Norwegian PM's office bombed / Youth camp spree killings

[Modesty78]

Does the 'in relation to the attacks' mean that these people were directly involved, or could it be that they're just cleaning house and going through some known extremist groups?

I assume the former. If the latter was the case, the police would stipulate a non-connection.

[timhau]

I assume the former. If the latter was the case, the police would stipulate a non-connection.

OK. I was just trying to figure out whether "We wouldn't have done this, if it hadn't been for Friday" was a possible interpretation.

I suppose we'll get more definite information at some point.

[Modesty78]

OK. I was just trying to figure out whether "We wouldn't have done this, if it hadn't been for Friday" was a possible interpretation.

I suppose we'll get more definite information at some point.

Now that I have finally read the whole thread, I'll be sure to update, whenever Danish news or any of the Norwegian sites I know of report anything about this.

[timhau]

Thanks, that will be appreciated. (I can sort of read Norwegian on the basis of the Swedish I learned at school, but it's slow going and involves a lot of guesswork.)

[Kuko 4000]

For those who want to know more, you can download the "manifesto" from here:

http://www.2shared.com/file/M-s-2fBD/2083-AEuropeanDeclarationofInd.html

[Leif Roar]

Norwegian police have arrested a group of people in Oslo, and confirm the arrests are connected to the attacks.

They have just said that it turned out not to be related to the attacks, so it looks like they acted on a suspicion or tip and it turned out to be nothing. (Or at least, nothing related.)

[Modesty78]

According to document.no, ABB has copied large parts of his manifest from the Unabomber Manifesto, though document.no says he has changed some of the wording to make it match his own beliefs (such as multiculturalists instead of lefties).

[icerat]

But they have now arrested a number of people (who have nothing to do with the kid they arrested yesterday) in relation to the attacks (this is confirmed). There isn't a lot of information about the arrests though.

He clearly had some serbian contacts, either online of in Oslo.

In his manifesto -

I am the Norwegian delegate to the founding meeting in London, England and ordinated as the 8th Justiciar Knight for the PCCTS, Knights Templar Europe. I joined the session after visiting one of the initial facilitators, a Serbian Crusader Commander and war hero, in Monrovia, Liberia.

He wouldn't have met this guy without contacts. I wouldn't be surprised though if "in Monrovia, Liberia" could be translated as "in a dilapidated area of Oslo" and "Serbian Crusader Commander" as "local serbian immigrant thug" or similar

ETA: just saw the new post saying no connection. thanks

[m-n-m]

Norwegian police have arrested a group of people in Oslo, and confirm the arrests are connected to the attacks.
http://www.vg.no/nyheter/innenriks/oslobomben/artikkel.php?artid=10080699
The article is in Norwegian.

According to vg.no the building is populated by eastern Europeans, but this isn't confirmed by police.


I followed your link and translated the page. Unless something went wrong during the translation, the article does not confirm any arrests, and the "detained" have been let go.


From the article (http://translate.google.com/translate?js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.vg.no%2Fnyheter%2Finnenriks%2Fo slobomben%2Fartikkel.php%3Fartid%3D10080699)
No explosives found at this location, and the detained persons are discharged. The police have no evidence to put these people in connection with the terrorist attack. "

eta: Ooops, sorry, didn't see Leif Roar's post.

[Modesty78]

I followed your link and translated the page. Unless something went wrong during the translation, the article does not confirm any arrests, and the "detained" have been let go.

The article has been updated, after I posted it. At the time they had detained a group of people, who were quickly released. Possibly they weren't arrested at all, but just held back for a short while.

[timhau]

The article has been updated, after I posted it. At the time they had detained a group of people, who were quickly released. Possibly they weren't arrested at all, but just held back for a short while.

Maybe they weren't eligible for Justiciar Knights, because four of them had girlfriends and the other two lived in their own apartments.

[timhau]

He clearly had some serbian contacts, either online of in Oslo.


... again, if we can trust his ramblings. Can we?

[m-n-m]

The article has been updated, after I posted it. At the time they had detained a group of people, who were quickly released. Possibly they weren't arrested at all, but just held back for a short while.

Yes I saw all that after I posted. Wasn't trying to pile on or anything. Please see my update.

[Travis]

No evidence he was a virgin


Oh......please tell me that there aren't attempts to tarnish virgins with the blood of this madman. I will not like that at all if that is true.

[Modesty78]

Yes I saw all that after I posted. Wasn't trying to pile on or anything. Please see my update.

No prob.

[Safe-Keeper]

Another of the wounded from the island massacre has been declared dead according to Norwegian media:( (http://www.bt.no/nyheter/innenriks/En-skadet-etter-Utya-skyting-dde-2542635.html).

Total death toll from the island is now 86, with at least five people still missing. We risk reaching a death toll of 90 from the shooting alone.

6.was a 31 yr old virgin b4 he got prostitutes night b4 he did the crime No evidence he was a virginA virgin who enjoys the company of prostitutes is kind of a contradiction, would you not say:D?

[timhau]

A virgin who enjoys the company of prostitutes is kind of a contradiction, would you not say:D?

Oh noes, his precious bodily fluids may have been polluted!

[Safe-Keeper]

All the steroids he took right before the attack probably contributed as well...

[roger]

No, you want revenge. We try not to do that here.

The Norwegian constitution enshrines the legal principle that laws should not be post-dated. We're not giving up that just because of this *******.

Anyway, this guy is not going to get punishment ("straff"). He's going to get containment ("forvaring"). Unlike punishment, containment can be extended repeatedly by judical review, for as long as necessary to protect society.
That's extraordinarily interesting (that's not a sarcastic response). I googled it on Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_imprisonment_in_Norway). Unfortunately the article is short; I wonder if it has actually ever been implemented, given that they state that is is theoretically possible to have a life sentence - that implies it has never yet happened.

I've never been one for 'punishment', so your system appeals, but I'm not aware of any psychopath that was ever cured, either.

I have a lot more to muse about, but it would constitute thread drift, and this topic deserves better than that. Anyway, thanks for the information.

[Eddie Dane]

Oh......please tell me that there aren't attempts to tarnish virgins with the blood of this madman. I will not like that at all if that is true.

Dude,

What you need is a holiday in the Netherlands.

Hang on for the Euro to lose value vs the Dollar, shouldn't be long now.

[Eddie Dane]

Looks like Geert Wilders doesn't need to feel bad about being mentioned in the manifesto.

He also goes into Theo van Gogh an Hirsi Ali.

A mass murderer admiring Hirsi Ali is just silly, and he evidently didn't know much about Theo Van Gogh.

[blauregen]

Anyone know this Vienna School of Thought? He really liked it. He mentions writing a book a lot, and he explained the school like this:


The german magazine 'Der Spiegel' links it to the 'Gates of Vienna'-Blog, where he apparently participated.

[Taarkin]

Is this just monoculturism for monoculturism's sake? Most xenophobes want to kick out immigrants because they think immigrants are evil, but seems to want to kick out the immigrants because they're immigrants.
say what you will about the tenets of national socialism, at least it's an ethos

I'm glad he's still alive. It'll be a lot harder for conspiracy nuts to call this a cultural ziono-marxist false flag.

[Taarkin]

Looks like some more nutters are stepping up to the plate. (http://uaf.org.uk/2011/07/luton-mosque-attacked-smashed-windows-edl-graffiti-and-swastika/)
Racists have attacked a mosque in Luton, breaking windows and leaving spraypainted graffiti including a swastika and the initials ‘EDL’.

[Undesired Walrus]

There is so much information coming out about this man I don't know where to start. Is there a comprehensive summary of what we know about him so far floating about?

[Undesired Walrus]

So "punishment fitting the crime" doesn't happen in Norway?

If you want to put him on an Island and have 90 teenagers hunt him down various firearms, the country you live in probably isn't worth defending.

However, I can sense a long argument coming, so please pre-empt an inevitable split thread by taking it elsewhere!

[Perfume V]

According to document.no, ABB has copied large parts of his manifest from the Unabomber Manifesto, though document.no says he has changed some of the wording to make it match his own beliefs (such as multiculturalists instead of lefties).

Heh. The intellectual superiority of the Aryan Supermen strikes again. Say what you want about Kaczynski, at least he could be bothered to write his own manifesto.

[Taarkin]

Where's that copypaste from?

[Schrodinger's Cat]

crazy will always find a way to break our hearts.

Don't let crazy win.

It's so true. This is just unfathomable to me. My thoughts are with Norway.

[WildCat]

Let me copy something I wrote (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1711640&postcount=155) on another forum.
Oh, you're young. Here's a frightening thought for you: the older you get, the faster time goes. And there's nothing you can do about it. :(

By the time you get to your mid-40s (like me) it's hard to tell whether a memory you have is 5 years old or 15 years old.

[icerat]

I'm working from memory here, since I forgot where I read it, but some witnesses said that he was apparently talking into an ear piece, and others describe him as babling and laughing and making random coments as he fired his weapons.

It seems to me that the third party may have been his ear crickets.

Listening to his iPod I suspect. He has recommended music for the attack listed in his manifesto

[Johny2x4]

Of course the Left has wasted no time slamming Christians, referring to some followers of our Lord and Savior as "extremists." Never mind that none of this would have ever happened if not for the Islamization of Europe.

Isn't it funny how when the United States was attacked these left-wingers were praised for "pointing out" that a history of meddling, supporting "dictatorships," could explain why religious fanatics crashed planes into the two towers. Meanwhile we cannot point out that maybe, just maybe, allowing the Arab hordes to invade our land -- via cultural Marxism -- contributed to a climate that drove one man -- not a real Christian, by the way -- to make these attacks. Moreover, it's irresponsible to smear him as a "right-winger" and not for reasons a poster above brilliantly identifies (right-wing by European standards = Obama supporter). No, this was a crazy man, and it's just a coincidence he targeted a Labor Party youth camp consisting of statists who would have us commit cultural and economic suicide.

Nope.

[Safe-Keeper]

Where's that copypaste from?
The one in my post? Read the post more closely.;)

[JudeBrando]

UPDATE: Craig confirms:
"I have confirmed the Google cache on Jul 22, 2011 23:52:36 GMT of the Facebook profile page supports the theory of the adding of Christian/Conservative (see below).
Our PDF printout from the Facebook profile was done Jul 23 01:39 GMT, and the profile was deleted soon afterwards by Facebook, so how was a detained Anders Behring Breivik able to change it?"

http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2011/07/who-added-christian-and-conservative-to-norway-shooters-facebook-page-yesterday.html
What is this BS?
JB, you need a better source of news. This is total crap.
Excuse my back hand, but that site is actually populated by terrorist sympathizers and known perjurors..
These, and the other irrelevantly indignant commenters left unquoted, entirely missed the point, which is, again:
...so how was a detained Anders Behring Breivik able to change it?If he didn't, because he couldn't, who did and why?

[Safe-Keeper]

From the page you linked to:
The first picture looks like when you are logged into facebook. The 2nd screenshot looks like when you are not logged in so it could be that some information is only visible to facebook users.

There, found a perfectly likely explanation and it took me all of ten seconds and precisely no web browsing beyond the page that was already loaded.

Of course, this misses the real point, which is, why do you ask? Are you unaware of all the other material, and his own statements, where he identifies himself as a Christian?

C.T. is over there:rolleyes: ----->

[Safe-Keeper]

A very touching read. Thank you so much.

Then watching a couple of folks here actually try and defend this massacre? Pathetic. I must've missed those. Please direct me to those posts, m-n-m.If such posts exist, I would like to see them, too (even if they're just "you were asking for it with the way you were dressed"-type of nonsense). Could you PM me?

[Rufo]

Ted Kaczynski was not against "lefties."
It's understandable if you don't bother to read his entire manifesto, but he gets into his problems with "lefties" very early on:
One of the most widespread manifestations of the craziness of our world is leftism, so a discussion of the psychology of leftism can serve as an introduction to the discussion of the problems of modern society in general.
Mass murderers rarely side with the moderates on their side of the spectrum. I haven't read any of Breivik's manifesto yet, but he appears to be no different.

[JudeBrando]

Nobody changed it. You've already been told how the discrepancy likely occurred (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=7400508&postcount=697).

UPDATE: Craig confirms:
"I have confirmed the Google cache on Jul 22, 2011 23:52:36 GMT of the Facebook profile page supports the theory of the adding of Christian/Conservative (see below).
Our PDF printout from the Facebook profile was done Jul 23 01:39 GMT, and the profile was deleted soon afterwards by Facebook, so how was a detained Anders Behring Breivik able to change it?"

"Likely"?!

It's understandable if you don't bother to read his entire manifesto, but he gets into his problems with "lefties" very early on:

Mass murderers rarely side with the moderates on their side of the spectrum. I haven't read any of Breivik's manifesto yet, but he appears to be no different.

He was against everyone and everything in favor of a technologically advanced and progressing society. Some of his ideas could very fairly be categorized as environmental extremism and, if anything, that is very lefty, but I will not pursue this any further, even if anyone else does again.

[DC]

"Likely"?!

do you also read his Manifesto? it makes clear he is a Christian or at least he himself believes to be one.

[leftysergeant]

"Likely"?!No. What is your source? Atlas Shrugs? Useless site. Nobody there we have any reason to trust.

[Dayan81]

I imagine that there will be hearing, investigations, and possibly even rolled-heads, due to the 1.5 hours it took the police to reach this island.

Norway is not the North Pole. It should not take the police 1.5 hours to get anywhere in Europe, when a gunman is murdering children.

[USEagle13]

I imagine that there will be hearing, investigations, and possibly even rolled-heads, due to the 1.5 hours it took the police to reach this island.

Norway is not the North Pole. It should not take the police 1.5 hours to get anywhere in Europe, when a gunman is murdering children.

It was on an Island with hardly anything on it (pretty sure they had no contengincey plans)

Too many factors came in to play. They had to get boats. Then put equipment and aid workers in boats. Also you had to factor in they were dealing with chaos already happening in the city.

It takes time to organize then reorganize etc. They tried their best.

[Rufo]

I think this article was worth reading: Norway is Passing the Test of Terror (http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/eirik-bergesen/norway-is-passing-the-tes_b_908008.html?ref=fb&src=sp) by Eirik Bergesen.
That made my day. :)

I guess it's too early to really make any calls about how this is going to affect Norway, but one of the first things I feared when I heard of this was that the open, friendly society would be looked upon as a weakness. I'm glad to hear norwegians are not letting an absurd anomaly like this ruin what they should be proud of.

He was against everyone and everything in favor of a technologically advanced and progressing society. Some of his ideas could very fairly be categorized as environmental extremism and, if anything, that is very lefty, but I will not pursue this any further, even if anyone else does again.
Fair enough, as long as you understand that Kaczynski did bash leftists a lot in his manifesto, and that the statement you originally objected to was credible.

[Dayan81]

It was on an Island with hardly anything on it (pretty sure they had no contengincey plans)

Too many factors came in to play. They had to get boats. Then put equipment and aid workers in boats. Also you had to factor in they were dealing with chaos already happening in the city.

It takes time to organize then reorganize etc. They tried their best.

The Oslo SWAT team does not possess helicopters for emergency or terrorist situations, to facilitate a quick response?

[sophia8]

The few Masons I know never talk about it nor want to. You never see them at their lodges nor vehicles at the lodges. Most of the lodges I have seen don't even have windows.
I only know one Mason, but he's perfectly happy to talk about it. He says its pretty much a business networking club.
BTW, if they don't have vehicles at their lodges, how do they get to their meetings there?
Also, there seem to be plenty of Lodges with windows, if this Google Image search (http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=mason+lodges&hl=en&cr=countryUK|countryGB&tbs=ctr:countryUK|countryGB&prmd=ivnsm&source=lnms&tbm=isch&ei=tnMsTqSmE5KwhAeXt8GqCw&sa=X&oi=mode_link&ct=mode&cd=2&ved=0CDAQ_AUoAQ&biw=1280&bih=802#hl=en&cr=countryUK|countryGB&tbs=ctr:countryUK|countryGB&tbm=isch&sa=1&q=masonic+lodges&oq=masonic+lodges&aq=0&aqi=g2&aql=&gs_sm=c&gs_upl=14073l14767l0l16834l2l2l0l0l0l0l271l437l0.1 .1l2&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=e55cc8b4624dd449&biw=1280&bih=802) can be trusted.


Also, WOMEN are not allowed to be a Mason yet ppl criticize religous groups if they don't allow women to be priests or bishops.
Actually, women can be Masons - they have their own women-only groups.
censored Edited for personalization.

[Leif Roar]

I imagine that there will be hearing, investigations, and possibly even rolled-heads, due to the 1.5 hours it took the police to reach this island.

The first report to the police arrived at 17:26. The first policemen arrive on the mainland side at 17:52, but must wait for boat. The swat team from Oslo arrives at the mainland side at 18:09. They go ashore at the island at 18:25. The attacker was apprehended at 18:27.

With the distances involved, it seems difficult to shave substantially off the response times.

[JudeBrando]

It was on an Island with hardly anything on it (pretty sure they had no contengincey plans)

Too many factors came in to play. They had to get boats. Then put equipment and aid workers in boats. Also you had to factor in they were dealing with chaos already happening in the city.

It takes time to organize then reorganize etc. They tried their best.

Police had Columbine High School surrounded for an hour without going in to stop the shooting. Rarely are these situations dealt with satisfactorily in hindsight. No one seems to be adequately prepared and responsive for such madness. Good people are generally not prepared for immediate response in the face of long-planned evil.

[Leif Roar]

The Oslo SWAT team does not possess helicopters for emergency or terrorist situations, to facilitate a quick response?

No.

[Safe-Keeper]

We've got one police helicopter for the entire nation.
Then again, we also have a ridiculously low crime rate and a prison population of roughly 3000.

[Leif Roar]

We've got one police helicopter for the entire nation.

The Oslo police helicopter doesn't have any transport capability. It's an eye-in-the-sky thing.

Helicopter transport can be requested from the military, but those helicopters aren't stationed in Oslo and it would probably have ended up taking even longer.

ETA: Actually, I'm not sure the police helicopter was deployed to Utøya. Rescue helicopters were.

[Dayan81]

The Oslo police helicopter doesn't have any transport capability. It's an eye-in-the-sky thing.

Helicopter transport can be requested from the military, but those helicopters aren't stationed in Oslo and it would probably have ended up taking even longer.

ETA: Actually, I'm not sure the police helicopter was deployed to Utøya. Rescue helicopters were.

It appears it is now time for the police in Norway to have quick access to helicopters in case something like this happens again.

Had they reached the island after an hour instead of 1.5 hours, the body-count might have been reduced by a third.

[icerat]

"Likely"?!

Oh good grief. He didn't change it. That better?

He had two profiles. One had the "conservative christian" description. One didn't.

One was deleted fairly quickly, one was deleted later. Even the blog you linked to suggested having 2 profiles might be the reason for the discrepancy.

He was against everyone and everything in favor of a technologically advanced and progressing society. Some of his ideas could very fairly be categorized as environmental extremism and, if anything, that is very lefty, but I will not pursue this any further, even if anyone else does again.

Oh right, like the parts where he republished rants against "climategate". Uhuh.

[USEagle13]

That is completely out of line. Moderators??

Yeah they jus moved a bunch of my posts. They play favorites all the time here.

[Leif Roar]

Had they reached the island after an hour instead of 1.5 hours, the body-count might have been reduced by a third.

They did reach the island within an hour.

[Safe-Keeper]

New, hopefully unrelated development: the centre of the village of Måløy has been evacuated after a "suspicious package" has been found. A bomb squad is on their way.
Crossing my fingers it's nothing.

http://www.nrk.no/nyheter/distrikt/nrk_sogn_og_fjordane/1.7725630 (Norwegian)

In brighter news, the Vikings are retaking their city.

http://gfx.nrk.no/_-qRQ00sEdz2BfA4FQF4FAo97NEYHc5oKu3eyxBx2YUQ.jpg

http://gfx.nrk.no/fUzPYZw7f7PJYcKyGtaqaAKxJ8Rvo59Gvp83nV8G8sDQ.jpg

http://gfx.nrk.no/2W8jQ-nEaqzmBLosVy_-HQM4NF5_fO3LlCeRf10qKnPg.jpg

http://gfx.nrk.no/F7i5gof2y937flqVJy2kfw2jB1uvVetzvmT76rrpVHRA.jpg

Hear them roar.

[Information Analyst]

The Oslo SWAT team does not possess helicopters for emergency or terrorist situations, to facilitate a quick response?
Well, given that there's only one police helicopter in the whole country, probably not.

[Information Analyst]

The first report to the police arrived at 17:26. The first policemen arrive on the mainland side at 17:52, but must wait for boat. The swat team from Oslo arrives at the mainland side at 18:09. They go ashore at the island at 18:25. The attacker was apprehended at 18:27.

With the distances involved, it seems difficult to shave substantially off the response times.
Ah, so 61 minutes, not "1.5 hours".

[USEagle13]

I only know one Mason, but he's perfectly happy to talk about it. He says its pretty much a business networking club.
BTW, if they don't have vehicles at their lodges, how do they get to their meetings there?
Also, there seem to be plenty of Lodges with windows, if this Google Image search (http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=mason+lodges&hl=en&cr=countryUK|countryGB&tbs=ctr:countryUK|countryGB&prmd=ivnsm&source=lnms&tbm=isch&ei=tnMsTqSmE5KwhAeXt8GqCw&sa=X&oi=mode_link&ct=mode&cd=2&ved=0CDAQ_AUoAQ&biw=1280&bih=802#hl=en&cr=countryUK|countryGB&tbs=ctr:countryUK|countryGB&tbm=isch&sa=1&q=masonic+lodges&oq=masonic+lodges&aq=0&aqi=g2&aql=&gs_sm=c&gs_upl=14073l14767l0l16834l2l2l0l0l0l0l271l437l0.1 .1l2&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=e55cc8b4624dd449&biw=1280&bih=802) can be trusted.

Actually, women can be Masons - they have their own women-only groups.
censored Edited for personalization.

I know some lodges do but the ones around here don't. That is the 1st time I ever heard about women's only Mason groups. Why can't they be in the ones the guys are in?

Yeah my grandmother told me that my uncle does alot of community activism and service. She said if you are in the Masons you have to beinvolved in the community is some positive way.

In that killers picture I had seen that was posted from a link somewhere earlier in this thread he was wearing a masonic apron and uniform.

Maybe that psycho path is part of some underground terroristic Masonic order like the Black Hand was during and after WWI.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackhand

The group encompassed a range of ideological outlooks, from conspiratorially-minded army officers to idealistic youths, sometimes tending towards republicanism, despite the acquisition of nationalistic royal circles in its activities (the movement's leader, Col. Dragutin Dimitrijević or "Apis," had been instrumental in the June 1903 coup which had brought King Petar Karađorđević to the Serbian throne following 45 years of rule by the rival Obrenović dynasty). The group was denounced as nihilist by the Austro-Hungarian press and compared to the Russian People's Will and the Chinese Assassination Corps which, like the Black Hand, used assassination to achieve anti-imperialist political goals.

check that link guys. This is totally on subject. It could be some other group using a useful idiot.

[George152]

It was on an Island with hardly anything on it (pretty sure they had no contengincey plans)

Too many factors came in to play. They had to get boats. Then put equipment and aid workers in boats. Also you had to factor in they were dealing with chaos already happening in the city.

It takes time to organize then reorganize etc. They tried their best.

And how long does it take to launch a rescue helicopter?
Everywhere else in the civilised world every accident victim is within 30 minutes of rescue
Or a military helicopter?
I suspect the real reason was disbelief that some-one could commit such an evil act...
The death penalty looks to be a good option at this point !

[Information Analyst]

It appears it is now time for the police in Norway to have quick access to helicopters in case something like this happens again.
So they should spend a massive and disproportionate amount of money on soemthing the like of which will almost certainly not happened again?
Had they reached the island after an hour instead of 1.5 hours, the body-count might have been reduced by a third.
Except that they "reached the island" and detained the suspect in 61 minutes, which kind of rains on your diatribe.

[Tricky]

A number of rule 0's, rule 12's and rule 11's moved to AAH, and a sprinkling of infractions handed out. Keep it on topic, please, and refrain from personal attacks. Also remember that the political aspects, particularly in regard to Norway, were split to another thread (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=214992). If you wish to comment on those, that is where you should post.

[Leif Roar]

Everywhere else in the civilised world every accident victim is within 30 minutes of rescue

You have unrealistic expectations of response times.

[bookitty]

And how long does it take to launch a rescue helicopter?
Everywhere else in the civilised world every accident victim is within 30 minutes of rescue
Or a military helicopter?
I suspect the real reason was disbelief that some-one could commit such an evil act...
The death penalty looks to be a good option at this point !

Also many, many resources were already busy at the bomb site.

I would also hazard a guess that the police had been fending off panicked phone calls since the blast happened. The phones would have been ringing non-stop. Weeding out which ones were fake, which were simply citizens in need of reassuring and which were real would take time.

[George152]

Well, given that there's only one police helicopter in the whole country, probably not.

So why do you omit the fact that the military have 12 Westland Sea Kings doing SAR ?

[Rufo]

[...]
He was against everyone and everything in favor of a technologically advanced and progressing society. Some of his ideas could very fairly be categorized as environmental extremism and, if anything, that is very lefty, but I will not pursue this any further, even if anyone else does again.
Oh right, like the parts where he republished rants against "climategate". Uhuh.
That bit referred to Kaczynski, the Unabomber. Sorry about the derail.

[Leif Roar]

So why do you omit the fact that the military have 12 Westland Sea Kings doing SAR ?

Because none of those are stationed in Oslo.

[Dayan81]

Because none of those are stationed in Oslo.

I think in this time of common-sense hightened security due to the fear & possibility of terrorism, all police departments in major cities in the West should have a Blackhawk or similiar-type of helicopter ready for SWAT or EMS teams to be used at a moment's notice.

[DC]

I think in this time of common-sense hightened security due to the fear & possibility of terrorism, all police departments in major cities in the West should have a Blackhawk or similiar-type of helicopter ready for SWAT or EMS teams to be used at a moment's notice.

we don't even have one police helicopter.

[NoahFence]

Everywhere else in the civilised world every accident victim is within 30 minutes of rescue

I suggest going to Youtube and looking for a show called "I shouldn't be alive"

Typically, their rescue's are on the order of days or weeks.

[USEagle13]

Post has been moved, but thank you USEagle13, for trying to follow moderator directions. We sincerely appreciate it.
Sorry mods. I am reporting myslef so you can move this to the correct thread. I did not know it was split b4 I posted this crap.

[USEagle13]

And how long does it take to launch a rescue helicopter?
Everywhere else in the civilised world every accident victim is within 30 minutes of rescue
Or a military helicopter?
I suspect the real reason was disbelief that some-one could commit such an evil act...
The death penalty looks to be a good option at this point !

Do they even have fuely fueled helicopters on standby like the USA does in every major and even some small cities?


I agree with the death penalty thing. He does not deserve to live. I seriously doubt that in his 31 yrs of living he has done anything positive for his country or society in general. Only.....evil.

[Dayan81]

......God knows, our military and law-enforcement response to 9/11 hasn't really paid off all that well, either, even though billions of dollars have been spent.

How can you say this, when we have prevented several terror attacks, due to our increased intelligence & military operations here & abroad, since 9-11?

America is a great example of how increased military, police, & civilian preparedness and action can increase a society's level of safety & security.

[Ryokan]

So far, the political consensus, from left to right, in Norway is that this attack shouldn't change our society in any way - that we like our society as it is.

[AdMan]

So far, the political consensus, from left to right, in Norway is that this attack shouldn't change our society in any way - that we like our society as it is.


Good. :)

[Ryokan]

Here's part of an interview with one of the Utøya survivors on CNN:

http://www.vgtv.no/#!id=42454

:)

[DC]

So far, the political consensus, from left to right, in Norway is that this attack shouldn't change our society in any way - that we like our society as it is.

good :)

[Safe-Keeper]

So far, the political consensus, from left to right, in Norway is that this attack shouldn't change our society in any way - that we like our society as it is. +1

[USEagle13]

So far, the political consensus, from left to right, in Norway is that this attack shouldn't change our society in any way - that we like our society as it is.

I agree 100%

[Rolfe]

Everywhere else in the civilised world every accident victim is within 30 minutes of rescue!


Your experience of the "civilised world" seems extraordinarily limited.

Rolfe.

[Rolfe]

we don't even have one police helicopter.


You do have a substantial proportion of the ordinary people armed to the bloody teeth though, to be fair.

Though I don't know if that would have helped any.

Rolfe.

[DC]

You do have a substantial proportion of the ordinary people armed to the bloody teeth though, to be fair.

Though I don't know if that would have helped any.

Rolfe.

i dont think so as they usualy let them at home.

as it should be in the civilized world :D

[citizenzen]

I think in this time of common-sense hightened security due to the fear & possibility of terrorism, all police departments in major cities in the West should have a Blackhawk or similiar-type of helicopter ready for SWAT or EMS teams to be used at a moment's notice.


In this idiotic political climate, with Republicans dead-set against raising taxes, many state and local budgets are being cut to the bone and many localities are laying off police.

So I wouldn't count seeing Blackhawk helicopters anytime in the near future.

[leftysergeant]

You do have a substantial proportion of the ordinary people armed to the bloody teeth though, to be fair.

Though I don't know if that would have helped any.

Just about everywhere, even in places where there is legal concealed carry of firearms, they are discouraged at youth gatherings. I couldn't even carry mine into the building when I went to pick my son up from school. It had to be secured in my vehicle.

[citizenzen]

I couldn't even carry mine into the building when I went to pick my son up from school. It had to be secured in my vehicle.


Awwwww. :(

You poor, deprived, defenseless man.

[Rolfe]

i dont think so as they usualy let them at home.

as it should be in the civilized world :D


Just about everywhere, even in places where there is legal concealed carry of firearms, they are discouraged at youth gatherings. I couldn't even carry mine into the building when I went to pick my son up from school. It had to be secured in my vehicle.


I was actually thinking of having effective response relatively close by. Switzerland has a genuine militia, who might have been in a position to get in there and do something even though there were no police helicopters. I don't know though, because there would have been no command structure. I was wondering whether it might have helped.

Having random gun-freaks "packing heat" is the last thing that would help anyone.

Rolfe.

[DC]

I was actually thinking of having effective response relatively close by. Switzerland has a genuine militia, who might have been in a position to get in there and do something even though there were no police helicopters. I don't know though, because there would have been no command structure. I was wondering whether it might have helped.

Having random gun-freaks "packing heat" is the last thing that would help anyone.

Rolfe.

i think you overestimate our militia. the police would be faster and trained to do those kind of things.

[Ryokan]

Rolfe, Norway also has a militia, Heimevernet/Home Guard, who keeps their combat gear and weapons at home. You can what one of them looks like in my avatar.. :)

Oslo HV was mobilized after the bombing to secure locations in Oslo to free up police to investigate the incident, but they are not and will most likely never be, mobilized to deal with terrorism. They're not trained for it, and we have specialized police units for that. Terrorism in Norway is seen as a police issue, not a military issue.

And even if militia had mobilized to deal with this guy, there's not much they could've done. The shooting was on a remote island off the coast.

[Rolfe]

I've heard a criminologist say the man is sane. I'll be interested to observe how this debate pans out. He's obviously intelligent, and cunning. That doesn't mean he's sane though.

The juvenile fantasy he was playing out doesn't sit well with "sane" to me. He thought he could write the future political manifesto for Europe, and even America, down to prescribing the uniforms and the medals, all by himself, and the minute everyone heard about this they would immediately hail him as leader or something?

How is this not some sort of mental illness?

Rolfe.

[Rolfe]

Rolfe, Norway also has a militia, Heimevernet/Home Guard, who keeps their combat gear and weapons at home. You can see their uniform in my avatar.. :)

Oslo HV was mobilized to secure locations in Oslo to free up police to investigate the incident, but they are not and will most likely never be, mobilized to deal with terrorism. They're not trained for it, and we have specialized police units for that. Terrorism in Norway is seen as a police issue, not a military issue.

And even if militia had mobilized to deal with this guy, there's not much they could've done. The shooting was on a remote island off the coast.


I don't think it would have played out much differently here. We don't even have armed police. Remember Derek Bird drove around on a rampage for hours and the cops couldn't catch up with him. And he wasn't too bright - just set off on a spree.

Set off a bomb at Holyrood, wait a couple of hours and then attack a Labour Party youth camp on an island in the depths of the countryside - your only problem would be that there's no way you'd find 600 people in the Labour Party youth wing.

I think the criticisms of the Norwegian response are probably unfair, though no doubt there will be an inquiry.

Rolfe.

[DC]

I've heard a criminologist say the man is sane. I'll be interested to observe how this debate pans out. He's obviously intelligent, and cunning. That doesn't mean he's sane though.

The juvenile fantasy he was playing out doesn't sit well with "sane" to me. He thought he could write the future political manifesto for Europe, and even America, down to prescribing the uniforms and the medals, all by himself, and the minute everyone heard about this they would immediately hail him as leader or something?

How is this not some sort of mental illness?

Rolfe.

he must be a very special kind of sane when he is sane...

and he destroyed his US exrteme far right market by calling them European.

[Ryokan]

As far as I know, sane is both a law term and a medical, and they don't mean exactly the same. This guy certainly has some mental issues, but is he sane enough to be held accountable for his crimes? Most probably.

[Rolfe]

Didn't he call them non-European? No don't tell me, the slimeball doesn't deserve to have his words read even in mockery.

Rolfe.

[Ryokan]

We don't even have armed police.

Neither does Norway.

[Rolfe]

As far as I know, sane is both a law term and a medical, and they don't mean exactly the same. This guy certainly has some mental issues, but is he sane enough to be held accountable for his crimes? Most probably.


I was wondering about the concept of criminally insane. That's how we deal with the real foaming-at-the-mouth whackjobs who can never be safely returned to society, even if they've served the maximum term for whatever they actually did.

http://www.tsh.scot.nhs.uk/

Rolfe.

[Ryokan]

I think the criticisms of the Norwegian response are probably unfair, though no doubt there will be an inquiry.

Think of the chaos going on at the time. It took 61 minutes from the police was aware of the shooting, at a remote island with no easy access, until anti-terror police had the man in custody.

It doesn't sound too bad to me.

[DC]

Neither does Norway.

oh i didn't know that. then i really can't imagine a faster respose as there was.

[Rolfe]

Me neither. People are understandably shocked, and ask questions, but I doubt if many systems could have done significantly better under the circumstances.

Again, remember the Derek Bird rampage. And Michael Ryan come to that.

Rolfe.

[Ryokan]

Media now reports that the boat carrying the anti-terror police had engine problems on its way to the island, losing them 10 minutes in response time.

[Hawk one]

Think of the chaos going on at the time. It took 61 minutes from the police was aware of the shooting, at a remote island with no easy access, until anti-terror police had the man in custody.

It doesn't sound too bad to me.

Add the (already mentioned, but bears being repeated) fact that there was still chaos abound due to the bomb he set off earlier, which obviously tied up a lot of resources as it was.

ETA: And with regards to this post (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=7402285#post7402285), I saw an even better poll (in Norwegian, so not much use taking a screenshot) that had the same question, but the two alternatives were "no" and "nope".

[citizenzen]

That doesn't mean he's sane though.


Seems to me that he is quite sane.

He understood the acts he was going to undertake were horrific.

From wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insanity_defense) ...

In criminal trials, the insanity defense is where the defendant claims that because of mental health problems (psychiatric illness or mental handicap) they were not responsible for their actions.

From what I've read so far, I don't think there's any doubt in his mind that he was completely responsible for his actions.

[Ryokan]

Media also reports that his arraignment will be closed to media and the public, most likely to not enable him to use the occasion to promote his ideology.

I think that's a bit sad. I think the entire nation should be able to hear how he justifies what he has done, so that everyone knows what kind of people we are up against.

[DC]

Media also reports that his arraignment will be closed to media and the public, most likely to not enable him to use the occasion to promote his ideology.

I think that's a bit sad. I think the entire nation should be able to hear how he justifies what he has done, so that everyone knows what kind of people we are up against.

not sure, public arraignment could trigger other idiots wanting the same "fame"

[citizenzen]

not sure, public arraignment could trigger other idiots wanting the same "fame"


While that's always a risk, I think openness is usually the best option.

We do need to expose his ideology to the light of day and show why it's wrong.

Here's a man who murdered over 90 people because he couldn't share his country with 3% of the population.

3%. Are you *********** kidding me?

[case#46cw39]

Media also reports that his arraignment will be closed to media and the public, most likely to not enable him to use the occasion to promote his ideology.

I think that's a bit sad. I think the entire nation should be able to hear how he justifies what he has done, so that everyone knows what kind of people we are up against.

I think we already know why, and how wide spread it is, and the discussions can begin immediately.


"Europe's resurgent far right focuses on immigration, multiculturalism
http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/europe...ss_igoogle_cnn

"Breivik claimed that "cultural Marxism" had morally degraded Europe, and purportedly wrote: "You cannot defeat Islamisation or halt/reverse the Islamic colonization of Western Europe without first removing the political doctrines manifested through multiculturalism/cultural Marxism." Elsewhere he said: "One of the most widespread manifestations of the craziness of our world is multiculturalism." ... Political parties opposing immigration and integration have done well in elections in recent years -- and beyond them, neo-fascist and "national socialist" groups have become well-established across the continent, including in Germany, Belgium, the Netherlands, Italy, Scandinavia, Hungary and the United Kingdom.

Without espousing such apocalyptic views, far-right political parties in Scandinavia have tapped into this anger -- and reaped dividends at the ballot box. The far-right Danish People's Party (Dansk Folkerpartis) has 25 seats in parliament; the Sweden Democrats Party won 5.7% of the vote in the 2010 election. In Finland, the True Finns party made a dramatic breakthrough in April's elections, gaining more than 1 in 5 votes.
Beyond Scandinavia, France's National Front won 15% of votes in the first round of regional elections in March 2010, even though it was not on the ballot in the entire country. President Nicolas Sarkozy's party only managed 2% better.

In the Netherlands, Geert Wilders (a politician admired by Breivik in his writings) has successfully stirred up hatred against Islam and the establishment; his Party for Freedom has become the country's third largest, with 24 seats in the Dutch parliament. Wilders has compared the Quran to Hitler's Mein Kampf and has tried to have it banned in the Netherlands. And in 2009, the British National Party won enough votes to send two members to the European Parliament, a result that profoundly shocked the political establishment in the UK."


So the first question would be his proposition:

"You cannot halt/reverse the Islamic colonization of Western Europe without first removing the political doctrines manifested through multiculturalism/cultural Marxism."

Is this even true? Would multiculturalism automatically lead to "Islamic colonization"? What about the established Basic Human Rights? Would the West ever throw them out? And how about the fact that in Democracies you don't shoot the political opposition (the majority rules and has to be persuaded)? Can all wings, parties, and religions uphold these fundamental principles of Democracy? These are the questions I think the people of Europe will find themselves discussing with or without more input from him.

[icerat]

sad .... it's going to get worse. More than 40 still listed as missing (http://www.nrk.no/nyheter/norge/1.7724498)

Some are possibly double-ups/unidentified but the majority are probably not .... :(

[Kestrel]

Me neither. People are understandably shocked, and ask questions, but I doubt if many systems could have done significantly better under the circumstances.

Again, remember the Derek Bird rampage. And Michael Ryan come to that.

The Columbine shootings started around 11:20 am. It was after 1 pm when the first SWAT officers entered the building. They took as long as the Norwegians and they didn't need to find a working boat to cross to an island.

[citizenzen]

These are the questions I think the people of Europe will find themselves discussing with or without more input from him.


I'd love to know why people think a country belongs to them.

Everything changes. The world in 1,000 years won't look the same as it does today.

The inability to accept change, and adapt to it, is an incredible disadvantage.

This can be one of the lessons learned through this tragedy.

[Ryokan]

Media reports that Breivik has explained to the police that he belongs to an international Christian martial order that fights against Islamic oppression, but that he was completely alone when it came to the terror attack. He says he's in contact with the other members (Not after his arrest, of course), and says he's a representative of the organization, and a knight.

http://www.vg.no/nyheter/innenriks/oslobomben/artikkel.php?artid=10080706

So far, what he has told the police matches his manifesto.

[Dayan81]

Media reports that Breivik has explained to the police that he belongs to an international Christian martial order that fights against Islamic oppression, but that he was completely alone when it came to the terror attack. He says he's in contact with the other members (Not after his arrest, of course), and says he's a representative of the organization, and a knight...

A thorough psychological review of this young man is clearly in order.

[Safe-Keeper]

Yeah, we don't exactly sleep with loaded shotguns under our pillows. They're for hunting and recreation and whatnot. The idea of using firearms for self-defence has never been taken seriously here. Not even our cops carry guns.

EDIT:
The juvenile fantasy he was playing out doesn't sit well with "sane" to me. He thought he could write the future political manifesto for Europe, and even America, down to prescribing the uniforms and the medals, all by himself, and the minute everyone heard about this they would immediately hail him as leader or something?
Pardon the Godwin, but it reminds me of Hitler and his attempted coup. "The revolution has begun! Today me march upon the... oh, ****, cops!"

[Ryokan]

There's now a debate in the media whether they should publish his manifesto or not. I say go ahead, the public needs to the what kind of people we're dealing with.

A Norwegian researcher on violent behaviour, Ragnhild Bjørnebekk, says to the media that the manifesto is going to be in the hands of people we don't want to have this anyway, so it's important that the general public also gets to see it.

[Complexity]

There's now a debate in the media whether they should publish his manifesto or not. I say go ahead, the public needs to the what kind of people we're dealing with.


Well, it isn't as though it could be kept secret, now...

I think it is important for people to see how these people think.

[Ryokan]

Aftenposten has an interview with his defense lawyer. (http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=no&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.aftenposten.no%2Fnyheter%2Firik s%2Farticle4182902.ece)

I linked to the article through Google Translate instead of translating it myself, because of the size of the article.. The biggest mistranslation I can see is that the lawyer is called Lippestad, not Lippe City.. :)

The main thing here is that he says he will not be part of promoting Breivik's political message in the courtroom.

ETA: He says that it's random that he was chosen as his defense lawyer, but I think not. Lippestad's most known case was as the defender of a neo-nazi in Norway's most famous racially motivated murder case, and Breivik chose him personally to be his defense lawyer. I don't get the impression that Lippestad has any sympathies with the anti-immigration/anti-Islam crowd, though. He's just doing his job, and everyone deserves and has the right to a lawyer.

[DC]

Aftenposten has an interview with his defense lawyer. (http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=no&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.aftenposten.no%2Fnyheter%2Firik s%2Farticle4182902.ece)

I linked to the article through Google Translate instead of translating it myself, because of the size of the article.. The biggest mistranslation I can see is that the lawyer is called Lippestad, not Lippe City.. :)

The main thing here is that he says he will not be part of promoting Breivik's political message in the courtroom.

ETA: He says that it's random that he was chosen as his defense lawyer, but I think not. Lippestad's most known case was as the defender of a neo-nazi in Norway's most famous racially motivated murder case, and Breivik chose him personally to be his defense lawyer. I don't get the impression that Lippestad has any sympathies with the anti-immigration/anti-Islam crowd, though. He's just doing his job, and everyone deserves and has the right to a lawyer.

strange he choosed a lawyer randomly. ETA: oh didnt see your ETA

[Ryokan]

strange he choosed a lawyer randomly. ETA: oh didnt see your ETA

Breivik writes a quite detailed description of what he requires in his defense lawyer, and I suspect this was as close as he could get - not someone that sympathizes with the cause, but at least someone known for defending his type of people in the past.

[DC]

Breivik writes a quite detailed description of what he requires in his defense lawyer, and I suspect this was as close as he could get - not someone that sympathizes with the cause, but at least someone known for defending his type of people in the past.

that makes sense, thanks.

[CHF]

I'd love to know why people think a country belongs to them.

Because humans are tribal, as much as we would like to think it were not so.


We sometimes lose sight of it in the multicultural West, but in most nations ethnicity, nationality, race and religion are tightly intertwined, sometimes interchangeable.


A blonde Swede could not move to Mogadishu and be thought of as "Somali." An ethnic Han Chinese person could not move to Iraq and become an “Iraqi” or an Arab. They could live in their new country for decades and would never be thought of as a member of the tribe.


In the West this sort of ethnic identity has been challenged since the 1960s in a way that would NEVER be tolerated in most other places.


Can you imagine the government in a Muslim country opening its doors to millions of non-Muslim immigrants? The result would be a pogrom, not a lone gunman.


Generally speaking, the multicultural experiment in the West has gone as well as it could be expected to, all things considered.

[citizenzen]

Because humans are tribal, as much as we would like to think it were not so.


We're totally tribal, in ways both big and small.

With any luck, we'll eventually learn not to kill over it.

Go Niners.

[DC]

Because humans are tribal, as much as we would like to think it were not so.


We sometimes lose sight of it in the multicultural West, but in most nations ethnicity, nationality, race and religion are tightly intertwined, sometimes interchangeable.


A blonde Swede could not move to Mogadishu and be thought of as "Somali." An ethnic Han Chinese person could not move to Iraq and become an “Iraqi” or an Arab. They could live in their new country for decades and would never be thought of as a member of the tribe.


In the West this sort of ethnic identity has been challenged since the 1960s in a way that would NEVER be tolerated in most other places.


Can you imagine the government in a Muslim country opening its doors to millions of non-Muslim immigrants? The result would be a pogrom, not a lone gunman.


Generally speaking, the multicultural experiment in the West has gone as well as it could be expected to, all things considered.

interesting, sounds like a book im reading...

[CHF]

I’m afraid to ask which book that is.

[Ryokan]

A hunt for possible British accomplices of the mass murderer Anders Behring Breivik is under way after it emerged that he began his deadly “crusade” after meeting other Right-wing extremists in London.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/norway/8658664/Hunt-for-Britons-linked-to-Norway-killer-Anders-Behring-Breivik.html

[CHF]

A hunt for possible British accomplices of the mass murderer Anders Behring Breivik is under way after it emerged that he began his deadly “crusade” after meeting other Right-wing extremists in London.

Sounds an awful lot like how Muslim youth get sucked into Jihadi terrorism.

They start with a widely-held grievance (US foreign policy in the case of Muslims; Islamic immigration in the case of right-wingers), then they meet the wrong people and off they go...

[Ryokan]

The father of Anders Behring Breivik today spoke of his "absolute horror" at his son's crimes and offered condolences to the family and friends of his 93 murder victims.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/norway/8657928/Norway-Killer-Father-horrified-by-Anders-Behring-Breivik-killing-spree.html

So his estranged father was a Labour supporter...

[Ryokan]

Sounds an awful lot like how Muslim youth get sucked into Jihadi terrorism.

They start with a widely-held grievance (US foreign policy in the case of Muslims; Islamic immigration in the case of right-wingers), then they meet the wrong people and off they go...

I read some articles in Norwegian media about how his radicalization through the internet echoed how many young Muslims get radicalized.

Extremism, it seems, is dangerous no matter what flavour it has.

[Ryokan]

He spared one life, an 11 year old boy..

The boy said, "don't shoot me, you've shot enough. You've already killed my father. I'm too young to die." - and the shooter withdrew, after aiming at him for a while and considering it.

[CHF]

He spared one life, an 11 year old boy..

The boy said, "don't shoot me, you've shot enough. You've already killed my father. I'm too young to die." - and the shooter withdrew, after aiming at him for a while and considering it.

I'm surprised the kid even had the self composure to get those words out. He sounds mature way beyond his years.

Even the Nazis spared the odd Jew...

[CHF]

Was thinking about how this attack compares to other terror attacks over the years and I would say this has to be the worst one since Beslan.

It is on a different level when children are the primary targets.

[timhau]

I've heard a criminologist say the man is sane. I'll be interested to observe how this debate pans out. He's obviously intelligent, and cunning. That doesn't mean he's sane though.

I suppose 'sane' in this context means 'legally sane', i.e. that he knew what he was doing, that he knew he was killing kids instead of demons wearing human skin or somesuch. By that standard, he's sane.

As for intelligence, I really don't see anything there to suggest above-average intelligence. Obsessed and organized, yes. Remarkably intelligent, no. It's a scary thought, but planning a mass murder doesn't really require all that much intelligence if you don't care whether you get caught or survive.

[Safe-Keeper]

Was thinking about how this attack compares to other terror attacks over the years and I would say this has to be the worst one since Beslan.
Worst terrorist act in Europe in 20 years. If viewed as a killing spree, it's the worst in world history:(.

I'm glad I'm going to a circus festival in a few days. I really need a break from all this.

[Ryokan]

As for intelligence, I really don't see anything there to suggest above-average intelligence. Obsessed and organized, yes. Remarkably intelligent, no. It's a scary thought, but planning a mass murder doesn't really require all that much intelligence if you don't care whether you get caught or survive.

He was an excellent student. After finishing school, after he had set his mind to executing a terrorist attack, he set about trying to get funds that would allow him to follow through with it. He quickly amassed a fortune through founding several businesses and stock market speculation - becoming a self made millionaire.

I'd say he's more than above average intelligent.

[timhau]

He was an excellent student. After finishing school, after he had set his mind to executing a terrorist attack, he set about trying to get funds that would allow him to follow through with it. He quickly amassed a fortune through founding several businesses and stock market speculation - becoming a self made millionaire.

Is that verified? I know he was presenting himself as a self-made millionaire on the internet, but I suspect the number of internet millionaires is at least hundredfold when compared to actual ones.

[Ryokan]

Is that verified? I know he was presenting himself as a self-made millionaire on the internet, but I suspect the number of internet millionaires is at least hundredfold when compared to actual ones.

He did have enough money to quit his job and work on his manifesto and terror plot for years, all the while traveling the world, buying everything he needed, rent a farm, set up fake companies as cover for his purchases, etc.

In Norway, some of your tax report numbers are made public. Here's the report on Breivik, 2006-2009:

http://skattelister.no/skatt/profil/anders-behring-breivik-33747942/

(I have no idea why there are no numbers from 2010.)

He says in his manifesto that he declared his companies bankrupt in 2005-2006, as he saw it as the most cost efficient way of salvaging all the funds he could for his operation.

From 2006, we see, he has had almost no income at all, yet over 600 000 NOK as wealth in 2006 (Over 100 000 USD). His company must have been worth more than that, if that's what he had left after declaring bankruptcy.

ETA: (Yes, he was a millionaire in NOK, not in USD or EUR, which I guess makes it a little less impressive as some people may have imagined, but it's still no minor feat.)

ETA2: He also mentions his companies losing a lot of money in 2005 because of the financial crisis.

ETA3: He also says he lost around 2 million NOK on the stock market in the period 2005-2008, something that, if true, would possibly not reflect on his public tax report.

[Travis]

I was actually kind of hoping Norway would increase security a bit. To me it seems ridiculously naive to have a culture that relies on the mythical "goodness" of people. Something that I think only happens in spite of human society in the rare few cases that it does manifest.

But, that does seem to be what they are doing, so I wish them the best. Maybe it will prove people such as myself, that have an inherent mistrust of human society, wrong. It would be good to be wrong on this issue.

[Ryokan]

What security do you feel we are lacking..?

[Ryokan]

Breivik has told the police that his main target at Utøya was former Prime Minister Gro Harlem Bruntdland, but came to the island too late - she had already left when he got there.

He also had intended to plant two more bombs in downtown Oslo, but ran out of resources.

He dripped lead on top of the bullets he used, and also used expanding bullets, which created devastating damage to his human targets and helps explain the high death toll. Doctors have told the media they've never seen this massive damage from gun shot wounds before.

[citizenzen]

To me it seems ridiculously naive to have a culture that relies on the mythical "goodness" of people.


I'm not sure what you mean by that.

Doesn't every (ordinary) society rely on the goodness of people?

Despite your claim, there are still police and jails in Norway.

So it can't be all goodness and light.

[Ryokan]

His lawyer is a member of Labour. Hah!

[Ryokan]

He spared one life, an 11 year old boy..

The boy said, "don't shoot me, you've shot enough. You've already killed my father. I'm too young to die." - and the shooter withdrew, after aiming at him for a while and considering it.

The media now reports that the boy's father was a policeman in civilian clothes, working overtime to help with security at the summer camp, something he has done for many years. This year he brought his son with him. He was killed trying to stop Breivik.

He was also the step-brother of the crown princess.

[Ryokan]

If you want to show support for the Norwegian people, you can do it here:

http://www.vg.no/nyheter/innenriks/oslobomben/lenke.php

[Safe-Keeper]

I'm amazed by the number of people from other countries who have somehow found their way to that site to show their support. Deeply moving.

[Ryokan]

Norway killer wants to wear uniform at court, lawyer claims.

"He has two wishes: the first is that there is a public hearing and the second is that he is allowed to wear a uniform," Geir Lippestad told the NRK television channel late Sunday.

"I don't know what uniform," he said, adding that the 32-year-old wanted to explain why he unleashed the carnage and "wants to do it publicly"

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/norway/8658855/Norway-killer-wants-to-wear-uniform-at-court-lawyer-claims.html

Here we go...

His arraignment is at 1300CET.

[timhau]

He did have enough money to quit his job and work on his manifesto and terror plot for years, all the while traveling the world, buying everything he needed, rent a farm, set up fake companies as cover for his purchases, etc.

Living with your mom can drastically cut down the daily expenses of a Justiciar Knight. Also, if you set up a company, debt financing may become available (far too easily available in most countries prior to the Lehman Brothers bankruptcy). And again, I'd like to see his world travels confirmed by a source that hasn't set up its own chivalric order.


From 2006, we see, he has had almost no income at all, yet over 600 000 NOK as wealth in 2006 (Over 100 000 USD). His company must have been worth more than that, if that's what he had left after declaring bankruptcy.

ETA: (Yes, he was a millionaire in NOK, not in USD or EUR, which I guess makes it a little less impressive as some people may have imagined, but it's still no minor feat.)

600,000 NOK is about 80,000€, which I assume buys less in Norway than it does over here in Finland, and drastically less than it does in e.g. Germany. It's not nothing, but it's also not a fortune; furthermore, he didn't seem to be very good at hanging on to it since it dwindled down to the price of a large sedan a year later. Of course, one of the fascinating and irritating features of investing is that you can't tell luck apart from skill by looking at the end result.

ETA2: He also mentions his companies losing a lot of money in 2005 because of the financial crisis.

ETA3: He also says he lost around 2 million NOK on the stock market in the period 2005-2008, something that, if true, would possibly not reflect on his public tax report.

There was no financial crisis in 2005. 2005 was a year of early bubble formation. 2008, on the other hand, was an excellent year to make huge losses in the stock market; the Oslo OBX index was in free fall for about 2 months after the Lehman bankruptcy. Then again, an intelligent investor could have made a fortune in the 2009 recovery.

[Information Analyst]

So why do you omit the fact that the military have 12 Westland Sea Kings doing SAR ?
Because it was in response to Dayan81 asking: "The Oslo SWAT team does not possess helicopters for emergency or terrorist situations, to facilitate a quick response?" They asked about what can only taken to be police heliocpters.

[Information Analyst]

I think in this time of common-sense hightened security due to the fear & possibility of terrorism, all police departments in major cities in the West should have a Blackhawk or similiar-type of helicopter ready for SWAT or EMS teams to be used at a moment's notice.
LOL! Seriously, how much money do you think other countries have to throw around on tenuous "what might happens"?

[leftysergeant]

What security do you feel we are lacking..?As I understood your desription of the laws concerning firearms (at least, I think it was you who described the process) individuals in shooting clubs could be licensed to take their weapons home with them.

The protocols for this might be re-examined to see whether there is a way to better screen out whackadoodles and potential terrorists.

I realise, at the same time, that no system will catch them all.

It does seem to me that his failure to complete any mandatory military training or alternative service (do you have somethng along the lines of the German "Ersatzdienst?) should have been a major no-go condition.

[leftysergeant]

LOL! Seriously, how much money do you think other countries have to throw around on tenuous "what might happens"?For that matter, I wonder whether any pilot would want to try to land on an island that small with an unknown number of hostiles within effective pistol range and all that cover and concealment and no possibility of laying down suppressing fire.

[Ryokan]

As I understood your desription of the laws concerning firearms (at least, I think it was you who described the process) individuals in shooting clubs could be licensed to take their weapons home with them.

The protocols for this might be re-examined to see whether there is a way to better screen out whackadoodles and potential terrorists.

I realise, at the same time, that no system will catch them all.

It does seem to me that his failure to complete any mandatory military training or alternative service (do you have somethng along the lines of the German "Ersatzdienst?) should have been a major no-go condition.

This guy has been very clever in hiding his 'true self'. Not even his friends or family knew how radical he was. He had a totally clean police record. From the outside, the guy looked like a model citizen. I'm not sure what kind of laws we could have the would stop people like him to get access to guns that would not also be excessive.

We do have compulsory military service, although these days fewer and fewer are required to serve. I'm not sure it's a good idea to tie guns laws to this.

[Ryokan]

And finally some good news.. The police now says the death toll at Utøya may actually be lower than first believed! They don't give any reasons why, except saying that because the media first reported that there might be as many as 10 deaths, the police wanted to be quick in giving a better estimate so that people would understand what a horrible incident has happened.

ETA: One reason seems to be that there were people that were supposed to be on the island, but wasn't.

[Ryokan]

The court is also saying that it's very doubtful that they will allow him to wear his uniform.

[Ryokan]

For that matter, I wonder whether any pilot would want to try to land on an island that small with an unknown number of hostiles within effective pistol range and all that cover and concealment and no possibility of laying down suppressing fire.

The police now says that their helicopter wasn't available because of pilots being on vacation. They also say that the helicopter would've been very useful because it has very advanced surveillance systems, including heat seeking cameras.

It didn't make any difference, really, as the shooter surrendered immediately. The helicopter was operational later in the day, and helped in the search of victims and survivors.

Ambulance helicopters couldn't land because of the shooting, so I assume the same would've been true for any police landing by helicopter, and that even if a helicopter for troop transport had been available, they'd still have chosen to use a boat.

[Rolfe]

If you want to show support for the Norwegian people, you can do it here:

http://www.vg.no/nyheter/innenriks/oslobomben/lenke.php


I genuinely tried to find my own country on that list, and couldn't. I went for Scotland to start with, as we have more affinity to Norway than Britain as a whole, but no dice. Then I looked for United Kingdom, Great Britain, and Britain, and found none of these either.

I fudged and went in as Irish! But I see now there are people there with Union flags, so it must have been possible....

Rolfe.

[leftysergeant]

We do have compulsory military service, although these days fewer and fewer are required to serve. I'm not sure it's a good idea to tie guns laws to this.

Part of the rationale in recognizing the right of a citizen to own a firearm is that that firearm may be put to service in defense of public safety and national defense. An unwillingness to subject onesself to the sort of discipline that national service must entail, whether as a soldier or emergency medical worker or whatever should call into question whether this person can be counted on to act responsibly when the compost hits the ventilating device.

Making it compulsory for anyone who would own a firearm would sort out a lot of the sociopaths and free some people who have no desire either to train as soldiers or posess firearms to do other things with their lives.

It would also give people like ABB another chance to trip some kind of alarm before they go off because some superior would be watching for signs of mental or moral defect.

It would not be perfect, but anything more rigorous would be an infringement on human rights.

[timhau]

ETA: One reason seems to be that there were people that were supposed to be on the island, but wasn't.

Ah. Kids, being kids, will skip classes or other organized program, given the chance. That's never been as good news as it is now.

[Ryokan]

I genuinely tried to find my own country on that list, and couldn't.

Was it in Norwegian? With me it was listed as Storbritannia/United Kingdom.

[Ryokan]

Part of the rationale in recognizing the right of a citizen to own a firearm is that that firearm may be put to service in defense of public safety and national defense.

Maybe in your country, but not mine. Norway doesn't recognize the right if citizens to own firearms, even though the gun laws are a lot more liberal than in the rest of Europe. The vast majority of civilian weapons in Norway are used for hunting, the rest for sport.

For the defense of the country, we have the army and an actual armed militia.

[DC]

Part of the rationale in recognizing the right of a citizen to own a firearm is that that firearm may be put to service in defense of public safety and national defense. An unwillingness to subject onesself to the sort of discipline that national service must entail, whether as a soldier or emergency medical worker or whatever should call into question whether this person can be counted on to act responsibly when the compost hits the ventilating device.

Making it compulsory for anyone who would own a firearm would sort out a lot of the sociopaths and free some people who have no desire either to train as soldiers or posess firearms to do other things with their lives.

It would also give people like ABB another chance to trip some kind of alarm before they go off because some superior would be watching for signs of mental or moral defect.

It would not be perfect, but anything more rigorous would be an infringement on human rights.

in rational civilizations people do not walk around with their weapons, especially not in childrens camps.

[Dave Rogers]

I genuinely tried to find my own country on that list, and couldn't. I went for Scotland to start with, as we have more affinity to Norway than Britain as a whole, but no dice. Then I looked for United Kingdom, Great Britain, and Britain, and found none of these either.

The UK is in there, but as Storbritannia/United Kingdom. It took me a while to find it, but I wasn't looking under "S".

Dave

[Rolfe]

Was it in Norwegian? With me it was listed as Storbritannia/United Kingdom.


I may have missed it, though I looked at the S list quite closely to try to find Scotland.

Never mind, I decided to be honorary Irish, but gave my location as Scotland!

Rolfe.

[Ryokan]

A man in Poland has been arrested in connection with the terrorist attack in Norway.

The man runs an internet business that sells chemical products. The Norwegian police requested already on friday that Polish authorities arrest him.

[Ryokan]

Norwegian Intelligence doubts the existence of the Templar Knights organization.

[Rolfe]

Norwegian Intelligence is smart, in that case.

Rolfe.

[Rolfe]

To clarify, this is my main reason for believing him to be mentally ill in some way. If such an organisation did in fact exist, then the whole thing would be evil beyond description, but still sane. However, to have this delusion of an organisation, while working alone - that to me is not sane.

Rolfe.

[Travis]

What security do you feel we are lacking..?

I find it amazing the Prime Minister is not guarded by a whole army of security forces. We lost that luxury in America back when Lincoln died.

I'm not sure what you mean by that.

Doesn't every (ordinary) society rely on the goodness of people?

Despite your claim, there are still police and jails in Norway.

So it can't be all goodness and light.

A society that depends on the goodness of people is destined to fail. That's why a certain amount of authoritarianism will always be necessary.

The police now says that their helicopter wasn't available because of pilots being on vacation.

How does that happen? Even my little collection of shacks in the woods has a SWAT team on standbye 24/7 with two helicopters they can use and a rotation of pilots so that there is always someone that can get them airborne in twenty minutes.

[catsmate1]

I genuinely tried to find my own country on that list, and couldn't. I went for Scotland to start with, as we have more affinity to Norway than Britain as a whole, but no dice. Then I looked for United Kingdom, Great Britain, and Britain, and found none of these either.

I fudged and went in as Irish! But I see now there are people there with Union flags, so it must have been possible....

Rolfe.
The countries don't appear, in the drop down, in alphabetical order.

[icerat]

How does that happen? Even my little collection of shacks in the woods has a SWAT team on standbye 24/7 with two helicopters they can use and a rotation of pilots so that there is always someone that can get them airborne in twenty minutes.

For what purpose would Norway want this? So they can sit around doing nothing their entire careers, waiting for something that had never happened before and will (hopefully) never happen again?

Why is it so hard to understand this? Is violence so normalized in the US that you can't even imagine that it's not like that in other countries?

[timhau]

To clarify, this is my main reason for believing him to be mentally ill in some way. If such an organisation did in fact exist, then the whole thing would be evil beyond description, but still sane. However, to have this delusion of an organisation, while working alone - that to me is not sane.


Not in the ordinary language meaning of the term, no. It's like he never grew out of the Our Own Sooper Sikrit Organization (No Girls Allowed!) -phase that many boys (incl. yours truly) go through around 3rd grade or so. That's one of the things that gives his ramblings that air of infantility.

I have seen absolutely nothing to indicate that he isn't sane in the legal sense.

[Rolfe]

But for an adult of 31 to be playing that game, and playing in isolation where there don't even seem to be others in the Sooper Sekrit Club, would that not be pathological?

Rolfe.

[icerat]

He is clearly a psychopath. Can't speak for Norwegian law, but psychopathology is not normally a defence for criminal insanity, which requires a prior impairment such that there is a lack of knowledge or awareness of the nature of the crime committed.

[icerat]

Court hearing has occured now btw. It was a closed session, he wasn't allowed to wear his uniform. Breivik said he was saving Europe from a muslim takeover and cultural marxism. The cultural marxists were traitors who were "mass importing" muslims. His aim was that AUF would now lose membership due to his actions.

I hope the opposite happens, and he's told about it - can foreigners join? :)

He also claimed there were two more cells (I don't believe him, but obviously needs investigating)

He'll be held in isolation for 4 weeks with no outside communication except his lawyer, then a further 4 weeks, giving 8 weeks for the police to investigate.

[Kestrel]

For what purpose would Norway want this? So they can sit around doing nothing their entire careers, waiting for something that had never happened before and will (hopefully) never happen again?

Why is it so hard to understand this? Is violence so normalized in the US that you can't even imagine that it's not like that in other countries?

Fear of random violence is normalized in the US. As in Norway, a psychopathic killer going on a shooting spree is a rare event. The typical murder is far more mundane. Someone gets pissed at a family member, ex spouse or intimate partner and blows them away. Or an argument escalates and one of the participants pulls out a gun and starts shooting.

[Leviath]

I find it amazing the Prime Minister is not guarded by a whole army of security forces.

Somewhere in this thread I think you've gotten confused. The PM is guarded by security although not in the scale of US, Russian or Israeli heads of state. A few other ministers and politicians are also guarded 24/7.

[Rolfe]

He is clearly a psychopath. Can't speak for Norwegian law, but psychopathology is not normally a defence for criminal insanity, which requires a prior impairment such that there is a lack of knowledge or awareness of the nature of the crime committed.


I was thinking more of the detention phase. If he was psychopathic, would that lead to a different form of detention, that might last as long as he was perceived to be a danger to society, rather than the statutory maximum of 21 years?

Rolfe.

[icerat]

I was thinking more of the detention phase. If he was psychopathic, would that lead to a different form of detention, that might last as long as he was perceived to be a danger to society, rather than the statutory maximum of 21 years?

Rolfe.

Yes, as remarked earlier in the thread he can be detained indefinitely.

[Travis]

For what purpose would Norway want this? So they can sit around doing nothing their entire careers, waiting for something that had never happened before and will (hopefully) never happen again?

Why is it so hard to understand this? Is violence so normalized in the US that you can't even imagine that it's not like that in other countries?

To the best of my knowledge we've never used this SWAT team/helicopter force. But we pay big bucks to keep them at the ready in case the **** ever hits the fan. In fact the politicians win votes by promising to lavish them with more high tech equipment all the time despite having never been needed to date. This sometimes means defunding local parks and stuff but the voters seem to have voiced their preference by reelecting those guys. We also have a local bomb squad that only ever gets action when they supervise the Mythbusters who come up here to blow stuff up rather a lot. I think the last time they actually had to diffuse a potential bomb was back in the early 90's.

Somewhere in this thread I think you've gotten confused. The PM is guarded by security although not in the scale of US, Russian or Israeli heads of state. A few other ministers and politicians are also guarded 24/7.

I didn't say the PM isn't guarded at all. It just amazes me that there weren't snipers and other advance security forces on the island if the PM was supposed to be visiting there later. I suppose sometimes I get jealous that other countries don't have to take such extreme measures to protect their heads of government and I sort of wish they had to understand what a burden it is to countries like mine that do. I guess this is why "jealousy" is unhealthy for everyone.

[Leviath]

I was thinking more of the detention phase. If he was psychopathic, would that lead to a different form of detention, that might last as long as he was perceived to be a danger to society, rther than the statutory maximum of 21 years?

Rolfe.

Yes. If he is found to be psychopathic he can be held for life in "forced psychic healthcare" (I can't translate it correctly).

If he is not found to be psychopathic Norwegian law allows for detaining people who are considered too dangerous to be let out after 21 years. This has happened in the past in extreme cases.

Initially he can be sentenced to 21 years plus 10 years of detention. After those 10 years he can still be detained for unlimited periods of 5 years.

If I remember correctly, it's a bit complicated.

[icerat]

I'm getting irritated at criticism of the police response time. Seeing an interview with a journalist who got there a few minutes before the police. How did I do that? He was in a helicopter already in the air over Oslo when the shooting reports came in!

They went straight to the island and the police were there not long after. That's a *fast* response, not a slow response.

[Hawk one]

I hope the opposite happens, and he's told about it - can foreigners join? :)

I'm not really a fan of revenge - not that I don't have vengeful thoughts in my life, I generally just don't think it's appropriate of me to express them - but I can imagine the idea of him, while serving his sentence/detainment, getting newspaper cutouts delivered to his cell telling about AUF getting thousands of new members, and similar stories.

It's simple, it's clean, it's humane, and yet still pretty bastardly.

[icerat]

To the best of my knowledge we've never used this SWAT team/helicopter force. But we pay big bucks to keep them at the ready in case the **** ever hits the fan. In fact the politicians win votes by promising to lavish them with more high tech equipment all the time despite having never been needed to date. This sometimes means defunding local parks and stuff but the voters seem to have voiced their preference by reelecting those guys. We also have a local bomb squad that only ever gets action when they supervise the Mythbusters who come up here to blow stuff up rather a lot. I think the last time they actually had to diffuse a potential bomb was back in the early 90's.

What a terribly inefficient use of resources and, in my opinion. a sad indictment of the society. Spending money for no reason but fear.

Doesn't that mean the terrorists have won?

[Leviath]

I didn't say the PM isn't guarded at all. It just amazes me that there weren't snipers and other advance security forces on the island if the PM was supposed to be visiting there later.

Sorry, my bad then. He wasn't supposed to be there until the day after (saturday) so there was no security there on friday.

ABB planned this very well. The foreign minister was at the island on thursday and security was tight. ABB chose the "correct" day.

[icerat]

Police press conference on now -

Utoya shootings confirmed dead revised down to 68
Oslo bombing confirmed dead revised up to 8

both numbers still subject to change, some missing still being searched for

[quadraginta]

What a terribly inefficient use of resources and, in my opinion. a sad indictment of the society. Spending money for no reason but fear.

Doesn't that mean the terrorists have won?


Yes, it does. And yes, it is.

Well maybe not "won" exactly, but "are achieving their objective". That's not quite the same thing.

The sad part is that in some regards their objective dovetails nicely with the domestic political tactics of our conservative extremists, as well as that of a burgeoning defense industry (the military-industrial complex that Eisenhower warned us about more than half a century ago) which profits from the politics of fear at the expense of tangible social benefits.

It is a very sick triumvirate. "Sad" probably isn't a strong enough term. It is no coincidence that the debt we have accumulated in the past decade is so similar to the amount we have thrown away on foreign military misadventure.

I wish we could learn from Norway, but the general tenor of the response in our media is not unlike some of the opinions expressed in this thread. "If only the Norwegians had been more like us this might not have happened."

[Rolfe]

I saw a comment in todays paper that one of our politicians had stated that he couldn't guarantee the same thing couldn't happen here.

No :rule10, Sherlock!

It would be absolutely impossible to ensure that this sort of atrocity couldn't happen, I was going to say without a completely unsupportable reduction in civil liberties, but actually, the last bit's unnecessary. It can't be done, end of.

Rolfe.

[DC]

I saw a comment in todays paper that one of our politicians had stated that he couldn't guarantee the same thing couldn't happen here.

No :rule10, Sherlock!

It would be absolutely impossible to ensure that this sort of atrocity couldn't happen, I was going to say without a completely unsupportable reduction in civil liberties, but actually, the last bit's unnecessary. It can't be done, end of.

Rolfe.

very true.

[Childlike Empress]

I'm just back from a little forced vacation, but I followed the thread and so was able to inform people in other corners of the net about what was going on, always being three steps ahead of what the media was reporting.

Thanks for that, Ryokan and the other norwegians, and my best wishes to you and the norwegian people. You have again proven what a mature society you are (also by rejecting cries for revenge) and i'm sure you won't allow a single madman to change the way you live. You can be proud of yourselves.

On the upside, this psychopath has done a lot of damage to his "cause" and the mental arsonists and crusaders through-out Europe are eating their own words now, including our own german bastion of this mindset, which is also called "politically incorrect" - interesting to read that outlets with the same name also exist in other countries.

[icerat]

It would be absolutely impossible to ensure that this sort of atrocity couldn't happen, I was going to say without a completely unsupportable reduction in civil liberties, but actually, the last bit's unnecessary. It can't be done, end of.

this

[Arcade22]

atlasshrugs2000

It's interesting that you post a link to a blog that is repeatedly cited by the terrorist. Very telling.

[Kestrel]

On the upside, this psychopath has done a lot of damage to his "cause" and the mental arsonists and crusaders through-out Europe are eating their own words now, including our own german bastion of this mindset, which is also called "politically incorrect" - interesting to read that outlets with the same name also exist in other countries.

The effect on the European nativists should be similar to the damage done the the Militia Movement in the US after the Oklahoma City bombing.

[Travis]

What a terribly inefficient use of resources and, in my opinion. a sad indictment of the society. Spending money for no reason but fear.

Doesn't that mean the terrorists have won?

Terrorism has nothing to do with it (and normally I do complain about it being a poor allocation of spending but on the day the Norway attack happened I couldn't help but note that this wasteful and usually unneeded service would have actually come in handy in that situation) what started this was the soaring crime rates in the 80's and early 90's. Back then there were districts in LA where the criminals had more firepower than many Central American countries and the police were scared to even enter them without armored transport. We've been stuck with them (bloated SWAT teams) ever since.

[Kestrel]

I didn't say the PM isn't guarded at all. It just amazes me that there weren't snipers and other advance security forces on the island if the PM was supposed to be visiting there later. I suppose sometimes I get jealous that other countries don't have to take such extreme measures to protect their heads of government and I sort of wish they had to understand what a burden it is to countries like mine that do. I guess this is why "jealousy" is unhealthy for everyone.

Norway is a small country, similar in area and population to my home state of Colorado. In the absence of a specific threat, I would expect the Norwegian PM's security to be rather minimal. On the same order as what we provide our governor.

[Kestrel]

Terrorism has nothing to do with it (and normally I do complain about it being a poor allocation of spending but on the day the Norway attack happened I couldn't help but note that this wasteful and usually unneeded service would have actually come in handy in that situation) what started this was the soaring crime rates in the 80's and early 90's. Back then there were districts in LA where the criminals had more firepower than many Central American countries and the police were scared to even enter them without armored transport. We've been stuck with them (bloated SWAT teams) ever since.

The problem with having a SWAT teams is that we keep finding excuses to use them. For example, raiding a suspected drug dealers home with a frontal assault.

[TmoonII]

If you want to show support for the Norwegian people, you can do it here:

http://www.vg.no/nyheter/innenriks/oslobomben/lenke.php

Thank you. It is my humble honor to join the chain.

[Travis]

The problem with having a SWAT teams is that we keep finding excuses to use them. For example, raiding a suspected drug dealers home with a frontal assault.

Yeah, that is a concern. But if you do have them sitting around and already paid for................

[Leviath]

100000-150000 people are gathered in streets of Oslo right now...

The gunman demanded that the police should pick up his uniform before going to court. Then demanded to read from his manifest. The judge didn't agree.

[bikerdruid]

cbc radio just announced that the death toll was lowered from 93 to 78......what happened?

[The Mutha]

From what I understand the death toll was lowered as some of the youths at the Island hadn't actually been on the Island after all. Not unusual to tell your parents you're going to a sanctioned event, but sneak off with the friends instead...

[Ryokan]

100000-150000 people are gathered in streets of Oslo right now...

The gunman demanded that the police should pick up his uniform before going to court. Then demanded to read from his manifest. The judge didn't agree.

I just returned from downtown of my own home town, and all of the city center was packed with people. Twenty thousand showed up to show support, in a town of a little over 40 000 people!

http://www.smp.no/nyheter/article361875.ece

[Kestrel]

cbc radio just announced that the death toll was lowered from 93 to 78......what happened?

A more careful count. Early reports from a disaster or terrorist attack often get the number of victims wrong.

[Safe-Keeper]

Here is a live webcam of downtown Bergen, showing the candles and flowers laid down to commemorate the dead, and the gathering of people.

http://www.bt.no/kamera/videokamera/Torgallmenningen-2480013.html

It'll load slowly due to high traffic load.

ETA: the plaza is packed full at the moment.

[Bob001]

Apparently the longest prison sentence provided by Norwegian law is 21 years, with a mechanism to hold on to people who are adjudged still dangerous. Question: Does Norwegian law permit consecutive sentences? If he is sentenced to 21 years for each crime, he won't be going anywhere, and no judge down the road will have a chance to decide he's no longer dangerous.

[sophia8]

I genuinely tried to find my own country on that list, and couldn't. I went for Scotland to start with, as we have more affinity to Norway than Britain as a whole, but no dice. Then I looked for United Kingdom, Great Britain, and Britain, and found none of these either.

I fudged and went in as Irish! But I see now there are people there with Union flags, so it must have been possible....

Rolfe.Yes it is. Countries are listed by their Norwegian names first, proper names second. I found 'United Kingdom' sandwiched between Sudan and Sri Lanka - the Norwegian title for us begins with an S.

[Leif Roar]

Question: Does Norwegian law permit consecutive sentences?

No.

[Ryokan]

Norwegian law does not do consecutive sentences. 21 years is the total maximum you can be sentenced to - but as you say, there are provisions that can allow a dangerous individual to be incarcerated indefinitely.

[Normal Dude]

What a terribly inefficient use of resources and, in my opinion. a sad indictment of the society. Spending money for no reason but fear.

Doesn't that mean the terrorists have won?

Ooh, I love this stupid bit of jabbing that so many use thoughtlessly. We have locks on our doors. Have the burglars won?

[DC]

Ooh, I love this stupid bit of jabbing that so many use thoughtlessly. We have locks on our doors. Have the burglars won?

wow what does a lock cost in your country? :boggled:

[Safe-Keeper]

Yes, having to go through the process of locking our doors, with all the troubles this creates for ourselves (locking ourselves out and what have you), you could indeed say the burglars have "won", in that their actions have had a detrimental effect on our society.

Filibustering aside, I get your actual point, though;). Yes, rhetoric like "letting the terrorists win" is worthless when deciding whether or not we actually need stricter security measures.

[BenBurch]

It's interesting that you post a link to a blog that is repeatedly cited by the terrorist. Very telling.

Indeed, we are seeing the Right converging on terrorism, not to fight it, but to do it.

[Taarkin]

Word cloud of the manifesto:
http://i.imgur.com/0ByJX.jpg

[m-n-m]

Yes, having to go through the process of locking our doors, with all the troubles this creates for ourselves (locking ourselves out and what have you), you could indeed say the burglars have "won", in that their actions have had a detrimental effect on our society.

Filibustering aside, I get your actual point, though;). Yes, rhetoric like "letting the terrorists win" is worthless when deciding whether or not we actually need stricter security measures.

You know what else is worthless? Taking away civil liberties under the threat of "terrorism".

[AdMan]

A collection of images from the attacks and the aftermath (warning--a few are graphic):

http://www.theatlantic.com/infocus/2011/07/tragedy-in-norway/100113/

[Safe-Keeper]

Oh my god... is that really a pic of the youth camp one day before the massacre?

No words...

[bookitty]

From what I understand the death toll was lowered as some of the youths at the Island hadn't actually been on the Island after all. Not unusual to tell your parents you're going to a sanctioned event, but sneak off with the friends instead...

Oh wow! That's great! Three cheers for the casual sneakiness of teenagers.

[AdMan]

Oh my god... is that really a pic of the youth camp one day before the massacre?

No words...


I know. :(

[Taarkin]

Wow, I didn't realize the bomb was that powerful.

[Safe-Keeper]

It doesn't really strike you until you see the toppled car.

[Klimax]

It doesn't really strike you until you see the toppled car.

That car is just confirmation - those windows and various are enough as it is.

[Ryokan]

His lawyer says he has a different understanding of reality than other people.

No ****, Sherlock.

[Leviath]

The gunman apparently was a bit surprised he was not subject to torture while being in detention and interrogated... He was under the impression torture is common in Norwegian prisons.

His delusions run deep.

[Rolfe]

What, in Norway???

Rolfe.

[Ryokan]

The gunman apparently was a bit surprised he was not subject to torture while being in detention and interrogated...

His delusions run deep.

Yeah, his lawyer also mentions that, as part of the misunderstanding of reality. He also expected to be assassinated on his way to court.

His lawyer really doesn't come across as that sympathetic to his client, but I still hope he will defend him to the best of his abilities. That's how it works in a country dedicated to the rule of law.

ETA: The article, via Google Translate:
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=no&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dagbladet.no%2F2011%2F07%2F25%2 Fnyheter%2Fanders_behring_breivik%2Finnenriks%2Fte rror%2Fterrorangrepet%2F17455469%2F

[Alt+F4]

His lawyer says he has a different understanding of reality than other people.

No ****, Sherlock.

Indeed. Whenever has killing a large amount of people for "your cause" ever rallied folks towards that cause?

[icerat]

Yeah, his lawyer also mentions that, as part of the misunderstanding of reality. He also expected to be assassinated on his way to court.

His lawyer really doesn't come across as that sympathetic to his client, but I still hope he will defend him to the best of his abilities. That's how it works in a country dedicated to the rule of law.

ETA: The article, via Google Translate:
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=no&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dagbladet.no%2F2011%2F07%2F25%2 Fnyheter%2Fanders_behring_breivik%2Finnenriks%2Fte rror%2Fterrorangrepet%2F17455469%2F

Assuming no signs of schizoprenia (no indication so far), a classic case of Persecutory/Grandiose Delusional Disorder (http://psychcentral.com/disorders/sx11.htm) methinks

[AdMan]

Yeah, his lawyer also mentions that, as part of the misunderstanding of reality. He also expected to be assassinated on his way to court.

His lawyer really doesn't come across as that sympathetic to his client, but I still hope he will defend him to the best of his abilities. That's how it works in a country dedicated to the rule of law.

ETA: The article, via Google Translate:
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=no&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dagbladet.no%2F2011%2F07%2F25%2 Fnyheter%2Fanders_behring_breivik%2Finnenriks%2Fte rror%2Fterrorangrepet%2F17455469%2F


I know he's supposed to defend Breivik to the best of his abilities, but can you blame him?

[Ryokan]

Assuming no signs of schizoprenia (no indication so far), a classic case of Persecutory/Grandiose Delusional Disorder (http://psychcentral.com/disorders/sx11.htm) methinks

An elaborate fantasy world that has replaced his perception of reality could be a sign of schizophrenia.

[Rolfe]

The best thing that could happen is that he understands how delusional he was, and how truly monstrous his actions were. A deep, deep understanding of the pain and devastation he has brought to the families of the victims, too.

The first victim has just been named, for us, a student from Bergen (sorry, I couldn't spell it phonetically), who was only 21. The teacher says he has two more students still missing.

Rolfe.

[quadraginta]

Ooh, I love this stupid bit of jabbing that so many use thoughtlessly. We have locks on our doors. Have the burglars won?


What percentage of your income do you spend on your door locks?

What percentage would you think would be "stupid" for the average homeowner to spend?

[George152]

Any-one else notice how he and Assange are almost identical in looks ?

[Safe-Keeper]

Oh, we've got our survivors, too. There's a support page for a girl who was shot twice (in the chest), survived by playing dead, and then proceeded to swim to safety. She aspires to become Prime Minister when she grows up.

http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=194150563975102

My kind of girl:)!

ETA: oh, and she's doing just fine, circumstances taken into consideration. Posting on FB and all.

[AdMan]

Here's a firsthand account of what happened at Utøya (English version):

http://gunkies.org/blog/?p=91

I want to end this with a request to everyone who reads this, echoing a statement I read by one of my good friends and comrades: Please, don’t let me see any messages of hatred, wishes for the death penalty, anything like that. If anyone should be of the belief that anything will improve by murdering this sad little person, they would be profoundly wrong. All attention now should be plowed into caring for those victims and their relatives who did not share my luck, and not giving an audience to a perpetrator who wants one.

[Hawk one]

Today there's been mass gatherings in almost all the towns of Norway, and quite a few villages to. All the major towns and cities seems to have had a turnout of between 20-50% of their respective populations. Oslo alone (which has about half a million residents) is estimated to have had 150 000 people turn up.

And from what I've read so far, all the gatherings have had a positive message. Not a single speech about revenge.

[Safe-Keeper]

And from what I've read so far, all the gatherings have had a positive message. Not a single speech about revenge. There are Norwegian Facebook groups calling for the death sentence, but they're a small minority and will never come close to making any actual headway.

[Leif Roar]

And from what I've read so far, all the gatherings have had a positive message. Not a single speech about revenge.

This was the closing comment from Fabian Stang, the mayor of Oslo, at the gathering in Oslo tonight:

"We will punish the murderer together. Our punishment will be more generosity, more tolerance and more democracy."

[Ryokan]

There are Norwegian Facebook groups calling for the death sentence, but they're a small minority and will never come close to making any actual headway.

A Facebook poll I saw had a vast majority of NO to the death penalty in this case. Not that it matters, we don't have the death penalty in Norway anyway.

I also saw, and joined, a group in support of defense lawyer Geir Lippestad. He comes across as a very sensible and likeable guy, and he's doing a very important job for our free society. The group was made just a short time ago, and it already has thousands of members.

[Safe-Keeper]

‎"Peaceful little Norway is showing the world how one handles this kind of situations. Right now I rank Norway as the greatest country in the world, I have never seen anything like this."

-Barrack Obama

-ETA-
I've written a blog post about the death sentence question, but I'm very hesitant to publish. Lots of emotions going around, and my blog isn't supposed to be political in the first place. That, and it seems a buddy of mine lost a friend of hers. She has one of the victims as a friend on Facebook... coincidentally, his birthday was supposed to be today. Same as hers. I was posting a birthday greeting on her page when I discovered she'd suffered a loss:(.

[DC]

‎"Peaceful little Norway is showing the world how one handles this kind of situations. Right now I rank Norway as the greatest country in the world, I have never seen anything like this"

-Barrack Obama

wow and have to agree.

[Alt+F4]

This was the closing comment from Fabian Stang, the mayor of Oslo, at the gathering in Oslo tonight:

"We will punish the murderer together. Our punishment will be more generosity, more tolerance and more democracy."

Yup, so this nut's actions will probably lead to exactly what he seemed to be opposed to. I hope his cellmates for the next 21 years are a series of religious Muslims.

[Information Analyst]

Why is it so hard to understand this? Is violence so normalized in the US that you can't even imagine that it's not like that in other countries?
I was trying to think of a polite response to the insistance on helicopters in some quarters, but that about covers it. Obvious in the States there is enough demand for them in general, not just for exception events of this type (or even approaching them), so the lack of them must seem bizarre from their point of view.

London "only" has three police helicopters, so I can understand how Oslo or even the whole of Norway only merits one.

[Eddie Dane]

Yup, so this nut's actions will probably lead to exactly what he seemed to be opposed to. I hope his cellmates for the next 21 years is a series of religious Muslims.

Don't

He'll love being around fundies.
Look at how much he has in common with them.

Let all his political and philosophical grandstanding fall on death ears.

I propose a cellmate with an IQ in the low fifties.

'I think Europe should wake up to it's Christian heritage'
'Huh?'

'I'm not a racist, but I oppose Islam as an ideology'
'Huh?'

'Never mind'
'Wanna watch some Cartoons?'

[roger]

I agree, hooray for how Norway is handling this, but I resist the implication that seems to be there that others should perhaps take a page from them on this. As the helicopter discussion points out, the needs of a very small, quite homogenous nation are quite different from a very large, heterogeneous population with conflicting desires and wildly differing wealth/education/community support with a recent history of slavery, limited rights for women, etc.

edit: I suspect Norway will start to have more of these types of events as their population becomes more diverse. It will be fascinating to see how Norway handles it - it could end up being a truly novel and enlightening experiment that causes us to rethink how to structure complex societies.

[leftysergeant]

The effect on the European nativists should be similar to the damage done the the Militia Movement in the US after the Oklahoma City bombing.I hope not. Those drongos are actually stronger today than they were in the Clinton years, and probably even more dangerous.

I just hope that some of the outrage against ABB will rub off on them. They do use a lot of the same arguments for preparing to overturn the government.

[Dayan81]

...edit: I suspect Norway will start to have more of these types of events as their population becomes more diverse. It will be fascinating to see how Norway handles it - it could end up being a truly novel and enlightening experiment that causes us to rethink how to structure complex societies.

Why would a more-diverse society lead to more mass-shootings?

This is Norway's first such event and it was perpetrated by a blond-haired, blue-eyed native-son.

[roger]

Why would a more-diverse society lead to more mass-shootings?

This is Norway's first such event and it was perpetrated by a blond-haired, blue-eyed native-son.
Well, I could be wrong, but I observe that diverse communities tend to have more strife than nondiverse communities. I compare, for example, Japan to the west bank. The thinking being that when you all have common goals, there's not a lot to shoot each other over.

Yes, the shooter was native, but his beef was with non-natives, if I read his quoted screeds correctly.

I hope I'm wrong about Norway's future, but suspect/worry I am not.

edit: and 'types of events' was vague on my part. I wasn't thinking of just mass murder, but gang violence, etc - the type of stuff that happens when you have disadvantaged people. Perhaps Norway's model will result in a different dynamic, which is what I was referring to when I said it would be an enlightening experiment. I know little about the country - googling suggests an uprise in gang and drug related violence in Oslo and other cities in the past decade or two. I do not know if those sources are biased or not. The suggestion is that violence is getting worse there. For example, this (http://citynoise.org/article/2310)is a random page showing street violence. I repeat, I do not represent this as fact - I have no idea.

[Ryokan]

Well, I could be wrong, but I observe that diverse communities tend to have more strife than nondiverse communities. I compare, for example, Japan to the west bank.

And if you compare Burma to, say, Britain?

[DC]

Well, I could be wrong, but I observe that diverse communities tend to have more strife than nondiverse communities. I compare, for example, Japan to the west bank. The thinking being that when you all have common goals, there's not a lot to shoot each other over.

Yes, the shooter was native, but his beef was with non-natives, if I read his quoted screeds correctly.

I hope I'm wrong about Norway's future, but suspect/worry I am not.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_murder_rate

i dont see that happening, i think russia is less diverse as the USA for example.

[Safe-Keeper]

I still can't get over our collecting reaction to this. This is so far removed from Dubya's PATRIOT ACT-kind of thinking it's just jawdropping. - This is something we have to live with

Pst* manager emphasizes that in their threat assessments have pointed out that so-called solo terrorists operating on their own, can hardly be captured.
- We said clearly in our threat assessment that solo terrorism, or what we call the lonely wolves, lone wolves, is something we can't catch in the kind of society we want to have. This is something we must live with, because we want a free, democratic society.
http://translate.google.com/translate?js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&sl=no&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nrk.no%2Fnyheter%2Fnorge%2F1.77 26734&act=url

*Norwegian Police Security Service (http://www.pst.politiet.no/default____162.aspx)

[Ryokan]

The police was actually positive to allowing him to wear his uniform, and recommended it to the court. They promised him that they'd fetch it for him if the court allowed it. The court disagreed, however.

[Lucian]

The police was actually positive to allowing him to wear his uniform, and recommended it to the court. They promised him that they'd fetch it for him if the court allowed it. The court disagreed, however.

Perhaps the police have a better idea of how pathetically risible he'd look playing dress-up than he does.

[leftysergeant]

Perhaps the police have a better idea of how pathetically risible he'd look playing dress-up than he does.Alloing him to wear it would be to give him some control over the court room, indulging his fantasy that he is someone different from ordinary people.

The just stuck a pin in his over-inflated ego.

[icerat]

An elaborate fantasy world that has replaced his perception of reality could be a sign of schizophrenia.

You need two of the major diagnostic criteria to be considered schizoprenic. Delusions alone is not enough.

[icerat]

‎"Peaceful little Norway is showing the world how one handles this kind of situations. Right now I rank Norway as the greatest country in the world, I have never seen anything like this."

-Barrack Obama

Do you have an original source for this? Can't find anything but your reference and one on Daily Kos, and it doesn't quite sound like Obama's words, though the sentiments might be accurate

[patchbunny]

That car is just confirmation - those windows and various are enough as it is.

I'm waiting to see photos of the blast epicenter. Where was it placed? In what vehicle? Not seen any of that yet. Have photos been published?