What kind of god sentences people to be tortured for eternity?

[dtugg]

Like the title says what kind of god would do this simply because one finds the evidence that the Jesus being the son of god and all to be lacking? I can understand doing it to people like Hitler or Stalin but regular everyday people who happen to be skeptics?

If this god exists it is probably the most evil being in the history of the universe seeing as how it has sentenced tens of billions of people to spend eternity suffering for no real crimes. And perhaps more sentient beings on other planets. If I was sure that it existed, I would worship it out of fear probably, but not because I felt it deserved to be worshiped. I guess it would know that though being omniscient and all. So I would be **********.

Christians?

[PGH]

That's my criticism of some agnostics. Why even pretend to believe? Shouldn't the all powerful creator of everything that's ever existed know if you're lying or not?

If he's real he's still a prick and I'd rather burn than praise him for eternity. I have better morals than that.

[Skeptic Ginger]

What kind of god sentences people to be tortured for eternity?

An imaginary one, of course. :)

[IMST]

What kind of god sentences people to be tortured for eternity?

An imaginary one, of course. :)

Oh, right. Just cause I'm a little slow check the forum you have to beat me to my own joke. Madam, I accuse you of reverse copyright infringement!

[Monketey Ghost]

I think the understanding is that such people have knowledge of god but reject him.

[RandFan]

Not a just one. Not a merciful one. Not an omnicient one. Not an omnipotent one. All have to be sacrificed to accept such a proposition.


To punish someone infinately for a finite crime is malcious and unjust.
If you say god has no choice then god is not omnipotent.
If god is all knowing and merciful why would he even create a system where the end result is infinite punishment?

[AvalonXQ]

Christians?

Annihilationist here.

But the basic answer is that whatever Hades is, it is the appropriate and proportional response for sin.

The correlary is that sinning is a very, very terrible thing, and humans are too wrapped up in it to understand that.

[dtugg]

I remember seeing one priest talking about how he didn't believe that god could be so cruel to send people to hell for no real reason and that if you don't accept Jesus that you simply stop existing when you die. Certainly more reasonable. But I am pretty sure he just made that crap up. If you can make stuff up about the "holy" bible that you don't like what point is there in believing it at all?

[AvalonXQ]

To punish someone infinately for a finite crime is malcious and unjust.

Upon what basis do you claim this to be true?

More specifically, what a priori evidence do you provide that an infinite punishment must always be excessive for eternal betrayal of one eternal being by another?

These arguments seem to come down to assumptions by the non-believer about the metaphysics of morality and sin that can't possibly be known to the non-believer.

[AvalonXQ]

I remember seeing one priest talking about how he didn't believe that god could be so cruel to send people to hell for no real reason and that if you don't accept Jesus that you simply stop existing when you die. Certainly more reasonable. But I am pretty sure he just made that crap up.

I also believe that unforgiven sinners are annihilated following the resurrection and judgement. It seems to be the most consistent reading with Scripture.

[Mudcat]

The same kind of God that would unleash a killer flood on the world, destroying all life. The same kind of God that would withdraw protection from his own chosen people so that they may come to know and fear him. The same kind of God that demands continuous worship, ritual sacrifice, absolute obedience and tithes, all without doing anything in return but occasionally showing his anger for no discernible reason.

One that does not deserve to be acknowledged, let alone worshiped.

Lucky us the bastage does not exist outside the human mind.

[dtugg]

Annihilationist here.

But the basic answer is that whatever Hades is, it is the appropriate and proportional response for sin.

The correlary is that sinning is a very, very terrible thing, and humans are too wrapped up in it to understand that.

Why? Because god says so? Great circular argument there buddy.

[AvalonXQ]

Why? Because god says so? Great circular argument there buddy.

What exactly is the circular argument? Spell it out for me, please.

[dtugg]

What exactly is the circular argument? Spell it out for me, please.

Perhaps it was incorrect to characterize it as a circular argument. But it is still extremely poor logic to state that "sinning is a very, very terrible thing" when all you have to base this on is a being who is not even proven to exist.

[PGH]

I remember seeing one priest talking about how he didn't believe that god could be so cruel to send people to hell for no real reason and that if you don't accept Jesus that you simply stop existing when you die. Certainly more reasonable. But I am pretty sure he just made that crap up. If you can make stuff up about the "holy" bible that you don't like what point is there in believing it at all?

Because you can make good money that way.

[Resume]

Annihilationist here.

But the basic answer is that whatever Hades is, it is the appropriate and proportional response for sin.

The correlary is that sinning is a very, very terrible thing, and humans are too wrapped up in it to understand that.

No such thing as sin.

[Hans]

One with a poor marketing campaign

[OrangeCatz]

God has Predestination.

Apparently, God made me to be an atheist, and thus, condemning me to eternity in hell.

Sure, free will and all that. It still doesn't change the fact that God supposedly made me who I am.

[AdMan]

Like the title says what kind of god would do this simply because one finds the evidence that the Jesus being the son of god and all to be lacking? I can understand doing it to people like Hitler or Stalin but regular everyday people who happen to be skeptics?



Not only that, but this god is supposedly punishing his creations for all eternity. Yep--those beings he made in his own image and to whom he gave minds capable of critical thinking that in many cases led to a rejection of belief in him. And, being omniscient, this god knew that this was going to happen, free will or not, when he created mankind.

Nice guy.

[Resume]

Not only that, but this god is supposedly punishing his creations for all eternity. Yep--those beings he made in his own image and to whom he gave minds capable of critical thinking that in many cases led to a rejection of belief in him. And, being omniscient, this god knew that this was going to happen, free will or not, when he created mankind.

Nice guy.

Certainly not omnibenevolent. Unless you want to change the meaning of that term, or claim it has a meaning only that creator gives it. In other words, make stuff up.

[Pup]

Annihilationist here.

But the basic answer is that whatever Hades is, it is the appropriate and proportional response for sin.

The correlary is that sinning is a very, very terrible thing, and humans are too wrapped up in it to understand that.

An omniscient, omnipotent god didn't have to create people who he knew would be tortured for eternity. So he chose to create them, knowing he would torture them, rather than not create them at all.

I think that's the point behind the OP. It's the kind of god who likes to see creatures suffer.

[Weak Kitten]

I've often thought that you could have a god if you were willing to have only two of the three aspects; omnipotence, omniscience, and omni-benevolence.

Omnipotence and Omniscience gets you the nasty, brutish god that many people come to hate just before they convert to Atheism.

Omnipotence and Omni-benevolence gets you what I call the frenetic god. A being who is running all over the place trying to spot fix the errors in the universe even as horrible things are happening where it just can't see. Strangely this doesn't seem to be a very popular view of god, you'd think that IT folks at least would understand this one.

The saddest combo is Omniscience and Omni-benevolence. This is what I call the tortured god. A being forever doomed to know all the pain and suffering of the world and only able in help in small ways, if at all. Strangely, this seems to be the version of god that many Theists go with, perhaps because it is a position all of us can understand and empathize with.

[DC]

one that was made up with the intention to control the people?

[Complexity]

A christian 'god'?

In other words, a monster.

[Toontown]

Annihilationist here.

But the basic answer is that whatever Hades is, it is the appropriate and proportional response for sin.

The correlary is that sinning is a very, very terrible thing, and humans are too wrapped up in it to understand that.

If sinning is a very, very terrible thing, then it must be an even more terrible thing to create billions of sinners.

So when is this god-thing going to sentence itself to eternal damnation for the very, very terrible sin of creating billions of very, very terrible sinners who must be punished eternally in a very, very terrible way?

Justice is justice. A father of sin is a father of sin. Doesn't matter if the father of sin is all-powerful. That's just an accident of non-birth, and really just makes his inception of sin a million times worse. If sin is very, very terrible, then the father of it must be very, very, very, very terrible, and deserving of a very, very, very, very terrible punishment.

But Goddie-boy doesn't have the guts, does he. Doesn't have the guts to apply the same terrible law to himself that he applies to us. No guts, no integrity. Yet he demands worship. What a hypocritical sack of omnipotent crap.

What did goddie-boy do to earn his omnipotence, BTW? He couldn't have earned it. You can't earn something you've always had. Did you 'earn' your nose?

[Toontown]

I also believe that unforgiven sinners are annihilated following the resurrection and judgement. It seems to be the most consistent reading with Scripture.

And I believe you will be annihilated by the cessation of your bodily functions. It seems to be the most consistent interpretation of observable reality.

If I'm right, you're glued and tattooed, aren't you. Is that why you hang around here, arguing that we're all wrong, and a sect of ancient flat-earthers were right?

[Ray Brady]

I'll preface this by pointing out I'm an atheist, and believe neither in gods nor Hell nor souls nor an afterlife. But if I did have to come up with an answer to this question, I'd say something like this:

God doesn't sentence people to Hell. Hell is a self-induced state of torture, caused by the soul's refusal to rejoin with the universal creative spirit after death. There are no devils or pitchforks or flames, only an eternal sense of abandonment and isolation. It is this despair that we call Hell, and it can only be alleviated if the soul realizes what has happened to it, which leads to belief.

You could explain ghosts this way too. Probably not chupacabras.

[tsig]

Annihilationist here.

But the basic answer is that whatever Hades is, it is the appropriate and proportional response for sin.

The correlary is that sinning is a very, very terrible thing, and humans are too wrapped up in it to understand that.

One mans' sin is another mans' virtue.

[tsig]

Like the title says what kind of god would do this simply because one finds the evidence that the Jesus being the son of god and all to be lacking? I can understand doing it to people like Hitler or Stalin but regular everyday people who happen to be skeptics?

If this god exists it is probably the most evil being in the history of the universe seeing as how it has sentenced tens of billions of people to spend eternity suffering for no real crimes. And perhaps more sentient beings on other planets. If I was sure that it existed, I would worship it out of fear probably, but not because I felt it deserved to be worshiped. I guess it would know that though being omniscient and all. So I would be **********.

Christians?

See title.

[tsig]

I'll preface this by pointing out I'm an atheist, and believe neither in gods nor Hell nor souls nor an afterlife. But if I did have to come up with an answer to this question, I'd say something like this:

God doesn't sentence people to Hell. Hell is a self-induced state of torture, caused by the soul's refusal to rejoin with the universal creative spirit after death. There are no devils or pitchforks or flames, only an eternal sense of abandonment and isolation. It is this despair that we call Hell, and it can only be alleviated if the soul realizes what has happened to it, which leads to belief.

You could explain ghosts this way too. Probably not chupacabras.

That's pretty close to Catholic theology that says that the main pain of hell is being separated from god. They just tack on the fires and torture to scare the rubes and keep the pews and coffers full.

[slingblade]

Making up scary gods enables people to do terrible things with no personal responsibility.

[Skeptic Ginger]

I think the understanding is that such people have knowledge of god but reject him.

And that makes it less imaginary?

[Skeptic Ginger]

Making up scary gods enables people to do terrible things with no personal responsibility.I think it's more like there is some underlying human emotional need to be believed. "If you don't believe me you will be sorry."

But that's pure speculation.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Oh, right. Just cause I'm a little slow check the forum you have to beat me to my own joke. Madam, I accuse you of reverse copyright infringement!Just random chance I saw the thread first. ;)

[Skeptic Ginger]

I also believe that unforgiven sinners are annihilated following the resurrection and judgement. It seems to be the most consistent reading with Scripture.

That's one of the nice things about fiction, it's maleable.

[Beerina]

One need not even bother with active tortures by this kind god. Merely noting it is ambivalent about babies being raped to death is enough to judge God a horrible creature that deserves a tortured death itself.

[slingblade]

I think it's more like there is some underlying human emotional need to be believed. "If you don't believe me you will be sorry."

But that's pure speculation.

And I think I meant just what I said. Not that your opinion is invalid. It just isn't what I was saying. :)

Gott mit uns. ;)

[Ethnikos]

Upon what basis do you claim this to be true?

More specifically, what a priori evidence do you provide that an infinite punishment must always be excessive for eternal betrayal of one eternal being by another?

These arguments seem to come down to assumptions by the non-believer about the metaphysics of morality and sin that can't possibly be known to the non-believer.The bases of it is we all acknowledge that it is true, whether somehow technically it may not be, then it is still relevant and if God is to not be universaly, and rightfully hated, then the verdict of the governed needs to be addressed.
The evidence of the excessiveness is that everyone thinks so, so then it is. If not, then the burden of proof is on the other side.
Are you a believer in metaphysics, or are you a believer in God?
What is this secret knowledge? The only one I can think of as being possible is the compunctions of the Holy Spirit to have actual emotions of compassion on people you may otherwise have no problem causing harm to.
Who is harmed, should be questioned. Do you mean if I sin, then God is injured, so restitution must be make? And since god is so much bigger than me, his sense of injury is so great that an eternity of me suffering will never match the pain god felt when I had a nasty thought one day?

[JudeBrando]

I also believe that unforgiven sinners are annihilated following the resurrection and judgement. It seems to be the most consistent reading with Scripture.
So "eternal" really means temporary?

[Ethnikos]

So "eternal" really means temporary?

Right, annihilation contradicts his earlier statement about eternal beings.

[AdMan]

I also believe that unforgiven sinners are annihilated following the resurrection and judgement. It seems to be the most consistent reading with Scripture.


Why would you try to be consistent with Scripture? Scripture makes no sense.

[tsig]

Upon what basis do you claim this to be true?

More specifically, what a priori evidence do you provide that an infinite punishment must always be excessive for eternal betrayal of one eternal being by another?

These arguments seem to come down to assumptions by the non-believer about the metaphysics of morality and sin that can't possibly be known to the non-believer.

I also believe that unforgiven sinners are annihilated following the resurrection and judgement. It seems to be the most consistent reading with Scripture.

Right, annihilation contradicts his earlier statement about eternal beings.

You're right and he does it in two consecutive posts.

[Skeptic Ginger]

And I think I meant just what I said. Not that your opinion is invalid. It just isn't what I was saying. :)

Gott mit uns. ;)
Perhaps you could give us an example? I don't quite get how burning in hell is an excuse to be atrocious here.


BTW, I know I have a post of yours in the elevatorgate discussion I owe you a reply to. I just haven't gotten back to it yet.

[Brattus]

I don't quite understand the OP.
God is love and peace and beauty.
God is in the colors of a rainbow and the smile of a child.
God is butterflies dancing in the wind and cute little puppy dogs.

Everything else is Satan.
My lord and master.
A cup of warm human babies blood anyone?

[Robin]

I also believe that unforgiven sinners are annihilated following the resurrection and judgement. It seems to be the most consistent reading with Scripture.
Like "eternal punishment"?

And "The smoke of their torment will rise forever and ever, and they will have no relief day or night"?

[Robin]

More specifically, what a priori evidence do you provide that an infinite punishment must always be excessive for eternal betrayal of one eternal being by another?
Can you give a specific example of such an eternal betrayal that you have in mind, stating how it is eternal, who is being betrayed and in what way they are being betrayed?

[Leumas]

Like the title says what kind of god would do this simply because one finds the evidence that the Jesus being the son of god and all to be lacking? I can understand doing it to people like Hitler or Stalin but regular everyday people who happen to be skeptics?

If this god exists it is probably the most evil being in the history of the universe seeing as how it has sentenced tens of billions of people to spend eternity suffering for no real crimes. And perhaps more sentient beings on other planets. If I was sure that it existed, I would worship it out of fear probably, but not because I felt it deserved to be worshiped. I guess it would know that though being omniscient and all. So I would be **********.

Christians?



Also see this post (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=7355314&postcount=1) which deals with Salvation combined with Atonement resulting in the most VILE MORALITY ever.

[Robin]

A cup of warm human babies blood anyone?
That is disgusting!

Using a plural instead of the possessive case!

[Brattus]

That is disgusting!

Using a plural instead of the possessive case!

LOL!!! Now that is funny!!!

[Craig4]

Annihilationist here.

But the basic answer is that whatever Hades is, it is the appropriate and proportional response for sin.

The correlary is that sinning is a very, very terrible thing, and humans are too wrapped up in it to understand that.

Where does god get the right to govern? At one point did this god thing submit to the judgment of the people and get a majority to consent to his/her/its governance? Why should I be bothered with what some sky fairy does or does not want me to do when he/she/it can't even be bothered to show him/her/its self. Even if a god existed that would not mean it had the right to set down laws.

[Leumas]

Where does god get the right to govern? At one point did this god thing submit to the judgment of the people and get a majority to consent to his/her/its governance? Why should I be bothered with what some sky fairy does or does not want me to do when he/she/it can't even be bothered to show him/her/its self. Even if a god existed that would not mean it had the right to set down laws.


Watch this SERMON (http://www.northpoint.org/messages/amazing-stories)(make sure you see Part 4…click on the 4 button below the video pane) were the s.o.b. basically tells the SHEEP that God is a King and as such is free to do what he wants and who are we to question or even feel like we have the right to question his actions. We should accept his actions even if the results make no sense and appear to be unjust. God is king and just like a king he is a TYRANNICAL DESPOT and we have no right except accept his actions unquestioningly or else suffer his ETERNAL WRATH.


The Evangelical Fundamentalist Christian movement is putting us back to the Middle Ages….insidiously and assuredly just as a cancer eats away at a body.

[Galteeth]

A seriously badass one!

[DC]

Watch this SERMON (http://www.northpoint.org/messages/amazing-stories)(make sure you see Part 4…click on the 4 button below the video pane) were the s.o.b. basically tells the SHEEP that God is a King and as such is free to do what he wants and who are we to question or even feel like we have the right to question his actions. We should accept his actions even if the results make no sense and appear to be unjust. God is king and just like a king he is a TYRANNICAL DESPOT and we have no right except accept his actions unquestioningly or else suffer his ETERNAL WRATH.


The Evangelical Fundamentalist Christian movement is putting us back to the Middle Ages….insidiously and assuredly just as a cancer eats away at a body.

oh well he has some talent to tell about world wide genocide in very charming way :)

[Cainkane1]

Like the title says what kind of god would do this simply because one finds the evidence that the Jesus being the son of god and all to be lacking? I can understand doing it to people like Hitler or Stalin but regular everyday people who happen to be skeptics?

If this god exists it is probably the most evil being in the history of the universe seeing as how it has sentenced tens of billions of people to spend eternity suffering for no real crimes. And perhaps more sentient beings on other planets. If I was sure that it existed, I would worship it out of fear probably, but not because I felt it deserved to be worshiped. I guess it would know that though being omniscient and all. So I would be **********.

Christians?
Well the bible says that if Hitler and Stalin had "repented" they would go to Heaven anyway. I was told by a Baptist once years ago that if a rapist murderer who killed a prostitute and later on repented the prostitute would go to hell and the murderer would go to heaven. Religion to me is patently absurd. Eternal hell for anyone is purely and simply a cncept of bronze age imagination and ignorance. This is the only life there is. No heaven and no hell.

[Cainkane1]

I remember seeing one priest talking about how he didn't believe that god could be so cruel to send people to hell for no real reason and that if you don't accept Jesus that you simply stop existing when you die. Certainly more reasonable. But I am pretty sure he just made that crap up. If you can make stuff up about the "holy" bible that you don't like what point is there in believing it at all?
This is what the Jehovah Witnesses say and they are half right. They say that death without resurrection is Hell. The trouble is this. No one will ever be resurrected so no paradise earth either.

[SumDood]

This is one of the main reasons I'm an atheist. Not only is the concept of Hell demented, the rules governing who goes there are as well. Only a sick and twisted being would come up with the concept.

"Lets see, what should I do to people who don't follow my rules? Maybe show them the error of their ways and give them another go at it on earth? Maybe fewer benefits and rewards in the after life? Maybe a year in purgatory before entering my kingdom? Nah, lets torture them for all eternity."

The most evil baby-raping, seal clubbing, Black Eyed Peas listening person can repent on his death bed and go to heaven while the most charitable, humanitarian Jew goes to hell. Makes perfect sense.

And be sure to repent at the right time, too. The sinner is crossing the street, sees a bus about to hit him and thinks "Repent!" (which of course he means "forgive me god, i accept jesus, etc) and he gets into heaven. But if he has a brain fart and instead thinks "I'm about to die, there's something i'm supposed to do, what is that?" and BAM! he gets hit and dies. And then in the after life he realizes, "Oh yeah, REPENT". Opps! Sorry, to late! If only you had thought of that a moment earlier. Off to hell with you.

[Ethnikos]

Watch this sermon.
*snip*

I got as far as 7:35 into part 4 and wanted to vomit and had to turn it off.
I don't know what sort of illness the speaker in this video has but it is one that makes whoever is infected, want to give it to others.
We, as human beings were created to be gods and to rule over worlds and there are plenty of them out there, and not to be babbling children with strict parents keeping us from sticking our hands into flames and things.
We have minds and can think of things to do ourselves and to make decisions.
This video is a good example of what your signature says, that they want a feudalistic system and that has already been publicly announced by the Pope.

[NoahFence]

Like the title says what kind of god would do this simply because one finds the evidence that the Jesus being the son of god and all to be lacking? I can understand doing it to people like Hitler or Stalin but regular everyday people who happen to be skeptics?

If this god exists it is probably the most evil being in the history of the universe seeing as how it has sentenced tens of billions of people to spend eternity suffering for no real crimes. And perhaps more sentient beings on other planets. If I was sure that it existed, I would worship it out of fear probably, but not because I felt it deserved to be worshiped. I guess it would know that though being omniscient and all. So I would be **********.

Christians?

My mother is Super Catholic - even has the mask and cape to prove it.

I attended a Baptist Church many, many moons ago (not thrilled I have to use 2 "many's" now) and they actually said my mother was going to hell because she never uttered the words "Jesus is my personal savior"

Needless to say, that was the last day I was there, and my quick descent (ascent?) to hethendom was begun.

[NoahFence]

If sinning is a very, very terrible thing, then it must be an even more terrible thing to create billions of sinners.

Ah... but he gave us free will. That's the out.

[NoahFence]

I don't quite understand the OP.
God is love and peace and beauty.
God is in the colors of a rainbow and the smile of a child.
God is butterflies dancing in the wind and cute little puppy dogs.

Everything else is Satan.
My lord and master.
A cup of warm human babies blood anyone?

Are you missing a :rolleyes:?

If everything else is satan, then:

Kittens purring on your lap is satan.
A cool iced tea in a heat wave is satan.
Swallows darting and dancing in the air is satan.

[Raleigh Marsden]

Like the title says what kind of god would do this simply because one finds the evidence that the Jesus being the son of god and all to be lacking? I can understand doing it to people like Hitler or Stalin but regular everyday people who happen to be skeptics?

If this god exists it is probably the most evil being in the history of the universe seeing as how it has sentenced tens of billions of people to spend eternity suffering for no real crimes. And perhaps more sentient beings on other planets. If I was sure that it existed, I would worship it out of fear probably, but not because I felt it deserved to be worshiped. I guess it would know that though being omniscient and all. So I would be **********.

Christians?

The kind of god that would sentence someone to be tortured for eternity is the one that lives in your head, mate.

[Robin]

The kind of god that would sentence someone to be tortured for eternity is the one that lives in your head, mate.
And in some billions of other heads.

[Raleigh Marsden]

And in some billions of other heads.

Including yours, yes?

[Ethnikos]

*snip* . . .and they actually said my mother was going to hell because she never uttered the words "Jesus is my personal savior" That is not even New Testament theology.
That's Old Testament and then, it is only for the king.
Most Christians do not realize this but "personal saviour", and "personal god" are reserved only for the King, in the Bible.

[Sun Countess]

Elvis is in the bible? :eye-poppi

[Sledge]

Elvis was in quite a bit of the Bible, thanks to Barry.

[Robin]

Including yours, yes?
And yours and in the head of anybody who has heard of the concept.

But there are billions of people who are convinced that this concept refers to a real being.

[Robin]

Elvis was in quite a bit of the Bible, thanks to Barry.
I don't get it.

[Resume]

The kind of god that would sentence someone to be tortured for eternity is the one that lives in your head, mate.

I have no god in my head. Maybe that's why I don't hear voices.

[DrBaltar]

> What kind of god sentences people to be tortured for eternity?

I thought about that quite a bit as a teenager. Eternity is a REALLY long time. Think of the remaining timeline of the universe. After a trillion years there are no new stars. At 10^15 years the degenerate era starts when half of all protons have decayed. Then begins the black hole era until 10^100 years when even supermassive black holes have evaporated. 10^1000 years: the heat death of the universe. Just as our lives are not even a fraction of eternity, neither is 10^1000 years a fraction of eternity.

This life we have now is an instant, the very first instant of our eternal life (assuming all this religious BS is true). If we live 100 years, our lives on earth are 100/infinity = 0% of our eternal life. God would literally be sentencing people to eternal hell based on our initial condition. How is that for fairness? That was one of the reasons I decided even if there is a god, I want no part of it.

[slingblade]

Perhaps you could give us an example? I don't quite get how burning in hell is an excuse to be atrocious here.

A person could tell others that god told him certain behaviors are fine with god, or even ordered by god, and therefore can't be contested. You know, like slavery. Or like killing a bunch of Jews. Or burning witches.

Well, you can't exactly go over the guy's head and ask god himself, now can you?

So, there you go.


BTW, I know I have a post of yours in the elevatorgate discussion I owe you a reply to. I just haven't gotten back to it yet.

Meh, I'm over it. The whole thread is SSDD and all that. But thanks anyway. :)

[Toontown]

If sinning is a very, very terrible thing, then it must be an even more terrible thing to create billions of sinners.

Ah... but he gave us free will. That's the out.

An omnipotoid with an "out". Who woulda thunk it. It is not enough merely to be omnipotent. One must also have an out. After all, an omnipotoid needs every edge He can get against those evil mortals. Biblical history has shown that a God who allows Himself to be vulnerable will be quickly nailed to a cross by the simians. That's why it's always good to have an omnipotent Father for backup when a God goes slumming. The Sorry Bastard might let The Son get crucified and stay dead for 3 days, but He will eventually beam Sonny Boy up.

At any rate, Goddie-boy is lucky there are no omnipotent lawyers, and even more lucky there are no omnipotent hangmen. His "out" is weak.

1. The free will is what brings sin in.

2. Gawd also had free will, and could have used it to decline to create billions of willful sinners. Yet he willfully chose to create the billions of sinners, thereby making Himself the Father of Sin and the true Master of Hell.

[kerikiwi]

It seems to be the most consistent reading with Scripture.

Quite possibly, but why believe scripture in the first place?

[Ron_Tomkins]

Agreed, man. God sucks.


YA HEAR ME, GOD? YOUUU SUUUUUUUUUUUUUCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[RandFan]

2. Gawd also had free will, and could have used it to decline to create billions of willful sinners. Yet he willfully chose to create the billions of sinners, thereby making Himself the Father of Sin and the true Master of Hell.Does he have the free will to change his mind?



If yes then he isn't omnipotent.
If no then he doesn't have free will.


"Gawd", love that. I like how any attribute can simply be given god even if it is logically inconsistent.

[Travis]

When I was a kid we went to a Baptist church. There we heard a whole hours worth about torture, pain, misery for all eternity for any and all sins no matter how small. My parents were so horrified we never went back. A year later we converted to Mormonism which seemed way saner by comparison.

[Leumas]

Does he have the free will to change his mind?



If yes then he isn't omnipotent Omniscient.
If no then he doesn't have free will is not omnipotent.


"Gawd", love that. I like how any attribute can simply be given god even if it is logically inconsistent.

I think the version above might be better????

Here is another one

Can God create a rock so big that he cannot lift it?

If yes then he is not a god since he is not omnipotent....can't lift it
If no then he is not a god since he is not omnipotent....can't make it


Here is one that is much better and is a lot more pertinent.

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? then is he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? then is he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? then he is a moron since he is obviously failing?

Of course the usual theist retort is FREE WILL.

But what they always forget is...what about the free will of the victims? Did a child who is being hacked to death or raped or enslaved have any free will?

Is god under some kind of PRIME DIRECTIVE..... then again he is no god.


Why does he (supposedly) interfere with free will capriciously in such vague ways and never in a decisively obvious manner not open to interpretations and conjectures (e.g. uselessly and meaninglessly showing his face or his mother's to some hick)?

[Ethnikos]

*snip*
Is he able, but not willing? then is he is malevolent.


Have you read the Lord of the Rings trilogy?
The Ents, are you familiar with them?
They are as old as the Earth and take a long time to gather a council and make a decision but once they do, watch out and you don't want to be the one they decide against.
That may be the better analogy.
The white wizard was good, at one point, Saruman, but turned bad, eventually. The Ents remembered him from when he was good. They had to make a joint decision to finally decide he was bad enough to warrant killing him.
Well it doesn't turn out that way in the book but you may get my point.
God was pretty good and then he messed up somehow with this planet. He tried to hide it by just killing everyone and starting over. The people who survived and started to repopulate the planet remembered what he did and decided to go to heaven and complain to the higher authorities.
Our god did not like that idea and stopped them by making it so they could not all join together and talk as one voice to the council of the gods.

[RandFan]

I think the version above might be better????Thank you. I meant "omniscient". But yeah, I agree with your edits.

Here is another one

Can God create a rock so big that he cannot lift it?

If yes then he is not a god since he is not omnipotent....can't lift it
If no then he is not a god since he is not omnipotent....can't make it

I very much liked this one until I read an argument against it. I forgot but it was either Augustine of Hippo or St. Aquinas. Hell, it could even be C.S. Lewis. In any event the argument goes like this: God can't do anything that is not logically impossible to do. God can't make square circles or married bachelors. Such seemingly paradoxical feats aren't really. They are just nonsensical. An omnipotent being creating a rock too big to lift is illogical, not a paradox.


Here is one that is much better and is a lot more pertinent.Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? then is he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? then is he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? then he is a moron since he is obviously failing?Of course the usual theist retort is FREE WILL. The Riddle of Epicurus. I love it. Quote it all of the time. However in this case, no. Relevant but, IMO, not as impactful as my poorly worded paradox. It's great for dealing with Theodicy.

But what they always forget is...what about the free will of the victims? Did a child who is being hacked to death or raped or enslaved have any free will?Again, great point for Theodicy.

Good post. Thanks for the correction.

[Complexity]

Where does god get the right to govern? At one point did this god thing submit to the judgment of the people and get a majority to consent to his/her/its governance? Why should I be bothered with what some sky fairy does or does not want me to do when he/she/it can't even be bothered to show him/her/its self. Even if a god existed that would not mean it had the right to set down laws.


You're going in the right direction, but not nearly far enough. Their 'god' is a presumptuous bastard.

Even if everyone else voted to be ruled by such a monstrosity, I would not be bound by their decision, for I have never ceded my authority to a group.

If their were a god (there's not) and it were anything like the judeochristianislamic god, I would be its implacable enemy.

It doesn't matter who would win - I love a good fight, and I'd be in the right.

[Leumas]

God was pretty good and then he messed up somehow with this planet. He tried to hide it by just killing everyone and starting over. The people who survived and started to repopulate the planet remembered what he did and decided to go to heaven and complain to the higher authorities.

Not a very intelligent god is he? If all humans were contaminated with the “original sin” and were so sinful, and he was willing to wipe the slate clean and start over again, why then save Drunkard Noah and his nakedness-revealing Sons? This is like me cutting out the cancer from a patient and leaving bits of it behind.



Our god did not like that idea and stopped them by making it so they could not all join together and talk as one voice to the council of the gods.

When I was a kid I remember watching the Lunar Landing on TV with my family. My grandmother was there and the following conversation ensued:
GM: This cannot happen, it is not real!
Me: Why grandma?
GM: Because God won’t let them!
Me: Why, what has god got to do with it?
GM: Go get the bible and read Gen 11
Me (after reading it): But grandma, that does not make sense. God would have to be a vile moron if we go by that story!
GM (after smacking me on the back of the head): Blasphemer!


My grandmother went to her grave still not believing that man landed on the moon. I could not convince her either that the sky was not a dome and that the rainbow was not made by god as a memory jogging device for himself.

[Ethnikos]

Not a very intelligent god is he? If all humans were contaminated with the “original sin” and were so sinful, and he was willing to wipe the slate clean and start over again, why then save Drunkard Noah and his nakedness-revealing Sons? This is like me cutting out the cancer from a patient and leaving bits of it behind.
*snip*
Sea Goddess, who god had to ask to help in killing the people.
That god was never killed but only subdued enough to where god could bring forth dry land. She took pity on Noah, seeing he was good, gave him a plan to survive.
Psalms 89:10a Rahab was crushed by you like one wounded to death;. . .
Psalms 89:11 The heavens are yours, and yours also the earth; you founded the world and all that is in it.

Geneses describes the union of the air god with the sea god (Rahab) to give birth to the earth and she had to consent if he was going to reverse the process, that she wisely refused to do entirely.
. . .darkness was over the surface of the watery deep, but the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the water. . .So God made the expanse and separated the water under the expanse from the water above it. . .
This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created – when the Lord God made the earth and heavens.
God did not make the oceans. She is primordial and antecedes the male god.

[TheAnachronism]

Re: free will

I myself can think of several different solutions for combating evil without interfering with anyone's free will, and I'm not even a supposedly perfect, just, and omniscient being. Being able to exercise free will and carrying out an action as a result of free will are two different things. If a tree falling on a rapist who is about to attack a woman is interfering with his free will, and thus mysteriously off limits to Gott, then I don't see how Gott could effect anything in reality, as believers claim he is able to do.

I once asked a Christian friend of mine to imagine a scenario in which a mugger comes up to him, puts a gun to his head, pulls the trigger, and nothing happens. The guns fails to fire. What would he do? "I would thank God," he responded. So apparently, y'all, Gott is perfectly able to keep firearms from going off and killing innocent people when he wants to. The problem, I guess, is getting him to want to.

[Travis]

Not a very intelligent god is he? If all humans were contaminated with the “original sin” and were so sinful, and he was willing to wipe the slate clean and start over again, why then save Drunkard Noah and his nakedness-revealing Sons? This is like me cutting out the cancer from a patient and leaving bits of it behind.




When I was a kid I remember watching the Lunar Landing on TV with my family. My grandmother was there and the following conversation ensued:GM: This cannot happen, it is not real!
Me: Why grandma?
GM: Because God won’t let them!
Me: Why, what has god got to do with it?
GM: Go get the bible and read Gen 11
Me (after reading it): But grandma, that does not make sense. God would have to be a vile moron if we go by that story!
GM (after smacking me on the back of the head): Blasphemer!
My grandmother went to her grave still not believing that man landed on the moon. I could not convince her either that the sky was not a dome and that the rainbow was not made by god as a memory jogging device for himself.


If that had been my grandma I would have hit her back. Hard too. You don't get a pass to hit me just because you are an old woman.

[Leumas]

Re: free will

I myself can think of several different solutions for combating evil without interfering with anyone's free will, and I'm not even a supposedly perfect, just, and omniscient being. Being able to exercise free will and carrying out an action as a result of free will are two different things. If a tree falling on a rapist who is about to attack a woman is interfering with his free will, and thus mysteriously off limits to Gott, then I don't see how Gott could effect anything in reality, as believers claim he is able to do.

I once asked a Christian friend of mine to imagine a scenario in which a mugger comes up to him, puts a gun to his head, pulls the trigger, and nothing happens. The guns fails to fire. What would he do? "I would thank God," he responded. So apparently, y'all, Gott is perfectly able to keep firearms from going off and killing innocent people when he wants to. The problem, I guess, is getting him to want to.


AMAZING that you should mention that exact scenario.

In fact that is a TRUE story told to me by a REFORMED and SAVED born-again Christian who told me the story as his “witnessing” as to the SALVATION of Christ.

He was a drug dealing brigand who crossed some other drug dealer. He eventually was in a situation (according to him) where the other villain had his gun pointblank next to his temple and pulled the trigger. The gun misfired and he had time to bolt and run out of there. Later in prison he found Jesus and now is an active missionary for Jesus. He is fully convinced that Jesus saved him for the missionary work he was then doing.

He cites this story as his PERSONAL EXPERIENCE with the reality of Jesus as a personal savior and god.

Of course I was AFRAID to retort back to him (considering his past) that if Jesus saw fit to make a bullet misfire to save the life of a drug dealing scoundrel, why won’t he make the dick drop off a pedophiliac holy bugger before he penetrates the anus of an innocent boy. See this thread (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=7355314&postcount=1).

[Leumas]

If that had been my grandma I would have hit her back. Hard too. You don't get a pass to hit me just because you are an old woman.

Deut 21:18-21
A man might have a son who is stubborn and refuses to obey. This son does not obey his father or mother. They punish the son, but he still refuses to listen to them.

His father and mother must then take him to the leaders of the town at the town meeting place.

They must say to the leaders of the town: ‘Our son is stubborn and refuses to
obey. He does not do anything we tell him to do. He eats and he drinks too much.’

Then the men in the town must kill the son with stones. By doing this you will remove this evil from your group. Everyone in Israel will hear about this and be afraid.

[TheAnachronism]

AMAZING that you should mention that exact scenario.
...

He cites this story as his PERSONAL EXPERIENCE with the reality of Jesus as a personal savior and god.


I can understand feeling very fortunate after surviving a close call, but I'll never understand thanking Gott for one's survival when so many others were less fortunate.

I'm sure 10-year old Marissa Emkens (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2012432/BREAKING-NEWS-Seven-people-including-year-old-girl-shot-dead-gunman.html?ITO=1490) would have loved to thank Gott for saving her from some psychotic gunman. Unfortunately, Gott apparently wasn't in the mood that day. Maybe he was off saving some drug dealer somewhere?

[Leumas]

[FONT="Arial"][SIZE="2"][COLOR="Black"]

I can understand feeling very fortunate after surviving a close call, but I'll never understand thanking Gott for one's survival when so many others were less fortunate.


It is a very simple human trait that is especially heightened in theists..... EGOTISM and Self-centeredness. Of course that is in addition to acute and chronic inability to reason.

[Aepervius]

Annihilationist here.

But the basic answer is that whatever Hades is, it is the appropriate and proportional response for sin.

The correlary is that sinning is a very, very terrible thing, and humans are too wrapped up in it to understand that.

So let me read that again :
* it is the god creator which MADE the human this way
* he made them too wrapped in it to understand it
* he then judge them to eternal hell for something they can't understand

Evil bastard.

[dafydd]

We, as human beings were created to be gods and to rule over worlds .

Wrong.

[Aepervius]

Wrong.

Not as much wrong , as "assertion without evidence". Critically , he could still be right if he provide evidence of it. But I won't hold my breath on that.

[Belz...]

You're going in the right direction, but not nearly far enough. Their 'god' is a presumptuous bastard.

Well, he did create everything there is. That'll make just about anyone a bit cocky. In his case, though, he became a dick.

[Ethnikos]

Not as much wrong , as "assertion without evidence". Critically , he could still be right if he provide evidence of it. But I won't hold my breath on that.
I'm not Mormon so I wont be quoting Joseph Smith for proof but I think he was onto a concept that has something to it. We should be the seed to colonize the galaxies but we need to get out of the killing frenzies before that can happen.
There is that famous line from Jesus, "Ye are gods". There is a body of literature in the OT where that likely comes from that goes into more detail and it has to do with the government and the judicial aspects and generally taking care of who you are charged with providing the welfare of.

[Craig4]

You're going in the right direction, but not nearly far enough. Their 'god' is a presumptuous bastard.

Even if everyone else voted to be ruled by such a monstrosity, I would not be bound by their decision, for I have never ceded my authority to a group.

If their were a god (there's not) and it were anything like the judeochristianislamic god, I would be its implacable enemy.

It doesn't matter who would win - I love a good fight, and I'd be in the right.

I suppose that if there were some sort of referendum and the Sky Fairy or whatever got 2/3 of the vote you could say that's a mandate to govern. Of course we don't want errand boys here. The real thing would have to stand in the referendum.

[Travis]

Deut 21:18-21A man might have a son who is stubborn and refuses to obey. This son does not obey his father or mother. They punish the son, but he still refuses to listen to them.

His father and mother must then take him to the leaders of the town at the town meeting place.

They must say to the leaders of the town: ‘Our son is stubborn and refuses to
obey. He does not do anything we tell him to do. He eats and he drinks too much.’

Then the men in the town must kill the son with stones. By doing this you will remove this evil from your group. Everyone in Israel will hear about this and be afraid.

I guess it's a good thing I think The Bible is nothing more than the insane scribblings of delusional people trapped in a desert.

[Complexity]

I suppose that if there were some sort of referendum and the Sky Fairy or whatever got 2/3 of the vote you could say that's a mandate to govern. Of course we don't want errand boys here. The real thing would have to stand in the referendum.


I never feel bound by group decisions.

[Craig4]

A better question is why would a god allow people to be born in misery? I was in Kenya a while ago and was amazed at how religious (Pentecostal I think) the people in the slums were. If Jesus loved you, you'd have been born somewhere else.

[RandFan]

If I had free will I'd choose not to believe it.