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Foolmewunz
20th August 2011, 03:16 AM
This probably belongs in Forum Community, but I think it's probably more interesting as a comparison in this sub-forum than an OMG How Weird Is This thread there.

I'm the product of the US public schools - specifically, New Orleans in my earlier years. My grammar school (for non-Americans that's 5 years old to 11 y.o., inclusive - Kindergarten to 6th grade) was in the Tulane area and had great teachers from Tulane's teachers college - Newcomb. Plus, it was a different era - talking 1950s, here.

Segue to the 80s, and my daughter went through the public school system in NYC. I finessed (okay, cheated) her into the best grammar school in the city (PS 41 - The Greenwich Village School, as they styled themselves) and she worked her way into one of the elite high schools, Brooklyn Tech.

In both of those histories, thirty years apart, the overall impression (and admittedly we're talking the cream of the crop, not the dregs that were a part of many systems even in those years) was of a sort of casual attitude about the whole thing. Education was there for the asking. We took advantage of it. And what we made of ourselves in school and in our lives just sort of progressed from there. Of course, that's not my sole memory or impression, but I don't want to belabor the early comparisons so much as get to the topic.

Flash forward another thirty years. My son is going to be 3 in September, and we want him in a play group - just for a few hours an afternoon, so he learns to socialize and learns the things one learns from socializing - probably the most important thing for a child at this age. After checking out fifteen schools starting early last April (Sorry, over-subscribed!), I began to realize that Toto and I weren't in Kansas any longer. We finally found a fortuitous circumstance - a very good school opening a new branch within walking distance to us, and they were offering playgroups, or what I thought were playgroups.

Great school, great location, great staff... frightening price. They treat pre-schoolers like sixth graders. HK$ 5500 per month (USD 750), book fees(another HK$ 200/mo.), party fees (HK$100/mo.), and who knows what yet to come. But... I have to eat this for a year, then my company takes over tuition per the terms of our ex-pat contracts, so we can manage, albeit with a little belt-tightening. Oh, and uniforms... and such(see below), a lumpsum of about HK$1000.

Half-a-day, and they refer to it is K1 (that's because "you're starting so late"... yeah, the have a group for 2 year olds!!!). Game room, reading room, cafeteria, puzzle room, arts and crafts room. And the "curriculum", which when I was in pre-school would've been "eat paste, cry, jump around to music, wet self, eat more paste, go home", has them reading to three year olds from junior versions of the books they'll be using in the ensuing years. Weird. And sensible. But did I mention "weird".

So today's our orientation day.... Here's the list of his uniforms (and such).
Polo Shirt & Khaki shorts - Mon/Wed/Fri
Phys Ed uniform (white polo shirt and green shorts) - Tue Thu
White velcro closing sport shoes(and white socks) - to be kept in school
Jacket (windbreaker)
Cardigan
School bag(knapsack)
Library Bag (don't ask)
Party Bag
I.D. Pouch

And then comes the list of rules and regulations. In no particular order....
Temperature card to be returned every day with 8 a.m. temperature(kid's, not the weather, you ninnies) reading.
Special blue see-through bag/pouch for notes from school.
Homework bag (yes, HOMEWORK FOR A 3 YEAR OLD)
Child must wear his photo i.d. at all times.
Parent or guardian (or amah or auntie or whomever) must show up with the mate to said i.d. card to pick him up.
Parents homework - one book report every weekend - read with the child and fill in the parent side of the report, and have the child do the other. (He's 3 years old on Sept 29!)
Casual Dress Day - around the end of the month (see "Party Bag" and "Party Fees") - they have a party catered by Maxim's (top of the line bakery and legendary dim sum restaurant), "wear your best clothes unless it's a theme party, then you dress up per the theme".

And this was the handout/reading material before they sat us all down to go through things for an hour and a half. I have fourteen documents to still fill out, including the auto-payment form so my bank will transfer their money right on time every month. He has to go for a physical with the school pediatrician or his own - but must fill out all the forms that say he's, uh, well, 3 years old and not dying. (They have all of his vaccination records and such from our eleven previous interviews.)

Now, here's the interesting part..... This is Hong Kong. Check out the rankings of schools and we're second in the world, right behind Singapore. They take this stuff seriously, to say the least. All of the above, item by item, actually makes sense. It's just that all in one swell foop it's a bit much to take for an aging hippie like myself.

And they know their kids. You can believe I was listening very intently in all those eleven interviews and when the various teachers and admins were speaking today. They love the hell out of the children, they're all educated in the specific field (ECE) and seem to simply use all this bureaucratic stuff to create a proper environment. It's probably very sensible to get a little discipline into the kids in developing a "school routine", and even much more sensible to force the parents' involvement, but keep them at arm's length. They sounded and seemed very wise in that respect.

Oh, and the school year? 11 months. They get August off, and an extended Christmas and Easter/Spring break, plus a few extra days at Chinese New Year and for Chinese Festivals that your kids don't get, but they do not close down from May 31 to Sep 5 like we do in the US.

Part of me wanted to grab him and run for the door, and part of me was dissecting each little tidbit and saying, "Hmm, that's a good idea.... that makes sense.... that sounds like fun... " I'm sure we'll have cultures colliding at one point, but for the moment we're going into this with eyes open wide. Marcello loves it - spent the afternoon modeling his school polo shirt and grinning every time I asked him if he likes the school and teachers and kids. But - did I mention that he's not even three, yet? On the one hand, is all of this really necesary for this age? On the other - does it really hurt to have a solid infrastructure surrounding what for him will be three hours of yuks and giggles every day? It ain't exactly free-range child rearing, I'll tell ya!

And where are the mudpies? Doesn't anyone make mudpies any longer? I think they'd break out in hives at ths school if they saw some of the stuff we got into as pre-schoolers.

Still, though, I kept harkening back to my two direct experiences with US public education. There and then, we sort of just dropped the kids off and let the schools do their thing. Maybe that's where we went so woefully wrong?

(Oh, but I did pull over the young woman, an American, who's the Practical English teacher and tell her that if he comes home saying "ply" for "play" I'm going to sue them. The principal - 5'11" of very attractive Chinese lady - was raised in Sydney and slips into Aussie-isms in her speaking .... "We imphasize to them and would like you to imphasize to them at home, that school is ply...." Took me a couple of seconds to realize what IMphasize was, but "ply" for "play" was easy because she'd used it several times already and each time it was like nails on chalkboard. Poor kid's learning four languages already - English, Cantonese, Thai, Lao - and they're adding Mandarin.... No way I need him learning to speak Australian, too! :D )

lionking
20th August 2011, 03:36 AM
Wow, that's a HK 3 year old play group? I guess you can't deny the success of Asian education, and I believe we, at least in Australia, can learn a lot from places like Singapore in regard to vocational and tertiary education (and I'm angling for a placement in Singapore to study this ;)). But such a regimented (I hope that's not a harsh word) system for 3 year olds would not fly down here. The playgroups my kids went to were organized by a group of mothers, with local government support, and "play" and associated socialization was all that it was.

Don't get me wrong, if I were in HK, I would do exactly the same as you.

Please keep us posted on Marcello's progress. From what you have posted in other threads he seems a very bright boy and I'm sure he'll thrive.

Foolmewunz
20th August 2011, 03:58 AM
Thanks, LK - right now he's loving it (they've had five x 90 minute trials) and frankly I was a little worried that since he's never been apart from one or the other of us, we'd be dealing with serious separation anxiety. But today, I took hiim over (Mart, running on Thai time is always late) and he made a beeline for his favorite teacher and disappeared into one of the rooms with the other kids for about forty minutes. If mommie hadn't stuck her head up to look through the picture window of the playroom, he might've stayed on his own for longer, even.

But they've worked that out, too. From experience, they've even warned the group of parents that the ones who take to it like a fish to water in week one may figure out the overall plan by week two and realize that the end-of-the-session routine is different when it gets down to the full schedule, e.g. that mommie's not out there for several hours, just beyond that door. Many of them are fine for a week or two and then go Niagara Falls in week three. Again, though, they were pretty sharp about dealing with the question ahead of time. "It's your child, and it hurts, but turn away and I assure you, they'll be distracted within two minutes - we deal with this every year..."

But they didn't just schluff it off, either. If your child is making up reasons not to go to school (more than once in a blue moon) then they want us to bring the discussion to them. Maybe the child needs a toy or memento from home to get him/her over the rough patch, or a little more reinforcement from us in having him think of it as "ply" more than an obligation or task,... etc... Like I said, they were refreshingly aware of the territory they're staking out - something I never saw in the informal playgroups during my daughter's pre-school time. (Pretty much like you mentioned - a bunch of parents got together and the local community got them a room and some funds.)

Gord_in_Toronto
20th August 2011, 10:54 AM
Ha. Schools for Hong Kong elites and ex-pats.

My two grand kids (boy age 4 and boy age 7) are both in school in HK. The older one has been in The Canadian School for a couple of years now and the younger is switching from a Montessori school to the Canadian School this year.

Education is a very, very serious business in Hong Kong. It does seem to work and appears to do little harm to those that are capable. Reminds me of my schooling in England lo some 50 years ago; except for the homework thing which I did not experience until I entered grade 6 when I came to Canada.

The different educational practices are amusing. I was looking at the older one's multiplication text book and it is something like 50 pages with pictures and diagrams. It teaches association and groupings of numbers. My book (not that we had such a thing) was a page with the times tables from 2 to 12. At 4-and-a-half we just memorized the damn things by rote. I still have not forgotten what I was taught but had to work the association and groupings all by myself when I was 5. Neither of my Canadian educated children were educated in multiplication by rote (I would have to ask them how they taught as I forget, but I don't remember them singing the tables out) and consequently they have to thank the IPU for the invention of the electronic calculator.

Different times; different customs.

Have fun taking your kids to school. As you know, there is not much road space in HK and the traffic congestion around the schools at the start and end of day is pretty fierce. ;)

Foolmewunz
20th August 2011, 05:09 PM
Ha. Schools for Hong Kong elites and ex-pats.

Actually, this same thing, with variations is set-up for the local community with education in Cantonese. The fees may actually be the same, but the government provides vouchers to cover about half of the expense. The reason we chose an out-of-program school (that's all we were looking at) is that the Legislative Council stays out of the classrooms.


My two grand kids (boy age 4 and boy age 7) are both in school in HK. The older one has been in The Canadian School for a couple of years now and the younger is switching from a Montessori school to the Canadian School this year.
See? That's why I should've read my calendar more carefully back in the spring! :D Your brood could've probably saved me some time or at least reconfirmed the impressions I was developing - that finding a school for your kid was bordering on somewhere betweeen Sisyphean and search for holy grail. (Seriously, if we were staying, I'd probably be setting him up for entry to the Canadian school, but we're planning to be in Thailand within 3 years, so I'm mostly concerned that he gets a good grounding.)


Education is a very, very serious business in Hong Kong. It does seem to work and appears to do little harm to those that are capable. Reminds me of my schooling in England lo some 50 years ago; except for the homework thing which I did not experience until I entered grade 6 when I came to Canada.
It's definitely a business, but I have no problem with people making money at something they do well. My sons K1 group will have a teacher to kiddie ratio of 1:8. (They may change that when they see Marcello's energy levels. :p )
With qualified teacher salaries here, though, they're not making a fortune, I can assure you. They will have to run the school to a maximum to just break even, and that probably won't happen until the second semester this year. They only have the K1 and pre-schoolers set for a morning session because they didn't get enough enrollment to do two-a-day.


The different educational practices are amusing. I was looking at the older one's multiplication text book and it is something like 50 pages with pictures and diagrams. It teaches association and groupings of numbers. My book (not that we had such a thing) was a page with the times tables from 2 to 12. At 4-and-a-half we just memorized the damn things by rote. I still have not forgotten what I was taught but had to work the association and groupings all by myself when I was 5. Neither of my Canadian educated children were educated in multiplication by rote (I would have to ask them how they taught as I forget, but I don't remember them singing the tables out) and consequently they have to thank the IPU for the invention of the electronic calculator.

I'm concerned, also, that his actual schooling will be in Thailand later. Again, that's why I want him in a looser format here and away from the government driven programmed schools (either public or funded). The criticism of HK education (and there is a lot) is that it's far too compartmentalized and still emphasizes rote learning far too much. Cross-disciplinary studies become quite rare by the agest of 12-15, already. You're pretty well set as liberal arts or sciences by that point.


Different times; different customs.


Ramen, brother!


Have fun taking your kids to school. As you know, there is not much road space in HK and the traffic congestion around the schools at the start and end of day is pretty fierce. ;)
Well, we lucked out on this one. The school is really "neighborhood" - maybe half a km on foot - half of that can be walked within my own complex of buildings, and the other half consists of a flyover and elevated walkway. In short, not a street to cross and the entrance to his school is accessed by escalator. He won't be able to dawdle and look in the candy store window because there isn't one.
(Our complex, called Island Harbourview, is in the area now being referred to as "Olympic", named for the MTR station and the three connected shopping malls - Olympian 1, 2, and 3. By sometime next year I'll be able to walk, indoors, from here to Mong Kok. We moved out here to get the kid off ot the streets of Wan Chai and Causeway Bay where we were living when he was born.)
But, yeah, the city is unique in that we have two rush hours in the morning - from 7:30 to 8:00 is all the school kids, and the congestion in places like Aberdeen and Kowloon Tong where there are a good two dozen top schools, is extraordinary. The kids get into the building by 8:00 to 8:15, and the second rush hour starts for us humble commuters at that time.

andyandy
21st August 2011, 01:30 AM
Woah!

I nearly got a job teaching in HK - glad I didn't take it! :)

That sounds insane. Btw I'm currently teaching at an international school in Thailand - it's much more relaxed (well, it's run as a British school....) - when are you going to Thailand?

Foolmewunz
21st August 2011, 05:37 AM
Woah!

I nearly got a job teaching in HK - glad I didn't take it! :)

That sounds insane. Btw I'm currently teaching at an international school in Thailand - it's much more relaxed (well, it's run as a British school....) - when are you going to Thailand?


Any day, now..... Which is what I keep saying. I've got three years to go before I retire, but if the right opportunity for a business comes along I could take it earlier. I need to buy something so that I leave Marcello and Supamart something - I spent my first "fortune" taking caer of my mom for 25 years and "donated" my co-op in Manhattan to my daughter. Rather than living in a fan room on the beach for retirement, I'll be building up a small business for them so I know my son is taken care of. My current pension is being guarded over by the Gnomes of Zurich and has solidly returned 10/12% compounded so these last three years will be worth a considerable chunk of change, and of course the more you have the better buy-in you can make to start up a business. Less struggling at the start.

(Ironically, I missed an opportunity to buy an English school on Koh Samui by about a day - they wanted about double what I have available and I usually sort by price and missed it for a week until "Engilsh School leaped off the screen at me. I was talking to a couple of old friends who are TESOL vets about it whether it was worth taking in partners - to which they both responded, "Koh Samui? I'm in!" and the advert disappeared before I could respond. Sounded ideal. I'm TESOL certified and it had local contracts with businesses and hotels so it wasn't like a "Send your kiddies" storefront. Plus, I have some ideas on training seminars in my own field that I could've turned into an interesting sideline. Alas, someone beat me to the offer.)

If you're happy in Thailand, that's great. I love the country myself but a lot of people find it "too foreign" after a bit. My sons already speaking Thai and Lao(or more accurately "understanding Thai and Lao), and he has a katrillion cousins there so it's going to be home for him. He's already got his U.S. citizenship, passport and social security, so if he wants to go to the states when he's older, he can.

Hong Kong? The salaries are the attraction. A degreed (B.A. in education or ECE and TESOL certified) teacher can get packages here worth 60/70 thousand HK$. That sounds obscenely high (100 to 120K usd), but we have some of the highest rents in the world and 30% of that would be needed to find a decent place to live. Most teachers come for a few years and sock away their money and move on. 11 months - 8:30 to 4:00 is a pretty rough comparison to working in the USA. Plus, they do all their class prep and homework grading and such in their own time, like most teachers. I see them on the MTR at night working out of their backpacks - it's pretty hard to miss a teacher grading papers - that much hasn't changed.

Alt+F4
21st August 2011, 09:52 AM
(He's 3 years old on Sept 29!)

You had children 30 years apart? God bless! :)

andyandy
25th August 2011, 04:49 AM
Any day, now..... Which is what I keep saying. I've got three years to go before I retire, but if the right opportunity for a business comes along I could take it earlier. I need to buy something so that I leave Marcello and Supamart something - I spent my first "fortune" taking caer of my mom for 25 years and "donated" my co-op in Manhattan to my daughter. Rather than living in a fan room on the beach for retirement, I'll be building up a small business for them so I know my son is taken care of. My current pension is being guarded over by the Gnomes of Zurich and has solidly returned 10/12% compounded so these last three years will be worth a considerable chunk of change, and of course the more you have the better buy-in you can make to start up a business. Less struggling at the start.

(Ironically, I missed an opportunity to buy an English school on Koh Samui by about a day - they wanted about double what I have available and I usually sort by price and missed it for a week until "Engilsh School leaped off the screen at me. I was talking to a couple of old friends who are TESOL vets about it whether it was worth taking in partners - to which they both responded, "Koh Samui? I'm in!" and the advert disappeared before I could respond. Sounded ideal. I'm TESOL certified and it had local contracts with businesses and hotels so it wasn't like a "Send your kiddies" storefront. Plus, I have some ideas on training seminars in my own field that I could've turned into an interesting sideline. Alas, someone beat me to the offer.)

If you're happy in Thailand, that's great. I love the country myself but a lot of people find it "too foreign" after a bit. My sons already speaking Thai and Lao(or more accurately "understanding Thai and Lao), and he has a katrillion cousins there so it's going to be home for him. He's already got his U.S. citizenship, passport and social security, so if he wants to go to the states when he's older, he can.

Hong Kong? The salaries are the attraction. A degreed (B.A. in education or ECE and TESOL certified) teacher can get packages here worth 60/70 thousand HK$. That sounds obscenely high (100 to 120K usd), but we have some of the highest rents in the world and 30% of that would be needed to find a decent place to live. Most teachers come for a few years and sock away their money and move on. 11 months - 8:30 to 4:00 is a pretty rough comparison to working in the USA. Plus, they do all their class prep and homework grading and such in their own time, like most teachers. I see them on the MTR at night working out of their backpacks - it's pretty hard to miss a teacher grading papers - that much hasn't changed.

you're getting 10-12%? You must have some good gnomes :)

Yeah, HK seems a bit hard-core - not sure i could cope with the educational pressure cooker out there....think i'll stick with the more chilled out countries :D

Foolmewunz
16th September 2011, 08:53 PM
Okay, so the official start of school is Monday, but he's been attending 90 minutes a day for two weeks.

Someone talk this old hippy off the ledge, here! All my old laissez-faire attitudes about what they can and should learn at this age are being challenged every day.

He'll be 3 in 12 days. By my old standards, he should be playing and getting skinned knees and eating mud pies and writing on the walls. What's he doing? Well, this week's agenda....
Sentence Patterns
Reader - Book Week (they gave us an online subscription to Cambridge U's kids' program.
Vocabulary - Days of the Week
Alphabet/Phonics - Aa to Bb
Workbook - Writing the letters a and b (Writing!!!)
Putonghua (Mandarin) - Basic nouns (person, door, table, teacher, mommy, daddy)
Arts and Crafts - Aa words and Bb words - Caterpillar Drawing
Song and Movement - Caterpillar Song

AND THIS WAS A HOLIDAY WEEK! One day was an in-school party, and another was a holiday. The above is his 3 days schedule!

And he loves it! He's coming home and wants to write his letters and name the things that he was taught in school. Frankly, I'm astounded. They organize the whole of the day around the overall lesson plan, but when you're there it just looks like traditional pre-schooler anarchy. You have to see the whole picture to catch what they're doing.

Again, part of me wants to just go find him a rubber tire and a rope and swing him over the creek. (That, of course, would be the part of me that's full of crap because I never did that stuff as a kid, nor did my previous kid,... but you get my drift, I'm sure.)