A Lawyer Explains: James Randi Challenge Exposed

[cappsie]

Hi all,

I was on YouTube and came across this video entitled:
"James Randi Challenge Exposed- A Lawyer Explains"

(I would have posted the link but I'm still too new)

What is this guy talking about? Is there any truth to this or is he just blabbering on in defence of the charlatans and parlour tricksters?

Thanks
Adam

[cappsie]

Erk! I've just realised that his name is Victor Zammit and there is already a lot on him :)

Is there a quick-and-dirty take down of this guy, he seems like a smug git!

A.

[Brian-M]

The video you're talking about...

_91wrhZhTFE

For a quick take-down, compare what he says to the actual challenge details here: http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/1m-challenge/challenge-faq.html

To anyone who understands how the challenge is set-up, it's clear he's talking out his butt.

[Brian-M]

Let's go through his allegations point by point...

Randi is using his million dollar challenge to bully the psychic community.

Offering someone a million dollars to prove that they really can do what they claim they can do (and charge money for doing) hardly counts as bullying.


The challenge is set up in a way that nobody can beat it.

The challenge is set up so that the person making the claim designs the test protocol, and JREF approves the protocol if it meets the necessary requirements to demonstrate that the ability is real.

The only reason why nobody would be able to beat a test that they themselves designed to demonstrate their own abilities would be if their claimed abilities didn't actually exist.


Nobody has been able to beat the preliminary challenge.

The preliminary challenge is the same as the final challenge, except the final challenge is done under closer scrutiny with more stringent controls to make sure there is no trickery, and that passing the preliminary challenge wasn't just a fluke.

But the test protocol doesn't change, it's the same test in both cases. If someone can pass the preliminary test, they can just as easily pass the final test. If nobody's been able to beat the preliminary test, that's only because nobody has demonstrated they have the abilities they claim.


Mediums and psychics that have produced paranormal evidence when scientifically tested at the Windbridge Institute.

One of the key concepts in the scientific process is repeatability. If they are getting valid results, then other institutes should be able to get the same results. If their test protocols are valid, then they can submit them as test protocols for the Million Dollar Challenge.

The fact that this one institute is claiming to produce these results while other organizations cannot replicate them casts serious doubt on their findings.


The challenge is not legally enforcible.

To enter into the challenge you sign a legally binding contract with JREF. If you win, JREF is legally required to pay you the money.


If an applicant beats the two tests, Randi can tell the applicant to "get lost, I had the money yesterday but not today".

Randi doesn't have the money, JREF does. Randi has no say as to what happens to it. The details are public record, anyone can verify that the money exists.


Randi makes the applicants sign a document saying that they will not sue Randi or JREF for any reason.

Read the application yourself: http://www.randi.org/site/images/stories/MDC-Rules-and-Application-2011-03-09.pdf
The applicant waives the right to sue for injury, financial loss, emotional distress, etc. But it specifically states that the applicant DOES NOT waive the right to sue in order to enforce payment.


The challenge is not put on oath, nor pursuant to perjury laws.

This accusation doesn't even make sense. The applicant isn't standing up in court of law to declare that he has these powers, nor is he signing a statutory declaration that these powers exist. He's demonstrating that these powers exist.

But then he talks about Randi going to jail if he reneges on the challenge. But that's what a legally binding contract is for. Perjury law doesn't come into it until stands up in court to testify, in which case perjury law does apply.


The challenge is subject to the experimenter effect,

That's why double-blinding exists, to remove experimenter effect from the equation. It's standard procedure in scientific studies. This is built into the test protocols where appropriate, and is not a problem.


The results have to be self-evident. But self-evident to whom?

That's why the protocols are required to clearly define what does or does not qualify as a "pass" or "fail" in a way that can be objectively measured, and is not a matter of subjective opinion.


Evidence is a highly technical matter. You'd need a litigation lawyer to tell you what constitutes admissible psychic evidence.

He's committing an equivocation fallacy here. The evidence doesn't have to be admissible in a court of law. It's a challenge, not a trial. Both parties agree on what they will consider acceptable evidence beforehand, and this is written into the contract. There is no ambiguity.


Randi has exclusive control and ownership of all "evidence".

The application gives JREF the right to freely use the evidence, not exclusive control and ownership.


There is no mention of the levels of statistical significance required for the results.

This is determined when the protocol is negotiated. Required statistical significance is clearly defined, there is no room allowed for dispute.


Professor Dennis Roys claims that Randy told him that he'd always have a way out of paying off the challenge.

I'd have thought a lawyer would be wary of the pitfalls of hearsay.


Randi is a master of illusion. The money is an illusion. There is no money.

Non-profit organizations such as JREF are required to make their financial statements a matter of public record. The million-dollar challenge bank statement can be viewed here: http://www.randi.org/site/images/stories/evercore.pdf

Assets: $1,201,027.16

Does he think that Randi would risk imprisonment by providing false documentation?

[cappsie]

That is an excellent reply! Thank you :D

A.

[Horatius]

That is an excellent reply! Thank you :D

A.



But, alas, one that will go completely ignored by those who need it most. All those points have been made before, and ignored before. There are none so blind as the willfully blind.

[Furcifer]

Let's go through his allegations point by point...

Randi is using his million dollar challenge to bully the psychic community.

Offering someone a million dollars to prove that they really can do what they claim they can do (and charge money for doing) hardly counts as bullying.


The challenge is set up in a way that nobody can beat it.

The challenge is set up so that the person making the claim designs the test protocol, and JREF approves the protocol if it meets the necessary requirements to demonstrate that the ability is real.

The only reason why nobody would be able to beat a test that they themselves designed to demonstrate their own abilities would be if their claimed abilities didn't actually exist.


Nobody has been able to beat the preliminary challenge.

The preliminary challenge is the same as the final challenge, except the final challenge is done under closer scrutiny with more stringent controls to make sure there is no trickery, and that passing the preliminary challenge wasn't just a fluke.

But the test protocol doesn't change, it's the same test in both cases. If someone can pass the preliminary test, they can just as easily pass the final test. If nobody's been able to beat the preliminary test, that's only because nobody has demonstrated they have the abilities they claim.


Mediums and psychics that have produced paranormal evidence when scientifically tested at the Windbridge Institute.

One of the key concepts in the scientific process is repeatability. If they are getting valid results, then other institutes should be able to get the same results. If their test protocols are valid, then they can submit them as test protocols for the Million Dollar Challenge.

The fact that this one institute is claiming to produce these results while other organizations cannot replicate them casts serious doubt on their findings.


The challenge is not legally enforcible.

To enter into the challenge you sign a legally binding contract with JREF. If you win, JREF is legally required to pay you the money.


If an applicant beats the two tests, Randi can tell the applicant to "get lost, I had the money yesterday but not today".

Randi doesn't have the money, JREF does. Randi has no say as to what happens to it. The details are public record, anyone can verify that the money exists.


Randi makes the applicants sign a document saying that they will not sue Randi or JREF for any reason.

Read the application yourself: http://www.randi.org/site/images/stories/MDC-Rules-and-Application-2011-03-09.pdf
The applicant waives the right to sue for injury, financial loss, emotional distress, etc. But it specifically states that the applicant DOES NOT waive the right to sue in order to enforce payment.


The challenge is not put on oath, nor pursuant to perjury laws.

This accusation doesn't even make sense. The applicant isn't standing up in court of law to declare that he has these powers, nor is he signing a statutory declaration that these powers exist. He's demonstrating that these powers exist.

But then he talks about Randi going to jail if he reneges on the challenge. But that's what a legally binding contract is for. Perjury law doesn't come into it until stands up in court to testify, in which case perjury law does apply.


The challenge is subject to the experimenter effect,

That's why double-blinding exists, to remove experimenter effect from the equation. It's standard procedure in scientific studies. This is built into the test protocols where appropriate, and is not a problem.


The results have to be self-evident. But self-evident to whom?

That's why the protocols are required to clearly define what does or does not qualify as a "pass" or "fail" in a way that can be objectively measured, and is not a matter of subjective opinion.


Evidence is a highly technical matter. You'd need a litigation lawyer to tell you what constitutes admissible psychic evidence.

He's committing an equivocation fallacy here. The evidence doesn't have to be admissible in a court of law. It's a challenge, not a trial. Both parties agree on what they will consider acceptable evidence beforehand, and this is written into the contract. There is no ambiguity.


Randi has exclusive control and ownership of all "evidence".

The application gives JREF the right to freely use the evidence, not exclusive control and ownership.


There is no mention of the levels of statistical significance required for the results.

This is determined when the protocol is negotiated. Required statistical significance is clearly defined, there is no room allowed for dispute.


Professor Dennis Roys claims that Randy told him that he'd always have a way out of paying off the challenge.

I'd have thought a lawyer would be wary of the pitfalls of hearsay.


Randi is a master of illusion. The money is an illusion. There is no money.

Non-profit organizations such as JREF are required to make their financial statements a matter of public record. The million-dollar challenge bank statement can be viewed here: http://www.randi.org/site/images/stories/evercore.pdf

Assets: $1,201,027.16

Does he think that Randi would risk imprisonment by providing false documentation?

Nice post. I don't believe Brian is a lawyer and he legally owned that "lawyer" with logic. I can't believe a professional would publicly state something so demonstrably false.

[Locknar]

Nicely done Brian-M

[Soapy Sam]

"A lawyer explains..."

There's a notion.

[Loss Leader]

Poor Victor Zammit. I corresponded with him for several months. He's just the nicest guy and a pretty good lawyer. Somehow, when it comes to the paranormal, he just becomes completely and utterly unreasonable. He cannot think critically about anything having to do with God, psychics, seances or a bunch of other nonsense. I wish him nothing but health and happiness.

[Cleon]

Nice post. I don't believe Brian is a lawyer and he legally owned that "lawyer" with logic. I can't believe a professional would publicly state something so demonstrably false.

Two words: Orly Taitz.

[fuelair]

The video you're talking about...

_91wrhZhTFE

For a quick take-down, compare what he says to the actual challenge details here: http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/1m-challenge/challenge-faq.html

To anyone who understands how the challenge is set-up, it's clear he's talking out his butt.Which works fine as the brain and speaking point ought generally to be near each other.

[Cuddles]

Professor Dennis Roys claims that Randy told him that he'd always have a way out of paying off the challenge.

I'd have thought a lawyer would be wary of the pitfalls of hearsay.

Just to note on this point, Randi has said that he always has a way out of paying, and it's a quote woos have loved to cherry pick ever since. I don't have a link to where he said it, but the point he was making was that his way out of paying is magic doesn't exist and therefore no-one will ever win. Personally I think it was rather bad phrasing to describe that as "having an out" and just begging for people to interpret it exactly as Zammit does here. But when looked at in context, it's clear he wasn't saying he could get out of paying if someone actually wins, just that he doesn't believe he will ever need to pay because no-one is going to win.

[Eddie Dane]

Let's go through his allegations point by point...

Randi is using his million dollar challenge to bully the psychic community.

Offering someone a million dollars to prove that they really can do what they claim they can do (and charge money for doing) hardly counts as bullying.


The challenge is set up in a way that nobody can beat it.

The challenge is set up so that the person making the claim designs the test protocol, and JREF approves the protocol if it meets the necessary requirements to demonstrate that the ability is real.

The only reason why nobody would be able to beat a test that they themselves designed to demonstrate their own abilities would be if their claimed abilities didn't actually exist.


Nobody has been able to beat the preliminary challenge.

The preliminary challenge is the same as the final challenge, except the final challenge is done under closer scrutiny with more stringent controls to make sure there is no trickery, and that passing the preliminary challenge wasn't just a fluke.

But the test protocol doesn't change, it's the same test in both cases. If someone can pass the preliminary test, they can just as easily pass the final test. If nobody's been able to beat the preliminary test, that's only because nobody has demonstrated they have the abilities they claim.


Mediums and psychics that have produced paranormal evidence when scientifically tested at the Windbridge Institute.

One of the key concepts in the scientific process is repeatability. If they are getting valid results, then other institutes should be able to get the same results. If their test protocols are valid, then they can submit them as test protocols for the Million Dollar Challenge.

The fact that this one institute is claiming to produce these results while other organizations cannot replicate them casts serious doubt on their findings.


The challenge is not legally enforcible.

To enter into the challenge you sign a legally binding contract with JREF. If you win, JREF is legally required to pay you the money.


If an applicant beats the two tests, Randi can tell the applicant to "get lost, I had the money yesterday but not today".

Randi doesn't have the money, JREF does. Randi has no say as to what happens to it. The details are public record, anyone can verify that the money exists.


Randi makes the applicants sign a document saying that they will not sue Randi or JREF for any reason.

Read the application yourself: http://www.randi.org/site/images/stories/MDC-Rules-and-Application-2011-03-09.pdf
The applicant waives the right to sue for injury, financial loss, emotional distress, etc. But it specifically states that the applicant DOES NOT waive the right to sue in order to enforce payment.


The challenge is not put on oath, nor pursuant to perjury laws.

This accusation doesn't even make sense. The applicant isn't standing up in court of law to declare that he has these powers, nor is he signing a statutory declaration that these powers exist. He's demonstrating that these powers exist.

But then he talks about Randi going to jail if he reneges on the challenge. But that's what a legally binding contract is for. Perjury law doesn't come into it until stands up in court to testify, in which case perjury law does apply.


The challenge is subject to the experimenter effect,

That's why double-blinding exists, to remove experimenter effect from the equation. It's standard procedure in scientific studies. This is built into the test protocols where appropriate, and is not a problem.


The results have to be self-evident. But self-evident to whom?

That's why the protocols are required to clearly define what does or does not qualify as a "pass" or "fail" in a way that can be objectively measured, and is not a matter of subjective opinion.


Evidence is a highly technical matter. You'd need a litigation lawyer to tell you what constitutes admissible psychic evidence.

He's committing an equivocation fallacy here. The evidence doesn't have to be admissible in a court of law. It's a challenge, not a trial. Both parties agree on what they will consider acceptable evidence beforehand, and this is written into the contract. There is no ambiguity.


Randi has exclusive control and ownership of all "evidence".

The application gives JREF the right to freely use the evidence, not exclusive control and ownership.


There is no mention of the levels of statistical significance required for the results.

This is determined when the protocol is negotiated. Required statistical significance is clearly defined, there is no room allowed for dispute.


Professor Dennis Roys claims that Randy told him that he'd always have a way out of paying off the challenge.

I'd have thought a lawyer would be wary of the pitfalls of hearsay.


Randi is a master of illusion. The money is an illusion. There is no money.

Non-profit organizations such as JREF are required to make their financial statements a matter of public record. The million-dollar challenge bank statement can be viewed here: http://www.randi.org/site/images/stories/evercore.pdf

Assets: $1,201,027.16

Does he think that Randi would risk imprisonment by providing false documentation?

Sooooo,

Can one copy-paste that much text into a Youtube comment?

[rjh01]

Sooooo,

Can one copy-paste that much text into a Youtube comment?

No.
1. There is a limit of 500 characters per comment.
2. No comments allowed on that video.

[Mojo]

Just to note on this point, Randi has said that he always has a way out of paying, and it's a quote woos have loved to cherry pick ever since. I don't have a link to where he said it, but the point he was making was that his way out of paying is magic doesn't exist and therefore no-one will ever win. Personally I think it was rather bad phrasing to describe that as "having an out" and just begging for people to interpret it exactly as Zammit does here. But when looked at in context, it's clear he wasn't saying he could get out of paying if someone actually wins, just that he doesn't believe he will ever need to pay because no-one is going to win.


The full sentence was "Concerning the challenge, I always have an out: I'm right", apparently. See http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=73518

[Jeff Corey]

http://www.aaskolnick.com/dammit/

[paiute]

He's just the nicest guy and a pretty good lawyer.

You contradict yourself.

[kittynh]

Point is also, if any of these paranormal people were able to do what they claim WITH ANY DEGREE OF CONSISTENCY....they would have more than a million dollars in their pocket. Heck even a dowser, that had good accuracy, would be the DOWSING GOD being paid by large corporations to find water, oil...whatever. If they could...they would. They can't.

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Point is also, if any of these paranormal people were able to do what they claim WITH ANY DEGREE OF CONSISTENCY....they would have more than a million dollars in their pocket. Heck even a dowser, that had good accuracy, would be the DOWSING GOD being paid by large corporations to find water, oil...whatever. If they could...they would. They can't.

But Uri Geller does do all those things!

At least he says he does. :rolleyes:

[fuelair]

You contradict yourself.Not if LL is a Great White Shark!!!:):jaw-dropp

[Brian-M]

If you're interested in seeing someone attempt the challenge, here's the
Connie Sonne Dowsing Test...

Part 1.
U_qiG9PUiaQ
Part 2.
USw7XXT0RXk
Part 3.
zavQQe76xS8
Part 4.
coLE93t1R0A

To cut a long story short, a deck of cards had been sorted out into suits, the face cards removed, and the each of the remaining ten cards from each suit placed in envelopes and shuffled. (This was done in advance.)

Ten envelopes containing one suit are placed in front of her and a ten-sided die is rolled. She uses her dowsing "powers" to locate the envelope holding the card with the same number as was rolled. The envelope is marked with the number it was supposed to contain, and placed to one side.

The table is then cleared and the process is repeated again. Then again a third time. (The fourth suit is not used.)

Then they open all three marked envelopes to discover that she had failed every time.

Does anyone else have links to videos of other preliminary tests? This was the only one I could find.

[GrandMasterFox]

I would also like to point out that anyone who thinks Randi's best intrest is to cheat psychics, let them think for a moment what it would mean if Randi actually find a psychic that passes the challenge.

He will be able to throw this in the face of every single psychic he ever trashed in his life time. Geller, Edwards, Dubois, heck how many times did Browne claimed that there was no money? Imagine what it would do when someone actually wins it?

Heck, Randi will officially claim himself the "real psychic tester" and make a fortune as a complete authority on the matter.
I'm not even getting into the insane amounts of money he could make from the movie rights and public speaking.

He has a lot more to gain by proving a psychic is real than cheating.
Of course that is under the assumption there is such a thing as a real psychic to begin with.

[Mojo]

I would also like to point out that anyone who thinks Randi's best intrest is to cheat psychics, let them think for a moment what it would mean if Randi actually find a psychic that passes the challenge.


That they know a trick that Randi doesn't?

[GrandMasterFox]

That they know a trick that Randi doesn't?

Well, yes and no. As I said, Randi has a lot to gain if a psychic passess the test. However, if said Psychic is later exposed as a fraud, he'll lose everything he gained his entire life.

Therefore, his best bet would be to keep the test honestly. So frauds don't pass and legitamate people won't fail.

So far, no has passed so it's less of a risk a fraud will pass.
Especially considering how much attention a person passing the perlimnary challenge would generate.