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INRM
20th April 2004, 10:32 PM
I was thinking about this. I was doing some research on performance-enhancing drugs and I even joined a group on Yahoo which discussed this subject. No I'm not using them.

There was another group which discussed why people are so willing to do wrong to get ahead in America. Like why businessmen resort to dirty tricks more often, why athletes are testing positive for steroids left and right, and other such things.

I began thinking about it. Here is what 3.5 lbs of neurons and a possible spirit (not certain here) came up with.

Reason 1
PSYCHOLOGY: In America over the past 30 years, psychology has become quite commonplace. Lots of psychological diagnoses explain lots of characteristics about human behavior. Psychologists are quick to label a person as having one personality trait or another. The problem is they often treat them as if they are always excuses for a persons behavior, as if they absolve the person of their actions. Not all mental-illnesses affect you so badly that you are totally powerless, yet the often make it off to be that way. While certain illnesses, such as Schizophrenia, are so bad that people are virtually, if not totally (maybe John Nash was an exception) powerless against it, many others such as depression are often not so bad as to be totally debilitating; many can function with mild, to moderate depression. Many people often believe that any psychological diagnosis can be used to absolve bad behavior. People who often do undesirable behavior will often use psychological diagnoses (even if it is not valid) as a crutch for their behavior. The fact that people, modern day, will allow people to use these diagnoses as a crutch, and absolve them of their actions, only causes people to live their life believing they are not responsible for their actions. People also have begun to adopt the posture that as long as they can make an excuse for something, it's okay.
In the old days, people tried to make excuses for their behavior before, but the medical establishment, and scientists rarely backed them up. Excuses for bad-behavior was generally not accepted. It often got you into hotter water. Perhaps this was a good thing. It tought people to take responsibility for their actions. Imagine in the past if someone tried to say "I'm sorry I said all that stuff, but I've been feeling down, and I've been suffering from depression." They would have been told "I don't care what you have, what you said was inexcusable, you have to learn how to control yourself." But now, not only has psychology allowed people to make excuses for their actions, but they are recognized scientifically and medically, which gives them a lot more weight. Now a person who holds a person responsible for their actions because they're acting inappropriately is viewed as hard-(synonym for donkey), or "old-school", or backward.
Not that I'm saying the old days are always good. Many bad things happened in the past, but the fact that people were encouraged to take responsibility for their actions, was good.

Reason 2
TECHNOLOGY: Not that all technology is bad, I am not anti-technology, but I do think that technology has brought along some bad with the good. Since technology can do things so fast and so quickly, people don't feel as if they need to develop patience. They want things instantly, and without waiting. People are unwilling to do things the slow way, even if the slow way is more reliable, or safer. The lack of patience in our society has caused many people to take a preferance for cutting corners to get the result because it would be faster than doing it "the right way". If these corner-cutting measures are illegal, so be it. After all, they are under so much pressure that they felt trapped, and they felt as if there was no way out, and that was the only way they felt it possible to survive. (See Reason 1: PSYCHOLOGY).

Reason 3
COMPETITION & GREED: People are very competitive, part of it is just animal-nature (animals can be competitive too-- we are basically super-complex animals.), and part of it is the internet, and digital technology, and a 24-hour workplace. People are in a hurry all the time, and people are constantly competing. Some industries are deregulated now, when they used to be-- The Airline Industry is one of them. There are reasons why industries are regulated. It's so that the place doesn't turn into an "Anything goes" Lord of the Flies environment. Of course, people don't like being regulated, and I understand it's wrong to be so regulated you can't do anything, but no regulations when it comes to businesses can be suicide. Only the fastest, most clever, and (often) the most devious people can frequently succeed.
People are under such pressure to succeed that they are often tempted to resort to dirty behavior or underhanded tricks to get ahead. Sometimes their very job depends on them outperforming their competitors, such as athletes. He who can jump the highest, run the farthests, run the fastest, throw the furthest pass, throw the hardest punch, shoot the farthest shot goes ahead. The rest are viewed as next to nobodies, or at least, they don't get massive endorsements and get to appear on Pepsi Commercials. Many athletes have not resisted the temptation to take a drug which would make them throw a little harder, or hit a little faster. Maybe that wasn't their game, maybe they wanted to run a little faster, or jump a little higher. There are drugs for all of these things. An entire science of medicine devoted to producing medication which enhances the athletic performance of the human body for the purpose of playing sports has been conceived. There also is a science of medicine devoted to catching people using medicines devoted to enhancing athletic performance, but athletes devise ways to avoid being detected. Athletes sometimes still resort to using performance-enhancing drugs. Business-wise, many people, ironically the ones that are highest-up in the food-chain often resort to dirty-tricks to get ahead. It's not just about having millions, it's about making more millions than all your competitors. Some people resort to corporate-espionage, and others resort to outright fraud. Enron, for example, comes to mind. Basically the company was not doing so good, so they devised a scheme of creating a bunch of fake companies which they would establish trade with. They would trade with them in such a way so that only Enron would make money, and they would lose. Basically, Enron would look wealthy beyong their wildest imagination, and these other fake companies, if anyone even knew they existed, would appear to be in ruins. (I'm not certain if this part is exactly true, but from what I read, it appears to make sense.) Ultimately, to my knowledge, even that didn't work perfectly, and their stock price started to fall. With billons of dollars, they were unwilling to lose it all, so they told people in their own company to buy their stocks. And they did, they bought stocks, some even using their pensions and 401K's to do it. All the stocks being bought probably brought the stock price up one final time. At that precise moment, the heads of Enron dumped all their stocks as fast as they could, and the company went down faster than Monica Lewinsky on Bill Clinton.
Enron's actions were not just an example of excessive competition, they were examples of greed. It's amazing how companies that make billions still fixate on money. As I said, it's not entirely on just the billions, it's about making more of them than the opponents. The greed aggrivates the competition.

Reason 4
ACCOUNTABILITY: People do not hold people accountable enough for their actions. Some people are evolved enough to behave even without fear of punishment, many are not, however, and are immature and need to be in constant threat of punishment to have a reason to behave. If some people are not held accountable for their actions, they will do virtually whatever they feel like and society will plummet into ruins. The bulk of people who do wrong things to get ahead are often quick to avoid accountability because they are good at making excuses. It generally seems that in this modern day, an excuse nullifies the bad act, and that as long as you can make an excuse, you can avoid punishment. The fact that psychology is very commonly recognized, even in courts sometimes, makes it very difficult to hold sneaky people accountable for their actions. Some people will make any excuse, they were beat up as a kid, someone teased them, etc, to justify their actions, because they know, an excuse will nullify the bad act and will exempt them.
People need to learn how to take responsibility for their actions. 20-40 years ago, all these ridiculous excuses wouldn't have been tolerated. It was generally encouraged to take responsibility for their actions and own up to their actions. Nobody really wants to take responsibility for their actions, but it has to be done, or society will crumble.
I remember reading a quote by a Captain (USN), named Robert L. Leuschner (He commanded the Aircraft Carrier U.S.S. Enterprise from 1983 to 1986) during the end of his command in 1986. The article was titled "Leadership and Accountability". It read: "If our nation's civilian society would practice accountability more scrupulously, there would be far less negligence, crime and corruption in our country, and for all its wonderful qualities already, the United States would be much more like the ideal our forefathers had in mind". Leuschner was actually regarded as a jerk by his crew, and lots of them, behind his back, called him Captain Lucifer, and Captain Loser, but despite all his crazy antics, and fanatical attitude, he was actually right on that one point. When I say it, I don't mean spying on everyone like Big Brother to make sure everyone behaves. I mean not tolerating bulls**t from people making excuses for intolerable behavior to avoid punishment for their actions, and holding them accountable for their behavior.

Reason 5
DISCIPLINE: I think people are lacking that lately. People don't seem to have anywhere near the same self-control as they did years back. Part of it is a lack of patience, and the belief that they are not accountable for their actions because of some kind of psychological diagnosis. People act very immature when it comes to behavior. The gym I work at, for example. The lifeguards there are practically never paying attention, just when the door opens, they look at the door to make sure the person is male/female, or their boss. Then they grab a clicker which counts how many people are there, and click one labled "MALE" and the other labled "FEMALE" to gauge how many men go in, versus how many females go in. Other than that, they are doing their homework, talking on the phone, playing cards on their cell, and even chatting using their cell as a mobile device. Granted, this is anecdotal evidence, but if you really want, I can take a small camera into the gym and record the whole thing and post it up on some cheap webspace for you all to watch... but I think it would be better for now if you just took my word.
Part of it is the fact that parents don't raise their kids right. They side with the kid no matter what. Even if the teacher told them that their child was trying to set a fire, they'd say "That's not the child I know..." -- of course not, you work 14 hours a day, your spouse does the same, so neither of you are home to watch your kid, they do whatever they want most of the time, and they've become so manipulative because they figure they can avoid punishment if they can act angelic in front of you, so they have you totally snowed and you're so naive you must have your head 5 inches up your (synonym for donkey) to achieve such levels of ignorance. The other problem is they don't monitor their kids. I don't mean use a camera, I mean just watch your kid. They don't do a very good job of watching their kids, or making sure they don't misbehave. Of course, since people work so much, there is very little time to take care of the children, or spend "quality time" with them, but if 10 different people are saying your kid is a big fat bully who is tormenting other children, I think it's time to start considering it as a possibility.
Some parents try to be the child's friend. That isn't always possible. Sometimes parents have a duty to lay down the law. It doesn't mean the parent doesn't love the child, it just means that their job involves making sure that child behaves when he's supposed to.

I might be missing other variables, but I think I got most of them.

-INRM

Kopji
21st April 2004, 12:09 AM
This seems to have all started with the parents of today's bad parents, back in the 'good old days'. Something sinister about Andy Griffith and Gilligan's Island. Something was dreadfully wrong back then we do not yet recognize.

And why just in America? This is most ominious. TV signals somehow being blocked at the Canadian border? Somehow the problem skipping over to Alaska and Hawaii.

Zep
21st April 2004, 12:15 AM
Well, it didn't make it across the Pacific. WE don't have ego-driven ethics-free law-avoiding executives in Australia, nosiree. No, we cut their heads off and beat the living tripe out of them the moment they show any signs of being a cut above the dull grey and lifeless pack.

There is no such people as Rupert Murdoch in Australia! :)

Darat
21st April 2004, 04:51 AM
Originally posted by Zep
Well, it didn't make it across the Pacific. WE don't have ego-driven ethics-free law-avoiding executives in Australia, nosiree. No, we cut their heads off and beat the living tripe out of them the moment they show any signs of being a cut above the dull grey and lifeless pack.

There is no such people as Rupert Murdoch in Australia! :)

Well that's because you exported him! (And I thought you just shake bones at people you didn't approve off?)

Seriously the behaviour I don’t see as being anything peculiar to the USA.

TECHNOLOGY: Not that all technology is bad, I am not anti-technology, but I do think that technology has brought along some bad with the good. Since technology can do things so fast and so quickly, people don't feel as if they need to develop patience. They want things instantly, and without waiting. People are unwilling to do things the slow way, even if the slow way is more reliable, or safer.

Hasn’t this always been the case?

COMPETITION & GREED: People are very competitive, part of it is just animal-nature (animals can be competitive too-- we are basically super-complex animals.), and part of it is the internet, and digital technology, and a 24-hour workplace.

Again hasn’t this always been the case? I feel as if I could go on saying the same about all your points.

I don’t hold the view that the human animal has changed significantly in the last 10,50,100, 1000 or 100,000 years. Perhaps modern society emphasises different aspects of our nature then it did say 50 years ago, but all that indicates to me is that in the next 50 years it could start to emphasis some other aspects of our nature.

Fundamentally however you seem to be describing human traits that have always been with us. Just look at the libertarian golden age of the Victorians for evidence that competition and greed without accountability has always been with us.

DangerousBeliefs
21st April 2004, 06:14 AM
Originally posted by INRM
I might be missing other variables, but I think I got most of them.

-INRM

How about....

It's always been this way, but with technology, we can more easily see and read about it?

In fact, I'd say things are getting better.

Turn back time and look at the last 2000 years:

1. Slavery

2. Average lifespan around 35-45

3. Monopolistic wealthy elite control most aspects of daily life (this is especially true of Europeon countries but also the US until income tax laws)

4. Expanisonist attitude of "grab and rape" dominates all powers foreign policies.

5. Religion (first Christian, then Catholic, then Catholic and Protestant) dominates all aspects of life.

6. Women and minorities have little or no rights.

7. The strongest do onto the weakest.

8. Crime (perceived or real) generally punished by death, cruel imprisonment, or torture. Usually all leading to death. Often in public.

9. No legal recourse for wrongs. See No. 3.

C.J.
21st April 2004, 07:10 AM
Interesting. I would make some arguments relevant to your characterization of psychology's role in "why people are willing to do wrong to get ahead."

Your question, by inclusion of the word "willing," indicates intentional wrongdoing. I don't believe, from the tone of your essay, that you'd disagree with that. And you are undeniably correct that some people who intentionally engage in "wrong" behaviors attempt to use psychological disorders as a cover, a way to avoid responsibility.

However.

To what extent is the neglectful behavior of a clinically depressed mother intentional? The manic individual who takes out loans on false pretenses to start an internet company intends to deceive/defraud. The schizophrenic who physically assaults people he believes to be members of a secret organization out to re-program his brain intends to harm these people. Yet in the cases of true mental disorders, the intentions of these people to engage in these "wrong" behaviors is primarily or entirely a result of their disorder. When treated for their problems, the negelctful mother is mortified, the manic person is ashamed, and the schizophrenic is repentant.

I write this to note that while some people may unjustifiably use psychological disorders as a way to avoid responsibility, more individuals can justifiably have their responsibility lessened.

Many people often believe that any psychological diagnosis can be used to absolve bad behavior.

Perhaps this is the thrust of your argument, that people whose understanding of psychology and psychological disorders is inaccurate or incomplete will inappropriately see a disorder as absolving. Note, though, that this is not the fault of psychology as a science, but of people's misconceptions of psychological disorders.

C.J.

C.J.
21st April 2004, 07:58 AM
Also, I suppose that for people to be able to use psychological disorders as a crutch to "allow" them to do wrong, they'd have to be willing to admit to having the disorder when their wrongdoings were exposed. Maybe the "popularization" of clinical psychology would make claiming a disorder less shameful than it has been in the past, which would make this a more palatable way of avoiding responsibility.

C.J.

jackmott
21st April 2004, 08:08 AM
People do wrong to get ahead in all countries, in all times.


America is one of the least bad offenders in the world in regard to this. Sure we have spammers and scammers and even murderers and thieves. But compared to many countries we are far more stable and well behaved.

KS_SKEPTIC
23rd April 2004, 03:25 AM
Why People are Willing to do Wrong to Get Ahead in America?



It's the Christian thing to do! :D ;)

INRM
24th April 2004, 08:37 PM
Originally posted by Darat
Seriously the behaviour I don’t see as being anything peculiar to the USA.

I sort of do. We kind of have this cocky attitude that we can do whatever we want-- It's the American way, even if it makes others miserable. We're the most powerful country in the world, so we often have this "What are *you* going to do about it?" attitude towards thing.

Hasn’t this always been the case?

I guess it sort of has, ever since the industrial revolution at least. The problem is that technology has developed considerably faster, and things that took awhile can now be done very fast. In the old days, you still required patience. No, you usually don't, so people feel as if they don't need to develop patience.

Again hasn’t this always been the case? I feel as if I could go on saying the same about all your points.

Not exactly. The amount of greed has varied over the years. In the '70's it began to get bad, and then by the '80's it reached it's peak. As an example. Also as certain industries de-regulate, compeititon becomes more ruthless.

Fundamentally however you seem to be describing human traits that have always been with us. Just look at the libertarian golden age of the Victorians for evidence that competition and greed without accountability has always been with us.

Yeah, but the aspect of technology haven't been there back then, at least, not computers.

Originally posted by DangerousBeliefs
How about....

It's always been this way, but with technology, we can more easily see and read about it?

Yes, that's one of the reasons.

In fact, I'd say things are getting better.

That's debatible. But there have been improvements.

Turn back time and look at the last 2000 years:

America wasn't around 2,000 years ago. I mean roughly in the past 20-40 years.

Originally posted by C.J.
Interesting. I would make some arguments relevant to your characterization of psychology's role in "why people are willing to do wrong to get ahead."

I'm not saying I'm a hundred percent correct, I kind of slapped my message together.

Your question, by inclusion of the word "willing," indicates intentional wrongdoing. I don't believe, from the tone of your essay, that you'd disagree with that. And you are undeniably correct that some people who intentionally engage in "wrong" behaviors attempt to use psychological disorders as a cover, a way to avoid responsibility.

That is basically the biggest problem. And the most crooked people are also the most manipulative.

There is actually other factors as well. Sometimes people don't believe they're doing wrong. For example if other people around them get crooked, they feel it's okay to be crooked too. The question then is "why do they get crooked"... and in that case, I'd say they deliberately did wrong, and probably used an excuse to justify it.

However.

To what extent is the neglectful behavior of a clinically depressed mother intentional?

You can be held accountable for doing things that are unintentional if they are as a result of neglecting your responsibility.

Still, whether she should be held accountable for her neglectfulness depends on her degree of depression. If it's just a little bit, or moderate, probably not. If she's severely depressed, or even psychotically depressed, no.

The manic individual who takes out loans on false pretenses to start an internet company intends to deceive/defraud.

Probably yes, depends on how manic. Psychotic-manic? Or just a bit hyper? Should they be held accountable? If the former, no, if the latter, yes.

The schizophrenic who physically assaults people he believes to be members of a secret organization out to re-program his brain intends to harm these people.

I do not believe they should be held accountable. They are obviously not in the right frame of mind. Their judgement is too impared to be held accountable for their actions.

Yet in the cases of true mental disorders, the intentions of these people to engage in these "wrong" behaviors is primarily or entirely a result of their disorder.

Yeah, but I've suffered depression, and even though it's hard to drag my a_s up in the morning, I can do it if I need to. Which shows I have control, although diminished.

Maybe a form of reduced punishment should be given to a person with diminished capacity. But if you elaborate how much control people have over their lives, you have some people who say "free-will is an illusion". Technically if you wanted to elaborate enough, you could say nobody has control over their lives, which makes them legally insane and not accountable for their actions. I think there needs to be a reasonable definition of what is, and what isn't, sane.

When treated for their problems, the negelctful mother is mortified, the manic person is ashamed, and the schizophrenic is repentant.

I guess it depends on how different they were unmedicated, and how they acted when medicated. But if they had some control when they did something wrong, they still should be held accountable. At least, to some extent.

I write this to note that while some people may unjustifiably use psychological disorders as a way to avoid responsibility, more individuals can justifiably have their responsibility lessened.

Lessened being the key word. If Schizophrenic, at least under most circumstances, I would say, having them absolved of responsiblity of their actions.

Perhaps this is the thrust of your argument, that people whose understanding of psychology and psychological disorders is inaccurate or incomplete will inappropriately see a disorder as absolving. Note, though, that this is not the fault of psychology as a science, but of people's misconceptions of psychological disorders.

I'm just saying it's one of the reason's why more americans now are willing to do wrong to get ahead. I did not say that all americans try to relieve themselves of their responsibilities by using a psychological illness as a crutch.

Another issue is that many American's think it's okay to use it as a crutch... they believe that they have a legitimate excuse... not just "How do I absolve myself of this... hey, I have depression, yeah, I'm not responsible, HAH!". But, "Yeah, I've done some wrong things, but I have depression, and you're powerless against it."

And again, reasonable lines need to be drawn on what is and what isn't sane. Otherwise, any quirk, or any hard moment in one's life can be used as an excuse to absolve themself of their actions.

COCT
25th April 2004, 07:13 AM
Here's a twist on the question.

A lot of our urges have biological roots: For example, we're obsessed with sex because otherwise we wouldn't reproduce.

So what about the urge to get ahead by cheating? Is an ability to be sly and stealthy in cheating a benefit? Or a hindrence? If the fittest survive, is this trait one that goes under the "fit" column and should get passed on, or get weeded out? From a biological standpoint?

Or is it completely a learned behavior?

COCT

epepke
26th April 2004, 12:24 AM
Originally posted by INRM


I sort of do. We kind of have this cocky attitude that we can do whatever we want-- It's the American way, even if it makes others miserable.

And this is distinguishable from Britain, France, Germany, the Ottoman empire and its children, China, Japan, etc. exactly how?

C.J.
26th April 2004, 06:55 AM
Thanks for the thoughtful reply. It clears up my misunderstanding of your original post.

Also:
Originally posted by INRM

Another issue is that many American's think it's okay to use it as a crutch... they believe that they have a legitimate excuse... not just "How do I absolve myself of this... hey, I have depression, yeah, I'm not responsible, HAH!". But, "Yeah, I've done some wrong things, but I have depression, and you're powerless against it."


There's actually a term clinical psychologists use to describe this phenomenon (there's a rash of this in children/adolescents with ADHD, who feel that they have no ability or are under no obligation to control their impulsive behavior), but I can't recall it at the moment.

C.J.

Suezoled
26th April 2004, 07:01 AM
Originally posted by epepke


And this is distinguishable from Britain, France, Germany, the Ottoman empire and its children, China, Japan, etc. exactly how?

Cuz' they're over there and I'm over here. so..there!

Hey, some people don't like and cheat to get ahead. Some of us lie and cheat to not get anymore behind. Oh, did I say "us"? Silly me... I meant...um... oh dang. Nevermind.

Nyarlathotep
26th April 2004, 07:57 AM
It isn't just today and it isn't just America. People have always been willing to do wrong to get ahead. Just look in history books at how many examples you can find of lesser royalty bumping off parents and/or siblings in order to become King, for starters.

NoZed Avenger
26th April 2004, 08:09 AM
How to explain this byzantine mystery? I have been laying awake at night trying to fathom just what factor could make Americans, alone of all the world, so damn selfish. I have come to two possible theories, but the evidence supports both equally, so I am asking for assistance before taking it any further:

Theory One: There is something in the water in America that just turns people selfish and greedy. If they had been lucky enough to have been reared elsewhere, they might have turned out as responsible citizens of the world, but the insidious material placed into the water by unknown agents (for this discussion, we'll call this unknown agent "flouride") slowly turned everyone in America into a selfish pig. Only a very, very few -- mostly in the North East -- have been able to avoid the effects.

Theory Two: Foreigners. As almost no one is descended from a "native" American originally, the -real- problem is all of the immigrants that started arriving in earnest after 1606. I have not seen these problems documented for Native Americans, which could mean that the real problem is in the "foreign" genes that arrived with the Mayflower, et al. People that have somehow managed to avoid this may have Native american genes, may have managed to "become one with Nature" philisophically, or may have warded off the effects through heavy doses of Norm Chomsky.

N/A