Skepticism vs Faith?

[tobiasosir]

Hello!

I've been lurking here for a while, posted a few times, but I'm an avid listener of Brian's podcast. However--and without going into a long and detailed backstory--it has put me into an interesting position.Briefly, I've begun to question a lot of spiritual--though not exactly religious--ideas I've held for some time, and which have basically molded me into the person I am today. Where is the balance?

I know this is a huge question, so here's a specific point as an example.

Recently, I've become interested in a practice of Chinese Traditional Medicine known as Qi Gong. It involves manipulating, cultivating, and rejuvenating the "energy" (or Qi) in your body. I don't practice the more 'holistic' aspects of the tradition, such as the alleged curing of serious illnesses; I concentrate on the exercises and meditations.
This is how I came across Brian's podcast; I was looking for more information on this "energy," and found the first episode of Skeptoid on iTunes. I was, I admit, skeptical of the episode itself; my first reaction was "well, this guy obviously hasn't experienced it the way I have." Which, as I learned from other episodes, is a textbook logical fallacy.
It got me thinking. I did more research on Qi Gong, and found that the practice as it is today has gotten away from it's supposedly ancient roots; the idea that it could only be taught by a Master and is highly secretive was really just a way to keep the information and supposed benefits among a select few, to make it more mysterious and appealing. Though that doesn't discount the philosophy behind it, just the way that philosophy has been exploited and corrupted.

So. There's no magical cloud of energy that we somehow draw on to make ourselves healthier and stronger, I can accept that. It makes more sense. But I can't deny that I "feel something" when I do Qi Gong. I can feel something coursing through me. Perhaps this is a placebo effect, but it begs the question: to what extent should one discount a philosophy or pseudo-scientific idea? Where is the line between skepticism and faith?
The exercises, on their own, are beneficial. So is the meditation. Does the idea that "magical energy" is involved discount the whole thing, or is is valid on it's own merits?

I'm not trying to argue for the validity of this, by the way; I'm interested in people's opinions about where that line lay...

[Denver]

Faith has different meanings in different domains. Even science uses 'faith', in that not every statement of science is tested and retested by every scientist who wants to make use of it. The difference between science-skeptic-faith and religious-faith seems to be that, when you are arguing some science-faith point, it opens up new areas for discussion. But when discussing some religious-faith point, it usually closes down the discussion with the wall of "Its faith - your not supposed to understand".

So even doing Qi-gong can involve both types of faith. I'd just recommend the kind that keeps the questions going.

[Van00uber]

Personally I have a hard time with the inappropriate use of the word energy in any situation. It's usually a red flag for pseudo-science and general ********. But I also have a hard time with the word faith if it's used in the context of scientific studies, sure we can rely on certain things such as the universal laws of physics in our studies, but our assumptions are based on previous observations of how the world works. Religious faith seems to be based only on word of mouth, books, or ambiguous feeling people have, I see no logical reason for anyone to have religious faith.

[tobiasosir]

I would have to agree to a point on religious faith; it's not logical, it does shut down questions, and I think it often does claim to have no need of understanding. I do think that it has a very real and viable place in some people's lives, though.
Religion gives people hope, helps with morality (I *don't* believe it creates morality,) and so on. But that's for another discussion.

The use of the world "energy" in this context is what got me thinking about it all in the first place. If you use "energy" in a scientific way--and I agree that any other way is pretty meaningless--then it's apparent pretty quickly that the "pseudo-scientific": definition makes no sense. From a purely scientific viewpoint, energy just doesn't work that way.

That's science. The faith comes in when I use these exercises and meditations, and they work. Teachers of those practices say that it's the Qi that makes it work--and I've actually felt...something...flowing through my body when I perform this practice. So if that's not energy, what is it?

Perhaps it's as simple as an ancient person coming up with a new exercise routine that worked well for him, and he used the word energy to explain why it worked. That doesn't mean it's actually Qi doing the job; nor does that mean that Qi Gong doesn't actually do anything. The question then becomes how does it work?

In other words, if it's not energy, what is it?

On a related note, a completely naive and sincere question: isn't there energy in the body? The brain works on electromagnetic energy, calories are used as fuel in the body, etc. Is it possible or even plausible that one could somehow use that energy, or that this is what's meant by Qi?
I admit it sounds a bit odd that one could "harness electromagnetic brainwaves" to help repair health problems in the body. I'm honestly just trying to understand the issue as a whole, and it seems like a question to ask.

[Dragonrock]

When I was in the army and stationed in Korea we would go out and do PT in the -10 weather. By the time you got into formation and headed out to the PT grounds you were generally chilled to the bone. Once we started exercising I could actually feel the heat flowing into my previously freezing hands and feet. Of course, I wasn't feeling the heat flow into them as there was heat, carried by the blood, constantly flowing into them. What was happening was my body temp was going up so there was more heat to distribute to my extremetes. My point is that what it felt like to me was not what was actually happening.

Another example: I had an umbilical hernia and when the surgeon was palpating the hole in my abdomen it hurt like hell. The thing was it didn't hurt around my navel, it hurt in a general "inside my abdomen" way. It turned out that my bowel was pushing through the hole and he was squeezing the wall of my colon. Our intestines don't have the nerves to pinpoint the exact location of the pain as it does an ape in the jungle no good to know that 18 inches up his colon there's pain. The general discomfort without a specific location is quite sufficient. My point of this annecdote is that the sensations we feel can be misinterpreted or our bodies may simply not need to have nerves set up to detect exactly what's going on.

The "energy" you feel could simply be parts of your body changing temperature or perhaps your blood pressure going down as you relax. There are probably entirely mundane explanations for the sensations and attributing them to qi adds nothing to the situation. I think Carl Sagan once said something like "Isn't it enough to see that the garden is beautiful without having to imagine there are fairies at the bottom?"

[Bram Kaandorp]

When I was in the army and stationed in Korea we would go out and do PT in the -10 weather. By the time you got into formation and headed out to the PT grounds you were generally chilled to the bone. Once we started exercising I could actually feel the heat flowing into my previously freezing hands and feet. Of course, I wasn't feeling the heat flow into them as there was heat, carried by the blood, constantly flowing into them. What was happening was my body temp was going up so there was more heat to distribute to my extremetes. My point is that what it felt like to me was not what was actually happening.

Another example: I had an umbilical hernia and when the surgeon was palpating the hole in my abdomen it hurt like hell. The thing was it didn't hurt around my navel, it hurt in a general "inside my abdomen" way. It turned out that my bowel was pushing through the hole and he was squeezing the wall of my colon. Our intestines don't have the nerves to pinpoint the exact location of the pain as it does an ape in the jungle no good to know that 18 inches up his colon there's pain. The general discomfort without a specific location is quite sufficient. My point of this annecdote is that the sensations we feel can be misinterpreted or our bodies may simply not need to have nerves set up to detect exactly what's going on.

The "energy" you feel could simply be parts of your body changing temperature or perhaps your blood pressure going down as you relax. There are probably entirely mundane explanations for the sensations and attributing them to qi adds nothing to the situation. I think Carl Sagan once said something like "Isn't it enough to see that the garden is beautiful without having to imagine there are fairies at the bottom?"

Totally agree, and as a reward, read my sig.

Glad to be of service.

[I Ratant]

I would have to agree to a point on religious faith; it's not logical, it does shut down questions, and I think it often does claim to have no need of understanding. I do think that it has a very real and viable place in some people's lives, though.
Religion gives people hope, helps with morality (I *don't* believe it creates morality,) and so on. But that's for another discussion.

The use of the world "energy" in this context is what got me thinking about it all in the first place. If you use "energy" in a scientific way--and I agree that any other way is pretty meaningless--then it's apparent pretty quickly that the "pseudo-scientific": definition makes no sense. From a purely scientific viewpoint, energy just doesn't work that way.

That's science. The faith comes in when I use these exercises and meditations, and they work. Teachers of those practices say that it's the Qi that makes it work--and I've actually felt...something...flowing through my body when I perform this practice. So if that's not energy, what is it?

Perhaps it's as simple as an ancient person coming up with a new exercise routine that worked well for him, and he used the word energy to explain why it worked. That doesn't mean it's actually Qi doing the job; nor does that mean that Qi Gong doesn't actually do anything. The question then becomes how does it work?

In other words, if it's not energy, what is it?

On a related note, a completely naive and sincere question: isn't there energy in the body? The brain works on electromagnetic energy, calories are used as fuel in the body, etc. Is it possible or even plausible that one could somehow use that energy, or that this is what's meant by Qi?
I admit it sounds a bit odd that one could "harness electromagnetic brainwaves" to help repair health problems in the body. I'm honestly just trying to understand the issue as a whole, and it seems like a question to ask.
.
It's mostly placebo effect.
You heard that doing this different thing would make some change in you.
That the change was due just to doing something different is masked by the self-induced agreement that the different feeling was due to this "Qi" and not just that you were doing something different, -and- expecting to notice a difference.
I imagine you can continue with the process and not suffer any harm, but don't buy the Power Bands that harness your electromagnetic energy with the hologram device.
All that does is make your money their money. :)

[not daSkeptic]

The difference between science-skeptic-faith and religious-faith seems to be that, when you are arguing some science-faith point, it opens up new areas for discussion. But when discussing some religious-faith point, it usually closes down the discussion with the wall of "Its faith - your not supposed to understand".

I think it's simpler than that. All things in science can be tested, in theory at least, regardless of whether or not anyone actually does so. Religion generally does not follow the same standard.

[tobiasosir]

Dragonrock: I think that's probably very close to what's happening. Interesting that we generally try to explain entirely mundane things by giving them a 'supernatural' origin. The 'heat' or 'energy' I feel when I'm doing Qi Gong could be explained in the same way as your exercising in the cold analogy.
I can also often 'feel' a certain pressure when I practice and hold my hands close together. There's probably an equally mundane explanation for this.
This kind of explanation might take away from the 'mystique' of Qi Gong for some people, but I don't think it does; in fact, I think it defines the concept of Qi quite nicely. Traditionally, Qi is described as the energy in the body; blood pressure or the appearance of heat through normal bodily functions could easily be misidentified as such.

I Ratant: Yes, this is where one should heed the line between faith and skepticism. Perhaps that line is crossed when one puts oneself in danger in following their faith; spending thousands of dollars for water purification machines because you believe in them, or letting yourself get bitten by venomous snakes because "your faith will heal you."
This is part of what I'm struggling with; I believe that Qi Gong--as well as meditation, spiritual living, positive thinking--works for me, and it has done in practise. Maybe a lot of that is a placebo effect, in that I expect it to work, so it does. Or I ignore what doesn't work and concentrate on what does (confirmation bias). But is this such a bad thing, if nobody is harmed?
Where my faith begins to falter is when people talk of Qi Gong healing diseases, or in asking 'the universe' for an answer rather than looking for one yourself. If I examine Qi Gong and other spiritual teachings skeptically, does "the magic" get lost in mundane explanations? But I guess that explaining something scientifically doesn't mean it won't continue to work; it just gives me a different reason for why it works.



By the way, that quote, I think sums up my question/an answer to it pretty well. We don't need a "magical" explanation for things for them to be wonderful.

[SKEPTICALSHAM]

Science is the most reliable faith.
Any other endangers yourself and society. Like tha Salem Witch Hunts

[Bram Kaandorp]

Science is the most reliable faith.
Any other endangers yourself and society. Like tha Salem Witch Hunts

It is so good that it doesn't even need faith.

[Tomtomkent]

Shameless plug/ suggestion time: Look up the "Christian Sceptic" piece in the Pod Delusion a few weeks back? episoded 101 or there abouts?

[Drachasor]

Studies on meditation have shown pretty much any type can produce changes in what the brain is doing while you meditate. Some can induce religious experiences, making you feel another presence. You can also induce a religious experience with a powerful magnetic field aimed at the proper part of the brain.

[SezMe]

tobiasosir, an interesting exercise (ha, ha. a pun) would be to try a different form or practice from the one you started with that involved Qi. Try it for a while to see if you have the same sensations.

ETA: Welcome to the forum.

[tobiasosir]

You know, I did just that this weekend. A friend of mine volunteered to give me a Reiki session. Now let me preface this by saying I know the arguments against Reiki--well, some of them, at least--and I treated the experience with a grain of salt. I do find it very interesting, though, from an "experiential" point of view.

My interest was primarily because, as it's been described to me, Reiki sounds a lot like Qi Gong. Both involve " moving" "energy" around the body as a way of healing it, and both have particular, almost ritualistic methods for doing so. Both also originated in the East (or, in the case of Reiki, so we're told,) and are supposed to be thousands of years old.

I'm on the fence, though, as to why it works as it does. The traditional view is that by envisioning certain symbols, one can call upon spiritual energy to work through the practitioner--as if they were a conduit--and into the patient.

I felt many of the same sensations as I do when practicing Qi Gong. In fact, I felt the exact same sensation in my hands as I do when I do Qi Gong, even though they weren't being 'targeted' by the Reiki. I found this very interesting, as it implies that there is indeed a psychological component to it all; I've compared two "energy healing" systems, and although they're ultimately different, I found similar results because that's what I expected. A sort of confirmation bias.

In the end, I did feel much better after the session (which was concentrating on my sore lower back). A practitioner would say that this is proof that Reiki works; but following the thread of this discussion, I can see that there are other, more scientific explanations. But the end result was the same: I felt better. Does it matter why it works?

Of course, the caveat there is that if you charge $10,000 for a Reiki "attunement" so you can effectively practice, then yes, it matters. Traditionally, one cannot gain "attunement" without paying exorbitant sums of money (which I think is dangerous and blatantly "scammy"), but there are those practitioners who believe that's ridiculous, and pass on their learning free of charge. Fortunately, my practitioner was taught by someone like that.

[Bram Kaandorp]

Even if it's without pay, it does matter how and if it works.

First of all, let's assume that a session of reiki lasts 15 minutes. I don't know the real time, but that is ultimately irrelevant.

If reiki works, great, 15 minutes well spent.

But since it doesn't actively work (the practitioner isn't actually giving anything, other that relaxation, which is a passive thing), I'd say that it's 15 minutes of your life that you're not getting back, regardless of whether you got it for free.

To be honest, I'd rather buy a CD with soothing music for 15 Euro's, and listen to that whilst lying down, than to sit with someone who could be doing something more constructive with their time, such as studying to become a physical therapist, who can actually do something not dependent on the placebo effect.

If someone just wants to sit with you to get you to relax, fine, no problem. But as soon as they start saying that they have some power in their hands with which they can heal you, that's when you can do two things:

1. Say that you don't think those things work.

2. Just sit through it, because you certainly can't get any worse by having someone put their hands on your body (that sounded worse than I meant it).

Not that those are the only options, but they seem to me to be the most basic.

Either way, it's up to you to decide whether you want someone to get you to relax, or whether you want someone to help you improve.

[Drachasor]

I felt many of the same sensations as I do when practicing Qi Gong. In fact, I felt the exact same sensation in my hands as I do when I do Qi Gong, even though they weren't being 'targeted' by the Reiki. I found this very interesting, as it implies that there is indeed a psychological component to it all; I've compared two "energy healing" systems, and although they're ultimately different, I found similar results because that's what I expected. A sort of confirmation bias.

Well that's totally the placebo effect then, because that's all Reiki does.

[Aridas]

So... thank you for this thread. I'd been considering starting one somewhat similarly, but the right words weren't coming. I feel like just poking at a couple parts, either way.

Recently, I've become interested in a practice of Chinese Traditional Medicine known as Qi Gong. It involves manipulating, cultivating, and rejuvenating the "energy" (or Qi) in your body. <snip>

Heh. The kind of thing that I consider fun to do to alleviate boredom, but not to put serious stock in.

So. There's no magical cloud of energy that we somehow draw on to make ourselves healthier and stronger, I can accept that.

Probably not! I've actually heard... quite a few variations that boil down to this idea, during my history of having fun with them. None of them seemed particularly more trustworthy than others. The mere act of focusing positively, though, is enough to produce the effects described, in my experience. I tend to consider it harmless fun, either way, as long as you don't expect it to do anything other than produce interesting sensations.

It makes more sense. But I can't deny that I "feel something" when I do Qi Gong. I can feel something coursing through me. Perhaps this is a placebo effect, but it begs the question: to what extent should one discount a philosophy or pseudo-scientific idea? Where is the line between skepticism and faith?

I definitely "feel something" flowing through me when I use methods that aren't Qi Gong. In fact, I was definitely feeling like I was "channeling something" as a little kid who wanted his Commodore 64 to load programs faster. I fully recognized that it likely had no effect other than keeping my mind focused on something, though, even then.

The exercises, on their own, are beneficial. So is the meditation. Does the idea that "magical energy" is involved discount the whole thing, or is is valid on it's own merits?

It sounds like you've already figured this part out, either way. There are parts that are demonstrably beneficial. There are parts that are probably unnecessary to achieve the same effect. They may serve a purpose in encouraging faith in those who don't think critically to keep up with the directly beneficial parts, but... fluff is fluff, really.

I'm not trying to argue for the validity of this, by the way; I'm interested in people's opinions about where that line lay...

I'd suggest that this approach is likely the wisest. I may be biased, though, given that I intended the same.

Personally I have a hard time with the inappropriate use of the word energy in any situation. It's usually a red flag for pseudo-science and general ********.

I can agree with you, but I can certainly sympathize with those who use it in that context, having used it myself a few too many times. Why? As a placeholder word that inherently acknowledged that I had no idea what, exactly, I was talking about. Frankly, had I heard a word that fit the concepts I was trying to articulate, I would have happily used that, but having heard energy mostly used in a "woo" way while growing up and learning from context, "energy" always did seem like the best word to use.

My point of this annecdote is that the sensations we feel can be misinterpreted or our bodies may simply not need to have nerves set up to detect exactly what's going on.

The "energy" you feel could simply be parts of your body changing temperature or perhaps your blood pressure going down as you relax. There are probably entirely mundane explanations for the sensations and attributing them to qi adds nothing to the situation. I think Carl Sagan once said something like "Isn't it enough to see that the garden is beautiful without having to imagine there are fairies at the bottom?"

Thank you, Dragonrock. As a sidenote, I like dragons, probably a bit too much, and suddenly want to lay on a warmed "dragon's rock" or just have dragons made out of rock of my very own. And... yeah, to get back on topic. I'd be quite surprised if there weren't physical mechanisms to produce these effects. What, exactly, they are... I think would be excellent knowledge to have, when dealing with these concepts. I know that it's certainly been an old question of mine, albeit one that I've had excessive amounts of difficult in formulating properly in the past, which has hindered any search.

And... yeah. The quote is quite relevant and excellent.

It's mostly placebo effect.
You heard that doing this different thing would make some change in you.

Honestly? I'm not so certain that this statement is completely accurate. As I mentioned earlier in the post, I was "channeling" as a little kid, and I'm fairly certain that any exposure to such ideas before I started to do it was incredibly limited. I certainly didn't know how to articulate it then, either way. It's one of a number of cases where I seemingly was doing something in that general subject, and later learned that I wasn't alone.

This is part of what I'm struggling with; I believe that Qi Gong--as well as meditation, spiritual living, positive thinking--works for me, and it has done in practise. Maybe a lot of that is a placebo effect, in that I expect it to work, so it does. Or I ignore what doesn't work and concentrate on what does (confirmation bias). But is this such a bad thing, if nobody is harmed?

I'd say it's not a bad thing, especially if you can recognize why things likely work and don't try to spread misconceptions or trust in miracles occurring on command. I'm a bit biased, though, as you may have noticed.

As for later mentions of Reiki... I've actually had a fair bit of training as a Massage Therapist. Reiki was a side note, really, if an easy and amusing one. I took the first course and... frankly, the concepts are fun, mostly for the same reasons as I mentioned earlier. The ritualistic setting in which they're put? Rather laughable, especially given that I was able to do the same thing, already, without the symbols. As a person who can practice it, and hasn't actually looked deeply into any objections for its efficacy... yeah. The placebo effect can probably explain most of it. Possibly all, much as I'm not willing to make that a definite, given my lack of knowing everything relevant.

That said... on the topic of passing "energy," to use it in the "woo" sense, I've had an odd experience or few. The one that I can dismiss least easily was one where I ran into a friend with some of his friends, years ago, and the topic ended up on the general subject of "energy" and "elements," it moved on, but one of the friend's friends had claimed that they were good at sensing. So, me being curious on the matter, I started focusing on gathering a ball of "fire" or heat in one of my hands. Given that the hand was cupped, a guess could have been made that something was up, but I didn't inform anyone else either of the specifics or intentions. After a while, I felt like it was "definite" enough to use as a test, so I placed the hand with the "ball of fire" on the person's shoulder and "channeled" the "energy" into the person. Their first words were a complaint about how they weren't going to be able to use anything but fire for a week. This, frankly, surprised me a bit. So I tried again, this time with my other hand and the concept of cold. When I did it to the person's other shoulder, they complained about ice, that time. Satisfied enough that the person was actually telling the truth about being sensitive and pondering the moral implications of testing matters further on a subject who was not informed and hadn't given agreement to be used as such... I stopped there, with that line of investigation. Naturally, I'm not going to claim that there either weren't or couldn't be mundane causes for this. In fact, I'd love to hear suggestions of what they could be. I have difficulty attributing that event to the placebo effect or my imagination, though.

[Drachasor]

Honestly? I'm not so certain that this statement is completely accurate. As I mentioned earlier in the post, I was "channeling" as a little kid, and I'm fairly certain that any exposure to such ideas before I started to do it was incredibly limited. I certainly didn't know how to articulate it then, either way. It's one of a number of cases where I seemingly was doing something in that general subject, and later learned that I wasn't alone.

How does that invalidate the placebo effect? All you need is to believe something works to generate the effect. It doesn't require other people believe that thing works or even that it is practiced outside of yourself.

What it does mean is that you can replace whatever you are doing with something else you believe works and get the same effect. (Actually, there's been some evidence you can be aware intellectually that a procedure doesn't work and the effect will still be generated).

[Hoppy]

I don't know that there is any hard evidence for this but I truly believe that some, if not all, of your Qi Gong experience has to do with endorphin release. Feelings of well being can be and often are endorphin related. Perhaps "spiritual experience" is endorphin release and nothing more. "Runners high" is totally endorphin related.

[GrandMasterFox]

But I can't deny that I "feel something" when I do Qi Gong. I can feel something coursing through me. Perhaps this is a placebo effect, but it begs the question: to what extent should one discount a philosophy or pseudo-scientific idea?
Where is the line between skepticism and faith?

Where they can't pass a double blind study properly. Qi\Chi\Ki (whatever they want to spell it) gong masters are more than capable of applying for the MDC. In fact, some already did and disappeared when they realized how the actual test would go as they can't BS their way out of it.

An example is available here:
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=45287

tldr version:
Master and imposter do the same thing to 2 groups of people. If the master doesn't get a much higher success rate, than obviously the master isn't any better than the imposter, ergo, anything the master brings to the table is meaningless.


The exercises, on their own, are beneficial. So is the meditation. Does the idea that "magical energy" is involved discount the whole thing, or is is valid on it's own merits?

I heard of a study that showed that people who pray have an easier time of finding their keys when misplaced. Is it more likely that a divine being is responsible? Or maybe if people just stop and clear their head for 5 mintues are they more likely to suddenly remember where they left their keys.

Just because part of it is BS doesn't mean the whole thing is BS. That's the beauty of science. It takes the BS out, leaves the real stuff in and let's us perfect it even better. Breathing and streching excersizes proabably have their benefits, but real scientists will find the best way to benefit where the woo-masters will just suck you up dry.

[Aridas]

How does that invalidate the placebo effect? All you need is to believe something works to generate the effect. It doesn't require other people believe that thing works or even that it is practiced outside of yourself.

It doesn't invalidate that the placebo effect is the most likely explanation at all. I thought that the rest of my post would have made that clear. I was, specifically, referring to the second part of i ratant's statement that I quoted.

[Drachasor]

It doesn't invalidate that the placebo effect is the most likely explanation at all. I thought that the rest of my post would have made that clear. I was, specifically, referring to the second part of i ratant's statement that I quoted.

Sorry if I misunderstood. I haven't had a lot of sleep (about to go get some finally, actually).

[Skeptic Ginger]

The lines divides up nicely at 'success'. Evidence based reality is a consistently successful position. Faith based reality including the Qi you imagine exists has no better track record of success than random results.

[mudguts]

I left for 9 months because people are worried about believing in things..I find this amasing for a forum that is supposed to apply citical thinking prior to posting.

If you have to believe in something it isnt science yet. If you persist, you have to show it works.

Pretty simple I think..