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TFian
8th July 2011, 08:58 PM
As the Grand Archdruid of the Ancient Order of Druids in America, John Michael Greer says,

As the saying goes, there are no atheists in foxholes, and there tend to be very few atheists in collapsing civilizations a lack of interest in spirituality is a luxury mostly found in times of prosperity and social stability. The inner resources provided by an active spiritual life are among the resources Id encourage people to have on hand in advance of the next wave of crises.

Source (http://transitionvoice.com/2010/11/greer-finds-power-in-nature-spirituality/)

Given this piece of reality, can atheism truly be societal productive, and if not, should we not discourage it's proliferation and encourage a return to spirituality instead?

Resume
8th July 2011, 09:01 PM
As the Grand Archdruid of the Ancient Order of Druids in America, John Michael Greer says,



Source (http://transitionvoice.com/2010/11/greer-finds-power-in-nature-spirituality/)

Given this piece of reality, can atheism truly be societal productive, and if not, should we not discourage it's proliferation and encourage a return to spirituality instead?

No. Yes. No.

Foster Zygote
8th July 2011, 09:02 PM
As the Grand Archdruid of the Ancient Order of Druids in America, John Michael Greer says,



Source (http://transitionvoice.com/2010/11/greer-finds-power-in-nature-spirituality/)

Given this piece of reality, can atheism truly be societal productive, and if not, should we not discourage it's proliferation and encourage a return to spirituality instead?
Reality, or opinion?

TFian
8th July 2011, 09:02 PM
Reality, or opinion?

Reality, given the facts.

Foster Zygote
8th July 2011, 09:03 PM
"...There tend to be very few atheists in collapsing civilizations..."

The irony being that this statement can be interpreted as a claim that collapsing civilizations are overrun with spirituality.

Resume
8th July 2011, 09:04 PM
Reality, given the facts.

What facts, where?

Garrette
8th July 2011, 09:05 PM
1. What are Greer's sources for his claims? I dispute them.

2. There are many atheists in foxholes, myself included as well as many others on this very forum.

3. I read your link and find much that is without merit in it, not least of which is the old chestnut of peak oil. Experts and doomsayers have been saying we have either reached or are about to reach in a few years the peak production of oil. What makes Greer right this time.

It's nonsense.

Foster Zygote
8th July 2011, 09:06 PM
Reality, given the facts.

What facts?

Lowpro
8th July 2011, 09:06 PM
Oh I see, religion only prospers when people suffer hardship.

No wonder religion fundies try to make the world harder, they're trying to expand their message!

Mudcat
8th July 2011, 09:07 PM
What facts?

The facts absent from the OP maybe?

JadeStonesFromSaturn
8th July 2011, 09:09 PM
First off, thanks TFian for the link, it confirmed exactly what I told you earlier about Greer which you seemed to deny.

Second off, Greer does have a point probably, there is a correlation between abandonment of religiosity (even if not abandonment of religion itself) and prosperity. It's why the domestic missionaries often pick the homeless and other disadvantaged, they're far more likely to accept false hope (and some material bribery in the form of "charity") than non religious or otherwise other religion affiliated middle class or otherwise successful folk. However, I have to really question his moral basis given it's quite clear he seems to hold this notion with glee, as if a return to religiosity will be profoundly great for our society...

TFian
8th July 2011, 09:10 PM
1. What are Greer's sources for his claims? I dispute them.

For which claims?

2. There are many atheists in foxholes, myself included as well as many others on this very forum.

Oh? How so?

3. I read your link and find much that is without merit in it, not least of which is the old chestnut of peak oil. Experts and doomsayers have been saying we have either reached or are about to reach in a few years the peak production of oil. What makes Greer right this time.

It's nonsense.

We've reached the peak in petroleum production in the US back in the 70s...

Kopji
8th July 2011, 09:15 PM
Wow. I find his reasoning wrong on many levels. Hard to choose.
Instead of investing in science and clear thinking that might result in new solutions and better quality of living - we are instead to invest in failed ideas that result in cycles of failure. But with spirituality we will be happy with less.

GO YE AND FAIL! the prophet calls to the wilderness

TraneWreck
8th July 2011, 09:15 PM
"...there tend to be very few atheists in collapsing civilizations..."

That's what we've been saying. The more of us there are, the less likely that society is going to collapse.

TraneWreck
8th July 2011, 09:17 PM
Oh? How so?

In the sense that he is an atheist who has actually been in a foxhole. Pretty tricky language.


There's a whole thread about it:

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=212435

Mudcat
8th July 2011, 09:20 PM
First off, thanks TFian for the link, it confirmed exactly what I told you earlier about Greer which you seemed to deny. What else can you expect from someone who butchers Shakespeare in their signature?

Snip rest of the post, which I happen to agree withI think it's no accident that tobacco companies happen to target the same groups of people as religious institutes do (the uneducated, the homeless, the desperate, etc).

JadeStonesFromSaturn
8th July 2011, 09:24 PM
What else can you expect from someone who butchers Shakespeare in their signature?

Good point...

I think it's no accident that tobacco companies happen to target the same groups of people as religious groups (the uneducated, the homeless, the desperate, etc).

It's all about taking advantage of the weak and powerless. Religions have had that game mastered for millennia. Me thinks Greer think his "nature spirituality" will become quite the fad once his worldview of a collapse of industrial civilization happens. Pretty telling.

Robin
8th July 2011, 09:34 PM
Reality, given the facts.
What facts? All we have is a claim by some guy.

Do you think it is true just because he says so?

ynot
8th July 2011, 09:37 PM
If foxholes turn all Atheists in to Theists why don't Theists make foxholes instead of churches to convert Atheists?

bozman
8th July 2011, 09:37 PM
http://www.militaryatheists.org/expaif.html

http://ffrf.org/outreach/atheists-in-foxholes/

http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/army-group-says-there-are-atheists-foxho

There are some atheists in foxholes right there.

Robin
8th July 2011, 09:38 PM
Oh? How so?

Hmm.. fol-de-rol methinks.

Mudcat
8th July 2011, 09:40 PM
It's all about taking advantage of the weak and powerless. Indeed, and it's quite stomach churning if you ask me.

Religions have had that game mastered for millennia. Me thinks Greer think his "nature spirituality" will become quite the fad once his worldview of a collapse of industrial civilization happens.If it were to happen that way it would be another religious war as all the religions turn on each other, fight each other for new members, forcibly convert all they can of their competitors and wipe out the rest.

JadeStonesFromSaturn
8th July 2011, 09:44 PM
If it were to happen that way it would be another religious war as all the religions turn on each other, fight each other for new members, forcibly convert all they can of their competitors and wipe out the rest.

That's what makes me laugh. This hypothetical "return" to spirituality won't be the liberal tolerant society that we've grown accustomed to in the West. It's not going to be some interfaith society where differences of religion, race, nationality, sexuality, gender, etc. are respected. It's one of inter religious warfare, with the winner throwing the loser religions and demonized minorities into the funerary pyres, quite literally.

Garrette
8th July 2011, 09:46 PM
For which claims? Any of them.


Oh? How so? Both literally and metaphorically. Greer uses it merely as a metaphor, so you can't legitimately complain that I do so, too. I'm atheist. I've been in combat. I didn't pray or even begin to be tempted to believe in a deity. There are many others in the same vein here.


We've reached the peak in petroleum production in the US back in the 70s...Put your goalposts back, please. Greer wasn't referencing peak US production.

bozman
8th July 2011, 09:47 PM
That's what makes me laugh. This hypothetical "return" to spirituality won't be the liberal tolerant society that we've grown accustomed to in the West. It's not going to be some interfaith society where differences of religion, race, nationality, sexuality, gender, etc. are respected. It's one of inter religious warfare, with the winner throwing the loser religions and demonized minorities into the funerary pyres, quite literally.


No, they would never do that. Those were, uhhh, other religions and churches.

JadeStonesFromSaturn
8th July 2011, 09:52 PM
No, they would never do that. Those were, uhhh, other religions and churches.

They all do it though. Even what many consider to be "peaceful" religions have some history of doing so, such as Buddhism.

Mudcat
8th July 2011, 09:54 PM
They all do it though. Even what many consider to be "peaceful" religions have some history of doing so, such as Buddhism.
I think he forgot to put the sarcasm tags on his post JadeStone.

JadeStonesFromSaturn
8th July 2011, 09:55 PM
I think he forgot to put the sarcasm tags on his post JadeStone.

Oh, my bad! :o

Skeptic Ginger
8th July 2011, 09:55 PM
Oh my word! Given this reality? :rolleyes:

fuelair
8th July 2011, 09:58 PM
As the Grand Archdruid of the Ancient Order of Druids in America, John Michael Greer says,



Source (http://transitionvoice.com/2010/11/greer-finds-power-in-nature-spirituality/)

Given this piece of reality, can atheism truly be societal productive, and if not, should we not discourage it's proliferation and encourage a return to spirituality instead?Druids are just as full of crap as any other religion. Doesn't mean I hate or even dislike them, but their opinions on certain areas of science and on political situations do not tend to influence me. Also, you do, I hope, realize that this person is saying that we should all fake believing in ancient, mostly harmful gods because times are tough (I hope you don't think he is saying anything supportive of the one the US mostly gets all hot and bothered about).

bozman
8th July 2011, 10:00 PM
They all do it though. Even what many consider to be "peaceful" religions have some history of doing so, such as Buddhism.

Yeah, you're right. I was just giving the typical fundie response to the statement. ;)

Sorry, I sometimes forget that sarcasm doesn't always convey through the internet.

JadeStonesFromSaturn
8th July 2011, 10:10 PM
Also, I find the dichotomy Greer is creating between Atheism and Spirituality frivolous. Spirituality is a vague term, and it's not likely his definition is an exclusive one.

Sam Harris, (in)famous atheist author, proclaims to be quite "spiritual" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sam_Harris_%28author%29#Spirituality

Mudcat
8th July 2011, 10:17 PM
Yeah, you're right. I was just giving the typical fundie response to the statement. ;)

Sorry, I sometimes forget that sarcasm doesn't always convey through the internet.

That's what the :sarcasm: tag is for :cool:

bozman
8th July 2011, 10:28 PM
That's what the :sarcasm: tag is for :cool:

A sarcasm... tag? :jaw-dropp

Craig4
8th July 2011, 10:32 PM
The OP in incorrect. I am an atheist and I have served in combat to include taking fire. I have never prayed nor have I questioned my atheism.

bozman
8th July 2011, 10:35 PM
The OP in incorrect. I am an atheist and I have served in combat to include taking fire. I have never prayed nor have I questioned my atheism.

Funny, according to the OP, you cannot possibly exist.

JadeStonesFromSaturn
8th July 2011, 10:37 PM
Funny, according to the OP, you cannot possibly exist.

To be fair, I don't think the OP is literally saying there are no atheists in the military. It's much more metaphorical than literal.

Craig4
8th July 2011, 10:39 PM
Funny, according to the OP, you cannot possibly exist.

I pinched myself and it hurt. Does that count as existing?

bozman
8th July 2011, 10:44 PM
I pinched myself and it hurt. Does that count as existing?

Hmm. Well, you never can be too sure. Better do it a few more times.

JadeStonesFromSaturn
8th July 2011, 10:44 PM
I pinched myself and it hurt. Does that count as existing?

Or you could use a more esoteric test "I hate? Therefore I am! ;)

TFian
9th July 2011, 01:50 AM
(I hope you don't think he is saying anything supportive of the one the US mostly gets all hot and bothered about).

Which gods are fake? And I know he's not talking about Christianity (I'm not a Christian).

Aepervius
9th July 2011, 01:55 AM
Which gods are fake?


All of them.

bozman
9th July 2011, 01:56 AM
All of them.

Even Thor?

TFian
9th July 2011, 01:57 AM
Any of them.

I don't have any offhand.

Both literally and metaphorically. Greer uses it merely as a metaphor, so you can't legitimately complain that I do so, too. I'm atheist. I've been in combat. I didn't pray or even begin to be tempted to believe in a deity. There are many others in the same vein here.

He didn't say that atheists are never in the military. Just that atheism is VERY rare during trouble times, like societal collapse. It's better if we invest into spirituality because atheism offers us nothing.

Put your goalposts back, please. Greer wasn't referencing peak US production.

Uhm, global oil production peaked in 2005, but regardless if it peaks in the future, once it does, industrial civilization is over.

TFian
9th July 2011, 02:01 AM
What facts? All we have is a claim by some guy.

Do you think it is true just because he says so?

Given he's an authority in his field, yes.

Aepervius
9th July 2011, 02:03 AM
He didn't say that atheists are never in the military. Just that atheism is VERY rare during trouble times, like societal collapse. It's better if we invest into spirituality because atheism offers us nothing.

I want to see EVIDENCE of this.

When was the last time a whole society collapsed, and in that society atheist suddenly "turned" to spiritualism or gods, and fall on their knee praying, which *IS* the definition of "no atheist in foxhole".

Alsmost certainly this is not what happens during a collapse, what happens is that atheist would disappear by attrition with the woo taking over as education drop in favor of get-your-next-meal survival.

And that is a big difference, and adds NOTHING to the validity of theism orn invalidity of atheism, as it only show that when rationality disappear, theism and other woo tend to take over the vaccuum left.

lionking
9th July 2011, 02:07 AM
The idiot Archdruid proves his idiocy yet again. If there was a Noble Prize for being wrong on a monumental level, Greer would win easily.

TFian
9th July 2011, 02:10 AM
The idiot Archdruid proves his idiocy yet again. If there was a Noble Prize for being wrong on a monumental level, Greer would win easily.

Explain? What do you think he's wrong about here? Religious inclination skyrockets during societal collapse.

elbe
9th July 2011, 02:29 AM
Explain? What do you think he's wrong about here? Religious inclination skyrockets during societal collapse.

So, at best, when faced with dire situations people are more likely to believe in false hopes? Could be an interesting psychological study, I guess, but what point are you trying to make? Cause I'm getting Atheists = Happy, Religious = Unhappy.

lionking
9th July 2011, 02:29 AM
Explain? What do you think he's wrong about here? Religious inclination skyrockets during societal collapse.

Good to hear. "No religion" was the highest response in the last Australian census. Monumental fail Greer.

bozman
9th July 2011, 03:05 AM
I actually read a study some years back that referenced how soldiers dying in the battlefield often call out for their mother. It's as if the stress of war and dying is so great that the mind will sometimes regress and long for the protection of the person who provided safety during the years when he needed it most.

I tend to think, on some level, that's the exact same role that god plays for most people who follow a religion like Christianity. That's where this need probably comes from. The more extreme groups like Christian or Muslim fundamentalists even act children; everything in their world tends to be "all good" or "all bad," they're often fearful of the big scary boogeyman world and believe everyone else is out to persecute them, etc.

I think another poster mentioned that institutionalized religion has always led to intolerance, violence, widespread ignorance, etc., and I agree. I'm still not clear on what the OP meant on returning to "spirituality" either. Could you maybe clarify for me?

catsmate1
9th July 2011, 03:22 AM
Reality, given the facts.
What "facts" are these? All I see is, as usual, some unsupported opinions.

Robin
9th July 2011, 03:26 AM
Given he's an authority in his field, yes.
And I suppose we have to accept that because he says so too.

But even real authorities never expect us to take their word.

They present things like studies, research, evidence.

You know ... real facts.

abaddon
9th July 2011, 03:30 AM
We've reached the peak in petroleum production in the US back in the 70s...

Followed by...

Uhm, global oil production peaked in 2005, but regardless if it peaks in the future, once it does, industrial civilization is over.

Care to explain this 30+ year span for peak oil?

TFian
9th July 2011, 03:41 AM
Followed by...



Care to explain this 30+ year span for peak oil?

Domestic peaks of oil are different than global peaks of oil. It's well accepted the US hit peak oil in the 70s, which is why we've had to import oil since then.

Belz...
9th July 2011, 04:02 AM
Given this piece of reality

He just stated it. Do you have any evidence that he is correct ? Otherwise your premise is false, and whatever conclusion you reach from it is far from certain.

Which gods are fake?

No supernatural thing exists.

Just that atheism is VERY rare during trouble times, like societal collapse. It's better if we invest into spirituality because atheism offers us nothing.

And those statements are entirely false.

Religious inclination skyrockets during societal collapse.

Ah, so your claim is that religion prays on the weak and the desperate ? How is that a good thing ?

Robin
9th July 2011, 04:16 AM
Explain? What do you think he's wrong about here? Religious inclination skyrockets during societal collapse.
And his evidence for tbis is ...?

Even if it were true, how would it lead to the conclusion that we should embrace "spirituality" whatever that might mean?

Darth Rotor
9th July 2011, 04:19 AM
I like the multiple non sequiturs

We go from atheists, foxholes, and druids to peak oil and societal collapse being a boom time for religions, even though religions have typically provided a form of societal order and structure.

TFian, you are all over the map on this one.

Pup
9th July 2011, 06:37 AM
Uhm, global oil production peaked in 2005, but regardless if it peaks in the future, once it does, industrial civilization is over.

Because we all know there's no source of power or raw materials other than oil.

They used to say the same thing about wood, back in the 19th century when trains and steamboats ran on wood, houses and bridges were built with wood, homes were heated with wood, agricultural fences were built with wood, and people cooked with wood. Trees couldn't grow fast enough and the U.S. in particular was expanding into the prairies and plains where there were already less trees per person.

Yet somehow we managed to survive peak wood without industrial civilization collapsing.

Complexity
9th July 2011, 06:42 AM
Reality, given the facts.


Sorry, but you don't get to make up your own 'facts'.

OP is soooo wrong.

Manopolus
9th July 2011, 08:44 AM
hmm.... maybe you'd better alert holocaust survivors about these "facts." Seems like a lot of them said they lost their faith in the concentration camps.

Garrette
9th July 2011, 08:52 AM
I don't have any offhand. You have no sources for any of his claims? That isn't a surprise.


He didn't say that atheists are never in the military.So it's metaphorical yet you questioned my claim that there are metaphorical atheists in foxholes on this forum and that I am one of them.


Just that atheism is VERY rare during trouble times, like societal collapse.And this is a claim for which you and he have no source. I dispute it.


It's better if we invest into spirituality because atheism offers us nothing. Better? Better how? Please define how it is better and please provide sources.


Uhm, global oil production peaked in 2005, but regardless if it peaks in the future, once it does, industrial civilization is over.1. You think production is a purely linear thing? You think there aren't ups and downs in production levels? And apparently you're not convinced it has peaked given how you worded this.

Dragonrock
9th July 2011, 09:02 AM
Domestic peaks of oil are different than global peaks of oil. It's well accepted the US hit peak oil in the 70s, which is why we've had to import oil since then.

Accepted by who? The US started importing oil because the higher quality crude found in the middle east is cheaper to refine than the oil found in the US. Once it becomes cheaper to pump and refine local oil then domestic drilling will increase. Plus, there are more than a few replacements for oil that are not used simply because the cost per unit of energy is higher than that of oil. Once these alternatives become advanced enough that they are cheaper than oil then they will become the primary energy source. It's entirely possible that oil demand will fall while there is still plenty of oil remaining.

Beerina
9th July 2011, 09:08 AM
If you're trapped and about to die with no rational way out, superstition is the only thing you have left, so your mind tries it.

I wouldn't hang my religious hopes on that situation.

Ray Brady
9th July 2011, 09:12 AM
Religious inclination skyrockets during societal collapse.

If that were true, the obvious conclusion would be that religious inclination causes societal collapse.

sadhatter
9th July 2011, 09:22 AM
1. What are Greer's sources for his claims? I dispute them.

2. There are many atheists in foxholes, myself included as well as many others on this very forum.

3. I read your link and find much that is without merit in it, not least of which is the old chestnut of peak oil. Experts and doomsayers have been saying we have either reached or are about to reach in a few years the peak production of oil. What makes Greer right this time.

It's nonsense.

Yeah as someone who has had the joy of having james randi take his mediocre story about almost dying in a car accident and post it on swift, said story being about this very issue, i can say, nonsense to the Nth degree.

When i thought i was dying i didn't think " Oh i hope god saves me." i thought , " what can i do to not die.". I was in real, legitimate fear of my life, and through a bit of knowlege of how to take impact, and experience in car accidents ( unlucky gent here.) , not prayer, i climbed out of a car accident that should have been fatal ( the paramedics were dumbfounded at the lack of injuries.).

sadhatter
9th July 2011, 09:33 AM
I don't have any offhand.



He didn't say that atheists are never in the military. Just that atheism is VERY rare during trouble times, like societal collapse. It's better if we invest into spirituality because atheism offers us nothing.



Uhm, global oil production peaked in 2005, but regardless if it peaks in the future, once it does, industrial civilization is over.

Your logic astounds me, societies going through bad times have more religious people, so we must strive to be more like collapsing societies.

Your argument would have weight if it was the opposite, that all collapsing societies had high rates of atheism. But it isn't , essentially your just taking a point against you, and flying in the face of all logic.

Collapsing societies don't have much atheism, prisons don't have much atheism, from these two examples, evidence mounts that the more atheism , the better the society.

I see what your trying to wedge in here, that in troubles people turn to religion, but they also turn to alcohol, drugs, crime, among many other crappy things, but i don't think you would be promoting having more drunks, criminals and drug addicts, though it follows the same premise.

Myriad
9th July 2011, 09:50 AM
Though I think I have more appreciation for some of Greer's points and his thinking and writing than most here, I don't see any logic in this at all.

Historical experience shows that people who get in fights often become bruised, scratched, and concussed. So, if someone is expecting a fight he should bruise, scratch, and hit himself in the head in preparation?

Historical experience shows that young people in cities in economic decline turn more to gang activity, vandalism, and violent crime. So if economic decline is anticipated, the city should encourage gang activity, vandalism, and violent crime in preparation?

Historical experience shows that when their girlfriends break up with them, many guys go get drunk. So if a guy thinks his girlfriend is about to break up with him, he should go get drunk in preparation?

Given the acknowledged association between religion and decline, on what basis can you conclude that religion is beneficial? Is there any example of increased spirituality averting or reversing an incipient decline or one already in progress?

And even if spirituality does provide some pallative benefit for individuals suffering from events (like the guy getting drunk because his girlfriend broke up with him), why do it in advance? That's like cursing while hammering a nail, so that you'll be ahead of the game if you hit your thumb.

Respectfully,
Myriad

SonOfLaertes
9th July 2011, 10:08 AM
Accepted by who? The US started importing oil because the higher quality crude found in the middle east is cheaper to refine than the oil found in the US. Once it becomes cheaper to pump and refine local oil then domestic drilling will increase. Plus, there are more than a few replacements for oil that are not used simply because the cost per unit of energy is higher than that of oil. Once these alternatives become advanced enough that they are cheaper than oil then they will become the primary energy source. It's entirely possible that oil demand will fall while there is still plenty of oil remaining.

[Unimpeachable Authority Mode]
Peak oil? Why should I care? Uhm, there are experts in the field who say that natural gas will step in for oil with no problem, supplying America's energy needs for the next three hundred years. Given that fact, there is no need to worry about peak oil.
[\Unimpeachable Authority Mode]

See, TFian? I too can assert that one expert's viewpoint is transparently rock solid so there is no reason to take reasonable counter-arguments seriously. Just for fun, though, and just to keep in the spirit of a forum where you've accumulated over 1,100 posts, would you deign to actually respond with substantive replies to a few counter-arguments?

Here's one of my favorites:

Tfian, there is ample evidence to conclude that your OP describes a "Descent into spirituality during periods of societal collapse". Time and again "desperation spirituality" is used by bad men as a tool to assume dictatorial control over the faithful, initiate brutality and barbarism against those of competing faiths, and to devise harsh repercussions against returning to a more civilized society (which obviously would erode the leadership's base of support). In short, faith can be seen as a symptom of civil collapse, accelerating the descent into barbarism, and delaying the return to a civil and free society.

You can reply to the above arguemt, or pick one of the others - don't care. From that point on we can have something we naively term a discussion, and you can redeem the tone of the vacuous assertions in your posts.

Mudcat
9th July 2011, 10:19 AM
Yeah as someone who has had the joy of having james randi take his mediocre story about almost dying in a car accident and post it on swift, said story being about this very issue, i can say, nonsense to the Nth degree.

When i thought i was dying i didn't think " Oh i hope god saves me." i thought , " what can i do to not die.". I was in real, legitimate fear of my life, and through a bit of knowlege of how to take impact, and experience in car accidents ( unlucky gent here.) , not prayer, i climbed out of a car accident that should have been fatal ( the paramedics were dumbfounded at the lack of injuries.).

I have had many brushes with death myself. I've been ran over by a truck, poisoned, drugged, beat, and rapped, I've survived a fire, a tornado, a flood, multiple hurricanes and a blizzard. Never did God or anything supernatural cross my mind.

Skeptic Ginger
9th July 2011, 11:44 AM
So now it's another TEOTWAWKI claim? Oil supplies dwindle and society collapses? Guess I better restock the bomb shelter. :rolleyes:

tsig
10th July 2011, 07:41 AM
"...There tend to be very few atheists in collapsing civilizations..."

The irony being that this statement can be interpreted as a claim that collapsing civilizations are overrun with spirituality.

Yes, was the decline and fall of the Roman empire due to Christianity or was it a symptom of that decline?

Dave Rogers
10th July 2011, 07:49 AM
Given this piece of reality, can atheism truly be societal productive, and if not, should we not discourage it's proliferation and encourage a return to spirituality instead?

I'm going to take a constructive view here, and specify what's required to make this question even worth addressing. Firstly, let's have a definition of "collapsing society"; it doesn't need to be perfect, but it does need to be objective. Next, let's see some demographics in which a representative sample of collapsing societies is demonstrated to contain a greater proportion of atheists than a representative sample of societies in other stages of their development cycle. If those numbers exist, then there's a question to be answered, and we can start addressing the question of whether atheism is a cause of societal collapse, a symptom of it, an insufficiently effective defence against it, or an otherwise irrelevant effect of a common cause that occurs alongside it. Without that information, the question is about as useful and relevant as, for example, the question "Given that people suffering a fever have an excessive amount of blood in their bodies, should we therefore treat the fever by bloodletting?"

Dave

Kahalachan
11th July 2011, 06:48 AM
There are no theists in foxholes. You won't find one person in a foxhole praying that the guns disappear. They know it won't happen.

They are taking every possible physical measure to preserve their life.

Theists dial 911 first, pray second.

godless dave
11th July 2011, 12:27 PM
Uhm, global oil production peaked in 2005, but regardless if it peaks in the future, once it does, industrial civilization is over.

That doesn't follow. Petroleum is not the only possible energy source.

Mister Agenda
11th July 2011, 02:00 PM
The rate of atheism is higher in the US armed forces than in the US general public. Just sayin'.

Mister Earl
11th July 2011, 02:06 PM
As an atheist who has been in a foxhole (Operation Iraqi Freedom, 2008-9), I happily disagree with the person OP quoted, and stand as a single point of data contradicting it.

godless dave
11th July 2011, 02:09 PM
Given he's an authority in his field, yes.

He's an authority in psychology and world history? What degrees does he have and what has he published?

ynot
11th July 2011, 02:11 PM
There are no theists in foxholes. You won't find one person in a foxhole praying that the guns disappear. They know it won't happen.

They are taking every possible physical measure to preserve their life.

Theists dial 911 first, pray second.
Well said and true. There is no prayer survival instinct.

JadeStonesFromSaturn
17th July 2011, 06:55 PM
And even if spirituality does provide some pallative benefit for individuals suffering from events (like the guy getting drunk because his girlfriend broke up with him), why do it in advance? That's like cursing while hammering a nail, so that you'll be ahead of the game if you hit your thumb.

Respectfully,
Myriad

Don't forget reality altering narcotics use also jumps up in breakdowns of economic orders. There's "truly" no sobriety in foxholes either, so let's get ready and get high people!

ponderingturtle
17th July 2011, 07:04 PM
hmm.... maybe you'd better alert holocaust survivors about these "facts." Seems like a lot of them said they lost their faith in the concentration camps.

But the property is a magic property of fox holes, not death camps.