Killing: What Can We Do To Stop It?

[subgenius]

CROOKSTON, Minn. - The body of college student Dru Sjodin has been found, five months after she disappeared from the parking lot of a North Dakota shopping mall, authorities said Saturday.
....

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4766117/


The more we just wreak vengence on the actor, and not try to solve the problem of why someone would do such a thing, the more this will continue to happen.
Understanding, and addressing, why someone becomes an animal capable of doing inhuman things, is not the same as setting them free.

We can execute all the psychotic killers we want and that won't stop psychoses.

May her family find peace. My heart is completely broken tonight.

[Nasarius]

We can execute all the psychotic killers we want and that won't stop psychoses.

How many murderers are genuinely, treatably 'psychotic'? Not nearly all, I think.
Sadly, killing and war seem to be part of human nature. Short of a "Brave New World" type of society, it's just not going to end no matter what we do.

:(

[crimresearch]

I would hope that no one would have to endure being a victim of such things, but it happens, and it happens so much that it is tempting to think of it as the way humans are by nature..

And even those areas where we do have an understanding of the causes, or at least some of the factors involved, don't suggest any workable solutions to prevent future victims from suffering the same fate.

Segregate all the adolescent males with closed head injuries to encompass the ones that will turn violent? Take away motor vehicles from all except the smallest, safest, demographic?
Demonize objects that are employed by or associated with violent criminals?

Lots of explanations of human behaviors over the years, very few useful solutions.
And precious litttle in the way of consolation for victims or their loved ones.

Paul

[RandFan]

Originally posted by subgenius
The more we just wreak vengence on the actor, and not try to solve the problem of why someone would do such a thing, the more this will continue to happen.

Understanding, and addressing, why someone becomes an animal capable of doing inhuman things, is not the same as setting them free. I don't equate punishment to vengeance. Is punishment mutually exclusive to understanding and prevention?

We can execute all the psychotic killers we want and that won't stop psychoses. Is it a foregone conclusion that the murderer of Dru was psychotic?

May her family find peace. My heart is completely broken tonight. I share your sentiment.

[Shane Costello]

Tragic as this case is, isn't it untypical of homicide in general? From what I've read most murders are fairly banal affairs. I think your chances of being murdered by a stranger, psychotic or not, are infintisimally small.

[rikzilla]

Originally posted by subgenius
CROOKSTON, Minn. - The body of college student Dru Sjodin has been found, five months after she disappeared from the parking lot of a North Dakota shopping mall, authorities said Saturday.
....

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4766117/


The more we just wreak vengence on the actor, and not try to solve the problem of why someone would do such a thing, the more this will continue to happen.
Understanding, and addressing, why someone becomes an animal capable of doing inhuman things, is not the same as setting them free.

We can execute all the psychotic killers we want and that won't stop psychoses.

May her family find peace. My heart is completely broken tonight.

SG,

You are an infuriatingly good hearted leftist nutter. It's hard to dislike you for long, but God how I do continue to try!

The fact is that people have mental diseases, or are warped as children by abuse. We haven't had alot of luck in curing mental illnesses,...and abusive people exist everywhere. The only thing we can do is what we've been doing. Punish the abusive with incarceration to keep society safe.....and treat the criminally insane in secure medical facilities....again with incarceration to keep society safe.

Churches and schools are out there attempting to educate and support people and families so abuses can be curbed....but it's human nature SG, that murderous nutters will spring up in our midst. Life is impermanent...hug your wife and kids every day.

-z

[shemp]

Originally posted by rikzilla


SG,

You are an infuriatingly good hearted leftist nutter. It's hard to dislike you for long, but God how I do continue to try!



Of course, in rik's book, the rest of us "leftist nutters" are just scum who delight in such murders.

Killings like this have been taking place ever since the dawn of man. The only difference is that today, we are much more likely to hear about them than to have them swept under the rug.

I don't think it's possible for a society that revels in sex and violence (and the combination thereof) to prevent all of these types of killings, only to minimize them. A good start would be to clean up the exploitation of women and sexual themes in popular entertainment. By "clean up," I don't mean some kind of crude xian or Bushian censorship; what I mean is, we should promote a general awareness of the effects of such exploitation, especially among young people, and encourage people to shun such exploitation. We need to reduce our society's view of women as sexual playthings, and encourage more respect for women as human beings.

But when it does happen, swift and harsh punishment is needed. This is where I split with the general liberal view of criminal treatment. Some people truly are subhuman scum do deserve the death penalty, and this guy is one of them.

[subgenius]

Aw, my post didn't make much sense, just blowing off steam, grief...seems like something can be done to prevent some from becoming so warped....as my good friend rik says some comes from abuse they suffered as a child....so it seems trying to break that cycle would be good.......it seems that for the mental illnesses we need better treatment and better ways of identifying those who may be a danger to society....killing them afterwards, something I'm not objecting to, don't bring back the victims...

[Suddenly]

Originally posted by RandFan
I don't equate punishment to vengeance. What is the practical difference between the two?

Is punishment mutually exclusive to understanding and prevention?


This is the the central question, it would seem. Punishment is clearly not mutually exclusive to prevention. Execution or a prison term can go a long way towards making sure that that particular person won't commit future crimes. Also, punishment and understanding are not mutually exclusive. One can design a set of diagnostic tests that are purposefully unpleasant to the subject, of for that matter just dissect the subject alive. Of course, it will often be the case that each of these objectives contains elements of the others.

There are going to be situations where these goals conflict, and that is when we need to decide priorities.

When dealing with a person that tends to commit terrible crimes, Preventing that person from harming others would be the first priority in any reasonable system. Some sort of restraint, or under certain conditions, execution can be justified for this reason alone.

After that, we have things like punishment, vengance, prevention of other crimes (deterrence, understanding why crime happens), and rehabilitation (if possible)

These objectives may be different depending on the crime and the particular criminal. It makes no sense to punish someone without the capacity to control their behaviour, or to treat them in such a way to deter similar behaviour. Likewise, it makes no sense to try to rehabilitate people that commit crimes based on a risk/reward analysis. For example, the killer for hire or the person who drives too fast to work to save time. These penalties would be all about deterrance.

In this case we just don't know the story. To imprison the murderer in order to protect the innocent is going to be a good move regardless of further details, but to suggest that the person be purposefully made to suffer or conversely be treated and studied seems to be premature. He could be a raving nutbag of some variety, or perhaps someone was getting rid of a witness to a theft.

[RandFan]

RandFan
I don't equate punishment to vengeance

Suddenly
What is the practical difference between the two? The former is proactive and is intent on specific goals like behavior modification and the protection of society. The latter is reactive and is based on emotion.

Having been punished a number of times for failing to obey traffic laws I have finally learned my lesson and have not had a ticket in over three years. My licence had been suspended because I did not take laws seriously enough. Those in power who took away my licence were not reacting to emotional stimulus but were pro actively attempting to alter my future behavior. It worked.

The question is, WHY am I explaining this to you?

[Richard G]

Kill the killers, and kill them before they kill. You do that by arming yourself.

[Suddenly]

Originally posted by RandFan
The former is proactive and is intent on specific goals like behavior modification and the protection of society. The latter is reactive and is based on emotion.

Having been punished a number of times for failing to obey traffic laws I have finally learned my lesson and have not had a ticket in over three years. My licence had been suspended because I did not take laws seriously enough. Those in power who took away my licence were not reacting to emotional stimulus but were pro actively attempting to alter my future behavior. It worked.

The question is, WHY am I explaining this to you?

Often, people use punishment and vengence to mean the same thing, the function of making someone suffer for it's own sake. Other people use punishment to mean any sort of remedial action taken against someone.

When the state takes away your license they are not "punishing" you in that the primary objective of their act is to make you suffer. The primary objective is to control your future behaviour, and also likely to deter others from the same activity. You may suffer, but that isn't the stated objective for the state action. That is the more broad definition of "punishment."

I was curious what definition you were working with.

[Hexxenhammer]

Dru was going to my college, UND, and working at the same mall I worked at when I lived in Grand Forks.

This one hit me pretty hard.

For a more JREF mission perspective on this case see: http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=34932

[EvilYeti]

Originally posted by subgenius

The more we just wreak vengence on the actor, and not try to solve the problem of why someone would do such a thing, the more this will continue to happen.
Understanding, and addressing, why someone becomes an animal capable of doing inhuman things, is not the same as setting them free.

We can execute all the psychotic killers we want and that won't stop psychoses.


As has been pointed out earlier in this thread, you are much more likely to be murdered by a close relative or friend than a complete stranger. I therefore question the wisdom of focusing on the outliers (the predatory psychopath for example) when there are bigger fish to fry, so to speak.

There are whole branches of psychology devoted to studying why people engage in abberrant, destructive behavior and at this point the pathology is well documented. What is less well understood is the origins of such disorders and what, if anything can be done about it. If the dominating factor turns out to be genetic, not environmental, nothing short of engineering future humans is going to be able to totally fix the problem.

I also think you are underestimating the value a threat of punishment plays in keeping deviant behavior in line. For example, I suffer from a bevy of personality disorders, one of the more serious ones being strongly anti-social. Understand this has a very specific meaning aside from the common usage, namely that I lack a conscience. This may surprise some people that know me, as I behave in a very moral fashion (usually). However, my morality is strictly rational, not emotional. I'm fully capable of theft, assault, murder, etc without feeling any remorse for such actions (I think, not ever having actually done anything like that!).

What keeps me in line primarily is a very strong belief that moral behavior benifits everyone in the long term, myself included. When I'm tempted with immoral actions, often its the threat of a punitive response that keeps my behavior in check.

The question I have is, if we can find some way of 100% accurately determining which individuals are at high risk of deviant behavior (like myself), what should be done about it?

Should I be locked away because I'm more of a risk to society than the average human?

It's a difficult question and I'm not entirely sure there will ever be a right answer.

[LucyR]

Originally posted by subgenius

Understanding, and addressing, why someone becomes an animal capable of doing inhuman things, is not the same as setting them free.


Silly remark.

[LucyR]

Originally posted by Shane Costello
I think your chances of being murdered by a stranger, psychotic or not, are infintisimally small.

Bullsh*t.

[epepke]

Originally posted by Suddenly
Often, people use punishment and vengence to mean the same thing, the function of making someone suffer for it's own sake.

I have to agree here. In most instances, punishment of criminals seems to follow a a pattern of vengeance. Arguments about what punishment someone should deserve are almost uniformly couched in terms of vengeance.

Punishment as a behavior modifier seems to be all but nonexistent in the American criminal justice system. It seems to have little or nothing to do with the findings of behavioral psychology.

[Some Friggin Guy]

I can offer nothing constructive to this conversation. I am merely posting to state my mourning of Miss Sjodin.

[richardm]

Originally posted by LucyR


Bullsh*t.

That's a bit harsh.

Have a look at table 2.12 from this FBI Page. (http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/02cius.htm)

It shows a total number of murders by strangers in the USA for 2002 (a year I picked at random) to be 1,963.

That compares with 6076 murders where the victim knew the murderer. (There are another 6000-odd where nobody knows who did the deed).

1,963 murders by strangers out of a total population of, what, 300 million?

That's pretty tiny odds.

[Suddenly]

Originally posted by epepke


I have to agree here. In most instances, punishment of criminals seems to follow a a pattern of vengeance. Arguments about what punishment someone should deserve are almost uniformly couched in terms of vengeance.

Punishment as a behavior modifier seems to be all but nonexistent in the American criminal justice system. It seems to have little or nothing to do with the findings of behavioral psychology.

Yeah. Sometimes I see examples that I still don't understand.

Like a guy doing life for murder who has some sort of massive anti-social behavior problem, but who gradually gets better if he is in stable surroundings with some controlled exposure to other people. He winds up killing someone out of some paranoid delusion after his parents move "to see if a new enviroment would help keep him out of trouble." To be fair, this is before they knew all the psyche stuff about stablility.

So he goes to prison. He gets in trouble in the med-max, so they move him to max, where he cuts a guard. He then as punishment gets locked in virtual isolation for 6 years, and now they act suprised that he is a complete raving violent lunatic. They wonder why he hasn't calmed down in prison.

It's like they are trying to drain water out of a boat by punching holes in the bottom. They want to make him calm down, so they take a cause of action guaranteed to make him worse.