No more homework for students in LA...

[OnlyTellsTruths]

...basically.

L.A. Unified's new homework policy gives students a break (http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-homework-20110627,0,6343074.story)

The nation's second-largest school system has decided to give students like these a break. A new policy decrees that homework can count for only 10% of a student's grade.

So, as far as I understand, you can just not do your homework, ever, and still theoretically get a B+ (or whatever 90% is in each school).

Most students will probably see the law in that same light. (Even though, of course, not doing homework will affect their test grades negatively.)

Here is a related thread (from 7 years ago, mind you):

The Myth of Too Much Homework (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=10894)

...and a more recent thread with lots of homework "discussion":

Parents doing their kids' homework (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=201994)

[rjh01]

Put it this way. I think the most you can do work using mostly your brain is about eight hours a day. Students spend most of that at school so there is not much left over for homework.

[Aepervius]

I will not reanimate the thread (2003...) but I distinctely remember having not much homework in average during primary school, EXCEPT that we had spike of rote learning (poesy mostly, historical date etc... Rote learning) which made the homework for that week go long into the night.

So if you look at the average, I agree, if you *get it* immediately at school (do not need to go voer it again at home) you probably have less than 1 hour homework. But there will be spike, and this assume you do not go over what you had in the day again at home. Which is definitively needed in some case.

PS: you are not supposed to "learn" it immediately at school, you are supposed to be taught at school to understand it, and retain/learn it at home. So the folk which have not much homework, EITHER are very good at learning immediately what they are given at school (I could do it, but seeing how many the next day did not remember the lessons from the previous day/week, I hold that for a doubtful proposal for the average) or the one doing the calculation do not count the learning part as homework. One has to wonder why. Maybe they have missed that.

[Jack Astor]

I remember reading some news story not long ago where a study was conducted that determined homework was of marginal benefit, and could actually create some other problems for students. Students with more homework tended to be fatigued, and weren't able to retain as much during the day, for example. I just found this one (http://today.duke.edu/2006/03/homework.html) from Duke, showing the opposite.

Personally I don't see the big deal. I never did my homework, and I became....oh, well, never mind.

[OnlyTellsTruths]

Put it this way. I think the most you can do work using mostly your brain is about eight hours a day. Students spend most of that at school so there is not much left over for homework.

I hope you mean "..the most work you can do efficiently..." because I for one did more than that when I was in school. I guess one does feel worn out after 8 hours of "brain work".

[Lukraak_Sisser]

The school I went to never had our homework as part of our grades directly.
Sure, our teachers sometimes marked it if you didn't do it, or told us off, but if you really didn't need to do your homework and still were able to pass your tests no harm done.
If you did need to do your homework to be able to pass your tests you learned quickly enough to do so then.

[Mr. Purple]

I am not really "making" this argument, just throwing it out there for discussion:

The state shouldn't get to decide what your children do when not in school.

My ma used to make this argument, but I think she just didn't like being told what to do on any level. Can anyone make this case? To me, if you are already mandating school attendance, then what is systemically different from mandating homework?

[Complexity]

I don't think they state should make kids study; their parents should, up to a point.

It increasingly becomes a kid's responsibility, as s/he gets older, to take advantage of the educational opportunities that life offers. People sort themselves out, I'm afraid. It is never too late to learn.

That said, shame on the city and the parents in the city for allowing such a bad decision to stand.

[MattusMaximus]

If homework is used as busy work, it does little good and can actually be counterproductive.

However, if there is a useful point to homework, it is vital. Homework of this nature is needed to reinforce the day's lessons, especially if the lessons to follow build off the earlier ones (such as in physics).

The "no to homework" movement is just plain stupid, because it goes too far in one direction without appreciating the nuances of the problem. The main issue is that too many teachers use homework as busy work, not that there is homework at all.

Students who don't want to do any homework had better get used to saying "Do you want fries with that?"

[Lisa Simpson]

My son has ridiculous amounts of homework. There are days when he gets home from school at 3 pm and immediately starts on homework that will keep him working til midnight. Seems overboard to me.

[MattusMaximus]

I am not really "making" this argument, just throwing it out there for discussion:

The state shouldn't get to decide what your children do when not in school.

My ma used to make this argument, but I think she just didn't like being told what to do on any level. Can anyone make this case? To me, if you are already mandating school attendance, then what is systemically different from mandating homework?

The kids don't have to do their homework if they don't want to... they don't have to work on their lab reports if they don't want to... they don't have to study for the exams outside of school if they don't want to... hell, they don't have to do anything they don't want to do.

... including pass my class or get a good, well paying and respectable job after college.

The notion that you're going to rise to the top of the heap without putting in extra effort (yes, outside of school) is facile and unrealistic. That's because if you want to slack off, there's always someone else who is willing to put in the extra effort. And between you, guess who is going to get the better grade/job?

That's my response.

[MattusMaximus]

My son has ridiculous amounts of homework. There are days when he gets home from school at 3 pm and immediately starts on homework that will keep him working til midnight. Seems overboard to me.

The questions to ask are these: is it just busy work, or is there a legitimate point to it?

Also, how old is your son? What grade is he in?

Also, is he an honors/AP student?

Also, what classes is he taking? Is his course load much heavier compared to the average student?

Also, what sort of extra-curricular activities is he doing, if any?

I have noticed that an aspect of the "too much homework" movement comes from parents who want to have their kids take a ton of AP/honors levels courses yet not have to do much work outside of school. Sorry, but if you load up your schedule with a bunch of those kinds of classes, you had better be prepared for the extra work. If you're having a hard time keeping up, drop something, and free up time in your day to handle it.

I'm not saying that's what is happening to you and your kid, LS, because I honestly don't know. I'm just saying that these are factors to consider when discussing this topic.

[Wuglife]

I think its a great idea, personally. I think homework is an unfair strain to some students, some of whom may live in extreme poverty and have no electricity, or whom may be in an abusive household, etc. Furthermore, I don't believe I learned much of anything by doing homework assignments in public school.

I don't think homework is that important really. I think 7+ hours a day is enough time for a student to devote to learning, if the teaching environment is good and the school is a productive, safe place.

[Lisa Simpson]

My son is 15 and will be a Junior in HS in Sept.

Yes, he's in Honors/AP classes (got a 4 on AP Bio test and a 5 on AP World History test)

He doesn't do extra-curricular activities because he doesn't have time (except for the activities mandated by the magnet program he's in).

Yes, I understand he's in a difficult, intensive program. OTOH, my son in college is taking difficult classes and doesn't have anywhere near that workload. Nor does my husband (a senior Linux engineer). They are not expected to work from 7 am til midnight 3, 4 or 5 days a week.

[dtugg]

I never spent much time doing homework. Mostly just essays and reading. Teachers usually left it up to us if we wanted to spend extra time to understand the material. I rarely needed to. Some others students did and if they didn't take that time, well their grades would reflect that.

[sadhatter]

I remember reading some news story not long ago where a study was conducted that determined homework was of marginal benefit, and could actually create some other problems for students. Students with more homework tended to be fatigued, and weren't able to retain as much during the day, for example. I just found this one (http://today.duke.edu/2006/03/homework.html) from Duke, showing the opposite.

Personally I don't see the big deal. I never did my homework, and I became....oh, well, never mind.

As a kid i had a huge issue with this.

I am not trying to claim being some kind of genius, just a bit of a smart person, with very good reading comprehension. Like many others.

My problem was, we would go through the lesson, i would get it, and honestly after the 8 hour school day ( as a very fat kid, this was hell enough. Unfortunately i didn't turn into my pic till grade 11 or so.) not see the point in writing down, in my handwriting no one could read ( went through writing therapy for 8 years, didn't do a darn thing. Only recently has my writing became legible enough for your average joe to read. Wierd thing is , any other task requiring small motor skills, i am pretty good at, electronics repair, magic, knife throwing, etc.) , the things that i had learned. I knew them, and i did all projects and tests with a very high level of efficiency.

This attitude was strengthened by 2 things.

1. At one point, around grade 5 , i just started writing almost anything that would make some kind of grammatical sense 15 minutes or so before class. Teachers didn't want to spend the time to sit down and read it, so i was counted as doing the homework.

2. During my later school years ( grade 8 plus) it shifted to a " if you tried" policy, meaning that , there was no mark, just a 100% or 0% depending on if you had something written down that seemed like an answer. This made me feel defeated as i started doing the homework so i could seem like as good of a student as i was ( had c's and b's and the odd d , due to the weight given to homework. Contrasting this with my college experience, in which i have a 87% average. ) , but anyone who put anything, regardless of being right was given the same mark as myself.

So if it was just marks for marks sake, why would i bother? Some may say, why not continue to write down anything, but even to this day, i cannot bring myself to be able to justify that. I wasn't a lazy kid, i had many extra circular activities, and events i organized ( from punk shows to charity events.) , i just couldn't see the point in wasting the effort to get the same mark as the guy who smoked a joint and wrote the funniest answers he could think of.

My hero in this entire situation was a geography teacher that in his final year gave a big ol **** you to the entire premise. He arbitrarily gave the homework grades based on the persons in class performance , troublemaker, crappy student? You could be guaranteed he wouldn't see the page. Abuse of power for sure, but when the system is arbitrary and silly, why not?

[Beerina]

...basically.

L.A. Unified's new homework policy gives students a break (http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-homework-20110627,0,6343074.story)



So, as far as I understand, you can just not do your homework, ever, and still theoretically get a B+ (or whatever 90% is in each school).

Most students will probably see the law in that same light. (Even though, of course, not doing homework will affect their test grades negatively.)

I'm willing to bet students who skip homework won't be getting 100% of everything else. So that B+ is a theoretical result :dl:


Now having said that, from observing my own kids on the sly (out of the house now) they liked to trade around homework answers anyway, so they can struggle on tests even though they ace homework.

It's possible this development is in response to that. 10% of the grade doesn't mean light on the homework as hours go.

[sadhatter]

My son is 15 and will be a Junior in HS in Sept.

Yes, he's in Honors/AP classes (got a 4 on AP Bio test and a 5 on AP World History test)

He doesn't do extra-curricular activities because he doesn't have time (except for the activities mandated by the magnet program he's in).

Yes, I understand he's in a difficult, intensive program. OTOH, my son in college is taking difficult classes and doesn't have anywhere near that workload. Nor does my husband (a senior Linux engineer). They are not expected to work from 7 am til midnight 3, 4 or 5 days a week.

I am currently in college , well not right now, but you get what i mean ( shaving 2 years off university, by taking pharmacy tech locally, then progressing to pharmacist.) , and getting an A average ( including the fact i got an undeserved c, but that is another rant.). I would say, per night i have maybe an hour of homework ( not including studying, because i save that for days when i can take a few hours, but even then no where near 3 pm till midnight.) per night , your child seems to be getting a really ****** deal here.

Then again, some people just have a hard time with the format of homework. A fellow in my class who is achieving an A+ average, does the same work, with the same amount of studying, but is in a situation similar to your son, coming into school with little to no sleep, after having to spend 7-9 hours nightly to keep up with the workload. We are both of similar ability and intellect, but he simply is not as good at streamlining the process of homework. ( btw, 90% an B+ in America? That is nuts, 85 or so is an a- here. )

[dtugg]

Where I went to school, 90 or above is an A, 80-89 is B, 70-79 is a C, 60-69 is a D, and below 60 is an F. Pluses or minus don't really matter for anything. A 90 gets you 4 points (or 5 if it is an AP/Honors class) just the same as a 100.

[fuelair]

My son has ridiculous amounts of homework. There are days when he gets home from school at 3 pm and immediately starts on homework that will keep him working til midnight. Seems overboard to me.

Private (likely) or public(less likely) unless he is taking 2 or more AP classes, three or more Honors classes or a combination of that he has way too much homework. Ridiculous is different if you are in AP and need to pass the AP test for the full credit, savings off a college course.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
No relation to the above, just a point some new teachers miss.


This is for all AP teachers - if you are forced to teach AP or choose to on your own and you are forced to take anyone who applies you will likely have less than half your students take/pass the test. As long you atay in your school (possibly your district, BUT) you are fine - but your chances of getting a job in a better school/district where entry to AP requires thorough vetting and the AP tests are typically passed by 75% +
of the students are slim to none - especially if you want to teach AP.

Note: I am in an area where parents can have their kids placed in Honors or AP just by pushing a little. The results are as I expect (experience does that). My favorite was one of the schools locally who had 202 or 3 of it's AP students take the AP tests appropriate to their subject. 2 passed. Nice kids mostly (the one's I knew) but not AP or what AP is designed for.

[tesscaline]

I'm willing to bet students who skip homework won't be getting 100% of everything else. So that B+ is a theoretical result :dl:


Now having said that, from observing my own kids on the sly (out of the house now) they liked to trade around homework answers anyway, so they can struggle on tests even though they ace homework.

It's possible this development is in response to that. 10% of the grade doesn't mean light on the homework as hours go.
I'll take that bet.

I did skip as much homework as I could possibly get away with (without impacting my grades too badly), and I did get A's on the vast majority of everything else (barring the stupid mistake here or there). In fact, if it weren't for all that homework, I would have had straight A's in all my classes through high school.

I had many other classmates who were in the same boat.

I also had many other classmates who were not, and needed the homework to be able to understand the in-class material.

Lesson: Assumptions based on massive generalization of a speculative and biased sample size are a bad idea, Beerina. Didn't you learn that in high school? I sure did. And I didn't need to do the homework for it to sink in, either.

[fuelair]

My son is 15 and will be a Junior in HS in Sept.

Yes, he's in Honors/AP classes (got a 4 on AP Bio test and a 5 on AP World History test)

He doesn't do extra-curricular activities because he doesn't have time (except for the activities mandated by the magnet program he's in).

Yes, I understand he's in a difficult, intensive program. OTOH, my son in college is taking difficult classes and doesn't have anywhere near that workload. Nor does my husband (a senior Linux engineer). They are not expected to work from 7 am til midnight 3, 4 or 5 days a week.

I do not know how to put this, but given his high score on AP World History and very good score on AP Bio plus what he was doing in Honors (you did not list but for AP the World History, Chem and Physics (not sure if a specific or generally)are the most difficult as is the prep (the course) for them) I am not surprised at all assuming this was not every night, but was fairly frequent.

Also, I know the World History (one of my fellow teachers is cool and teaches that) has large quantities of reading, research and writing that would certainly require many outside hours........

[dropzone]

EXCEPT that we had spike of rote learning (poesy mostly..."The boy stood on the burning deck..."

"Listen my children and you will hear,
Of the midnight ride of Paul Revere..."

"By the shores of Gitche Gumee,
By the shining Big-Sea-Water,
Stood the wigwam of Nokomis,
Daughter of the Moon, Nokomis..."

T'was a different time. :(

[Almo]

You can't learn to do math and physics without doing math and physics. There's just not enough time in the day to be given lectures on how to do it, and still have time to practice to learn HOW to do it without doing homework.

[Lisa Simpson]

No relation to the above, just a point some new teachers miss.


This is for all AP teachers - if you are forced to teach AP or choose to on your own and you are forced to take anyone who applies you will likely have less than half your students take/pass the test. As long you atay in your school (possibly your district, BUT) you are fine - but your chances of getting a job in a better school/district where entry to AP requires thorough vetting and the AP tests are typically passed by 75% +
of the students are slim to none - especially if you want to teach AP.

Note: I am in an area where parents can have their kids placed in Honors or AP just by pushing a little. The results are as I expect (experience does that). My favorite was one of the schools locally who had 202 or 3 of it's AP students take the AP tests appropriate to their subject. 2 passed. Nice kids mostly (the one's I knew) but not AP or what AP is designed for.

As an aside, my son's high school was recently re-accredited by the Western Association of Schools and Colleges. Their only complaint is that not enough Hispanic students are in AP classes (the school's demographics are 40% Hispanic, 40% Asian, 12% Caucasian, 8% Other). So starting in September, a student no longer needs prior approval to take an AP class. Personally, I don't see how this is going to help the Hispanic students at the school.

[Halfcentaur]

I avoided homework my entire life, and never did daily in class assignments from 3rd to 9th grade either for the most part. I did however get good test scores based on my own self acquired knowledge, and my teachers thought I was intelligent, so I was always floated through the system.

High school ended this, I learned how to physically ditch school. I eventually was told to drop out of school my second freshman year, and I did for 3 and a half years. When I was 18 I decided to go back to high school and apply myself more. I still managed to avoid home work for the most part while working at my own pace eventually in a special alternative night school where I completed 4 years of high school in a year and a half.
I graduated with a 4.0, and managed to avoid homework for the vast majority of my life.

I'm lucky to have had such tolerant teachers.

[fuelair]

"The boy stood on the burning deck..."

"Listen my children and you will hear,
Of the midnight ride of Paul Revere..."

"By the shores of Gitche Gumee,
By the shining Big-Sea-Water,
Stood the wigwam of Nokomis,
Daughter of the Moon, Nokomis..."

T'was a different time. :(Mine too (your's sounds like 20's-40's)
"Whan that Aprille wythe her shoures soothe
The drougcht of Marche, hath perced to the roote
and bathed evry veyne in swiche liquour..." (Mine - late '50s, early 60s)
For particularists - we did not have to write it out, so I do not guarantee the spelling. The meaning (geo/bio fan): In Chaucer's time, March was a bit dry, but April brought a lot of rain, which flowed to the roots of the plants - and they lapped it up like best whiskey.:D

[fuelair]

As an aside, my son's high school was recently re-accredited by the Western Association of Schools and Colleges. Their only complaint is that not enough Hispanic students are in AP classes (the school's demographics are 40% Hispanic, 40% Asian, 12% Caucasian, 8% Other). So starting in September, a student no longer needs prior approval to take an AP class. Personally, I don't see how this is going to help the Hispanic students at the school.

For those willing to work (and many are: my wife and I work, because we like the kids - with the lovely woman who does the migrant worker children program at our school) it might well - some need a push!!. We had the pleasure of attending the program's annual award/scholarship banquet this year and the largest % of winners were from our school!!) it may be a big step up. For those not willing to push themselves it will be a drag on the class. Not so good on that end.

May I officially suspect that the Asian students make up app. 55-70% of the AP and the Hispanic under 10%. I can justify my "guess".:)

[bozman]

To be fair, most kids in LA Unified probably aren't very smart to begin with. :D

[Lisa Simpson]

I know there was one Hispanic girl in his AP World History class, but I think she was it. My son says roll call usually goes:

Ly, Ly, Ly, Ly, Nguyen, Nguyen, Nguyen, Nguyen, Nguyen, Nguyen, Nguyen, Pham, Pham, Pham, Phan, Phan, Phan, Phan, Powers, Tran, Tran, Tran, Troung, Troung. He doesn't really start paying attention until all the Nguyens are done.

[MattusMaximus]

My son is 15 and will be a Junior in HS in Sept.

Yes, he's in Honors/AP classes (got a 4 on AP Bio test and a 5 on AP World History test)

And how many AP/honors courses is he taking currently? What are those courses?

He doesn't do extra-curricular activities because he doesn't have time (except for the activities mandated by the magnet program he's in).

So he's enrolled in AP/honors courses, in a high-powered magnet school (they are designed to be high powered), and he has mandated activities outside of class due to the nature of the program in which he's enrolled. Do I have that all right?

And you're complaining he can't handle the workload? Have you considered the possibility that he's doing too much or that perhaps he shouldn't be in a magnet school program? Just because someone gets into a program doesn't mean they will necessarily be able to complete that program, you know. Just look at the drop out rates for various programs like engineering or medical school.

Yes, I understand he's in a difficult, intensive program. OTOH, my son in college is taking difficult classes and doesn't have anywhere near that workload. Nor does my husband (a senior Linux engineer). They are not expected to work from 7 am til midnight 3, 4 or 5 days a week.

Not to seem like an ogre, but as the saying goes: it takes more than caring to be a doctor. Just because your husband and one son can handle high pressure jobs/courseloads doesn't mean your other kid can handle it. Perhaps your younger son needs to take fewer difficult classes, so that he can focus his efforts more efficiently? Perhaps he should try going to a public school with less rigorous standards than those at a magnet school? I've seen far too many parents make the mistake of the genetic fallacy, which you seem to be doing here, and demand that their kid take a bunch of difficult courses, yet they start to complain (about the classes or the teacher!) when the kid simply isn't up to snuff. Of course, in too many cases the last thing parents want to even consider is that their kid just doesn't have what it takes to successfully complete such a difficult program.

Remember, not all kids are equal - not even within the same family.

[DarthAqueous]

I teach high school English. It seems to me that an ideal way to have better in class discussions and encourage more critical thinking would be to have students read texts at home rather than take up class time doing so. If they come in to class having read the text (always a big "if," of course - but leaving that aside for the moment), then we can spend valuable class time discussing it. That's how most of the college classes I've taken have worked (I suppose I should mention I mostly teach seniors). Admittedly, this isn't really assigning homework that's graded per se (although they could have some written work to go along with the reading), but it certainly is homework.

Of course, in the school where I teach I only have class sets of textbooks, so the students do end up spending time in class reading, but that's a whole other issue...

Chad Walker

[ImaginalDisc]

To be fair, most kids in LA Unified probably aren't very smart to begin with. :D

I know you're joking, but the attitude that students are dumb because of which uterus they fell out of or what zipcode they're in is persistent and inexcusable.

[bozman]

I know you're joking, but the attitude that students are dumb because of which uterus they fell out of or what zipcode they're in is persistent and inexcusable.

I disagree, I lived in L.A. for many years. I stand by my statement. And being a product of L.A. Unified, I would point to myself as evidence... Yes, of course I was joking. If you were offended by something that silly, then I don't know what to tell you.

Here's the part of the article that makes me wonder:

The L.A. approach is intended to account for the myriad urban problems facing the district's mostly low-income, minority population. It's also aimed at supporting L.A. Unified's increasing focus on boosting measureable academic achievement.

I agree that children who come from poverty stricken families probably do have a much harder time achieving in school. I think providing extra help that might be tailored to a student's particular needs is also a good idea, I just wonder how much of this is aimed at "raising" the overall student achievement levels in L.A. schools. I'm pretty sure L.A. Unified ranks pretty low in terms of overall academics and student achievement, this seems like a way to lower the bar so that the numbers go up.

[fuelair]

I know there was one Hispanic girl in his AP World History class, but I think she was it. My son says roll call usually goes:

Ly, Ly, Ly, Ly, Nguyen, Nguyen, Nguyen, Nguyen, Nguyen, Nguyen, Nguyen, Pham, Pham, Pham, Phan, Phan, Phan, Phan, Powers, Tran, Tran, Tran, Troung, Troung. He doesn't really start paying attention until all the Nguyens are done. If they are pronouncing the Vietnamese names correctly - and I assume they are - your last sentence is a good (I"m warped that way) joke !!!:D:D

[Checkmite]

I am 100% for this initiative. I think it's a great idea.