Question about the period (grammar related)

[Beckett]

Over the years I have been annoyed on a few occasions while reading. My problem is that, while capitalization (and spacing, of course) is used to indicate the beginning of a sentence, I find that I sometimes still get confused as to when a declarative sentence actually ends. The decimal point I don't believe has ever been a problem but when a dot is used to abbreviate a word, sometimes the accompaniment of a capitalized word following has caused confusion.

I'm just curious to know if there is a symbol or mark (accessible on my keyboard) similar to a period that I can use to indicate the end of a declarative sentence, seperate from the dot used in URLs or abbreviations?

Edit: While writing this I decided to see if I could create a bold period using HTML. Yep, it worked. I now have a nice obvious mark to differentiate a period that ends a declarative sentence from the decimal point and other dots, provided I don't use HTML otherwise. I suppose my question now is, how do I make it easier to type a bold period without having to retype the HTML using my keyboard?

Actually, I would like my original question to be answered as well if possible. The English language is an old one and I can't possibly be the first or only person to take an interest in making the period unique from it's relatives. Is there already a mark easily accessible on a keyboard resembling a bold period? Is such a mark actually in use?

Your help would be greatly appreciated. <-- :p

[Abdul Alhazred]

Originally posted by Beckett
Over the years I have been annoyed on a few occasions while reading. My problem is that, while capitalization (and spacing, of course) is used to indicate the beginning of a sentence, I find that I sometimes still get confused as to when a declarative sentence actually ends...

You seem to have done just fine to me my problem is commas. :p

Somebody or other (maybe Ambrose Bierce?) once suggested a "never mind" mark. The curly top of a question mark with a comma instead of a period below.

This is for when you ask a question and then keep going because you are not interested in the answer. :D

[Mendor]

The way TeX does it, I think, is to vary the amount of space it puts after the period.

e.g. something like this.Note that there's more space between the sentences than between words, or after the dot after "g".This sentence will use gratuitous abbreviations etc. to illustrate the difference.

There is no distinction between the two types of period in typography other than that, I think.

Wikipedia knows all: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Full_stop

[drkitten]

Originally posted by Beckett


I'm just curious to know if there is a symbol or mark (accessible on my keyboard) similar to a period that I can use to indicate the end of a declarative sentence, seperate from the dot used in URLs or abbreviations?



Yes! There are several marks that you can use to indicate the end of a sentence; the problem is a lot of them look rather silly, yes?

[Jeff Corey]

[i]The English language is an old one and I can't possibly be the first or only person to take an interest in making the period unique from it's relatives. [/B]
It's?

[Soapy Sam]

Ah! The apostrophisation of "its" problem.

Take three semi colons and call me in the morning.

[CFLarsen]

You can only use the period once every 28 days (circa).























Oh, come on! You knew it had to happen!! :D

[Beckett]

Thanks, Mendor! I hadn't considered double-spacing. I attempted it in this post but as I previewed it I discovered that the double-spacing didn't work. (I'm guessing because the HTML is on?) Is there a simple way to double-space after sentences when writing here in the forums?

You seem to have done just fine to me my problem is commas.

Abdul Alhazred, you must have a stronger dislike for reading user license agreements than I do!

It's?

Whoops! You caught me. I meant to show it in its possessive form, not as a contraction.

Yes! There are several marks that you can use to indicate the end of a sentence; the problem is a lot of them look rather silly, yes?

I absolutely can not come up with a witty response to this at the moment¬ So, you're unfortunately left with this¥ My apologies¦

[Beckett]

Ah! The apostrophisation of "its" problem.

I probably make many grammatical errors, but this shouldn't have been one of them. I do know better, I swear!

Take three semi colons and call me in the morning.

Isn't this a high dosage? Are you licensed to practice grammar?

You can only use the period once every 28 days (circa).

I absolutely can not come up with a witty response to this at the moment¬ So, you're unfortunately left with this¥ My apologies¦

[Beckett]

D'oh! I forgot to thank everyone for their responses! Thank you, all, for your responses!

Carry on.

[epepke]

Originally posted by Beckett
Thanks, Mendor! I hadn't considered double-spacing. I attempted it in this post but as I previewed it I discovered that the double-spacing didn't work. (I'm guessing because the HTML is on?) Is there a simple way to double-space after sentences when writing here in the forums?

Back in the day of typewriters, people used to use double spaces after periods. I still do. Most people think it's silly, though. However, in HTML, no distinction is made between different kinds of whitespace, although in VB, carriage returns are treated differently.

You can, if you want, use the (I hope this works) &amp;nbsp; token to mean a non-breaking space. This is a space that isn't broken along paragraphs. Some browsers don't like strings of &amp;nbsp;, so alternate it with real spaces.

This canget really silly if&nbsp you &nbsp do&nbsp it&nbsp a lot.

[Jeff Corey]

Originally posted by Beckett
Isn't this a high dosage? Are you licensed to practice grammar?
It looks like a high colonic to me.

[Mendor]

Originally posted by Beckett
Thanks, Mendor! I hadn't considered double-spacing. I attempted it in this post but as I previewed it I discovered that the double-spacing didn't work. (I'm guessing because the HTML is on?) Is there a simple way to double-space after sentences when writing here in the forums?In short -- no. sorry.

epepke is right - nbsp is the best you can do, I think; a string of normal spaces are all collapsed into one space otherwise.

[Psi Baba]

Originally posted by Mendor
In short -- no. sorry.

epepke is right - nbsp is the best you can do, I think; a string of normal spaces are all collapsed into one space otherwise.
That's true. One way around the capital letter after an abbreviation problem is to simply not use periods for abbreviations. Most abbreviations (Dr, etc, ie, bs) are well-known and the period is superfluous. Not only that, MS Word can't tell the difference and always want to capitalize any word that follows an abbreviation, just because of the period. That's annoying. The conflict I encounter most often is when typing a url or e-mail address as the last word of a sentence, such www.yahoo.com. I often worry that people who are not too internet savvy may think that the last dot is part of the url and type it into their web browser that way. I usually end up leaving the period off, then starting a whole new line for my next sentence. Awkward, yes, but I haven't devised a better solution.

Sidenote: I just tried a few web addresses with a dot at the end. Yahoo and Google handle the problem fine, but one that I typed in gave this. I've NEVER seen a 403.6 error before. Weird.

HTTP Error 403.6
"Forbidden: IP address Not Known"
LEGAL NOTICE

*** UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS PROHIBITED -- DEVICE 28574 ***

Your activities may be logged for security purposes. Access to this device is permitted only with the express authorization of its owner, with specific reference to the device identity above, and only if you are CURRENTLY an employee, contractor or affiliate of the owner. Unless you are sure that you have specific authorization to access this device as specifically identified above, then your access to this device is NOT AUTHORIZED.
Use of this device is exclusively for the benefit of its owner, and may not be used for any other purpose. By remaining connected to this device, you represent that you have authorization to do so, and that you AGREE to all terms of use. Otherwise, you must DISCONNECT NOW. Unauthorized access will be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

[pupdog]

I read in a word-processing manual that, if you learned to double space between sentences, you should stop because the software automatically adjusts spacing.

But I hate how MicroSoft tries to embarass me, changing all my "pH"s into "Ph"s.

[zakur]

Originally posted by pupdog
But I hate how MicroSoft tries to embarass me, changing all my "pH"s into "Ph"s. Easily fixed in your Tools-->AutoCorrect menu.

[Iconoclast]

Originally posted by Psi Baba
One way around the capital letter after an abbreviation problem is to simply not use periods for abbreviations. Most abbreviations (Dr, etc, ie, bs) are well-known and the period is superfluous.My understanding -- and it's along time since I learnt basic English, so I may be misremembering -- is that a full stop is required after an abbreviation if the last letter of the abbreviation is NOT the last letter of the word being abbreviated.

So, Pty Ltd (Proprietry Limited) should have no full stops, but Co. (for Company) should.

[zeno]

Beckett: :w2:

A Panda walks into a cafe. He orders a sandwich, eats it, then draws a gun and fires two shots in the air.

"Why?" asks the confused waiter, as the Panda makes towards the exit. The Panda produces a badly puntuated wildlife manual and tosses it over his shoulder.

"I'm a Panda," he says, at the door. "Look it up."

The waiter turns to the relevant entry and, sure enough, finds an explanation.

"Panda. Large black-and-white bear-like mammal, native to China. Eats, shoots and leaves."

From "Eats, Shoots & Leaves," :book: by Lynne Truss. I'm up to page 27. Its and it's has already been delineated. I forgot what she said.

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Abdul Alhazred
You seem to have done just fine to me my problem is commas. :p
That's because there are 17 different uses of the comma, two of which are mutually exclusive. This is owing to the fact that (take that, Strunk and White! :D ) usea of the comma has grown up over time, and the comma has thus been employed for different functions in different ages.
As to the period (or "full stop", as we Brits call it), the confusion arises because of the stupid American habit of placing it inside quotes regardless. Consider:
Sophia asked Lord Fellamar if he was "out of his senses".
Sophia asked Lord Fellamar if he was "out of his senses."
Surely, the former is correct, as it ends the sentence--which starts with "Sophia", not with "out", as "out of his senses." is clearly not a sentence.
Fore more, read pages 152 to 155 of Lynn Truss's Eats, Shoots, and Leaves. (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/1861976127/qid=1094564229/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl/202-2791581-2980656)

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by zeno
Beckett: :w2:

A Panda walks into a cafe. He orders a sandwich, eats it, then draws a gun and fires two shots in the air.

"Why?" asks the confused waiter, as the Panda makes towards the exit. The Panda produces a badly puntuated wildlife manual and tosses it over his shoulder.

"I'm a Panda," he says, at the door. "Look it up."

The waiter turns to the relevant entry and, sure enough, finds an explanation.

"Panda. Large black-and-white bear-like mammal, native to China. Eats, shoots and leaves."

From "Eats, Shoots & Leaves," :book: by Lynne Truss. I'm up to page 27. Its and it's has already been delineated. I forgot what she said.
"Its" is possessive; "it's" (with an apostrophe) means, "it is".
The worst error in the joke that informs the book title is that pandas aren't "bear-like"; they're related to raccoons. So, 10/10 for punctuation, 0/10 and see me for taxonomy.

[Ralph Wiggum]

Kimpatsu: :w2:

I'm not sure if I was excomunicated or not, but was unable to reload as zeno. Just as well. zeno was & is a bit pretentious for someone with a less then class average IQ. Ralph Wiggum much better represents whom I really am at heart. It may in the future prevent me, at times, from becoming too uppity. Then again, maybe not.

Kudos to me. I'm already up to page 34. On page 30 I learned an essential comma, essentially neglected most of the time, has earned a name all its own: Oxford. The only college I've ever been to, for a cheap haircut when times were tough, was barber college, so take that as an endorsement :cool: , whether Boomers or their Brand X Brats do or not.

Now for a quick tour to see how much of my golden prose has been lost to posterity forever.

[Kimpatsu]

Thank you for that response, Ralph, but where's Stumptown?

[Neutron Jack]

Originally posted by Kimpatsu
The worst error in the joke that informs the book title is that pandas aren't "bear-like"; they're related to raccoons. So, 10/10 for punctuation, 0/10 and see me for taxonomy. Certainly, they're bear-like. They look like bears; therefore, they're bear-like. They're not taxonomically bear-like; they're visually bear-like.

[phildonnia]

Originally posted by
A Panda walks into a cafe. He orders a sandwich, eats it, then draws a gun and fires two shots in the air.

I see this joke has been sanitized from the original Australian version, which included "roots" in the mammal's diet.

Anyway, back on the topic; I was taught to use this appalling construct for abbreviations at the end of the sentence:

A koala eats, roots, shoots, etc..

I was also taught always to put the final punctuation inside the quotes, however I've noticed of myself and other computer programmers that items in quotes are considered sacrosanct; thus:

Did he really say "A koala eats, roots, shoots, etc.."?

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Neutron Jack
Certainly, they're bear-like. They look like bears; therefore, they're bear-like. They're not taxonomically bear-like; they're visually bear-like.
But the book in question is supposed to be a wildlife book. Surely that wouldn't make taxonomic errors? I mean, I can understand a children's book using "bear-like", but not a wildlife book.

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by phildonnia
I was also taught always to put the final punctuation inside the quotes, however I've noticed of myself and other computer programmers that items in quotes are considered sacrosanct; thus:
Did he really say "A koala eats, roots, shoots, etc.."?
This is a terrible Americanism, which Lynn Truss examines in her book. See examples above for where the full stop goes, for clarity.

[Neutron Jack]

Originally posted by Kimpatsu
But the book in question is supposed to be a wildlife book. Surely that wouldn't make taxonomic errors?
The book isn't discussing taxonomy yet--it's just listing the most superficial aspects of the panda, such as its outward appearance and its eating habits. When the book says "Large black-and-white bear-like mammal", it's not discussing taxonomy as much as general appearance.

I have no doubt that the entry goes on to give the taxonomy with meticulous accuracy in subsequent paragraphs.

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Neutron Jack
The book isn't discussing taxonomy yet--it's just listing the most superficial aspects of the panda, such as its outward appearance and its eating habits. When the book says "Large black-and-white bear-like mammal", it's not discussing taxonomy as much as general appearance.

I have no doubt that the entry goes on to give the taxonomy with meticulous accuracy in subsequent paragraphs.
I have every doubt, particularly because the book doesn't actually exist. It's a work of fiction for the purpose of the joke.

[Jeff Corey]

Originally posted by Ralph Wiggum
...On page 30 I learned an essential comma, essentially neglected most of the time, has earned a name all its own: Oxford...
That's interesting. In American usage, the Oxford comma is considered incorrect, unless it would reduce confusion, as in, "These items are available in red and black, orange and black, and white and green.".

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Jeff Corey
That's interesting. In American usage, the Oxford comma is considered incorrect, unless it would reduce confusion, as in, "These items are available in red and black, orange and black, and white and green.".
That's strange; I thought the Colonials used the Oxford comma all the time, viz:
"The following are coming today: Jane, Jeff, Pete, Chris, and Mary", as compared to:
"The following are coming today: Jane, Jeff, Pete, Chris and Mary".
(And note: the full stop goes outside the quotes here, because the sentence in quotes is actually part of a longer sentence.) :p

[Jeff Corey]

Originally posted by Kimpatsu
That's strange; I thought the Colonials used the Oxford comma all the time, viz:
"The following are coming today: Jane, Jeff, Pete, Chris, and Mary", as compared to:
"The following are coming today: Jane, Jeff, Pete, Chris and Mary".

Acording to the APA style manual, the second is correct.

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Jeff Corey
Acording to the APA style manual, the second is correct.
Oh, good! Now we just have to correct your spelling, too... :p :D