Norwegian PM's office bombed / Youth camp spree killings

[Leif Roar]

I'm waiting to see photos of the blast epicenter. Where was it placed? In what vehicle? Not seen any of that yet. Have photos been published?

The police has not released any results from technical investigation of the bombing yet, but from what we know it appears the bomb was detonated somewhere between the buildings Høyblokken (Akersgata 42) and G4 (Einar Gerhardsens plass 1). A number of photographs and videos of this area has been shown on media, some from very shortly after the blast. Witnesses have mentioned a white van.

[JudeBrando]

Indeed, we are seeing the Right converging on terrorism, not to fight it, but to do it.
I've seen nothing but universal condemnation.
Where do we-you see "the Right converging on terrorism.. to do it"?
How can you even attempt to possibly justify such hateful rhetoric?
It is only reprehensible to use this slaughter for your political purposes in a sweeping and wholesale demonization of those you disagree with.

[Ryokan]

I've seen nothing but universal condemnation.
Where do we-you see "the Right converging on terrorism.. to do it"?
How can you even attempt to possibly justify such hateful rhetoric?
It is only reprehensible to use this slaughter for your political purposes in a sweeping and wholesale demonization of those you disagree with.

Now you know how the Muslims feel.

[Carnivore]

To the best of my knowledge we've never used this SWAT team/helicopter force. But we pay big bucks to keep them at the ready in case the **** ever hits the fan. In fact the politicians win votes by promising to lavish them with more high tech equipment all the time despite having never been needed to date. This sometimes means defunding local parks and stuff but the voters seem to have voiced their preference by reelecting those guys. We also have a local bomb squad that only ever gets action when they supervise the Mythbusters who come up here to blow stuff up rather a lot. I think the last time they actually had to diffuse a potential bomb was back in the early 90's.



It seems like what you are talking about is a perceived need to have massive law enforcement resources available and the public willingness/ ability to fund this. Some other posters seem to have taken the view that Norway should have held this attitude and made the massive investment those resources require.

I grew up in New Zealand, a country with some superficial similarities to Norway. Both countries have populations of under 5 million, both have small national police forces. In 1990 NZ police had to deal with a gun massacre in a relatively isolated area near one the main cities.

On November 13 a lone madman named David Gray went on a shooting rampage in a small village called Aramoana on a peninsula near Dunedin. He murdered 13 people, including children. The police in NZ are usually unarmed. There are regional Armed Offender Squads (SWAT type units) but that is a part time role. In the course of their normal duties AOS members are unarmed uniformed beat cops. There is not room in the police budget nor a percieved public need for full time AOS units as gun crime is still relatively rare.

David Gray began his rampage about 8pm and police were called soon after. One of the first officers to arrive was an AOS officer armed with a handgun but he was shot and killed by Gray. AOS units were called in from around the country to surround Aramoana and the country's anti terrorist police unit, the Special Tactics Group was dispatched.

The STG was also a part time unit, again the officers were usually unarmed carrying out general duties. NZ had exactly one police helicopter (with a civilian pilot) based in Auckland, over 1000km from Dunedin. The STG tried to liase with the Air Force to get transport to Dunedin, but it turned out that it would be quicker to get the first commercial flight the next morning - which is what they ended up doing.

The STG made a house to house search that took most of the day, and David Gray was finally cornered and committed suicide by cop almost a full day after the first emergency calls.

I am repeating this story as I think it highlights the difficulties that small countries can have bringing resources to bear on sudden emergencies in isolated areas. The Norwegian police apprehending the killer just 1 hour after receiving the first call from the island - in the aftermath of a terrorist attack on their capital - is a remarkable achievement. Perhaps if the police had had more helicopters and boats nearby they might have been able to intervene sooner but this is by no means certain. Helicopters cannot be held at permanent readiness for instant takeoff. They are also incredible resource hogs. A small country might have to choose between having another helicopter or staffing a police station in a small town.



I didn't say the PM isn't guarded at all. It just amazes me that there weren't snipers and other advance security forces on the island if the PM was supposed to be visiting there later. I suppose sometimes I get jealous that other countries don't have to take such extreme measures to protect their heads of government and I sort of wish they had to understand what a burden it is to countries like mine that do. I guess this is why "jealousy" is unhealthy for everyone.


You mention security for the Prime Minister, (advance teams and snipers at locations he will be for example.) I will quickly give a couple of examples of PM security from my own experience as a lowly hotel worker in NZ. The first Prime Minister I met, Jim Bolger, presided over the official opening of a hotel where I worked in Christchurch. He was accompanied by two burly police officers who stood at the back of the room he was in. This was the sum total of his security. The next Prime Minister, Jenny Shipley, used to stop in for meetings now and then. She was usually accompanied by a single copper. The next Prime Minister, Helen Clark, came to a couple of official events at my workplace. Both times she arrived on foot and on her own with absolutely no security whatsoever.

It seems to me that larger, richer countries sometimes have different "cultures" of security to smaller countries - where both the need and the available resources are less.

I did get the chance to see the difference in security expectations when President Clinton stayed at my hotel during the APEC conference in 1997. From my perspective the security was mind boggling. A month before his arrival a Secret Service contingent arrived and took over one of our boardrooms. They openly wore guns in shoulder holsters - something I had never seen in real life. They would drink at Warners in Cathedral square with the hotel staff and we got to know them a little. Very nice guys - and they were all men - friendly and polite but with absolutely no sense of humour.

Two weeks before the President's arrival a hundred Marines in civilian clothes arrived to work on the structure of the hotel. Two floors were closed off, one as an operations centre and one for the sole use of the President. These two floors were extensively rebuilt. The roof acquired a forest of antennae both for communications and jamming.

A week before Clinton arrived all deliveries to the hotel were diverted to Christchurch Central Fire Station, to be gone over by Police and Secret Service. Two days before Clinton arrived, every other guest in the hotel had to leave. The local roads and buildings were searched with chemical sniffers and dogs to check for buried bombs. I had a surreal conversation with a Secret Service agent regarding the storage arrangements of the velcro backed plastic clips that held up the skirting around a conference table that the President might conceivably sit at. My answers were referred to higher ups aboard Air Force One parked at Auckland, and from there to the White House. In the end it was decided the Secret Service would fly in their own velcro. :eye-poppi

When the President did finally arrive there were indeed sniper and Stinger teams on the surrounding rooftops and radio jammer trucks parked in front of the building.

His total stay at the hotel was less than two hours. He met with the then leader of the Oppostion and got changed for dinner at the Antarctic Centre. I can only assume the security arrangements were just as extensive there, and every single other place he ever went.

I tried to imagine the cost of this operation just for one location in terms of the NZ Police annual budget but I just couldn't.

One of the Secret Service guys told me that because New Zealand was considered by them to be a very safe destination, the President was only travelling with a third of his normal security.

I can see why this is necessary for the USA but I am glad that countries like Norway are able to take a different approach and the collective response of Norwegians to this tragedy is incredibly heartening.

[Ryokan]

Anders Behring Breivik had extensive links to the far-Right English Defence League, senior members of the group have admitted.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/norway/8661139/Norway-killer-Anders-Behring-Breivik-had-extensive-links-to-English-Defence-League.html

[Ryokan]

Has ABB's Templar mentor, Richard the Lionheart, been found?

A blog was discovered by The Daily Telegraph written by an individual called the Lionheart, who has written about “Moslem’s soldiers ... seeking to conquer our lands and take our civilized world back into the 'Dark Ages’”. He writes that “God will revive the ancient order of the Knights Templar and count me worthy to die amongst them in service of my God in protection of the Christian and Jewish world”.

The blogger’s real name is Paul Ray, from Bedfordshire, who described himself as one of the “founding fathers” of the right-wing English Defence League. Mr Ray was arrested three years ago on suspicion of stirring up racial hatred with material on his blog.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/norway/8661131/Norway-shooting-British-police-investigating-Knights-Templar-right-wing-radicals.html

ETA: His blog: http://lionheartuk.blogspot.com/ It's filled with Templar symbols, pictures with text has similar style to those in ABB's video, and many of the pictures of Templars is the same pictures in that video.

ETA2: Searching for Richard the Lionheart and the Knights Templar. Why do I feel we're suddenly living in a Dan Brown novel?

[Leif Roar]

BBC video of the Oslo Rose March (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14281494)

[AdMan]

Has ABB's Templar mentor, Richard the Lionheart, been found?



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/norway/8661131/Norway-shooting-British-police-investigating-Knights-Templar-right-wing-radicals.html

ETA: His blog: http://lionheartuk.blogspot.com/ It's filled with Templar symbols, pictures with text has similar style to those in ABB's video, and many of the pictures of Templars is the same pictures in that video.



Interesting. From the latest blog post (dated today, July 25th), it sounds like the right-wing extremists are turning on each other.

Or could he be trying to direct attention away from himself?


ETA2: Searching for Richard the Lionheart and the Knights Templar. Why do I feel we're suddenly living in a Dan Brown novel?


I know what you mean! I got that feeling watching the video.

[Ryokan]

Interesting. From the latest blog post (dated today, July 25th), it sounds like the right-wing extremists are turning on each other.

Or could he be trying to direct attention away from himself?

The latter was my first though, as well as remembering that in his manifesto, ABB encouraged his supporters to show public outrage.

But for all I know, there's something to what he says. I suggest British Intelligence does a thorough check on both these guys.. :)

[bikerdruid]

From what I understand the death toll was lowered as some of the youths at the Island hadn't actually been on the Island after all. Not unusual to tell your parents you're going to a sanctioned event, but sneak off with the friends instead...

A more careful count. Early reports from a disaster or terrorist attack often get the number of victims wrong.

thanks.
small good news is better than no good news.

[Arcade22]

Indeed, we are seeing the Right converging on terrorism, not to fight it, but to do it.

Perhaps you should try to avoid the same overbearing generalizations that the terrorist used? I personally know that it's sometimes hard to do, but it's hardly in the interest of critical thinking and the effort of establishing a balanced worldview.

I've seen nothing but universal condemnation.

Just about all sane individuals, whether they are on the left or right politically, have all come out condemning this terrorist. However, that is not to say that all people are sane. You even linked to a webpage where a shrieking paranoid lunatic spreads her delusions, blaming 'the multicultural society' for this terrorist attack rather than this freak terrorist.

[JudeBrando]

It's interesting that you post a link to a blog that is repeatedly cited by the terrorist. Very telling.
Tell me...
Just about all sane individuals, whether they are on the left or right politically, have all come out condemning this terrorist. However, that is not to say that all people are sane. You even linked to a webpage where a shrieking paranoid lunatic spreads her delusions, blaming 'the multicultural society' for this terrorist attack rather than this freak terrorist."A shrieking paranoid lunatic spreads her delusions" is very telling about you.

Here is Pam Geller from just several hours ago today. Your insulting characterization is ridiculous.
She starts at 12:30:
http://www.khow.com/cc-common/podcast/single_page.html?podcast=fullshows_capsil&selected_podcast=072511HOUR1.mp3

http://www.khow.com/cc-common/mediaplayer/player.html?redir=yes&mps=fullshows_capsil.php&mid=http://a1135.g.akamai.net/f/1135/18227/1h/cchannel.download.akamai.com/18227/podcast/DENVER-CO/KHOW-AM/072511HOUR1.mp3?CPROG=PCAST&CPROG=RICHMEDIA&MARKET=DENVER-CO&NG_FORMAT=&NG_ID=&OR_NEWSFORMAT=&OWNER=&SERVER_NAME=www.khow.com&SITE_ID=636&STATION_ID=KHOW-AM&TRACK=

[banquetbear]

You mention security for the Prime Minister, (advance teams and snipers at locations he will be for example.) I will quickly give a couple of examples of PM security from my own experience as a lowly hotel worker in NZ. The first Prime Minister I met, Jim Bolger, presided over the official opening of a hotel where I worked in Christchurch. He was accompanied by two burly police officers who stood at the back of the room he was in. This was the sum total of his security. The next Prime Minister, Jenny Shipley, used to stop in for meetings now and then. She was usually accompanied by a single copper. The next Prime Minister, Helen Clark, came to a couple of official events at my workplace. Both times she arrived on foot and on her own with absolutely no security whatsoever.

It seems to me that larger, richer countries sometimes have different "cultures" of security to smaller countries - where both the need and the available resources are less.

I did get the chance to see the difference in security expectations when President Clinton stayed at my hotel during the APEC conference in 1997. From my perspective the security was mind boggling. A month before his arrival a Secret Service contingent arrived and took over one of our boardrooms. They openly wore guns in shoulder holsters - something I had never seen in real life. They would drink at Warners in Cathedral square with the hotel staff and we got to know them a little. Very nice guys - and they were all men - friendly and polite but with absolutely no sense of humour.

Two weeks before the President's arrival a hundred Marines in civilian clothes arrived to work on the structure of the hotel. Two floors were closed off, one as an operations centre and one for the sole use of the President. These two floors were extensively rebuilt. The roof acquired a forest of antennae both for communications and jamming.

A week before Clinton arrived all deliveries to the hotel were diverted to Christchurch Central Fire Station, to be gone over by Police and Secret Service. Two days before Clinton arrived, every other guest in the hotel had to leave. The local roads and buildings were searched with chemical sniffers and dogs to check for buried bombs. I had a surreal conversation with a Secret Service agent regarding the storage arrangements of the velcro backed plastic clips that held up the skirting around a conference table that the President might conceivably sit at. My answers were referred to higher ups aboard Air Force One parked at Auckland, and from there to the White House. In the end it was decided the Secret Service would fly in their own velcro. :eye-poppi

When the President did finally arrive there were indeed sniper and Stinger teams on the surrounding rooftops and radio jammer trucks parked in front of the building.

His total stay at the hotel was less than two hours. He met with the then leader of the Oppostion and got changed for dinner at the Antarctic Centre. I can only assume the security arrangements were just as extensive there, and every single other place he ever went.

I tried to imagine the cost of this operation just for one location in terms of the NZ Police annual budget but I just couldn't.

One of the Secret Service guys told me that because New Zealand was considered by them to be a very safe destination, the President was only travelling with a third of his normal security.

I can see why this is necessary for the USA but I am glad that countries like Norway are able to take a different approach and the collective response of Norwegians to this tragedy is incredibly heartening.

...just wanted to post quickly because its nice to hear from another hospo Kiwi! I was in Auckland at the time of APEC, I was supposed to be the personal butler for President Joe Estrada. Unfortunately on arrival to the country the delegation decided that our hotel "wasn't good enough" for him, so the most excitement I got during APEC was serving a delegation of 30 people dinner at three in the morning. The velcro clips story is funny: I can't tell you how much drama those things have caused me over the years in so many different ways!!!

I worked at Bellamys Parliamentary Caterers for a couple of years, and I cannot talk about what security is/was available for our Prime Minister and visiting dignitaries, but I did enjoy reading your observations as it brings back many memories. To the people of Norway: there simply aren't words to express my sorrow. :( Ake ake kia kaha. "Forever and ever stand strong."

[Rufo]

"A shrieking paranoid lunatic spreads her delusions" is very telling about you.

Here is Pam Geller from just several hours ago today. Your insulting characterization is ridiculous.
She starts at 12:30:
http://www.khow.com/cc-common/podcast/single_page.html?podcast=fullshows_capsil&selected_podcast=072511HOUR1.mp3

http://www.khow.com/cc-common/mediaplayer/player.html?redir=yes&mps=fullshows_capsil.php&mid=http://a1135.g.akamai.net/f/1135/18227/1h/cchannel.download.akamai.com/18227/podcast/DENVER-CO/KHOW-AM/072511HOUR1.mp3?CPROG=PCAST&CPROG=RICHMEDIA&MARKET=DENVER-CO&NG_FORMAT=&NG_ID=&OR_NEWSFORMAT=&OWNER=&SERVER_NAME=www.khow.com&SITE_ID=636&STATION_ID=KHOW-AM&TRACK=
Well, she claims the shooter never described himself as a Christian, even after referring to his manifesto. If anything, that is ridiculous (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=7399808#post7399808).

I guess a lot of people are desperately on the defensive right now, but it's still not right to lie.

[Travis]

From what I understand the death toll was lowered as some of the youths at the Island hadn't actually been on the Island after all. Not unusual to tell your parents you're going to a sanctioned event, but sneak off with the friends instead...

Teenagers actually do that? I thought that was just a bad plot device in movies and TV shows.

I guess I'm outing myself as having been a very boring and straight laced teenager. :o

I was trying to think of a polite response to the insistance on helicopters in some quarters, but that about covers it. Obvious in the States there is enough demand for them in general, not just for exception events of this type (or even approaching them), so the lack of them must seem bizarre from their point of view.

London "only" has three police helicopters, so I can understand how Oslo or even the whole of Norway only merits one.

But do all of the London police helicopter pilots go on vacation at the same time?

That was the thing that struck me as weird.

You mention security for the Prime Minister, (advance teams and snipers at locations he will be for example.) I will quickly give a couple of examples of PM security from my own experience as a lowly hotel worker in NZ. The first Prime Minister I met, Jim Bolger, presided over the official opening of a hotel where I worked in Christchurch. He was accompanied by two burly police officers who stood at the back of the room he was in. This was the sum total of his security. The next Prime Minister, Jenny Shipley, used to stop in for meetings now and then. She was usually accompanied by a single copper. The next Prime Minister, Helen Clark, came to a couple of official events at my workplace. Both times she arrived on foot and on her own with absolutely no security whatsoever.

It seems to me that larger, richer countries sometimes have different "cultures" of security to smaller countries - where both the need and the available resources are less.

I did get the chance to see the difference in security expectations when President Clinton stayed at my hotel during the APEC conference in 1997. From my perspective the security was mind boggling. A month before his arrival a Secret Service contingent arrived and took over one of our boardrooms. They openly wore guns in shoulder holsters - something I had never seen in real life. They would drink at Warners in Cathedral square with the hotel staff and we got to know them a little. Very nice guys - and they were all men - friendly and polite but with absolutely no sense of humour.

Two weeks before the President's arrival a hundred Marines in civilian clothes arrived to work on the structure of the hotel. Two floors were closed off, one as an operations centre and one for the sole use of the President. These two floors were extensively rebuilt. The roof acquired a forest of antennae both for communications and jamming.

A week before Clinton arrived all deliveries to the hotel were diverted to Christchurch Central Fire Station, to be gone over by Police and Secret Service. Two days before Clinton arrived, every other guest in the hotel had to leave. The local roads and buildings were searched with chemical sniffers and dogs to check for buried bombs. I had a surreal conversation with a Secret Service agent regarding the storage arrangements of the velcro backed plastic clips that held up the skirting around a conference table that the President might conceivably sit at. My answers were referred to higher ups aboard Air Force One parked at Auckland, and from there to the White House. In the end it was decided the Secret Service would fly in their own velcro. :eye-poppi

When the President did finally arrive there were indeed sniper and Stinger teams on the surrounding rooftops and radio jammer trucks parked in front of the building.

His total stay at the hotel was less than two hours. He met with the then leader of the Oppostion and got changed for dinner at the Antarctic Centre. I can only assume the security arrangements were just as extensive there, and every single other place he ever went.

I tried to imagine the cost of this operation just for one location in terms of the NZ Police annual budget but I just couldn't.

One of the Secret Service guys told me that because New Zealand was considered by them to be a very safe destination, the President was only travelling with a third of his normal security.

I can see why this is necessary for the USA but I am glad that countries like Norway are able to take a different approach and the collective response of Norwegians to this tragedy is incredibly heartening.

I can see how a country could not have that kind of security (by the way it sounds like the Governor of California get's more security than your Prime Minister) if it has no history needing it. For those in the know, how many assassination attempts are there against the Prime Minister of either New Zealand or Norway?

IIRC every America President since JFK has had multiple assassination attempts. I know this may seem tangentially related but it may serve as a bellwether for the amount of security needed in the respective cultures.

It may be similar to the issue of arming cops with guns. In America not having our cops armed would be unthinkable as cops come under fire from gunmen quite often (my own step-dad was once shot while in the California Highway Patrol by a guy that just opened fire for no apparent reason). In fact, after the North Hollywood Shootout, it was made a public policy to get cops even heavier military like firepower.

[commandlinegamer]

The "Europe soft on punishment for terror angle" as seen by a couple of US commentators:

http://www.commentarymagazine.com/author/michael-rubin/

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2011/07/25/ED111KENUV.DTL

Via Robert Black's Lockerbie blog:

http://lockerbiecase.blogspot.com/2011/07/anders-behring-breivik-and-abdelbaset.html

[Rolfe]

I don't find the propensity of US commentators to criticise the penal and justice systems of other countries very edifying. It's not as if they're such a shining example. (And Megrahi served 14 days in prison for each one of the people he didn't kill, they can't even do arithmetic.)

Which country has the lower rate of violent incidents, the USA or Norway? Which country has its people living in fear? Where would you rather live, let's face it?

I don't think there are any precautions that could prevent what happened last Friday, if you have someone both as cunning and as deluded as ABB. All you can do is spend a heap of money and generate a climate of fear, and in the end it still happens. I think, even, that without the climate of fear, you'll tend to get fewer people like ABB in the first place.

Rolfe.

[richardm]

I don't think there are any precautions that could prevent what happened last Friday, if you have someone both as cunning and as deluded as ABB.

Quite so.

I'm also not sure that I agree with calling this man a terrorist; to my mind that implies not only a political motive but also the means to sustain the terror beyond a single attack. Seems to me that he's just a lone nutter - a well organised one to be sure, but "just" a man on a rampage not unlike Thomas Hamilton's. And nobody calls him a terrorist.

To apply the word "terrorist" to every violent thing that happens runs the risk of bringing on an inappropriate reaction, such as insisting that we have helicopters loaded up with heavily armed police ready to go at all times "just in case".

At least, I hope he's just a lone nutter. He has hinted at things like cells and whatnot which, if true, would indeed justify the use of the word.

[DC]

Tell me...
"A shrieking paranoid lunatic spreads her delusions" is very telling about you.

Here is Pam Geller from just several hours ago today. Your insulting characterization is ridiculous.
She starts at 12:30:
http://www.khow.com/cc-common/podcast/single_page.html?podcast=fullshows_capsil&selected_podcast=072511HOUR1.mp3

http://www.khow.com/cc-common/mediaplayer/player.html?redir=yes&mps=fullshows_capsil.php&mid=http://a1135.g.akamai.net/f/1135/18227/1h/cchannel.download.akamai.com/18227/podcast/DENVER-CO/KHOW-AM/072511HOUR1.mp3?CPROG=PCAST&CPROG=RICHMEDIA&MARKET=DENVER-CO&NG_FORMAT=&NG_ID=&OR_NEWSFORMAT=&OWNER=&SERVER_NAME=www.khow.com&SITE_ID=636&STATION_ID=KHOW-AM&TRACK=

it's like with Goebbels the poor guy, he was blamed for telling the "trueth" also.....

not for one second it came to their mind that their paranoid claims about moslems are worng and helped a great deal to keep Anders paranoid fantasy world alive.

[Travis]

I don't find the propensity of US commentators to criticise the penal and justice systems of other countries very edifying. It's not as if they're such a shining example. (And Megrahi served 14 days in prison for each one of the people he didn't kill, they can't even do arithmetic.)

Which country has the lower rate of violent incidents, the USA or Norway? Which country has its people living in fear? Where would you rather live, let's face it?

I don't think there are any precautions that could prevent what happened last Friday, if you have someone both as cunning and as deluded as ABB. All you can do is spend a heap of money and generate a climate of fear, and in the end it still happens. I think, even that without the climate of fear, you'll tend to get fewer people like ABB in the first place.

Rolfe.


If you can figure out how to bring down the rate of violence in the USA you are on the path to being a very well remembered person. We're about out of ideas over here.

On this subject....I'm not sure there's anything Norway should change as a result of this. More police certainly doesn't stop people from going insane.

[Rolfe]

If you can figure out how to bring down the rate of violence in the USA you are on the path to being a very well remembered person. We're about out of ideas over here.


Oh, I don't have any answers. Just some appreciation of the problem. (The problem to my mind is the unhealthy fascination and obsession with firearms in the USA, also the mindset that seems to regard any stranger as a potential threat, and I have no idea what you can do about that.) I just don't appreciate commentators from a country with so many well-documented problems in this respect criticising the policies of a country with an extremely low rate of trouble, when an isolated incident happens.

On this subject....I'm not sure there's anything Norway should change as a result of this. More police certainly doesn't stop people from going insane.


It's impossible to insulate 100% of people from all possible harm, 100% of the time. Of course individuals and organisations should do everything that is reasonably possible. However, if we wanted to reduce risk to approaching zero we'd probably have to ban cars for a start.

It's only natural to start throwing blame around when something like this happens, though I was saddened to see respected BBC commentators pontificating that there were serious questions to ask about the time it took police to get to the island in sufficient force to stop ABB. As we've seen, they did a pretty good job. At least they didn't sit on the shore for two or three hours refusing to go in because of "health and safety" concerns.

But in fact I think when people consider it calmly, this has to be seen as an unavoidable incident. Probably the best you can do is have a society that doesn't breed people like ABB, but if any country has done its best on that one it has to be Norway. It isn't something you can reduce to zero, ever.

Rolfe.

[timhau]

Well, I could be wrong, but I observe that diverse communities tend to have more strife than nondiverse communities. I compare, for example, Japan to the west bank.

And there's never been terrorism in Japan.

Oh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarin_gas_attack_on_the_Tokyo_subway) wait... (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matsumoto_incident)

[Leviath]

Operation UnManifest:
http://pastebin.com/DktSNbme

No further comments needed ;)

[timhau]

Operation UnManifest:
http://pastebin.com/DktSNbme

No further comments needed ;)

I love it.

[Travis]

It's impossible to insulate 100% of people from all possible harm, 100% of the time. Of course individuals and organisations should do everything that is reasonably possible. However, if we wanted to reduce risk to approaching zero we'd probably have to ban cars for a start.

It's only natural to start throwing blame around when something like this happens, though I was saddened to see respected BBC commentators pontificating that there were serious questions to ask ebout the time it took police to get to the island in sufficient force to stop ABB. As we've seen, they did a pretty good job. At least they didn't sit on the shore for two or three hours refusing to go in because of "health and safety" concerns.

But in fact I think when people consider it calmly, this has to be seen as an unavoidable incident. Probably the best you can do is have a society that doesn't breed people like ABB, but if any country has done its best on that one it has to be Norway. It isn't something you can reduce to zero, ever.

Rolfe.

The only criticism I can think to level is that (if true) it is nuts to have both your helicopter pilots on vacation at the same time. Now, as it happened, it seems that the police there did a very admirable job of making up for that but that does seem like a policy that needs to be overhauled. After all it is good to have those pilots available for things other than the occasional madman.

[Leif Roar]

The only criticism I can think to level is that (if true) it is nuts to have both your helicopter pilots on vacation at the same time.

The helicopter is question is merely a recon platform. While it's certainly useful to have in many situations, in particular car chases, it's not an essential resource that must be available at all times.

[leftysergeant]

The helicopter is question is merely a recon platform. While it's certainly useful to have in many situations, in particular car chases, it's not an essential resource that must be available at all times.To add to that, I am not sure that they would have even been able to distinguish the shooter from fleeing victims under all that natural cover, even with really sensitivce FLIR devices.

And they would be every bit as vulnerable to small arms fire as any other target in the area. They could, of course, not know until there were enough boots on the ground, even how many shooters there were.

[Rolfe]

I heard one commentator from Norway say they couldn't really have landed a helicopter on the island anyway.

Rolfe.

[Arcade22]

Here is Pam Geller from just several hours ago today. Your insulting characterization is ridiculous.

How else am i going to refer to someone who is a birther, who supports Mladic and other Serbian war criminals (because they apparently fought against the Islamic invasion of Europe) and believes the whole western world is under attack by Islam and that just about anyone who disagrees with and challenges her is a part of the 'Islamic supremacist agenda'?

Oh wait. You agree with her. That's why you're so offended. My bad.

Anyone can now take a look at her blog and see how insane she is.

[sts60]

The helicopter is question is merely a recon platform. While it's certainly useful to have in many situations, in particular car chases, it's not an essential resource that must be available at all times.
It's hard for me to really grasp such an outlook. But then, I live in Maryland on the edge of the greater DC area, and there are something like five dozen different police agencies at all levels, from municipal PDs to County and State police to the U.S. Park Police, to special-purpose departments (not just the transit system and the airports; the water/sewer system has it's own PD). As a volunteer FF in this area, I know that if we yelled for help on the radio we'd be crawling with cops in a dozen different uniforms inside of five minutes. Heck, the Md. State Police alone have a dozen sleek helicopters on alert 24/7, a couple of fixed-wing air p

[leftysergeant]

That evil witch Geller is still a potential terrorist, whether actually taking part as a grunt or as what William Pierce would call a "legal." It is her job to deflect public criticism of her movement, even as she keeps the hate alive.

(I wonder how that ugly little troll would feel if she ever figured out that she was being used by the Nazis as a "useful idiot.")

[Safe-Keeper]

The "Europe soft on punishment for terror angle" as seen by a couple of US commentators:

http://www.commentarymagazine.com/author/michael-rubin/

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2011/07/25/ED111KENUV.DTL

Via Robert Black's Lockerbie blog:

http://lockerbiecase.blogspot.com/2011/07/anders-behring-breivik-and-abdelbaset.htmlLet them. We know that nothing short of torture (literally:rolleyes:) is enough to quench the voracious blood thirst of certain people over there. I couldn't care less.

[CptColumbo]

Glenn Beck decides to dig a deep hole:

Beck said the camp "sounds a little like the Hitler Youth. I mean, who does a camp for kids that's all about politics? Disturbing."

He then went on to say that he had warned that there would be horrible consequences due to the rise of what he called the "evil" strain of Islam in Europe. Islam, he said, is "squeezing the neck" of the continent, and multiculturalism is "killing" it.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/07/25/glenn-beck-norway-hitler-youth-bin-laden_n_908753.html

He did denounce the suspected killers actions, but apparently agrees with his politics.

[quadraginta]

Quite so.

I'm also not sure that I agree with calling this man a terrorist; to my mind that implies not only a political motive but also the means to sustain the terror beyond a single attack. Seems to me that he's just a lone nutter - a well organised one to be sure, but "just" a man on a rampage not unlike Thomas Hamilton's. And nobody calls him a terrorist.

To apply the word "terrorist" to every violent thing that happens runs the risk of bringing on an inappropriate reaction, such as insisting that we have helicopters loaded up with heavily armed police ready to go at all times "just in case".

At least, I hope he's just a lone nutter. He has hinted at things like cells and whatnot which, if true, would indeed justify the use of the word.


Apparently the FBI disagrees with you.

Someone upthread linked to an FBI document about terrorism and in it they very specifically expained that motive was the guiding rule for their definition, not frequency or allegiances with self-avowed or otherwise defined terrorist groups. They even cited an example of a lone nutter who they determined was not involved with any organization and who had no expectation of getting away with what he did as an illustration of their definition.

[Schrodinger's Cat]

Glenn Beck decides to dig a deep hole:



http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/07/25/glenn-beck-norway-hitler-youth-bin-laden_n_908753.html

He did denounce the suspected killers actions, but apparently agrees with his politics.

I just saw this as well and was about to post it. Sickening.

[pakeha]

Glenn Beck decides to dig a deep hole:



http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/07/25/glenn-beck-norway-hitler-youth-bin-laden_n_908753.html

He did denounce the suspected killers actions, but apparently agrees with his politics.

Ninja'd!
Here's the Telegraph's take on it.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/norway/8660986/Norway-shooting-Glenn-Beck-compares-dead-teenagers-to-Hitler-youth.html

Despite Beck expressing surprise that political movements would hold camps for children, followers of his 9/12 Project – which aims to "recapture the spirit of the day after America was attacked" – have this summer been doing just that.

Organisers of the "vacation liberty schools" in several states told the Daily Telegraph how they taught children as young as eight a Tea Party-endorsed curriculum spanning religion, economics and political principles.

[Travis]

The helicopter is question is merely a recon platform. While it's certainly useful to have in many situations, in particular car chases, it's not an essential resource that must be available at all times.

I was thinking it would be useful for search and rescue. That's the primary reason our local law enforcement keeps it's two helicopters on stand bye. You never know when someone will get swept down one of our rivers and you suddenly need several helicopters to search for them.

Glenn Beck decides to dig a deep hole:



http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/07/25/glenn-beck-norway-hitler-youth-bin-laden_n_908753.html

He did denounce the suspected killers actions, but apparently agrees with his politics.

I think I just threw up a little bit in my mouth. :boggled: So he's blaming the victims???????????

[TmoonII]

Trying to label his guy anything other than a cold blooded murderer is foolish. The only benefit I see to labelling him as a terrorist is if Norway wants another country to sentence him to die.

[Safe-Keeper]

I considered commenting on the Huff Post article, or writing to Beck, but it's not worth responding to, to be honest.

What I'd really love to see is one of the survivors writing to him, though, describing what the camps are really like and expressing their dismay of his hurtful ignorance. Probably just about the only thing that would have a real impact.

[ZouPrime]

I really, really don't see how this could NOT be labeled as terrorism. That the perpetrator is a nut or not doesn't change jack all. His motives were clearly and very obviously political, by his own admission.

The word terrorism as been created to describe these sorts of crimes.

[Safe-Keeper]

I really, really don't see how this could NOT be labeled as terrorism.Because the perp is a white Christian.

[Hawk one]

Because the perp is a white Christian.

You said it. (http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2011/07/23/nyt/index.html)

At least the Norwegian media didn't fall into the same trap. NRK (Norwegian equivalent to BBC) is having all the cases about this put in under the main tag "Terrorism in Norway"

[Darat]

You said it. (http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2011/07/23/nyt/index.html)

At least the Norwegian media didn't fall into the same trap. NRK (Norwegian equivalent to BBC) is having all the cases about this put in under the main tag "Terrorism in Norway"

(Embarrassed by the BBC's less than stringent fact checking at the start of reporting.) I think in many parts of Europe we are unfortunately well used to the idea that most terrorism isn't by muslims.

[Rolfe]

I think the main question is whether the definition of terrorism requires an organisation - whether it's the IRA, or ETA, or even that peculiar SNLA group.

If it doesn't, if a lone nutter can be a terrorist, then this is one of them.

Rolfe.

[Travis]

Did they ever label the Unabomber a terrorist?

[AdMan]

Did they ever label the Unabomber a terrorist?


According to the Wikipedia article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unabomber) on Kaczynski, the FBI labeled him a "domestic terrorist."

[CptColumbo]

I think I just threw up a little bit in my mouth. :boggled: So he's blaming the victims???????????
I don't know if it's "blaming the victims," but it is an attempt to demonize them.

[Information Analyst]

Oh, we've got our survivors, too. There's a support page for a girl who was shot twice (in the chest), survived by playing dead, and then proceeded to swim to safety. She aspires to become Prime Minister when she grows up.

http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=194150563975102

My kind of girl:)!

ETA: oh, and she's doing just fine, circumstances taken into consideration. Posting on FB and all.

Even though I've done open-water swimming, I'm not sure I'd want to do that distance uninjured! What temperature would the water be at this time of year?

[Safe-Keeper]

Fairly warm, actually. About 17-19 degrees. (http://www.friluftsetaten.oslo.kommune.no/badeinfo/badetemperaturer/)

[Travis]

According to the Wikipedia article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unabomber) on Kaczynski, the FBI labeled him a "domestic terrorist."

Then labeling acts like this as "terrorism" is not without precedent. Are there different procedures for a charge of terrorism in Norway? Might there be a change of venue for the trial if that happened?

[Darat]

Just been listening to a press conference his lawyer held. I agree with the lawyer that this entire incident is insane, but for me whether his client is fit to be tried is predicated on whether he knows right from wrong. And according to his own words he does, he however believed that the means justify the ends.

[richardm]

I really, really don't see how this could NOT be labeled as terrorism.
Because the perp is a white Christian.


I'm not quite sure what you're insinuating here but I can assure you that having spent most of my formative years hoping not to be blown up by the white Christians in the IRA, I'm under no illusions that race or religion is any guide to terrorist tendencies.

I think I made it quite clear why I wasn't sure if it should be called terrorism.

Edit: Mind you the Norwegians have charged him with terrorism so they're obviously quite comfortable with the label.

[Information Analyst]

Fairly warm, actually. About 17-19 degrees. (http://www.friluftsetaten.oslo.kommune.no/badeinfo/badetemperaturer/)
I'd rate that as "bearable" without a wetsuit. :cool: Certainly not something I'd like to do on the spur of the moment without any preparation!

[sophia8]

It's not just Glen Beck who is blaming the victims (http://americanholocaustcoming.blogspot.com/2011/07/hidden-truth-about-norway-terrorist.html):
Now on to the Labor Party Youth Camp. This was not a camp where kids sing songs and roast weenies around the campfire. No sirree. This was a criminally anti-semitic indoctrination and brainwash camp. And guess who showed up just before the attack to wish the kids well and pose under a big, plastic Boycott Israel sign, the unbiased Foreign Minister:

At the same time, Norway supports Palestinian independence, de jure UN membership, and Foreign Minister Jonas Gahr Store heads an international aid committee for Palestine. Moreover, its parliament earlier passed initiatives critical of Israel, and Finance Minister Kristin Halvorsen (from 2005 - 2009, now Education Minister) proposed boycotting Israeli products...The teenagers who took part in Norway's ruling party youth camp in the island of Utoya met with Foreign Minister Jonas Gahr Stoere and demanded he recognize Palestine on Wednesday, two days before the deadly terror attack which left many of them dead.

Gahr Stoere told the youths that the Palestinians deserve a country of their own and that the occupation must end, Norwegian website Politisk reported. Several of the youths waved signs reading: "Boycott Israel."

[NoZed Avenger]

According to his manifesto I'm a Category B Traitor, and will be held accountable in a future Nuremberg-style trial. Punishment: death penalty and expropriation of property/funds.

So . . .


Can I have your stuff?

[Mycroft]

It's not just Glen Beck who is blaming the victims (http://americanholocaustcoming.blogspot.com/2011/07/hidden-truth-about-norway-terrorist.html):

Wow, that's really disgusting of Beck.

[Ryokan]

British police are investigating a cell of right wing radicals known as the Knights Templar, as it emerged that a blogger using the name Lionheart had called for a revival of the movement.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/norway/8661131/Norway-shooting-British-police-investigating-Knights-Templar-right-wing-radicals.html

Good to see that the British are on the case.

[Vortigern99]

It's not just Glen Beck who is blaming the victims (http://americanholocaustcoming.blogspot.com/2011/07/hidden-truth-about-norway-terrorist.html):

Beck's "blaming the victims" aside, I'm interested to discover the pro-Palestinian stance of the youth camp. That is not information available in the mainstream press articles that I've been reading.

[Ryokan]

Beck's "blaming the victims" aside, I'm interested to discover the pro-Palestinian stance of the youth camp. That is not information available in the mainstream press articles that I've been reading.

The Labour Youth is very pro-Palestinian state, yes, and are much more radical on the issue than the Labour Party.

[AdMan]

Norwegian youth parties are seeing a surge in recruitment:

The various youth parties Aftenposten.no has spoken with all say that they experience a tremendous commitment from young people who want to become a member after the tragic events of Utøya and the government quarter.

Google translation of news article (http://translate.google.com/translate?js=n&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&sl=no&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.aftenposten.no%2Fnyheter%2Firik s%2Farticle4184188.ece&act=url).

:thumbsup:

[Vortigern99]

@ Ryokan:

I see. Thank you for the explanation/clarification. It's important to understand the shooter's motives, however insane or perverse they are.

[Ryokan]

Yeah, I just read that. All youth parties are experiencing a huge increase in new membership.. If ABB wanted to hurt our democracy, he failed.. :)

[Darat]

Yeah, I just read that. All youth parties are experiencing a huge increase in new membership.. If ABB wanted to hurt our democracy, he failed.. :)

Good - as the mayor said that is what his real punishment will be.

[Vortigern99]

Charles Manson's stated goal was to incite a "race war" with the killings in the Hollywood Hills. That turned out so well, this guy Breivnik (sp?) must have thought he'd continue Manson's brilliant plan. :mad:

[Safe-Keeper]

What doesn't kill you makes you stronger, they say... seems to hold true on a national level for us Norsemen, too.

[BenBurch]

More news on what motivated the guy, according to a reporter I know; Climate Change. He thought that AGW was a fraud and was a plot to foster World Communism.

[CptColumbo]

It's not just Glen Beck who is blaming the victims (http://americanholocaustcoming.blogspot.com/2011/07/hidden-truth-about-norway-terrorist.html):

I believe the phrase I am thinking of rhymes with clucking bell.

[icerat]

More news on what motivated the guy, according to a reporter I know; Climate Change. He thought that AGW was a fraud and was a plot to foster World Communism.

His manifesto quotes large chunks from a lot of different people and it's often hard to tell which parts are his writing and which parts are someone else's. I think the anti-AGW stuff was actually someone else's writings, though obviously the fact he republished it says something about his views.

[Kestrel]

More news on what motivated the guy, according to a reporter I know; Climate Change. He thought that AGW was a fraud and was a plot to foster World Communism.

We could round up every nut case that believes this, but then the US Congress would not have a quorum. :rolleyes:

[Safe-Keeper]

A counterpoint to the archetypical post-attack scene of the angry crowd with raised fists...

http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/iriks/article4184567.ece

"We are so few in this country. Every fallen is a brother and friend".

[Kestrel]

A counterpoint to the archetypical post-attack scene of the angry crowd with raised fists...

http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/iriks/article4184567.ece

"We are so few in this country. Every fallen is a brother and friend".

Norway did not deserve this horror, but they are handling it well.

[Tsukasa Buddha]

I heard one commentator from Norway say they couldn't really have landed a helicopter on the island anyway.

Rolfe.

You mean they don't have trained paratroopers at the ready? We need an inquiry.

[Tsukasa Buddha]

I was actually kind of hoping Norway would increase security a bit. To me it seems ridiculously naive to have a culture that relies on the mythical "goodness" of people. Something that I think only happens in spite of human society in the rare few cases that it does manifest.

But, that does seem to be what they are doing, so I wish them the best. Maybe it will prove people such as myself, that have an inherent mistrust of human society, wrong. It would be good to be wrong on this issue.

I would hope that they continued as they were before, perhaps with renewed convictions, but as a foreigner I don't think it is my place.

[BenBurch]

Security needs to exist, but should be largely invisible to the average person. I would favor no checks at the airports whatsoever except for individuals pulled from the line because, yes, we profiled them. Because when you let fear change the way you live, the terrorists have won. I really believe that.

[Ryokan]

Security needs to exist, but should be largely invisible to the average person. I would favor no checks at the airports whatsoever except for individuals pulled from the line because, yes, we profiled them. Because when you let fear change the way you live, the terrorists have won. I really believe that.

This guy would never have been profiled.

[BenBurch]

This guy would never have been profiled.

And you never will protect against a sufficiently determined person. But profiling is behavioral in essence. YES, if you see a person with a Yemen passport who has a one-way ticket, you have a closer look at that person, but you also have a look at people who exhibit certain behaviors, and this guy is squirrelly enough that I think he would alert an observer trained to pick such things out.

[Noztradamus]

His manifesto quotes large chunks from a lot of different people and it's often hard to tell which parts are his writing and which parts are someone else's. I think the anti-AGW stuff was actually someone else's writings, though obviously the fact he republished it says something about his views.


I've decided to blame John Stuart Mill for this terrorist attack man caused disaster.


Or, Anders could be just nuts

[tyr_13]

Well there might be some good out of this on this side of the pond in that the danger of extreme right-wing groups (http://www.cnn.com/2011/US/07/25/domestic.extremism/index.html?hpt=hp_bn1) is being given some more attention.

[Arcade22]

Paranoid loon Robert Spencer, who is also a well known associate of the other previously mentioned paranoid loon Pamela Gellerr, was repeatedly mentioned by the terrorist and shares his delusional world-view yet apparently thought that it was wise to counter the fact that they shared pretty much the same ideology by doing the false-flag card:

The problem with this guy is that he has has brought discredit on a legitimate line of thought.

It is so obvious that the the damage he has done to the resistance to jihad movement is so extensive that it is hard not to imagine that he was actually on the other side and the that the whole manifesto is a false flag operation to draw discredit upon his enemies or else he is one of the stupidest men who has ever lived because what he has done is to set back that movement he professes to hold to.

Host: he was trying to kill the prime minister of his own country

Spencer: so he says ...


http://littlegreenfootballs.com/page/253724_Robert_Spencer-_Norway_terrori

Classy.

Notice how everyone in this pretentious pseudo-intellectual circlejerk appears to be paranoid and believing that EVERYONE is out to get them.

The all-pervasive victim complex is so laughably pathetic.

[BenBurch]

Well there might be some good out of this on this side of the pond in that the danger of extreme right-wing groups (http://www.cnn.com/2011/US/07/25/domestic.extremism/index.html?hpt=hp_bn1) is being given some more attention.

Good, because these militias and etc are dangerous in the extreme.

[Blue Mountain]

My first post on this thread.

The scale of the massacre is almost unthinkable. My heart goes out to everyone in Norway, especially to those who have lost loved ones. I'm afraid there's not much I can do from here from Canada, aside from sending good wishes your way and lending what moral support I can to you and your Prime Minister, who has taken the courageous stand that this terrible event should change the country for better and not for worse.

The survivors, too, are going to have issues down the road. Some may suffer symptoms of PTSD. I think of the boy who begged for his life after his father was killed, and was spared. I wonder how this will affect him over the next few years?

And you never will protect against a sufficiently determined person. But profiling is behavioral in essence. YES, if you see a person with a Yemen passport who has a one-way ticket, you have a closer look at that person, but you also have a look at people who exhibit certain behaviors, and this guy is squirrelly enough that I think he would alert an observer trained to pick such things out.

I disagree. Breivik seemed to keep his extreme views behind a carefully constructed mask.

[Pardalis]

The Pakistanis have to live with such attacks every month (http://www.zoneasia-pk.com/ZoneAsia-Pk/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=4340:timeline-of-terrorist-attacks-in-pakistan-2011&catid=38:terrorism&Itemid=61), so this guy is no better than the islamists that he's allegedly trying to wage war against, he's the same.

[Ryokan]

The Pakistanis have to live with such attacks every month (http://www.zoneasia-pk.com/ZoneAsia-Pk/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=4340:timeline-of-terrorist-attacks-in-pakistan-2011&catid=38:terrorism&Itemid=61), so this guy is no better than the islamists that he's allegedly trying to wage war against, he's the same.

He is. Reading his manifesto, his perfect utopia looks quite similar to that of the Muslim extremists, only with white Christians instead of Muslims.

[Pardalis]

He is. Reading his manifesto, his perfect utopia looks quite similar to that of the Muslim extremists, only with white Christians instead of Muslims.

Exactly, it reads exactly like OBL's fatwas. These guys have more in common than they would like to admit.

[DC]

he is indeed

[leftysergeant]

He is. Reading his manifesto, his perfect utopia looks quite similar to that of the Muslim extremists, only with white Christians instead of Muslims.Well, he is much like the Wahabis in his attitude toward women. Both are, however, in conflict with the Qur'an.

The enemy is neither Christianity nor Islam, but primative superstition and hubris.

[DC]

Well, he is much like the Wahabis in his attitude toward women. Both are, however, in conflict with the Qur'an.

The enemy is neither Christianity nor Islam, but primative superstition and hubris.

:confused:

[leftysergeant]

:confused:The extremists of either faith are probably going to meet on the road to hell at the End of Days.

[DC]

The extremists of either faith are probably going to meet on the road to hell at the End of Days.

oh noo i will have to spend the rest of my eternety with them :(

[Information Analyst]

British police are investigating a cell of right wing radicals known as the Knights Templar, as it emerged that a blogger using the name Lionheart had called for a revival of the movement.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/norway/8661131/Norway-shooting-British-police-investigating-Knights-Templar-right-wing-radicals.html

Good to see that the British are on the case.

It would be be good if Breivik's "international connections" turned out to be just another figment of his over-active imagination, but if not, a bit of house-keeping is certainly in order.

[Travis]

I tend to think for things this horrible there should be no pretense of rehabilitation. Accept that he is too horrible for it and just prepare to keep him locked up forever.

And with his attorney pleading that he's completely insane that may happen.




Now about the youth camp........how is it relevant to any of us that the Labour party is pro-Palestinian? I mean...I don't like the fact that they are pro-Palestinian but that's a political disagreement. That's something meant for proper forums for discussion and in no way shape or form should ever involve the freaking kids. And, despite what that hateful screed alleges, everything I've heard says that this was just a happy jolly summer camp for singing songs, campfires and all that jazz (disclaimer, my knowledge of summer camps is limited to Disney movies and certain horror film franchises). The idea that the kids are there to be brainwashed is so............dirty and wrong.

[Ryokan]

List of victims the police have named so far:

http://www.dagbladet.no/terror/ofrene/

Drept = Killed, Savnet = Missing (i.e. not identified - identification takes a bit longer in Norway, as the police don't rely on visual identification by relatives alone, as this has shown to not be 100% reliable.)

[pakeha]

I thought you'd like to read an analysis of the Glenn Beck comments
http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/international/glenn-beck-urged-to-increase-pressure-on-massacre-victims-201107264119/

[Leviath]

I thought you'd like to read an analysis of the Glenn Beck comments
http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/international/glenn-beck-urged-to-increase-pressure-on-massacre-victims-201107264119/

I'd rather quote norwegian political commentator and professor of comparative politics Frank Aarebrot:
He's a pig.

Seems like an accurate analysis to me.

[pakeha]

I'm fond of swine and see no reason to link them with GB.
My idea is that ridicule is all this sort of person deserves.
Still, your mileage may differ.

[Dave Rogers]

Now about the youth camp........how is it relevant to any of us that the Labour party is pro-Palestinian? I mean...I don't like the fact that they are pro-Palestinian but that's a political disagreement. That's something meant for proper forums for discussion and in no way shape or form should ever involve the freaking kids. And, despite what that hateful screed alleges, everything I've heard says that this was just a happy jolly summer camp for singing songs, campfires and all that jazz (disclaimer, my knowledge of summer camps is limited to Disney movies and certain horror film franchises). The idea that the kids are there to be brainwashed is so............dirty and wrong.

In any case, it's irrelevant. Let's suppose that a German gunman had, in 1937, attacked a Hitler Youth summer camp using an automatic weapon, and killed large numbers of the children being brainwashed into believing Nazi dogma. Would the fact that his victims were also victims of indoctrination into a racist and totalitarian belief system somehow make his acts any less evil?

Dave

[leftysergeant]

Would the fact that his victims were also victims of indoctrination into a racist and totalitarian belief system somehow make his acts any less evil?

I would have to say more evil.

It would also have been counter-productive. "Think of the CHILDREN!"

Shooting any of the adult SA dirtbags seen within fifty yards of a labor rally would have been cool.

[icerat]

On a slightly different topic, I think The People of Norway should be nominated for The Nobel Peace Prize.

Their response to this tragedy has been nothing short of inspirational and an incredible role model for the rest of the world. I firmly believe their reaction has directly affected the odds of future attacks of this nature.

A little difficult and might seem self-serving for the Nobel Committee to chose this though, but perhaps if enough of the world lobbys for it?

Here's who is able to nominate -

The right to submit proposals for the Nobel Peace Prize shall, by statute, be enjoyed by:

1. Members of national assemblies and governments of states;
2. Members of international courts;
3. University rectors; professors of social sciences, history, philosophy, law and theology; directors of peace research institutes and foreign policy institutes;
4. Persons who have been awarded the Nobel Peace Prize;
5. Board members of organizations who have been awarded the Nobel Peace Prize;
6. Active and former members of the Norwegian Nobel Committee; (proposals by members of the Committee to be submitted no later than at the first meeting of the Committee after February 1) and
7. Former advisers appointed by the Norwegian Nobel Institute.

[ginjawarrior]

dont you have to consider him "planning" this for 9 years and going to great lengths to keep it secret?
he's shown that he's happy to wait for the long game, from what i've read he seems very capable of playing the "tibetan monk" to secure his release in 30years or so

i'd also be worried about him being allowed to intermingle with general population in prison as it would give him a captive audience and the risks of him radicalizing people to his cause

its a tricky subject however i agree totally with rehabilitate rather than revenge

[Rolfe]

I suspect the psychiatrists are smart enough to be aware of those ploys, to be honest.

Rolfe.

[Travis]

In any case, it's irrelevant. Let's suppose that a German gunman had, in 1937, attacked a Hitler Youth summer camp using an automatic weapon, and killed large numbers of the children being brainwashed into believing Nazi dogma. Would the fact that his victims were also victims of indoctrination into a racist and totalitarian belief system somehow make his acts any less evil?

Dave

That is sort of what I was getting at. Their politics does not make their slaughter better or worse. It was already horrible. As horrible as it gets.

well is he?

[completely non-professional answer]I would never feel safe around the guy ever again.

[Leviath]

According to the police they probably saved time when the police boat broke down. It was initially too small for the 10 heavily geared policemen. When it broke down other boats came quickly to assistance and the SWAT team could be divided onto 2 boats, one of them a very fast one.

[DC]

That is sort of what I was getting at. Their politics does not make their slaughter better or worse. It was already horrible. As horrible as it gets.



[completely non-professional answer]I would never feel safe around the guy ever again.

i think his main problem is his paranoid world view. and i know for a fact this can change.

[Mycroft]

Now about the youth camp........how is it relevant to any of us that the Labour party is pro-Palestinian? I mean...I don't like the fact that they are pro-Palestinian but that's a political disagreement. That's something meant for proper forums for discussion and in no way shape or form should ever involve the freaking kids. And, despite what that hateful screed alleges, everything I've heard says that this was just a happy jolly summer camp for singing songs, campfires and all that jazz (disclaimer, my knowledge of summer camps is limited to Disney movies and certain horror film franchises). The idea that the kids are there to be brainwashed is so............dirty and wrong.

My understanding is the camp was for young people of a specific political ideology.

Who or what they supported is completely irrelevant, unless someone also believes it's okay to murder people you have political disagreements with.

[Alt+F4]

i think his main problem is his paranoid world view. and i know for a fact this can change.

I think it's more than this. Lots of folks are paranoid, afraid of change and other cultures. The bigger question is, what damaged this person so much? What went so wrong in his life or was his born this way, damaged. Yes, the age old question of nature vs. nuture.

[Ryokan]

Knights Templar organization confirmed as real, but they deny knowledge of ABB.

http://www.seattlepi.com/news/article/AP-Exclusive-Knight-Templar-says-no-Norway-link-1612882.php

[Complexity]

delete

[icerat]

Knights Templar organization confirmed as real, but they deny knowledge of ABB.

There's probably lots of make believe little Templar groups been setup by different people all over the western world.

This "richard" clearly seems to be the guy ABB was referring to though. I suspect he's lying and ABB exaggerated though.

[leftysergeant]

Knights Templar organization confirmed as real, but they deny knowledge of ABB.

http://www.seattlepi.com/news/article/AP-Exclusive-Knight-Templar-says-no-Norway-link-1612882.phpThey are organized to operate in small cells, much like The Communist Party did in the USA when they were illegal, and as the outlaw militias and some of the active white nationalist terrorist groups do now.

Of course they are going to deny that he is one of theirs, just like the outlaw militias and Christian Identity disavowed McVeigh.

(Like we believe them.:rolleyes:)

[roger]

And there's never been terrorism in Japan.

Oh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarin_gas_attack_on_the_Tokyo_subway) wait... (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matsumoto_incident)
Are you seriously arguing there is more violence in Japan than the West Bank? Or is that some stupid "gotcha"? Because I certainly never claimed there was zero violence or terrorist events in Japan.

My point is that for the most part everyone in Japan has the same goals, whereas in the West Bank there is, let's face it, a bit of a dialogue going on between a few different parties.

I linked to stories saying that gangs from immigrants were increasing the violence in Norway, admitting that I didn't know if they were true or not.

Where do you think violence comes from? In these parts it comes from drug trafficking, gangs, disadvantaged people, different races and/or religions clashing, high poverty, low education, etc. You know, heterogeneous populations with a sense of 'others' or 'outsiders', and no social safety net to redirect teens with no direction.

So, what Norway has right now is a bunch of Norwegians all with a pretty common set of social goals and mores. There's not a lot of conflict there. As more people move in that don't share the goals and mores, that opens up the door to conflict. Conflict breeds violence.

Somebody brought up Burma as a rebuttal. Not sure why - the conflicts are between various ethnic groups - very different goals, viewing of the varous groups as 'others' rather than 'us', etc. I'm not sure why it is contentious to suggest that conflict and differences are more likely to breed violence than uniformity, but I'm sure somebody will pipe up and tell me.

The World Desk Reference notes that violence, crime, and murders have been rising in Norway, right along with rising immigration. It has become pretty hard to google Norway violence, as the Oslo bombing is getting all the google links, but here is an interesting summery of a report on violence related to immigration in Norway: http://www.utrop.no/4669

Unsurprisingly, they point out that the violence comes from people with no opportunites, and immigrant children end up on the street unsupervised. Gangs and violence ensues. The article points out the great social structures the Norway created for their own youths in the 50s and 60s. This is what makes it so interesting - will Norway continue on this path, and create social structures for immigration, painting a new way forward for other countries to follow, or will they continue to have problems if either they don't erect these safety nets, or immigration overwhelms the system? I dunno, which is why I said it will be so interesting to watch. I certainly hope they continue in their peaceful ways, and teach the rest of the world how to do it.

[timhau]

Are you seriously arguing there is more violence in Japan than the West Bank?

No, but there's been more terrorism in Japan than in Norway.

[whatthebutlersaw]

Are you seriously arguing there is more violence in Japan than the West Bank? Or is that some stupid "gotcha"? Because I certainly never claimed there was zero violence or terrorist events in Japan.

My point is that for the most part everyone in Japan has the same goals, whereas in the West Bank there is, let's face it, a bit of a dialogue going on between a few different parties.

I linked to stories saying that gangs from immigrants were increasing the violence in Norway, admitting that I didn't know if they were true or not.

Where do you think violence comes from? In these parts it comes from drug trafficking, gangs, disadvantaged people, different races and/or religions clashing, high poverty, low education, etc. You know, heterogeneous populations with a sense of 'others' or 'outsiders', and no social safety net to redirect teens with no direction.

So, what Norway has right now is a bunch of Norwegians all with a pretty common set of social goals and mores. There's not a lot of conflict there. As more people move in that don't share the goals and mores, that opens up the door to conflict. Conflict breeds violence.

Somebody brought up Burma as a rebuttal. Not sure why - the conflicts are between various ethnic groups - very different goals, viewing of the varous groups as 'others' rather than 'us', etc. I'm not sure why it is contentious to suggest that conflict and differences are more likely to breed violence than uniformity, but I'm sure somebody will pipe up and tell me.

The World Desk Reference notes that violence, crime, and murders have been rising in Norway, right along with rising immigration. It has become pretty hard to google Norway violence, as the Oslo bombing is getting all the google links, but here is an interesting summery of a report on violence related to immigration in Norway: http://www.utrop.no/4669

Unsurprisingly, they point out that the violence comes from people with no opportunites, and immigrant children end up on the street unsupervised. Gangs and violence ensues. The article points out the great social structures the Norway created for their own youths in the 50s and 60s. This is what makes it so interesting - will Norway continue on this path, and create social structures for immigration, painting a new way forward for other countries to follow, or will they continue to have problems if either they don't erect these safety nets, or immigration overwhelms the system? I dunno, which is why I said it will be so interesting to watch. I certainly hope they continue in their peaceful ways, and teach the rest of the world how to do it.

Diverse societies, it seems, only descend into crime and violence under the same circumstances as homogenous societies: when socio-economic gaps become too large and large parts of the population is impoverished with no hope of improving their lot with legal means.

London in the 18th and 19th century was certainly pretty homogenous, but crime was rife. Because a huge underclass had a choice between crime or death by starvation. The only provisions available were considered a worse fate than death and there was small hope of improving your lot.

It is when societies discriminate against certain groups, making it harder for them to thrive within society that you get what is a correlation - not a causation - of violence and crime rates. It very likely isn't the multidiversity that is the issue, but probably any inherent discrimination that wasn't visible until there was someone to discriminate against.

[timhau]

London in the 18th and 19th century was certainly pretty homogenous,

Actually... was it? Sure, everyone was white, but I doubt a born-and-bread Londoner saw him/herself in any way as representing the same group as someone who just stepped off the boat from Ireland.

[whatthebutlersaw]

Actually... was it? Sure, everyone was white, but I doubt a born-and-bread Londoner saw him/herself in any way as representing the same group as someone who just stepped off the boat from Ireland.

People finding a way to excuse discrimination and then blaming its victims for the fallout is kind of the same story even in a society where people are of the same creed, looking the same, kind of hammers home how artificial and arbitrary those descriptions of multiculturalism and diversity are . Since the context is blaming multiculturalism for the perceived problems of a diverse society, then finding sub groups of "white Christians" to blame for their internal problems is kind of telling how useless it is to go that route.

London hit the million mark in 1821. Before industrialism took hold the major influx of people were other English from the countryside, some Irish - who were subjects at the time - and there would likely have been an integral Jewish minority. Between 1821 and 1939 (peak population) it almost octupled which probably meant more diversity. And although crime was a huge problem in Victorian London, it was in Georgian London too.

There is no reason to link crime and violence levels in London to cultural diversity, rather than to rampant poverty.

Especially not since we have already demonstrated that the boundaries of the idea of diversity fluctuate.

I grew up in a village of some 1.500 people. At the time, every single household was white protestant. (I'm not sure this has changed. The village may very likely just die out at some point.) Yet people found ways of cliqueing themselves and looking down on each other. If aliens descended, South Park style, well...

Point being that if you refuse to put up the Irish in 1836 or you refuse to hire anyone with a huge beard in 2005 - then you, rather than the lilt or the beard, are more likely to contribute to the problem.

[Gaspode]

Discussion on the Norwegian justice system split to new thread (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=215375).

[Ryokan]

All the dead have now been identified, but still not available to the media. Identification takes a bit longer in Norway, as the police don't rely only on identification by relatives.

ETA: We know some names. The youngest dead is a 14 year old girl from New Zealand.

[Ryokan]

Police reports that there have been a lot of bomb threats the last few days, but say there's nothing to worry about.

[Rolfe]

All the dead have now been identified, but still not available to the media. Identification takes a bit longer in Norway, as the police don't rely only on identification by relatives.

ETA: We know some names. The youngest dead is a 14 year old girl from New Zealand.


There was a 14-year-old boy from Svalbard listed, too.

I wonder what it's like, living in Svalbard....

Rolfe.

[Ryokan]

I wonder what it's like, living in Svalbard....

Cold.

[Travis]

Police reports that there have been a lot of bomb threats the last few days, but say there's nothing to worry about.

I really, really hope nobody actually tries to copycat the *******.

[Ryokan]

Red Cross reports that donations for aid to Africa has increased drastically since the terrorist attack.. From Friday 15th until the attack, they had received 100 000 NOK. Since the Friday of the attack and until today they've received three million.. The first million came on Friday, and the second on Saturday..

Strange way to react to a terrorist attack, but I approve.. :)

http://www.nrk.no/vitenskap-og-teknologi/1.7730119

Norwegian Red Cross president opines that "the time after the tragedies have created lasting values that will make Norwegians stronger, and proud that we didn't react with revenge and isolation, but rather with humanity, warmth and international solidarity."

[AdMan]

Norwegian Red Cross president opines that "the time after the tragedies have created lasting values that will make Norwegian stronger, and proud that we didn't react with revenge and isolation, but rather with humanity, warmth and international solidarity."


:)

[Ryokan]

The police will question Breivik for the second time since he was taken into custody later today.

The police also says he has made many demands, some who were accepted and others that were not.

He has refused to be photographed. This has been reluctantly accepted. I'm guessing he don't want any other images of himself out there exceptfor his staged ones. Again this points to narcissistic tendencies.

He requested that the arraignment be done in English. This was denied.

He has requested that he be allowed to wear his uniform. This was denied.

Since he was not allowed to wear his uniform, he requested that he be allowed to dress in red. This has been accepted, and the photographs the media took of him on his way to his arraignment showed him to be dressed in red.

He has requested access to Wikileaks. This was denied, but he was given access to pen and paper.

I can't even begin to speculate why he wanted access to Wikileaks...

[Rolfe]

I heard something on the radio about some English nutter who was saying he thought Breivik might have been "inspired" by his own writings, on the internet. Of course it was all too too horrible and he condemned it utterly, but it did bear a resemblance to things he had written.

It's possible there are a lot of people on the fringes of this who are "all mouth and trousers" as they say - it's just talk, and living in a fantasy world, and they more or less know it's all fantasy and they'll never act on it. One stage up from a virtual reality game. But then someone even more unhinged than the rest actually does it.

There is a case on the go in Wales where it is alleged that a boy killed his girlfriend because it was something that had been discussed almost as a joke, and then he said, what will you give me if I do it, and the friend said, I'll buy you breakfast. How seriously would anyone take that? But the girl is dead.

Rolfe.

[Ryokan]

I heard something on the radio about some English nutter who was saying he thought Breivik might have been "inspired" by his own writings, on the internet. Of course it was all too too horrible and he condemned it utterly, but it did bear a resemblance to things he had written.



It's mentioned earlier in the thread, a guy calling himself Lionheart, and has a blog calling for the resurrection of the Knights Templars.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/norway/8661131/Norway-shooting-British-police-investigating-Knights-Templar-right-wing-radicals.html

[Ryokan]

It's mentioned earlier in the thread, a guy calling himself Lionheart, and has a blog calling for the resurrection of the Knights Templars.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/norway/8661131/Norway-shooting-British-police-investigating-Knights-Templar-right-wing-radicals.html

He denied it at first, but now he admits to having had contact with Breivik... It's not looking good for this 'crusader'...

Speaking from Malta, where he has fled fearing arrest for inciting racial hatred, Mr Ray conceded that he had been in direct contact with the 32-year-old gunman online.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/norway/8669670/Oslo-attacks-EDL-member-Paul-Ray-admits-he-may-have-been-Anders-Breiviks-inspiration.html

[Ryokan]

Skeptic, you're really off topic here. If you want to use this incident to further your political agenda, might I suggest you do that elsewhere?

Anyway, a Belorussian opposition politician claims Breivik received military training in Belarus..

“Breivik visited Belarus several times. This spring, as part of his preparations for his twin attacks, he visited Minsk, where he underwent training at a secret paramilitary field camp,” Mikhail Reshetnikov, the head of the opposition Belarusian Party of Patriots, told the Gazeta.ru online newspaper.

He cited sources within Belarus’s “security organs.”

http://en.rian.ru/world/20110728/165436665.html

[Childlike Empress]

Anyway, a Belorussian opposition politician claims Breivik received military training in Belarus..

http://en.rian.ru/world/20110728/165436665.html


Sounds not credible and like someone using the opportunity to demonize his political opponent. I see it's a Reuters report carried by RIA Novosti. The german edition of RIA Novosti, which is more extensive than the English one, doesn't report this.

[Ryokan]

Sounds not credible and like someone using the opportunity to demonize his political opponent. I see it's a Reuters report carried by RIA Novosti. The german edition of RIA Novosti, which is more extensive than the English one, doesn't report this.

I tend to agree with you, as does the Norwegian police. Breivik does mention trips to Belarus in his manifesto, though.

[Nursefoxfire]

Morrissey weighs in, with his usual panache (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2019849/Morrissey-Norway-Breivik-massacre-compared-McDonalds-KFC.html):

'We all live in a murderous world, as the events in Norway have shown with 97 dead,' he said (when the death toll was thought to be higher).

'Though that is nothing compared to what happens in McDonald's and Kentucky Fried S*** every day.'



(I didn't see this brought up up-thread, please excuse me if it was already mentioned)

[tyr_13]

Morrissey weighs in, with his usual panache (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2019849/Morrissey-Norway-Breivik-massacre-compared-McDonalds-KFC.html):



(I didn't see this brought up up-thread, please excuse me if it was already mentioned)

Well that hurts his cause. His reaction is so out of touch it's almost like a joke.

His reaction is terribly myopic. The reaction of the public in Norway is downright awesome.

[deadrose]

Morrissey has always made me want to eat bloody dripping meat right up in his face. The man is an insufferable prig.

[Bill Thompson]

So what is the deal? This guy did these things to protest the muslims coming into the country?

[Ryokan]

His lawyer says that last Friday's attack was actually Breivik's B-plan, and in questioning Breivik has explained to the police that he also wanted to bomb the king's palace and Labour's headquarters (which is actually a stone's throw from the bomb he did detonate), but that he simply ran out of time.

[Ryokan]

I just found out that the husband of the sister of two of my childhood friends died in the bomb.. I was in love with her when I was young. So sad...

[Ryokan]

Breivik has demanded that the king and the PM and his cabinet step down, and he be put in charge of the military.....

[Eddie Dane]

Breivik has demanded that the king and the PM and his cabinet step down, and he be put in charge of the military.....

In the debate about wether we should call him a political terrorist or a nut, I am starting to lean towards nut.

[Hawk one]

In the debate about wether we should call him a political terrorist or a nut, I am starting to lean towards nut.

Do these things necessarily have to be mutually exclusive?

[Rolfe]

I just found out that the husband of the sister of two of my childhood friends died in the bomb.. I was in love with her when I was young. So sad...


Ryokan, I'm so sorry.

Rolfe.

[Kestrel]

I just found out that the husband of the sister of two of my childhood friends died in the bomb.. I was in love with her when I was young. So sad...

:(

That is sad.

Considering the number of dead and the size of Norway, I suspect most Norwegians are finding they have some connection to at least one of the victims.

[Roadtoad]

I just got in this afternoon, so I'm catching up on all of this. Part of my problem is getting through the irrelevant attacks on the usual boogeymen.

Still, a lot is coming clear. Anders Breivik is as representative of Christianity as Osama Bin Laden. I don't buy the notion that he's crazy. Personally, I think the stupid SOB is simply evil. This is a gutless, hateful, cowardly individual, with nothing better to do with his time than seek new ways to make his fellow human beings suffer. Tragically, he's succeeded, (as Ryokan has now revealed. Dude, I'm so very, very sorry.)

There's no real way to prepare for such a neanderthal. They exist in every society simply because we are human beings, and there are enough in this world that you're going to encounter them. Most encounters will be quick, painless, and eventually forgettable. (As long as you don't read Rense or other CT cowards.) This one will never be forgotten, simply because it was so damnably horrific.

I'm hoping Norway doesn't succumb to the idea of turning into some sort of surveillance society. It won't stop this, and in some ways, it might make it worse, (though I'm not sure how.) The one time I was there in the middle
'70s, I enjoyed it. (Sorry, it was a tourist package. I missed out on seeing the slums.) I'm hoping that when I get the chance to return, it won't have given Breivik the terror he wanted.

I suspect the psychiatrists are smart enough to be aware of those ploys, to be honest.

Rolfe.

Sure, as long as he isn't sent to St. Elizabeth's Hospital, where he can be a cell mate with John Hinckley, Jr. They keep trying to release his sorry carcass, and damned if they haven't come close to succeeding.

Breivik has demanded that the king and the PM and his cabinet step down, and he be put in charge of the military.....

Oh, yeah. That'll happen. :rolleyes:

[Darth Rotor]

Breivik has demanded that the king and the PM and his cabinet step down, and he be put in charge of the military.....
Oh, yeah. That'll happen. :rolleyes:

It never hurts to ask I suppose. :p

Ryokan, my heart goes out to you. Ouch. :(

[deadrose]

Breivik has demanded that the king and the PM and his cabinet step down, and he be put in charge of the military.....

So he's definitely trying for the insanity defense then. :rolleyes:

I'm very sorry to hear about your friend's husband.

[Roadtoad]

Frankly, I don't give a rat's damn why the whiny little SOB did this. This is one of the reasons we still have the death penalty in the US, for obscene little vermin like this.

[Safe-Keeper]

The Norway Cup, the world's largest football tournament for children, is going on at this very moment, albeit with a visible police presence. The tournament is meant to be a peaceful gathering of the world's children, and the fact that it wasn't cancelled, only a weekend after the attacks, is a good sign of how well people are coping.

[Roadtoad]

The Norway Cup, the world's largest football tournament for children, is going on at this very moment, albeit with a visible police presence. The tournament is meant to be a peaceful gathering of the world's children, and the fact that it wasn't cancelled, only a weekend after the attacks, is a good sign of how well people are coping.

Almost wish I were there. Anything that shows the little cretin just how badly he's failed.

You guys rock.

[tyr_13]

I seriously would like to move to Norway.

[Rolfe]

I've said it before, one of the reasons I support independence for Scotland is that with a bit of luck and a bit of cleverness and a lot of determination, we could change our society to be a lot more like Norway.

Rolfe. Who thinks that 5 hours daylight in winter is quite low enough thank you.

[whatthebutlersaw]

I'm so sorry to hear that, Ryokan. I guess it's almost inevitable that most people will know someone affected. :(

RT: I see no reason to smear the poor Neanderthals with a comparison. ;) We don't have enough information about them to conclude that their society would have condoned behaviour like Breiviks. There is strong evidence they cared for their sick and wounded and that they supported members of the group who couldn't support themselves, so it's very likely they had developed empathy.

I, myself, lean towards pants-on-head-insane for this one and while I feel it is useless to try to deny his influences and inspirations as among the most dangerous to subject a deranged mind to and while he does indeed self identify as a member of a group I despise I really don't see this as a triumph for my own dislikes. It is and remains a human tragedy.

Using him to have a swipe at gamers, basement dwellers, right wingers, virgins, Christians or - as the pants-on-head case may be - to have a go at his targets for inciting him by existing (Cheers, Fox. Stay classy.) ... it just doesn't fly.

Yes, I know that if he had been a left wing nut with some polar opposite agenda the Christian right would have been all over that ****, but that's the point isn't it? To not be like them? Who _wants_ to be like Rupert ****** Murdoch?

It seems we are getting a lesson in handling a situation like this right now.

[Travis]

Even if Norway wanted to go bonkers and overreact......what exactly could they do? It's not like this guy was part of some minority group. Would they start lynching people with traditional sweaters?

[Roadtoad]

I've said it before, one of the reasons I support independence for Scotland is that with a bit of luck and a bit of cleverness and a lot of determination, we could change our society to be a lot more like Norway.

Rolfe. Who thinks that 5 hours daylight in winter is quite low enough thank you.

An independent Scotland? Next thing you know, Ireland will want out, too.

[Ryokan]

I appreciate all the condolences, but really I had never met the guy. I just knew his wife, who is a wonderful person. I talked to her brothers the other day and offered them my condolences.

The terror attack still dominates Norwegian news, but there there hasn't been any real news in a few days. I'll post if there's any interesting developments, if people are still interested.

[Ryokan]

Breivik has demanded to be evaluated by psychiatrists from Japan instead of Norwegian, because he feels a Japanese would understand the concept of honour better than a Norwegian.

[DC]

Breivik has demanded to be evaluated by psychiatrists from Japan instead of Norwegian, because he feels a Japanese would understand the concept of honour better than a Norwegian.

Honor :eek: Breivik's understanding of Honor would be better understood by a Sith psychiatrists.

[Safe-Keeper]

Who does he imaigne inhabits Japan, Klingons?

[whatthebutlersaw]

Ryokan: you are seeing people you care about in distress which is hard in and of itself and you have to make sense of something horrible happening "at your door step". You may not have known this man but that doesn't mean you are completely unaffected.

See the condoleances as if for the entire situation. No one expected something like this to go down in Norway of all places. Almost all the Norwegian friends I have talked to (all fine and accounted for, phew) have said that it felt like Norway lost its innocense and that is a loss for everyone whether you are directly affected or not. There's worry if this will affect how you do things and if things will change now. (Fortunately, you seem to ride this like bosses.) Sweden before and after the Olof Palme assassination were very different places and frankly, everything has since gone to ***** with regards to things like solidarity, mutual trust between people and government, sense of security, empathy, sense of society and belonging - all those vague terms that are actually the basis for a succesful mixed economy society.

You go to bed and you wake up in a colder and harder world where everything is weird, skewed and threatening. Even though we can see that this is clearly being handled very well and of course there is the closure of the perpetrator already being apprehended and going through the legal system - at least the people I have talked to still have that gnawing fear that somehow hate will have found an opening, through this, after all. You guys are doing such a wonderful job of ensuring it doesn't get a chance to break through, but don't think we don't understand that it's costing you.

I can see you yourself, for example, fielding other - kinda personally unaffected - people's hatred in this very thread without losing your patience. That shouldn't really be your job right now but I'm grateful you're doing it, because no one else can speak for you. You guys are the ones affected, so your reaction is the one that counts.

All of that is hard to put into suitable condoleances - it's kind of like when Arthur Dent realizes earth is gone. Not until he breaks it down to his local corner shop is he able to react.

[Jono]

Breivik has demanded to be evaluated by psychiatrists from Japan instead of Norwegian, because he feels a Japanese would understand the concept of honour better than a Norwegian.

Well for him to request something like a normal person would be out of character. :rolleyes:

[Ryokan]

Westboro Baptist Church has said they're coming to Norway to picket the funerals...

They'd better get here fast then, the funerals are happening as we speak. A 17 year old Turkish born girl was buried yesterday, and the funeral was attended by the Turkish vice prime minister and foreign minister. Much respect to those guys coming all that way.

[The Mutha]

The WBC is supposedly coming to Houston this coming weekend, but who knows. They do have a tendency to claim they're going to protest stuff that they don't ever show up for... But I'd rather have them come here for whatever the heck they'd be showing up for then go to Norway and darken that doorstep with their presence. The US doesn't need that representing us here in the US, much less internationally.

[Dayan81]

Westboro Baptist Church has said they're coming to Norway to picket the funerals...

They'd better get here fast then, the funerals are happening as we speak. A 17 year old Turkish born girl was buried yesterday, and the funeral was attended by the Turkish vice prime minister and foreign minister. Much respect to those guys coming all that way.

The images of Kurdish Muslims & Christian Norwegians praying & walking together to honor a Kurdish immigrant killed in the attacks was very touching.

It will be wonderful to see this event make the ties between Christians & Muslims in Norway stronger.

[AdMan]

The WBC is supposedly coming to Houston this coming weekend, but who knows. They do have a tendency to claim they're going to protest stuff that they don't ever show up for... But I'd rather have them come here for whatever the heck they'd be showing up for then go to Norway and darken that doorstep with their presence. The US doesn't need that representing us here in the US, much less internationally.


I wouldn't worry too much. I'll bet most of them don't even have passports.

[Ivor the Engineer]

Westboro Baptist Church has said they're coming to Norway to picket the funerals...

<snip>

What reason did they give for wanting to picket the funerals?

[Ryokan]

What reason did they give for wanting to picket the funerals?

That Norway legalized homosexuality in the 70s, and recently legalized same sex marriage - both of which was the cause of the attack, of course. It's all God's will. Or something.

[Dayan81]

I really, really hope that you are wrong, and that most Israelis are not so selfish and blinded by nationalism to make this Norwegian tragedy about themselves.

Has anyone brought any flowers or candles to their local Norwegian consulate? I wanted to do it but continue to forget. Perhaps tomorrow will be the day.

But again, please keep this discussion about Norway and don't let this horrible event be used by others to push their agendas.

[DC]

Has anyone brought any flowers or candles to their local Norwegian consulate? I wanted to do it but continue to forget. Perhaps tomorrow will be the day.

But again, please keep this discussion about Norway and don't let this horrible event be used by other to push their agendas.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/utenriksdept/sets/72157627139831713/

[ThatSoundAgain]

To be fair, the Labour Youth probably supports a boycott of Israel. As I've mentioned before, the youth parties are actually independent organizations, although they of course have very close ties to their 'mother' parties. Some youth parties have very similar politics to their 'mother' parties, others do not. The Labour Youth fits the latter, and has always been a lot more radical than Labour.

Indeed, if these political youth organizations are as similar to the Danish ones as they sound, they are pretty independent from the main "grown up" ones. They essentially serve as a political training ground for young people, and that tends to work best with minimal involvement from the mother party. They're trying to learn how to organise a party from the ground up, so top-down management would be counterproductive. A few of the youths will likely find they have the talent and inclination to pursue a political career.

All round this is a healthy thing, also for the many that grow up to not be career politicians. But it does mean that the youth parties are generally more radical than their older counterparts, because they are young and do not have the burden of actually having to govern (which quickly injects a dose of pragmatism).

So, as a result, most youth parties have stated policies that are a bit extreme, out there, or naïve. That's just the nature of the thing. You could view the Norwegian Labour Youth's stance on Israel any of these things, but to say that they're "pro-terrorism" or to call what they're doing "being indoctrinated" does not reflect well on your motives - especially given the context of the events we're discussing here.

[Ryokan]

They're also seen as an inner opposition in the parties, which is also a healthy thing - challenging the main party's politics.

[Complexity]

delete


(yet another time that I've gotten angry, decided not to do so (for long) in this thread, and decided to delete it)

[Dayan81]

I think Norway is acting in a way that the USA should have acted, after 9-11.

The USA chose the route of fear & revenge while Norway chose the route of strength & defiance.

:(

[Complexity]

I think Norway is acting in a way that the USA should have acted, after 9-11.

The USA chose the route of fear & revenge while Norway chose the route of strength & defiance.


:(



In the US after 9/11, I think that many people took advantage of the terrorist acts to further their own agendas.

I think the Norwegian government and people are doing just fine - they have been behaving admirably as far as I can tell.

[Cuddles]

Israel derail split to here (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=215859).

[a_unique_person]

Westboro Baptist Church has said they're coming to Norway to picket the funerals...

They'd better get here fast then, the funerals are happening as we speak. A 17 year old Turkish born girl was buried yesterday, and the funeral was attended by the Turkish vice prime minister and foreign minister. Much respect to those guys coming all that way.

I can't believe they have two cents to rub together, let alone buy the air fare.

[Darat]

I can't believe they have two cents to rub together, let alone buy the air fare.

Just their usual media-attention tactics.

[Ryokan]

Breivik has been banned from posting on internet forums for the entire duration of his prison sentence. Most likely he will also be banned from using e-mail, or even using the internet at all.

[AdMan]

Most likely he will also be banned from using e-mail, or even using the internet at all.


I would certainly hope so! Otherwise he will certainly continue trying to spread his hate-filled ideas.

[Ryokan]

The police also say that now have the identity of Breivik's biggest idol, the anonymous blogger Fjordman, and will question him.

[Complexity]

What reason did they give for wanting to picket the funerals?


Don't care what they say.

They want to do it for the publicity and sheer nastiness.

[Pardalis]

Breivik has been banned from posting on internet forums for the entire duration of his prison sentence. Most likely he will also be banned from using e-mail, or even using the internet at all.

Isn't he supposed to be in prison anyway?

Oh right, inmates have internet privileges now... :rolleyes:

Prison looks less and less like prison these days.

[Dayan81]

..Prison looks less and less like prison these days.

You have no idea how right you are.

[Safe-Keeper]

The punishment is having your freedom taken away. Losing the ability to waste your days in front of a computer screen doesn't factor into this.
Edit: Breivik is obviously a bit of a... shall I say, special case.

[ThatSoundAgain]

Oh right, inmates have internet privileges now... :rolleyes:

Some inmates even read newspapers and make phone calls! :eek:

[Hawk one]

One of the victims were buried in my town today. The local rock forum that she was a part of, made this for her (http://gfx.nrk.no/AkajiMIPioHrQUlgscbtUAXMU_JsJKHrDqh_weLwTxbg.jpg).

[deadrose]

One of the victims were buried in my town today. The local rock forum that she was a part of, made this for her (http://gfx.nrk.no/AkajiMIPioHrQUlgscbtUAXMU_JsJKHrDqh_weLwTxbg.jpg).

My high school class voted to use that as our processional back in 1977. The school administrators overruled us, after having told us we could choose.

It's a beautiful memorial.

[Ryokan]

Breivik's greatest idol, the anonymous blogger Fjordman, now reveals his identity to the media.

He's from my hometown, and just a year older than me.....

http://www.vg.no/nyheter/innenriks/oslobomben/artikkel.php?artid=10089390

I don't recognize his face or name, though. I don't quite understand his motive for coming out, either. Surely he won't be a popular man in Norway these days.

ETA: There are interviews with his parents on the local internet newspaper. I know them. They didn't know about their son's blogging.

[Rasmus]

Some inmates even read newspapers and make phone calls! :eek:

What's worse is I hear they're being fed, clothed and sheltered, too. Bygone the good old days where you could just ship them to some distant island ...

[Darat]

Breivik's greatest idol, the anonymous blogger Fjordman, now reveals his identity to the media.

He's from my hometown, and just a year older than me.....

http://www.vg.no/nyheter/innenriks/oslobomben/artikkel.php?artid=10089390

I don't recognize his face or name, though. I don't quite understand his motive for coming out, either. Surely he won't be a popular man in Norway these days.

ETA: There are interviews with his parents on the local internet newspaper. I know them. They didn't know about their son's blogging.


Is that the entirety of the interview or is there a link to a longer interview I am missing?

[icerat]

He said he thinks his name would have come out eventually anyway. Better to be in control of it that not, so I agree with him there.

His claims to be "shocked" that his writings actually have influence is a little specious. Isn't that part of the reason why people do political blogs and forums posts in the first place? To influence others towards their perspectives?

[Darat]

I am always perplexed how people who try to alter people's minds or even the world with their words seem astonished that their words can change things. Words are not some passive thing, they are every much an action as is hitting a nail with hammer.

[Ryokan]

Is that the entirety of the interview or is there a link to a longer interview I am missing?

The longer part is in today's newspaper.. The one made of paper.. :/ Not really much more information there, though. It's not really an interview, just him poking his face out and revealing his identity.

[Rasmus]

I am always perplexed how people who try to alter people's minds or even the world with their words seem astonished that their words can change things. Words are not some passive thing, they are every much an action as is hitting a nail with hammer.

I haven't read the blog, or the manifesto that quotes it - but judging form the short interview alone, I think it fair to say that one could possibly be surprised here:

A person might very well be promoting political ideas and call for action without ever in any way condoning or hoping for or encouraging terrorism and violence. Such a person could then be reasonably surprised if their words were then used to justify such actions.

That being said: Yes, one should be aware that words have power and may influence people.

[Safe-Keeper]

I am always perplexed how people who try to alter people's minds or even the world with their words seem astonished that their words can change things. Words are not some passive thing, they are every much an action as is hitting a nail with hammer. It's like the CT-ers sitting in their parents' basements spreading propaganda about how evil the US government is and how it must be overthrown... for then to be astonished whenever comes along who is crazy enough to actually do something.

[Darat]

I haven't read the blog, or the manifesto that quotes it - but judging form the short interview alone, I think it fair to say that one could possibly be surprised here:

A person might very well be promoting political ideas and call for action without ever in any way condoning or hoping for or encouraging terrorism and violence. Such a person could then be reasonably surprised if their words were then used to justify such actions.

That being said: Yes, one should be aware that words have power and may influence people.

Oh yeah of course - people always manage to twist whatever they want to suit their extremism regardless of the intent of the author. In fact that's probably the norm!

[Ryokan]

I haven't read the blog, or the manifesto that quotes it - but judging form the short interview alone, I think it fair to say that one could possibly be surprised here:

A person might very well be promoting political ideas and call for action without ever in any way condoning or hoping for or encouraging terrorism and violence. Such a person could then be reasonably surprised if their words were then used to justify such actions.

That being said: Yes, one should be aware that words have power and may influence people.

Having read the manifesto, and now some essays by Fjordman, I'm not really surprised. Fjordman writes about a takeover of Europe by Muslims, and that the European governments are complicit in this. Several times he encourages 'patriotic' Europeans to arm themselves and prepare for the coming war.

I'm not saying Fjordman is in any way guilty when it comes to the Norwegian terrorist attacks, but he is guilty of fomenting dangerous anti-Islamic feelings.

[Dave Rogers]

On a slightly different topic, I think The People of Norway should be nominated for The Nobel Peace Prize.

Their response to this tragedy has been nothing short of inspirational and an incredible role model for the rest of the world. I firmly believe their reaction has directly affected the odds of future attacks of this nature.

Since the UK government has just launched an e-petitions site, it seems to me that this might be a worthwhile subject to raise. Would any of the other British participants in this thread support an e-petition to "Nominate the people of Norway for the Nobel Peace Prize"?

Dave

[Darat]

Since the UK government has just launched an e-petitions site, it seems to me that this might be a worthwhile subject to raise. Would any of the other British participants in this thread support an e-petition to "Nominate the people of Norway for the Nobel Peace Prize"?

Dave

I would.

[Rasmus]

Having read the manifesto, and now some essays by Fjordman, I'm not really surprised. Fjordman writes about a takeover of Europe by Muslims, and that the European governments are complicit in this. Several times he encourages 'patriotic' Europeans to arm themselves and prepare for the coming war.

Too bad that the interview doesn't ask him about his views now ...

I'm not saying Fjordman is in any way guilty when it comes to the Norwegian terrorist attacks, but he is guilty of fomenting dangerous anti-Islamic feelings.

It seems like in this case there's little reason for him to be overly surprised, then.

[Agatha]

Since the UK government has just launched an e-petitions site, it seems to me that this might be a worthwhile subject to raise. Would any of the other British participants in this thread support an e-petition to "Nominate the people of Norway for the Nobel Peace Prize"?

Dave I would.

[Safe-Keeper]

There's a small social movement in Norway working to "forget" Anders Breivik, perhaps inspired by the wizards' shunning of the name "Voldemort" in the Harry Potter books. They state that since Breivik's highest wish was to be remembered as a hero, a fitting punishment would be for him to simply be forgotten. The supporters do not mention his name, do not support printing his photo in newspapers, and do their utmost not to talk about him, except as "he whom we do not talk about".

Not sure what I think of it, smacks a bit of censorship/history revisionism to me, but it's a very interesting reaction. It reminds me of how tramatized survivors of abuse try to avoid hearing or talking about their attackers.

[quadraginta]

There's a small social movement in Norway working to "forget" Anders Breivik, perhaps inspired by the wizards' shunning of the name "Voldemort" in the Harry Potter books. They state that since Breivik's highest wish was to be remembered as a hero, a fitting punishment would be for him to simply be forgotten. The supporters do not mention his name, do not support printing his photo in newspapers, and do their utmost not to talk about him, except as "he whom we do not talk about".

Not sure what I think of it, smacks a bit of censorship/history revisionism to me, but it's a very interesting reaction. It reminds me of how tramatized survivors of abuse try to avoid hearing or talking about their attackers.


My first instinct is to view forgetting as a bad idea. "Those who don't learn from history ..." Usually the next step in that cultural procedure is "Well! Our people were never like that."

Then the social memory collectively resents suggestions that the truth of history might be different than the perception of it. Anger ensues if such suggestions are pursued. And denial. For example, it is not generally well received to point out that McVeigh was a fundy religious terrorist just like the people who took down the WTC by any realistic metric, at least not among most nominal Christers.

I think it is far better for things like this to stay framed in memory, but to work to insure that it is framed properly, with the opprobrium it deserves. It should be highlighted, not hidden. And then deplored.

[Blue Mountain]

Frankly, I don't give a rat's damn why the whiny little SOB did this. This is one of the reasons we still have the death penalty in the US, for obscene little vermin like this.
I disagree. Giving the death penalty to Brevik (impossible in this case, because Norway doesn't have it) would in no way prevent something like this from happening again.

Suppose he was executed for this. So what? After he's dead he's not going to care about anything. Far better to keep him alive for the rest of his natural life for him to see that he failed completely. It's also possible (although in my mind unlikely) that he will figure out why he failed, then change his mind and deplore what he did along with the rest of the country.

Here's what I'd like to do with him, although it may fall into the category of cruel and unusual: plaster every surface of his cell with a photograph. No matter where he looks, the face of one of his victims looks back at him. With every picture include a biography and give him nothing else to read for the first two years of his imprisonment. Maybe he'll get the idea that he killed people and not some faceless enemy.

[Multivac]

Since the UK government has just launched an e-petitions site, it seems to me that this might be a worthwhile subject to raise. Would any of the other British participants in this thread support an e-petition to "Nominate the people of Norway for the Nobel Peace Prize"?

Dave

Yes

[Matthew Best]

Since the UK government has just launched an e-petitions site, it seems to me that this might be a worthwhile subject to raise. Would any of the other British participants in this thread support an e-petition to "Nominate the people of Norway for the Nobel Peace Prize"?

Dave

Definitely.

[Safe-Keeper]

I'm starting to understand the anger many people feel towards CT-ers. I've learned that a circus classmate of mine, and my uncle, have lost a loved one each in the attack. They're both in different cities, and it's not too much fun to sit here and be able to do nothing for them.

In the midst of this, today I was watching YT videos about the attack, and I see a comment about how it was a plot by "Western Zionists"... gawd... for all the emphasis we have on forgiveness and love, I know that if he said it to my face I would have punched him. Or her. Taking such a disaster and twisting it into a CT for you to amuse your buddies with, or worse, a way to push your bigoted political views... it's just disgusting.

Since the UK government has just launched an e-petitions site, it seems to me that this might be a worthwhile subject to raise. Would any of the other British participants in this thread support an e-petition to "Nominate the people of Norway for the Nobel Peace Prize"?

Dave Again, I'm deeply touched by all the sympathy and support demonstrated by my fellow posters in this thread. Thank you <3 .

[Ryokan]

Just an hour after the bomb, nyhetsspeilet.no, Norway's #1 conspiracy theory site, reported that the attack was done by a Manchurian candidate. Scum.

[Roadtoad]

Westboro Baptist Church has said they're coming to Norway to picket the funerals...

They'd better get here fast then, the funerals are happening as we speak. A 17 year old Turkish born girl was buried yesterday, and the funeral was attended by the Turkish vice prime minister and foreign minister. Much respect to those guys coming all that way.

Maybe you could borrow Kaz Demille-Jacobsen's Jesus Rock and pitch it at Fred's head. Two birds, one stone: Kaz does some good in her miserable life, and Fred is knocked out solid.

Or maybe your government will do the decent thing and send his sorry backside back home.

[Roadtoad]

I disagree. Giving the death penalty to Brevik (impossible in this case, because Norway doesn't have it) would in no way prevent something like this from happening again.

Suppose he was executed for this. So what? After he's dead he's not going to care about anything. Far better to keep him alive for the rest of his natural life for him to see that he failed completely. It's also possible (although in my mind unlikely) that he will figure out why he failed, then change his mind and deplore what he did along with the rest of the country.

Here's what I'd like to do with him, although it may fall into the category of cruel and unusual: plaster every surface of his cell with a photograph. No matter where he looks, the face of one of his victims looks back at him. With every picture include a biography and give him nothing else to read for the first two years of his imprisonment. Maybe he'll get the idea that he killed people and not some faceless enemy.

This is a great idea. Too bad it won't happen, but one could hope.

[Rolfe]

Breivik has been diagnosed as having paranoid schizophrenia, though this is apparently subject to review.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-15936276

Rolfe.

[Ryokan]

The report from the two psychiatrists evaluating Anders Behring Breivik was made public today, and their conclusion is that he's a paranoid schizophrenic, psychotic and criminally insane - in effect, he can't be held responsible for his actions.

The BBC writes: (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-15936276):

Psychiatrists assessing self-confessed Norwegian mass killer Anders Behring Breivik have concluded that he is suffering from paranoid schizophrenia.

They believe he was in a psychotic state during the twin attacks on 22 July that led to the deaths of 77 people and injured 151.

He was also insane during the 13 interviews the two psychiatrists held with them, a news conference heard.

Breivik admits carrying out the attacks but has pleaded not guilty to charges.

He has previously said the attacks were atrocious but "necessary".

The two psychiatrists, in their report, concluded that he lived in his "own delusional universe where all his thoughts and acts are guided by his delusions".

The Norwegian newspaper Dagbladet (http://www.dagbladet.no/2011/11/29/nyheter/innenriks/terrorangrep/anders_behring_breivik/19212222/) has a few details about what led them to the conclusion:

- He believes he's been chosen to decide who gets to live and who gets to die, and that he's been chosen to save his people.

- He says he executed the 69 people on Utøya out of love for his people, and that he's the most perfect knight since WW2.

- He believes his organization, the Knights Templar, will take control over Europe and that he will most likely be the future regent of Norway.

The BBC writes:

It is unclear if the conclusions of the report - if approved by the panel - will prevent the trial from going ahead in its current form.

This, however, is contradicted by Norwegian media, who says the trial will be held as scheduled, and that the only difference is that the court won't be able to sentence him to prison. They can only mandate psychiatric care.

The report is not set in stone, as it will be sent to medical authorities to be peer reviewed. However, it's very likely that it will stand.

I think many Norwegians right now have very mixed feelings. This is our greatest national tragedy since the German invasion in 1940, and many want to see him punished to the fullest extent of the law.

However, if the psychiatric report is correct, we have to ask ourselves: Is it right to punish a person for being sick?

[Ryokan]

Ah, I should add that Breivik himself refuses to accept the conclusions of the psychiatrists. According to himself, he's of sound mind and only did what he (felt he) had to do.

ETA:That is, he hasn't been shown the report yet, but he has said the above in advance, in case he was declared criminally insane. He does not want that. He doesn't want to be seen as insane, he wants to be seen as a hero and the Saviour of Europe.

[angrysoba]

I do hope a heavy pillow doesn't fall on top of him while he's asleep in the lunatic asylum.

[Darat]

...snip...

However, if the psychiatric report is correct, we have to ask ourselves: Is it right to punish a person for being sick?

Do you have secure psychiatric hospitals? (An example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broadmoor_Hospital) In the UK such a person would still be tried and if found guilty would end up in one of those institutions.

[stokes234]

However, if the psychiatric report is correct, we have to ask ourselves: Is it right to punish a person for being sick?

I wouldn't say it's right to "punish" him if he's been judged to be several sandwiches short of a picnic, but he does clearly need to be kept away from the rest of society until people who very much know what they are talking about can declare him safe.

[Ryokan]

Do you have secure psychiatric hospitals? (An example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broadmoor_Hospital) In the UK such a person would still be tried and if found guilty would end up in one of those institutions.

Not sure, but I would have to assume so. He's not the first Norwegian murderer to be declared criminally insane.

I wouldn't say it's right to "punish" him if he's been judged to be several sandwiches short of a picnic, but he does clearly need to be kept away from the rest of society until people who very much know what they are talking about can declare him safe.

Yes, there's very little chance that Breivik will walk the streets anytime soon. Quite the contrary, being declared criminally insane means that it will be easier for the authorities to have him locked up indefinitely. But still, some people are up in arms over the fact that he won't be 'punished', but sent to 'psychiatric care'.

[casebro]

In some places, wouldn't he possible be declared 'cured', then off to prison he goes? The kook still did it, just don't 'punish' him while he is insane. Cure him, then gas him.

[Ryokan]

In some places, wouldn't he possible be declared 'cured', then off to prison he goes? The kook still did it, just don't 'punish' him while he is insane. Cure him, then gas him.

But his actions were because of his illness. It's not really right to punish someone for acts that they can't be held responsible for, is it?

In any case, even his defense attorneys says that this will most likely change nothing, and that even though we can't punish someone for being sick, he'll never walk the streets as a free man ever again.

[bluesjnr]

No surprises here. What he did could not be considered the product of a sane mind.

As for punishment, there is no point as he will never learn from it. Lifelong incarceration seems the best answer to me as it keeps the rest of Norway safe from his maniacal urges into the bargain.

[Rolfe]

Why is this politics? I was looking to discuss it in the original thread in Current Events.
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=214863

Rolfe.

[Johny2x4]

No surprises here. What he did could not be considered the product of a sane mind.

As for punishment, there is no point as he will never learn from it. Lifelong incarceration seems the best answer to me as it keeps the rest of Norway safe from his maniacal urges into the bargain.

And the sooner we stop talking about him the better. Let him be forgotten. It´s the biggest blow to his ego.

[Ryokan]

Why is this politics? I was looking to discuss it in the original thread in Current Events.
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=214863

Rolfe.

I guess I focused more on the 'Non-USA and General' part than the 'Politics' part. If it's moved to Current Issues, that's quite all right with me.

I did consider posting it in the thread you linked to, but thought that this perhaps merited it's own thread.

[David Swidler]

There's also the question of sentencing as a deterrent, not merely one of punishment or keeping the public safe from him (and vice versa). He might not "deserve" the sentence, but that's not the only consideration.

[Eddie Dane]

Breivik has been diagnosed as having paranoid schizophrenia, though this is apparently subject to review.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-15936276

Rolfe.

Doesn't surprise me that he turned out to be clinically insane, rather than just a fanatic.

What surprises me is his ability for meticulous planning.

This was years in the making, setting up a company that could buy fertilizer, getting uniforms, learning to build a bomb.
Plans, contingency plans.

I don't know much about mental illness, but most severely schizophrenic people can't hold down a job when they go through a bad period, right?

[Safe-Keeper]

NRK (Norwegian state broadcasting) source here (http://www.nrk.no/nyheter/norge/1.7895416). Norwegian, with translator.
BBC source here (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-15936276).

The direct consequence of this is that he may not be sentenced to a prison sentence, only to involuntary psychiatric confinement. His development will need to be reviewed every three years by a judge, who will determine whether his involuntary confinement should be continued.

Either way, it's certain he will be behind bars for a long time.

Edit: damnit, can someone merge this thread or at least fix the title?

[CTB]

It might be inappropriate to punish the very ill Mr Breivik, however "the most probable future Regent of Norway " is the persona responsible and could be, um, treatable.

Not recognising the law is not much of a defence when admitting the murders of dozens of people. He's well aware of what he's done. Detained indefinitely in a hospital wing is not going to be a picnic for the man, but I think it's entirely right to lock-him up. His fantasy world has created enough havoc.

And should the real Mr Breivik ever re-appear? Keep him locked-up, too.

[angrysoba]

There's also the question of sentencing as a deterrent, not merely one of punishment or keeping the public safe from him (and vice versa). He might not "deserve" the sentence, but that's not the only consideration.

Well, that is true, except I don't know how you are supposed to deter other insane people by sentencing someone to prison/death.

[Bad Lieutenant]

The two psychiatrists, in their report, concluded that he lived in his "own delusional universe where all his thoughts and acts are guided by his delusions".

Don't we all? He's criminally insane; that seems to be the difference.

So he's going to a mental hospital instead of a prison - I hope that means he gets locked away in solitary for 22 hours a day and isn't treated to an affable and entertaining social environment.

[bluesjnr]

You may want to arrange a merge with this thread (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=224804).

[David Swidler]

Silly me. I simply assumed one didn't have to specify that one only deters rational people from undertaking mass murder.

[bluesjnr]

And the sooner we stop talking about him the better. Let him be forgotten. It´s the biggest blow to his ego.

I don't think he is a member here so we should be OK for now.

;)

[Rolfe]

It may depend on what they are being asked to do. He was entirely focussed on the object of his obsession. Could he have functioned effectively if asked to concentrate on something else? I suspect not.

Rolfe.

[Bad Lieutenant]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anders_Behring_Breivik

In his early twenties he underwent cosmetic surgery, according to friends, in the chin, nose and forehead, and was very satisfied with the result.

Gay.

edit to clarify. There is a famous example of a psychoanalyst's patient who was obsessed with the idea they had a hideous nose. Their nose was in fact completely normal, but they had repressed lesbian feelings and the target was transferred from the lesbian feelings to the nose on her face. After she came out of the closet she stopped hating her nose. Perhaps Breivik suspected he might be gay. He wrote in his sci-wars diatribe how his closeness to his mother during her illness had lead to his partial feminisation.

[Lamuella]

wow, surprising burst of homophobia in that last post.

[Bad Lieutenant]

I'm guessing you typed that before reading the edit?

[Lamuella]

no. Your post was still weirdly homophobic.

[Ryokan]

Actually, there is evidence to suggest that Breivik is in fact homosexual.

He was semi-active in the gay community when he was younger, and attended at least one gay pride parade. In his manifesto he says he gave people the impression that he was gay so that he would have a reason to isolate himself, and that after his attacks the media would portray him as gay to slander him.

[Safe-Keeper]

There's also the question of sentencing as a deterrent, not merely one of punishment or keeping the public safe from him (and vice versa). He might not "deserve" the sentence, but that's not the only consideration.From a Norwegian standpoint, it is the only consideration. If a person is unable to understand the difference between right and wrong, then you can't lock him up anyway to make an example. I don't know how your country handles things (not sure where "Right here, obviously" is on the map:p), but there's not a snowball's chance in Sahara that's going to pass in Norway.

[Bad Lieutenant]

...

[Lamuella]

Actually, there is evidence to suggest that Breivik was in fact homosexual.

He was semi-active in the gay community when he was younger, and attended at least one gay pride parade. In his manifesto he says he gave people the impression that he was gay so that he would have a reason to isolate himself, and also said after his attacks the media would portray him as gay to slander him.

He could be as gay as George Takei marshalling a Tom Of Finland themed pride march, and it wouldn't make that post much more acceptable.

replying to

"In his early twenties he underwent cosmetic surgery, according to friends, in the chin, nose and forehead, and was very satisfied with the result."

with

"gay."

is ridiculous and prejudicial.

[Bad Lieutenant]

I was accusing Breivik of homophobia - ie, he suspected he might be gay and didn't want to be. I am not saying he was gay, just that he might have suspected he was, due to this "partial feminisation" he underwent, amongst other things.

Homophobia can make people do stupid, violent things.

[Lamuella]

OK, I apologize if I misunderstood your post.

[quadraginta]

Doesn't surprise me that he turned out to be clinically insane, rather than just a fanatic.

What surprises me is his ability for meticulous planning.

This was years in the making, setting up a company that could buy fertilizer, getting uniforms, learning to build a bomb.
Plans, contingency plans.

I don't know much about mental illness, but most severely schizophrenic people can't hold down a job when they go through a bad period, right?


I think the key word is "most", for which we can be profoundly grateful, I guess.

It may depend on what they are being asked to do. He was entirely focussed on the object of his obsession. Could he have functioned effectively if asked to concentrate on something else? I suspect not.

Rolfe.


One thing which I wonder about is if the actual difficulty of planning and acting out such operations isn't magnified out of proportion by the sheer, alien horror surrounding them. It isn't so much that it is that hard to do, but that so few people who could do it would be willing to.

In retrospect most of these sorts of tragedies were implemented with surprisingly little difficulty. I think this is largely because they just weren't that difficult to begin with.

Timothy McVeigh bought some fertilizer and diesel fuel, and rented a truck.

Box-cutters.

We're not talking about evil genius here. The mechanics of the tasks have been pretty mundane.

[Bad Lieutenant]

No problem; the etiology of homophobia is poorly understood and rarely discussed to say the least.

One problem is that anybody admitting to homophobia is immediately denoted homosexual - their worst nightmare. This leads to severe homophobia being pushed underground - there is a veil of silence about it, largely because the gay rights proponents are reluctant to acknowledge there is any good/potent reason somebody might not want to be gay. It's a very complicated issue.

[Vorticity]

I do hope a heavy pillow doesn't fall on top of him while he's asleep in the lunatic asylum.

Get Chief Bromden on it.

[Travis]

I don't care what pills he's on. I don't think I'd ever feel safe in any society that has this guy loose in it.

[Safe-Keeper]

On the contrary, I think Breivik would be attacked and killed by vigilantes the second he was set free. The response of the Vikings wouldn't be "hide the children", but "let's get him".

He would be dead within a week.

[Ryokan]

Breivik has now been told about the conclusions of the psychiatric report, and he's quite offended. Not The Saviour, after all. Just an insane man.

[Rolfe]

On the contrary, I think Breivik would be attacked and killed by vigilantes the second he was set free. The response of the Vikings wouldn't be "hide the children", but "let's get him".

He would be dead within a week.


Well, you're there, you know your neighbours I presume.

I can't see any point in calling for his life to be made a misery. It already is a misery by any normal standards. He's insane.

Lock him up somewhere respectably humane where he can be treated, and treated well. And make sure he never, never, never gets out.

Rolfe.

[Rolfe]

Breivik has now been told about the conclusions of the psychiatric report, and he's quite offended. Not The Saviour, after all. Just an insane man.


He'll probably decide it's all an illuminati plot to defeat him.

Rolfe.

[Safe-Keeper]

Well, you're there, you know your neighbours I presume.It's not that it's a very violent country, but... it just seems inevitable to me given what he's done. Consider how many rapists and people accused of rape are subjected to vigilante assaults on the streets, even though such cases don't make the news (at least not as cases of vigilantism).

[Rolfe]

I don't suppose you'd need a high ratio of vigilantes per head of population for the deed to be done.

Rolfe.

[quadraginta]

Well, you're there, you know your neighbours I presume.

I can't see any point in calling for his life to be made a misery. It already is a misery by any normal standards. He's insane.

Lock him up somewhere respectably humane where he can be treated, and treated well. And make sure he never, never, never gets out.

Rolfe.


... and in related news (http://www.cnn.com/2011/11/29/justice/reagan-attacker-hinckley-hearing/index.html),

Reagan shooter Hinckley to seek freedom at hearing