OKC Bombing Coverup?

[Rouser2]

"A Secret Service document written shortly after the 1995 Oklahoma City bombing described security video footage of the attack and witness testimony that suggested Timothy McVeigh (news - web sites) may have had accomplices at the scene..."

"Lawyers for Nichols say they have never been given the security video, photo disks or internal investigative file referenced in the documents...."

"The trial judge has threatened to dismiss the death penalty case if evidence was withheld..."

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=542&u=/ap/20040419/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/mcveigh_video&printer=1

The "new" evidence comes as no surprise to serious students of the event but should come as a sobering wake-up call to those blindly accepted the original story put out by Federal prosecutors at the McVeigh and Nichols trials.

Other witnesses suggest that McVeigh's accomplices included a member of Iraqi Intellligence. Still other witnesses including an ATF informant suggest that the ATF itself had advance knowledge of the plot and made sure their people were not in the building on the day of the scheduled bombing. (See "The Secret Life of Bill Clinton" by Ambrose Evans-Pritchard).

-- Rouser

[Mr Manifesto]

Originally posted by Rouser2
Other witnesses suggest that McVeigh's accomplices included a member of Iraqi Intellligence. Still other witnesses including an ATF informant suggest that the ATF itself had advance knowledge of the plot and made sure their people were not in the building on the day of the scheduled bombing. (See "The Secret Life of Bill Clinton" by Ambrose Evans-Pritchard).

-- Rouser

http://instagiber.net/smiliesdotcom/contrib/edoom/spacecraft.gif

[The Don]

Originally posted by Rouser2
Other witnesses suggest that McVeigh's accomplices included a member of Iraqi Intellligence.
-- Rouser

Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha!

I suspect that you'll even be able to find someone who will claim that Elvis was part of the conspiracy

[Nigel]

I remember Phil Klass's "10 Ufological Principles", the first of which is (and I'm paraphrasing, since I don't have the source at hand), "When people are exposed to a brief, unexpected event, they are notoriously unreliable in reporting what they've seen." A building explosion like Okla City sure would qualify in my opinion.

On the other hand, maybe REO Speedwagon was in on it. :)

[shanek]

Guys, this is hardly woo-woo stuff. This is serious.

New documents obtained by AP show the Secret Service provided prosecutors other evidence that may not have been provided to defense lawyers, including a file showing the Secret Service agent who reconstructed crucial phone evidence against McVeigh was subjected to an internal affairs investigation and eventually cleared for her conduct in the case.

FBI officials say that file details allegations the agent wrongly collected grand jury-subpoenaed phone information about McVeigh's calls without FBI knowledge, and kept it for weeks while she produced analysis that helped the investigation.

It's also reported here:

http://www.azdailysun.com/non_sec/nav_includes/story.cfm?storyID=85825

Both articles have links to the document. Me, I'm startin' the 48-hour clock on this one.

[Mr Manifesto]

Originally posted by shanek
Guys, this is hardly woo-woo stuff. This is serious.



It's also reported here:

http://www.azdailysun.com/non_sec/nav_includes/story.cfm?storyID=85825

Both articles have links to the document. Me, I'm startin' the 48-hour clock on this one.

I don't doubt that McVeigh and the other dude weren't the only people involved in the OKC bombing. I just have to laugh when it's suggested Iraq had a hand in it, and that the ATF were tipped off but didn't do anything about it except to save their own butts.

The latter suggests a friendly relationship between TMcV and someone in the ATF. Considering that one of the motives for the bombing was Waco, you really can't help but see the lunacy in this.

[shemp]

Originally posted by The Don


Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha!

I suspect that you'll even be able to find someone who will claim that Elvis was part of the conspiracy

Prove that he wasn't!

[Luke T.]

Originally posted by Rouser2
Other witnesses suggest that McVeigh's accomplices included a member of Iraqi Intellligence. Still other witnesses including an ATF informant suggest that the ATF itself had advance knowledge of the plot and made sure their people were not in the building on the day of the scheduled bombing. (See "The Secret Life of Bill Clinton" by Ambrose Evans-Pritchard).

-- Rouser

"Other witnesses suggest..."


Still other witnesses suggest these Jewish ATF agents then went to work in the civilian sector as stockbrokers at the World Trade Center and had advance knowledge of the attack on 9/11 and made sure no Jews were in the WTC on the day of the scheduled bombing by remote controlled aircraft.

Examination of the Oklahoma City bombing Zapruder film shows the explosion actually came from the back and to the left of the Ryder truck, indicating Timothy McVeigh was just a patsy for a secret cabal of Mafioso, Fidel Castro, Martina Navratilova, Halliburton, and James Randi.

36 friends, acquaintances, and pen pals of people who know how to spell "Navratilova" without looking it up have died under mysterious circumstances since the OKC bombing. The odds of this occurring have been estimated by an infinite number of chimpanzees on a calculator to be 1 in 903984908.

A chainsmoking phlegmatic government official, known to this reporter only as "Sore Throat", has provided deep background information that it is not certain what President Clinton knew or when he knew it, but this reporter should "follow the hummers" to learn the truth.

[Suddenly]

Originally posted by Mr Manifesto


I don't doubt that McVeigh and the other dude weren't the only people involved in the OKC bombing. I just have to laugh when it's suggested Iraq had a hand in it, and that the ATF were tipped off but didn't do anything about it except to save their own butts.

The latter suggests a friendly relationship between TMcV and someone in the ATF. Considering that one of the motives for the bombing was Waco, you really can't help but see the lunacy in this.

I wonder how close I came to being a conspiracy theory footnote.

When the OK bombing occured, I was spending that year in Dayton, Ohio taking some classes at the University. That morning, my entire class was supposed to be at the Federal Building downtown for some purpose I can't clearly recall. I didn't go for medical purposes (does nursing a hangover count as medical purposes?).

The point of this was that I heard somewhere that the Dayton federal building was a considered alternate target for the bombing. If it had been, I would have likely been the only person in my class left alive.

I wonder what Rouser2 and his ilk would make of that? Something about West Virginians? I was (to my present shame) rather active in the Libertarian Party at the time as well. Then there is the large part of my family that just happens to have a pretty obviously jewish last name...

Maybe it would have been a Jewish-Libertarian-Redneck plot of some sort.

[richardm]

Originally posted by Suddenly

When the OK bombing occured, I was spending that year in Dayton, Ohio taking some classes at the University. That morning, my entire class was supposed to be at the Federal Building downtown for some purpose I can't clearly recall. I didn't go for medical purposes (does nursing a hangover count as medical purposes?).

The point of this was that I heard somewhere that the Dayton federal building was a considered alternate target for the bombing. If it had been, I would have likely been the only person in my class left alive.


Oh yes? So you just "Happened" to be spending a year in a different state, and just "happened" to have a class full of witnesses?

A cast-iron alibi like that is suspicious in itself!

Have you ever been to the Middle East? Hmm? Hmm? HMM?

[Mycroft]

I think the only thing covered up in this investigation is the bodies of the dead. Get a life.

[Regnad Kcin]

Wonderful, Luke!

[Rouser2]

Originally posted by Mr Manifesto


I don't doubt that McVeigh and the other dude weren't the only people involved in the OKC bombing. I just have to laugh when it's suggested Iraq had a hand in it, and that the ATF were tipped off but didn't do anything about it except to save their own butts.

The latter suggests a friendly relationship between TMcV and someone in the ATF. Considering that one of the motives for the bombing was Waco, you really can't help but see the lunacy in this.

The right hand of government is always aware of what the left is up to? If you and the rest of the sleep-walkers on this board bothered to actually check out the facts, it was the ATF informants who themselves who were attempting to provoke such attacks. No more "lunacy" to believe that than the conspiratorial burning of the Reichsteig. Or is that somehow more believeable??? Is it difficult to believe that government sponsored "sting" operations sometimes may go wrong? OKC cover-up Pooh-Poohers can Count Tom Jarrel and ABC's 20/20 in their contrived circle of "woo-wooers". He broke the original story of ATF'ers warned on their pagers, not to come to work that day due to a bomb threat. Sadly, save for a few FBI agents, no one else got the message.


-- Rouser

[Luceiia]

Originally posted by shanek
Guys, this is hardly woo-woo stuff. This is serious.





I agree. Here's an MSNBC article that looks at some very interesting things related to the bombing.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4371384/

Read it, please. Get acquainted with who is saying what and why...and then come here and make jokes about it if you wish.
=)


Luceiia

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Originally posted by Rouser2
"A Secret Service document written shortly after the 1995 Oklahoma City bombing described security video footage of the attack and witness testimony that suggested Timothy McVeigh (news - web sites) may have had accomplices at the scene..."

"Lawyers for Nichols say they have never been given the security video, photo disks or internal investigative file referenced in the documents...."

"The trial judge has threatened to dismiss the death penalty case if evidence was withheld..."

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=542&u=/ap/20040419/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/mcveigh_video&printer=1

The "new" evidence comes as no surprise to serious students of the event but should come as a sobering wake-up call to those blindly accepted the original story put out by Federal prosecutors at the McVeigh and Nichols trials.

Other witnesses suggest that McVeigh's accomplices included a member of Iraqi Intellligence. Still other witnesses including an ATF informant suggest that the ATF itself had advance knowledge of the plot and made sure their people were not in the building on the day of the scheduled bombing. (See "The Secret Life of Bill Clinton" by Ambrose Evans-Pritchard).

-- Rouser

:crazy: :dl:

Moron

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Oh, and I almost forgot:

Rouser2, on July 20, 1969, did a US astronaut set foot on the moon?

[NightG1]

Originally posted by The Central Scrutinizer
Oh, and I almost forgot:

Rouser2, on July 20, 1969, did a US astronaut set foot on the moon?
Now CS, haven't you ever seen Capricorn One? Sheesh. Everybody knows they did the whole thing on a movie set and they had to remove Armstrong's brain and replaced it with a zombie brain so he wouldn't tell and stuff. It was in all the papers.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Originally posted by NightG1

Now CS, haven't you ever seen Capricorn One? Sheesh. Everybody knows they did the whole thing on a movie set and they had to remove Armstrong's brain and replaced it with a zombie brain so he wouldn't tell and stuff. It was in all the papers.

I know you are joking, but Rouser2 really believes that. I'm serious.

[Regnad Kcin]

Originally posted by The Central Scrutinizer
I know you are joking, but Rouser2 really believes that. I'm serious. I've seen you make the accusation that Rouser2 does not believe the US landed men on the moon numerous times on these boards. However, I've never read a post of his to that effect. Of course, I could have missed it, so I performed a search on all open forums for "moon landing" with the user name "Rouser2." I got six hits, four of which have him dismissing the question as off-topic or irrelevant. In the other two (found here (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=1870229660&highlight=moon+landing#post1870229660) and here (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=1870334144&highlight=moon+landing#post1870334144)) he denies the allegation.

It seems you may be mistaken. So can you provide a quote of his (perhaps in a new thread so that we don't swing off-topic here) to back up your claim?

[Ranb]

Originally posted by Rouser2
Still other witnesses including an ATF informant suggest that the ATF itself had advance knowledge of the plot and made sure their people were not in the building on the day of the scheduled bombing. (See "The Secret Life of Bill Clinton" by Ambrose Evans-Pritchard).

-- Rouser

I do not really intend to look this info up myself, but does anyone know what kind of ATF office was in the federal building? I was required to contact the ATF in Hawaii back when I was an FFL, I found it was hard to actually get anyone on the phone. When I finally had the oportunity to talk to a live person, I was told that the field office is rarely occupied. The agents arrived in the morning, then departed soon after to conduct compliance inspections. Sometimes they would stop back during lunch, but usually they would just go to the office to check messages prior to going home.

It is really no surprise to me that the ATF office was empty when the bomb exploded. Was this ATF office a field office or something else?

Ranb

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Originally posted by Regnad Kcin
I've seen you make the accusation that Rouser2 does not believe the US landed men on the moon numerous times on these boards. However, I've never read a post of his to that effect. Of course, I could have missed it, so I performed a search on all open forums for "moon landing" with the user name "Rouser2." I got six hits, four of which have him dismissing the question as off-topic or irrelevant. In the other two (found here (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=1870229660&highlight=moon+landing#post1870229660) and here (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=1870334144&highlight=moon+landing#post1870334144)) he denies the allegation.

It seems you may be mistaken. So can you provide a quote of his (perhaps in a new thread so that we don't swing off-topic here) to back up your claim?

But it is rather interesting that he has NEVER directly answered the question. And in your first example, he dismisses 3 accusations instead of just the moon landing hoax. So when I stated he believed their were 27 shooters in Dealy Plaza, does he say he doesn't "believe that" meaning that he believes there were 26? Or 28?

[RandFan]

Originally posted by Suddenly
Maybe it would have been a Jewish-Libertarian-Redneck plot of some sort. I think being an attorney is reason enough to suspect you. Think about it.

[Rouser2]

Originally posted by Regnad Kcin
I've seen you make the accusation that Rouser2 does not believe the US landed men on the moon numerous times on these boards. However, I've never read a post of his to that effect. Of course, I could have missed it, so I performed a search on all open forums for "moon landing" with the user name "Rouser2." I got six hits, four of which have him dismissing the question as off-topic or irrelevant. In the other two (found here (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=1870229660&highlight=moon+landing#post1870229660) and here (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=1870334144&highlight=moon+landing#post1870334144)) he denies the allegation.

It seems you may be mistaken. So can you provide a quote of his (perhaps in a new thread so that we don't swing off-topic here) to back up your claim?

Comment: Anyone foolish enough to engage a certified know-nothing nitwit in conversation should only expect to get more nitwittery.

-- Rouser

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Questions for Rouser2:

1) On July 20, 1969, did a US astronaut set foot on the moon?

2) Name ONE person, still living today, who was involved in the assasination of JFK and the subsequent cover up of the crime. Surely of the hundreds invloved, you can name just one?

3) Name ONE person, still living today, who was involved in the OKC bombing and the subsequent cover up of the crime. And Terry Nichols doesn't count.

Prediction - Rouser2 will dodge all three questions (or more likely, ignore them), even though the third is directly related to this thread.

[Regnad Kcin]

Originally posted by The Central Scrutinizer
But it is rather interesting that he has NEVER directly answered the question. And in your first example, he dismisses 3 accusations instead of just the moon landing hoax. So when I stated he believed their were 27 shooters in Dealy Plaza, does he say he doesn't "believe that" meaning that he believes there were 26? Or 28? !!!

Wait a minute! Never mind JFK and Dealy Plaza. Are you telling me you don't have evidence to back up your contention that Rouser2 believes the moon landing was a hoax?

[Regnad Kcin]

Originally posted by Rouser2
Comment: Anyone foolish enough to engage a certified know-nothing nitwit in conversation should only expect to get more nitwittery.One might've expected a word of thanks for the effort to clear the waters a bit. Instead, I'm called "foolish." Ah well.

Back to lurking mode.

[peptoabysmal]

I vote for an unverifiable lead in the original investigation which is now being completely misinterpreted. Grassy knoll stuff.

[Rouser2]

Originally posted by Ranb [/i]


>>It is really no surprise to me that the ATF office was empty when the bomb exploded

From ABC's 20/20, Jan. 17, 1997


Husband of ATF Employee:
"I spotted an ATF officer in a jacket that signified that it was AFT personnel, and he just came out and told me that the ATF wasn't in the building that day. They had been tipped by their pagers not to come to work, which I was flabbergasted. You know, I didn't ask this guy this question. This is just what came out of his mouth."

Tom Jarriel: "Did he go further to explain why they were told not to come to work?"

Husband of ATF Employee: "He just -- they were tipped by their pagers of a bomb threat that morning."

Tom Jarriel: The ATF says their field agents were either in other buildings or had worked late the night before....they say a few ATF senior personnel and clerks were in the building... According to the ATF, agent-in-charge Alex McCAuley was in an elevator along with DEA agent David Schickendanz when the bomb went off. An award naming Schickendanz one of the national policemen of the year would describe the two men surviving a dramatic six-story fall in an elevator. But Duane James and Oscar Johnson say that just didn't happen. They were the elevator maintenance men who arrived 20 minutes after the explosion."

Duane James: Several of us entered and did a floor-by-floor search to see where the elevators were. And we inspected each elevator and made sure nobody was in."

Tom Jarriel: They made photographs and carefully documented their inspection. The pictures show all the safety cables and pulleys worked and kept the elevator from falling. One report has a couple of law enforcement officers getting on the ninth floor and the elevator falling six floors... Couuld that have happened?

Duane James: If you fell six floors and it was a free fall, it'd be like jumping out of a six story building. I'd ask them how long they were in the hospital and how lucky they were to survive. So, yeah, it's kind of humorous."


-- Rouser

[LTC8K6]

Why wouldn't Dubya connect OKC to middle eastern terrorists or Iraq proper if there was any evidence allowing him to do so? TWA800 as well.

I would think he'd connect them if it was at all possible to do so. It would help him with the war on terrorism and in Iraq, and with the elections. It would also make democrats look bad, since their admin would have entirely missed the connections.

[Luke T.]

Originally posted by shanek
Guys, this is hardly woo-woo stuff. This is serious.



It's also reported here:

http://www.azdailysun.com/non_sec/nav_includes/story.cfm?storyID=85825

Both articles have links to the document. Me, I'm startin' the 48-hour clock on this one.

It is woo-woo stuff when rouser2 tags this...

Other witnesses suggest that McVeigh's accomplices included a member of Iraqi Intellligence. Still other witnesses including an ATF informant suggest that the ATF itself had advance knowledge of the plot and made sure their people were not in the building on the day of the scheduled bombing. (See "The Secret Life of Bill Clinton" by Ambrose Evans-Pritchard).

...onto a legitimate news story.

That crap is not in the article you or he or Luceiia linked.

edited to add: And major news outlets are not exempt from printing woo-woo stuff.

[Rouser2]

Originally posted by LTC8K6 [/i]


>>Why wouldn't Dubya connect OKC to middle eastern terrorists or Iraq proper if there was any evidence allowing him to do so? TWA800 as well.

Presuming Dubya really knows anything at all about it, such a disclosure would betray government responsibility, at least in part, for the OKC bombing and the subsequent cover-up.


>>I would think he'd connect them if it was at all possible to do so. It would help him with the war on terrorism and in Iraq, and with the elections. It would also make democrats look bad, since their admin would have entirely missed the connections.

That also presumes that the democrats and the republicans are at odds over these kinds of government ineptitudes and really not co-ineptors if not co-pre-emptors of the Bill of Rights a la the Patriot Act and Bill Clinton's Terrorist legislation.

-- Rouser

[Rouser2]

Originally posted by Luke T. [/i]

>>It is woo-woo stuff when rouser2 tags this...

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Other witnesses suggest that McVeigh's accomplices included a member of Iraqi Intellligence. Still other witnesses including an ATF informant suggest that the ATF itself had advance knowledge of the plot and made sure their people were not in the building on the day of the scheduled bombing. (See "The Secret Life of Bill Clinton" by Ambrose Evans-Pritchard).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>>...onto a legitimate news story.

>>That crap is not in the article you or he or Luceiia linked.

>>edited to add: And major news outlets are not exempt from printing woo-woo stuff.


So it's not woo-woo stuff if consistent with the official government line, but it becomes "woo-woo" if contrary to the government line, eh? And that includes Tom Jarriel of ABC along with Ambrose Evans-Pritchard of the London Telegram????? Sounds to me like you and some others on this board have a whole lot of "woo-wooing" of your own to explain.

-- Rouser

[Rouser2]

Originally posted by Regnad Kcin [/i]


>>One might've expected a word of thanks for the effort to clear the waters a bit. Instead, I'm called "foolish." Ah well.


So here's a word of "thanks". But how hard is it to tell that when you are conversing with CS you are conversing with a certified nitwit?


-- Rouser

[Luke T.]

Originally posted by Rouser2
Originally posted by Ranb [/i]


>>It is really no surprise to me that the ATF office was empty when the bomb exploded

From ABC's 20/20, Jan. 17, 1997


Husband of ATF Employee:
"I spotted an ATF officer in a jacket that signified that it was AFT personnel, and he just came out and told me that the ATF wasn't in the building that day. They had been tipped by their pagers not to come to work, which I was flabbergasted. You know, I didn't ask this guy this question. This is just what came out of his mouth."

Tom Jarriel: "Did he go further to explain why they were told not to come to work?"

Husband of ATF Employee: "He just -- they were tipped by their pagers of a bomb threat that morning."

Tom Jarriel: The ATF says their field agents were either in other buildings or had worked late the night before....they say a few ATF senior personnel and clerks were in the building... According to the ATF, agent-in-charge Alex McCAuley was in an elevator along with DEA agent David Schickendanz when the bomb went off. An award naming Schickendanz one of the national policemen of the year would describe the two men surviving a dramatic six-story fall in an elevator. But Duane James and Oscar Johnson say that just didn't happen. They were the elevator maintenance men who arrived 20 minutes after the explosion."

Duane James: Several of us entered and did a floor-by-floor search to see where the elevators were. And we inspected each elevator and made sure nobody was in."

Tom Jarriel: They made photographs and carefully documented their inspection. The pictures show all the safety cables and pulleys worked and kept the elevator from falling. One report has a couple of law enforcement officers getting on the ninth floor and the elevator falling six floors... Couuld that have happened?

Duane James: If you fell six floors and it was a free fall, it'd be like jumping out of a six story building. I'd ask them how long they were in the hospital and how lucky they were to survive. So, yeah, it's kind of humorous."


-- Rouser

First, you need to place a link to this transcript.

Second, an elevator is not going to fall six stories before the built-in safety systems stop it from falling.

The safety systems are designed to lock the elevator against the guide rail almost immediately.

So if this Duane James was truly some kind of elevator expert and someone presented the above scenario to him, his first response would have been that fact. What exactly are his qualifications to speak on the matter?

[Rob Lister]

An award naming Schickendanz one of the national policemen of the year would describe the two men surviving a dramatic six-story fall in an elevator.

Emphisis mine. Would describe? Why not 'described'? My skeptometer isn't pegging but it's certainly in the red.

On edit, my skeptometer went back to cal-null. I've read enough awards to know that the actual truth of the matter means little to the text writer of an award.

Was he in an elevator? Probably.

Did the elevator scaffolding collapse during the explosion? Probably.

Did it 'freefall' six floors? Probably not.

[NightG1]

Originally posted by Rouser2
Originally posted by Luke T. [/i]

>>It is woo-woo stuff when rouser2 tags this...

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Other witnesses suggest that McVeigh's accomplices included a member of Iraqi Intellligence. Still other witnesses including an ATF informant suggest that the ATF itself had advance knowledge of the plot and made sure their people were not in the building on the day of the scheduled bombing. (See "The Secret Life of Bill Clinton" by Ambrose Evans-Pritchard).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>>...onto a legitimate news story.

>>That crap is not in the article you or he or Luceiia linked.

>>edited to add: And major news outlets are not exempt from printing woo-woo stuff.


So it's not woo-woo stuff if consistent with the official government line, but it becomes "woo-woo" if contrary to the government line, eh? And that includes Tom Jarriel of ABC along with Ambrose Evans-Pritchard of the London Telegram????? Sounds to me like you and some others on this board have a whole lot of "woo-wooing" of your own to explain.

-- Rouser

No. It's woo-woo stuff if the only evidence that supports it is conjecture or the "gosh, isn't it odd that..." kind of creative thinking or the ubiquitous "unnamed ATF source". All the physical evidence backs the government's "case" and is only opposed by people who have a vested interest in this 5 year-old conspiracy staying in the news. Tom Jarriel of ABC News and his British colleague are journalists and not authorities I would respect in this instance.

[Regnad Kcin]

Originally posted by Rouser2
So here's a word of "thanks".You're welcome.But how hard is it to tell that when you are conversing with CS you are conversing with a certified nitwit?I don't see how it matters much. I prefer to address content rather than the content provider -- even a broken clock being correct twice a day, and all that.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Originally posted by Rouser2
So here's a word of "thanks". But how hard is it to tell that when you are conversing with CS you are conversing with a certified nitwit?


But still sane enough to make you look like a dumbass.

Questions for Rouser2:

1) On July 20, 1969, did a US astronaut set foot on the moon?

2) Name ONE person, still living today, who was involved in the assasination of JFK and the subsequent cover up of the crime. Surely of the hundreds invloved, you can name just one?

3) Name ONE person, still living today, who was involved in the OKC bombing and the subsequent cover up of the crime. And Terry Nichols doesn't count.

Prediction - Rouser2 will dodge all three questions (or more likely, ignore them), even though the third is directly related to this thread.

Looks like I'm right on that last one.

[Regnad Kcin]

Central Scrutinizer:

You seem to want to persist with your insinuations, even though you haven't presented evidence to back them up. Nevertheless, even if you proved that Rouser2 somewhere stated that lime Jello is made from the collected and evaporated tears of the Indian elephant, how does that relate to the subject of this thread?

Let me put it another way: Are you suggesting that if a person believes one thing to be true that any other belief they might happen to have is therefore automatically faulty, if not wrong?

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by Regnad Kcin
Let me put it another way: Are you suggesting that if a person believes one thing to be true that any other belief they might happen to have is therefore automatically faulty, if not wrong?


That depends on the beliefs. If I know someone holds an incorrect belief about basketball, I don't consider that good reason to doubt his knowledge of tax law. Nobody is an expert on everything; all of us are ignorant in some areas.

On the other hand, if he demonstrates a belief that suggests he may be prone to paranoid conspiracy theories, maybe he believes that ordinary contrails left by passing jets may actually be chemtrails dispersed by the government to test chemical/biological warfare on an unsuspecting population; I will certainly pay less attention to similar theories he may propose that involve secret government cover-ups.

Further, if a person proclaims an incorrect belief, is corrected, is shown evidence that he is wrong, and still persists in arguing his incorrect belief, then we have reason to doubt his rationality.

An incorrect belief may only represent an error in knowledge, or it may demonstrate a faulty reasoning process.

[Rouser2]

Originally posted by Luke T. [/i]

>>First, you need to place a link to this transcript.

A "link"??? Every television transcript does not have a "link". I've provided source and date. If you wish to verify it, you can get the transcript from the Federal Document Clearing House, 1100 Mercantile Lane, Suite 119, Landover, MD 20785.

>>Second, an elevator is not going to fall six stories before the built-in safety systems stop it from falling.

>>The safety systems are designed to lock the elevator against the guide rail almost immediately.

>>So if this Duane James was truly some kind of elevator expert and someone presented the above scenario to him, his first response would have been that fact. What exactly are his qualifications to speak on the matter?

Only the elevator maintenance man, who arrived on the scene 20 minutes after the bomb blast. And elevators do crash; but none did in the Murrah Building. ABC took picutires and verified it all. Thus, in the ATF's attempt to show that one of their own really did not get the warning and was in fact injured was more evidence of just another big lie.

-- Rouser

[Rouser2]

Originally posted by NightG1 [/i]

>>No. It's woo-woo stuff if the only evidence that supports it is conjecture or the "gosh, isn't it odd that..." kind of creative thinking or the ubiquitous "unnamed ATF source".

The un-named source had a name and a face, but for obvious reasons wished to remain anonymous. Moroever, the claim is corroborated by the fact that no ATF were killed or injured, though the bomb tore thru their 9th floor offices.

>> All the physical evidence backs the government's "case"

What physcial evidence? The physical evidence in the building itself was immediatly destroyed and buried.

>>and is only opposed by people who have a vested interest in this 5 year-old conspiracy staying in the news.

Oh, bunk. That's certainly not what the Nichols Jury Foreperson said in her post verdict interview and she hardly had any vested interest, but soon thereafter was silenced due to death threats on her and family.

"I think there are other people out there and decisions were probably made very early on that Tim McVeigh and Terry Nichols were who they were looking for. And the same sort of resources were not used to try to find out who else might be involved....I think the government dropped the ball and if there are people who were very actively involved in this horrible crime, that it's an obligation to find them. And to bring them into the justice system. I think this was a horrible thing to have done, and I doubt very much that two people -- if Terry Nichols was even greatly involved, that two people would have been enough to be able to carry it
off.." -- Jury Foreperson Niki Deutchman, Denver Post, 12/14/97

http://www.aci.net/kalliste/niki.htm


>> Tom Jarriel of ABC News and his British colleague are journalists and not authorities I would respect in this instance.

No, they are disinterested, widely respected neutral reporters who you would instantly point to if they held to your own view.


-- Rouser

[Rouser2]

Originally posted by Regnad Kcin [/i]


>>even a broken clock being correct twice a day, and all that.


CS does not even have the twice a day integrity of a broken clock, his one-note "moon-walk" song, more like a broken record.


-- Rouser

[Rouser2]

Originally posted by Mycroft [/i]


>>Further, if a person proclaims an incorrect belief, is corrected, is shown evidence that he is wrong, and still persists in arguing his incorrect belief, then we have reason to doubt his rationality.

Excellent reasoning. And just what example could you, yourself , provide as to such an "incorrect belief" corrected? Post it right here: _______.


-- Rouser

[Luke T.]

Originally posted by Rouser2
Originally posted by Luke T. [/i]

>>First, you need to place a link to this transcript.

A "link"??? Every television transcript does not have a "link". I've provided source and date. If you wish to verify it, you can get the transcript from the Federal Document Clearing House, 1100 Mercantile Lane, Suite 119, Landover, MD 20785.

>>Second, an elevator is not going to fall six stories before the built-in safety systems stop it from falling.

>>The safety systems are designed to lock the elevator against the guide rail almost immediately.

>>So if this Duane James was truly some kind of elevator expert and someone presented the above scenario to him, his first response would have been that fact. What exactly are his qualifications to speak on the matter?

Only the elevator maintenance man, who arrived on the scene 20 minutes after the bomb blast. And elevators do crash; but none did in the Murrah Building. ABC took picutires and verified it all. Thus, in the ATF's attempt to show that one of their own really did not get the warning and was in fact injured was more evidence of just another big lie.

-- Rouser

I would like to see these ABC sources. Not some whacko conspiracy website/book stuff. If ABC covered it, they will have it online.

But here (http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3a3f38382e0c.htm) is a whacko conspiracy site that mentions Duane James and verifies what I said about the elevator and that the safety features would be his first response.

If the ATF thought they could get away with this farrago, they had underestimated the 23-year-old redhead and her affable stepfather. Curiosity piqued, the Wilburns tried their hand as amateur sleuths. With the help of a freelance reporter, John "J.D." Cash, Glenn contacted the Midwestern Elevator Company, the firm that had actually searched the elevators for survivors.

"The first thing we did was split up and check, then double check, each elevator for occupants," explained Duane James, one of the engineers. "We found that five of the six elevators were frozen between floors, and a sixth had stopped near floor level….We had to go in through the ceilings of the elevators to check for people….All were empty."

Agent Alex McCauley could not possibly have broken out before the team arrived, said James, "not unless he had a blowtorch with him….The doors were all frozen shut….It took several of our men over twelve hours just to get the one elevator opened."

None of the elevators had been in a free fall. "That’s pure fantasy. Modern elevators have counterbalances and can’t free fall unless you cut the cables, and none were. There are a series of backup safety switches that will lock an elevator in place if it increases in speed more than 10 percent."

So let's see. This somehow proves the ATF knew ahead of time the attack was going to take place. I sure would like to hear the twisted reasoning behind that conclusion.

"Say fellas, this building is going to be bombed tomorrow, let's all make sure we aren't around." And that is supposedly the extent of the plan.

The blast occurs, then an investigation begins.

"So tell me, where were you ATF guys when the blast hit?"

"Duhhhhhh. Ummmmm. Uhhhhh."

What masters of deception! What pre-planning! They somehow are too stupid to come up with a plausible explanation for their whereabouts or alibis even though they had foreknowledge, and yet are geniuses at covering it all up.

[NightG1]

The un-named source had a name and a face, but for obvious reasons wished to remain anonymous. Moroever, the claim is corroborated by the fact that no ATF were killed or injured, though the bomb tore thru their 9th floor offices.

So there is no evidence to support a conspiracy except from some unnamed deep throat mystery agent, wow. And a senior ATF administrator was killed in the blast. Check your facts.


What physcial evidence? The physical evidence in the building itself was immediatly destroyed and buried.

Then there is no evidence for a conspiracy then is there.

Oh, bunk. That's certainly not what the Nichols Jury Foreperson said in her post verdict interview and she hardly had any vested interest, but soon thereafter was silenced due to death threats on her and family.

Ah, yes. The mysterious death threat from some faceless government black agent. Oooohhhh. Real spooky. Sorry, I'm not impressed.

"I think there are other people out there and decisions were probably made very early on that Tim McVeigh and Terry Nichols were who they were looking for. And the same sort of resources were not used to try to find out who else might be involved....I think the government dropped the ball and if there are people who were very actively involved in this horrible crime, that it's an obligation to find them. And to bring them into the justice system. I think this was a horrible thing to have done, and I doubt very much that two people -- if Terry Nichols was even greatly involved, that two people would have been enough to be able to carry it
off.." -- Jury Foreperson Niki Deutchman, Denver Post, 12/14/97

The operative phrase in the above are the first two words "I think". And what exactly does your quote prove? That there were other people involved? So what?

No, they are disinterested, widely respected neutral reporters who you would instantly point to if they held to your own view.

They became interested once their involvement is added to their resume or their book was published. Personal fame and fortune are very powerful motivators and cause people to do all sorts of idiotic or unethical things. I am not saying these two men are unethical, just that they can not be relied upon as objective. If there was any incontroverable evidence of a larger conspiracy then people would be in jail.

[Rouser2]

Originally posted by Luke T.


I would like to see these ABC sources. Not some whacko conspiracy website/book stuff. If ABC covered it, they will have it online.

But here (http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3a3f38382e0c.htm) is a whacko conspiracy site that mentions Duane James and verifies what I said about the elevator and that the safety features would be his first response.



So let's see. This somehow proves the ATF knew ahead of time the attack was going to take place. I sure would like to hear the twisted reasoning behind that conclusion.

"Say fellas, this building is going to be bombed tomorrow, let's all make sure we aren't around." And that is supposedly the extent of the plan.

The blast occurs, then an investigation begins.

"So tell me, where were you ATF guys when the blast hit?"

"Duhhhhhh. Ummmmm. Uhhhhh."

What masters of deception! What pre-planning! They somehow are too stupid to come up with a plausible explanation for their whereabouts or alibis even though they had foreknowledge, and yet are geniuses at covering it all up.


Comment: And so, your point is......???


-- Rouser

[Mr Manifesto]

Originally posted by Rouser2



Comment: And so, your point is......???


-- Rouser

That if your little theory is correct, then Luke T was on the grassy knoll.

[Luke T.]

Originally posted by Mr Manifesto


That if your little theory is correct, then Luke T was on the grassy knoll.

I wasn't anywhere near the grassy knoll! I have an airtight alibi. Just ask my black helicopter copilot, Jimmy Hoffa.

[Rouser2]

Originally posted by NightG1 [/i]

>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The un-named source had a name and a face, but for obvious reasons wished to remain anonymous. Moroever, the claim is corroborated by the fact that no ATF were killed or injured, though the bomb tore thru their 9th floor offices.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>>So there is no evidence to support a conspiracy except from some unnamed deep throat mystery agent, wow.

The evidence of a wider conspiracy including foreknowledge by government agencies is legion. This report of ABC 20/20/s witness is just one indication that the ATF agents were warned, in advance. Wow, yourself.

>>And a senior ATF administrator was killed in the blast. Check your facts.


A low level secretary is not an ATF agent nor a "senior administrator. Nor would your un-sourced allegation refute the fact that no ATF agents were on the offical death lists.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What physcial evidence? The physical evidence in the building itself was immediatly destroyed and buried.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>>Then there is no evidence for a conspiracy then is there.

Physical evidence? Not from what was quickly buried by the Feds. But plenty of other evidence in the form of witnesses as well as published reports of FBI lab tampering of what evidence was retained.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Oh, bunk. That's certainly not what the Nichols Jury Foreperson said in her post verdict interview and she hardly had any vested interest, but soon thereafter was silenced due to death threats on her and family.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>>Ah, yes. The mysterious death threat from some faceless government black agent. Oooohhhh. Real spooky. Sorry, I'm not impressed.

No, you wouldn't be. But then you weren't the target.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"I think there are other people out there and decisions were probably made very early on that Tim McVeigh and Terry Nichols were who they were looking for. And the same sort of resources were not used to try to find out who else might be involved....I think the government dropped the ball and if there are people who were very actively involved in this horrible crime, that it's an obligation to find them. And to bring them into the justice system. I think this was a horrible thing to have done, and I doubt very much that two people -- if Terry Nichols was even greatly involved, that two people would have been enough to be able to carry it
off.." -- Jury Foreperson Niki Deutchman, Denver Post, 12/14/97

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>>The operative phrase in the above are the first two words "I think". And what exactly does your quote prove?

It proves that the previous statement made by some deaf, dumb and blind sleepwalker on this board, that only those with a "vested" interest believe there were more people involved, is patently false.

>>They became interested once their involvement is added to their resume or their book was published. Personal fame and fortune are very powerful motivators and cause people to do all sorts of idiotic or unethical things. I am not saying these two men are unethical, just that they can not be relied upon as objective. If there was any incontroverable evidence of a larger conspiracy then people would be in jail.

Perhaps the most ignorant statement of all. The only people who go to jail are those who are discovered and prosecuted, then found guilty by a judge or jury. All others remain at large, including a fella by the name of Osama bin Laden. But by your logic, since he is not in jail, he's no cirminal either, eh???? By the way, just what government school did you attend?


-- Rouser

[Rouser2]

Originally posted by Rouser2 [/i]

Originally posted by Luke T.
>>I would like to see these ABC sources. Not some whacko conspiracy website/book stuff. If ABC covered it, they will have it online.

Wacko conspiracy website? My quotes come directly from ABC as/per the Federal Document Clearing House. ABC does not keep program transcripts on their website.

As a matter of fact, I could easily provide you with an official transcript. And if I did, what would that prove to one determined to keep head and brain buried in sand??? I don't think you'd even want to see it. That is correct, isn't it? Course it is.

-- Rouser

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by Rouser2
Excellent reasoning. And just what example could you, yourself , provide as to such an "incorrect belief" corrected? Post it right here: _______.


I was only responding to Regnad Kcin's assertion that irrational beliefs on one subject do not take away from credibility on other subjects. In my opinion, it clearly depends on the subjects and the willingness of the person to review his own beliefs based upon new information.

I do, however, seem to remember a conversation involving you and some odd beliefs about the nature of our Federal Reserve monetary system. I forget what position you took.

[Rouser2]

Originally posted by Mycroft [/i]


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Rouser2
Excellent reasoning. And just what example could you, yourself , provide as to such an "incorrect belief" corrected? Post it right here: _______.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>>I was only responding to Regnad Kcin's assertion that irrational beliefs on one subject do not take away from credibility on other subjects. In my opinion, it clearly depends on the subjects and the willingness of the person to review his own beliefs based upon new information.

So your innuendo was baseless.


>>I do, however, seem to remember a conversation involving you and some odd beliefs about the nature of our Federal Reserve monetary system. I forget what position you took.

And now another one. A baseless innuendo. You say a certain belief was "odd" but you don't even remember what it was. Here's a suggestion. When making a post, try to have a POINT. It makes it so much more interesting!


-- Rouser

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by Rouser2
So your innuendo was baseless.

You misunderstand. It wasn't intended as innuendo. It wasn't directed at you at all.

Originally posted by Rouser2 And now another one. A baseless innuendo. You say a certain belief was "odd" but you don't even remember what it was. Here's a suggestion. When making a post, try to have a POINT. It makes it so much more interesting!


My point was to disagree with Regnad Kcin. If you have a problem with that, then I'd suggest a different hobby for you.

As for the other issue, frankly I don't even remember that it was you.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Originally posted by Mycroft


That depends on the beliefs. If I know someone holds an incorrect belief about basketball, I don't consider that good reason to doubt his knowledge of tax law. Nobody is an expert on everything; all of us are ignorant in some areas.

On the other hand, if he demonstrates a belief that suggests he may be prone to paranoid conspiracy theories, maybe he believes that ordinary contrails left by passing jets may actually be chemtrails dispersed by the government to test chemical/biological warfare on an unsuspecting population; I will certainly pay less attention to similar theories he may propose that involve secret government cover-ups.

Further, if a person proclaims an incorrect belief, is corrected, is shown evidence that he is wrong, and still persists in arguing his incorrect belief, then we have reason to doubt his rationality.

An incorrect belief may only represent an error in knowledge, or it may demonstrate a faulty reasoning process.

Well said. That is my answer too!!!

Rouser2 has consistantly shown he is a paranoid conspiracy believing idiot. As he is demonstrating again in this thread.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Originally posted by Rouser2
Originally posted by Regnad Kcin [/i]


>>even a broken clock being correct twice a day, and all that.


CS does not even have the twice a day integrity of a broken clock, his one-note "moon-walk" song, more like a broken record.


-- Rouser

Notice that you still haven't answered any of the questions.

Moron.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Originally posted by Mycroft

I do, however, seem to remember a conversation involving you and some odd beliefs about the nature of our Federal Reserve monetary system. I forget what position you took.

The delusional loony position.

[Regnad Kcin]

Originally posted by Mycroft
I was only responding to Regnad Kcin's assertion that irrational beliefs on one subject do not take away from credibility on other subjects. In my opinion, it clearly depends on the subjects and the willingness of the person to review his own beliefs based upon new information.It feels as if you and I are in agreement. Perhaps it's a matter of nuance.

In discussing Rouser2's assertion(s), we can verify and/or weigh the items he presents. These things are of primary concern, and independent of the messenger.

However, if he (or anyone) is speculating based on his interpretation or extrapolation of the objective criteria, then I agree it's open season.

[Regnad Kcin]

Originally posted by The Central Scrutinizer
Notice that you still haven't answered any of the questions.Yet as I demonstrated here (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=1870415873&#post1870415873), he certainly seems to have answered quite clearly (in regard to the moon landing, anyway). Twice.

I've asked you at least a couple of times in this thread to provide a quote to back up your contention:Rouser2 really believes that. I'm serious.You haven't responded to my request, so I'm asking again.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Originally posted by Regnad Kcin
Yet as I demonstrated here (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=1870415873&#post1870415873), he certainly seems to have answered quite clearly (in regard to the moon landing, anyway). Twice.

I've asked you at least a couple of times in this thread to provide a quote to back up your contention:You haven't responded to my request, so I'm asking again.

He admitted (in so many words) that it was a hoax. I just can't find it. Might have been in one of the threads that was pruned.

But he can clear the whole thing up right now, by answering my questions. But he won't. He's too stupid, quite frankly.

[Rouser2]

Originally posted by Regnad Kcin [/i]

>>Yet as I demonstrated, he certainly seems to have answered quite clearly (in regard to the moon landing, anyway). Twice.

>>I've asked you at least a couple of times in this thread to provide a quote to back up your contention:You haven't responded to my request, so I'm asking again.

You'll get an answer from CS when all hell freezes over. His allegations are his own invention. The whole purpose of mentally challenged types like CS is to disrupt rational discussion on a topic with off-topic lunacy.


-- Rouser

[NightG1]

Originally posted by Rouser2

The evidence of a wider conspiracy including foreknowledge by government agencies is legion. This report of ABC 20/20/s witness is just one indication that the ATF agents were warned, in advance. Wow, yourself.

Were is the transript of this interview? What is the name of this witness? Afraid of the boogyman? Wow again.


A low level secretary is not an ATF agent nor a "senior administrator. Nor would your un-sourced allegation refute the fact that no ATF agents were on the offical death lists.

From the Oklahoma City Bombing Grand Jury Report:

We are convinced that ATF employees Luke Franey, Valerie Rowden, Vernon Buster, James Staggs and Alex McCauley were in the building when it was destroyed. There was no credible evidence presented to us that leads us to believe the ATF had prior warning of the bombing.
Again Rouser, check your facts.

Physical evidence? Not from what was quickly buried by the Feds. But plenty of other evidence in the form of witnesses as well as published reports of FBI lab tampering of what evidence was retained.

Links please. And please don't resort to the "there was evidence until the Febs burned it" excuse. This is getting tiresome.

It proves that the previous statement made by some deaf, dumb and blind sleepwalker on this board, that only those with a "vested" interest believe there were more people involved, is patently false.

One thing that is persistently clear is that you have no interest is looking into the Murrah Fereral Build bombing with anything remotely approaching an objective search for what actually happened. You have made up your mind that the US government did something bad again and for reasons you have not made clear and that you will only accept evidence that fits your preconception. People have been asking you for some, any proof of the things you are saying and you repeatedly respond with either insults or the same tired re-post of quotes that are irrelevent. I never said I thought that McVeigh acted alone. All I asked was what difference does it make in proving a larger conspiracy especially one involving the United States government. Also, I never said only those with a vested interest believe there is a conspiracy. I only said that your two sources have a vested interest in this conspiracy staying in the news because it promotes their own involvement and/or books thay are publishing.

Perhaps the most ignorant statement of all. The only people who go to jail are those who are discovered and prosecuted, then found guilty by a judge or jury. All others remain at large, including a fella by the name of Osama bin Laden. But by your logic, since he is not in jail, he's no cirminal either, eh???? By the way, just what government school did you attend?

Strawman...again. Well OBL has not had his day in court has he? Not only that but he has already admitted to doing the deed. Got any tapes of mysterious deep throat agents confessing to calling those pagers? Anything else proving your conspiracy except people who are afraid to talk or evidence that has now been mysteriously destroyed with no proof it ever existed in the first place? Again Rouser, read the frigging Grand Jury Report.

[Bottle or the Gun]

Evidence that never existed? Witnesses intimdated? Like Watergate?

I think it naive not to believe that a multi-billion dollar machine full of greedy petty human beings won't for a minute hesitate to allow others to die to further their own ends, but I hope OKC wasn't a case of such a policy.

Like 911, I don't think there was a conspiracy to let it happen, just a lot of un-related or even obvious in hind-sight stuff that came to light afterwards that Monday-Morning QB's can point to.

I don' t think you can look at things like this as if if they are a conspiracy, you have to think of it more like a policy, that when applied has certain effects. For example: Raise interest rates, poor people get hurt. Red-line business insurance availibility for certain geographical areas and urban areas suffer more blight. Get involved in mid-east politics and German discos get bombed. Not a conspiracy, it is just what happens.

[Rouser2]

Originally posted by NightG1 [/i]


>>Originally posted by Rouser2

The evidence of a wider conspiracy including foreknowledge by government agencies is legion. This report of ABC 20/20/s witness is just one indication that the ATF agents were warned, in advance. Wow, yourself.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>>Were is the transript of this interview?

Why I have it right in my hands. Want a copy? What's it to you? and just what difference would it make? You're just as close-minded as you accuse others of being close-minded.

>> What is the name of this witness? Afraid of the boogyman? Wow again.

It' been awhile since I've gotten back into this topic. But the mystery "deep throat" witness has long since been identified. It just slipped my mind -- Bruce Shaw, and his witness corroborated by his wife. Wow, yourself.

-- Rouser

[Rouser2]

Originally posted by NightG1 [/i]


>>From the Oklahoma City Bombing Grand Jury Report:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

We are convinced that ATF employees Luke Franey, Valerie Rowden, Vernon Buster, James Staggs and Alex McCauley were in the building when it was destroyed. There was no credible evidence presented to us that leads us to believe the ATF had prior warning of the bombing.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>>Again Rouser, check your facts.


Grand jury reports are not facts, bub. What you have here a simple statement unsupported by any facts. The Grand Jury simply took the word of the individuals involved, without a shred of evidence. Luke Franey's claim, for example, has been disputed by other witnesses. Fact is. the bomb(s) tore through the 9th floor ATF offices, but no ATF appeared on the death list. Check your facts.

-- Rouser

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Originally posted by NightG1

Were is the transript of this interview? What is the name of this witness? Afraid of the boogyman? Wow again.


You'll notice that I asked Rouser to name JUST ONE of the people involved in this evil coverup. Just as I did for the JFK cover up. And the moon landing hoax. He keeps pushing all three conspiracies, and yet won't name ANY of the people involved so that we can make some arrests. I guess all these conspiracies come to him while he sits in his double wide, but somehow no names are ever attached. It's amazing how that works.

[Rouser2]

Originally posted by NightG1 [/i]

>>Anything else proving your conspiracy except people who are afraid to talk or evidence that has now been mysteriously destroyed with no proof it ever existed in the first place? Again Rouser, read the frigging Grand Jury Report.


Oh, I've got the "frigging" Grand Jury Report, alright. And it's pretty "friggin'. No need to go into factors of intimidation, the lack of a special counsel, and a Grand Jury judge who stated that the guy who was responbile for the Citizens Grand Jury paneling, State Rep. Charles Key should be himself indicted. No need to go there. Any person familiar with grand juries knows very well that it is controled by the prosecutors. And any 'ham sandwich" can be indicted. That being true, any criminal can be saved as well. But if you put all of your allegience and trust in Grand Juries then try to swallow this: The original Federal Grand Jury that indicted McVeigh, Nichols and Fortier also indicted "Persons Unknown"! Deal with it Sherlock.

-- Rouser

[Rouser2]

Originally posted by Bottle or the Gun [/i]

>>I think it naive not to believe that a multi-billion dollar machine full of greedy petty human beings won't for a minute hesitate to allow others to die to further their own ends, but I hope OKC wasn't a case of such a policy.

>>Like 911, I don't think there was a conspiracy to let it happen, just a lot of un-related or even obvious in hind-sight stuff that came to light afterwards that Monday-Morning QB's can point to.

As to OKC, there are other possiblities -- the most credible being a sting operation gone awry. Thus, the bombing could have occurred through bureaucratic bungling -- a failure to stop it when they could have stopped it. The conspircy part occurs in the cover-up. Plenty of motivation to cover-up a screw-up of that magnitude. Still, there is no excuse for agent provocateurs sent to encourage the mentally unstable to stop talking, and to start to take "action".

-- Rouser

[Rouser2]

Originally posted by NightG1]


>>quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Physical evidence? Not from what was quickly buried by the Feds. But plenty of other evidence in the form of witnesses as well as published reports of FBI lab tampering of what evidence was retained.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


>>Links please. And please don't resort to the "there was evidence until the Febs burned it" excuse. This is getting tiresome.


Links??? I'm "linking" all night long. You guys never link. Want a "link" to FBI evidence falsification? Got that one too.


March 22, 1997
Web posted at: 9:28 a.m. EDT
WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The Justice Department inspector general's office has determined that the FBI crime laboratory working on the Oklahoma City bombing case made "scientifically unsound" conclusions that were "biased in favor of the prosecution," The Los Angeles Times reported Saturday.

http://www.cnn.com/US/9703/22/okc.fbi.report/


And the beat goes on.


-- Rouser

[Rouser2]

Originally posted by NightG1 [/i]


>>Well OBL has not had his day in court has he?

No. And by your logic that means he's innocent as the pure driven snow.

>>Not only that but he has already admitted to doing the deed.

He's not in jail; thus, by your logic his admission is a lie.

>>Got any tapes of mysterious deep throat agents confessing to calling those pagers? Anything else proving your conspiracy except people who are afraid to talk or evidence that has now been mysteriously destroyed with no proof it ever existed in the first place? Again Rouser, read the frigging Grand Jury Report.


Which one? The first one indicted "Persons Unknown". The second one admitted in its dicta, that as to other persons involved, it really didn't know. But McVeigh's lawyer, Stephen Jones knows. He says McVeigh told him. The destroyed evidence is all that which was buried; the altered, forged evidence is right there in the Inspector General's report as previously cited. "friggin' Grand Jury Reports" to the contrary, notwithstanding.

-- Rouser

[Mr Manifesto]

:h1: :zzw:

[neofight]

originally posted by shanek
Guys, this is hardly woo-woo stuff. This is serious.

I agree, shanek. And Rouser is correct that "others unknown" were indicted along with McVeigh and Nichols in the Oklahoma City bombing.

The idea that McVeigh and Nichols were not alone in the planning of this atrocity is nothing new. In fact, there is a very compelling and comprehensive case made by investigative reporter, Jayna Davis, who has been chasing down the truth about the bombing of the Murrah Federal Building for nine years now.

At the time of the bombing, Jayna Davis was a reporter at KFOR-TV, a NBC affiliate in Oklahoma City, and she was one of the first to broadcast the story. She's been hunting down leads ever since, and I think that anyone who takes a look at her evidence, would in all fairness have to agree that a complete investigation is very much warranted.

I know there are conspiracy theories out the wazoo, but a skeptic shouldn't dismiss something like this out-of-hand when the evidence is so easily available for anyone to examine......neo

[Dancing David]

Rousaer the Rapist is back!

And what no Invisible Pink Unicorn's were killed either, that means they were tipped off.

And you think 20/20 is a news source, what a hoot!

Rouser2 may not be a rapist but he supports rape and thinks that it is something that should ne encouraged.

[Dancing David]

It would appear that a google search for ATF and Oklahoma City bombing will show many a conspiracy theory out there!

What Rouser2 is not telling you is that that most of them link the bombing tip to a woman named Carol Howe and that they were reported to be threats from a right wing neo nazi organization based at a camp called Elohim City!


However the woo leaders of misinformation are right up there on this one here is what the John Birch Society has to say:

It was Iraquis what Done IT! (http://www.thenewamerican.com/tna/2002/01-28-2002/vo18no02_okc.htm)

abundant evidence of Middle Eastern terrorist involvement in the 1995 Oklahoma City bombing and the possible connection of that event to the more recent 9-11 attacks. A recent example is Insight magazine. A December 3rd article by Kelly Patricia O’Meara reports that Timothy McVeigh’s convicted co-conspirator Terry Nichols "reportedly attended a meeting in the early 1990s on the predominantly Muslim island of Mindanao, a hotbed of fundamentalist activities, at which Ramzi Yousef, Abdul Hakim Murad and Wali Khan Amin Shah were present. The themes of the meeting were ‘bombing activities, providing firearms and ammunition, training in making and handling bombs.’ Yousef was the mastermind of the World Trade Center bombing in 1993; Murad and Shah were convicted in a 1996 conspiracy to blow up 12 U.S. jetliners."


You will note that the John Birch Society can name no source for the information! They just reference other Woo WOO materials and then quote Bill O'Riely the King of Liars. Well done John Birch, hang you heads in shame.


PS I checked on the Insight magazine, it is a sister publication to the washington Post and while there is an article for December 3, 2001 it does not mention any of that information. Nor does a search by the author or Terry McNichols, way to to go JBS!

[Rouser2]

Originally posted by Dancing David [/i]

>>Rousaer the Rapist is back!
And what no Invisible Pink Unicorn's were killed either, that means they were tipped off.
And you think 20/20 is a news source, what a hoot!
Rouser2 may not be a rapist but he supports rape and thinks that it is something that should ne encouraged.<<

Alas, there no end to the pinheaded nitwittery of the know-nothing slanderer. We've already commended one to slither back into his crevice. I commend you to do the same. No, I do not rape, nor support rape, nor endorse moon-landing hoaxes, but I do believe that brain-dead nitwits who come on these boards for the purpose of disrupting rational discussion with off-the-wall slander should be drawn and quartered. I commend you to slither away back to your slime-filled sewer.


-- Rouser

[Rouser2]

Originally posted by Dancing David [/i]

>>What Rouser2 is not telling you is that that most of them link the bombing tip to a woman named Carol Howe and that they were reported to be threats from a right wing neo nazi organization based at a camp called Elohim City!

Wow! So how long did it take you to find that out? But you don't believe it, eh??

>>However the woo leaders of misinformation are right up there on this one here is what the John Birch Society has to say:

>>It was Iraquis what Done IT!

>>You will note that the John Birch Society can name no source for the information! They just reference other Woo WOO materials and then quote Bill O'Riely the King of Liars. Well done John Birch, hang you heads in shame.
PS I checked on the Insight magazine, it is a sister publication to the washington Post and while there is an article for December 3, 2001 it does not mention any of that information. Nor does a search by the author or Terry McNichols, way to to go JBS!

So ABC's 20/20 is strictly "woo-woo" along with "woo-woo" reporter Tom Jarriel as is Insight Mag., the Washington Post and Bill O'Reilly, the king of liars? Sorry Dancing Dude, you win that prize.

Somehow you failed to notice the New American reference to a book by Dr. Laurie Mylroie, "The War Against America: Saddam Hussein and The World Trade Center Attacks" and the endorsement by former CIA head James Woosley -- but anyone who threatens your naive perceptions of the world must surely belong to the "woo-woo" crowd, eh?


-- Rouser

[Dancing David]

What I noticed Rouser2 is that the Insight article is not available, so either it is from an issue that is not available or they are citing an incorrect source.

And I believe that it said that Woolsey wrote the introduction.

I would still like to see some sort of source material for the reference to McNichols and the Middle eastern connection.

And yes I do consider a single report by 20/20 to be specious and , just like Ann Coulter, I consider O'reiley to an opinion/editorial, I would like to see more than bombast and some source material.


self reference


They just reference other Woo WOO materials and then quote Bill O'Riely the King of Liars. Well done John Birch, hang you heads in shame.


You will note that my refererence is not to the Insight but to the other references mentioned, I find that it is not good history or journalism to just say "so and so says this to be true", it would be helpful, if I could read the actual Insight article and to actualy know what the sources are.

Perhaps a FOIA filling would be appropriate, I figure that if Reno made some huge cover up then Ashcroft would like to help.

I have no doubt that there was a coverup, of the fcat that Tim McVeigh was a right wing nut case.

[Rouser2]

Originally posted by Dancing David [/i]

>>What I noticed Rouser2 is that the Insight article is not available, so either it is from an issue that is not available or they are citing an incorrect source.
And I believe that it said that Woolsey wrote the introduction.

Yes, and stated to the effect that "In that piece and other articles since Black Tuesday, Woolsey has expressed his support for her thesis and stated his belief that Hussein was behind both the 1993 and the 2001 attacks on the World Trade Center Towers."

Now then, in your "mind", that means Mr. Woolsey also belongs in the "woo-woo" crowd of paranoid conspiracy nuts along with Tom Jarreil, 20/20, Insight Mag and its parent, Washington Post, eh? ???? Yes or no? Just trying to figure out how simple-minded your stereo-typing gets???

-- Rouser
>>I would still like to see some sort of source material for the reference to McNichols and the Middle eastern connection.

As long as you search under the name "McNichols," you won't find anything.

>>And yes I do consider a single report by 20/20 to be specious

A single report that you don't agree with, but cannot refute. Excellent reasoning.

>>and , just like Ann Coulter, I consider O'reiley to an opinion/editorial, I would like to see more than bombast and some source material.

An opinionated commentor hardly makes the "world's greatest liar". What government school did you say you attended?

>> You will note that my refererence is not to the Insight but to the other references mentioned,

No, you wrote "Insight". Then proceeded to conclude it wasn't there because you couldn't find it.

>> it would be helpful, if I could read the actual Insight article and to actualy know what the sources are.

Ever hear of libraries?

>>Perhaps a FOIA filling would be appropriate, I figure that if Reno made some huge cover up then Ashcroft would like to help.

Which persumes that Ashcroft has any clue at all, much less the motivation to expose a government cover-up of a slip-up that cost 168 lives.

>>I have no doubt that there was a coverup, of the fcat that Tim McVeigh was a right wing nut case.

What "wing" were a part of McVeigh's political convictions hardly has anything whatsoever to do with the untold facts concerning the OKC bombing.

-- Rouser

[neofight]

originally posted by Dancing David
And I believe that it said that Woolsey wrote the introduction.

James Woolsey has also fully endorced the work of both Jayna Davis AND Laurie Mylroie, as evidenced by this quote which Jayna Davis has posted at the top, right-hand side of her webpage at JaynaDavis.com......

"When the full stories of these two incidents (1993 WTC Center bombing and 1995 Oklahoma City bombing) are finally told, those who permitted the investigations to stop short will owe big explanations to these two brave women (Middle East expert Laurie Mylroie and journalist Jayna Davis). And the nation will owe them a debt of gratitude."
- Former CIA Director James Woolsey, "The Iraq Connection" , Wall Street Journal, September 5, 2002
wrote the introduction.

originally posted by Dancing David
I would still like to see some sort of source material for the reference to McNichols and the Middle eastern connection.

That's "McVeigh" and/or "Nichols", and some good background info on this case can be found in the two articles located at this URL:

http://jaynadavis.com/story.html (http://)

.....as well as in the other one mentioned above, viz: "The Iraq Connection", written by Micah Morrison, which can be found at:

http://jaynadavis.com/story090502-wsj1.html (http://)

.......neo

[Dancing David]

From the JBS news site:


abundant evidence of Middle Eastern terrorist involvement in the 1995 Oklahoma City bombing



I would assume that abundant means like a lot and that is not what they provide in the article.

BTW The Insight web site does list an article by the author for December 3, but just not the one cited by the JBS mouthpiece.

I called o'Reiley "King of the Liars", which he is followed by Ann Coulter.

I have no doubt that there will be more than i will ever know in my lifetime about the OKC bombing, and I will read up on J. Davis evidence.

However there also seems to be very strong evidence that the OKC bombing was linked to a right wing grou or groups. And that isn't reorted by the JBS web site. And yes I consider a lot of the reporting on 20/20 specious and unsuppoted, I fing that to be true of about 80% of the infotainment field.

On the other hand: what motive would McVeigh have for not telling the truth while he faced execution:
McVeigh's chronology from Frontline (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/documents/mcveigh/)

I would think that he would have been telling about the Rashid connection for sure, just to get the heat off of the white supreme-ists.

[Dancing David]

jayna davis certainly reads better than the NewAmerican:

Jayna'a Webite for her book (http://www.jaynadavis.com/story.html)


For example, Nichols was a man of modest means. Yet he traveled frequently to the Philippines. Davis discovered that Nichols was there, in Cebu City in December 1994, at the same time as the convicted mastermind of the first World Trade Center attack, Ramzi Yousef.


I like that, she reports on what she knows and does not draw the conclusion that they must have met. that is better journalism.

I am unhappy with all the eye witness reports of certain events. And I am very unhappy to read that there is a hotel register under wraps.

There is a real rpoblem with eyewitness testimony unfortuantely, but if they could trace an alias for the alleged Iraqui agent to the hotel, that would be damning evidence.

[Rouser2]

Originally posted by Dancing David [/i]


>>I called o'Reiley "King of the Liars", which he is followed by Ann Coulter.

Well now you do indeed seem to have a penchant for calling people names -- especially derogatory names. You don't suppose that you do that as a substitute for thinking, now do you??? Obviously, as a student of the media and its credibility, you must be able to cite any number of examples to back up your ad hominems. O'Reilly, the King of liars? And just what lies has he told? Can you name just one? And ditto Miss Coulter. Just what has she "lied" about??? Could you proffer just one example???

>>I have no doubt that >there will be more than i will ever know in my lifetime about the OKC bombing,

Perhaps the most truthful statement you have ever made.

>>However there also seems to be very strong evidence that the OKC bombing was linked to a right wing grou or groups.


And just what does that have to do with anything other than the fact that there are still "Others Unknown" still at large and don't disparate groups with common enemies often work together?

>>And that isn't reorted by the JBS web site.

So you make a conclusion based on a single issue web page of the New American? What other issues have you checked?

>>And yes I consider a lot of the reporting on 20/20 specious and unsuppoted,

A lot, eh? Not just the one about the AFT??? Perhaps you could name just one instance of "specious" and "unsupported"????


>>I fing that to be true of about 80% of the infotainment field.


80% sure must be a lot of "infotainment" (sic). Then just what sources can anyone rely on? Pronouncements from Dancing David???

>>On the other hand: what motive would McVeigh have for not telling the truth while he faced execution

Perhaps he merely saw himself as the good soldier -- one who doesn't rat on his comrades. I suggest you read his lawyer's book "Others Unknown" by Stephen Jones.


-- Rouser

[Rouser2]

Originally posted by Dancing David [/i]


>>There is a real rpoblem with eyewitness testimony unfortuantely,

>>Is there any kind of evidence that does not pose any problem for you?


-- Rouser

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Originally posted by Dancing David
Rouser2 may not be a rapist but he supports rape and thinks that it is something that should ne encouraged.

Thank you for reminding us of that!!!

He also believes that the moon landing was a hoax, and that there were numerous shooters in Dealey Plaza.

I saw a feature on CBS Sunday Morning today about the 50th anniversary of the polio vaccine. It reminded me that Rouser2 also believes that vaccines are a goivernment conspiracy to kill people. It also reminded me of how stupid he is!!!

Let's keep laughing at him. It's fun!!!

[Dancing David]

Originally posted by Rouser2



Well now you do indeed seem to have a penchant for calling people names -- especially derogatory names. You don't suppose that you do that as a substitute for thinking, now do you???

I don't know as a nitwit and a panderer to the feminist revolution my judgement is off.

Obviously, as a student of the media and its credibility, you must be able to cite any number of examples to back up your ad hominems. O'Reilly, the King of liars? And just what lies has he told? Can you name just one? And ditto Miss Coulter. Just what has she "lied" about??? Could you proffer just one example???

As you say, if you would read you would know, I believe that there are authors who make a living pointing out O'Reiley and Ann Coulter's error, my favorite of AC's most recently was that Bill Clinton bombed Serbia to aid islamic terrorists.



Perhaps the most truthful statement you have ever made.

Well thats an infinity more than the truthful statements of Rouser2



And just what does that have to do with anything other than the fact that there are still "Others Unknown" still at large and don't disparate groups with common enemies often work together?

Personal belief that the right wing nut cases want us to forget that they bombed the Murrah building.



So you make a conclusion based on a single issue web page of the New American? What other issues have you checked?

Sorry, family history of thinking the JBS are a bunch of kooks, includes my right wing granpa and my liberal father.
They seemed to be engaging is sloppy journalism. Which will then get repeated as fact by other right wing kooks.


A lot, eh? Not just the one about the AFT??? Perhaps you could name just one instance of "specious" and "unsupported"????

Personal belief and judgement, irreducable qualia. 20/20 is not a very accurate source of information. There are plenty of outlets that judge the accuracy of the media. Of course you might find them to be leftists.


80% sure must be a lot of "infotainment" (sic). Then just what sources can anyone rely on? Pronouncements from Dancing David???

Sorry , if you don't know what info-tainment is then well, you shouln't ought to know.
It is certainly as good a source as the Pronouncements of Rouser2, not a funny however.


Perhaps he merely saw himself as the good soldier -- one who doesn't rat on his comrades. I suggest you read his lawyer's book "Others Unknown" by Stephen Jones.


That's right the same little soldier who swore to defend the USA and blew up it's citizens. Again I ask what motive would he have for not telling the truth? Especialy when it would have upset the apple cart of the government he was trying to overturn.


-- Rouser [/B]

[neofight]

originally posted by Dancing David
I have no doubt that there will be more than i will ever know in my lifetime about the OKC bombing, and I will read up on J. Davis evidence.

No doubt you are right about that. I've mainly been following the sometimes circumstantial, but very compelling case that's been presented by Jayna Davis of KFOR, who was the original lead investigator on the Middle Eastern angle of the Oklahoma City bombing.

A couple of years ago, in Philadelphia, my husband and I attended a presentation that she made at the Adams Mark Hotel, hosted by Michael Smerconish, a columnist for the Philadelphia Daily News, and radio talk-show host with "The Big Talker 1210AM" on WPHT, and I can only say that her evidence is more than credible, and her case is extremely convincing.

I know Smerconish arranged to go with Jayna Davis to Washington where they met with Sen. Arlen Specter in his office, and presented him with this same evidence. There are a lot of influential and serious people who have looked at her case and found her evidence to be very credible, and worthy of further investigation. Hopefully the link between Iraqi operatives and al Qaeda and the 1993 bombing of the WTC, and the Oklahoma City bombing will soon be confirmed.

Jayna Davis and Laurie Mylorie, however, are by no means the only individuals working on this story. There is an enormous amount of other investigative work out there as well, and these people are definitely not all right-wingnuts and whackjobs, as some posting here on this thread would have one believe.

Those who dismiss the Iraqi and al Qaeda complicity theory as "woo-woo" without researching it on their own are extremely ill-informed, and should stick to less serious subject matter, imo. They appear really ignorant otherwise.

originally posted by Dancing David
On the other hand: what motive would McVeigh have for not telling the truth while he faced execution:

As far as why McVeigh claimed he did it on his own? Who knows? Maybe the sick freak just didn't want to share the "glory", and wanted his place in history to be as prominent as possible.

According to J.M. Berger on INTELLWIRE.com:

"On April 19, 1995, an imprisoned Abdul Hakim Murad told his U.S. captors that he and Ramzi Yousef were responsible for the Oklahoma City bombing. He repeated the claim to the FBI the next day.35"

http://www.intelwire.com/nichols022004.html (http://)

......neo

edited to correct the spelling of Sen. Arlen Specter's name.

[Rouser2]

Originally posted by Dancing David [/i]

>>As you say, if you would read you would know, I believe that there are authors who make a living pointing out O'Reiley and Ann Coulter's error,


Indeed. But you, yourself haven't been able to point to any. Just make ridiculous, unsupported statements such as...

>> my favorite of AC's most recently was that Bill Clinton bombed Serbia to aid islamic terrorists.

Obviously, your un-linked, un-sourced statement is false. In the first place, Clinton did indeed make a decision to bomb Serbia; it did indeed aid the other side, some of whom were indeed terrorists. But the attribution to Clinton's motivation is not a "lie", but an "opinion". Do you understand the difference? Nonetheless, if Coulter ever said it, you haven't sourced it. Typical.

Rouser:
>>And just what does that have to do with anything other than the fact that there are still "Others Unknown" still at large and don't disparate groups with common enemies often work together?

>>Personal belief that the right wing nut cases want us to forget that they bombed the Murrah building.

That's a bunch of crap. If The New American is the source you claim wants to pin the rap only on others besides those those who you call "right wingers" you are again, completely and totally off base. They have had plenty of stories about those folks as well. Here's an except of just one. Note that I source my stuff, unlike your own made up fiction:

"...Carol Howe gave the government advance warning about the Oklahoma City bombing, as well as extensive documentation concerning suspected accomplices of McVeigh at "Elohim City," a rural enclave associated with the Aryan Nations, the Ku Klux Klan, and the White Aryan Resistance. Carol Howe provided testimony and evidence pointing to German neo-Nazi Andreas Strassmeir as a key suspect...."

http://www.thenewamerican.com/focus/okc/


Goodness, gracious? Here's The New American, a JBS published Mag attributing the OKC bombing to a bunch of right wing terrorists? Sorry to have burst your convenient stereotypical simple-minded view of the world and of The John Birch Society.

>>Sorry, family history of thinking the JBS are a bunch of kooks, includes my right wing granpa and my liberal father.

But you havn't yet been able to offer any examples of New American "kookdum". YOur grandpa is ancient history. Remember how racist the left wing democrat party was at one time???? Nah!

>>They seemed to be engaging is sloppy journalism. Which will then get repeated as fact by other right wing kooks.

Sloppy journalism? Another unsupported assertion.

Rouser:
>A lot, eh? Not just the one about the AFT??? Perhaps you could name just one instance of "specious" and "unsupported"????

>>Personal belief and judgement, irreducable qualia. 20/20 is not a very accurate source of information.

But no examples of that either. You know what I think? I think that you are an incredibly inaccurate source of information. And I've got examples of that all over this board.

-- Rouser

[Regnad Kcin]

Originally posted by The Central Scrutinizer on 4/25 at 10:41 AM
He also believes that the moon landing was a hoax...Originally posted by Rouser2 on 4/24 at 7:48 AM
No, I do not...endorse moon-landing hoaxes...Originally posted by The Central Scrutinizer
Let's keep laughing at him. It's fun!!! I don't mean to play Thread Cop, but, while it may be "fun" to ridicule, how does such behavior contribute to a discussion about what is certainly a serious allegation?

[neofight]

Originally posted by The Central Scrutinizer
Let's keep laughing at him. It's fun!!!

For the feeble-minded, perhaps, but if you are a serious poster, why act like a troll? It's not really very productive, and it's certainly not conducive to a serious discussion of the topic, is it?.....neo

[Dancing David]

Rouser2:
Look I did cite a source, I never thought you were Outcast but I thought you had read the "How 911 happened " thread
Ann Coulter Editorial (http://http://www.townhall.com/columnists/anncoulter/ac20040401.shtml
)

The only time Clinton decided to go to war with anyone in the vicinity of Muslim fanatics was in 1999 – when Clinton attacked Serbians who were fighting Islamic fanatics.


Ooops I used the word terrorist. She also insults the military under Carter.

As to your post:

Indeed. But you, yourself haven't been able to point to any. Just make ridiculous, unsupported statements such as...

>> my favorite of AC's most recently was that Bill Clinton bombed Serbia to aid islamic terrorists.


As noted she said fanatic not terorist. She also alleges that Clinton bombed Iraq because of Monica-gate, not the fact that Iraq painted out jets with radar.


Obviously, your un-linked, un-sourced statement is false. In the first place, Clinton did indeed make a decision to bomb Serbia; it did indeed aid the other side, some of whom were indeed terrorists. But the attribution to Clinton's motivation is not a "lie", but an "opinion". Do you understand the difference? Nonetheless, if Coulter ever said it, you haven't sourced it. Typical.

Yes that would be typical of you , now wouldn't it. ;)


DD
>>Personal belief that the right wing nut cases want us to forget that they bombed the Murrah building.


Rouser2
That's a bunch of crap. If The New American is the source you claim wants to pin the rap only on others besides those those who you call "right wingers" you are again, completely and totally off base. They have had plenty of stories about those folks as well. Here's an except of just one. Note that I source my stuff, unlike your own made up fiction:

"...Carol Howe gave the government advance warning about the Oklahoma City bombing, as well as extensive documentation concerning suspected accomplices of McVeigh at "Elohim City," a rural enclave associated with the Aryan Nations, the Ku Klux Klan, and the White Aryan Resistance. Carol Howe provided testimony and evidence pointing to German neo-Nazi Andreas Strassmeir as a key suspect...."

http://www.thenewamerican.com/focus/okc/


Goodness, gracious? Here's The New American, a JBS published Mag attributing the OKC bombing to a bunch of right wing terrorists? Sorry to have burst your convenient stereotypical simple-minded view of the world and of The John Birch Society.


I admitted it was a personal belief. You asked I answered, I don't need to cite resources for my own personal beliefs.


But you havn't yet been able to offer any examples of New American "kookdum". YOur grandpa is ancient history. Remember how racist the left wing democrat party was at one time???? Nah!


I suppose I could but it is better this way, I don't read then and they don't get trashed, the source they cited in the article I linked to was unsupported by the original source.

My grandfather would have been a Whig if he could have been, and was certainly never a democrat, although I believe he did vote for Truman, my grandmother never did.

I am well aware of the history of the democratic party, I am not a member.


Sloppy journalism? Another unsupported assertion.
I gave my reasons I felt that it was unsupported by the original source. You haven't cited the original to prove me wrong.


But no examples of that either. You know what I think? I think that you are an incredibly inaccurate source of information. And I've got examples of that all over this board.

Bluster away old bean, it does cheer me up. please show my inaccuracies, I will apologise and learn at the same time. The source is at your finger tips. My mirror can always use the polish.



I think that you are an incredibly inaccurate source of information.


This almost rates a thread in and of itself. Put your posts where your bluster is, my ego can always stand to be notched down! I await you showing me how I am "incredibly inaccurate', would that be wrong 10%? I would assume that such a bold statement would mean I am wrong over 50%

Lets see your stuff Rouser2.

[Dancing David]

Originally posted by neofight
Originally posted by The Central Scrutinizer


For the feeble-minded, perhaps, but if you are a serious poster, why act like a troll? It's not really very productive, and it's certainly not conducive to a serious discussion of the topic, is it?.....neo

That depends, I have only recently begun to debate Rouser2. He/she makes some really interesting statements on a wide variety of subjects. About as interesting as Ted Kennedy.

[Rouser2]

Originally posted by Dancing David [/i]


>>Rouser2:
Look I did cite a source, I never thought you were Outcast but I thought you had read the "How 911 happened " thread
Ann Coulter Editorial

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The only time Clinton decided to go to war with anyone in the vicinity of Muslim fanatics was in 1999 – when Clinton attacked Serbians who were fighting Islamic fanatics.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>>Ooops I used the word terrorist. She also insults the military under Carter.



Ooops?? You said she is a liar and gave this one unsourced example. There is no "lie" here. That leaves you with zero examples of your own selected media criticism. You called Coulter and O'Reilly a liar, and accused 20/20 of innacurrate journalism along with The New American. But as to examples, you've come up with zero. Does that make you a "liar"? Not necessarily. Perhaps just another poor, hapless victim.



quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sloppy journalism? Another unsupported assertion.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


>>I gave my reasons I felt that it was unsupported by the original source. You haven't cited the original to prove me wrong.

The original source for what? ATF pager warning? I most certainly did -- Bruce Shaw, corroborated by ATF employee Mrs. Bruce Shaw. Now where is the "sloppy journalism"???


-- Rouser

[NightG1]

Originally posted by Regnad Kcin
I don't mean to play Thread Cop, but, while it may be "fun" to ridicule, how does such behavior contribute to a discussion about what is certainly a serious allegation?
Nick:
The point is that this is an allegation that has no supporting evidence. I keep waiting for Rouser to show us conclusive proof that pagers were used to warn the ATF but all we get in return are limp excuses like "the government buried all the evidence". I wouldn't call it "serious", annoying maybe but not serious.

[Dancing David]

>>I gave my reasons I felt that it was unsupported by the original source. You haven't cited the original to prove me wrong.

The original source for what? ATF pager warning? I most certainly did -- Bruce Shaw, corroborated by ATF employee Mrs. Bruce Shaw. Now where is the "sloppy journalism"???


I think you are confused here, I claimed that the New American was citing the Insight article incorrectly. You still javen't shown other wise.

And if you wish to think that the only response of Bill Clinton's to Islamic fanatics was to bomb Serbia I can't change you mind.

On Bill O'Reilly, I believe that he claimed a show he had left had one to awards that it had not because he mistook the name of the award.

[Rouser2]

Originally posted by NightG1 [/i]


>>The point is that this is an allegation that has no supporting evidence. I keep waiting for Rouser to show us conclusive proof that pagers were used to warn the ATF but all we get in return are limp excuses like "the government buried all the evidence". I wouldn't call it "serious", annoying maybe but not serious.


Conclusive proof??? And just what could that possibly be? An ATF affidavit admitting to prior knowledge and pager warnings? An admission from the person who sent out the page but gave no warnings to anyone else -- not even the parents of the children in the daycare center?

The Citizens grand jury claimed two ATF agents were in the building at the time of the blast. Proof of that??? Their own word. In other words none, zero, natta.

Fact is, the ABC 20/20 story came from the mouth of Bruce Shaw, whose wife worked for the ATF and independently corroborated it. Fact is, the ninth floor ATF offices were devastated by the blast. Fact is, no ATF Agents showed up on the death list. Fact is, the ATF apparently concocted a story about its lead agent Macaully, wounded in a trapped elevator which fell six floors. Fact is ABC throughly checked out the story with the maintenance men from the Midwest Elevator Co. who were on the scene 20 minutes later and said there were none trapped and no elevators fell. Pictures were taken to verfify that fact and the strong implication is that the ATF made up the story. Fact is Agent Luke Franey who was named as the one other ATF agent in the building, injured by the blast was seen by the first police officer on the scene, walking around, uninjured with clean uniform and photographed as well. Besides the pager story, there is plently of other evidence of prior knowledge including warnings to the Fire Dept., and the bomb squad on the scene with dogs in the early morning hours plus ATF Informant Carol Howe's claim of prior knowledge Now I don't know what other kind of "conclusive proof" there could possibly be for an ATF cover-up of prior knowledge, but none are so blind as they who will not see.


-- Rouser

[Rouser2]

Originally posted by Dancing David [/i]

>>I think you are confused here, I claimed that the New American was citing the Insight article incorrectly. You still javen't shown other wise.

You claimed that the New American cited an Insight article incorrectly??? But you haven't even been able to cite the article yourself? And yet you challenge me to prove somthing about an article you, yourself can't even source ???? Sheese! That government school really did a job you! Poor hapless victim.!

>>And if you wish to think that the only response of Bill Clinton's to Islamic fanatics was to bomb Serbia I can't change you mind.

It's not what I think, but what you ascribe to Ann Coulter as a "lie". It is not a lie -- it is an opinion!!! Get it???

Nah!


>>On Bill O'Reilly, I believe that he claimed a show he had left had one to awards that it had not because he mistook the name of the award.

Yeah, right. He made a mistake. He mistook a Peabody Award for some other kind of award and he admitted his mistake. But a mistake is not a lie. Perhaps you need to get a dictionary and look up the words "Lie," "Opinion" and "mistake". Then report back.

Hopless.

-- Rouser