Could the very high rate of mental illness in Europe be related to religion decline?

[Leumas]

Was the Holocaust what the Christians in Germany did to the Jews?

How about when almost 100% of Europeans where believers in God and mostly the Christian one and yet they forced Jews to live in Ghettos and instituted Pogroms and Inquisitions and Expulsions?

What about the ENGLISH expulsion the Jews 1290 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edict_of_Expulsion)

How about what Martin Luther said in his 7 remedies against the jews in the book The Jews and Their Lies (http://www.amazon.com/Jews-Their-Lies-Martin-Luther/dp/1593640242/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1315943436&sr=1-1). He called for:
Jewish synagogues and schools to be burned to the ground, and the remnants buried out of sight
houses owned by Jews to be likewise razed, and the owners made to live in agricultural outbuildings
their religious writings to be taken away
rabbis to be forbidden to preach, and to be executed if they do
safe conduct on the roads to be abolished for Jews
usury to be prohibited, and for all silver and gold to be removed and "put aside for safekeeping"
the Jewish population to be put to work as agricultural slave labor


The above by the way were the guideline that the Nazis used for their actions.

[DOC]

How about when almost 100% of Europeans where believers in God and mostly the Christian one and yet they forced Jews to live in Ghettos and instituted Pogroms and Inquisitions and Expulsions?

What about the ENGLISH expulsion the Jews 1290 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edict_of_Expulsion)

How about what Martin Luther said in his 7 remedies against the jews in the book The Jews and Their Lies (http://www.amazon.com/Jews-Their-Lies-Martin-Luther/dp/1593640242/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1315943436&sr=1-1). He called for:
Jewish synagogues and schools to be burned to the ground, and the remnants buried out of sight
houses owned by Jews to be likewise razed, and the owners made to live in agricultural outbuildings
their religious writings to be taken away
rabbis to be forbidden to preach, and to be executed if they do
safe conduct on the roads to be abolished for Jews
usury to be prohibited, and for all silver and gold to be removed and "put aside for safekeeping"
the Jewish population to be put to work as agricultural slave labor


The above by the way were the guideline that the Nazis used for their actions.

Martin Luther will be accountable for sins just like everyone else. I know of no modern Christian denominations that wouldn't denounce these Luther's teachings.

And all this is off topic. I simply used the Holocaust as an example of what people would consider as a sin, not to get deeply into the Holocaust.

[Resume]

Martin Luther will be accountable for sins just like everyone else. I know of no modern Christian denominations that wouldn't denounce these Luther's teachings.

And all this is off topic. I simply used the Holocaust as an example of what people would consider as a sin, not to get deeply into the Holocaust.

Your fault then.

[citizenzen]

I simply used the Holocaust as an example of what people would consider as a sin, not to get deeply into the Holocaust.


It's considered a crime ... tried in court, not in church, by judges and lawyers, not pastors and elders.

[DOC]

The logical conclusion that the holocaust is a sin would be that the holocaust causes physical disorders, in this case strokes (since that's the topic here.)


But, of course, you will assert that the causal nature between the two (holocaust and stroke) is tenuous. i agree.

So then I assume you believe the sin of the Holocaust did not increase the amount of strokes or physical ailments among the millions of Jews who experienced it.

Thus, I assume you believe that having almost all of your possessions taken, being separated from your loved ones, being crammed into cattle cars for hundreds of miles, and being put in dirty camps guarded by armed soldiers did not increase the incidences of strokes or physical disorders among those people experiencing it.

[citizenzen]

So then I assume ...


You would be assuming wrong, Doc.

You really need to take a moment and read these posts carefully.

As you seem to have a hard time comprehending them.

[DOC]

It's considered a crime ... tried in court, not in church, by judges and lawyers, not pastors and elders.But it wouldn't be considered a crime in Nazi Germany. So whether or not the Holocaust is wrong is relative without a higher authority like God to say it is wrong. So from an atheist perspective if Germany won the war (which probably would have happened it they got the atomic bomb first) the Holocaust would not have been a crime, since Nazi Germany courts would obviously not have ruled it a crime.

[Leumas]

Martin Luther will be accountable for sins just like everyone else. I know of no modern Christian denominations that wouldn't denounce these Luther's teachings.

And all this is off topic. I simply used the Holocaust as an example of what people would consider as a sin, not to get deeply into the Holocaust.



Martin Luther died a baptized Jesus lover....so he will NEVER pay for his sins.

Have you forgotten your Christian Salvation and Atonement principles (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=7355314#post7355314)?

Have you forgotten Paul in Galatians, Corinthians, and Romans?

Have you forgotten Mark 16:16?

In fact according to the Christian Theology the Jews who were massacred by the Christians will roast in Hell and the ones who extirpated them will have the Eternal Heavenly Servitude (http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/EternalHeaven.htm)in heaven.

[DOC]

Martin Luther died a baptized Jesus lover....so he will NEVER pay for his sins.Not according to Jesus who said not everyone who says Lord, Lord, with enter the kingdom of heaven.

He also talked of those who had Him on their lips but not in their hearts.

[joobz]

So then I assume you believe the sin of the Holocaust did not increase the amount of strokes or physical ailments among the millions of Jews who experienced it.
Let me understand you:
Are you saying that the holocaust is a sin because it causes physical disease in people?

Or are you claiming that sins cause physical diseases as a punishment?

How does that logic apply to Vaginal Prolapse?
Vaginal prolapse is a physical disease.
You suggest that Sin Causes Disease.
Vaginal prolapse is most commonly caused by multiple child births.
Does this mean that "Being fruitful and multiplying" is a sin?

[Resume]

Martin Luther died a baptized Jesus lover....so he will NEVER pay for his sins.

Have you forgotten your Christian Salvation and Atonement principles (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=7355314#post7355314)?

Have you forgotten Paul in Galatians, Corinthians, and Romans?

Have you forgotten Mark 16:16?

In fact according to the Christian Theology the Jews who were massacred by the Christians will roast in Hell and the ones who extirpated them will have the Eternal Heavenly Servitude (http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/EternalHeaven.htm)in heaven.

In the end it's not good works but to whom you swore allegiance, to whom you gave a loyalty oath. One reason why this superstition is such a pestilence.

[Resume]

Not according to Jesus who said not everyone who says Lord, Lord, with enter the kingdom of heaven.

He also talked of those who had Him on their lips but not in their hearts.

How do you know what he had in his heart? You omniscient too?

[Akhenaten]

So then I assume you believe the sin of the Holocaust did not increase the amount of strokes or physical ailments among the millions of Jews who experienced it.





What???

[X]

I maintain your statement makes no sense.


Yes. You might want to think about that...

[Leumas]

But it wouldn't be considered a crime in Nazi Germany. So whether or not the Holocaust is wrong is relative without a higher authority like God to say it is wrong. So from an atheist perspective if Germany won the war the Holocaust would not have been a crime, since Nazi Germany courts would obviously not have ruled it a crime.


It would be a crime in the eyes of the Jews and any person who has empathy and sympathy and decency and humanity.

There would be no need for a God.....but REGARDLESS it would not be YOUR GOD assuming you are talking about Jesus/YHWH/Allah..... for he is not a magnanimous nor forgiving god. For him genocide and holocausts are standard fair.

For God of the bible exterminating people who do not believe as he wants them to believe is quite moral and is cause for GENOCIDE and HOLOCAUSTS of Biblical Proportions.

So if we were to go by your God's moral standards....what Hitler did was quite the right thing......so now the question remains.....where do you DOC get your moral standards from.....I hope not from the Bible.

John 8:
8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
8:45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.


Deut 13
13:6 If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;
13:7 Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth;
13:8 Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him:
13:9 But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.
13:10 And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.


13:13 Certain men, the children of Belial, are gone out from among you, and have withdrawn the inhabitants of their city, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which ye have not known;

13:15 Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword.

[Akhenaten]

Martin Luther will be accountable for sins just like everyone else.





Seems unlikely. He has teh dead, and that pretty much clears the ledger.



I know of no modern Christian denominations that wouldn't denounce these Luther's teachings.





And of course your personal knowledge is always the last word on these things.

Got any quotes from, say, some Lutherans to back up this assertion?



And all this is off topic. I simply used the Holocaust as an example of what people would consider as a sin, not to get deeply into the Holocaust.






Introduce Holocaust in attempt to make point


Fail to make point


Declare Holocaust off-topic.


http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/209954de4ffa543d41.gif (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=23428)

[Leumas]

Introduce Holocaust in attempt to make point
Fail to make point
Declare Holocaust off-topic.
http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/209954de4ffa543d41.gif




Quite right..... well noted.....standard fundamentalist chicanery if you ask me!

[TimCallahan]

(snip) . . . Europeans are plagued by mental and neurological illnesses, with almost 165 million people or 38 percent of the population suffering each year from a brain disorder such as depression, anxiety, insomnia or dementia, according to a large new study. . . . (snip)

First of all, unless you can show that there are no stressors, economic, social or personal, then anxiety, insomnia and some forms of depression are not "brain disorders." Chronic depression, such as that treatable by Prozac and other antidepressants usually involves a chemical imbalance having to do with various neuro-transmitters. This may have some interaction with conscious behavior, but is mostly a chemical problem.

The problem with the study as presented in your link from the OP is that it does not separate out anxiety, depression and substance abuse from either schizophrenia or strokes and senile dementias. I've already responded to your assertion that strokes and dementias are possibly the result of sin. I consider the idea nonsense.

If you can show me a study comparing all regions of the developed world (Europe, U.S. and Canada, Australia and New Zealand, and Japan) or at very least a comparison between European nations and the U.S.; a study that compares rates of anxiety, depression, insomnia and substance abuse (including eating disorders), but not dementias and strokes; then we'd have something to discuss. Until then, your assertion that the decline in religion is the cause of Europe's high rate of mental disease is unsupported. This is particularly true due to the skewing to the study you cited, with its inclusion of strokes and dementias.

[catsmate1]

So then I assume you believe the sin of the Holocaust did not increase the amount of strokes or physical ailments among the millions of Jews who experienced it.
Oh good grief.:rolleyes::eek::boggled::eye-poppi:covereyes

[TimCallahan]

So then I assume you believe the sin of the Holocaust did not increase the amount of strokes or physical ailments among the millions of Jews who experienced it.

Thus, I assume you believe that having almost all of your possessions taken, being separated from your loved ones, being crammed into cattle cars for hundreds of miles, and being put in dirty camps guarded by armed soldiers did not increase the incidences of strokes or physical disorders among those people experiencing it.

Unless you can demonstrate that something akin to the Holocaust is going on in Europe today, then this post is irrelevant to the subject of this thread. What possible sin, prevalent in Europe at this time, could be causing strokes and senile dementia in the present day European population?

BTW, I have to second catsmate1's post.

[Elizabeth I]

So then I assume you believe the sin of the Holocaust did not increase the amount of strokes or physical ailments among the millions of Jews who experienced it.

You are so funny. It's quite likely that some Jews in the concentration camps died of strokes but there was no sin involved, just neglect and non-existent medical care.

And please note that I said that you are funny, not the Holocaust. I clarify only because you sometimes seem to have a reading comprehension problem.

[Sun Countess]

Not to most of the 82% of Americans and the 52% of Europeans who say they believe in God.

I would imagine the above people would say the Holocaust is a sin.
First, the number of people believing in something has no bearing on whether that something is imaginary or real. Hundreds of thousands of Scientologists believe that body thetans are real (and are responsible for people wanting to do bad things, similar to the Christian concept of sin): does that make them real?

Also, what does the Holocaust have to do with anything? That was a horrible evil. Your list of imaginary sins includes such things as mixing fibers, eating shellfish, fornicating, and thinking negative thoughts. The vast majority of sins are activities which cause no harm and have no victims.

It's considered a crime ... tried in court, not in church, by judges and lawyers, not pastors and elders. This.

So then I assume you believe the sin of the Holocaust did not increase the amount of strokes or physical ailments among the millions of Jews who experienced it. The evil of the holocaust increased the amount of death, disease, and suffering of its (primarily Jewish) victims. Were the Jews the ones who were sinning and needed to pay the price for these sins in your twisted philosophy? And why would you assume that other people aren't able to use consistent logic to draw conclusions?

Sin is a made-up concept, and none of the people who committed the "sins" of the Holocaust are paying for them through some sort of cosmic punishment system. None of the perpetrators was able to apologize to Jesus and get to Heaven, and none of the perpetrators is currently suffering through an eternity of hellfire. In case you're missing a step, I'm saying the heaven and hell are also completely imaginary concepts, and no matter how many people believe in them, they simply do not exist.

Not according to Jesus who said not everyone who says Lord, Lord, with enter the kingdom of heaven.

He also talked of those who had Him on their lips but not in their hearts. And what did Jesus say about who makes the decisions about who gets to this imaginary heaven? I'm pretty sure it says something about not judging other people, and also not bearing false witness or taking God's name in vain. That means you're not allowed to say something that DOC wants to say, and pretending that you have God's weight behind it. I think it's a pretty stupid commandment myself, so don't feel bad on my account for breaking it so often.

[TimCallahan]

Tonight I e-mailed Dr. Hans-Ulrich Witchen, who headed up the study cited by DOC in the OP. I asked him if he had any breakdown of what percentage of the 38% of Europeans who suffered from mental illness were suffering from strokes and various dementias and what percentage suffered from anxiety, depression and substance abuse. Hopefully, he will respond to my e-mail and give me a substantive answer.

[Leif Roar]

The article in question can be found here (http://www.ecnp.eu/~/media/Files/ecnp/communication/reports/ECNP%20EBC%20Report.ashx), by the way.

[edge]

Edge,
Do you agree with DOC's argument that strokes are a result of sin?

Yes and no, because it's a gray area.
If a stroke is from a result of gluttony, then yes.

[laca]

Yes and no, because it's a gray area.


Pun intended?


If a stroke is from a result of gluttony, then yes.

So your rock-hard stance is that if a stroke (physical illness) is provably caused by something you label as sin, then it is caused by sin? Wow, how long did you think about that answer?

[Edward Palamar]

The bottom line in determining the ratio from the text of the Gospel can be seen easiest in this, of Christ's own words : "Worry not".

[edge]

Sin is a completely made-up concept. And please stop using weasly words, such as "maybe" and "if." Stand up for what you believe in. Say it straight out. I get that you take your cues from your imaginary god who never says things directly, but sends very confusing signals, such as earthquakes and mental illness statistics that include insomnia so that his followers can mangle them, especially when they try to insert causations into any dubious correlations.

DOC, are you ever worried that the worst sin of all is reading messages into random and natural events? Or maybe it's placing the blame for all the world's ills on other people believing and behaving in ways that you don't like. You seem to hate the Muslims for demonizing women, yet you demonize women, Muslims, atheists, and people who practice voodoo.



That's because it's easy to get believers to believe any ridiculous something as long as it fits into their worldview and doesn't inconvenience them too much. I don't see believers asking for their own rights to be stripped from them, or saying that earthquakes and mental illness are due to their own sinful lifestyles. Maybe if they stopped being so judgmental and got out of everybody else's business, we'd have fewer earthquakes and hurricanes.**



**Not that I believe this, but the believers should at least think about it if they didn't want to seem like raging hypocrites. Oh wait. I see where I made my mistake.
In yellow above:
Replace the word sin with bad life choices or lifestyle.

In answer to what's in bold:
Being an observer and trying to follow a good lifestyle is not being judgmental, it's learning from others bad choices, whether you follow biblical principalities that are in agreement with science or not or one or the other, right is right and wrong is wrong, there is no middle ground that is absolutely correct, there are causes and effects to some degree.

[joobz]

Yes and no, because it's a gray area.
If a stroke is from a result of gluttony, then yes.
In other words, there is no relationship between labeling something as "a sin" and it leading to strokes.
I fully agree.

[edge]

Pun intended?



So your rock-hard stance is that if a stroke (physical illness) is provably caused by something you label as sin, then it is caused by sin? Wow, how long did you think about that answer?

About two seconds, so why ask?

[edge]

The bottom line in determining the ratio from the text of the Gospel can be seen easiest in this, of Christ's own words : "Worry not".

Yep!
Worry comes from where?;)

[Sun Countess]

In yellow above:
Replace the word sin with bad life choices or lifestyle.
According to whom? My lifestyle is a pretty boring one, frankly, and it may be a very bad choice for someone else. Somebody else's lifestyle choices may be bad for me. I don't drink or smoke, but I also mix my fabrics and eat pork. According to your god's rules, the drinking and smoking would actually be okay, and I'm "sinning" because of the fabrics and dietary choices. "Sin" is a completely made-up concept, and every person has different ideas of what constitutes a bad life choice or lifestyle.

Do you believe that people making different lifestyle choices than the ones laid out by your particular god are in any way responsible for all the ills of the world, from the earthquakes and hurricanes, to the rates of insomnia and dementia?



In answer to what's in bold:
Being an observer and trying to follow a good lifestyle is not being judgmental, it's learning from others bad choices, whether you follow biblical principalities that are in agreement with science or not or one or the other, right is right and wrong is wrong, there is no middle ground that is absolutely correct, there are causes and effects to some degree. It is being judgmental. Because you're saying that some choices are good and others are bad. I personally don't like tattoos. If other people want them, that's fine by me. If I'm tsk-tsking people who get tattoos then I'm being judgmental for no reason whatsoever, and I've now put myself out as a worse "sinner" than the people I'm judging. Why do I care if somebody else decides to get a tattoo or forgo eating meat? Why do you care if somebody else believes in the same mythology that you do? I don't need others to fit my mold, and I don't want to be pushed into somebody else's. Yet, religion is all about trying to shove everybody into the same mold, and then shaming and judging people who are "different" and then pinning the ills of the world or their own lives onto their lifestyle. There is no god out there punishing "bad" people with insomnia and strokes, or punishing entire cities with hurricanes and tornadoes.

[laca]

About two seconds, so why ask?

Because it's a useless tautology, so it's not even worth mentioning.

[TimCallahan]

The article in question can be found here (http://www.ecnp.eu/~/media/Files/ecnp/communication/reports/ECNP%20EBC%20Report.ashx), by the way.

Thanks. Here's a relevant excerpt from the article:

It is estimated that each year 38.2% of the EU population suffers from a mental disorder. Adjusted for age and comorbidity, this corresponds to 164.8 million persons affected. Compared to 2005 (27.4%) this higher estimate is entirely due to the inclusion of 14 new disorders also covering childhood/adolescence as well as the elderly. The estimated higher number of persons affected (2011: 165 m vs. 2005: 82 m) is due to coverage of childhood and old age populations, new disorders and of new EU membership states. The most frequent disorders are anxiety disorders (14.0%), insomnia (7.0%), major depression (6.9%), somatoform (6.3%), alcohol and drug dependence (N4%), ADHD (5%) in the young, and dementia (1–30%, depending on age).

Taking from this excerpt the following rates . . .

Anxiety 14%
insomnia 7%
Depression 7%
substance abuse 4%

. . . we get 32%.

I've excluded somatoform (6.3%), ADHD (5%) and dementia (1–30%, depending on age). There's a discrepancy here, in that adding the somatoform (strokes, etc.) and ADHD rates of, respectively, 6.3% and 5%, i get 11.3%. Subtracting 11% from European study, gives us a rate of 27%, which equals the WEBMD's report on the 2005 study of mental illness (anxiety, depression, eating disorders and substance abuse) in the U.S.

While there's a problem comparing a study from 2005 with one from 2011, I still submit, DOC, that you've failed to prove your point.

[Edward Palamar]

Yep!
Worry comes from where?;)
At this point in time, worry can be seen coming from being disobedient to Christ, Who has directly given us a command not to worry. The more that the commandment not to worry is disobeyed, the more mental illness.

It is easily seen then, that there is a direct relation to secularism (as an opposition to the one religion) and the rise of mental problems.

[Twiler]

At this point in time, worry can be seen coming from being disobedient to Christ, Who has directly given us a command not to worry. The more that the commandment not to worry is disobeyed, the more mental illness.

It is easily seen then, that there is a direct relation to secularism (as an opposition to the one religion) and the rise of mental problems.

Unless being told not to worry causes further worry, in which case issuing that order causes people to disobey it, in which case there is a direct relation between mental problems and this one religion of many religions.

[six7s]

Thou shall not read this post

[Elizabeth I]

Replace the word sin with bad life choices or lifestyle.

"Sin" does not equal "unfortunate choice" or "unhealthy lifestyle".

[truethat]

If you mean that events which in the past would have been labeled religious experiences are now being labeled mental disorders, then I could see that as a possibility. But do you have any evidence to suggest this is actually what is happening?

This is actually what I was thinking as well. Religious beliefs are mental illnesses to me. So for example if you believe that God is helping you out all the time and miracles are happening, that is a state of euphoria that can also be part of the manic depressive state which I have seen in many many of my religious friends. When they pray and something good happens they are elated only to crash when something is not solved as they wished then they ponder what they did wrong and what message God is trying to tell them.


It also seems that it's pretty much ok to act completely insane as long as you are giving it up to God or Jesus or Allah or whoever. But this sort of delusional behavior is pretty much tolerated because of religious beliefs. Now that more and more people don't have them, the excited deluded are starting to seem out of place and weird and are probably being encouraged by employers and family to seek out professional help.

[laca]

At this point in time, worry can be seen coming from being disobedient to Christ, Who has directly given us a command not to worry. The more that the commandment not to worry is disobeyed, the more mental illness.


Why should I obey a lunatic? Furthermore, if you choose to obey him, why don't you obey him completely? Lest you catch some of those mental illnesses...

There's the contradiction too, that the less you worry, the bigger your problems get, hence more worry. :boggled:


It is easily seen then, that there is a direct relation to secularism (as an opposition to the one religion) and the rise of mental problems.

No.

[Craig B]

The bottom line in determining the ratio from the text of the Gospel can be seen easiest in this, of Christ's own words : "Worry not". It's all very well for you as the resurrected and prophesied Peter the Roman not to worry, but the rest of us are not so fortunate.

[Kopji]

At this point in time, worry can be seen coming from being disobedient to Christ, Who has directly given us a command not to worry. The more that the commandment not to worry is disobeyed, the more mental illness.

It is easily seen then, that there is a direct relation to secularism (as an opposition to the one religion) and the rise of mental problems.

"From the passions arise worry, and from worry arises fear. Away with the passions, and no fear, no worry." The Buddha, Sutra 42

Long before Christianity came on the scene there was much wisdom written about worry, and much of it was from secular sources. So this makes your argument about it being original to Christianity rather specious.

[Kopji]

And another. Somewhat longer for context.


...Our words fly off like arrows, as though we knew what was right and wrong. We cling to our own point of view, as though everything depended on it. And yet our opinions have no permanence: like autumn and winter, they gradually pass away. We are caught in the current and cannot return. We are tied up in knots like an old clogged drain; we are getting closer to death with no way to regain our youth. Joy and anger, sorrow and happiness, hope and fear, indecision and strength, humility and willfulness, enthusiasm and insolance, like music sounding from an empty reed or mushrooms rising from the warm dark earth, continually appear before us day and night. No one knows whence they come. Don't worry about it! Let them be! How can we understand it all in one day?

Chuang Tsu, Taoist poet circa 400 BCE
Inner Chapters
A new translation by Gia-Fu Feng & Jane English

[zooterkin]

At this point in time, worry can be seen coming from being disobedient to Christ, Who has directly given us a command not to worry. The more that the commandment not to worry is disobeyed, the more mental illness.

It is easily seen then, that there is a direct relation to secularism (as an opposition to the one religion) and the rise of mental problems.

"The one religion"? Which one (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominations) would that be? And what would you expect to see in non-Christian, but religious, countries for mental health levels?

[edge]

"From the passions arise worry, and from worry arises fear. Away with the passions, and no fear, no worry." The Buddha, Sutra 42

Long before Christianity came on the scene there was much wisdom written about worry, and much of it was from secular sources. So this makes your argument about it being original to Christianity rather specious.

Why because they are in agreement?
All religions have some of the truth, but not all the truth.
Jesus said worry is from the devil/evil side of principalities.
Let Jesus guide you and place it in his hands, not in the world.
Worry means lack of faith in God and Jesus.
We all still will worry though, to a point.

[edge]

"Sin" does not equal "unfortunate choice" or "unhealthy lifestyle".

I said bad choices not unfortunate; unfortunate would be some one being a victim of someone else’s bad choices.
That person is innocent.
If you know that eating 300lbs of food in a week is bad for you and glutinous then that is bad for you and your temple and it is written that gluttony is a sin/bad, plus science says it is, it is a sin as described if you knowingly have all this information.
Some one who is 800lbs has a mental issue.
Some one who kills 30 people has a mental issue.
The person who works their employees to the point of collapsing has or may have a problem.
Apply that to anything you know that is bad for you and we all fall short, because we are all emotional creatures, push it the a limit and you get crazy.
If you are talking about OT rules as some have done then you haven’t seen that most of this was cultural and meant for the ancient Hebrews.
Even they couldn’t follow all their own cultural rules as written, who could or would?
Because of continues failures and lack of total understanding of God is the exact reason why Jesus the messiah had to come to us.
They had most of the ways of God wrong and failed.
The Poor are not concerned with what they wear or eat, just the fact that they had clothing and something to eat was provided as all is given for us to use not just Cotton.
They knew this from Noah.
So how did they not get this later?
What happened?
Another cultures influence perhaps?

[Mojo]

At this point in time, worry can be seen coming from being disobedient to Christ, Who has directly given us a command not to worry. The more that the commandment not to worry is disobeyed, the more mental illness.


If this is the case, then religion causes mental illness. Without the religion, the "commandment" would not matter.

[edge]

According to whom? My lifestyle is a pretty boring one, frankly, and it may be a very bad choice for someone else. Somebody else's lifestyle choices may be bad for me. I don't drink or smoke, but I also mix my fabrics and eat pork. According to your god's rules, the drinking and smoking would actually be okay, and I'm "sinning" because of the fabrics and dietary choices. "Sin" is a completely made-up concept, and every person has different ideas of what constitutes a bad life choice or lifestyle.

Do you believe that people making different lifestyle choices than the ones laid out by your particular god are in any way responsible for all the ills of the world, from the earthquakes and hurricanes, to the rates of insomnia and dementia?
It is being judgmental. Because you're saying that some choices are good and others are bad. I personally don't like tattoos. If other people want them, that's fine by me. If I'm tsk-tsking people who get tattoos then I'm being judgmental for no reason whatsoever, and I've now put myself out as a worse "sinner" than the people I'm judging. Why do I care if somebody else decides to get a tattoo or forgo eating meat? Why do you care if somebody else believes in the same mythology that you do? I don't need others to fit my mold, and I don't want to be pushed into somebody else's. Yet, religion is all about trying to shove everybody into the same mold, and then shaming and judging people who are "different" and then pinning the ills of the world or their own lives onto their lifestyle. There is no god out there punishing "bad" people with insomnia and strokes, or punishing entire cities with hurricanes and tornadoes.


I believe that people go crazy because they are lost and at a dead, and I repeat dead end to their lives and without hope.
No other religion gives us hope and a way to redemption.
In yellow, whose rules the Hebrew’s or Jesus?
In bold above:
Are Muslims and their religion a cause for worry today?
I think Christians learned a lesson years ago where the Muslims haven’t and are on the right way or path to spread the gospels as they were meant.
Tattoos and body altering:
To stay on the right path according to what is written about that is a tough one.
First if it appears to be judgmental, it is, first to the person following what is right or wrong.
First it is tribal and we are meant to be Christians therefore I have to make a judgment call.
Now you have to keep in mind that what you mark as permanent will be.
It’s about what those enhancements are reveling to other people and to God.
What it means to you or the person with enhancements is about your heart.
What do you think about Casey’s As. tats?

Is it Crazy?
In her position was it a sane thing at that time to do?

It’s not me you have explaining to do about your/their enhancements but to God.
This is the way I look at it, but don’t wander over half naked in front of my children with Daimler tattooed on your back, that would be wrong.
Then you have those types who are even more extreme in the fact that they are changing their structures like the face for instance to look like an animal.

The only thing I have to say is I have enough to explain let alone an add on.
These things cross more than one or two lines and I am glad I figured it out early.
I really have no need to worry about these things myself and I am giving you the reasons why I don’t do this.


Lots of people figure this out after they have done this and change it or cover the bad with good, change of heart is good, and correcting mistakes about ourselves is a good thing, mistakes happen.
Then there’s the question of religious tattoos?

[edge]

If this is the case, then religion causes mental illness. Without the religion, the "commandment" would not matter.

It might if you are fanatical.

[Mojo]

It might if you are fanatical.


Why would anyone be fanatical about Christ's "commandment" not to worry without religion?

[TimCallahan]

Edge: This thread isn't about whether or not its a sin to worry. In his OP, DOC contended that Europe's high rate of mental illness stemmed from a decline in religion. I pointed out that once strokes, dementias and ADHD are removed, European rates are comparable to U.S. rates in studies that did not include those conditions. Ergo, DOC hasn't proved his point. The evidence does not, after all, support his view. I also pointed out that, with comparable rates of church attendance, Canada and the U.S. had widely varying rates of mental illness, the U.S. rate being more than twice that of Canada. Thus, this evidence contradicts his claim that higher rates of mental illness reflect a decline in religion. I don't recall DOC rebutting my argument.

BTW, the last time I checked, sin involved a deliberate, free-will, choice to commit an unethical act or, in the view of Jesus, even to indulge unethical thoughts. I don't know of anyone who deliberately chooses to worry. Therefore, worrying cannot be a sin. QED.

[Kopji]

Why because they are in agreement?
All religions have some of the truth, but not all the truth.
Jesus said worry is from the devil/evil side of principalities.
Let Jesus guide you and place it in his hands, not in the world.
Worry means lack of faith in God and Jesus.
We all still will worry though, to a point.

Hi edge,
'not worry' was said a long time before Christianity by many people, religious and not. It is begging the question to assert a special authority or revelation of Christianity, when in actuality it added it's voice to a long list. The Bible says plenty of things I agree with, but that does not elevate it over many other fine books written throughout history.

The point of the thread implies that religion has a monopoly or advantage on wisdom about mental health... or fosters mental health, or cures bad mental health... perhaps religion stays up late eradicating mental illness from the world while we sleep... holy elves pound away unseen at making shoes that provide mental health if we would only wear them. But my earlier post showed that this was not the case, and that in a survey from a site that actually, is fairly apologetic of religious values - mental illness issues were mostly invisible to religion.

If there is any relationship, and I have not really been convinced here yet that there is, it might be as likely that prevalence of religion suppresses reports of mental illness. Religion can be rather frightening to people who in some countries are subject to torturous and violent rites by well meaning practitioners.

Or perhaps we have defined mental illness in a way that biases us toward religious solutions. 'Sanity' is best expressed by belief in a supernatural deity that punishes the wicked and rewards the good and just. We might be poor, hungry, and unjustly treated - but that will all get better in a life beyond this one, God is in his heaven, if we will only accept our given lot in this life and be happy.

What oppressive business, government, or authority would not want to promote such a view as sanity?

[joobz]

Well it seems obvious that the conclusion of this evidence is:
1. there is insufficient evidence to claim that there is an increase in mental health diseases in the EU.
2. There is insufficient evidence to claim that the EU has a higher % of mental health diseases than the US or other nations.
3. there is no logical mechanism to suggest that the number of diverse mental health diseases are a result of religiosity.

[Edward Palamar]

Unless being told not to worry causes further worry, in which case issuing that order causes people to disobey it, in which case there is a direct relation between mental problems and this one religion of many religions.That is a contorted "unless" lacking any logic. The use of imperative as applied from any x to any y will result in a success rate of 0% to 100% everytime. It is on this simple basis whether sanity is maintained with respect to Christ.

There is only one God, Faith, and Religion.

[Edward Palamar]

It's all very well for you as the resurrected and prophesied Peter the Roman not to worry, but the rest of us are not so fortunate.I am not slighted. Faith works the same either before and/or after Resurrection. Christ showed us this when He allowed Thomas to doubt and test saying, "Blessed are they who have not seen, yet believe."

[Edward Palamar]

"From the passions arise worry, and from worry arises fear. Away with the passions, and no fear, no worry." The Buddha, Sutra 42

Long before Christianity came on the scene there was much wisdom written about worry, and much of it was from secular sources. So this makes your argument about it being original to Christianity rather specious.The writings, as was all else, were from Christ's Father.

Worry is disordered passion of the mind.

[Edward Palamar]

"The one religion"? Which one (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominations) would that be? And what would you expect to see in non-Christian, but religious, countries for mental health levels?In the best of sanity, it cannot be denied that there is only one God, one Faith, and one Religion. Think about it. Quoting a fluctuating source (as wiki is) only indicates that the variance is currently in favor of fragmented rather than wholistic thinking.

[Edward Palamar]

If this is the case, then religion causes mental illness. Without the religion, the "commandment" would not matter.Disobedience to Christ causes mental illness as well as similar problems. Christ has assured us that any sin committed against Him will be forgiven, but He did not say that if we choose to disobey Him, there would not be consequences.

The same was true even before Christ received the power and religion was still dependent upon the same one God.

[Craig B]

I am not slighted. Faith works the same either before and/or after Resurrection. Christ showed us this when He allowed Thomas to doubt and test saying, "Blessed are they who have not seen, yet believe."

Thomas (allegedly - the incident is known only to the flagrantly unhistorical John) DID "see". If Jesus wants me to believe, he should allow me to test too. He must not say, I have permitted other people to test and they believed, but you will be all the more blessed if you don't test, and still believe.

That's nuts. No deal, Jesus.

[dafydd]

Disobedience to Christ causes mental illness as well as similar problems. Christ has assured us that any sin committed against Him will be forgiven, but He did not say that if we choose to disobey Him, there would not be consequences.

The same was true even before Christ received the power and religion was still dependent upon the same one God.

Nonsense. I have known believers who were as mad as hatters. I have come across quite few here too.

[Craig4]

At this point in time, worry can be seen coming from being disobedient to Christ, Who has directly given us a command not to worry. The more that the commandment not to worry is disobeyed, the more mental illness.

It is easily seen then, that there is a direct relation to secularism (as an opposition to the one religion) and the rise of mental problems.

That one is going to require some footnotes. Where's the data on this relationship?

[Mashuna]

At this point in time, worry can be seen coming from being disobedient to Christ, Who has directly given us a command not to worry. The more that the commandment not to worry is disobeyed, the more mental illness.

It is easily seen then, that there is a direct relation to secularism (as an opposition to the one religion) and the rise of mental problems.

I think you've confused Christ with Bobby McFerrin there.

[joobz]

Disobedience to Christ causes mental illness as well as similar problems. Christ has assured us that any sin committed against Him will be forgiven, but He did not say that if we choose to disobey Him, there would not be consequences.

The same was true even before Christ received the power and religion was still dependent upon the same one God.
This claim has the logical result that 4.0-5billion people in the world are mentally ill.

Since we know this not to be true by the study performed, your claim is blatantly false.

[Mojo]

Disobedience to Christ causes mental illness as well as similar problems.


[citation needed]

[Edward Palamar]

If Jesus wants me to believe, he should allow me to test too.He does allow you to test, too, through St. Thomas. How long do you need to hold your hand over the fire to know that it is hot?

[Akhenaten]

There is only one God, Faith, and Religion.





Well that's wrong.

[Akhenaten]

In the best of sanity, it cannot be denied that there is only one God, one Faith, and one Religion.





Yes it can.



Think about it.





I have. You're wrong.



Quoting a fluctuating source (as wiki is) only indicates that the variance is currently in favor of fragmented rather than wholistic thinking.





Can you break that down for me?

[Craig B]

He does allow you to test, too, through St. Thomas. How long do you need to hold your hand over the fire to know that it is hot?

Well, he can send Thomas to hell for me and let him find out how hot it is, in my place. But I think you misunderstand what is meant by "test". You test for yourself, not "through" other people. For in that case I would need to believe anything other people had "tested". Like shamans experiencing the spirit world, and stuff. They tested it for me. Must be true!

[joobz]

He does allow you to test, too, through St. Thomas. that's not a test, that's a story.

[Foster Zygote]

I am not slighted. Faith works the same either before and/or after Resurrection. Christ showed us this when He allowed Thomas to doubt and test saying, "Blessed are they who have not seen, yet believe."

If I was writing a work of fiction and I wanted to convince people to believe something that I had no evidence of, I might also work in a bit of praise for those who accept things without reason.

[Foster Zygote]

In the best of sanity, it cannot be denied that there is only one God, one Faith, and one Religion. Think about it. Quoting a fluctuating source (as wiki is) only indicates that the variance is currently in favor of fragmented rather than wholistic thinking.

You might want to read up a bit on the subject of Biblical textual criticism. The Bible is famous as a fluctuating source.

[Elizabeth I]

He does allow you to test, too, through St. Thomas. How long do you need to hold your hand over the fire to know that it is hot?

Well, first I need a fire. Holding my hand over the empty ground gives me nothing but an eventual tired arm.

[joobz]

Well, first I need a fire. Holding my hand over the empty ground gives me nothing but an eventual tired arm.

The analogy Edward used is both flawed and a bit insulting.

1.) As you rightly point out, we don't even have evidence for the cause (e.g., god). Hence, the analogy to fire (something we know is there) is off.
2.) He claims that Thomas did the test for us, so we don't have to. This is completely different than us testing the hottness of fire for ourselves. It would be like expecting us to take someone else's word for it that fire is hot, which leads us to point 3.
3.) We expect children to listen to us and trust us that fire is hot. Yet, most will have to learn on their own this lesson. Here is the insulting part. the obvious subtext of Edward is that we are being like children for not taking his word for it. But we learn from experience not just that fire is hot, but that conmen exist. That people lie, that people deceive themselves and others. It is through this repeated lesson in history that I (And skeptics in general) do NOT take others' words for it. We must have evidence. Evidence that is readily verifiable and testable. without this, a story is a story is a story. From Moby Dick to Jurassic Park to the gospel of Luke.

[Craig4]

He does allow you to test, too, through St. Thomas. How long do you need to hold your hand over the fire to know that it is hot?

Fire is readily accessible. A supernatural being is somewhat less so.

[Mojo]

He does allow you to test, too, through St. Thomas.


v4DTR0I7xhA

You're right! Sonny Rollins is God!

[TimCallahan]

It would appear that DOC has left the building.

[Edward Palamar]

Like shamans experiencing the spirit world, and stuff. They tested it for me.You post a page of your favorite shaman manual, then maybe we can continue along those lines. There is not a single scientist who has performed every test of scientific theory alone. Now several here propose to change that precedent.

[joobz]

You post a page of your favorite shaman manual, then maybe we can continue along those lines. There is not a single scientist who has performed every test of scientific theory alone. Now several here propose to change that precedent.

I have never seen, nor do I know of anyone who has seen a person come back from the dead. Evidence is against you on this one, Edward. I recommend not invoking science.

[DOC]

Edge,
Do you agree with DOC's argument that strokes are a result of sin?Actually I never said this -- another of joobz' many strawmen. I have to believe your doing this on purpose just to get a response, but in the process you are hurting your credibility and image.

But I do believe many (I do not know if all of them are) are caused by the sin of humanity. And that includes not just personal sin but the sin of society as well. A societal sin could be indifference to the poor, or lack of proper medical care by a society that could afford proper medical care for its people.

Also there is the sin of omission. For example everyone might say how great Bill Gates is to give a certain amount to charity. But if he for example gives 2 billion but could actually afford to give 10 billion then that is a sin of omission.

[Elizabeth I]

Actually I never said this -- another of joobz' many strawmen. I have to believe your doing this on purpose just to get a response, but in the process you are hurting your credibility and image.

But I do believe many (I do not know if all of them are) are caused by the sin of humanity. And that includes not just personal sin but the sin of society as well. A societal sin could be indifference to the poor, or lack of proper medical care by a society that could afford proper medical care for its people.

Also there is the sin of omission. For example everyone might say how great Bill Gates is to give a certain amount to charity. But if he for example gives 2 billion but could actually afford to give 10 billion then that is a sin of omission.

doc, you should give it up. Compared to other people now infesting this subforum *cough* novest *cough* you're a piker.

[Akhenaten]

Actually I never said this -- another of joobz' many strawmen. I have to believe your doing this on purpose just to get a response, but in the process you are hurting your credibility and image.





So then I assume you believe the sin of the Holocaust did not increase the amount of strokes or physical ailments among the millions of Jews who experienced it.





Surely it's reasonable to assume that your accusatory tone here indicates that you believe the opposite of the above to be true. ie, the sin of the Holocaust did increase the amount of strokes, etcetera.



But I do believe many (I do not know if all of them are) are caused by the sin of humanity. And that includes not just personal sin but the sin of society as well. A societal sin could be indifference to the poor, or lack of proper medical care by a society that could afford proper medical care for its people.





Sin is one of those magic words that can mean whatever you want it to, is it, DOC? You should take up ufology.



Also there is the sin of omission. For example everyone might say how great Bill Gates is to give a certain amount to charity. But if he for example gives 2 billion but could actually afford to give 10 billion then that is a sin of omission.





Drivel.

[Akhenaten]

I have to believe your doing this on purpose just to get a response, but in the process you are hurting your credibility and image.






http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/209954c4152e2ee75d.gif (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=20434)

[dafydd]

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/thum_234094e76691593a79.jpg (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=24222)

[Mojo]

Actually I never said this -- another of joobz' many strawmen. I have to believe your doing this on purpose just to get a response, but in the process you are hurting your credibility and image.


Here you go: Personal and societal sin could be a contributing factor to the causing of physical disorders. For example if highly processed foods are a sin and eating highly processed foods all of your life contribute to stroke or depression, then sin was the ultimate cause of those physical diseases.

If overworking your employees is a sin. Then the physical strokes which might have been caused by that overwork is related to sin even though it is physical in nature.

[dafydd]

Actually I never said this --

Oh yes you did. Do you think that we all as dumb as the average believer?

[joobz]

-- another of joobz' many strawmen.
An unsubstantiated accusation.

But I do believe many (I do not know if all of them are) are caused by the sin of humanity.
"Sin of Humanity"?
Are you now saying that simply being Human is a sin? Isn't that the most bizarre idea.

So you are claiming strokes are caused by sin. That's what I said.

And that includes not just personal sin but the sin of society as well. A societal sin could be indifference to the poor, or lack of proper medical care by a society that could afford proper medical care for its people.
DOC, strokes have been around for thousands of years. If having poor medical care is a sin, than it's god's sin for not telling people about germ theory and modern medical practices.

Also there is the sin of omission. For example everyone might say how great Bill Gates is to give a certain amount to charity. But if he for example gives 2 billion but could actually afford to give 10 billion then that is a sin of omission.this is oddly off topic nonsense. especially since you are one of the biggest culprits of this "sin of omission".

For instance, You have omitted providing actual evidence of me making strawmen arguments. For shame!!!!!:D

[catsmate1]

Actually I never said this -- another of joobz' many strawmen. I have to believe your doing this on purpose just to get a response, but in the process you are hurting your credibility and image.

Outright lying, standard wooster tactic #3.
Denying what you've said previously when it's brought sup, standard wooster tactic #5.

[Leif Roar]

He does allow you to test, too, through St. Thomas. How long do you need to hold your hand over the fire to know that it is hot?

That's a horrible argument. Nobody above the age of six have to take it on faith that a fire is hot: they'll know fire is hot because they've had direct, physical experience of the fact in the past.

There's a reason why the proverb goes "A burnt child dreads fire" rather than "A child who has it on good authority from St. Thomas that fire is hot and will cause pain, dreads fire."

[dafydd]

Outright lying, standard wooster tactic #3.
Denying what you've said previously when it's brought sup, standard wooster tactic #5.

As a P.G. Wodehouse fan I take exception to the word wooster in this context.:)

[TimCallahan]

Actually I never said this -- another of joobz' many strawmen. I have to believe your doing this on purpose just to get a response, but in the process you are hurting your credibility and image.[QUOTE]

Mojo (see post above) has already pointed out that you used strokes as an example of societal sin. Specifically, you cited overworking employees. Of course, that would actually apply to the U.S. more than Europe. Another contributing factor in strokes is age. Thus, the longer the average lifespan in any society, the higher the percentage of the population suffering from strokes.

[QUOTE] But I do believe many (I do not know if all of them are) are caused by the sin of humanity. And that includes not just personal sin but the sin of society as well. A societal sin could be indifference to the poor, or lack of proper medical care by a society that could afford proper medical care for its people.

Also there is the sin of omission. For example everyone might say how great Bill Gates is to give a certain amount to charity. But if he for example gives 2 billion but could actually afford to give 10 billion then that is a sin of omission.

Concerning the hilited areas above: First, a general sin of humanity would seem to imply original sin, which, of course, should affect all of us equally.

As to societal sin, particularly the ones you cite, indifference to the poor and lack of medical care for its people; again, this fits the U.S. far more than Europe. It also fits the U.S. far more even than Canada. Perhaps this explains the U.S. mental illness rate that is over twice Canada's, even though the two countries have comparable rates of church attendance and comparable standards of living.

Also, as I noted - and you have yet to respond to this - once strokes and dementias are removed, the 38% of the European population suffering from mental illness drops down to about 27%, comparable to the rate of mental illness in the U. S. in an earlier study that also didn't include strokes and dementias.

Finally, do you really have any information on Bill Gates, or is this all hypothetical?

[edge]

Surely it's reasonable to assume that your accusatory tone here indicates that you believe the opposite of the above to be true. ie, the sin of the Holocaust did increase the amount of strokes, etcetera.





Sin is one of those magic words that can mean whatever you want it to, is it, DOC? You should take up ufology.



Drivel.

Akhenaten

Were going to call you Drivel Man, [AK Drivel Man] from now on, must be your favorite word?

When you come to the table this is all you bring. Drivel.
Sin is what is in opposition against pure morality.

[zooterkin]

Akhenaten

Were going to call you Drivel Man, [AK Drivel Man] from now on, must be your favorite word?

When you come to the table this is all you bring. Drivel.
Sin is what is in opposition against pure morality.

Or possibly there's a reason why you see the word a lot in reply to your and DOC's posts.

[catsmate1]

As a P.G. Wodehouse fan I take exception to the word wooster in this context.:)
I know and I'm sorry for the insult to Wodehouse (and Hugh Laurie for his portrayal of that man-about-town). However I find the term just too appropriate for certain purveyors of woo.

[joobz]

Akhenaten

Were going to call you Drivel Man, [AK Drivel Man] from now on, must be your favorite word?

When you come to the table this is all you bring. Drivel.
Edge,
Except for DOC, you are likely alone in that opinion.


Sin is what is in opposition against pure morality.
odd, Considering that "pure morality" has changed throughout the centuries, we can assume that sin does as well.

[Edward Palamar]

Fire is readily accessible. A supernatural being is somewhat less so.Which is why Christ says "While ye have the light," (Who is Christ Jesus), "walk with the light."

[Elizabeth I]

Which is why Christ says "While ye have the light," (Who is Christ Jesus), "walk with the light."

Kind of puts the kibosh on your "fire is hot" argument, doesn't it?

[dafydd]

I know and I'm sorry for the insult to Wodehouse (and Hugh Laurie for his portrayal of that man-about-town). However I find the term just too appropriate for certain purveyors of woo.

I prefer the term 'delusionaut'.

[dafydd]

Which is why Christ says "While ye have the light," (Who is Christ Jesus), "walk with the light."

Said. If he ever existed then he has been brown bread for a long time.

[Multivac]

In the best of sanity, it cannot be denied that there is only one God, one Faith, and one Religion. Think about it. Quoting a fluctuating source (as wiki is) only indicates that the variance is currently in favor of fragmented rather than wholistic thinking.

Of course it can be denied. Billions of people on this planet either do not believe in any god, or believe in a different god. These people are called atheists, budhists, seiks, muslims etc.

[Multivac]

The writings, as was all else, were from Christ's Father.

Didn't know that Joseph had written anything.

[Edward Palamar]

Of course it can be denied. Billions of people on this planet either do not believe in any god, or believe in a different god. These people are called atheists, budhists, seiks, muslims etc.
Keywords here : "the best of sanity".

[joobz]

Keywords here : "the best of sanity".I understand that you are attempting to make your argument with clever, pithy posts. However, you are failing to communicate what you want to communicate. Your posts generally do not offer any logical connection to the posts they are responding to. In the instances they do, you fail to actually address the argument that was being made.

You may have a very lucid and well thought out argument. Perhaps you will change some opinions here, mine included. However, You are simply failing to convey anything of substance.

[dafydd]

Keywords here : "the best of sanity".

Elaborate please. That means nothing.

[Edward Palamar]

I maintain that an increase in secularism and decrease in religiosity could be a major reason.

And you are correct.

[Mashuna]

Keywords here : "the best of sanity".

Yep, even with that caveat, your statement is still incorrect. Possibly more so.

[joobz]

And you are correct.
He's not even correct about a trend. So how could he be correct about a relationship?

I sincerely recommend reading Tim's post on the topic. It summarizes what we DO know. It is clearly in opposition to what you want to be true.

[Roadtoad]

Is this a thread for a serious discussion of this topic, or is it simply here to boost the religitrolls' post counts?

So far, I have yet to see evidence that a lack or religious belief creates any kind of mental illness. Based on what I'm reading, there's a whole array of mental conditions that are being taken into account in the studies, and there's some variance as to how they rate in each one. Perhaps I'm missing something, but is there one study that actually qualifies as "Apples to Apples" in its applications? Just asking.

[Akhenaten]

Akhenaten

Were going to call you Drivel Man, [AK Drivel Man] from now on, must be your favorite word?

When you come to the table this is all you bring. Drivel.
Sin is what is in opposition against pure morality.





Piffle.

[pakeha]

...Sin is what is in opposition against pure morality.

Pure morality.
An interesting term.
Would you apply it to a man who tries to kill his own son, claiming god told him to do it?
How about a father who offers his daughters for a round of rape with the local bullies?

[welshdean]

Originally Posted by edge http://forums.randi.org/helloworld2purple/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=7590550#post7590550)
Akhenaten

Were going to call you Drivel Man, [AK Drivel Man] from now on, must be your favorite word?

When you come to the table this is all you bring. Drivel.
Sin is what is in opposition against pure morality.Piffle.

:D
That's why we love you man.

[Akhenaten]

:)

Cheers, mate.

[Mojo]

Based on what I'm reading, there's a whole array of mental conditions that are being taken into account in the studies, and there's some variance as to how they rate in each one. Perhaps I'm missing something, but is there one study that actually qualifies as "Apples to Apples" in its applications? Just asking.


Well, there's this from page 3 of the thread:
Nice graph here with the countries using comparable measures of mental illness:

http://www.equalitytrust.org.uk/why/evidence/mental-health


And this from page 2:
From your own source material:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5111202/

[welshdean]

:)

Cheers, mate.

Meh, just pm me with your paypal details.
;)

[Roadtoad]

Well, there's this from page 3 of the thread:



And this from page 2:

Thanks. I'll re-read it. I'm trying to keep up, but it's tough on the road.

(We're in Spokane, WA, tonight, if anyone's asking.)

[carlitos]

Martin Luther will be accountable for sins just like everyone else. I know of no modern Christian denominations that wouldn't denounce these Luther's teachings.

I can't speak for Missouri Synod, but ELCA was pretty big on Martin Luther last time I checked. The anti-Jew stuff wasn't very high on their sermon topic list though, to be fair.

[DOC]

Oh yes you did. Do you think that we all as dumb as the average believer?Joobz implied I said all strokes are cause by sin. That is just one of "many" inaccuracies about my positions that have been stated over the last year or so. In a way that encourages me because it shows me some skeptics are constantly forced to be inaccurate about my positions in order to appear to make an effective response.

[MRC_Hans]

Joobz implied I said all strokes are cause by sin. That is just one of "many" inaccuracies about my positions that have been stated over the last year or so. In a way that encourages me because it shows me some skeptics are constantly forced to be inaccurate about my positions in order to appear to make an effective response.

Sorry to disappoint you, but the reason is really that your positions are not very clear.

Hans

[DOC]

Sin is what is in opposition against pure morality.

Billy Graham has a simple definition of sin. It is anything contrary to the will of God.

[MRC_Hans]

Billy Graham has a simple definition of sin. It is anything contrary to the will of God.The will of God as interpreted by Billy Graham, no doubt. :rolleyes:

However, I have no problem with that definition. This implies that sin does not apply to a secular society, which is also OK. We have enough in morals.

Hans

[dafydd]

Billy Graham has a simple definition of sin. It is anything contrary to the will of God.

Billy Graham has a hotline to god?

[zooterkin]

Billy Graham has a simple definition of sin. It is anything contrary to the will of God.

And who determines what the will of God is?

[DOC]

If you don't like Billy Graham's simple definition, the Catholic church has a deeper definition of evil. The second paragraph alludes to mental suffering and is thus related to the thread topic.

From the Catholic Encyclopedia article on Evil

Evil, in a large sense, may be described as the sum of the opposition, which experience shows to exist in the universe, to the desires and needs of individuals; whence arises, among humans beings at least, the sufferings in which life abounds. Thus evil, from the point of view of human welfare, is what ought not to exist. Nevertheless, there is no department of human life in which its presence is not felt; and the discrepancy between what is and what ought to be has always called for explanation in the account which mankind has sought to give of itself and its surroundings. For this purpose it is necessary (1) to define the precise nature of the principle that imparts the character of evil to so great a variety of circumstances, and (2) to ascertain, as far as may be possible, to source from which it arises.

With regard to the nature of evil, it should be observed that evil is of three kinds — physical, moral, and metaphysical. Physical evil includes all that causes harm to man, whether by bodily injury, by thwarting his natural desires, or by preventing the full development of his powers, either in the order of nature directly, or through the various social conditions under which mankind naturally exists. Physical evils directly due to nature are sickness, accident, death, etc. Poverty, oppression, and some forms of disease are instances of evil arising from imperfect social organization. Mental suffering, such as anxiety, disappointment, and remorse, and the limitation of intelligence which prevents humans beings from attaining to the full comprehension of their environment, are congenital forms of evil each vary in character and degree according to natural disposition and social circumstances.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05649a.htm

[DrDave]

And who determines what the will of God is?

Billy Graham - duh!



;)

[MRC_Hans]

With regard to the nature of evil, it should be observed that evil is of three kinds — physical, moral, and metaphysical. Physical evil includes all that causes harm to man, whether by bodily injury, by thwarting his natural desires, or by preventing the full development of his powers, either in the order of nature directly, or through the various social conditions under which mankind naturally exists.My highlight.

That is an interesting passage! So, thwarting a man's natural desires is an evil. So much for celibacy. ;) Not strange they have all these paedophile scandals.

I wonder if the Catholic Church scholars actually read their own stuff. :rolleyes:

Hans

[DOC]

And who determines what the will of God is?The Bible which has been around for thousands of years and is the greatest selling book of all time (by most accounts) would seem like a good place to look for the will and the laws of God.

[DrDave]

The Bible which has been around for thousands of years and is the greatest selling book of all time (by most accounts) would seem like a good place to look for the will and the laws of God.

So god is happy for us to beat slaves. Cool

[MRC_Hans]

The Bible which has been around for thousands of years and is the greatest selling book of all time (by most accounts) would seem like a good place to look for the will and the laws of God.

As good as any, to be sure.

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim_meritt/bible-contradictions.html

:rolleyes:

Hans

[DrDave]

As good as any, to be sure.

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim_meritt/bible-contradictions.html

:rolleyes:

Hans
Hans,

If youve not followed the other thread are you in for a treat now. All those contradictions are evidence the bible is true. If it were fiction they'd have made sure the story was internally consistent, or something...

Dave

Eta: I realised I missed your point but I'm going to leave that post to ridicule docs position still

Dave

[DOC]

My highlight.

That is an interesting passage! So, thwarting a man's natural desires is an evil. So much for celibacy. ;) Not strange they have all these paedophile scandals.

I wonder if the Catholic Church scholars actually read their own stuff. :rolleyes:

Hans

Actually the Catholic policy on celibacy when it first began had more to do with economics than an aversion to sex. The church could save money if priests don't have to support a family, and they can also devote more time to their pastoral duties.

[DOC]

So god is happy for us to beat slaves. CoolI doubt God was happy when His people the Jews probably got beat when they were slaves for 400 years in Babylon and Egypt.

[Mashuna]

Billy Graham has a simple definition of sin. It is anything contrary to the will of God.

I can agree with this definition. Of course, that then means that I don't think sin exists.

[MRC_Hans]

Actually the Catholic policy on celibacy when it first began had more to do with economics than an aversion to sex. The church could save money if priests don't have to support a family, and they can also devote more time to their pastoral duties.

Oh, so it was not even some clash of doctrine? They actually, really, started to thwart the natural desires of all those men purely for economical reasons?? That is so evil, it must be the work of Satan! :eek:

Hans

[zooterkin]

I doubt God was happy when His people the Jews probably got beat when they were slaves for 400 years in Babylon and Egypt.

So God didn't create the Egyptians and Babylonians? Why would he care only about one bronze age tribe in one small corner of the world?





(Leaving aside the lack of evidence that what you described happened at all, of course.)

[Craig B]

The Bible which has been around for thousands of years and is the greatest selling book of all time (by most accounts) would seem like a good place to look for the will and the laws of God. Say you so? Then your God is a monster. Numbers 31: 3 So Moses said to the people, “Arm some of your men to go to war against the Midianites so that they may carry out the LORD’s vengeance on them. ... 7 They fought against Midian, as the LORD commanded Moses, and killed every man. ... 9 The Israelites captured the Midianite women and children and took all the Midianite herds, flocks and goods as plunder. ...14 Moses was angry with the officers of the army—the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds—who returned from the battle. 15 “Have you allowed all the women to live?” he asked them. 16 “They were the ones who followed Balaam’s advice and enticed the Israelites to be unfaithful to the LORD in the Peor incident, so that a plague struck the LORD’s people. 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man. ... 36 The half share of those who fought in the battle was: ... 40 16,000 people, of whom the tribute for the LORD was 32. 41 Moses gave the tribute to Eleazar the priest as the LORD’s part, as the LORD commanded Moses.

The ancient scriptures contain the vilest trash ever written. They are replete with murder and rape. God commands genocide, theft, fraud, slaughter. I agree with the atheist Robert G Ingersoll (1833-99). This is not the word of any God. It is the product of primitive barbarism. FOR many years I have regarded the Pentateuch simply as a record of a barbarous people, in which are found a great number of the ceremonies of savagery, many absurd and unjust laws, and thousands of ideas inconsistent with known and demonstrated facts. To me it seemed almost a crime to teach that this record was written by inspired men; that slavery, polygamy, wars of conquest and extermination were right, and that there was a time when men could win the approbation of infinite Intelligence, Justice, and Mercy, by violating maidens and by butchering babes. To me it seemed more reasonable that savage men had made these laws. (Some mistakes of Moses, 1879)

[Leumas]

The Bible which has been around for thousands of years and is the greatest selling book of all time (by most accounts) would seem like a good place to look for the will and the laws of God.


Other than the logical fallacies of majority and antiquity, you think that all these are God's will:

killing people who work on the Sabbath
killing people who carve or paint any images
cutting the arms of wives who try to help their husbands in a fight
forcing women to drink polluted water to find out if they are unfaithful
stoning adulterers to death
stoning disobedient children to death
stoning anyone who doesn't believe in god to death
burning women who we think are witches
burning diviners and soothsayers
stoning gays to death
raping little girls
genociding nations
forcing girls to marry their rapists
enslaving people
selling daughters as slaves
stoning to death a girl for not being a virgin on the night of her marriage
stoning to death a person who blasphemes
killing people for not selling their houses and giving ALL the proceeds to the Church
selling road kills to strangers
not allowing disabled people or people with crushed balls to serve as priests
not allowing disabled people or people with crushed balls to pray in churches
banishing people with leprosy out of society
women should give the church a goat every time they have a period
sacrificing daughters when god grants us a win over our enemies when we pray for it
burning entire cities down with all its inhabitants because they worshiped other gods
selling all our goods and give them to the poor
plucking our eyes out
cutting our hands off
not working and relying on god to provide for us
not eating lobster, prawns, squid, ham
not eating veal alfredo
not competing with the Joneses
no interest rates on loans
not wearing fabrics that are made out of mixed materials
daily sacrifices of animals
not touch women who are menstruating or even sit where they sat


And the list goes on and on.

So tell me DOC if that is God's will when are you going to start stoning gays and adulterers and killing girls who lose their virginity?

When DOC are you going to stop eating ham and shrimp?

When DOC are you going to give all your money to the poor?

When DOC are you going to start killing people and annihilating cities for not believing in god?

Or if you cannot do any of the above now….will you vote for a government that would do all that….it is god’s will according to the bible….is that what you want? Do you want a Christian Taliban ruling the USA according to God’s will?

[DrDave]

I doubt God was happy when His people the Jews probably got beat when they were slaves for 400 years in Babylon and Egypt.

Didn't happen

[Elizabeth I]

The Bible which has been around for thousands of years and is the greatest selling book of all time (by most accounts) would seem like a good place to look for the will and the laws of God.
When did you last have shrimp? Or wear a cotton/polyester garment? Explicit prohibitions against doing those things, and lots of other stupid stuff that would never hurt anybody, are set down as laws of God. I picked up some sticks out of my yard last Sunday. Will you be attempting to kill me now?


Actually the Catholic policy on celibacy when it first began had more to do with economics than an aversion to sex. The church could save money if priests don't have to support a family, and they can also devote more time to their pastoral duties.
Doesn't matter. They are still thwarting natural desires, and, as Hans pointed out, not even as a matter of doctrinal principle, but simply out of greed.


Seems to me like you don't appreciate playing second fiddle.
No, I don't appreciate being told I should believe in miraculous occurrences that I didn't see for myself.

[joobz]

Joobz implied I said all strokes are cause by sin. That is just one of "many" inaccuracies about my positions that have been stated over the last year or so.DOC, I was giving you an opportunity to defend your position. Instead, you've fallen back to ambiguious claims that are neither defensible or intriguing.

1.) There is no evidence for a higher rate of mental illness in Europe compared to other western nations.
2.) There is no mechanistic link between what you call "sin" and mental illness.

[joobz]

Actually the Catholic policy on celibacy when it first began had more to do with economics than an aversion to sex. The church could save money if priests don't have to support a family, and they can also devote more time to their pastoral duties.
So many church rules are there for convenience sake and not morality?
I agree.

[Craig B]

DOC, I was giving you an opportunity to defend your position. Instead, you've fallen back to ambiguious claims that are neither defensible or intriguing.

1.) There is no evidence for a higher rate of mental illness in Europe compared to other western nations.
2.) There is no mechanistic link between what you call "sin" and mental illness. joobz, I agree. But there is a link between sin and crime, and between crime and incarceration. So why don't we look at the incarceration rate per 100,000 persons in the US, compared with European countries, as shown in wiki? Any pattern here? The first number is the world ranking; the second is the incarceration rate. 1 United States 743
2 Russia 577
81 Spain 159
87 Hungary 153
92 England and Wales 150
99 Scotland 141
101 Malta 140
102 Luxembourg 139
107 Romania 132
115 Isle of Man 121
117 Bulgaria 120
127 Italy 113
129 Macedonia 109
129 Portugal 109
133 Cyprus 105
134 Guernsey 104
135 Austria 103
136 Greece 102
138 Ireland 99
142 Belgium 97
144 France 96
145 Netherlands 94
152 Germany 88
157 Switzerland 79
160 Sweden 78
160 Northern Ireland 78
164 Bosnia and Herzegovina 77
165 Monaco 76
168 Andorra 71
168 Denmark 71
168 Norway 71
173 Slovenia 67
178 Kosovo 62
183 Finland 60
190 Iceland 55
211 Liechtenstein 28
213 Faroe Islands 25

[Craig B]

We may add that none of the European countries practices capital punishment, so a good few of the people in jail in Europe aren't in jail in the US, because they have been put to death. This distorts the figures even more.

Looks like the Christian USA is a hotbed of sin!

[Cuddles]

Stay on topic and avoid making personal attacks. Edward Palamar, that mainly means you.

[dafydd]

The Bible which has been around for thousands of years and is the greatest selling book of all time (by most accounts) would seem like a good place to look for the will and the laws of God.

Are impotent men and men with damaged genitals allowed in your church? The bible forbids that.

[dafydd]

Stay on topic and avoid making personal attacks. Edward Palamar, that mainly means you.

Christian charity and brotherly love going full blast again!

[Akhenaten]

I doubt God was happy when His people the Jews probably got beat when they were slaves for 400 years in Babylon and Egypt.





The Babylonian and Egyptian gods were cool with it though, and since they had the most people things must have been peachy, overall.

[TimCallahan]

The Bible which has been around for thousands of years and is the greatest selling book of all time (by most accounts) would seem like a good place to look for the will and the laws of God.

One problem with this is that there are differences between the Old Testament (e. i. the Jewish Scriptures) and the New Testament (Christian Scriptures). At first, this would seem to simplify things, were one to take the position that the Christ Scriptures superceded the Jewish Scriptures. Not only would we not have to deal with all the purity laws etc., but the example set by Jesus in his dealings with the woman who was a sinner (probably a prostitute) who anointed his feet and the woman taken in adultery would also suggest a more forgiving attitude toward sexual sins. Add to this that Jesus only forbade divorce because in his day it meant men putting away their wives and the fact that he says nothing about homosexuality, and one would expect that sexual sins would be of a comparatively minor concern for Christians.

However, back in the 1970s, when a law liberalizing sexual laws, making all sexual acts done in private between consenting adults legal, came up for discussion in the California State legislature, conservative Christian legislators opposed to this law fulminated against it, liberally quoting the condemnation of fornication and homosexuality in Leviticus in the process. However, they didn't quote all the laws saying that women were unclean during their menstrual periods.

Consider also that the civil rights movement, spearheaded by Martin Luther King and the Southern Christian Leadership Conference, used as a slogan Moses' demand (on behalf of Yahweh) to Pharaoh, "Let my people go!" While this would seem to invoke God's law, it ignores the many verses in both the Old and New Testaments legitimizing slavery.

Thus, it would appear that those who want to follow God's law often cherry pick which laws to follow.

[X]

Thus, it would appear that those who want to follow God's law often cherry pick which laws to follow.


Which is exactly why, when DOC asked me where I get my morality from, I said "The same place you do".
(In the "Iran Hangs 3 Homosexuals" thread)

[welshdean]

Are impotent men and men with damaged genitals allowed in your church? The bible forbids that.

If DOC's god made me suffer either of these I reckon I'd be a bit 'muddled upstairs', adding to the 'Euro-Crazies' list.

Having said that I have got a few suits, does that make me impotent?

[zooterkin]

If DOC's god made me suffer either of these I reckon I'd be a bit 'muddled upstairs', adding to the 'Euro-Crazies' list.

Having said that I have got a few suits, does that make me impotent?

I don't know, but your avatar and custom title suggest you might not be playing with a full pack. ;)

[welshdean]

I don't know, but your avatar and custom title suggest you might not be playing with a full pack. ;)

It's comments like this that make me mad. I mean crazy. No nuts. Aw forget it.

[Sun Countess]

"Sin of Humanity"?
Are you now saying that simply being Human is a sin? Isn't that the most bizarre idea. That's always been my biggest problem with the concept of "sin," because it always just boils down to being human. If you think anything negative, that's a sin, if you're a fertile woman who bleeds monthly, that's a sin, if you get angry at someone, that's a sin, if you think about sex, that's a sin....and the list goes on and on. Basically if you're not worshipping God 24/7, then you are committing some sort of sin, probably several. It's all just nonsense.

Joobz implied I said all strokes are cause by sin. That is just one of "many" inaccuracies about my positions that have been stated over the last year or so. In a way that encourages me because it shows me some skeptics are constantly forced to be inaccurate about my positions in order to appear to make an effective response. Obviously, you never say anything as forceful as "all." You won't even go halfway with most of your posts, but you use weasel words to imply things. Nearly all of your posts contain some variant of "maybe" or "could be" or "possibly," which is why other posters are constantly asking you to clarify your position. State your opinions more forcefully, and be ready to back them up. Don't weasel around some idea, and then when someone calls you on it, go back and say that the person is creating a strawman or attacking the arguer.

Billy Graham has a simple definition of sin. It is anything contrary to the will of God. Billy Graham is a hateful misogynistic, power-hungry nutjob. I'm not too interested in his definition of "sin" or his interpretation of the "will of God."

The Bible which has been around for thousands of years and is the greatest selling book of all time (by most accounts) would seem like a good place to look for the will and the laws of God.
That book shows the God you claim to worship as a hateful, misogynistic, power-hungry nutjob. I'm not too surprised that Billy Graham gets his ideas from him. Why should I have to become a self-loathing and immoral person just to satisfy the jealous whims of the creation of a long-dead society? It's not my fault that other people don't want to let go of an ancient fairytale. Grimm's fairytales have been around for a long time and read by millions of people, but it's not a basis for modern morality and enlightenment.

[six7s]

... you use weasel words to imply things. Nearly all of your posts contain some variant of "maybe" or "could be" or "possibly," which is why other posters are constantly asking you to clarify your position. State your opinions more forcefully, and be ready to back them up. Don't weasel around some idea, and then when someone calls you on it, go back and say that the person is creating a strawman or attacking the arguer.Bravo SC, this is so superb that it can't be over emphasised

Please DOC, take the time to read, comprehend and accept that Sun Countess' words of advice are invaluable if you want to become a critical thinker - you have nothing to lose but your delusions

[dafydd]

Billy Graham is a hateful misogynistic, power-hungry nutjob. I'm not too interested in his definition of "sin" or his interpretation of the "will of God."


.

Billy Graham befriended the still-in-the-closet hypocrite Cliff Richard and the thankfully late nutcase Mary Whitehouse. Enough said.

[six7s]

Cliff is NOT gay!!!11!!!

OK... so his boyfriend might be...

But he ISN'T!!11!!

[citizenzen]

Bravo SC, this is so superb that it can't be over emphasized ...


I disagree.

People who speak forcibly and don't allow in their argument for some degree of uncertainty usually sound like blowhard idiots to me.

A well placed "maybe" or "perhaps" is often needed to keep one from sounding like a mindless zealot.

[Foster Zygote]

Cliff is NOT gay!!!11!!!

OK... so his boyfriend might be...

But he ISN'T!!11!!

:D

(And I'm not one who generally uses emoticons.)

[joobz]

I disagree.

People who speak forcibly and don't allow in their argument for some degree of uncertainty usually sound like blowhard idiots to me.

A well placed "maybe" or "perhaps" is often needed to keep one from sounding like a mindless zealot.
It's one thing to be uncertain, it's another to hide behind the uncertainty.
If you are making a claim, you must defend the claim. If you are unable to do so, you must withdraw the claim.

DOC has made an argument that mental illness rates are tied to religious decline. When challenging his mechanism of this claim, he asserts that he said "maybe" and "Not all" and therefore acts as though he need to defend the claim. Rational debate doesn't work this way.

[dafydd]

It's one thing to be uncertain, it's another to hide behind the uncertainty.
If you are making a claim, you must defend the claim. If you are unable to do so, you must withdraw the claim.

DOC has made an argument that mental illness rates are tied to religious decline. When challenging his mechanism of this claim, he asserts that he said "maybe" and "Not all" and therefore acts as though he need to defend the claim. Rational debate doesn't work this way.

Being rational and believing in a god do not go together.

[citizenzen]

If you are making a claim, you must defend the claim. If you are unable to do so, you must withdraw the claim.


On that, I forcibly agree.

[TimCallahan]

Okay, DOC, one last time, What is your response to the following?:

1) When strokes and dementias (such as Alzheimer's) are removed from the recent European study, the percentage of people with mental and emotional illnesses in Europe is comparable to mental illness rates in the U.S. in earlier studies, which also did not include strokes and dementias. Thus, over all irreligious Europe and the comparably religious U.S. have the same rate of mental illness. Do you still maintain the rate of mental illness is higher in Europe due to a decline in religion? I so, why?

2) Church attendance in the U.S. and Canada is comparable. However, Canada's rate of mental illness is less than half that of the U.S. If religion is a factor in lowering rates of mental illness, or, if you prefer, a decline in religion is a factor in raising those rates, why is there such a difference in the mental illness rates in Canada and the U.S.?

If you fail to answer these simple, direct questions, then be damned as a weasel and a troll.

[DOC]

DOC has made an argument that mental illness rates are tied to religious decline. When challenging his mechanism of this claim, he asserts that he said "maybe" and "Not all" and therefore acts as though he need to defend the claim. Rational debate doesn't work this way.In which post did I assert "maybe" and "not all" when someone challenged the mechanism of the claim (whatever that means).

[Akhenaten]

In which post did I assert "maybe" and "not all" when someone challenged the mechanism of the claim (whatever that means).





It means this:



Obviously, you never say anything as forceful as "all." You won't even go halfway with most of your posts, but you use weasel words to imply things. Nearly all of your posts contain some variant of "maybe" or "could be" or "possibly," which is why other posters are constantly asking you to clarify your position. State your opinions more forcefully, and be ready to back them up. Don't weasel around some idea, and then when someone calls you on it, go back and say that the person is creating a strawman or attacking the arguer.

[DOC]

Okay, DOC, one last time, What is your response to the following?:

1) When strokes and dementias (such as Alzheimer's) are removed from the recent European study, the percentage of people with mental and emotional illnesses in Europe is comparable to mental illness rates in the U.S. in earlier studies, which also did not include strokes and dementias. Thus, over all irreligious Europe and the comparably religious U.S. have the same rate of mental illness. Do you still maintain the rate of mental illness is higher in Europe due to a decline in religion? I so, why?.

If we assume the info you mention above is correct, the bottom line is that the mental illness rates in both areas is very high. The mental illness rates in the US could also be caused to a certain extant by sin but a "different" sin than the Europeans.. The US claims to be more Godly but the US seems to be more materialistic than Europe. The sin of materialism and the love of money (root of all evil) can be the fuel that causes such things as overwork to attain more goods and to keep up with the Jones. Overwork can lead to depression and other mental problems. Also the sin of valuing corporate profit over human factors can lead to human suffering. A great example of this is the movie "Roger and Me" by Michael Moore. This movie shows how the policy of profit over all else practically destroyed the community of Flynt Michigan. This action of practically destroying a town can lead to mental problems.

Thus while the US seems to be more godly on the surface (by such things as a higher church attendance) it is actually less godly in certain areas than Europe. But then again Europe is less godly in certain areas, mainly in its growing lack of recognition and indifference to God.

[DOC]

It means this:So when I ask for a post of mine you give someone else's post.

[Akhenaten]

Okay, DOC, one last time, What is your response to the following?:

1) When strokes and dementias (such as Alzheimer's) are removed from the recent European study, the percentage of people with mental and emotional illnesses in Europe is comparable to mental illness rates in the U.S. in earlier studies, which also did not include strokes and dementias. Thus, over all irreligious Europe and the comparably religious U.S. have the same rate of mental illness. Do you still maintain the rate of mental illness is higher in Europe due to a decline in religion? I so, why?





If we assume the info you mention above is correct, the bottom line is that the mental illness rates in both areas is very high.





No assumption is necessary, the information is correct and the bottom line is that the figures are comparable.



The mental illness rates in the US could also be caused to a certain extant by sin but a "different" sin than the Europeans..





Only if we pretend that sin is a real thing and allow you to make up your own definitions for it.

And change the topic from the relationship between religiosity and mental illness to the relationship between sin and mental illness.



The US claims to be more Godly but the US seems to be more materialistic than Europe. The sin of materialism and the love of money (root of all evil) can be the fuel that causes such things as overwork to attain more goods and to keep up with the Jones. Overwork can lead to depression and other mental problems. Also the sin of valuing corporate profit over human factors can lead to human suffering. A great example of this is the movie "Roger and Me" by Michael Moore. This movie shows how the policy of profit over all else practically destroyed the community of Flynt Michigan. This action of practically destroying a town can lead to mental problems.





Are you hoping to get away with simply calling everything that might contribute to mental illness a sin? I'll bet you get called on it.



Thus while the US seems to be more godly on the surface (by such things as a higher church attendance) it is actually less godly in certain areas than Europe. But then again Europe is less godly in certain areas, mainly in its growing lack of recognition and indifference to God.





You have no idea what is meant by special pleading, do you?


Not only have you completely failed to address the above question, you simply ignored altogether the second question in the same post.


Here's a memory jogger for you:


2) Church attendance in the U.S. and Canada is comparable. However, Canada's rate of mental illness is less than half that of the U.S. If religion is a factor in lowering rates of mental illness, or, if you prefer, a decline in religion is a factor in raising those rates, why is there such a difference in the mental illness rates in Canada and the U.S.?




Want to have another go?

[Akhenaten]

In which post did I assert "maybe" and "not all" when someone challenged the mechanism of the claim (whatever that means).





It means this:


Obviously, you never say anything as forceful as "all." You won't even go halfway with most of your posts, but you use weasel words to imply things. Nearly all of your posts contain some variant of "maybe" or "could be" or "possibly," which is why other posters are constantly asking you to clarify your position. State your opinions more forcefully, and be ready to back them up. Don't weasel around some idea, and then when someone calls you on it, go back and say that the person is creating a strawman or attacking the arguer.





So when I ask for a post of mine you give someone else's post.





It answers the question you didn't ask in exactly the way that your own posts never do.

[joobz]

In which post did I assert "maybe" and "not all" when someone challenged the mechanism of the claim (whatever that means).
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=7568014#post7568014

You claimed that sin can lead to physical illness. That is what we are discussing. When challenged, you resort to wishy washiness, refusing to defend your arguments.

You make allusions to connections, but fail to actually make one.

For instance:
If we assume the info you mention above is correct, the bottom line is that the mental illness rates in both areas is very high. The mental illness rates in the US could also be caused to a certain extant by sin but a "different" sin than the Europeans.. The US claims to be more Godly but the US seems to be more materialistic than Europe. The sin of materialism and the love of money (root of all evil) can be the fuel that causes such things as overwork to attain more goods and to keep up with the Jones. Overwork can lead to depression and other mental problems. Also the sin of valuing corporate profit over human factors can lead to human suffering. A great example of this is the movie "Roger and Me" by Michael Moore. This movie shows how the policy of profit over all else practically destroyed the community of Flynt Michigan. This action of practically destroying a town can lead to mental problems.

Thus while the US seems to be more godly on the surface (by such things as a higher church attendance) it is actually less godly in certain areas than Europe. But then again Europe is less godly in certain areas, mainly in its growing lack of recognition and indifference to God.

All of this is simply conjecture. Further all you are doing is calling distasteful policies and labeling them sins.
Further, considering that we know things that aren't sinful* cause physical illness, we can assume your argument defeated.


*Vaginal prolapse is a physical disease.
Vaginal prolapse is most commonly caused by multiple child births.
Does this mean that "Being fruitful and multiplying" is a sin or does it mean that non-sinful actions cause physical diseases as well?

If sinful and nonsinful actions cause physical illness, what does that say regarding your entire argument?

[X]

If we assume the info you mention above is correct, the bottom line is that the mental illness rates in both areas is very high. The mental illness rates in the US could also be caused to a certain extant by sin but a "different" sin than the Europeans. The US claims to be more Godly but the US seems to be more materialistic than Europe. The sin of materialism and the love of money (root of all evil) can be the fuel that causes such things as overwork to attain more goods and to keep up with the Jones. Overwork can lead to depression and other mental problems. Also the sin of valuing corporate profit over human factors can lead to human suffering. A great example of this is the movie "Roger and Me" by Michael Moore. This movie shows how the policy of profit over all else practically destroyed the community of Flynt Michigan. This action of practically destroying a town can lead to mental problems.

Thus while the US seems to be more godly on the surface (by such things as a higher church attendance) it is actually less godly in certain areas than Europe. But then again Europe is less godly in certain areas, mainly in its growing lack of recognition and indifference to God.



Hmm...
Sun Countess has you pegged perfectly.



Obviously, you never say anything as forceful as "all." You won't even go halfway with most of your posts, but you use weasel words to imply things. Nearly all of your posts contain some variant of "maybe" or "could be" or "possibly," which is why other posters are constantly asking you to clarify your position. State your opinions more forcefully, and be ready to back them up. Don't weasel around some idea, and then when someone calls you on it, go back and say that the person is creating a strawman or attacking the arguer.




Here DOC, let me help you out with your lack-of-huevos problem.
I don't expect you'll accept my rendition. It would require you to make concrete claims that you may have to support...



If the info you mention above is correct, the bottom line is that the mental illness rates in both areas is very high. The mental illness rates in the US is also caused to a certain extant by sin but a "different" sin than the Europeans. The US gives the image of being more Godly but the US is actually more materialistic than Europe. The sin of materialism and the love of money (root of all evil) is the fuel that causes such things as overwork to attain more goods and to keep up with the Jones. Overwork leads lead to depression and other mental problems. Also the sin of valuing corporate profit over human factors leads to human suffering. A great example of this is the movie "Roger and Me" by Michael Moore. This movie shows how the policy of profit over all else practically destroyed the community of Flynt Michigan. This action of practically destroying a town lead to mental problems.

Thus while the US pretends to be more godly on the surface (by such things as a higher church attendance) it is actually less godly in certain areas than Europe. But then again Europe is less godly in certain areas, mainly in its growing lack of recognition and indifference to God.






A final note: Please stop affirming the consequent when playing with your ever-adaptable definition of sin. Surely you learned about that particular fallacy in that logic course you aced?

[Mashuna]

If sinful and nonsinful actions cause physical illness, what does that say regarding your entire argument?

Can we just get the thread merged with the 'Natural Disasters could be a punishment from God' thread? Maybe get it renamed, 'Every bad thing that ever happens is probably deserved because you might have been mean to God'?

[Leif Roar]

If we assume the info you mention above is correct, the bottom line is that the mental illness rates in both areas is very high.

"Very high" compared to what, exactly? You don't have any baseline rate of mental illness to compare them to, so what makes you think they're at all unusual?

[Robrob]

Funny how the people asking if we are being punished for sin always feel sin is defined as something their religion prohibits. Strange how you never hear a Christian saying "Oh man, we are sinning against Shiva!" or a Muslim saying, "Oh man, we have angered the Buddha!!"

[Akhenaten]

Funny how the people asking if we are being punished for sin always feel sin is defined as something their religion prohibits. Strange how you never hear a Christian saying "Oh man, we are sinning against Shiva!" or a Muslim saying, "Oh man, we have angered the Buddha!!"





Apart from DOC, Ive never heard of anyone describing "the sin of valuing corporate profit over human factors".

[Pup]

"Very high" compared to what, exactly? You don't have any baseline rate of mental illness to compare them to, so what makes you think they're at all unusual?

Yeah, I was wondering that. What's DOC's example of a religious country with a low rate of mental illness compared to similar countries that aren't religious? What's the ideal we're supposedly striving for?

Apart from DOC, Ive never heard of anyone describing "the sin of valuing corporate profit over human factors".

Covetousness and failing to love your neighbor? I think it would fit.

Honestly, I get the point of what DOC's saying. A lot of things that successful religions preach would lead to good mental and physical health if they're properly cherry-picked, because religious leaders need reasonably healthy, happy followers. So if they're going to enforce a system that causes poor health, insanity and the dissolution of society, it won't last long.

So if a person followed exactly what a particular church preached--let's take a random Christian protestant denomination--they probably would turn out pretty healthy and happy. Or if not happy, at least benign. Love your neighbor, don't be greedy (balance of recreation and work, healthy weight, no substance abuse), don't have random sex (i.e. don't spread/contract sexual disease or create babies you won't care for), obey the law (so no jail time and consequent stress), don't worry about the morrow (less stress), don't suffer from guilt, help those in need, etc.

The problem is that it's easy for a happy, well adjusted person to do those things, but not so easy for someone suffering from OCD, depression, etc., and the religion doesn't give any practical instructions how to switch from being one to the other, it just says do it or else.

I think that's the main reason religion doesn't have much correlation with good mental health. A lot of the advice is good, but there's no help in following it, except maybe with the broadest, vaguest sort of peer pressure and advice to pray.

And that's not even getting into all the silliness about grooming, clothing, rituals, etc., that religions tack on to the things that might actually be practical, and which they're just as apt to condemn people for disobeying as the more practical stuff.

[pakeha]

Can we just get the thread merged with the 'Natural Disasters could be a punishment from God' thread? Maybe get it renamed, 'Every bad thing that ever happens is probably deserved because you might have been mean to God'?

Thanks for the laugh!
Hey.
That satellite that's falling to Earth even as I write.
If it falls in a place rife with depression, that will be proof of something, won't it?

[joobz]

Yeah, I was wondering that. What's DOC's example of a religious country with a low rate of mental illness compared to similar countries that aren't religious? What's the ideal we're supposedly striving for?

There isn't one. That will be his proof that all the world is sinful. clearly, if it wasn't sinful, than the mental health illness rate would be 0%.

It's fun to make up crap instead of making a rational argument.

[joobz]

Apart from DOC, Ive never heard of anyone describing "the sin of valuing corporate profit over human factors".

I can think of one other person...... Jesus.
Seriously, It's one of the few things DOC has said that I agree with.
Jesus was a communist, not capitalist.

[dafydd]

I can think of one other person...... Jesus.
Seriously, It's one of the few things DOC has said that I agree with.
Jesus was a communist, not capitalist.

He was a prudent capitalist

(To the tune of 'John Brown's Body)

Jesus puts his money in the Cardiff Savings Bank
Jesus puts his money in the Cardiff Savings Bank
Jesus puts his money in the Cardiff Savings Bank
Jesus saves,Jesus saves.

A popular song in Wales when I was a lad.

[Nogbad]

David Nutt, a neuropsychopharmacology expert at Imperial College London who was not involved in this study, agreed.

"If you can get in early you may be able to change the trajectory of the illness so that it isn't inevitable that people go into disability," he said. "If we really want not to be left with this huge reservoir of mental and brain illness for the next few centuries, then we ought to be investing more now."

David Nutt is an intelligent and articulate man and I'm leaning towards him either responding somewhat tongue in cheek or being misquoted entirely.

That aside, clearly 38% of the population of Europe are not laid up with mental illness at any one time. However, as they are including Alzheimer's and other ailments associated with ageing in their study it is not improbable that 38% of the population will encounter something debilitating at some point in their life. This is quite different from half the population currently under psychiatric care.

It is also fair to say that in previous eras people would be described as having black moods or melancholic now they are depressed. Ailments that were always there are now give a diagnosis. I'm impressed though if DOC can demonstrate that churches are Alzheimer free zones.

One last thought - what if they are classing obsessive religious observance as a mental illness ;)

[Mojo]

One last thought - what if they are classing obsessive religious observance as a mental illness ;)


You mean having an imaginary friend who tells you what to do?

[Craig4]

If we assume the info you mention above is correct, the bottom line is that the mental illness rates in both areas is very high. The mental illness rates in the US could also be caused to a certain extant by sin but a "different" sin than the Europeans.. The US claims to be more Godly but the US seems to be more materialistic than Europe. The sin of materialism and the love of money (root of all evil) can be the fuel that causes such things as overwork to attain more goods and to keep up with the Jones. Overwork can lead to depression and other mental problems. Also the sin of valuing corporate profit over human factors can lead to human suffering. A great example of this is the movie "Roger and Me" by Michael Moore. This movie shows how the policy of profit over all else practically destroyed the community of Flynt Michigan. This action of practically destroying a town can lead to mental problems.

Thus while the US seems to be more godly on the surface (by such things as a higher church attendance) it is actually less godly in certain areas than Europe. But then again Europe is less godly in certain areas, mainly in its growing lack of recognition and indifference to God.

Tell me, ruling out aging related conditions, what is the rate of mental illness in Sweden?

[dafydd]

Cliff is NOT gay!!!11!!!

OK... so his boyfriend might be...

But he ISN'T!!11!!

I saw Cliff on TV last night. He's about seventy now. His face has finally caught up with his scrotum

[Sawbones79]

Tell me, ruling out aging related conditions, what is the rate of mental illness in Sweden?

A quick google gave me some rough numbers:
Psychiatric diseases make up about 25% of serious ilnesses in Sweden (55% amongst the age group of 45 years and below). (Source: Socialstyrelsen).
The point prevalence of psychiatric disease is stated to be somewhere around 13% of the poulation, with 2% exhibiting psychotic symptoms and 0.5% being diagnosed as schizophrenic.
AFAIK that's based on an interview study that I can't find, and the numbers for psychosis seems rather high.
If I find the time for it, I'll check with the hospital library for more exact data later today.

[tsig]

Billy Graham has a hotline to god?

Are you kidding? God has a hotline to Billy Graham.

[dafydd]

Can we just get the thread merged with the 'Natural Disasters could be a punishment from God' thread? Maybe get it renamed, 'Every bad thing that ever happens is probably deserved because you might have been mean to God'?

If god did exist it would be the other way round.

[TimCallahan]

If we assume the info you mention above is correct, the bottom line is that the mental illness rates in both areas is very high. The mental illness rates in the US could also be caused to a certain extant by sin but a "different" sin than the Europeans.. The US claims to be more Godly but the US seems to be more materialistic than Europe. The sin of materialism and the love of money (root of all evil) can be the fuel that causes such things as overwork to attain more goods and to keep up with the Jones. Overwork can lead to depression and other mental problems. Also the sin of valuing corporate profit over human factors can lead to human suffering. A great example of this is the movie "Roger and Me" by Michael Moore. This movie shows how the policy of profit over all else practically destroyed the community of Flynt Michigan. This action of practically destroying a town can lead to mental problems.

Thus while the US seems to be more godly on the surface (by such things as a higher church attendance) it is actually less godly in certain areas than Europe. But then again Europe is less godly in certain areas, mainly in its growing lack of recognition and indifference to God.

DOC:

I haven't responded to the post above for a few days because I recently had some password difficulties, which Darat solved for me after a bit of missed communication.

Allow me to point out that in your OP you asserted that Europe's rate of mental illness was greater than that of the U.S. and gave as the reason the decline of religion in Europe. Central to your assertion was the higher rate of mental illness in Europe than in the U.S. Now you're saying that the U.S. is just as bad as Europe. That would seem to totally undermine your argument.

So, you now switch, it seems, to an argument that ungodliness in general is the cause for high rates of mental illness in both Europe and the U.S. While I completely agree with your arguments in the hilited area, I must point out two major flaws in your new argument:

1) The depression and stress generated by the auto makers in Detroit abandoning their work force for the sake of profit is not echoed in Europe, where, despite the decline in religion (or, arguably because of it, considering religion-based opposition to such programs), welfare democracies have limited profits and provided safety nets for displaced workers. Yet, for all the increased support, their rate of mental illness are comparable to that of the U.S.

2) Though church attendance rates in the U.S. and Canada are comparable, Canada's rate of mental illness is less than half that of the U.S. I could argue that Canada, unlike the U.S., has had a decent medical care system. This, along with other factors - less stress from being in the midst of world politics, greater ethnic homogeneity, lower population - could be the reasons Canada has a considerably lower rate of mental illness than the U.S. However, I would also have to acknowledge that many European countries share many of these attributes (with the exception of lower population pressure), yet have mental illness rates comparable to that of the U.S. How, for example, could we account for the high rate of depression in France?

One thing I could not argue is that the lower rate of mental illness in Canada is the result of greater godliness. The Canadians are certainly as secular as we in the U.S. are. Unless you can demonstrate greater piety among Canadians, your argument fails here, just as it does regarding Europe.

It would appear, then, that rates of mental illness vary from country to country based on an idiosyncratic mix of factors. These may include the presence or absence of social safety nets, varying levels of ethnic and cultural homogeneity, varying levels of population pressure, political conditions and individual differences in national character. There is no indication, whatsoever that rates of mental illness are tied to the presence or absence of religious practice and conviction. Ergo, in light of the evidence, your argument fails utterly, Q.E.D.

[AdMan]

One thing I could not argue is that the lower rate of mental illness in Canada is the result of greater godliness. The Canadians are certainly as secular as we in the U.S. are. Unless you can demonstrate greater piety among Canadians, your argument fails here, just as it does regarding Europe.



This recent poll also undermines DOC's argument:

Half of Canadians think religion more harmful than good, poll finds (http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/todays-paper/Half%2BCanadians%2Bthink%2Breligion%2Bmore%2Bharmf ul%2Bthan%2Bgood%2Bpoll%2Bfinds/5410599/story.html)

It's no secret fewer Canadians attend church today than 20 years ago, but what may be surprising is almost half of Canadians believe religion does more harm than good, according to the results of a survey conducted by Ipsos Reid.

[Mojo]

How, for example, could we account for the high rate of depression in France?


http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/world_cup_2010/groups_and_teams/group_a

[Toke]

Could be. :D

[TimCallahan]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/world_cup_2010/groups_and_teams/group_a

That could be it. This reminds me of one difference between Los Angeles and Detroit. When the Lakers bombed out of the playoffs a number of years ago, it was no big deal in L.A. Life went on in its generally laid-back way.

However, one year when either their football or basketball team (I don't recall which, I'm not a sports fan) won the championship, the denizens of Detroit celebrated by rioting, including torching quite a few cars. I'd hate to see what happens there should they be nosed out.

While the post about the soccer finals was, no doubt, tongue in cheek, I do recall Scottish soccer hooligans rioting over one of the games, a la Detroit. This does strengthen the assertion that much of the difference between mental illness rates from one country to the next may be based on idiosyncratic national differences.

[six7s]

While the post about the soccer finals was, no doubt, tongue in cheek, I do recall Scottish soccer hooligans rioting over one of the games, a la Detroit. This does strengthen the assertion that much of the difference between mental illness rates from one country to the next may be based on idiosyncratic national differences.Likewise, the same applies to sects

Hell hath no fury like Glasgow when Celtic and Rangers fans collide

http://www.slate.com/id/2289101/
...match between the two clubs had coincided with 229 arrests. Statistics compiled by Scottish law enforcement suggest that rates of violent crime and domestic abuse more than double whenever Rangers and Celtic play

...

Leaders of the Church of Scotland and the Catholic Church issued a joint statement pleading with players not to "disgrace the good name of Scotland."

...

The problem is that the rivalry reflects social tensions that no one has done more to foster than the social institutions that are now blaming soccer for the country's ills. The Old Firm, as Celtic and Rangers are collectively known, preserves an ancient sectarian hatred that is baroquely entwined through all levels of Scottish society. For politicians and priests to cry J'accuse at the clubs while ignoring all the ways in which their own predecessors have stoked that same conflict is to treat a symptom as a disease.

[welshdean]

DOC:

How, for example, could we account for the high rate of depression in France?



You've obviously never been.

[Elizabeth I]

You've obviously never been.

What? With all that cheese and wine, how could they be depressed?

[Professor Yaffle]

What? With all that cheese and wine, how could they be depressed?

They have to live with all those french people...

:boxedin:

[Craig B]

Thus while the US seems to be more godly on the surface (by such things as a higher church attendance) it is actually less godly in certain areas than Europe. But then again Europe is less godly in certain areas, mainly in its growing lack of recognition and indifference to God. Mmm ... Lack of recognition of God sounds about as ungodly as you can get. In what sense can it be said that the US is "actually less godly" than people who don't even recognise God? And if the definition of godliness is as confused and uncertain as this, of what possible value is the observation about comparative rates of mental illness, even if it were in fact accurate?

[six7s]

...of what possible value is the observation about comparative rates of mental illness... ?value(inaccurate observation) = delusion reinforcement ++;

[catsmate1]

What? With all that cheese and wine, how could they be depressed?
USAian tourists?:D
:boxedin:

[welshdean]

USAian tourists?:D
:boxedin:

:D:D




ETA: Obviously not the lovely 'horsey' types.

[Rincewind]

Mmm ... Lack of recognition of God sounds about as ungodly as you can get. In what sense can it be said that the US is "actually less godly" than people who don't even recognise God? And if the definition of godliness is as confused and uncertain as this, of what possible value is the observation about comparative rates of mental illness, even if it were in fact accurate?

Actually, there's probably a test for lack of recognition of God...

Just show somebody a piece of burnt toast (or something similar), and ask them who's face they see. :)

[TimCallahan]

DOC: Now that even you have agreed that the rates of mental illness in Europe are comparable to those in the U.S., and now that it has been pointed out to you that the even though the Canadians are less godly than we in the U.S. are, yet have a mental illness rate less than half that of the U.S., are you ready to retract the assertion of your O.P.?

After all, the evidence is clearly against you.

[Mister Agenda]

I don't believe DOC is capable of making a retraction. Has he ever done so on anything? The closest he seems to be able to come is 'Yes, but I'm still right on balance'.

[Craig B]

Actually, there's probably a test for lack of recognition of God... Just show somebody a piece of burnt toast (or something similar), and ask them who's face they see. :) By those standards Europe, or at least central Italy where my wife's relations live, is plenty religious. You get brass bands playing concerts in honour of the stigmata of St Padre Pio, and the number of weeping statues, holy liquifying phials of saints' congealed blood etc, is beyond computation.

By DOC's calculations there should be no sign of mental disorder anywhere in Molise or the Naples region. Alas, it's not clear to me that this is so. On the contrary, in fact.

[TimCallahan]

By those standards Europe, or at least central Italy where my wife's relations live, is plenty religious. You get brass bands playing concerts in honour of the stigmata of St Padre Pio, and the number of weeping statues, holy liquifying phials of saints' congealed blood etc, is beyond computation.

By DOC's calculations there should be no sign of mental disorder anywhere in Molise or the Naples region. Alas, it's not clear to me that this is so. On the contrary, in fact.

Once again, if you go to [URL="http:///www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5111202/ns/health-mental_health/t/global-study-finds-mental-illness-widespread/#.TodQOnNdpvk"[/URL] you will find that that the mental illness rates of Italy (8.2%) and Spain (9.2%), arguably more religious than Germany, have mental illness rates comparable to Germany's rate of 9.1%. Of course Nigeria, with a rate under 5% puts the U.S. rate of over 26% to shame. So, would anyone care to exchange life in the U.S. for life in Nigeria?

[Craig B]

you will find that that the mental illness rates of Italy (8.2%) and Spain (9.2%), arguably more religious than Germany, have mental illness rates comparable to Germany's rate of 9.1%. Of course Nigeria, with a rate under 5% puts the U.S. rate of over 26% to shame. So, would anyone care to exchange life in the U.S. for life in Nigeria? It really doesn't seem to make any difference at all, then. Religious people and atheists are equally likely to go bananas.

[Craig B]

Of course Nigeria, with a rate under 5% puts the U.S. rate of over 26% to shame. So, would anyone care to exchange life in the U.S. for life in Nigeria? This is perhaps the point. Behaviour which would pass unremarked in Nigeria or Naples would result in incarceration in a mental hospital in Vermont or Rhode Island.

[Mojo]

Of course Nigeria, with a rate under 5% puts the U.S. rate of over 26% to shame. So, would anyone care to exchange life in the U.S. for life in Nigeria?


Well, Nigeria is very religious: over 50% Muslim.

[Robrob]

DOC: Now that even you have agreed that the rates of mental illness in Europe are comparable to those in the U.S., and now that it has been pointed out to you that the even though the Canadians are less godly than we in the U.S. are, yet have a mental illness rate less than half that of the U.S., are you ready to retract the assertion of your O.P.?
Since he's making it as he goes, I predict - no.

[Roadtoad]

Still catching up with this, and have to note that even after DOC's been shown the fallacies, he's still sticking to his godbot fantasies.

I'm going to grab a beer. I'm here for 34 hours, I might as well get comfortable.

[Edward Palamar]

It's all very well for you as the resurrected and prophesied Peter the Roman not to worry, but the rest of us are not so fortunate.I am resurrected, but the name Peter the Roman is not.

[Edward Palamar]

Stay on topic and avoid making personal attacks. Edward Palamar, that mainly means you.I haven't made any personal attacks. The relation of mental illness and belief in Christ has been challenged, and the best that the moderators of JREF can contribute is a calumnious duo of falsehood. I find your powers of interpretation on the wane.

[Roadtoad]

I haven't made any personal attacks. The relation of mental illness and belief in Christ has been challenged, and the best that the moderators of JREF can contribute is a calumnious duo of falsehood. I find your powers of interpretation on the wane.

I don't know about that. While I find I have some serious disagreements regarding the moderation, this time, they got it right.

Sorry. Just sayin'...

[dafydd]

I haven't made any personal attacks. The relation of mental illness and belief in Christ has been challenged, and the best that the moderators of JREF can contribute is a calumnious duo of falsehood. I find your powers of interpretation on the wane.

We have the lowest wanefall on the net.

[Akhenaten]

We have the lowest wanefall on the net.





http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/209954d66541cbf7d8.gif (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=22602)

[Kopji]

I haven't made any personal attacks. The relation of mental illness and belief in Christ has been challenged, and the best that the moderators of JREF can contribute is a calumnious duo of falsehood. I find your powers of interpretation on the wane.

There is nothing really to challenge.

What specific beliefs about Jesus are claimed to be mental health enhancing? Is mental health better in fundamentalism or liberalism? Do we see any trends within Christianity itself, or is the claim about that a broad affirmation of belief that is adequate?

Muslims believe in Jesus, God, and the Holy Spirit. what is the dividing line for mental health benefit?

Christianity is being claimed good for mental health, so what virtue is unique to Christianity?

It is simply that we define good mental health as including the insane notion that an invisible deity can communicate with us and punish the wicked and reward the good. Sending tsunamis and earthquakes at its bidding. Putting men in charge of women. Making some dirt more glorious than other dirt.

Healthy healthy healthy.

[TimCallahan]

I haven't made any personal attacks. The relation of mental illness and belief in Christ has been challenged, and the best that the moderators of JREF can contribute is a calumnious duo of falsehood. I find your powers of interpretation on the wane.

Again, when we look closely at the study cited in the OP, we see that dementias, such as Alzheimer's and strokes were included as a percentage of the mental illness in Europe. Once these entirely physical ailments are removed, the study gives pretty much the same results as earlier studies, showing that Europe and America have about the same level of mental illness (i.e., depression, anxiety, substance abuse, etc.).

Again, the rates of mental illness for more religious European countries, such as Spain and Italy, were comparable to those of Germany, a much less religious nation.

Again, though Canada and the U.S. have comparable levels of church attendance, Canada's rate of mental illness is less than half that of the U.S. Subsequent to my posting this statistic, other posters noted that many more Canadians than U.S. citizens had a negative view of religion and Christianity.

Again, the evidence is in: There is no relation, positive or negative, between belief or disbelief in Jesus Christ and levels of mental illness. This fact, in and of itself, is not an argument for or against Christianity. I'm simply saying, without any rancor, that the assertion of the OP does not hold up when the evidence is examined.

Your response?

[DOC]

{DOC}Allow me to point out that in your OP you asserted that Europe's rate of mental illness was greater than that of the U.S.

Actually, I never asserted this, although it could be true, nobody knows for sure. My main point was Europe's rate is very high.

and gave as the reason the decline of religion in Europe.

I think it is a good possibility.


Central to your assertion was the higher rate of mental illness in Europe than in the U.S.

Actually I don't believe I was the one who brought in the US.


Now you're saying that the U.S. is just as bad as Europe.

No, I'm not, you are.


That would seem to totally undermine your argument...

Not really for a reason I talked about in post 413.

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=7603410#post7603410

[MRC_Hans]

Actually, I never asserted this, although it could be true, nobody knows for sure. My main point was Europe's rate is very high.



Actually I don't believe I was the one who brought in the US.

Your argument will not make any sense unless you assume that the rate of mental illness is higher in Europe than in a comparable region (which can really only be the US). If religion is a factor, then there should be a difference between Europe and (certain parts of) the USA.


I think it is a good possibility.
(That the high level of mental illness is due to lack of religion)

And on what do you base that assumption?

Do you claim that this effect depends only on Christian religion (and if yes, which particular brand), or will any religion do?

Hans

ETA: This has been touched before, but I can't find any clear replies from DOC (may be a generic problem for DOC ;) )

[DOC]

Your argument will not make any sense unless you assume that the rate of mental illness is higher in Europe than in a comparable region (which can really only be the US). If religion is a factor, then there should be a difference between Europe and (certain parts of) the USA

Not necessarily, and I gave 1 reason why in post 413.

{There is a good chance}that the high level of mental illness is due to lack of religion {in Europe}--

And on what do you base that assumption?In these threads and from general reading people seem to think that Europeans are smarter and have their act together more than Americans. If that is so why the very high mental illness. If they are so smart and sophisticated it would seem its mental illness should be some of the lowest. And mental illness seems to be on the rise is the feeling I get from reading the article in the OP -- just as indifference to religion has been on the rise in Europe (and in the US for that matter).

[joobz]

Not necessarily, and I gave 1 reason why in post 413.
You didn't give a reason. You gave illogical conjecture. If your reason was "valid" you would also be forced to conclude that having multiple children is a sin as it very often leads towards diseases for the mother (e.g., Vaginal prolapse).


In these threads and from general reading people seem to think that Europeans are smarter and have their act together more than Americans. If that is so why the very high mental illness.
DOC, "very high" is a superlative. Without context and comparison, it is meaningless. A very high literacy rate 1000 years ago would have been 50%. Now a days that would be considered a very low literacy rate.
As such, when you use "very high", rational people assume you are comparing it to other nations.

Secondly, How can you claim that 40% is very high when we all know that the list include such a wide range of diseases (including apnea, insomnia,...)?


If they are so smart and sophisticated it would seem its mental illness should be some of the lowest.
Well this statement exposes a lot about yourself.
Why are you so antagonistic towards Europeans?

And mental illness seems to be on the rise is the feeling I get from reading the article in the OP -- just as indifference to religion has been on the rise in Europe (and in the US for that matter).Well that's the problem. You are drawing a conclusion that isn't supported by the article. the evidence doesn't show mental illness being on the rise.

[Akhenaten]

{DOC}Allow me to point out that in your OP you asserted that Europe's rate of mental illness was greater than that of the U.S.





Actually, I never asserted this, although it could be true, nobody knows for sure. My main point was Europe's rate is very high.





Compared to what?




and gave as the reason the decline of religion in Europe.





I think it is a good possibility.





Based on what?




Central to your assertion was the higher rate of mental illness in Europe than in the U.S.





Actually I don't believe I was the one who brought in the US.





Does this somehow prevent you from answering the question?




Now you're saying that the U.S. is just as bad as Europe.





No, I'm not, you are.





Now's your chance then, DOC. How do the rates compare?

Keep in mind that your OP is even more utterly meaningless than usual without being able to make this comparison.




That would seem to totally undermine your argument...





Not really for a reason I talked about in post 413.

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=7603410#post7603410





That mish-mash of special pleading, baseless assertions, and uninformed speculation explains nothing. It's drivel.

[MRC_Hans]

Not necessarily, and I gave 1 reason why in post 413.

I disagree with your reason. I don't think your OP makes sense unless you imply that there is a correlation between religion and mental illness when comparing two comparable cultures.


In these threads and from general reading people seem to think that Europeans are smarter and have their act together more than Americans.

Of course we are smarter!

Seriously, I think that depends on which Americans you compare to which Europeans. However, having a huge percentage of Creationists in the US doe speak volumes to me, albeit probably not to you.

If that is so why the very high mental illness. If they are so smart and sophisticated it would seem its mental illness should be some of the lowest.

Why so? Is the sophisticated mind less prone to mental illness? I see no reason to assume so.

And mental illness seems to be on the rise is the feeling I get from reading the article in the OP -- just as indifference to religion has been on the rise in Europe (and in the US for that matter).

So you do draw a parallel. So my question stands: Do you consider just any religion a defence against mental illness or just some specific? (This important if one is to evaluate a possible correlation.)



Hans

[Akhenaten]

Your argument will not make any sense unless you assume that the rate of mental illness is higher in Europe than in a comparable region (which can really only be the US). If religion is a factor, then there should be a difference between Europe and (certain parts of) the USA





Not necessarily, and I gave 1 reason why in post 413.





How long are you going to pretend that nobody has refuted that garbage?




{There is a good chance}that the high level of mental illness is due to lack of religion {in Europe}--





And on what do you base that assumption?





In these threads and from general reading people seem to think that Europeans are smarter and have their act together more than Americans.





You just made it up, in other words.



If that is so why the very high mental illness.





Compared to what?



If they are so smart and sophisticated it would seem its mental illness should be some of the lowest.





You haven't yet shown that they aren't. In fact you seem to be quite emphatic about not having made a comparison between Europe and the US.



And mental illness seems to be on the rise is the feeling I get from reading the article in the OP -- just as indifference to religion has been on the rise in Europe (and in the US for that matter).





We're supposed to base our understanding of the situation on your feelings about it?


http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/209954c4152e2ee75d.gif (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=20434)

[kmortis]

Is that Wilbur I see peeking over the horizon?

[Akhenaten]





http://www.yvonneclaireadams.com/HostedStuff/Weasel2.png

[kmortis]

WE HAVE WILBUR SIGN!!!!!

So, from my in depth reading of each and every post (why is my scroll wheel smoking like that?), can I summarize?

No? Too long?

Sum up?

The OP posited that mental illness (including neurological disorders like Alzheimer's as well as more "Software" related issues like schizophrenia) is on the rise in Europe (never explictly saying in comparison to what) and this is due to the majority of Europeans sluffing off the shackles of religion/hearlessly turning their back upon the One True God™. Everyone else has addressed the major and minor points with actual data.

Yup, it's a Wilbur sign.

[zooterkin]

I think it is a good possibility.

Assertion without evidence.

[Mojo]

Actually, I never asserted this, although it could be true, nobody knows for sure. My main point was Europe's rate is very high.


Yoer point is unsupported, because you haven't provided any source which indicates that Europe's rate is particularly high when compared with anywhere else.

On the contrary, we had sources cited in the early pages of the thread which showed that, when similar methods of assessment are used, the USA has a higher rate than European countries.

[TimCallahan]

Actually, I never asserted this [that Europe's rate of mental illness was greater than that of the U.S.], although it could be true, nobody knows for sure. My main point was Europe's rate is very high.
. . . (snip)

Specifically, the study you cited in the OP, upon which you based your basic assertion, said that the rate of mental illness in Europe, over all, was 38% of the population. This is greater than the 27% of the U.S. population. If you didn't say directly that Europe's rate was higher than that of the U.S., you certainly strongly implied it.

I've also pointed out to you that Canada's rate of church attendance is comparable to that of the U.S. Yet, their rate of mental illness is a bit less than half the U.S. rate. Other posters pointed out that, while levels of church attendance are comparable, most Canadians are far less religious than pare people on the U.S. This directly contradicts the idea that a decline in religion results in higher levels of mental illness.

[iknownothing]

My main point was Europe's rate is very high.

High compared to what standard? What do you think the rate should be?

If they are so smart and sophisticated it would seem its mental illness should be some of the lowest.

Why?

And mental illness seems to be on the rise is the feeling I get from reading the article in the OP

Have you noticed the people suggesting that what's rising is actually the understanding and diagnosis, rather than mental illness itself. (With the exception of problems such as stroke and dementia, which are explained by an aging population.)

[Roadtoad]

I'm still catching up on links and all, but one thing is clear:

There's nothing here. Again.

The links are interesting, but it's obvious that DOC didn't bother to look at this at all.

[AdMan]

The links are interesting, but it's obvious that DOC didn't bother to look at this at all.


Nope, and in his latest posts it's painfully obvious he's trying to wriggle his way out of the hole he'd dug himself into.

[X]

Nope, and in his latest posts it's painfully obvious he's trying to wriggle his way out of the hole he'd dug himself into.


I'm just waiting until DOC realizes that his digging is undercutting the foundation of his argument. His argument is wrong, of course, but if you're undercutting any possible point you could have been trying to make in order to avoid admitting error, why not just man-up and admit you were wrong?

[TimCallahan]

I copied this post by Paulhoff from the God-punishes-with-natural-disasters thread (hilite added):

Funny, it seems the less religious the country is, the lower the homicide rate.

http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._homicide_rate

Tell us about that edge.

Paul

This would seem to fit this thread, since a high homicide rate, like a high rate of mental illness, could be used as an indicator that abandoning God devastates a society. However, as Paul has noted, homicide rates go down with a decline in religious observance.

[Edward Palamar]

that the assertion of the OP does not hold up when the evidence is examined.

When it is examined, it is not something against which is spoken.

[Akhenaten]

When it is examined, it is not something against which is spoken.





Geeze, I'm glad we got that sorted out.

[joobz]

Geeze, I'm glad we got that sorted out.
There were twelve words in Palamar's sentence.

I know and understand the definitions of all words.
8 words are monosyllabic
3 words are disyllabic
1 word is trisyllabic

The sentence contains a subject and verb that are in agreement. Hence it is not a fragmented sentence.

The pronoun it refers to "the OP", and hence is not undefined.
The direct object is "Something".
"which is spoken" is a vague, but seems to be the OP as well.

and yet, I have still no clue what Palamar is trying to say.

The best I could come up with is:
"When the OP is examined, the OP is not something against the OP."

[Cainkane1]

This is my last post on this thread but I want to say this before I leave. Some of the sorriest, most obnoxious, vile worthless people I have ever met in my life wouldn't miss church if their lives depended on it. We're talking ministers, deacons etc.

[DOC]

I copied this post by Paulhoff from the God-punishes-with-natural-disasters thread (hilite added):

Funny, it seems the less religious the country is, the lower the homicide rate.

http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._homicide_rate

Tell us about that edge.

Paul

This would seem to fit this thread, since a high homicide rate, like a high rate of mental illness, could be used as an indicator that abandoning God devastates a society. However, as Paul has noted, homicide rates go down with a decline in religious observance.

Yes, but it might take a thousand years of those low rates to make up for all the deaths caused by Hitler 60 million, Stalin 20 million, and Mao 40 million.

And things might change as Europe becomes more multicultural and less affluent. Remember what happened in Norway when that guy killed around 70 people about 6 months ago.

[dafydd]

Yes but it might take a thousand years of those low rates to make up for all the deaths caused by Hitler 60 million, Stalin 20 million, Mao 40 million.

You don't know the difference between the homicide rate and war? Hitler was a Christian. The Spanish Conquistadors who did such a good job of wiping out the natives of South America were Christians.

[Justinian2]

The OP was:

I was surprised to see just how high the figures for mental illness are in Europe.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44394646/#.Tma_hI672_I

I maintain that an increase in secularism and decrease in religiosity could be a major reason.

secularism: indifference to or rejection or exclusion of religion and religious considerations

religiosity: : religious; especially: excessively, obtrusively, or sentimentally religious

From Wikipedia, the definition of Satan:
satan: Satan (Hebrew: הַשָּׂטָן ha-Satan), "the opposer", is the title of various entities, both human and divine, who challenge the faith of humans in the Hebrew Bible. In Christianity and Islam the title became a personal name, and "Satan" changed from an accuser appointed by God to test men's faith to the chief of the rebellious fallen angels ("the devil" in Christianity, "Shaitan" in Arabic, the term used by Arab Christians and Muslims).

We could extrapolate the OP to imply that Satan as the opposer of religion is to blame.

Now when I say religion is good, I don't say that all churches are good or that religious hypocrites are good. We know that Satan (the opposer in human or divine form) is active in many churches and even in this forum.

[Justinian2]

You don't know the difference between the homicide rate and war? Hitler was a Christian. The Spanish Conquistadors who did such a good job of wiping out the natives of South America were Christians.

Find an opposer of religion and you will find Satan.

[Foster Zygote]

We know that Satan (the opposer in human or divine form) is active in many churches and even in this forum.

No, I'm pretty sure that it's mostly Darth Vader, and a little bit of Professor Fate, but no Satan.

[Foster Zygote]

Find an opposer of religion and you will find Satan.

Who do we have to hang out with to find leprechauns?

[Mudcat]

Yes, but it might take a thousand years of those low rates to make up for all the deaths caused by Hitler 60 million, Stalin 20 million, and Mao 40 million.

And things might change as Europe becomes more multicultural and less affluent. Remember what happened in Norway when that guy killed around 70 people about 6 months ago.

Repeating the same flawed argument over and over again and expecting a different result is textbook insanity DOC.

[joobz]

Yes, but it might take a thousand years of those low rates to make up for all the deaths caused by Hitler 60 million, Stalin 20 million, and Mao 40 million.

And things might change as Europe becomes more multicultural and less affluent. Remember what happened in Norway when that guy killed around 70 people about 6 months ago.

Your posts are evil.

[Justinian2]

I was surprised to see just how high the figures for mental illness are in Europe.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44394646/#.Tma_hI672_I

I maintain that an increase in secularism and decrease in religiosity could be a major reason.

Yes, the decline of religion could be the reason for insanity. Look at what gets substituted in the place of religion. Look at where people find solace and spiritual guidance.

In lieu of religion, people find their answers in the insanity of the law, government, war, drugs, rap songs, and video games. No wonder insanity is on the increase!

Yes, Satan could be defined as a person or deity that opposes religion. He could also be defined as a person that trashes religion from within or a person that uses religion as camouflage.

[AdMan]

Find an opposer of religion and you will find Satan.


How does Satan fit in with your beliefs in Scientology, Justinian?

[jond]

Find an opposer of religion and you will find Satan.

I didn't realize L Ron Hoover's First Church of Appliantology believed in Satan. Learn something new every day!

[Foster Zygote]

Yes, but it might take a thousand years of those low rates to make up for all the deaths caused by Hitler 60 million, Stalin 20 million, and Mao 40 million.
Hitler was a Christian, DOC.

And things might change as Europe becomes more multicultural and less affluent. Remember what happened in Norway when that guy killed around 70 people about 6 months ago.
Those nasty multiculturalists! If those different people hadn't moved there, Anders Behring Breivik wouldn't have been forced to go on a killing spree to stop them from living together as friends and neighbors.

[AdMan]

From Wikipedia, the definition of Satan:
satan: Satan (Hebrew: הַשָּׂטָן ha-Satan), "the opposer", is the title of various entities, both human and divine, who challenge the faith of humans in the Hebrew Bible.


Why didn't you highlight the whole sentence, including the bolded part? I thought definitions were paramount to Scientologists. Where does LRH talk of Satan? Or are Scientologists free to pick and choose from other religions?

[Mudcat]

Hitler was a Christian, DOC.


So? He was also the grandson of Jews and (most likely) had homosexual tenancies. The man had issues with self loathing, and also likely had brain damage from when he was a house painter (during a time when they still used lead in paint). Imagine if they had the medical, psychological, and chemical advances we have now back then, might have stopped Hitler from becoming the monster he became.

So DOC, explain to us what is the alternative if you would be so kind.