This video makes me believe that perhaps 9/11 was an inside job.

[wollclark]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EY3nj728WPY

I've recently started moving away from my old truther habits, as I've read a lot about the attacks without a clouded perception as I used too. But this video makes me believe it may have been an inside job after all.

How do you debunk this?

[Dumb All Over]

I've recently started moving away from my old truther habits, ....
No you haven't.

[wollclark]

No you haven't.

Oh, well, good to know you know me better than I know myself.

[sheeplesnshills]

debunk what? Verniage is a well know demo method and shows that the weight of the top part of a building can destroy the lower part. That video was posted by a debunker not a twoofer, by the way, to debunk the idea that the collapse should have stopped.

[Dumb All Over]

Oh, well, good to know you know me better than I know myself.
Indeed.

[Dumb All Over]

How do you debunk this?
By calling it a clouded perception, that's how.

[wollclark]

That video was posted by a debunker not a twoofer, by the way, to debunk the idea that the collapse should have stopped.

I know that, it just seems that this CD method is rather stealthily performed. Who's to say this isn't what the government has done?

[NutCracker]

I know that, it just seems that this CD method is rather stealthily performed. Who's to say this isn't what the government has done?

The burden of proof is on you.

[Dumb All Over]

I know that, it just seems that this CD method is rather stealthily performed. Who's to say this isn't what the government has done?
Something missing from the video you posted is a large plane smacking into the side of the building. Details.

[The Platypus]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EY3nj728WPY

I've recently started moving away from my old truther habits, as I've read a lot about the attacks without a clouded perception as I used too. But this video makes me believe it may have been an inside job after all.

How do you debunk this?



How does a youtube video make you believe it may have been an inside job after all?

It amazes me how easily you guys from some youtube video, to poof, "inside job!!!"...wow...

It's only youtube!!! Don't you realize that any joe shmoe can make a youtube video saying just about anything they want, putting whatever spin on things they want, true or not, and that's where these videos come from?

This is what you base your entire reality about 911 on, a youtube video, by some anonymous guy???

[carlitos]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EY3nj728WPY

I've recently started moving away from my old truther habits, as I've read a lot about the attacks without a clouded perception as I used too. But this video makes me believe it may have been an inside job after all.

How do you debunk this?

A video which demonstrates that the smaller top of a building can crush the larger bottom of the building with no explosives makes you think "inside job?" Can you please explain?

[Macgyver1968]

What's funny is it's one of AlienEntity's videos...I'm sure he'll be pleased with your conclusions.

[GlennB]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EY3nj728WPY

I've recently started moving away from my old truther habits, as I've read a lot about the attacks without a clouded perception as I used too. But this video makes me believe it may have been an inside job after all.

How do you debunk this?

You've totally missed the point, so watch the video again.

The whole point is that rather a little of the top section falling can lead to total collapse. Exactly the opposite of the usual Truther claim.

[The Platypus]

Upon seeing some of the replies here, i viewed the video, it's clearly not even a "truther" video, but one that supports reality...

And you see inside job from this. WOW... I hate to tell ya, but that's kooky behavior.

[Disbelief]

I know that, it just seems that this CD method is rather stealthily performed. Who's to say this isn't what the government has done?

Now, all you have to do is determine how much hydraulic fluid is required, how large the pumps (plural), how much force they have to exert, how much hosing is required, what happened to the hosing after the collapse, just to name a few.

[Gamolon]

I know that, it just seems that this CD method is rather stealthily performed. Who's to say this isn't what the government has done?

Ok.

This stuff is getting gold now. I love how the word "stealthily" was slipped in there to give the post a "conspiratorial" flavor.

Can you explain how one could accomplish setting up this procedure "stealthily" let alone completing it "stealthily"?

:boggled:

[Macgyver1968]

Now, all you have to do is determine how much hydraulic fluid is required, how large the pumps (plural), how much force they have to exert, how much hosing is required, what happened to the hosing after the collapse, just to name a few.

...and how they could be attached to the perimeter columns (where the collapse began) without anyone noticing...and how they survived the impact of the plane....

[Metullus]

Did Heiwa ever comment on this video? It would seem to have some bearing on his "challenge", no?

[Loss Leader]

I know that, it just seems that this CD method is rather stealthily performed. Who's to say this isn't what the government has done?


I've underlined the key word in your sentence.

Why do you think that the video shows a "rather stealthily performed" CD? All it show is buildings collapsing by the removal of a middle floor. There is no way to tell from the video what was done to the inside of the building. was anything removed? Were any supports pre-cut? Were any supports pre-scored? How long did the demo company take to prepare the building? What work was done on the floor to get it to collapse? What sounds could be heard before the collapse? How much of what explosive material did they use? What did the place smell like before collapse? What information did they need to ensure a uniform collapse? What was the chance that collapse would not be uniform? Would the demolition company agree that any of the 9/11 buindings appeared to collapse in the same manner as their controlled demo?

I have no idea why you would presume to know these answers well enough to draw conclusions about the World Trade Center.

[TexasJack]

High woo factor here folks. Next he will be saying he believes in FEMA Camps. (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=7315410#post7315410)

[Dave Rogers]

I know that, it just seems that this CD method is rather stealthily performed. Who's to say this isn't what the government has done?

Verinage, as far as I can see, involves three steps.

(1) Install diagonal hydraulic rams in one storey of the building, all pointing in the same direction in the horizontal plane.
(2) Remove elements that provide stiffness to the structure against shear in that direction - in other words, structural walls parallel to the plane of the hydraulic rams. The rams themselves are now the only elements providing significant resistance to shear.
(3) Actuate the hydraulic rams to produce a two-hinge shear failure of the prepared storey.

Apart from the fact that the hydraulic rams have to be very large and cumbersone pieces of equipment, which could not conceivably have been installed in the Twin Towers without a very large number of people being aware of it, it's also very clear that the side walls of the Twin Towers - which were the only elements which, by design, provided stiffness against shear - had not been removed, in full or partially, prior to the collapses.

Add to that the fact that there is no evidence of the remains of hydraulic rams being present in the rubble pile, and that videos of collapse initiation clearly show that the collapses were initiated by pulling inward of the perimeter columns rather than sideways buckling of a single storey, and there is not only no evidence that the Twin Towers were brought down by verinage demolition, but quite convincing evidence that they were not.

Dave

[Dave Rogers]

Did Heiwa ever comment on this video? It would seem to have some bearing on his "challenge", no?

As I recall, his response to it was to claim that it didn't exist.

Dave

[NoahFence]

I know that, it just seems that this CD method is rather stealthily performed. Who's to say this isn't what the government has done?

By "stealth" do you mean seen by hundreds and creating a massive cloud of dust?

Or

By "stealth" do you mean teams of workers preparing the building and using massive equipment in broad daylight?

[The Platypus]

High woo factor here folks. Next he will be saying he believes in FEMA Camps. (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=7315410#post7315410)

Whoever the gov't has watching me is going to be bored following me to Home Depot and the Bait & Tackle shop this afternoon, then i'm going fishing. :D

[alienentity]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EY3nj728WPY

I've recently started moving away from my old truther habits, as I've read a lot about the attacks without a clouded perception as I used too. But this video makes me believe it may have been an inside job after all.

How do you debunk this?

Seriously? Verinage just demonstrates a few things that truthers claimed were not possible

1) That a building could completely collapse without the use of explosives
2) That a relatively small upper portion of a building could completely destroy the portion below, as happened with the twin towers
3) That dust clouds and 'squibs' or puffs of material will be produced when a building collapses, whether or not explosives are used.

I hope you are sincere about moving away from your old habits. Many people have found their way out of the confusion of 9/11 Truth. I think they're better off for it, and so are we all.

ps MacGyver1968 - lately I've been seeing a lot of such comments 'how can you disprove CD by showing a CD?'. That's why we have to show them the Belem and Delft collapses as well...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A4aKQXJtBdE
A4aKQXJtBdE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5yt2am_Vyd8

5yt2am_Vyd8

I just found the footage of Delft from this angle - a few details emerge which are very interesting:

1) The fire was being fought with water hoses, perhaps damage would have been even worse without such efforts.
2) The building was reinforced concrete construction, so this demonstrates that even such a structure can fail in fire.

[dafydd]

The truthers really are clutching at straws now.

[aggle-rithm]

Did Heiwa ever comment on this video? It would seem to have some bearing on his "challenge", no?

He said that although his "axiom" applied universally to all structures, regardless of design, materials, or deterioration, verinage represents a special case that isn't relevant.

[bill smith]

Verinage, as far as I can see, involves three steps.

(1) Install diagonal hydraulic rams in one storey of the building, all pointing in the same direction in the horizontal plane.
(2) Remove elements that provide stiffness to the structure against shear in that direction - in other words, structural walls parallel to the plane of the hydraulic rams. The rams themselves are now the only elements providing significant resistance to shear.
(3) Actuate the hydraulic rams to produce a two-hinge shear failure of the prepared storey.

Apart from the fact that the hydraulic rams have to be very large and cumbersone pieces of equipment, which could not conceivably have been installed in the Twin Towers without a very large number of people being aware of it, it's also very clear that the side walls of the Twin Towers - which were the only elements which, by design, provided stiffness against shear - had not been removed, in full or partially, prior to the collapses.

Add to that the fact that there is no evidence of the remains of hydraulic rams being present in the rubble pile, and that videos of collapse initiation clearly show that the collapses were initiated by pulling inward of the perimeter columns rather than sideways buckling of a single storey, and there is not only no evidence that the Twin Towers were brought down by verinage demolition, but quite convincing evidence that they were not.

Dave

Nah, it didn't happen by verinage or any other way than covert controlled demolition. The top piece was only loose rubble as you can see in the video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVRPBPz-Gz8&NR=1

[Edx]

I know that, it just seems that this CD method is rather stealthily performed. Who's to say this isn't what the government has done?

How would they have been able to set up the building to use Verinage?

if you accept fire weakens steel, if you accept fire can cause steel framed buildings to collapse, if you accept that a pancake collapse can happen, then why doesnt collapse from fire make sence to you?

While not suggesting explosives were used to bring down the towers is more sensible, its still bloody nuts.

[sheeplesnshills]

Nah, it didn't happen by verinage or any other way than covert controlled demolition. The top piece was only loose rubble as you can see in the video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVRPBPz-Gz8&NR=1

which as we all knows weighs nothing and couldn't knock anything down :rolleyes:

[Ron_Tomkins]

No further signs of the OP showing up again to address the point. Do you think he will

1) Post a short entry accepting that he didn't really give much (if any) thought to the situation?
2) Start replying to some posts by trying to save his position
3) Disappear

I'm voting 2 or 3 (leaning more on 3)

[Edx]

Did Heiwa ever comment on this video? It would seem to have some bearing on his "challenge", no?

No, Heiwa claims they weaken the lowers floors. He presents no evidence for this of course and ignores the patent which shows they do not.

[Gamolon]

Nah, it didn't happen by verinage or any other way than covert controlled demolition. The top piece was only loose rubble as you can see in the video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVRPBPz-Gz8&NR=1

Loose rubble...

:boggled:

Here we go again. A truther playing word games to try and sway the public... Trying to downplay what was actually IN that "loose rubble" Bill? Can you explain how steel box beams, elevator motors, electrical panels, floor trusses, exterior perimeter panels, etc. equals "loose rubble"?

Just curious.

[Metullus]

As I recall, his response to it was to claim that it didn't exist.

Dave

He said that although his "axiom" applied universally to all structures, regardless of design, materials, or deterioration, verinage represents a special case that isn't relevant.

No, Heiwa claims they weaken the lowers floors. He presents no evidence for this of course and ignores the patent which shows they do not.At least he is consistent...

Right?

[Marokkaan]

Seriously? Verinage just demonstrates a few things that truthers claimed were not possible

1) That a building could completely collapse without the use of explosives
2) That a relatively small upper portion of a building could completely destroy the portion below, as happened with the twin towers
3) That dust clouds and 'squibs' or puffs of material will be produced when a building collapses, whether or not explosives are used.

I hope you are sincere about moving away from your old habits. Many people have found their way out of the confusion of 9/11 Truth. I think they're better off for it, and so are we all.

ps MacGyver1968 - lately I've been seeing a lot of such comments 'how can you disprove CD by showing a CD?'. That's why we have to show them the Belem and Delft collapses as well...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A4aKQXJtBdE
A4aKQXJtBdE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5yt2am_Vyd8

5yt2am_Vyd8

I just found the footage of Delft from this angle - a few details emerge which are very interesting:

1) The fire was being fought with water hoses, perhaps damage would have been even worse without such efforts.
2) The building was reinforced concrete construction, so this demonstrates that even such a structure can fail in fire.

Thanks for showing proof wtc 7 is controlled demolition.

Count the seconds of the tu delft collapse, and notice the assymetrical collapse.

And owyeah count also the stories :rolleyes:

[beachnut]

Thanks for showing proof wtc 7 is controlled demolition.

Count the seconds of the tu delft collapse, and notice the assymetrical collapse.

And owyeah count also the stories :rolleyes:

Please explain with math how it proves it. Can you do it? no

Count what? Please make a table explaining your seconds issue. Can you do that? no

owyeah, is the summation of your evidence to support your claims. Where is your Pulitzer Prize?

[Quad4_72]

Thanks for showing proof wtc 7 is controlled demolition.

Count the seconds of the tu delft collapse, and notice the assymetrical collapse.

And owyeah count also the stories :rolleyes:

You twoofers have not gotten much smarter over the years have you?

[16.5]

Thanks for showing proof wtc 7 is controlled demolition.

Count the seconds of the tu delft collapse, and notice the assymetrical collapse.

And owyeah count also the stories :rolleyes:

hilarious! wtc7 looks nothing like that.

Let me guess, you've never seen the actual WTC7 collapse have you, where the East Penthouse collapsed long before the remainder of the building? You just watch the lying truther version.

lulz That could not have happened in a verinage demolition. Hilarious! I love truthers!

[IdiotWhacker]

I know that, it just seems that this CD method is rather stealthily performed. Who's to say this isn't what the government has done? if it was a thermite demolition you would need a huge quantity of it to collapse as the way it did + adding that how do you hide that high amount in the building from people.

Secondly combining the thermite to explosive CD theory, it would have to set up for months prior to the collapse. Weeks does not count for a building that is 110 stories

third if the CD did explode in the basement Willie and others would have died it does not matter if Willie Rodriguez heard it he would have been engulfed in flames than tell a story and live. A explosive combined with termite would be insufficient because there is a chance that it would not react to the explosive.

The video that is posted leave us in the dark as it clearly does not reference the building being demolished plus those buildings are not the same exact height as WTC was and thirdly there is no resemblance of that in WTC buildings.

[Sam.I.Am]

This video makes me believe that perhaps the pants that I am wearing makes my butt look fat.

XkMWdI2IKiw

WARNING, not for the squeamish. You have been warned, but I think that it is just as relevant as the op's video is to truthers CD claims.

[wollclark]

if it was a thermite demolition you would need a huge quantity of it to collapse...

When did I say thermite?

Anyway, I tend to be reactionary. I've gotten so used to most truther claims sounding ridiculous lately, this seemingly stealthy CD bothered me. I thought that maybe the truth movement wasn't as ridiculous as they were starting to seem. I'm not sure I understand this demolition that well but I'm pretty sure they'd have to do something specifically to the floors the planes hit. I doubt the planes would get the aims perfectly if this was an inside job.

[Björn Toulouse]

Ok.

This stuff is getting gold now. I love how the word "stealthily" was slipped in there to give the post a "conspiratorial" flavor.......


Yeah, I think I'm gonna hate these next 2 weeks surrounding the 10th anniversary. It's gonna be like a prolonged Halloween, all the spooks and clowns popping out.

[Horatius]

I'm not sure I understand this demolition that well but I'm pretty sure they'd have to do something specifically to the floors the planes hit. I doubt the planes would get the aims perfectly if this was an inside job.



There's a patent in Europe for this technique (http://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=0&adjacent=true&locale=en_gb&FT=D&date=20010314&CC=EP&NR=1082505A1&KC=A1).

You can get the full French text of the patent at that site, and run it through Google Translate to get an idea as to what's actually involved. I think you'll agree it's just as unlikely as any other type of CD in the case of the WTC.


ETA: There are also patent applications for later improvements in the basic concept. (http://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?CC=WO&NR=9845551A1&KC=A1&FT=D&date=19981015&DB=EPODOC&locale=en_GB)

[sheeplesnshills]

Yeah, I think I'm gonna hate these next 2 weeks surrounding the 10th anniversary. It's gonna be like a prolonged Halloween, all the spooks and clowns popping out.

More like Zombies......now if we could just find the twoofer equivalent of a head shot.....:cool:

[Gamolon]

I've gotten so used to most truther claims sounding ridiculous lately, this seemingly stealthy CD bothered me.

What characteristics of this type is demolition would justify calling it "stealthy"?

Just curious.

[alienentity]

More like Zombies......now if we could just find the twoofer equivalent of a head shot.....:cool:

9/11 Truth, as I've opined b4, is a classic 'Zombie Doctrine' - you can kill it with facts, but it just keeps coming back!

Term borrowed from NYTimes' Paul Krugman.

[Oz1976]

I know that, it just seems that this CD method is rather stealthily performed. Who's to say this isn't what the government has done?

The workers in the twin towers might have noticed, ya know, these big hydraulic systems that are used in that technique. You should probably clear that mind some more and read up on the technique before saying it actually supports the inside job nonsense, when it doesn't.

[Oz1976]

This video makes me believe that perhaps the pants that I am wearing makes my butt look fat.

XkMWdI2IKiw

WARNING, not for the squeamish. You have been warned, but I think that it is just as relevant as the op's video is to truthers CD claims.

Ugh...sucha bastardization of Europe's greatest hit...that was painful.

[TheBigKahuna]

Verinage, as far as I can see, involves three steps.

(1) Install diagonal hydraulic rams in one storey of the building, all pointing in the same direction in the horizontal plane.
(2) Remove elements that provide stiffness to the structure against shear in that direction - in other words, structural walls parallel to the plane of the hydraulic rams. The rams themselves are now the only elements providing significant resistance to shear.
(3) Actuate the hydraulic rams to produce a two-hinge shear failure of the prepared storey.

Apart from the fact that the hydraulic rams have to be very large and cumbersone pieces of equipment, which could not conceivably have been installed in the Twin Towers without a very large number of people being aware of it, it's also very clear that the side walls of the Twin Towers - which were the only elements which, by design, provided stiffness against shear - had not been removed, in full or partially, prior to the collapses.

Add to that the fact that there is no evidence of the remains of hydraulic rams being present in the rubble pile, and that videos of collapse initiation clearly show that the collapses were initiated by pulling inward of the perimeter columns rather than sideways buckling of a single storey, and there is not only no evidence that the Twin Towers were brought down by verinage demolition, but quite convincing evidence that they were not.

Dave

Got it, Dave. Obviously, the hydraulic ram is composed of super duper nano therm*te, so it can self destruct like a Mission Impossible assignment cassette. :cool: