"freedom" for Iraq

[King of the Americas]

...was the promise that President Bush made in his last press conference, but why didn't he use the term 'democracy'...?

Democracy does NOT equal Freedom, and Freedom does NOT mean Democracy.

In MY view "Freedom" means FREE to do any damn thing one wishes, which in my view may also be charactrerized as "Anarchy".

In a Democracy, the Majority, thorugh elections make laws that the whole will live by.

I just don't see the 'safety' provided by a really free society. Here in America I am NOT 'free' to smoke herion, nor am I 'free' to carry a loaded AK-47 down the street. Allowing people do anything they want will lead to what, exactly?

I guess Iraqis are 'free' of their dictatorial rule, but history suggest that the kind of freedom they are suffering now, will result just another heavily armed citizen taking control, and enforcing his own law, yet again.

As I see it, this Democratization is doomed to failure, since even IF we get what we say we really want, a 'democratic outpost in the Middle East', it isn't going to be a government who's policies we agree with. Most of the people in Iraq are Sunni Muslim, not unlike those ruling Iran. These people AREN'T going to provide America-like Constitutional Amendments that protect Britney Spears & Janet Jackson-like entertainers to appear live from Baghdad.

Governments are merely extensions and expressions of cultural beliefs.

President Bush has offered Iraq "freedom", but not "Democracy".

Sadly, the only thing we have really given them is War in their backyard, "Anarchy" in their streets, and again planted the seeds of another dictator in their fields.

*Notice how this is NOT a personal attack on the President?

[Jocko]

"Democracy" in Iraq is shorthand for "Constitutional Democracy," which is significantly different (and in my opinion, superior) to pure Democracy. It prevents the "will of the majority" from overriding the rights of the minority, as our own Constitution does.

Does that limit freedom? In a way, I guess, if you consider mob rule to be freedom. But it's the foundation of all inalienable rights, human, civil and otherwise that elevates the worth of the individual.

[Tmy]

I smoke heroine all the time!:p

[Kodiak]

Originally posted by Tmy
I smoke heroine all the time!:p


So THAT explains it!! ;) :D

[Kodiak]

Originally posted by Jocko
"Democracy" in Iraq is shorthand for "Constitutional Democracy," which is significantly different (and in my opinion, superior) to pure Democracy. It prevents the "will of the majority" from overriding the rights of the minority, as our own Constitution does.

Does that limit freedom? In a way, I guess, if you consider mob rule to be freedom. But it's the foundation of all inalienable rights, human, civil and otherwise that elevates the worth of the individual.

I have to agree. The administration has always maintained that their goal in Iraq was to leave that country with a Constitutionally limited representative democracy. We'll have to wait and see though if that is what the Iraqi people want. You can't have a "melting pot" if everyone refuses to melt. Look at what happened with Czechoslovakia after the yoke of Soviet Communism was removed from that country.

[Chaos]

Originally posted by Kodiak
I have to agree. The administration has always maintained that their goal in Iraq was to leave that country with a Constitutionally limited representative democracy. We'll have to wait and see though if that is what the Iraqi people want. You can't have a "melting pot" if everyone refuses to melt. Look at what happened with Czechoslovakia after the yoke of Soviet Communism was removed from that country.

(emphasis mine)

You mean Yugoslavia, right?

[Jude]

Originally posted by Tmy
I smoke heroine all the time!:p
Do people actually smoke heroine? I thought it was taken via injection.

[Kodiak]

Originally posted by Chaos


(emphasis mine)

You mean Yugoslavia, right?

No, I meant Czechoslovakia. Yugoslavia is another good, maybe even better, example though.

[Chaos]

Originally posted by Kodiak


No, I meant Czechoslovakia. Yugoslavia is another good, maybe even better, example though.

So what happened to Czechoslovakia? It split up into the Czech Republic and Slovakia - but I don´t recall a civil war or something like that. It actually strikes me as a very peaceful divorce.

[Kodiak]

Originally posted by Chaos


So what happened to Czechoslovakia? It split up into the Czech Republic and Slovakia - but I don´t recall a civil war or something like that. It actually strikes me as a very peaceful divorce.

My only point was simply that the Czechs and Slovenes didn't "melt". Where you inferred the requirement of civil war, I cannot guess. I already agreed that Yugoslavia was another good example.

[Chaos]

Originally posted by Kodiak


My only point was simply that the Czechs and Slovenes didn't "melt". Where you inferred the requirement of civil war, I cannot guess. I already agreed that Yugoslavia was another good example.

I thought you were implying that Czechoslovakia ended in disaster. My mistake.

By the way, Iraq ending like Czechoslovakia is be a pretty positive scenario.

[Elio]

King of the Americas,
Democracy does NOT equal Freedom, and Freedom does NOT mean Democracy.

In MY view "Freedom" means FREE to do any damn thing one wishes, which in my view may also be charactrerized as "Anarchy".

In a Democracy, the Majority, thorugh elections make laws that the whole will live by.
This is not the fist time I notice that strange definition on this forum...

What guarantee that the minority are present at all levels of the gouvernement is not the fact the the people are represented but HOW they are represented and what the laws say.

Representive Republic/Democray doesn't guarantee any more rights than Democracy.

Take care.

Elio.

[Kodiak]

Originally posted by Chaos


I thought you were implying that Czechoslovakia ended in disaster. My mistake.

By the way, Iraq ending like Czechoslovakia is be a pretty positive scenario.

Not as positive as a unified, stable Iraq, IMO...