoptic gospels or exposing the inconsistencies of Genesis seem a bit petty in that context.I would have seen the ad as saying supporting the patient's beliefs mattered if the words echoed that. "Stacking the deck" says cross your fingers, keep a rabbits foot, pray, yadda yadda. It doesn't say what the other commercials in the series say, "nurses care" or a message to that effect. For example, there's another commercial in the same series about a hospice nurse and a dying woman who believes one opens the window to let a dying soul out. The nurse says, "Not tonight Berta" Clearly the nurse is responding to the patient's beliefs, not agreeing with them in that commercial.

Pp-AMyiYbNU

Subduction Zone
8th June 2011, 08:01 PM
Sorry but I did not feel that she was advocating luck. If the patient seriously believed in things like his lucky charm the presence of it could comfort him and its lack could make him upset. The mental condition of a patient can greatly effect his recovery.

But I might be projecting why I would give it to the patient. I also have had a doctor friend who believed in his share of woo. And my sister's sister in law actually brought up Reiki as a possible alternate treatment for my father who is in a nursing home after he received a brain injury. I was taking her advice seriously until she mentioned that. At that point I lost all respect for her. I did not debunk her nonsense in front of my mother because she is having a tough enough time already. But it did tick me off.

Xplodyncow
8th June 2011, 08:16 PM
The campaign's objective is to address the nursing shortage by motivating people to join the profession. (See FAQ #3 at the Discover Nursing website, which I can't link to, since I'm too new. D'oh!)

If you [by "you" I mean anyone who cares to chime in] were to shoot a commercial to try to get more people to be nurses, what would it be like?

I'm guessing one of J+J's ad agencies produced the campaign, which was then approved by some J+J marketing types -- so it's likely none of the people involved have had much exposure to the awesomeness of skepticism and critical thinking or to the problems that arise with the infiltration of woo into science-based medicine.

I doubt the intention was to promote superstition, but it might be good to do some "consciousness raising" and let J+J know just how this ad, and others like it, can be interpreted. I'll see if I can find some more direct contact information.

Skeptic Ginger
8th June 2011, 09:12 PM
The campaign's objective is to address the nursing shortage by motivating people to join the profession. (See FAQ #3 at the Discover Nursing website, which I can't link to, since I'm too new. D'oh!)

If you [by "you" I mean anyone who cares to chime in] were to shoot a commercial to try to get more people to be nurses, what would it be like?

I'm guessing one of J+J's ad agencies produced the campaign, which was then approved by some J+J marketing types -- so it's likely none of the people involved have had much exposure to the awesomeness of skepticism and critical thinking or to the problems that arise with the infiltration of woo into science-based medicine.

I doubt the intention was to promote superstition, but it might be good to do some "consciousness raising" and let J+J know just how this ad, and others like it, can be interpreted. I'll see if I can find some more direct contact information.Copy the link and add some spaces, we can take it from there.

Xplodyncow
8th June 2011, 09:33 PM
Copy the link and add some spaces, we can take it from there.

Sorry about that. Does this work?

www discovernursing com/frequently-asked-questions#3

7th sextile
8th June 2011, 09:57 PM
More troublesome for me is ; "I believe in the power of science and medicine...but I'm ALSO
human..." - eh?

The Norseman
8th June 2011, 10:27 PM
Sorry about that. Does this work?

www discovernursing com/frequently-asked-questions#3

www.discovernursing.com/frequently-asked-questions#3


Yup!

pipelineaudio
9th June 2011, 12:03 AM
Imagine if the ICU nurses had this level of woo. You are comparing apples and oranges. Try comparing two professional groups that operate with the same level of technical proficiency. From your example we can go to auto assembly workers and compare them to NASA engineers leaving out auto industry engineers in the comparison.

Much like the way Christopher Hitchens denies the No True Scottsman-Christian Apologist dodging attempt, I would say the same thing

Its not MY fault that all these (different according to you) use the same name to describe themselves "nurse"

Foolmewunz
9th June 2011, 03:48 AM
If one was to add "big thumbs" and "Neil Young" to the tags or subject, I'll bet you a Big Fig we could see a totally different perspective to this topic.

(Just sayin' .....)

Goshawk
9th June 2011, 07:41 AM
I think you have to look at the purpose for the video; what is Johnson & Johnson trying to accomplish with it? Answer: they're trying to recruit young people to become nurses, because there's a chronic nationwide nursing shortage. People, especially young people, perceive nursing as being all about bedpans and ickiness, so the Campaign for Nursing's Future is trying to glamorize it, make it exciting and interesting.

So they do this by putting out a video full of shaky handheld camera work and quick jump cuts, and they deliberately add a mystical element with the lucky charm, in order to glamorize nursing. Let's face it, millions of teens out there who are looking at career choices are also the ones paying big bucks for movies and books about glamorous sparkling vampires, so I can see the thinking behind this. Make it kinda spooky, make it mysterious, and maybe you'll attract kids to nursing who are intrigued by the aspect of the weird stuff that all doctors and nurses have seen happen.

I don't see anything worthy of outrage here, unless you're outraged by Madison Avenue.

rwguinn
9th June 2011, 07:43 AM
If you go looking for things to be insulted by, you can always find them.

Foolmewunz
9th June 2011, 07:49 AM
If you go looking for things to be insulted by, you can always find them.

Yep. Right there in your post, in fact. :p

ETA: smiley

Emet
9th June 2011, 07:59 AM
Nursing rap:

3947710647023200383#

Skeptic Ginger
9th June 2011, 09:17 AM
...
Its not MY fault that all these (different according to you) use the same name to describe themselves "nurse"Like I said, sometimes nurses are their own worst enemy. :)

Skeptic Ginger
9th June 2011, 09:20 AM
Nursing rap:

3947710647023200383#:D THat's great, Emet.

Skeptic Ginger
9th June 2011, 09:25 AM
I think you have to look at the purpose for the video; what is Johnson & Johnson trying to accomplish with it? ....
I don't see anything worthy of outrage here, unless you're outraged by Madison Avenue.If you go looking for things to be insulted by, you can always find them.
Well actually, Madison Av outrages me frequently. ;)


I did not go looking to be insulted. I happen to like the fact there are commercials touting the importance and skills of nurses.

This is repetitive but I'll say it again, if one is sensitized to the 'bad' medicine issue, the statement that a superstitious ritual stacks the deck beyond science based medicine stands out.

TheClaw
9th June 2011, 09:42 AM
Am I the only one who noticed that this guy did have his lucky charm with him when he was in a near-fatal accident!

If it didn't help him then, I doubt it's going to help him now.

Nursedan
9th June 2011, 10:38 AM
I don't understand the ad.

What does it have to do with J+J? What are they advertising/promoting?

Skeptic Ginger
9th June 2011, 11:59 AM
Am I the only one who noticed that this guy did have his lucky charm with him when he was in a near-fatal accident!

If it didn't help him then, I doubt it's going to help him now.No, you were not the only one who noticed. :)

Skeptic Ginger
9th June 2011, 12:03 PM
While I'm sorry for beating a dead horse, I have a question.

Which phrases are more likely correlated:

Compassion stacks the deck, or good luck charms stack the deck?

I get it that one can rationalize how compassion would stack the deck. That's not the question. The question is if you heard someone refer to stacking the deck, would compassion or a good luck charm be the thing you would think of first?

CaveDave
9th June 2011, 12:57 PM
Am I the only one who noticed that this guy did have his lucky charm with him when he was in a near-fatal accident!

If it didn't help him then, I doubt it's going to help him now.

Good catch.

But, as they say, "Hope springs Eternal...";)

ETA: "GOD must have NEEDED my wife and children in Heaven so He Called Them Home in the crash, but He gave us a MIRACLE by saving my DOG...":rolleyes:

Dave

Subduction Zone
9th June 2011, 01:00 PM
Am I the only one who noticed that this guy did have his lucky charm with him when he was in a near-fatal accident!

If it didn't help him then, I doubt it's going to help him now.

As already stated, you weren't the only one. But people have irrational beliefs. The patients mental state could be aided by the presence of his lucky charm, that can have an effect on his physical well being. The lucky charm itself will not change affect his "luck". There are benefits from the placebo effect, which is the most you can hope for from a lucky charm.

ETA: The gesture by the nurse is equivalent to a nurse making sure that a cherished stuffed toy is in a child's bed when it is recovering. There is no healing power in the stuffed animal itself, but again it can help ease the child's mind.

CaveDave
9th June 2011, 01:05 PM
Well said.

Dave

Pup
9th June 2011, 01:07 PM
While I'm sorry for beating a dead horse, I have a question.

Which phrases are more likely correlated:

Compassion stacks the deck, or good luck charms stack the deck?

I get it that one can rationalize how compassion would stack the deck. That's not the question. The question is if you heard someone refer to stacking the deck, would compassion or a good luck charm be the thing you would think of first?

Y'know, honestly, I don't think either one really makes sense. To me, "stacking the deck" means cheating, or in other words, guaranteeing the outcome of something that otherwise would have a random possibility of occurring, through some special manipulation.

In medicine, I don't think that's possible. There's always a bell curve, or something similar, that gives a range of possible outcomes, but no way to cheat or guarantee.

That's part of what bothers me about the commercial. It implies that good luck charms or similar paranormal things are more powerful than science, and can "cheat" the odds, when the scientific odds would already in theory take into account everything that would affect the patient's chances, including the compassion of nurses, his attitude, etc.

Rasmus
9th June 2011, 01:07 PM
As already stated, you weren't the only one. But people have irrational beliefs. The patients mental state could be aided by the presence of his lucky charm, that can have an effect on his physical well being. The lucky charm itself will not change affect his "luck". There are benefits from the placebo effect, which is the most you can hope for from a lucky charm.

ETA: The gesture by the nurse is equivalent to a nurse making sure that a cherished stuffed toy is in a child's bed when it is recovering. There is no healing power in the stuffed animal itself, but again it can help ease the child's mind.

yes. but they didn't use a child as the patient or a teddy bear, did they? They didn't actually say "compassion", right?

Where does the annoying habit come from to keep twisting and turning what somebody does to the point where whatever remains can be interpreted in a way that it at least almost sane?

madurobob
9th June 2011, 01:09 PM
I get it that one can rationalize how compassion would stack the deck. That's not the question. The question is if you heard someone refer to stacking the deck, would compassion or a good luck charm be the thing you would think of first?

Depends on who is doing the talking. If its some loony woo-ster I'd assume the latter. If it was someone I assumed had a rational science-based mindset then I'd assume the former. Up until I started reading the responses in this thread I would have put nurses in the "rational science-based mindset" category. That pretty much describes the nurses I've dealt with. But, apparently my experience is not typical.

JohnnyG
9th June 2011, 01:13 PM
While I'm sorry for beating a dead horse, I have a question.

Which phrases are more likely correlated:

Compassion stacks the deck, or good luck charms stack the deck?

I get it that one can rationalize how compassion would stack the deck. That's not the question. The question is if you heard someone refer to stacking the deck, would compassion or a good luck charm be the thing you would think of first?

To be honest, neither.

Let me rephrase your question:
Which aspect of nursing do you believe J&J, a supplier of science-based medical supplies, considers valuable enough to fund a national advertising campaign: Compassion or good luck charms?

Since it is so easily misinterpreted the ad was arguably a poor choice, but to think they are actively promoting good luck charms is quite a stretch.

Subduction Zone
9th June 2011, 01:41 PM
yes. but they didn't use a child as the patient or a teddy bear, did they? They didn't actually say "compassion", right?

Where does the annoying habit come from to keep twisting and turning what somebody does to the point where whatever remains can be interpreted in a way that it at least almost sane?

I might be projecting. If I saw that the person had a lucky charm I would give it back to him, knowing full well that the charm itself had no power. The wording of the commercial was poor to say the least. I will admit that the not taking any chances phrase could have been worded much better.

Emet
9th June 2011, 01:57 PM
It appears this issue has a longer history:

Johnson & Johnson's Campaign for Nursing Future

Touching the world

May 2006 -- Since last year, Johnson & Johnson has been running new 30-second U.S. television ads with the laudable goal of promoting nursing careers. These sentimental ads are part of the company's massive "Campaign for Nursing's Future" begun several years ago.
(...)
Of course "caring" is an important part of nursing. But everyone knows that, and we believe that only greater understanding that nurses actually save lives and improve patient outcomes will attract the resources nursing needs in the long term.
(...)
Of course, J&J has done more than distribute questionable recruitment materials. To its credit, the company has provided resources for nursing scholarships and fellowships, as well as an extensive, high production value web site (which the Center helped create) full of information about nursing careers. The main page of that site says:

The job outlook is tough these days, but one job is in high demand--nursing. Did you know that well paying jobs for Registered Nurses are available in almost every city in America? But it's not just the job market that makes nursing a good career choice. As a nurse, you have the opportunity to save and improve lives, to teach people how to achieve better health, to advocate for patients to make sure they have the best health care, every day. Learn more about a career in nursing.

Maybe it's because we wrote the italicized sentence for J&J, but we think this description of the actual work of nursing is very good, and we commend J&J for putting it front and center on their site. If only their TV ads reflected that focus on life-saving and advocacy!
(...)
We applaud J&J for continuing to put significant resources into addressing the nursing crisis. We hope the company will show an equal commitment to ensuring that the messages it sends in its public communications actually advance that worthy goal.

http://www.nursingadvocacy.org/media/commercials/jnj_2005.html

Response from Johnson & Johnson

The Johnson & Johnson Campaign for Nursing's Future
(...)
The Center for Nursing Advocacy replies
(...)

http://www.nursingadvocacy.org/media/commercials/jnj_2005_response.html

rwguinn
9th June 2011, 01:57 PM
yes. but they didn't use a child as the patient or a teddy bear, did they? They didn't actually say "compassion", right?

Where does the annoying habit come from to keep twisting and turning what somebody does to the point where whatever remains can be interpreted in a way that it at least almost sane?
It comes from the same place that twisting and turning what someones does or says to the point that it becomes a perceived insult.
It's called "being human". Some posters here ought to try it sometime. Going through life absolutely sure that you're correct in everything you think (bun not necessarily everything you do) has got to be a strain...

Skeptic Ginger
9th June 2011, 01:59 PM
As already stated, you weren't the only one. But people have irrational beliefs. The patients mental state could be aided by the presence of his lucky charm, that can have an effect on his physical well being. The lucky charm itself will not change affect his "luck". There are benefits from the placebo effect, which is the most you can hope for from a lucky charm.

ETA: The gesture by the nurse is equivalent to a nurse making sure that a cherished stuffed toy is in a child's bed when it is recovering. There is no healing power in the stuffed animal itself, but again it can help ease the child's mind.
A stuffed animal would have sent an acceptable message, no doubt it was about compassion and not about superstition.

Skeptic Ginger
9th June 2011, 02:02 PM
... Up until I started reading the responses in this thread I would have put nurses in the "rational science-based mindset" category. That pretty much describes the nurses I've dealt with. But, apparently my experience is not typical.I work with both kinds of nurses currently. It's especially apparent when it comes to flu vaccine. The nurses who refuse the vacine generally don't get the concept of science based medicine. Those that get the vaccination at least recognize the evidence regarding the vaccine.

MG1962
9th June 2011, 02:06 PM
A stuffed animal would have sent an acceptable message, no doubt it was about compassion and not about superstition.

Seriously Ginger quit while you are behind

Skeptic Ginger
9th June 2011, 02:10 PM
To be honest, neither.

Let me rephrase your question:
Which aspect of nursing do you believe J&J, a supplier of science-based medical supplies, considers valuable enough to fund a national advertising campaign: Compassion or good luck charms?

Since it is so easily misinterpreted the ad was arguably a poor choice, but to think they are actively promoting good luck charms is quite a stretch.I didn't say they were promoting superstition. I said they were implying nurses accepted the value of good luck charms. Actually, they imply "being human" means one accepts the value of good luck charms.

As for what the ad producers/sponsors intended, I think this is one of those all too common incidences when the unskeptical message whooshed over their heads. It was more like taking superstition for granted and not noticing it was a negative message.


As more and more reactions to this ad are posted, it seems to me that I am particularly sensitive to framing and word choice and not everyone has yet become aware of how powerful these underlying messages can be. It's a different topic and there are threads that cover the subject so no need going off in that direction here. Suffice it to say, there can be a lot of communication that goes on between the lines. This is one of those times.

Skeptic Ginger
9th June 2011, 02:12 PM
Seriously Ginger quit while you are behindQuit what? Do you suggest I should fake my opinion to conform to the group, or just pretend I don't have one?

Skeptic Ginger
9th June 2011, 02:20 PM
It appears this issue has a longer history:

http://www.nursingadvocacy.org/media/commercials/jnj_2005.html

http://www.nursingadvocacy.org/media/commercials/jnj_2005_response.htmlThe Nurse Advocacy complains along a similar line:We praised the "Nurse Scientists" video and the J&J web site. But we explained why the most powerful elements of the image campaign--the TV commercials--rely heavily on the same kind of emotional, maternal and "angel" imagery that has long been a factor in nursing not getting the resources and real respect it needs.Definitely something that has been an issue with me since I became aware of the problem in the early 80s. Thanks for the links.


The rest of the paragraph is worth quoting here as well.We agree that nurses must be caring and compassionate. It's also no surprise that most people like being portrayed as noble, nor that career seekers in a tight job market will respond to big-budget ads promoting a profession that offers many relatively well-paying jobs. But that does not mean that it is in nurses' best interest to be seen primarily as kind hand-holders. We believe that only aggressive efforts to tell the public what it does not know about nursing--that nurses save lives and improve patient outcomes--are likely to attract the resources the profession needs to recruit, educate and retain the best candidates over the long term, and to avert the global nursing crisis.

JohnnyG
9th June 2011, 03:04 PM
I didn't say they were promoting superstition. I said they were implying nurses accepted the value of good luck charms.
...snip...
I think you need to turn down the gain on your woo detector.

MG1962
9th June 2011, 03:20 PM
Quit what? Do you suggest I should fake my opinion to conform to the group, or just pretend I don't have one?

No because you are nashing your teeth over nothing. Human emotion has no place in medicine? Good luck with that

caniswalensis
9th June 2011, 03:32 PM
You Damn nurses!


...always after my lucky charms!

:D

Skeptic Ginger
9th June 2011, 04:16 PM
I think you need to turn down the gain on your woo detector.

I think you need to turn up the 'gain'? on your framing science analyzer. ;)

Skeptic Ginger
9th June 2011, 04:17 PM
No because you are nashing your teeth over nothing. Human emotion has no place in medicine? Good luck with thatNow you've lost me further. :boggled:

CaveDave
9th June 2011, 04:23 PM
Y'know, honestly, I don't think either one really makes sense. To me, "stacking the deck" means cheating, or in other words, guaranteeing the outcome of something that otherwise would have a random possibility of occurring, through some special manipulation.

In medicine, I don't think that's possible. There's always a bell curve, or something similar, that gives a range of possible outcomes, but no way to cheat or guarantee.

That's part of what bothers me about the commercial. It implies that good luck charms or similar paranormal things are more powerful than science, and can "cheat" the odds, when the scientific odds would already in theory take into account everything that would affect the patient's chances, including the compassion of nurses, his attitude, etc.

And if the patient's outcome might be marginally improved by allowing them their beliefs, what harm?

yes. but they didn't use a child as the patient or a teddy bear, did they? They didn't actually say "compassion", right?

Where does the annoying habit come from to keep twisting and turning what somebody does to the point where whatever remains can be interpreted in a way that it at least almost sane?

Yeah, sometimes happens...

Depends on who is doing the talking. If its some loony woo-ster I'd assume the latter. If it was someone I assumed had a rational science-based mindset then I'd assume the former. Up until I started reading the responses in this thread I would have put nurses in the "rational science-based mindset" category. That pretty much describes the nurses I've dealt with. But, apparently my experience is not typical.

To be honest, neither.

Let me rephrase your question:
Which aspect of nursing do you believe J&J, a supplier of science-based medical supplies, considers valuable enough to fund a national advertising campaign: Compassion or good luck charms?

Since it is so easily misinterpreted the ad was arguably a poor choice, but to think they are actively promoting good luck charms is quite a stretch.

I might be projecting. If I saw that the person had a lucky charm I would give it back to him, knowing full well that the charm itself had no power. The wording of the commercial was poor to say the least. I will admit that the not taking any chances phrase could have been worded much better.

It comes from the same place that twisting and turning what someones does or says to the point that it becomes a perceived insult.
It's called "being human". Some posters here ought to try it sometime. Going through life absolutely sure that you're correct in everything you think (bun not necessarily everything you do) has got to be a strain...

I think you need to turn down the gain on your woo detector.

Cheers,

Dave

JohnnyG
9th June 2011, 04:29 PM
I think you need to turn up the 'gain'? on your framing science analyzer. ;)

How original.

MG1962
9th June 2011, 04:30 PM
Now you've lost me further. :boggled:

Why do placebos exist?

Belz...
9th June 2011, 04:45 PM
If you hadn't pointed out it could be interpreted as the nurse supporting superstitition, I wouldn't have thought of it. I interpreted the action as showing compassion, trying to make the patient feel better, etc., even if the nurse found the ideas silly.

Now I'm conflicted. Someone could easily interpret it the first way.

Yes, there is more than one interpretation, here. I don't see why Johnson and Johnson would support superstition. If they do, however, it's pretty silly. What's in it for them ?

Belz...
9th June 2011, 04:48 PM
This is also quite true. I have noticed that medical people, especially Physicians, tend to be more prone to Religion and other Superstitious Beliefs more often than most other "People of Science"

Doctors apply science done by others. They usually don't actually do science.

Pup
9th June 2011, 05:02 PM
And if the patient's outcome might be marginally improved by allowing them their beliefs, what harm?

But that's not outside of science, if it can be shown to marginally improve their outcome, whether it's due to a more positive attitude or whatever.

That's my point: if it works, it's already part of science, and already factored into the odds of a positive outcome, as much as giving antibiotics or physical therapy.

If it doesn't work, but the nurse think it'll cheat the odds anyway, that's where the woo comes in.

Pup
9th June 2011, 05:03 PM
Yes, there is more than one interpretation, here. I don't see why Johnson and Johnson would support superstition. If they do, however, it's pretty silly. What's in it for them ?

It shows they're "human" and not just made up of those cold, uncaring scientists.

Skeptic Ginger
9th June 2011, 06:47 PM
Why do placebos exist?Is this a game? :)

Skeptic Ginger
9th June 2011, 06:56 PM
And if the patient's outcome might be marginally improved by allowing them their beliefs, what harm?...
Cheers,

DaveThere's actually science behind nursing actions involving supporting a patient's belief system. One must compromise between supporting those beliefs and confronting them. It's part of what we do.

For example, to get a patient to actually comply with a treatment regimen one might incorporate the patient's beliefs about curanderas (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/curandera) or other cultural beliefs. You would want to work with the patient, not against the patient.

You would want to acknowledge in a non-judgmental way these kinds of things because you don't want the patient hiding information from you. For example, some supplements interact with prescription drugs. If you are judgmental the patient will likely just nopt tell you they are taking other things.

But if you have an anti-vaxer parent, there are ways to confront the false beliefs and in such a case, you might want to do that.

Compassion is not a bad thing, nor is it NOT part of nursing science. It's just that communicating the image is an important matter in nursing separate from the science of nursing.

Jeff Corey
9th June 2011, 07:18 PM
Do you really think J&J is trying to advocate lucky charms as an impoartant aspect of nursing?

No, these are probably not effective for most ailments. http://www.productwiki.com/upload/images/lucky_charms.png But giving a person something that they carried around that might make them feel better is something I would do. What's the harm?

Emet
9th June 2011, 07:23 PM
What's the harm?

Nuttin', honey (http://www.inthe80s.com/cereal/images/user-image-1217834830.jpg). ;)

truethat
9th June 2011, 07:29 PM
I didn't take it to mean that the nurse believes in superstition, but when she noticed the four leaf clover she realized that the patient may be a believer. She puts it in his hand for his reassurance, not because she is superstitious. The ad is basically saying that compassion is an important part of nursing in addition to science.

I think this ad is a trivial thing to go on a rampage about. If Johnson & Johnson were marketing a four leaf clover for the enhanced treatment of ER patients, yes...I'll stand with you. But this? Meh.

I totally agree. What a silly thing to get up in arms about Skeptic, I mean if she picked out the four leaf clover from a good luck bin at the nurses station that might make sense for you to interpret it as if she was saying "I got all this science behind me but a little superstition never hurt anyone."


They showed that it was his keys falling out, it was his key chain. If he has a lucky charm she's gonna give it to him. This is showing her compassion.


I mean you could make an issue if you wanted to, because what is the point of the ad?

MG1962
9th June 2011, 07:33 PM
Is this a game? :)

I take it from your obtuse responses you know you are wrong. A placebo has as much effect as a good luck charm. Placebos are used to identify the people who are talking themselves into getting better and those who are physically responding to the treatment.

The nurse placing that good luck charm in the hand of the patient is no reflection of the nurses belief system. It is however an indication of her dedication to her field that she plays any card no matter how small to improve the lot of the patient. But thats a positive message so you will clearly will refuse to see it

Zelenius
9th June 2011, 07:39 PM
Wow.

Reactions like this could give skeptics a bad name. I fail to see what was so offensive about this ad, since it could be interpreted in many ways. There is no reason for J&J to be promoting woo or lucky charms; it's a big stretch to claim this is an endorsement of woo or anti-science in any way.

Yeah, okay that "stacking the deck" bit while returning a patients shamrock is the height of woo and superstition promotion. To me, it just seems to be celebrating compassionate nursing, which I guess is now considered a form of new age quackery to one or more skeptics on this forum. I suppose a more competent, skeptical nurse would have been like the solipsistic, anti-woo nitpickers on this board, who, in a situation identical to the nurse in the ad would have just thrown away the lucky charm(even if they knew it belonged to the injured patient), since it would be bad medicine to return a patient's personal possession to him if it is obviously related to a superstitious belief. Obviously, helping a badly injured patient feel emotionally better is not known to affect medical outcomes.

Anyhow, I'm far more disturbed by the continued infiltration of quackery into medical schools and hospitals, but that's just me.

ConspicuousCarl
9th June 2011, 09:35 PM
I didn't take it to mean that the nurse believes in superstition, but when she noticed the four leaf clover she realized that the patient may be a believer. She puts it in his hand for his reassurance, not because she is superstitious.

I don't understand how people can be missing the obvious point of the narration. She very clearly contrasts science with a lucky charm to "stack the deck". Stacking the deck refers to something done to alter the physical outcome, not something you do just for symbolism.

If the last line had been something like "...but I also believe in emotional support", then I would agree.

Myriad
9th June 2011, 09:55 PM
I think the ad developers made a very careful choice of what object to use, and nine out of ten ad agencies would make the same choice given the same basic outline of the ad, e.g. that the patient is an adult male. They chose the four leaf clover because it's simple and iconic, like just about everything in video ads.

Imagine trying to compose the ad with a picture of his wife instead of the four leaf clover. Can we see what the picture shows on video? We need a zoom-in, extra time and extra motion. How do we even know it's his wife? What was the picture doing there? Why put it in his hand, it's non-tactile paper and wouldn't it just get crushed? All these distractions would be introduced, or extra time spent setting the scene up to avoid them, when every second is at a premium.

The phrasing "stacking the deck" isn't perfect but what other wording would be? Again, there's about one second to get the idea across, and I always hesitate to criticize wording unless I can think of better wording under the same constraints. In this case I can't so far. (I'll keep thinking about it though. "...stacking every +1 modifier I can" might work, if everyone were D&D players, but even that's more than a second longer.)

The ad director's task was something like, show a nurse performing a not medically necessary but thoughtful and compassionate act that's visually clear within a few seconds after also showing her performing emergency medical procedures, with her voice-over describing a philosophy of care that calls attention to both aspects in turn. Not easy.

Respectfully,
Myriad

KodeBlue
9th June 2011, 10:02 PM
I don't understand the ad.

What does it have to do with J+J? What are they advertising/promoting?

Every year J&J releases a series of commercials highlighting Nursing as a profession. Some of them have been very good, and given a very positive view of nurses.
I haven't seen the video in question as I'm at work and vid's are blocked here, but I'd give thme the benefit of the doubt. They have genrally presented a positive image of Nursing, an dbelieve me in my 31 years as a nurse, I've seen the good, the bad, and worst when it comes to depictions of nurses.

CaveDave
9th June 2011, 10:20 PM
Doctors apply science done by others. They usually don't actually do science.

When I used that term, I meant Scientific application and use of scientific knowledge and methods, not necessarily research science, though many do that, too. This as opposed to blind "recipe following" used in some careers.

Dave

CaveDave
9th June 2011, 10:36 PM
But that's not outside of science, if it can be shown to marginally improve their outcome, whether it's due to a more positive attitude or whatever.

That's my point: if it works, it's already part of science, and already factored into the odds of a positive outcome, as much as giving antibiotics or physical therapy.

If it doesn't work, but the nurse think it'll cheat the odds anyway, that's where the woo comes in.

I would imagine rational nurses would see there being a benefit to raising the comfort and confidence level of the patient and that no harm was done and the patient would feel more positive, maximizing chance of improvement (stacking the deck).

There's actually science behind nursing actions involving supporting a patient's belief system. One must compromise between supporting those beliefs and confronting them. It's part of what we do.

For example, to get a patient to actually comply with a treatment regimen one might incorporate the patient's beliefs about curanderas (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/curandera) or other cultural beliefs. You would want to work with the patient, not against the patient.

You would want to acknowledge in a non-judgmental way these kinds of things because you don't want the patient hiding information from you. For example, some supplements interact with prescription drugs. If you are judgmental the patient will likely just nopt tell you they are taking other things.

But if you have an anti-vaxer parent, there are ways to confront the false beliefs and in such a case, you might want to do that.

Compassion is not a bad thing, nor is it NOT part of nursing science. It's just that communicating the image is an important matter in nursing separate from the science of nursing.

No, these are probably not effective for most ailments. http://www.productwiki.com/upload/images/lucky_charms.png But giving a person something that they carried around that might make them feel better is something I would do. What's the harm?

I take it from your obtuse responses you know you are wrong. A placebo has as much effect as a good luck charm. Placebos are used to identify the people who are talking themselves into getting better and those who are physically responding to the treatment.

The nurse placing that good luck charm in the hand of the patient is no reflection of the nurses belief system. It is however an indication of her dedication to her field that she plays any card no matter how small to improve the lot of the patient. But thats a positive message so you will clearly will refuse to see it

Wow.

Reactions like this could give skeptics a bad name. I fail to see what was so offensive about this ad, since it could be interpreted in many ways. There is no reason for J&J to be promoting woo or lucky charms; it's a big stretch to claim this is an endorsement of woo or anti-science in any way.

Yeah, okay that "stacking the deck" bit while returning a patients shamrock is the height of woo and superstition promotion. To me, it just seems to be celebrating compassionate nursing, which I guess is now considered a form of new age quackery to one or more skeptics on this forum. I suppose a more competent, skeptical nurse would have been like the solipsistic, anti-woo nitpickers on this board, who, in a situation identical to the nurse in the ad would have just thrown away the lucky charm(even if they knew it belonged to the injured patient), since it would be bad medicine to return a patient's personal possession to him if it is obviously related to a superstitious belief. Obviously, helping a badly injured patient feel emotionally better is not known to affect medical outcomes.

Anyhow, I'm far more disturbed by the continued infiltration of quackery into medical schools and hospitals, but that's just me.

Cheers,

Dave

Skeptic Ginger
9th June 2011, 10:41 PM
No, these are probably not effective for most ailments. http://www.productwiki.com/upload/images/lucky_charms.png But giving a person something that they carried around that might make them feel better is something I would do. What's the harm?
That's not the issue.

Rasmus
9th June 2011, 10:42 PM
It comes from the same place that twisting and turning what someones does or says to the point that it becomes a perceived insult.

I don't feel insulted by the ad - but then, I am not a nurse.

It's called "being human". Some posters here ought to try it sometime. Going through life absolutely sure that you're correct in everything you think (bun not necessarily everything you do) has got to be a strain...

I am not absolutely sure - but of course I try. Why would i continue to think stuff i thought was incorrect?

Skeptic Ginger
9th June 2011, 10:55 PM
I take it from your obtuse responses you know you are wrong.Prior to this post, I did not understand what your post meant. Then when I said as much you gave more cryptic responses. Maybe you think your point was obvious. But when someone says they don't understand, it's been my experience they don't understand. Cryptic replies are not helpful.


A placebo has as much effect as a good luck charm. Placebos are used to identify the people who are talking themselves into getting better and those who are physically responding to the treatment.

The nurse placing that good luck charm in the hand of the patient is no reflection of the nurses belief system. It is however an indication of her dedication to her field that she plays any card no matter how small to improve the lot of the patient. But thats a positive message so you will clearly will refuse to see itYou also don't get the issue. It is not about the nurse putting the charm in the guy's hand. It is not about the nurse as a compassionate professional. It's not about an ad that says nurses are compassionate.

The issue is about an ad implying nurses buy into superstitious nonsense in addition to science based medicine. The issue is a nurse saying a charm stacks the deck.

Pup
10th June 2011, 04:08 AM
I would imagine rational nurses would see there being a benefit to raising the comfort and confidence level of the patient and that no harm was done and the patient would feel more positive, maximizing chance of improvement (stacking the deck).

But the ad would make no sense if it showed the nurse doing other evidence-based things to improve the chance of a positive outcome: checking vital signs, starting an IV, saying encouraging words, and then showed her giving him an antibiotic and said "we also believe in stacking the deck." The reaction would be: Huh?

The point of the ad is that there's a categorical difference between the lucky charm and everything else, so the science-based medicine gives him certain odds, but the lucky charm somehow cheats those odds.

She very clearly contrasts science with a lucky charm to "stack the deck". Stacking the deck refers to something done to alter the physical outcome, not something you do just for symbolism.

Exactly.

As far as how to do it better, how about: Scene shows the patient surrounded by medical equipment, similar to the start. You can barely tell there's a human being under all the "sciencey" equipment. The nurse hands him his lucky charm. Voiceover says, "but I also remember that behind the numbers, there's a human being."

Makes it more clear she's taking into consideration the patient's beliefs, not her own, and still gets across that a nurse can bridge the gap between the cold calculations of medical science and the emotional needs of the patient.

truethat
10th June 2011, 06:56 AM
Prior to this post, I did not understand what your post meant. Then when I said as much you gave more cryptic responses. Maybe you think your point was obvious. But when someone says they don't understand, it's been my experience they don't understand. Cryptic replies are not helpful.


You also don't get the issue. It is not about the nurse putting the charm in the guy's hand. It is not about the nurse as a compassionate professional. It's not about an ad that says nurses are compassionate.

The issue is about an ad implying nurses buy into superstitious nonsense in addition to science based medicine. The issue is a nurse saying a charm stacks the deck.


Again, since you ignored it before. It isn't as if the nurse is shown going to the nurses station and picking up a four leaf charm out of a bin on the counter and then sticking it in the patients hand.

It is clearly shown that the keys fall out of the man's pans when they are moving him.

It's also clearly shown that she's giving it to him after he's been attended to.


I think I could see it your way if during surgery she brought it in etc. It seems the gist of the ad is that nurses are the ones who are there after all the technical things are done and she's going to be there for you in ways that go beyond just the technical part of doing the job.

I've had three kids. And I don't remember the name of my doctors that delivered the babies. But I DO remember the name of the nurses that helped me deliver each of my kids and helped me afterward.

My take on the ad is more about supporting the patient and being compassionate.


I think the juxtapostion of science and "luck" are what is bothering you. If they hadn't used "science" I don't think it would have have come across the same way.

madurobob
10th June 2011, 06:56 AM
The point of the ad is that there's a categorical difference between the lucky charm and everything else, so the science-based medicine gives him certain odds, but the lucky charm somehow cheats those odds.

As has been said several times, there is another equally appropriate way to interpret this. You can say:

"...the science-based medicine gives him certain odds, but the lucky charm somehow cheats those odds"

or

"...the science-based medicine gives him certain odds, but the nurse's compassion help him feel more secure in a frightening environment and that is helpful and a key benefit nurses provide."


You can choose to focus on the object itself (the lucky charm) or you can focus on the nurse's action (showing compassion for a patient).

truethat
10th June 2011, 07:00 AM
As has been said several times, there is another equally appropriate way to interpret this. You can say:

"...the science-based medicine gives him certain odds, but the lucky charm somehow cheats those odds"

or

"...the science-based medicine gives him certain odds, but the nurse's compassion help him feel more secure in a frightening environment and that is helpful and a key benefit nurses provide."


You can choose to focus on the object itself (the lucky charm) or you can focus on the nurse's action (showing compassion for a patient).



Exactly. And to me if the nurse had brought in the lucky charm herself then you could see it the first way. But the ad goes to the trouble of being sure you know it's HIS charm.

The fact that it is attached to his keys.

Myriad
10th June 2011, 07:04 AM
As far as how to do it better, how about: Scene shows the patient surrounded by medical equipment, similar to the start. You can barely tell there's a human being under all the "sciencey" equipment. The nurse hands him his lucky charm. Voiceover says, "but I also remember that behind the numbers, there's a human being."

Makes it more clear she's taking into consideration the patient's beliefs, not her own, and still gets across that a nurse can bridge the gap between the cold calculations of medical science and the emotional needs of the patient.


So, your message is that scientific medicine is inherently dehumanizing? The nurse's compassion isn't "stacking the deck" to improve the outcome, but rather, a way to avoid completely forgetting that the patient is a human being at all? Interesting try, but seems to me your change makes it a lot worse. "Come join us, you can be the one who occasionally reminds us patients are human because as practitioners of scientific medicine we tend to forget that most of the time."

That's what I mean when I say, crafting that kind of ad is not easy.

Respectfully,
Myriad

Monketey Ghost
10th June 2011, 07:13 AM
Prior to this post, I did not understand what your post meant. Then when I said as much you gave more cryptic responses. Maybe you think your point was obvious. But when someone says they don't understand, it's been my experience they don't understand. Cryptic replies are not helpful.


You also don't get the issue. It is not about the nurse putting the charm in the guy's hand. It is not about the nurse as a compassionate professional. It's not about an ad that says nurses are compassionate.

The issue is about an ad implying nurses buy into superstitious nonsense in addition to science based medicine. The issue is a nurse saying a charm stacks the deck.


They do. Massively. And lots don't understand the science behind what they do. Get over it. Nurses are the twitchiest, most immune to criticism group of people I've ever worked with, and I was raised by an RN who was a great example of a compassionate, caring nurse, so I went into working at the hospital expecting to love them... just recently, a nurse left some pamphlets from Kevin Trudeau in the breakroom on the ortho floor.

It's just a fact that nurses are a superstitious lot, and insisting they're not isn't gonna help much.

fls
10th June 2011, 07:35 AM
If "stacking the deck" by using a lucky charm is meant to represent compassion, then it once again supports the idea that it is uncaring to withhold tacit approval for false beliefs.

So not everyone sees this. That doesn't really help Skeptic Ginger and other nurses. Regardless of whether everyone follows this logic, some people do. It is yet another example of how we apologize for false beliefs with the excuse that they are comforting. I'm not sure that this reflects badly on nurses specifically, or just people in general. It could be taken as "I'm a nurse so I use science, but I'm also human so I will expect comfort from false beliefs." If it reflects badly on nurses, it may be only by saying that despite their training, nurses fall victim to their biases like anyone else. Except, of course, most people don't see themselves as victims. :)

It doesn't surprise me that this doesn't annoy others who aren't health professionals and aren't used to dealing with this. Admittedly, some of this nurses bring on themselves. But it takes a lot of vigilance for those who consider themselves professionals to be seen as such. On that note, the character of Rory on this latest season of Dr. Who is a positive portrayal as a nurse, I think.

Anyway, I was more annoyed by the idea that comfort comes from false beliefs, not from evidence-based beliefs, than annoyed that this was being attributed to nurses specifically. But I'm not going to have quite the same perspective as Skeptic Ginger and I wouldn't chastize her for worrying about how it reflects on nurses.

Linda

Myriad
10th June 2011, 08:08 AM
If "stacking the deck" by using a lucky charm is meant to represent compassion, then it once again supports the idea that it is uncaring to withhold tacit approval for false beliefs.


Is it okay if a patient already terrified by some medical calamity that's befallen them, is further stressed -- and by "further stressed" I don't mean a little concerned, I mean totally convinced they are now fated to die -- by being lodged in Room 13? Their belief that the room number could make a difference or foretell their death is of course false. Does that mean there would be no failure of compassion in refusing to cater to their false belief by numbering the rooms differently, or at least moving the terrified patient to a different room on request?

Yes, it absolutely is uncaring, extremely and obviously so, to withhold tacit approval for such false beliefs under such circumstances.

The clover in the ad is a bit less clear, because the patient was not actually asking for it. But he was carrying it in the first place, so rudimentary knowledge of human nature is sufficient to surmise that he would be very likely to appreciate the gesture of putting it into his hand and extremely unlikely to object to it.

If you came upon a critically injured accident victim on a deserted road, and while waiting for the ambulance (let's say, after you'd rendered all possible first aid) he asked you to pray for him, would you refuse?

Is it really possible to be so dogmatic about not approving (not even tacitly!) of false beliefs that the moral answers to these questions are not obvious?

Respectfully,
Myriad

JohnnyG
10th June 2011, 08:08 AM
It is yet another example of how we apologize for false beliefs with the excuse that they are comforting.
I understand where you are coming from, but I don't think a patient lying in intensive care fighting for his life is the best time to start the argument.

fls
10th June 2011, 09:38 AM
Is it okay if a patient already terrified by some medical calamity that's befallen them, is further stressed -- and by "further stressed" I don't mean a little concerned, I mean totally convinced they are now fated to die -- by being lodged in Room 13? Their belief that the room number could make a difference or foretell their death is of course false. Does that mean there would be no failure of compassion in refusing to cater to their false belief by numbering the rooms differently, or at least moving the terrified patient to a different room on request?

Yes, it absolutely is uncaring, extremely and obviously so, to withhold tacit approval for such false beliefs under such circumstances.

I agree. But this example has nothing to do with what I said, nor with what was shown in the commercial.

The clover in the ad is a bit less clear, because the patient was not actually asking for it. But he was carrying it in the first place, so rudimentary knowledge of human nature is sufficient to surmise that he would be very likely to appreciate the gesture of putting it into his hand and extremely unlikely to object to it.

The patient was made irrelevant in the commercial. This was an action the nurse took upon herself to perform.

If you came upon a critically injured accident victim on a deserted road, and while waiting for the ambulance (let's say, after you'd rendered all possible first aid) he asked you to pray for him, would you refuse?

Is it really possible to be so dogmatic about not approving (not even tacitly!) of false beliefs that the moral answers to these questions are not obvious?

Respectfully,
Myriad

Right. For some reason it is crucial to present skepticism as though it is cruel and uncaring while false beliefs are not.

Linda

rwguinn
10th June 2011, 10:08 AM
I agree. But this example has nothing to do with what I said, nor with what was shown in the commercial.



The patient was made irrelevant in the commercial. This was an action the nurse took upon herself to perform.



Right. For some reason it is crucial to present skepticism as though it is cruel and uncaring while false beliefs are not.

LindaWow.
So much bitterness toward things that are of no consequence...

fls
10th June 2011, 10:26 AM
I understand where you are coming from, but I don't think a patient lying in intensive care fighting for his life is the best time to start the argument.

Right. But that isn't what was happening in the commercial, nor did anyone suggest we do this.

Linda

fls
10th June 2011, 10:27 AM
Wow.
So much bitterness toward things that are of no consequence...

Huh?

Linda

Skeptic Ginger
10th June 2011, 12:27 PM
Again, since you ignored it before. Having a different opinion is not the equivalent of ignoring....
It isn't as if the nurse is shown going to the nurses station and picking up a four leaf charm out of a bin on the counter and then sticking it in the patients hand.

It is clearly shown that the keys fall out of the man's pans when they are moving him.

It's also clearly shown that she's giving it to him after he's been attended to. While you, OTOH, are ignoring my point or you wouldn't have constructed this straw man. The issue is not about showing the compassion of nurses or even suggesting compassion helps healing. As for implying the nurse believes in superstition, that comes from the commentary, not just the visual. Lucky charms stack the deck. That implication is the issue I have with the ad.


I think I could see it your way if during surgery she brought it in etc. It seems the gist of the ad is that nurses are the ones who are there after all the technical things are done and she's going to be there for you in ways that go beyond just the technical part of doing the job.

I've had three kids. And I don't remember the name of my doctors that delivered the babies. But I DO remember the name of the nurses that helped me deliver each of my kids and helped me afterward.

My take on the ad is more about supporting the patient and being compassionate.And others also get the same message from the ad as you. But some, myself included, hear the message, nurses believe superstitious charms stack the deck.


I think the juxtapostion of science and "luck" are what is bothering you. If they hadn't used "science" I don't think it would have have come across the same way.I would have still objected to saying charms stack the deck. I'm glad they buffered it with the science and medicine comment. That was a good thing, not a bad thing.

Skeptic Ginger
10th June 2011, 12:31 PM
As has been said several times, there is another equally appropriate way to interpret this. You can say:

"...the science-based medicine gives him certain odds, but the lucky charm somehow cheats those odds"

or

"...the science-based medicine gives him certain odds, but the nurse's compassion help him feel more secure in a frightening environment and that is helpful and a key benefit nurses provide."


You can choose to focus on the object itself (the lucky charm) or you can focus on the nurse's action (showing compassion for a patient).
So "cheating" refers to compassion? Did you notice that the argument, stacking the deck refers to cheating not good luck charms, is not being equally applied here? Does cheating refer to compassion by a caregiver?

rwguinn
10th June 2011, 12:34 PM
"If it helps you to wear your hat backwards in a poker game, then it helps"
the statement makes no mention of luck, or anything abnormal. What it does speak to is peace of mind and confidence.
In the case of a patient dropping a "lucky charm", giving it back to him/her is "stacking the deck" insofar as it adds to the peace of mind of the patient.
There is a mental aspect to injury and illness that must be cared for in addition to the physical. That is what the commercial points out. And that is ALL it means, to most reasonable people.

CaveDave
10th June 2011, 12:47 PM
Again, since you ignored it before. It isn't as if the nurse is shown going to the nurses station and picking up a four leaf charm out of a bin on the counter and then sticking it in the patients hand.

It is clearly shown that the keys fall out of the man's pans when they are moving him.

It's also clearly shown that she's giving it to him after he's been attended to.

I think I could see it your way if during surgery she brought it in etc. It seems the gist of the ad is that nurses are the ones who are there after all the technical things are done and she's going to be there for you in ways that go beyond just the technical part of doing the job.

I've had three kids. And I don't remember the name of my doctors that delivered the babies. But I DO remember the name of the nurses that helped me deliver each of my kids and helped me afterward.

My take on the ad is more about supporting the patient and being compassionate.


I think the juxtapostion of science and "luck" are what is bothering you. If they hadn't used "science" I don't think it would have have come across the same way.

As has been said several times, there is another equally appropriate way to interpret this. You can say:

"...the science-based medicine gives him certain odds, but the lucky charm somehow cheats those odds"

or

"...the science-based medicine gives him certain odds, but the nurse's compassion help him feel more secure in a frightening environment and that is helpful and a key benefit nurses provide."


You can choose to focus on the object itself (the lucky charm) or you can focus on the nurse's action (showing compassion for a patient).

Exactly. And to me if the nurse had brought in the lucky charm herself then you could see it the first way. But the ad goes to the trouble of being sure you know it's HIS charm.

The fact that it is attached to his keys.

So, your message is that scientific medicine is inherently dehumanizing? The nurse's compassion isn't "stacking the deck" to improve the outcome, but rather, a way to avoid completely forgetting that the patient is a human being at all? Interesting try, but seems to me your change makes it a lot worse. "Come join us, you can be the one who occasionally reminds us patients are human because as practitioners of scientific medicine we tend to forget that most of the time."

That's what I mean when I say, crafting that kind of ad is not easy.

Respectfully,
Myriad

Good points above, I think.

They do. Massively. And lots don't understand the science behind what they do. Get over it. Nurses are the twitchiest, most immune to criticism group of people I've ever worked with, and I was raised by an RN who was a great example of a compassionate, caring nurse, so I went into working at the hospital expecting to love them... just recently, a nurse left some pamphlets from Kevin Trudeau in the breakroom on the ortho floor.

It's just a fact that nurses are a superstitious lot, and insisting they're not isn't gonna help much.

I haven't seen it to THAT extreme, but I worked in a Catholic Hospital and I did see my share of superstition...

If "stacking the deck" by using a lucky charm is meant to represent compassion, then it once again supports the idea that it is uncaring to withhold tacit approval for false beliefs.

So not everyone sees this. That doesn't really help Skeptic Ginger and other nurses. Regardless of whether everyone follows this logic, some people do. It is yet another example of how we apologize for false beliefs with the excuse that they are comforting. I'm not sure that this reflects badly on nurses specifically, or just people in general. It could be taken as "I'm a nurse so I use science, but I'm also human so I will expect comfort from false beliefs." If it reflects badly on nurses, it may be only by saying that despite their training, nurses fall victim to their biases like anyone else. Except, of course, most people don't see themselves as victims. :)

It doesn't surprise me that this doesn't annoy others who aren't health professionals and aren't used to dealing with this. Admittedly, some of this nurses bring on themselves. But it takes a lot of vigilance for those who consider themselves professionals to be seen as such. On that note, the character of Rory on this latest season of Dr. Who is a positive portrayal as a nurse, I think.

Anyway, I was more annoyed by the idea that comfort comes from false beliefs, not from evidence-based beliefs, than annoyed that this was being attributed to nurses specifically. But I'm not going to have quite the same perspective as Skeptic Ginger and I wouldn't chastize her for worrying about how it reflects on nurses.

Linda

You make good points,too, Linda.

Perhaps I need to moderate my position...:)

Is it okay if a patient already terrified by some medical calamity that's befallen them, is further stressed -- and by "further stressed" I don't mean a little concerned, I mean totally convinced they are now fated to die -- by being lodged in Room 13? Their belief that the room number could make a difference or foretell their death is of course false. Does that mean there would be no failure of compassion in refusing to cater to their false belief by numbering the rooms differently, or at least moving the terrified patient to a different room on request?

Yes, it absolutely is uncaring, extremely and obviously so, to withhold tacit approval for such false beliefs under such circumstances.

The clover in the ad is a bit less clear, because the patient was not actually asking for it. But he was carrying it in the first place, so rudimentary knowledge of human nature is sufficient to surmise that he would be very likely to appreciate the gesture of putting it into his hand and extremely unlikely to object to it.

If you came upon a critically injured accident victim on a deserted road, and while waiting for the ambulance (let's say, after you'd rendered all possible first aid) he asked you to pray for him, would you refuse?

Is it really possible to be so dogmatic about not approving (not even tacitly!) of false beliefs that the moral answers to these questions are not obvious?

Respectfully,
Myriad

I would NOT refuse; I would swallow hard and do it for their comfort, but that's just me...

Years ago a good friend (of the "Jesus Freak" flavor of hippies) gave me a cross on a chain: I wore it because it made him feel good, even though I had made it clear I had no belief in "Sky Daddy". Refusing it would have served no purpose other than to hurt him.

I understand where you are coming from, but I don't think a patient lying in intensive care fighting for his life is the best time to start the argument.

Cheers,

Dave

Sherman Bay
10th June 2011, 12:58 PM
So that 4-leaf clover thingy is a lucky charm? It obviously didn't work, bigtime. Get rid of that evil talisman!

madurobob
10th June 2011, 12:59 PM
So "cheating" refers to compassion? Did you notice that the argument, stacking the deck refers to cheating not good luck charms, is not being equally applied here? Does cheating refer to compassion by a caregiver?

"Cheating the odds" was not my choice of terms, but those of the poster I responded to. In common usage "stacking the deck" does not have to mean "cheating", but rather anything that can tilt the odds in one's favor. I "stack the deck" in my dissertation by knowing the professional passions of my committee members and playing to those passions where possible in my dissertation and its defense. That's not cheating; that's using emotional intelligence.

But "cheating" is nothing more than a red herring here. The real issue is whether the ad is promoting woo or showing that compassion is an important part of nursing and a trait highly valued by patients (contrast this with many people's views of doctors - cold, clinical, uncaring). The ad showed us a scenario where a harried ER nurse took the time to show compassion for her patient. Yes, that is intended to play to our emotions and not our intellect, and yes, the choice of a good luck charm as a vehicle for that compassion may not have been the best, but the message the ad sends is not that nurses are woo-prone, but rather than nurses care. For the most part I think the ad works.

Dr. Keith
10th June 2011, 01:41 PM
I would have seen the ad as saying supporting the patient's beliefs mattered if the words echoed that. "Stacking the deck" says cross your fingers, keep a rabbits foot, pray, yadda yadda. It doesn't say what the other commercials in the series say, "nurses care" or a message to that effect. For example, there's another commercial in the same series about a hospice nurse and a dying woman who believes one opens the window to let a dying soul out. The nurse says, "Not tonight Berta" Clearly the nurse is responding to the patient's beliefs, not agreeing with them in that commercial.

Pp-AMyiYbNU

I'm not really sure how that is responsive to my post. I was just laying out my thoughts on why some scientifically proficient people I know who are in the medical field are also very prone to magical thinking. I believe it helps them deal with the emotional trauma. Take it or leave it, it was prefaced with the word anecdote.

But, to your larger complaint: I've seen several of these videos now and taken as a whole I think they show the profession in a very positive light. Given this "body of work" I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt on this one.

Either that, or I would have to assume that J&J is portraying nurses as ageist because one made a joke about the younger buddy being the patient's father or sexist because the one assumed that girls require singing to get through a scary procedure.

Argumentum ad absurdum? Yep. Once you gloss over the fact that the nurse "stacks the deck" by merely returning the patient's key chain, you've moved the argument to that arena. The ad shows an act of compassion just like all of the other ads in this series not a magical incantation interrupting the care of the patient. To take this one ad to task so severely seems a bit out of context to me.

Skeptic Ginger
10th June 2011, 01:42 PM
....
The patient was made irrelevant in the commercial. This was an action the nurse took upon herself to perform.
....

Right. For some reason it is crucial to present skepticism as though it is cruel and uncaring while false beliefs are not.

LindaThe patient's belief and the nurse supporting the patient are not the problem. The dilemma of supporting a patient's false beliefs vs addressing them is a difficult but separate issue. Though I must say I find that second comment intriguing.

I am particularly aware of media messages, especially media messages that portray the image of nursing. You've read some of my posts on the science of nursing. The media image of nursing has been damaging to our profession for a long time. Like the media portrayals of blacks and Native Americans, it's well known how problematic the media image of a group can be.

Image overhaul - Media still are off-target portraying nurses (http://www.nurseweek.com/news/features/00-10/tv.asp)The 1997 Woodhull Study on Nursing and the Media, conducted by Sigma Theta Tau International, found that nurses were severely under-represented in print media, including in comprehensive coverage of health care. Of 1,153 health care stories in 16 major newspapers, only 11 carried references to nurses, the study found.

Television didnít do much better with its first episode of "Hopkins 24/7," either. Purported to be a reality-based show about "people at the core of medical care," the episode had more footage of physicians, patients and organs than nurses.
Nursingís Image in the Media: (https://evolve.elsevier.com/cs/Satellite/Article/Nursings+Image+in+the+Media+Just+In+Jest?cid=70000 0000611524&Audience=Faculty)For many of my 30 years as a nurse I wasnít concerned about inaccurate media images of nursing as I believed these images were harmless, after all, many were just in jest. But as a nurse like you who is committed to new learning everyday, I realize these inaccurate portrayals negate our educational advances in the eye of the public.
Here's one the guys will appreciate. ;) (http://www.nursingadvocacy.org/faq/naughty_nurse.html)Naughty nurse and other stereotypical images add to the chronic underfunding of nursing research, education and clinical practice. This is because health care decision makers--many of whom are sadly uninformed about what nursing really is--are less likely to devote scarce resources to a profession that has become so degraded in the public consciousness. ...


Then there are the images that support false beliefs over science. This ad has both, a message that nurses accept a superstitious charm "stacks the deck", and that the superstition has the power to influence beyond science. While I understand the different perception people here have when they view the ad, I am surprised the message that superstition has the power to influence beyond science is not more disturbing to people.


-

Skeptic Ginger
10th June 2011, 01:43 PM
Wow.
So much bitterness toward things that are of no consequence...Wow, so much lack of awareness of the impact of media portrayal of a group.

Skeptic Ginger
10th June 2011, 01:45 PM
"If it helps you to wear your hat backwards in a poker game, then it helps"
the statement makes no mention of luck, or anything abnormal. What it does speak to is peace of mind and confidence.
In the case of a patient dropping a "lucky charm", giving it back to him/her is "stacking the deck" insofar as it adds to the peace of mind of the patient.
There is a mental aspect to injury and illness that must be cared for in addition to the physical. That is what the commercial points out. And that is ALL it means, to most reasonable people.So your claim is the charm actually does "stack the deck" beyond science based medicine?

Skeptic Ginger
10th June 2011, 01:46 PM
So that 4-leaf clover thingy is a lucky charm? It obviously didn't work, bigtime. Get rid of that evil talisman!:D

fls
10th June 2011, 01:49 PM
Yeah, when my friend had breast cancer and was going through chemo, some people made a point of telling her they were praying for her. I brought over suppers for her family instead, so I missed my chance to show compassion.

Linda

Skeptic Ginger
10th June 2011, 01:51 PM
...
But "cheating" is nothing more than a red herring here. I totally agree. I was trying to point that out. You've labeled it correctly.

...The real issue is whether the ad is promoting woo or showing that compassion is an important part of nursing and a trait highly valued by patients (contrast this with many people's views of doctors - cold, clinical, uncaring). The ad showed us a scenario where a harried ER nurse took the time to show compassion for her patient. Yes, that is intended to play to our emotions and not our intellect, and yes, the choice of a good luck charm as a vehicle for that compassion may not have been the best, but the message the ad sends is not that nurses are woo-prone, but rather than nurses care. For the most part I think the ad works.One man's ceiling is another man's floor.

As is now being repeated in the thread, I see the message that the charm stacks the deck and the compassion is shown but not what the 'stack the deck' comment refers to. Others see the compassion as the thing that is stacking the deck. I would add that since the patient is apparently unconscious, he would be unaware of the compassionate gesture, leaving the superstitious gesture as the means of stacking the deck.

Skeptic Ginger
10th June 2011, 01:57 PM
I'm not really sure how that is responsive to my post. I was just laying out my thoughts on why some scientifically proficient people I know who are in the medical field are also very prone to magical thinking. I believe it helps them deal with the emotional trauma. Take it or leave it, it was prefaced with the word anecdote.I don't deny it, I was objecting to the stereotype magical thinking predominates in nursing compared to say, matched controls. People are superstitious. I wouldn't expect nurses to be more or less so and I was objecting to the unsupported claim they were more so than other similar groups of people.

But, to your larger complaint: I've seen several of these videos now and taken as a whole I think they show the profession in a very positive light. Given this "body of work" I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt on this one.

Either that, or I would have to assume that J&J is portraying nurses as ageist because one made a joke about the younger buddy being the patient's father or sexist because the one assumed that girls require singing to get through a scary procedure.

Argumentum ad absurdum? Yep. Once you gloss over the fact that the nurse "stacks the deck" by merely returning the patient's key chain, you've moved the argument to that arena. The ad shows an act of compassion just like all of the other ads in this series not a magical incantation interrupting the care of the patient. To take this one ad to task so severely seems a bit out of context to me.I conclude the message which concerns me is one J&J was unaware they were sending. That is common with communication. People are often unaware of unintended messages in the things they say. For example, it took a long time to get nurses to quit saying, "I'm just a nurse". They didn't recognize the message "just a" communicated.

Dr. Keith
10th June 2011, 02:05 PM
I conclude the message which concerns me is one J&J was unaware they were sending. That is common with communication. People are often unaware of unintended messages in the things they say.

That seems fair. If I were on a board reviewing these spots I would not have seen the message the way you did and I would have likely approved of the message with an understanding similar to some others who have posted here. You would have not approved the message because you would have seen it very differently. And yet, J&J may have intended a third meaning altogether.

But I do think you can get an inkling of what they meant in this spot by comparing it to the campaign as a whole. That is all.

For example, it took a long time to get nurses to quit saying, "I'm just a nurse". They didn't recognize the message "just a" communicated.

Yeah, that would really get my goat.*



*Not intended to be an endorsement of what others here may or may not do when getting a goat for either scientific or entertainment purposes. Please call your doctor if the "goat" lasts more than four hours.

fls
10th June 2011, 02:06 PM
The patient's belief and the nurse supporting the patient are not the problem. The dilemma of supporting a patient's false beliefs vs addressing them is a difficult but separate issue. Though I must say I find that second comment intriguing.

It does look like I might be saying that, but I didn't mean to. I didn't get the impression that the nurse was meant to be guessing at the patient's beliefs and giving them tacit support. She seemed to be acting on her own beliefs when a talisman came to hand (the finding of his keychain). I'm just more sensitive to the idea that science doesn't include care and compassion and that the removal of false hope is cruel, and you're more sensitive to the idea that the nurse lets superstition creep into her care. Plenty of fodder for annoyance (minor or otherwise). :)

Have you contacted any advocacy groups for nurses about this?

I am particularly aware of media messages, especially media messages that portray the image of nursing. You've read some of my posts on the science of nursing. The media image of nursing has been damaging to our profession for a long time. Like the media portrayals of blacks and Native Americans, it's well known how problematic the media image of a group can be.

Image overhaul - Media still are off-target portraying nurses (http://www.nurseweek.com/news/features/00-10/tv.asp)
Nursingís Image in the Media: (https://evolve.elsevier.com/cs/Satellite/Article/Nursings+Image+in+the+Media+Just+In+Jest?cid=70000 0000611524&Audience=Faculty)
Here's one the guys will appreciate. ;) (http://www.nursingadvocacy.org/faq/naughty_nurse.html)


Then there are the images that support false beliefs over science. This ad has both, a message that nurses accept a superstitious charm "stacks the deck", and that the superstition has the power to influence beyond science. While I understand the different perception people here have when they view the ad, I am surprised the message that superstition has the power to influence beyond science is not more disturbing to people.

-

Well, you have to remember that responses here will represent a biased sample. Specifically, you may just be seeing people who will take an opportunity to disagree with you. Don't generalize from this sample. :)

Linda

AmandaM
10th June 2011, 02:08 PM
Lucky charms stack the deck. That implication is the issue I have with the ad.


I am not a medical professional. When I saw the ad, long before I saw this thread, the bolded part above is EXACTLY what I thought they were trying to get across. I even mentioned to my husband that pretty soon they'll issue rabbits' feet when you're admitted.

Both of us thought the ad reflected negatively on the medical profession in general.

NoZed Avenger
10th June 2011, 02:30 PM
It's just a fact that nurses are a superstitious lot, and insisting they're not isn't gonna help much.


This would have made "The Phantom" EVEN BETTER.

"Nurses are a cowardly, superstitious lot."

In 1525, pirates nurses capture and destroy a ship off the coast of Africa. That ship belongs to Christopher Standish. The nurses kill Standish, and when his son Kit later finds the skull of his father's murderer, he swears an oath upon it that he and his descendants will devote their lives to "the destruction of Candy-stripers, LVNs, cruelty and bedpans." Kit Standish aka "Walker" becomes The Phantom!

madurobob
10th June 2011, 03:08 PM
One man's ceiling is another man's floor.
I s'pose that makes sense to you city folk with your fancy skyscrapers ;)

As is now being repeated in the thread, I see the message that the charm stacks the deck and the compassion is shown but not what the 'stack the deck' comment refers to. Others see the compassion as the thing that is stacking the deck. I would add that since the patient is apparently unconscious, he would be unaware of the compassionate gesture, leaving the superstitious gesture as the means of stacking the deck.
Yup. I think I mentioned early in this thread that I could understand your position. I don't share it, but I can understand it. The ad is subtle enough in my eyes that I find it hard to get riled up about.

Skeptic Ginger
10th June 2011, 03:09 PM
It does look like I might be saying that, but I didn't mean to. I didn't get the impression that the nurse was meant to be guessing at the patient's beliefs and giving them tacit support. She seemed to be acting on her own beliefs when a talisman came to hand (the finding of his keychain). I'm just more sensitive to the idea that science doesn't include care and compassion and that the removal of false hope is cruel, and you're more sensitive to the idea that the nurse lets superstition creep into her care. Plenty of fodder for annoyance (minor or otherwise). :) Fascinating (if you'll forgive the over generalization): You are in a profession where care and compassion are less within the image and I'm in one where science is less within the image. I totally get where you are coming from. I've learned from your perception of the compassion aspect in medicine. I'm curious if you've learned from my perception of the science aspect in nursing.


Have you contacted any advocacy groups for nurses about this?Oh, I've been active off and on over my career in promoting the image of nursing. I believe I even played an historical role when along with a small group of nurses we established the right of nurses to act as independent contractors in this state. Believe it or not this was not a given for nurses, (not nurse practitioners who have been autonomous in this state since first licensed). If you mow lawns you can be your own boss. But as professional nurses, we literally had to go to court to establish the fact our profession was collegial and not subservient to medicine. But I digress....

shalomsteph
10th June 2011, 03:15 PM
I didn't take it to mean that the nurse believes in superstition, but when she noticed the four leaf clover she realized that the patient may be a believer. She puts it in his hand for his reassurance, not because she is superstitious. The ad is basically saying that compassion is an important part of nursing in addition to science.

I think this ad is a trivial thing to go on a rampage about. If Johnson & Johnson were marketing a four leaf clover for the enhanced treatment of ER patients, yes...I'll stand with you. But this? Meh.

That's exactly what I was going to say. Compassion is huge in nursing...if it were a photo of his wife or kids, it would be saying the same thing, and I imagine if a photo of his wife or kids (or dog, for that matter) was the first thing he saw when he came out of the coma? Hurray for the nurse.

Skeptic Ginger
10th June 2011, 05:11 PM
I s'pose that makes sense to you city folk with your fancy skyscrapers ;)....Or Paul Simon fans. :)

Emet
10th June 2011, 06:12 PM
I even mentioned to my husband that pretty soon they'll issue rabbits' feet when you're admitted.


Now that's just plain cruel (http://28.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_kxca2vDRli1qa9armo1_500.jpg). :jaw-dropp
;)

Foolmewunz
10th June 2011, 07:01 PM
I s'pose that makes sense to you city folk with your fancy skyscrapers ;)

Country bumpkin! ;)


Yup. I think I mentioned early in this thread that I could understand your position. I don't share it, but I can understand it. The ad is subtle enough in my eyes that I find it hard to get riled up about.

I'm not riled up about it, personally. But I do see the point SG's making and I pretty much agree with it. A photo (any photo - it's bound to be a loved one, duh) would've been just as symbolic. Or something Dickensian like half-a-locket, maybe. But a four leaf clover or rabbit's foot is superstition. As you mentioned upthread, what if it was a Star of David or Crucifix? I think those with an atheist bent in this thread would not be disagreeing with SG. (Well, except for those - you know who you are guys - who didn't leave their baggage at the check room on the way in).

I think the subtlety of the ad is the cause of the confusion. Knowing a few folks in advertising, I'd say that was intentional. As I said above (pages ago), I think that makes it a successful commercial. (I could think of worse things for the image of the nursing profession than having a thread like this catch the public eye. It's fairly informative if you glide past the bitchiness of some of the peanut gallery.

I also agree with you on another element. Even the term "stacking the deck" can have multiple interpretations: If I catch you stacking the deck when we're playing five card draw, you're going to draw back a bloody stump. (Well, if you've made me some of those pizzas, maybe just a slap on the wrist.) If Randi stacks the deck to make a particular trick work, I'm going to smile as I enjoy the trick. If you stack the deck by the ordering of the information in a Powerpoint presentation, I may not care a wink.

Beth
10th June 2011, 07:23 PM
Yup. I think I mentioned early in this thread that I could understand your position. I don't share it, but I can understand it. The ad is subtle enough in my eyes that I find it hard to get riled up about.

This is basically where I'm at.


I am particularly aware of media messages, especially media messages that portray the image of nursing. You've read some of my posts on the science of nursing. The media image of nursing has been damaging to our profession for a long time. Like the media portrayals of blacks and Native Americans, it's well known how problematic the media image of a group can be.
-

You make some good points. I wouldn't have given it a second thought if I had seen it before reading this thread, but I think you do have a valid concern here.


As is now being repeated in the thread, I see the message that the charm stacks the deck and the compassion is shown but not what the 'stack the deck' comment refers to. Others see the compassion as the thing that is stacking the deck. I would add that since the patient is apparently unconscious, he would be unaware of the compassionate gesture, leaving the superstitious gesture as the means of stacking the deck.

He's unconscious, but I thought he seemed to grip the charm a bit. I took it as a subtle indication that he was heartened by having it. And I think Myriad has a solid point regarding the difficulty of crafting a message that meets all the other constraints.

I don't deny it, I was objecting to the stereotype magical thinking predominates in nursing compared to say, matched controls. People are superstitious. I wouldn't expect nurses to be more or less so and I was objecting to the unsupported claim they were more so than other similar groups of people.

I'll support this point. I've not noticed nurses being any more or less superstitious than any other profession nor have I seen or read any other evidence of it.

I conclude the message which concerns me is one J&J was unaware they were sending. That is common with communication. People are often unaware of unintended messages in the things they say. For example, it took a long time to get nurses to quit saying, "I'm just a nurse". They didn't recognize the message "just a" communicated.

Yes. There is evidence that such subtle nomenclature can shape our thinking and perception more than we are typically conscious of.

It's your profession. If you don't like they way they are portraying it in these ads, it makes sense to let them know. Maybe next time, somebody on whatever board it is that approves such ads will think about the way you perceived this one.

Skeptic Ginger
10th June 2011, 07:43 PM
Thank you Beth for the comments and for reminding me why I like you. :)

CaveDave
10th June 2011, 10:00 PM
"Cheating the odds" was not my choice of terms, but those of the poster I responded to. In common usage "stacking the deck" does not have to mean "cheating", but rather anything that can tilt the odds in one's favor. I "stack the deck" in my dissertation by knowing the professional passions of my committee members and playing to those passions where possible in my dissertation and its defense. That's not cheating; that's using emotional intelligence.

But "cheating" is nothing more than a red herring here. The real issue is whether the ad is promoting woo or showing that compassion is an important part of nursing and a trait highly valued by patients (contrast this with many people's views of doctors - cold, clinical, uncaring). The ad showed us a scenario where a harried ER nurse took the time to show compassion for her patient. Yes, that is intended to play to our emotions and not our intellect, and yes, the choice of a good luck charm as a vehicle for that compassion may not have been the best, but the message the ad sends is not that nurses are woo-prone, but rather than nurses care. For the most part I think the ad works.

I'm not really sure how that is responsive to my post. I was just laying out my thoughts on why some scientifically proficient people I know who are in the medical field are also very prone to magical thinking. I believe it helps them deal with the emotional trauma. Take it or leave it, it was prefaced with the word anecdote.

But, to your larger complaint: I've seen several of these videos now and taken as a whole I think they show the profession in a very positive light. Given this "body of work" I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt on this one.

Either that, or I would have to assume that J&J is portraying nurses as ageist because one made a joke about the younger buddy being the patient's father or sexist because the one assumed that girls require singing to get through a scary procedure.

Argumentum ad absurdum? Yep. Once you gloss over the fact that the nurse "stacks the deck" by merely returning the patient's key chain, you've moved the argument to that arena. The ad shows an act of compassion just like all of the other ads in this series not a magical incantation interrupting the care of the patient. To take this one ad to task so severely seems a bit out of context to me.

Dave

fls
11th June 2011, 04:53 AM
Fascinating (if you'll forgive the over generalization): You are in a profession where care and compassion are less within the image and I'm in one where science is less within the image.

Ah, it makes sense when you put it that way.

I totally get where you are coming from. I've learned from your perception of the compassion aspect in medicine. I'm curious if you've learned from my perception of the science aspect in nursing.

Well, yes and no. A lot of my exposure to nurses was in Canada where the minimum requirement was a bachelors degree (rather than an associate degree), almost all of my practice was in academic/university/teaching settings (I'm thinking that the differences between nurses in teaching centers and those in the community may be similar to the differences between physicians in those settings), there were a fair number of nurses who were also in my graduate public health program, and I worked with nurses on research projects. So I was already inclined to see the science aspect in nursing.

Linda

truethat
11th June 2011, 05:56 PM
Country bumpkin! ;)



I'm not riled up about it, personally. But I do see the point SG's making and I pretty much agree with it. A photo (any photo - it's bound to be a loved one, duh) would've been just as symbolic. Or something Dickensian like half-a-locket, maybe. But a four leaf clover or rabbit's foot is superstition. As you mentioned upthread, what if it was a Star of David or Crucifix? I think those with an atheist bent in this thread would not be disagreeing with SG. (Well, except for those - you know who you are guys - who didn't leave their baggage at the check room on the way in).

I think the subtlety of the ad is the cause of the confusion. Knowing a few folks in advertising, I'd say that was intentional. As I said above (pages ago), I think that makes it a successful commercial. (I could think of worse things for the image of the nursing profession than having a thread like this catch the public eye. It's fairly informative if you glide past the bitchiness of some of the peanut gallery.

I also agree with you on another element. Even the term "stacking the deck" can have multiple interpretations: If I catch you stacking the deck when we're playing five card draw, you're going to draw back a bloody stump. (Well, if you've made me some of those pizzas, maybe just a slap on the wrist.) If Randi stacks the deck to make a particular trick work, I'm going to smile as I enjoy the trick. If you stack the deck by the ordering of the information in a Powerpoint presentation, I may not care a wink.



I am an atheist and I think Skeptic sounds hysterical over a minor issue.

Prometheus
11th June 2011, 06:39 PM
I'm late and haven't read the whole thread yet, so apologies if someone else has said so, but my first impression of the ad was that the nurse was displaying as much sympathy as compassion by humoring the patient's belief in charms despite her more rational point of view. Only on second thought did I note that probably SG's interpretation was more likely. OTOH I think a reasonable case could still be made that this ad is reaching out to a general population that finds comfort in such foolishness and implying, "Whatever your beliefs, come find out what nursing is really all about."

As an amusing side-note, I once found a four-leaf clover while walking to catch a train home from college. I stopped to pick it, then went in to a nearby store to buy some plastic wrap and a card to preserve it. I missed my train by about 30 seconds and had to wait 6 hours for the next one. :o

Prometheus
11th June 2011, 11:01 PM
I think the ad developers made a very careful choice of what object to use, and nine out of ten ad agencies would make the same choice given the same basic outline of the ad, e.g. that the patient is an adult male. They chose the four leaf clover because it's simple and iconic, like just about everything in video ads.

Imagine trying to compose the ad with a picture of his wife instead of the four leaf clover. Can we see what the picture shows on video? We need a zoom-in, extra time and extra motion. How do we even know it's his wife? What was the picture doing there? Why put it in his hand, it's non-tactile paper and wouldn't it just get crushed? All these distractions would be introduced, or extra time spent setting the scene up to avoid them, when every second is at a premium.

The phrasing "stacking the deck" isn't perfect but what other wording would be? Again, there's about one second to get the idea across, and I always hesitate to criticize wording unless I can think of better wording under the same constraints. In this case I can't so far. (I'll keep thinking about it though. "...stacking every +1 modifier I can" might work, if everyone were D&D players, but even that's more than a second longer.)

The ad director's task was something like, show a nurse performing a not medically necessary but thoughtful and compassionate act that's visually clear within a few seconds after also showing her performing emergency medical procedures, with her voice-over describing a philosophy of care that calls attention to both aspects in turn. Not easy.

Respectfully,
Myriad

Okay, I've finished reading the thread now, and I have to say that, while SG is making an important point, and it is worth airing out how subtle messages can have adverse side effects, Myriad's post above is the one I most agree with.

I think that this is an extremely well-crafted and highly effective ad. I also think that the particular message SG is worried about, while certainly present, is probably not the one that most members of the general public will remember about this ad later on. Rather, the stickiest (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Made_to_Stick)* take-away from this ad is exactly the one I believe J&J intends to communicate: That nurses see the patient through every part of the healing process from beginning to end, they can be relied on to care about the whole patient, and--most central to J&J's campaign--they're just like 'you' (where 'you' is a typical young member of the general public trying to decide on a career). The very aspects that bother SG--the focus on the charm conected with the language 'stacking the deck'--are integral to making this core message stick, but the offending message they also convey is not so strong nor so memorable.

Were I an executive at J&J in charge of this ad campaign, I would thank SG for voicing her concerns, I would absolutely keep them in mind in making decisions about future ads, but I wouild nevertheless continue to run this ad.


*BTW The book I linked to here, which I've recently finished reading, is an excellent discussion on communicating messages powerfully--well worth a read for anyone interested in the topic.

Pup
12th June 2011, 05:27 AM
and--most central to J&J's campaign--they're just like 'you' (where 'you' is a typical young member of the general public trying to decide on a career).

Absolutely. Because the typical person believes or wants to believe that good luck charms work, so it's something they understand on an emotional level. No argument with you there.

Monketey Ghost
13th June 2011, 05:08 AM
I'm late and haven't read the whole thread yet, so apologies if someone else has said so, but my first impression of the ad was that the nurse was displaying as much sympathy as compassion by humoring the patient's belief in charms despite her more rational point of view. Only on second thought did I note that probably SG's interpretation was more likely. OTOH I think a reasonable case could still be made that this ad is reaching out to a general population that finds comfort in such foolishness and implying, "Whatever your beliefs, come find out what nursing is really all about."

As an amusing side-note, I once found a four-leaf clover while walking to catch a train home from college. I stopped to pick it, then went in to a nearby store to buy some plastic wrap and a card to preserve it. I missed my train by about 30 seconds and had to wait 6 hours for the next one. :o

as an addition to your side note, my wife finds four leafed clovers all the time. She has that pattern set in her head: I could look for a half day and not find one; she looks down casually and picks 'em up in seconds. She's found two five-leafers in the last month. It's galling. Put that next to your wasted six hours and feel the burn...

and now back to the nurse bashing. :D

truethat
13th June 2011, 05:31 PM
I'm late and haven't read the whole thread yet, so apologies if someone else has said so, but my first impression of the ad was that the nurse was displaying as much sympathy as compassion by humoring the patient's belief in charms despite her more rational point of view. Only on second thought did I note that probably SG's interpretation was more likely. OTOH I think a reasonable case could still be made that this ad is reaching out to a general population that finds comfort in such foolishness and implying, "Whatever your beliefs, come find out what nursing is really all about."

As an amusing side-note, I once found a four-leaf clover while walking to catch a train home from college. I stopped to pick it, then went in to a nearby store to buy some plastic wrap and a card to preserve it. I missed my train by about 30 seconds and had to wait 6 hours for the next one. :o


I really think that's the point of the ad. To me it's aimed at drawing in people who might not consider themselves "science folks"

The idea that this ad is aimed at promoting the use of good luck charms in nursing is utterly laughable.

Skeptic Ginger
13th June 2011, 05:57 PM
.....

The idea that this ad is aimed at promoting the use of good luck charms in nursing is utterly laughable.Will this straw man never die?

Prometheus
13th June 2011, 07:16 PM
Will this straw man never die?

I didn't mean to suggest you thought the ad was aimed at promoting such an interpretation. I meant that I don't think it even does so by accident. That message is present, but I believe that the ad is constructed such that that message is not what most people will remember about seeing it, and--as evidenced in this thread--many people won't even see it at all.

Skeptic Ginger
13th June 2011, 09:44 PM
I didn't mean to suggest you thought the ad was aimed at promoting such an interpretation. I meant that I don't think it even does so by accident. That message is present, but I believe that the ad is constructed such that that message is not what most people will remember about seeing it, and--as evidenced in this thread--many people won't even see it at all.Your post did not echo that of Truethat.

truethat
14th June 2011, 09:46 AM
Your post did not echo that of Truethat.

Well I'm saying he's saying what I'm saying. You keep saying it's a straw man. Perhaps you want to examine what you think you are saying and what you are interpreting.


Several people in this thread have shared their interpretations of the ad and also acknowledged how by a stretch we can understand what you are saying and how you COULD come up with that interpretation but that it doesn't seem the intention of the ad makers.

Skeptic Ginger
14th June 2011, 10:54 AM
Well I'm saying he's saying what I'm saying. You keep saying it's a straw man. Perhaps you want to examine what you think you are saying and what you are interpreting.


Several people in this thread have shared their interpretations of the ad and also acknowledged how by a stretch we can understand what you are saying and how you COULD come up with that interpretation but that it doesn't seem the intention of the ad makers.
Straw man: distorting someone'e argument then arguing against the distortion instead of the actual argument.

truthat: "The idea that this ad is aimed at promoting the use of good luck charms in nursing is utterly laughable."

The ad is not "aimed at promoting the use of good luck charms in nursing" nor did I ever say it was.

You are being ridiculous. The issue is not that complicated.


There is an implied message in this ad that results from the way a DIFFERENT INTENDED MESSAGE was presented. It is doubtful J&J noticed the UNINTENDED MESSAGE. Certainly it is doubtful they intended the unintended message, such is the nature of messages contained in framing unless the framer is aware of such messages and purposefully manipulates them.

Politicians purposefully manipulate message framing. A tax cut is called tax relief, implying you need to be saved from taxes. Pro-lifers are not pro-life, they are anti-abortion. Pro-choicers are not pro-abortion, they are pro-individual choice. Almost every political answer or slogan includes purposeful framing.

While many messages are purposefully framed to influence the reaction to the message, many additional messages occur with framing which were not intended. Someone who said, "I'm just a nurse" probably never intended to demean nursing. They would have been unaware that the way they framed the statement contained the unintended message.


This ad, whether you hear the unintended message or not, contains one. Even if you are not influenced by the unintended message it nonetheless is contained in the ad. The ad says nurses believe in science, but nurses also believe good luck charms stack the deck. I don't doubt the message J&J INTENDED was, compassion stacks the deck.

It is the unintended message, like saying "just a nurse", that undermines the professional image of nursing.

truethat
15th June 2011, 01:20 PM
The ad "contains one" in your opinion. Others don't see it the way you do. Why is this so difficult for you to accept???????

Skeptic Ginger
15th June 2011, 02:22 PM
The ad "contains one" in your opinion. Others don't see it the way you do. Why is this so difficult for you to accept???????Is there some reason you don't consider it possible to view the ad more than one way? You might want to skim this thread. Some people see the message that concerns me, nursing is evidence based but including superstition is also part of nursing. Some see the message as, nursing includes science and compassion.

truethat
15th June 2011, 02:39 PM
Yup and you keep telling those of us who don't see it your way that we are wrong. That's what I'm not getting. Just because you see it differently and some others agree with you doesn't mean you are correct. It doesn't mean we are correct, it's a perspective and interpretive disagreement.

The only thing we've pointed out is what is the intention of the ad? Seems that the ad is trying to paint nursing in an inclusive light, not push the stereotype that nurses believe in the use of good luck charms.

Skeptic Ginger
15th June 2011, 04:09 PM
Yup and you keep telling those of us who don't see it your way that we are wrong. That's what I'm not getting. Just because you see it differently and some others agree with you doesn't mean you are correct. It doesn't mean we are correct, it's a perspective and interpretive disagreement.

The only thing we've pointed out is what is the intention of the ad? Seems that the ad is trying to paint nursing in an inclusive light, not push the stereotype that nurses believe in the use of good luck charms.Your confirmation bias seems to be at work here that someone is telling you that you are wrong. Why would someone's reaction to an ad be right or wrong? It's an individual reaction, not a statement of fact.


OTOH, you continue with the straw man that I think the problem with the ad is something J&J did intentionally. I don't understand why over and over you ignore my correction of your mis-interpretation of the problem. I'm almost certain the message that concerns me is an unintended message. There is a slim possibility the people responsible for the ad themselves think superstitious charms "stack the deck". But more than likely they chose the 4-leaf clover as something they thought more neutral than a religious charm and indeed it was compassion they were trying to portray.


Is the reason you don't recognize your straw man because you know very little about framing? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Framing_effect_(psychology)) Note, I'm asking, not accusing.A set of experiments on framing performed by psychologists Amos Tversky and Daniel Kahneman (1981) indicated that different phrasing affected participants' responses to a question about a disease prevention strategy. The first problem given to participants offered two alternative solutions for 600 people affected by a hypothetical deadly disease:
option A saves 200 people's lives
option B has a 33% chance of saving all 600 people and a 66% possibility of saving no one
These decisions have the same expected value of 200 lives saved, but option B is risky. 72% of participants chose option A, whereas only 28% of participants chose option B.
The second problem, given to another group of participants, offered the same scenario with the same statistics, but described differently:
if option C is taken, then 400 people die
if option D is taken, then there is a 33% chance that no people will die and a 66% probability that all 600 will die
However, in this group, 78% of participants chose option D (equivalent to option B), whereas only 22% of participants chose option C (equivalent to option A).
The discrepancy in choice between these parallel options is in essence the framing effect; the two groups favored different options because the options were expressed employing different language. In the first problem, a positive frame emphasizes lives gained; in the second, a negative frame emphasizes lives lost. The alterations in the language underlie the differences in the preferences.

The above example involves the effect of how a message is framed on a decision. But there is not always a decision involved. Certain messages are imparted by the way something is framed and often the message is unintended. Anyone who pays attention to communication should be able to recognize both intended and unintended messages resulting from how the original message is framed.


A broader look at framing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Framing_(social_sciences)) reveals more. Orwell's "Newspeak" comes to mind. Frank Luntz is famous for his framing ideas.In one recent memo, titled 'The 14 Words Never to Use,' [Frank] Luntz urged conservatives to restrict themselves to phrases from what he calls ... the 'New American Lexicon.' Thus, a smart Republican, in Luntz's view, never advocates 'drilling for oil'; he prefers 'exploring for energy.' He should never criticize the 'government,' which cleans our streets and pays our firemen; he should attack 'Washington,' with its ceaseless thirst for taxes and regulations. 'We should never use the word outsourcing,' Luntz wrote, 'because we will then be asked to defend or end the practice of allowing companies to ship American jobs overseas.'


The point is, regardless if the message is imparted to only some people, there is a message in the ad that says, nursing is evidence based but superstition is also valid. I don't doubt there is another message, nursing is evidence based but compassion plays an important role. Both messages are there.

truethat
16th June 2011, 08:15 AM
The valid is where you are not listening to your own statements. JJ did not come out and back the claim. They are reflecting the ad to represent the community of Nursing.

I could deconstruct the ad to suggest that it's racist or sexist because the nurse is a black woman. That's a message that's in there. They are subconsciously promoting the idea that black women are nurses. How dare they!!

The ad is subconsciously promoting the idea that SOME nurses are black women. This is true.

The ad is subconsciously promoting the idea that SOME nurses believe in superstitions. THIS IS TRUE.

Just because you don't doesn't erase the reality for everyone else. It's just a bit weird that because you personally are opposed to the idea of superstition, good luck, prayers etc etc etc, that the Nursing Industry needs to buck up and take notice and take it off the table.

Many people on this planet are religious, superstitious or believe in good energy, karma etc etc etc.

So what?

I'm an atheist myself as you know, but this comes across no different as people trying to convert others to their personal belief system or lack thereof. I just find your attitude unrealistic and disrespectful to the views of others.

Skeptic Ginger
16th June 2011, 10:11 AM
The valid is where you are not listening to your own statements. JJ did not come out and back the claim. They are reflecting the ad to represent the community of Nursing.

I could deconstruct the ad to suggest that it's racist or sexist because the nurse is a black woman. That's a message that's in there. They are subconsciously promoting the idea that black women are nurses. How dare they!!No you could not legitimately claim the ad is racist, because it is not. But if you want to use this false analogy, the difference would be in the number of people who would hear the message, 'racist'. That number would be too small to be significant. Read through this thread and you will find that other people heard the message I did, nursing believes science is good but luck charms also 'stack the deck'.

The ad is subconsciously promoting the idea that SOME nurses are black women. This is true.

The ad is subconsciously promoting the idea that SOME nurses believe in superstitions. THIS IS TRUE.

Just because you don't doesn't erase the reality for everyone else. It's just a bit weird that because you personally are opposed to the idea of superstition, good luck, prayers etc etc etc, that the Nursing Industry needs to buck up and take notice and take it off the table.Your comments reflect a lack of awareness of the longstanding issue of the image of the profession of nursing. Did you look at the comments about the problem in the Nurse Advocacy letter to J&J about the ads? From Emet's post #92: The Center for Nursing Advocacy, Increasing Public Understanding of Nursing (http://www.nursingadvocacy.org/media/commercials/jnj_2005.html)We praised the "Nurse Scientists" video and the J&J web site. But we explained why the most powerful elements of the image campaign--the TV commercials--rely heavily on the same kind of emotional, maternal and "angel" imagery that has long been a factor in nursing not getting the resources and real respect it needs. We agree that nurses must be caring and compassionate. It's also no surprise that most people like being portrayed as noble, nor that career seekers in a tight job market will respond to big-budget ads promoting a profession that offers many relatively well-paying jobs. But that does not mean that it is in nurses' best interest to be seen primarily as kind hand-holders. We believe that only aggressive efforts to tell the public what it does not know about nursing--that nurses save lives and improve patient outcomes--are likely to attract the resources the profession needs to recruit, educate and retain the best candidates over the long term, and to avert the global nursing crisis.The advocacy group is more concerned about the typical non-science profession image of nursing and less concerned about the issue of promoting nurses as "stacking the deck" with superstitious charms. That's understandable given not everyone recognizes or focuses on the problem of magical thinking in medical beliefs. But the goal is related, changing the image of nursing to one of a science based profession, not a touchy feely 'caregiver' profession.


Many people on this planet are religious, superstitious or believe in good energy, karma etc etc etc.

So what?

I'm an atheist myself as you know, but this comes across no different as people trying to convert others to their personal belief system or lack thereof. I just find your attitude unrealistic and disrespectful to the views of others.Why this issue angers you is a mystery to me. Does it bothers you someone would promote evidence based, rational or critical thinking? That is what the JREF is about if you haven't noticed.

I'm less concerned that an individual nurse is not a rational being and more concerned with the image of the nursing profession as a whole. When an individual nurse reflects poorly on the profession, as many of them do, I would be concerned with that action. But a nurse who kept their superstitious beliefs to themselves when on the job, that would not be a concern of mine.

A nurse who supports a patient's superstitious beliefs is sometimes appropriate as and sometimes conflicting with, good nursing care. Linda's posts reveal a lot about that dilemma. It's a separate issue. This isn't about one or more nurses' personal beliefs.

The issue here is saying nursing is science based but it doesn't hurt to stack the deck with a superstitious gesture. The intended message I think most people in this thread agree, was that nurses stack the deck with compassion. Intended messages and actual messages are not always the same.

CaveDave
17th June 2011, 01:18 AM
You guys should just confess your love and get a room.

Awful lot of emotional HEAT around here...










:duck::p

Dave

Skeptic Ginger
17th June 2011, 02:05 AM
You guys should just confess your love and get a room.

Awful lot of emotional HEAT around here...










:duck::p

DaveI don't feel emotional. I think the image of nursing in the media is important, but that's about it.

jhunter1163
17th June 2011, 04:20 AM
Nope, not seeing the endorsement of woo here. I see a nurse doing things to treat her patient, and then doing something compassionate. I guess it's there if you really want to see it, but I'd bet that 95 percent of people (or more) wouldn't take that away from this ad.

truethat
17th June 2011, 09:39 AM
I don't feel emotional. I think the image of nursing in the media is important, but that's about it.

No you think YOUR personal image of nursing in the media should reflect Skeptic Ginger's personality and beliefs and if it doesn't then it's wrong.

You consistently ignore the fact that the majority of nurses out there do believe in God, prayer, religions, karma and/or superstition. The ad DOES reflect the reality of nursing. Just not yours.

It's just a tad obnoxious in my opinion to expect the entire nursing industry to reflect your personal beliefs because you think everyone else's is wrong.

I'm sure you don't mean it that way but it does come across as if you think your personal views are more important than everyone else's.

Skeptic Ginger
17th June 2011, 10:44 AM
Nope, not seeing the endorsement of woo here. I see a nurse doing things to treat her patient, and then doing something compassionate. I guess it's there if you really want to see it, but I'd bet that 95 percent of people (or more) wouldn't take that away from this ad.The majority of the time, negative media images of nurses have an influence that is under the radar of most people. It doesn't lessen the impact of such media messages.

Skeptic Ginger
17th June 2011, 10:45 AM
No you think YOUR personal image of nursing in the media should reflect Skeptic Ginger's personality and beliefs and if it doesn't then it's wrong.

You consistently ignore the fact that the majority of nurses out there do believe in God, prayer, religions, karma and/or superstition. The ad DOES reflect the reality of nursing. Just not yours.

It's just a tad obnoxious in my opinion to expect the entire nursing industry to reflect your personal beliefs because you think everyone else's is wrong.

I'm sure you don't mean it that way but it does come across as if you think your personal views are more important than everyone else's.You've gone beyond discussion of the issue into a personal attack. There's no reason to answer this post.

CaveDave
17th June 2011, 10:50 AM
The majority of the time, negative media images of nurses have an influence that is under the radar of most people. It doesn't lessen the impact of such media messages.

Evidence...

Citations?

{ETA: Other than Position Statements from the Socialist Nursing Workers Union?}:rolleyes:;):duck:

Dave

CaveDave
17th June 2011, 10:51 AM
You've gone beyond discussion of the issue into a personal attack. There's no reason to answer this post.

And yet, you did...

D

Skeptic Ginger
17th June 2011, 11:15 AM
Do nurses have a media image problem? Consider the following examples:

Nurses and the Media: The Center for Nursing Advocacy (http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/524602)Though annual Gallup polls routinely find nurses at the top of the "trust" scale, the Center finds a disconnect between that belief and true respect for the nursing profession. The reason the "most trusted" poll results don't do much for nursing is that this public view often goes hand in hand with the prevailing vision of nurses as devoted, angelic handmaidens. We fear that the poll results are essentially an expression of a vague, sentimental affection for nurses flowing from these stereotypes. Patients might trust us to hold their wallets while they're in surgery, but not to save their lives.

Heroes, Whores and Handmaidens: 3rd Annual Golden Lamp Awards Rank Best and Worst Media Portrayals of Nursing in 2005 (http://www.nursingadvocacy.org/press/releases/golden/2005/rel.html)When the going gets tough, the nurses often go missing from elite press coverage. Many press organs ran Marchione's AP piece about the plight of New Orleans hospitals after Hurricane Katrina. It depicted physicians as having done virtually everything of note for the patients at local hospitals during the worst hours of the aftermath, including many references to what "doctors" did, and multiple quotes and/or description of no less than eight named physicians and a medical student--but not one nurse. Perlez's front-page Times story reported that many survivors of the recent Asian tsunami faced unnecessary amputation or even death because of a lack of emergency care in Aceh, Indonesia. The lengthy piece's almost universal descriptions of care as being provided solely by physicians, and its reliance solely on expert comment by physicians, clearly suggested that nurses and other health care workers were doing nothing of significance in the stricken province. And Shapiro's 26-minute NPR report on the care and rehabilitation of U.S. Marines wounded in Iraq is a striking example of what we might call the "nurses' station" school of health care journalism. Listeners heard plenty about how "doctors" had been caring for the Marines, but no nursing was described, no nurses were mentioned, and the only utterance of the word "nurse" occurred when one patient walks past "the nurses' station" at Bethesda Naval Hospital. TIME's massive report, which discussed preventable and treatable diseases that claim millions of lives each year, fostered the impression that physicians provide virtually all important developing world health care. Half of the total report is devoted to profiles of 18 "heroes" in the fight against these diseases. Of the 15 health care professionals profiled, 12 are physicians. Not one is recognized for her nursing. Wilson's piece, part of an NPR global health series, examined the trend of developing world physicians migrating to wealthier nations. The piece presents nurses as peripheral health workers who have only basic physician skills, rather than members of a distinct profession, and suggests that nurses as qualified to care only for patients with less serious illnesses. This is consistent with the physician-centrism in the other reports Wilson filed in the series, which focused on the work of Doctors Without Borders and the Flying Doctors in Africa. In these pieces, only diagnosis and treatment by heroic roving physicians matters.Dr. Edward Hill and the Board of Directors of the American Medical Association, for their continuing refusal even to respond to more than 3,700 letters--over 1500 of them original--protesting Dr. Hill's comments on a Nov. 14, 2005 segment of NBC's "Today" Show about nurse practitioner (NP)-staffed "quick clinics." Dr. Hill expressed "concern" that we not confuse the "convenience" and "affordability" of the clinics with "quality," and made clear that his concern focused on "supervision of these non-physician providers." Significant research shows that NP care is at least as good as that provided by physicians, and NPs need no physician supervision. Even though NBC News has had significant interactions with nurses about their concerns and vowed to work with nursing organizations on its coverage in the future, the AMA has yet to respond at all.


I would like to point out, the issues described above are not about a direct obvious media message. The problem is about the unspoken messages.


-

Skeptic Ginger
17th June 2011, 11:17 AM
And yet, you did...

DIt was the polite thing to do rather than just ignoring it.

Skeptic Ginger
17th June 2011, 11:20 AM
Evidence...

Citations?...

Dave

See the post above I was writing while you wrote this one.

truethat
17th June 2011, 11:35 AM
It was the polite thing to do rather than just ignoring it.

It's not a personal attack. It's a fact which is why you are not answering it.

Is it not true that the majority of nurses in the United States DO have some sort of "superstition" whether that be religious or otherwise? The ad is an accurate reflection of nurses.

This is true. I've pointed it out to you several times and you just keep ignoring it and cherry picking evidence in a way that is a confirmation bias.

You state that your complaint with the ad is that it gives the impression that nurses use science and superstition when treating patients.

The fact is THEY DO. Just because you don't you think the ad is invalid. But that's not true at all.


Most people I know have great respect for nurses. The profession might not get the attention that they deserve, but that's because that is what their job entails.

It's like asking for teachers to get more respect for teaching, or cops more respect for being cops. If your job is to nurse and you get paid buckets of money to do so, and you chose this as a profession, what more do you need?

Nurses are paid very well. That is one way that society demonstrates respect. Compare the salary of nurses with the salaries of fire fighters and cops, who put their lives on the line every day?

Good pay, appreciation in their line of work. Also many people do not like being in a hospital. And so although they appreciate nurses the fact is most people don't encounter nurses unless they are having a medical emergency. This might contribute to the reason why there is a sort of overlooking of them.

Even doctors see their patients outside the hospital for checkups and whatnot. Usually the assistant in the office is not a nurse.

There are logical ways to discuss the issues with regard to nursing. You just seem to want to make an issue of it.

Shrug, I guess you have an axe to grind as a nurse.

Skeptic Ginger
17th June 2011, 11:50 AM
Yawn.....

truethat
17th June 2011, 11:53 AM
So you disagree that most nurses are superstitious to some degree, either religiously or otherwise?


Chuckle....;)


I notice you seem to avoid answering direct questions on this.

Skeptic Ginger
17th June 2011, 12:26 PM
So you disagree that most nurses are superstitious to some degree, either religiously or otherwise?


Chuckle....;)


I notice you seem to avoid answering direct questions on this.I answered this several times. No one has cited any evidence that nurses are any more or less superstitious than any other group of similar professionals. Lots of people are superstitious.

John Albert
17th June 2011, 12:48 PM
This ad is RACIST!

As an American of Irish heritage, I find it deeply offensive.

truethat
17th June 2011, 12:55 PM
I answered this several times. No one has cited any evidence that nurses are any more or less superstitious than any other group of similar professionals. Lots of people are superstitious.

That's not what I wrote. You seem to have a habit of inserting "insults" into statements when they are not there. I did not say nurses are more or less superstitious than any other group.

The fact is, that across the board for everyone the majority of people have some sort of "superstitious" beliefs, be it astrology, religion, good luck charms or karma.

Nurses are no different. You are the minority in your beliefs yet you want an ad to represent your personal views as the overall view of nursing.

MOST NURSES like MOST PEOPLE do have these beliefs. The ad reflected the reality of Nurses. Just because it's not your personal view doesn't make it offensive to nurses. It's just offensive to you personally.

If you want to complain about that for personal reasons I think most people here would agree with you. But you trying to make it into something more is what is unrealistic.


It would be no different if a Muslim nurse complained that the ad was offensive because it showed a "good luck charm" instead of the Qu'ran, or a Catholic saying the ad was offensive because it didn't use a rosary.

Skeptic Ginger
17th June 2011, 01:09 PM
Do you have anything more than your stereotyped opinion of the nursing profession to support your assertion? Your opinion is not consistent with my 35 years of experience in the profession. I find that nurses fall across a continuum. There's a point on that continuum where what I can best describe as blue collar nursing changes to professional nursing.

You seem to be under the impression the entire field of college degreed (BSN and above) nurses who work in some of the most technical and advanced nursing fields are about the same as the basic nurses are. You have adopted that media image the Nurse Advocacy organization is trying to combat.

Your posts reflect an example of the damaging results of the media image.

truethat
17th June 2011, 01:18 PM
Do you have anything more than your stereotyped opinion of the nursing profession to support your assertion? Your opinion is not consistent with my 35 years of experience in the profession. I find that nurses fall across a continuum. There's a point on that continuum where what I can best describe as blue collar nursing changes to professional nursing.

You seem to be under the impression the entire field of college degreed (BSN and above) nurses who work in some of the most technical and advanced nursing fields are about the same as the basic nurses are. You have adopted that media image the Nurse Advocacy organization is trying to combat.

Your posts reflect an example of the damaging results of the media image.


This made me seriously laugh out loud.


No several very good friends of mine are nurses. One is a pediatric nurse. RNs not nurses aids or the like. And they ALL BELIEVE IN GOD. And btw when the one works with little babies who are sick she prays for them.


I'm kinda shocked SG are you deliberately not trying to understand it?


REALITY

MOST NURSES BELIEVE IN GOD. Period the end. Why? Because most PEOPLE believe in God.

Do you deny this? Do you deny that the majority of Nurses believe in some sort of superstition be it religion or good luck?


I mean come on now, it's just gotten silly at this point.

John Albert
17th June 2011, 01:20 PM
The argument whether real-life nurses are generally more or less superstitious is kind of irrelevant, besides being difficult to prove either way without conducting a series of elaborate sociological studies.

Several people in this thread have shared their interpretations of the ad and also acknowledged how by a stretch we can understand what you are saying and how you COULD come up with that interpretation but that it doesn't seem the intention of the ad makers.


What message are they trying to convey with this ad?

Are they trying to say that superstition is a desirable trait?

That it's an inherent condition of being human?

That juggling belief "in the power of science and medicine" along with irrational superstitions like luck charms somehow helps nurses in their ability to do their job?

How about this interpretation:

I really don't think the idea is to promote superstition. There's a very strong popular feeling in the United States that the medical establishment is cold and unfeeling, and this ad is clearly (to me, anyway) intended to combat that misconception.

Doctors and the pharmaceutical companies are often maligned as being cold, logical and materialistic, more concerned with technology, protocols and profits over the well-being and feelings of patients. Medical people use a lot of technical terminology that most folks find inscrutable. The doctor is the arrogant, wealthy "bad guy" who coolly, dispassionately delivers awful news to patients and their families. Doctors are also maligned simply for knowing more than most patients do about their own health situation, and some people feel that represents a "loss of control" over their own bodies. "Big Pharma" is often portrayed and seen as a powerful cabal of faceless corporations that cynically exploit the suffering of human beings in order to turn a profit. These sentiments hurt the credibility of the medical industry. They're precisely the kinds of feelings that SCAM promoters ply on to peddle their nonsense.

This ad is meant to show that medical professionals really do care about the people they're treating. I think they chose a nurse for this ad because nurses are, more than any other healthcare pros, sort of the "human face" of the medical establishment. Whereas doctors may consult with patients for only a few short minutes at a time and then issue orders for others to follow, hospital nurses see the patients every day on a one-to-one basis. They give comfort, administer the medicines, and generally bridge the gap between the science and the humanity of the healthcare industry.

I think the shamrock is meant as a symbol, supposed to represent hope. Of course the advertisers might have used a crucifix, a Star of David, a Hamsa, or any other amulet, but religious types might deem that offensively exclusive, and anyway it's sort of beside the point. The idea being that hope may be irrational and unscientific, but after all the science is done, the critical decisions have been made and medical actions taken, hope is the only thing people have left to find comfort in. I think the ad is meant to show that nurses care not only about the specifics of their jobs, but also about the patients they see every day, and after they've done the hard work, they still put in that little extra bit of heart to offer hope for the patients' recovery.

That's what I get out of it. I understand the derision about the good luck charm, but to me it means that the nurse may use science in her job, but she doesn't let it get in the way of her compassion for her patients or her respect for their personal beliefs.

truethat
17th June 2011, 01:24 PM
The argument whether real-life nurses are generally more or less superstitious is kind of irrelevant, besides being difficult to prove either way without conducting a series of elaborate sociological studies.




What message are they trying to convey with this ad?

Are they trying to say that superstition is a desirable trait?

That it's an inherent condition of being human?

That juggling belief "in the power of science and medicine" along with irrational superstition somehow helps nurses in their ability to do their job?

How about this interpretation:

I really don't think the idea is to promote superstition. There's a very strong popular feeling in the United States that the medical establishment is cold and unfeeling, and this ad is clearly (to me, anyway) intended to combat that misconception.

Doctors and the pharmaceutical companies are often maligned as being cold, logical and materialistic, more concerned with technology, protocols and profits over the well-being and feelings of patients. Medical people use a lot of technical terminology that most folks find inscrutable. The doctor is the arrogant, wealthy "bad guy" who coolly, dispassionately delivers awful news to patients and their families. "Big Pharma" is the powerful cabal of faceless corporations that cynically exploit the suffering of human beings in order to turn a profit. These are the kinds of feelings that SCAM promoters ply on to peddle their nonsense.

This ad is meant to show that medical professionals really do care about the people they're treating. I think they chose a nurse for this ad because nurses are, more than any other healthcare pros, sort of the "human face" of the medical establishment. Whereas doctors may consult with patients for a few short minutes at a time and then issue orders for other to follow, hospital nurses see the patients every day on a one-to-one basis, they give comfort, administer the medicines, and generally bridge the gap between the science and the humanity of the healthcare industry.

I think the shamrock is meant as a symbol, supposed to represent hope. Of course the advertisers might have used a crucifix, a Star of David, a Hamsa, or any other amulet, but religious types might deem that offensively exclusive, and anyway it's sort of beside the point. The idea being that hope may be irrational and unscientific, but after all the science is done, the critical decisions have been made and medical actions taken, hope is the only thing people have left for comfort. I think the ad is meant to show that nurses care not only about the specifics of their jobs, but also about the patients they see for every day, and after they've done the hard work, they still put in that little extra bit of heart to offer hope for the patients' recovery.


I agree, as it seems do most people on the thread. But SG is suggesting that there is a danger of an unintended message that suggests Nurses are superstitious.

The funny thing is that she seems to think this is a false representation. I'm trying to point out to her that it is an ACCURATE representation. It just doesn't represent HER beliefs.

http://nursing.advanceweb.com/Regional-Articles/Features/Respecting-Religious-Diversity.aspx



"We believe in addressing the whole person: mind, body and spirit, and so much of the healing that occurs in the hospital setting is related to the individual's spiritual well-being." That's how Kathleen Penzes, MN, RN-BC, NEA-BC, executive director of women's services and nursing administration at St. Joseph Hospital of Orange, described the facility's mission of care, adding that "even though we're a Catholic organization, we look at religion not so much as conformation with an organized body of beliefs, but as part of the spiritual nature of human beings."



PART OF THE MISSION: At St. Joseph Hospital of Orange, information about spirituality and ethics is incorporated into nursing orientation, and it's reviewed every year. Here, Kathleen Penzes, MN, RN-BC, NEA-BC (left), reviews patient information with Teresa Servin, NA, and Angela Pagnanelli, RN. courtesy Jason Wallis Photographer, Wallis Photo LLC Honoring Spirituality

CaveDave
17th June 2011, 01:30 PM
Do nurses have a media image problem? Consider the following examples:

Nurses and the Media: The Center for Nursing Advocacy (http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/524602)

Heroes, Whores and Handmaidens: 3rd Annual Golden Lamp Awards Rank Best and Worst Media Portrayals of Nursing in 2005 (http://www.nursingadvocacy.org/press/releases/golden/2005/rel.html)


I would like to point out, the issues described above are not about a direct obvious media message. The problem is about the unspoken messages.


-

No time now to go into your sources, but your excerpts seem almost anecdotal in nature, mostly opinion, with little data or demonstration of measurable real-world effects.

It was the polite thing to do rather than just ignoring it.

Alright.:)

See the post above I was writing while you wrote this one.

Thanks.

See my response to your PM. You may re-post it here if you desire.

Cheers,

Dave

Skeptic Ginger
17th June 2011, 02:02 PM
No time now to go into your sources, but your excerpts seem almost anecdotal in nature, mostly opinion, with little data or demonstration of measurable real-world effects.



Alright.:)



Thanks.

See my response to your PM. You may re-post it here if you desire.

Cheers,

DaveMy PM reply had a tad more politics than is thread related so I'll leave them private. I have no problem with you posting my reply and you are welcome to post it here with a reply as well, but I just thought it went off topic.


As for the evidence being all anecdotal, no, it is not. What kind of hard data would you like to see?

Skeptic Ginger
17th June 2011, 02:07 PM
....
How about this interpretation:

I really don't think the idea is to promote superstition. There's a very strong popular feeling in the United States that the medical establishment is cold and unfeeling, and this ad is clearly (to me, anyway) intended to combat that misconception.

Doctors and the pharmaceutical companies are often maligned as being cold, logical and materialistic, more concerned with technology, protocols and profits over the well-being and feelings of patients. Medical people use a lot of technical terminology that most folks find inscrutable. The doctor is the arrogant, wealthy "bad guy" who coolly, dispassionately delivers awful news to patients and their families. Doctors are also maligned simply for knowing more than most patients do about their own health situation, and some people feel that represents a "loss of control" over their own bodies. "Big Pharma" is often portrayed and seen as a powerful cabal of faceless corporations that cynically exploit the suffering of human beings in order to turn a profit. These sentiments hurt the credibility of the medical industry. They're precisely the kinds of feelings that SCAM promoters ply on to peddle their nonsense.

This ad is meant to show that medical professionals really do care about the people they're treating. I think they chose a nurse for this ad because nurses are, more than any other healthcare pros, sort of the "human face" of the medical establishment. Whereas doctors may consult with patients for only a few short minutes at a time and then issue orders for others to follow, hospital nurses see the patients every day on a one-to-one basis. They give comfort, administer the medicines, and generally bridge the gap between the science and the humanity of the healthcare industry.The ad is part of a bigger campaign by J&J to promote nursing. It is not about softening the science of medicine in the public's view.

J&J has explained the ad campaign in defense of criticism by the Nurse Advocacy organization who complained the campaign, which includes several different ads, continues to reinforce the idea nursing is not a science.

Skeptic Ginger
17th June 2011, 02:08 PM
This made me seriously laugh out loud.


No several very good friends of mine are nurses. One is a pediatric nurse. RNs not nurses aids or the like. And they ALL BELIEVE IN GOD. And btw when the one works with little babies who are sick she prays for them.


I'm kinda shocked SG are you deliberately not trying to understand it?


REALITY

MOST NURSES BELIEVE IN GOD. Period the end. Why? Because most PEOPLE believe in God.

Do you deny this? Do you deny that the majority of Nurses believe in some sort of superstition be it religion or good luck?


I mean come on now, it's just gotten silly at this point.So your evidence is, you know a couple nurses? :rolleyes:

Skeptic Ginger
17th June 2011, 02:13 PM
I agree, as it seems do most people on the thread. But SG is suggesting that there is a danger of an unintended message that suggests Nurses are superstitious.

The funny thing is that she seems to think this is a false representation. I'm trying to point out to her that it is an ACCURATE representation. It just doesn't represent HER beliefs.

http://nursing.advanceweb.com/Regional-Articles/Features/Respecting-Religious-Diversity.aspxI can only guess there is something too subtle about the difference between my position and your straw man that keeps you repeating the straw man.

The issue is not about nurses. It is about the nursing profession and the science of nursing.

Nursing is a science. I imagine that is not something a lot of people are fully aware of. If putting a good luck charm from an unconscious patient's pocket into the patient's hand were a nursing intervention, it would need to be based on research that such a measure was an effective intervention.

truethat
17th June 2011, 02:16 PM
I can only guess there is something too subtle about the difference between my position and your straw man that keeps you repeating the straw man.

The issue is not about nurses. It is about the nursing profession and the science of nursing.

Nursing is a science. I imagine that is not something a lot of people are fully aware of. If putting a good luck charm from an unconscious patient's pocket into the patient's hand were a nursing intervention, it would need to be based on research that such a measure was an effective intervention.

Sorry sweetie, the ad campaign is trying to attract NURSES. It's not about teaching people nursing techniques or the science of nursing.

I think you are the one that is creating the straw man here. Anyway bored. :cool:

truethat
17th June 2011, 02:19 PM
So your evidence is, you know a couple nurses? :rolleyes:



Isn't that your argument? Haven't you been saying throughout that in your 35 years as a nurse?


No the evidence is that the majority of people believe in god, spirituality, superstition etc etc etc.

The ad is aiming to represent nurses. So your point is dead on it's feet.

You keep talking about things that have nothing to do with the ad. And refusing to answer direct questions.


Seems like you are trying to "win" the discussion instead of looking at it realistically.

No matter if you don't like it, the majority of Nurses are represented by the ad.

Sorry you feel left out and want to ruin it for everyone else. Carry on.

Skeptic Ginger
17th June 2011, 02:26 PM
Sorry sweetie, the ad campaign is trying to attract NURSES. It's not about teaching people nursing techniques or the science of nursing.

I think you are the one that is creating the straw man here. Anyway bored. :cool:You again repeat a straw man. There is not much disagreement in the thread as to J&J's intended message.

Unintended messages occur in advertisements all the time. Sometimes intended messages are purposefully obscured. I have posted links to more information on this issue.

Skeptic Ginger
17th June 2011, 02:33 PM
Isn't that your argument? Haven't you been saying throughout that in your 35 years as a nurse?35 years, vs you know two nurses?

I've worked as a nurse in many completely different settings from public health to ICU, in 4 different states. I have returned to nursing programs in college 3 times, so I've also worked in nursing from that first job in a 35 bed rural hospital with my 2 yr degree to my current private practice as a nurse practitioner with an MSN. I have been active politically in the nursing profession and contributed to changing the definition of nursing in this state. I think that is a tad more than, I know a couple nurses.

CaveDave
17th June 2011, 03:12 PM
It's not a personal attack. It's a fact which is why you are not answering it.

Is it not true that the majority of nurses in the United States DO have some sort of "superstition" whether that be religious or otherwise? The ad is an accurate reflection of nurses.

This is true. I've pointed it out to you several times and you just keep ignoring it and cherry picking evidence in a way that is a confirmation bias.

You state that your complaint with the ad is that it gives the impression that nurses use science and superstition when treating patients.

The fact is THEY DO. Just because you don't you think the ad is invalid. But that's not true at all.


Most people I know have great respect for nurses. The profession might not get the attention that they deserve, but that's because that is what their job entails.

It's like asking for teachers to get more respect for teaching, or cops more respect for being cops. If your job is to nurse and you get paid buckets of money to do so, and you chose this as a profession, what more do you need?

Nurses are paid very well. That is one way that society demonstrates respect. Compare the salary of nurses with the salaries of fire fighters and cops, who put their lives on the line every day?

Good pay, appreciation in their line of work. Also many people do not like being in a hospital. And so although they appreciate nurses the fact is most people don't encounter nurses unless they are having a medical emergency. This might contribute to the reason why there is a sort of overlooking of them.

Even doctors see their patients outside the hospital for checkups and whatnot. Usually the assistant in the office is not a nurse.

There are logical ways to discuss the issues with regard to nursing. You just seem to want to make an issue of it.

Shrug, I guess you have an axe to grind as a nurse.

Engineers, Automotive Technicians, Facility Maintenance Technicians, etc. are often considered dirty, drooling, single-syllable semi-morons, too (I have been all three, and more:D), but are more often highly skilled, professional, EXPERTS in making the "wheels of society" able to turn. I don't let it bother me; if someone thinks they can do without them, they may find out the HARD way.;

That's not what I wrote. You seem to have a habit of inserting "insults" into statements when they are not there. I did not say nurses are more or less superstitious than any other group.

The fact is, that across the board for everyone the majority of people have some sort of "superstitious" beliefs, be it astrology, religion, good luck charms or karma.

Nurses are no different. You are the minority in your beliefs yet you want an ad to represent your personal views as the overall view of nursing.

MOST NURSES like MOST PEOPLE do have these beliefs. The ad reflected the reality of Nurses. Just because it's not your personal view doesn't make it offensive to nurses. It's just offensive to you personally.

If you want to complain about that for personal reasons I think most people here would agree with you. But you trying to make it into something more is what is unrealistic.


It would be no different if a Muslim nurse complained that the ad was offensive because it showed a "good luck charm" instead of the Qu'ran, or a Catholic saying the ad was offensive because it didn't use a rosary.

My impressions, too.

Do you have anything more than your stereotyped opinion of the nursing profession to support your assertion? Your opinion is not consistent with my 35 years of experience in the profession. I find that nurses fall across a continuum. There's a point on that continuum where what I can best describe as blue collar nursing changes to professional nursing.

You seem to be under the impression the entire field of college degreed (BSN and above) nurses who work in some of the most technical and advanced nursing fields are about the same as the basic nurses are. You have adopted that media image the Nurse Advocacy organization is trying to combat.

Your posts reflect an example of the damaging results of the media image.

I wonder if you are having your view of the Forest blocked by some inconveniently placed nearby Trees.

I think you are well read on Psychosocial topics, and wonder if it has occurred to you that sometimes a person can be so invested in a topic that their perceptions can be warped by the "gravity" of the subject?

Clinical detachment is sometimes a Good Thing.:)

This made me seriously laugh out loud.


No several very good friends of mine are nurses. One is a pediatric nurse. RNs not nurses aids or the like. And they ALL BELIEVE IN GOD. And btw when the one works with little babies who are sick she prays for them.


I'm kinda shocked SG are you deliberately not trying to understand it?


REALITY

MOST NURSES BELIEVE IN GOD. Period the end. Why? Because most PEOPLE believe in God.

Do you deny this? Do you deny that the majority of Nurses believe in some sort of superstition be it religion or good luck?


I mean come on now, it's just gotten silly at this point.

Made me wonder...

The argument whether real-life nurses are generally more or less superstitious is kind of irrelevant, besides being difficult to prove either way without conducting a series of elaborate sociological studies.




What message are they trying to convey with this ad?

Are they trying to say that superstition is a desirable trait?

That it's an inherent condition of being human?

That juggling belief "in the power of science and medicine" along with irrational superstitions like luck charms somehow helps nurses in their ability to do their job?

How about this interpretation:

I really don't think the idea is to promote superstition. There's a very strong popular feeling in the United States that the medical establishment is cold and unfeeling, and this ad is clearly (to me, anyway) intended to combat that misconception.

Doctors and the pharmaceutical companies are often maligned as being cold, logical and materialistic, more concerned with technology, protocols and profits over the well-being and feelings of patients. Medical people use a lot of technical terminology that most folks find inscrutable. The doctor is the arrogant, wealthy "bad guy" who coolly, dispassionately delivers awful news to patients and their families. Doctors are also maligned simply for knowing more than most patients do about their own health situation, and some people feel that represents a "loss of control" over their own bodies. "Big Pharma" is often portrayed and seen as a powerful cabal of faceless corporations that cynically exploit the suffering of human beings in order to turn a profit. These sentiments hurt the credibility of the medical industry. They're precisely the kinds of feelings that SCAM promoters ply on to peddle their nonsense.

This ad is meant to show that medical professionals really do care about the people they're treating. I think they chose a nurse for this ad because nurses are, more than any other healthcare pros, sort of the "human face" of the medical establishment. Whereas doctors may consult with patients for only a few short minutes at a time and then issue orders for others to follow, hospital nurses see the patients every day on a one-to-one basis. They give comfort, administer the medicines, and generally bridge the gap between the science and the humanity of the healthcare industry.

(Adding for completeness and fairness: They also have to know and use procedures and techniques that the MDs might not even know about, because the Nurses job is different ffrom the MDs; not just "assistant", but a separate profession.)

I think the shamrock is meant as a symbol, supposed to represent hope. Of course the advertisers might have used a crucifix, a Star of David, a Hamsa, or any other amulet, but religious types might deem that offensively exclusive, and anyway it's sort of beside the point. The idea being that hope may be irrational and unscientific, but after all the science is done, the critical decisions have been made and medical actions taken, hope is the only thing people have left to find comfort in. I think the ad is meant to show that nurses care not only about the specifics of their jobs, but also about the patients they see every day, and after they've done the hard work, they still put in that little extra bit of heart to offer hope for the patients' recovery.

That's what I get out of it. I understand the derision about the good luck charm, but to me it means that the nurse may use science in her job, but she doesn't let it get in the way of her compassion for her patients or her respect for their personal beliefs.

Yep.

I agree, as it seems do most people on the thread. But SG is suggesting that there is a danger of an unintended message that suggests Nurses are superstitious.

The funny thing is that she seems to think this is a false representation. I'm trying to point out to her that it is an ACCURATE representation. It just doesn't represent HER beliefs.

http://nursing.advanceweb.com/Regional-Articles/Features/Respecting-Religious-Diversity.aspx

Quote:
"We believe in addressing the whole person: mind, body and spirit, and so much of the healing that occurs in the hospital setting is related to the individual's spiritual well-being." That's how Kathleen Penzes, MN, RN-BC, NEA-BC, executive director of women's services and nursing administration at St. Joseph Hospital of Orange, described the facility's mission of care, adding that "even though we're a Catholic organization, we look at religion not so much as conformation with an organized body of beliefs, but as part of the spiritual nature of human beings."



PART OF THE MISSION: At St. Joseph Hospital of Orange, information about spirituality and ethics is incorporated into nursing orientation, and it's reviewed every year. Here, Kathleen Penzes, MN, RN-BC, NEA-BC (left), reviews patient information with Teresa Servin, NA, and Angela Pagnanelli, RN. courtesy Jason Wallis Photographer, Wallis Photo LLC Honoring Spirituality


On a side note, the Hospital where I worked (keeping the technical machinery running safely) was part of that outfit. It was owned and operated by "The Sisters of St. Joseph of Orange", and the nuns wore full habits (penguins), but every one of them were highly educated in Nursing Science.

The other staff and doctors sometimes seem to think of our department as Porters and floor cleaners, but every job had it's place, and deserves respect.

Cheers,

Dave

truethat
17th June 2011, 03:24 PM
35 years, vs you know two nurses?

I've worked as a nurse in many completely different settings from public health to ICU, in 4 different states. I have returned to nursing programs in college 3 times, so I've also worked in nursing from that first job in a 35 bed rural hospital with my 2 yr degree to my current private practice as a nurse practitioner with an MSN. I have been active politically in the nursing profession and contributed to changing the definition of nursing in this state. I think that is a tad more than, I know a couple nurses.

Great, I'm going to only ask one more time. If you don't answer or twist it yet again it's clear then that you are just avoiding the direct answer because you don't want to admit you are wrong.


In all your years of experience dealing with other nurses in all these places, please state your opinion of the percentage of nurses that did not believe in some sort of spiritual, religious, superstitious or karmic type belief?

Is it your assertion that the majority of nurses with whom you engaged did NOT have some sort of belief like those?

truethat
17th June 2011, 03:29 PM
Engineers, Automotive Technicians, Facility Maintenance Technicians, etc. are often considered dirty, drooling, single-syllable semi-morons, too (I have been all three, and more:D), but are more often highly skilled, professional, EXPERTS in making the "wheels of society" able to turn. I don't let it bother me; if someone thinks they can do without them, they may find out the HARD way.;



My impressions, too.



I wonder if you are having your view of the Forest blocked by some inconveniently placed nearby Trees.

I think you are well read on Psychosocial topics, and wonder if it has occurred to you that sometimes a person can be so invested in a topic that their perceptions can be warped by the "gravity" of the subject?

Clinical detachment is sometimes a Good Thing.:)



Made me wonder...



(Adding for completeness and fairness: They also have to know and use procedures and techniques that the MDs might not even know about, because the Nurses job is different ffrom the MDs; not just "assistant", but a separate profession.)



Yep.





On a side note, the Hospital where I worked (keeping the technical machinery running safely) was part of that outfit. It was owned and operated by "The Sisters of St. Joseph of Orange", and the nuns wore full habits (penguins), but every one of them were highly educated in Nursing Science.

The other staff and doctors sometimes seem to think of our department as Porters and floor cleaners, but every job had it's place, and deserves respect.

Cheers,

Dave


I think I'd have more respect for the argument if it was about the way the nurse is presented as not being a separate profession.


It's interesting to watch "clinical detachment" get wound up in a hissy fit while the argument being presented is that Nurses are scientific.


:cool:;)

CaveDave
17th June 2011, 05:16 PM
My PM reply had a tad more politics than is thread related so I'll leave them private. I have no problem with you posting my reply and you are welcome to post it here with a reply as well, but I just thought it went off topic.
Agreed.

As for the evidence being all anecdotal, no, it is not. What kind of hard data would you like to see?

Mostly as in what portion of people viewing that message would ACTUALLY have their preconceptions changed by it, and the proportion of positive to negative shift, in each of the possible scenarios (Yours vs Theirs)

Also, would making the message say what you wanted have any measurable benefit, in real world terms, to the Profession as a whole.

All trials done as randomized, doubly-blinded, with control groups.;)
As many variables controlled possible, with good sample size.

Cheers,

Dave

Prometheus
17th June 2011, 10:29 PM
Agreed.


Mostly as in what portion of people viewing that message would ACTUALLY have their preconceptions changed by it, and the proportion of positive to negative shift, in each of the possible scenarios (Yours vs Theirs)

Also, would making the message say what you wanted have any measurable benefit, in real world terms, to the Profession as a whole.

All trials done as randomized, doubly-blinded, with control groups.;)
As many variables controlled possible, with good sample size.

Cheers,

Dave

Given that this ad is part of large, high-profile campaign, likely produced by an experience professional ad agency at the behest of a large deep pocket corporation with its own reputation to defend, I'd be surprised if J&J hasn't researched the issue and collected exactly the data you're looking for. :)

I think its likely that they know just how many people are likely to interpret the ad in each of the ways that participants in this thread have done.

I think the message SG is worried about is present, but that it's likely the case that both the charm and the tag line only serve to reinforce communication of J&J's intended message.

Consider: The opening of the ad shows a highly skilled nurse actively participating in the saving of a man's life, while her voice over extols the virtue of science in nursing. This opening scene, we know because of links SG has provided above, falls outside the common media portrayal of nurses, and likely outside the perception of a large swath of the general population (who, incidentally, are statistically quite likely to believe in a variety of woo).

The ad is showing them an unfamiliar and, unfortunately, surprising (to them) view of nurses. In order to communicate this core message to these people, some sort of credibility needs to be developed, and it needs to be done within just a few seconds of video footage.

I submit that the charm and the tag line, "But I also believe in Stacking the Deck," does exactly that. The presence of this line, will, for most people, have exactly the opposite effect of the one that SG is worried about. Instead of reinforcing the popular misconception which it represents, it will actually anchor the ad's core message--it's opposite--in the minds of those who already hold that misconception, by sympathizing with their current belief.

The worrisome message is there, but it's actually been put to use to subvert itself.

CaveDave
17th June 2011, 11:04 PM
Given that this ad is part of large, high-profile campaign, likely produced by an experience professional ad agency at the behest of a large deep pocket corporation with its own reputation to defend, I'd be surprised if J&J hasn't researched the issue and collected exactly the data you're looking for. :)
Makes sense.

I think its likely that they know just how many people are likely to interpret the ad in each of the ways that participants in this thread have done.
That's reasonable.
Anyone up for smuggling out a copy?

I think the message SG is worried about is present, but that it's likely the case that both the charm and the tag line only serve to reinforce communication of J&J's intended message.

I suspect the same.

Consider: The opening of the ad shows a highly skilled nurse actively participating in the saving of a man's life, while her voice over extols the virtue of science in nursing. This opening scene, we know because of links SG has provided above, falls outside the common media portrayal of nurses, and likely outside the perception of a large swath of the general population (who, incidentally, are statistically quite likely to believe in a variety of woo).

Yes.

The ad is showing them an unfamiliar and, unfortunately, surprising (to them) view of nurses. In order to communicate this core message to these people, some sort of credibility needs to be developed, and it needs to be done within just a few seconds of video footage.

I submit that the charm and the tag line, "But I also believe in Stacking the Deck," does exactly that. The presence of this line, will, for most people, have exactly the opposite effect of the one that SG is worried about. Instead of reinforcing the popular misconception which it represents, it will actually anchor the ad's core message--it's opposite--in the minds of those who already hold that misconception, by sympathizing with their current belief.

Interesting, I hadn't seen that "double reverse" but it could happen, IMHO.

The worrisome message is there, but it's actually been put to use to subvert itself.
If it works, more the better. Cool.

Cheers,

Dave

Pup
18th June 2011, 04:56 AM
I submit that the charm and the tag line, "But I also believe in Stacking the Deck," does exactly that. The presence of this line, will, for most people, have exactly the opposite effect of the one that SG is worried about. Instead of reinforcing the popular misconception which it represents, it will actually anchor the ad's core message--it's opposite--in the minds of those who already hold that misconception, by sympathizing with their current belief.

The worrisome message is there, but it's actually been put to use to subvert itself.

I think that's a pretty fair assessment. What it depends on is the average viewer identifying with good luck charms and other woo, and thinking they're a warm, fuzzy, humanizing thing, rather than thinking they're an annoying sign of a frustratingly illogical and close-minded person.

The vast majority of people are going to see woo as warm and fuzzy, and the few people who don't... well, too bad, the ad's not meant for them.

Now, where the problem comes is if that matters. To many people, it doesn't, because they actively agree with the stereotype. Others may not care one way or the other, because they're so used to the message that woo is sweet, that it just seems a standard cliche.

It only matters to people who actively dislike the stereotype and wish it would change, but they're in the extreme minority. Personally, I lean that way, because I'm tired of woos getting all the sweetness and sympathy in the stereotypes, while scientists and atheists are portrayed as the cold, mean bad guys.

In real life, I don't want a nurse or doctor who thinks they can stack the deck by using my (or their) delusions. I hire them to provide accurate information about my health to overcome the biases, lies and personal agendas of uneducated people who are always too ready with free opinions.

But the ad's not for people like me.

It reminds me of a KFC ad aimed for an Australian (or maybe New Zealand?) market, showing a white sports fan with a bucket of KFC chicken, surrounded by black fans for the other team, who are cheering and being wild and rowdy. The white guy passes around his fried chicken, and they all eat it together and settle down. Totally inoffensive and cute for Australians, apparently, but when it hit the American market via Youtube, some Americans got angry over the stereotype that black people are savage but you can use their love of fried chicken to tame them.

If "everybody knows" a stereotype is true (sports fans are rowdy; people like fried chicken), using it in an ad is unremarkable. It's only offensive if the stereotype happens to be one you've been actively fighting against. In the case of the nursing ad, "everybody knows" woo is warm and fuzzy, so the ad works for the vast majority of people, and that's surely what J&J wanted.

eijah
18th June 2011, 08:33 AM
I didn't take it to mean that the nurse believes in superstition, but when she noticed the four leaf clover she realized that the patient may be a believer. She puts it in his hand for his reassurance, not because she is superstitious. The ad is basically saying that compassion is an important part of nursing in addition to science.

I think this ad is a trivial thing to go on a rampage about. If Johnson & Johnson were marketing a four leaf clover for the enhanced treatment of ER patients, yes...I'll stand with you. But this? Meh.

"Amen". She discovered an item that was consistent with her patient's cognitive paradigm, one that might work for him psychologically. And she did something that could not hurt him. OTOH, if she had given him the token and not given him medical care, that would be a huge equine of a different hue. What she did was very meaningful to him and very humane. Thank goodness that there are such nurses. I've had a few who have made all the difference in the world. As for your outrage, I hope no one ever gives such a token to you if and when you are in need of medical care.

Monketey Ghost
18th June 2011, 08:41 AM
"Amen". She discovered an item that was consistent with her patient's cognitive paradigm, one that might work for him psychologically. And she did something that could not hurt him. OTOH, if she had given him the token and not given him medical care, that would be a huge equine of a different hue. What she did was very meaningful to him and very humane. Thank goodness that there are such nurses. I've had a few who have made all the difference in the world. As for your outrage, I hope no one ever gives such a token to you if and when you are in need of medical care.


If you think it has value, isn't the hilited portion of your post rather inhumane?

You don't think well of morphine... I hope nobody ever gives it to you should you be in pain!

...sounds classy.

fls
18th June 2011, 02:21 PM
I think that's a pretty fair assessment. What it depends on is the average viewer identifying with good luck charms and other woo, and thinking they're a warm, fuzzy, humanizing thing, rather than thinking they're an annoying sign of a frustratingly illogical and close-minded person.

...

If "everybody knows" a stereotype is true (sports fans are rowdy; people like fried chicken), using it in an ad is unremarkable. It's only offensive if the stereotype happens to be one you've been actively fighting against. In the case of the nursing ad, "everybody knows" woo is warm and fuzzy, so the ad works for the vast majority of people, and that's surely what J&J wanted.

That was well said. I think that's where I'm at, as well. Some people who have had to deal with stereotypes (or other relevant issues) which are foreign to me shared their experiences in a way which was compelling. And it allowed me to see why something which appeared innocuous to me gained such importance to them. And, of course, I have the perspective of my own set of issues I actively fight against. It makes me very reluctant to criticize someone when I'm in a position of ignorance and unfamiliarity.

Linda

CaveDave
18th June 2011, 04:35 PM
I think that's a pretty fair assessment. What it depends on is the average viewer identifying with good luck charms and other woo, and thinking they're a warm, fuzzy, humanizing thing, rather than thinking they're an annoying sign of a frustratingly illogical and close-minded person.

The vast majority of people are going to see woo as warm and fuzzy, and the few people who don't... well, too bad, the ad's not meant for them.

Now, where the problem comes is if that matters. To many people, it doesn't, because they actively agree with the stereotype. Others may not care one way or the other, because they're so used to the message that woo is sweet, that it just seems a standard cliche.

It only matters to people who actively dislike the stereotype and wish it would change, but they're in the extreme minority. Personally, I lean that way, because I'm tired of woos getting all the sweetness and sympathy in the stereotypes, while scientists and atheists are portrayed as the cold, mean bad guys.

In real life, I don't want a nurse or doctor who thinks they can stack the deck by using my (or their) delusions. I hire them to provide accurate information about my health to overcome the biases, lies and personal agendas of uneducated people who are always too ready with free opinions.

But the ad's not for people like me.

It reminds me of a KFC ad aimed for an Australian (or maybe New Zealand?) market, showing a white sports fan with a bucket of KFC chicken, surrounded by black fans for the other team, who are cheering and being wild and rowdy. The white guy passes around his fried chicken, and they all eat it together and settle down. Totally inoffensive and cute for Australians, apparently, but when it hit the American market via Youtube, some Americans got angry over the stereotype that black people are savage but you can use their love of fried chicken to tame them.

If "everybody knows" a stereotype is true (sports fans are rowdy; people like fried chicken), using it in an ad is unremarkable. It's only offensive if the stereotype happens to be one you've been actively fighting against. In the case of the nursing ad, "everybody knows" woo is warm and fuzzy, so the ad works for the vast majority of people, and that's surely what J&J wanted.

Good thoughts.

"Amen". She discovered an item that was consistent with her patient's cognitive paradigm, one that might work for him psychologically. And she did something that could not hurt him. OTOH, if she had given him the token and not given him medical care, that would be a huge equine of a different hue. What she did was very meaningful to him and very humane. Thank goodness that there are such nurses. I've had a few who have made all the difference in the world. As for your outrage, I hope no one ever gives such a token to you if and when you are in need of medical care.
YEP.

That was well said. I think that's where I'm at, as well. Some people who have had to deal with stereotypes (or other relevant issues) which are foreign to me shared their experiences in a way which was compelling. And it allowed me to see why something which appeared innocuous to me gained such importance to them. And, of course, I have the perspective of my own set of issues I actively fight against. It makes me very reluctant to criticize someone when I'm in a position of ignorance and unfamiliarity.

Linda

Well said, too, Linda.

Dave

Zelenius
19th June 2011, 09:06 AM
This ad is RACIST!

As an American of Irish heritage, I find it deeply offensive.

I agree, but I think the ad is racist because they are showing a black nurse, rather than a white nurse. They are implying that black nurses are more superstitious than white nurses. I am deeply offended by this. Maybe it wasn't intentional, but it is implied by the ad's use of a black nurse.

Worse yet, after re-watching it several times, the ad comes across as sexist too, since not only is the nurse black, but is also female. This implies women are more superstitious than men. Again, maybe this wasn't intentional(and I realize the overwhelming majority of nurses are female), but it is still obvious, even more obvious than pushing the idea that nurses are superstitious and that superstition is wonderful in hospitals.

If you are really opposed to racism and sexism, then you should have been very offended by this ad(like I was). If you're not, then....

I'll have to write another email to J&J to give them a piece of my mind.