Could the very high rate of mental illness in Europe be related to religion decline?

[DOC]

I was surprised to see just how high the figures for mental illness are in Europe.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44394646/#.Tma_hI672_I

I maintain that an increase in secularism and decrease in religiosity could be a major reason.

[MG1962]

I was surprised to see just how high the figures for mental illness are in Europe.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44394646/#.Tma_hI672_I

I maintain that an increase in secularism and decrease in religiosity could be a major reason.

Of course no evidence or argument to back your statement **fail**

[alfaniner]

no.

[Marduk]

Yes, you have a point, as we have moved away from religious belief and moved towards secularism, the quality of care in medicine has improved and as a result the ability of doctors to diagnose mental illnesses has increased.

the numbers haven't increased, the ability to detect the disorders has
along with the ability to detect mental disorders also comes an ability to treat them, so don't worry Doc, whereas before your church would have tortured you or burned you alive or imprisoned or hanged you as a cure, thesedays you are much less likely to suffer now that the church isn't calling the shots
:D

[not_so_new]

Well, according to this....

http://yourlife.usatoday.com/health/medical/mentalhealth/story/2011-09-05/CDC-Half-of-Americans-will-suffer-from-mental-health-woes/50250702/1

... the heathen Europeans might be fairing a little better than your "Christian Nation" Doc.

[Cainkane1]

I was surprised to see just how high the figures for mental illness are in Europe.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44394646/#.Tma_hI672_I

I maintain that an increase in secularism and decrease in religiosity could be a major reason.
That can't be it. If anything i may be due to the influx of muslim immigrants flooding ito their countries. In my opinion the biggest lunatics are fundys who have to be nuts to believe their tripe.

[not daSkeptic]

I maintain that an increase in secularism and decrease in religiosity could be a major reason.

If you mean that events which in the past would have been labeled religious experiences are now being labeled mental disorders, then I could see that as a possibility. But do you have any evidence to suggest this is actually what is happening?

[Leif Roar]

I was surprised to see just how high the figures for mental illness are in Europe.

On the up side, though, the figures for demonic possession is at an all time low.

[Elypsis44]

I was surprised to see just how high the figures for mental illness are in Europe.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44394646/#.Tma_hI672_I

I maintain that an increase in secularism and decrease in religiosity could be a major reason.


You need to brush up on your causation/correlation understanding.

There is a correlation between increased instances of drowning and ice cream consumption, but that does not mean one causes the other.

Fail.

:rolleyes:

[BStrong]

I was surprised to see just how high the figures for mental illness are in Europe.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44394646/#.Tma_hI672_I

I maintain that an increase in secularism and decrease in religiosity could be a major reason.

Hmmmm, No.

[Mudcat]

Yes, you have a point, as we have moved away from religious belief and moved towards secularism, the quality of care in medicine has improved and as a result the ability of doctors to diagnose mental illnesses has increased.

the numbers haven't increased, the ability to detect the disorders has
along with the ability to detect mental disorders also comes an ability to treat them, so don't worry Doc, whereas before your church would have tortured you or burned you alive or imprisoned or hanged you as a cure, thesedays you are much less likely to suffer now that the church isn't calling the shots
:D

This, unreservedly.

DOC when will you understand that we live in the best times of human history? When will you understand that the advances in technology and education that allows us to better understand, detect, and prepare against disasters, disease, and deprivation? When you realize that humans are in the best position to stop human suffering? When you realize that religion and God has nothing to do with anything you say?

[joobz]

Step 1: High rate of mental illness
Step 2: ????
Step 3: Profit!

[dafydd]

I was surprised to see just how high the figures for mental illness are in Europe.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44394646/#.Tma_hI672_I

I maintain that an increase in secularism and decrease in religiosity could be a major reason.

I live in Belgium Doc,which is a much saner place than the USA. We sometimes look on with bemusement at what goes on over there. There is no Bible Belt here and we all know the Bible Belt is a byword for insanity. We have no rabid TV evangelists. I think I have proved my point.

[RandFan]

Society without God: What the Least Religious Nations Can Tell Us About Contentment (http://www.amazon.com/Society-without-God-Religious-Contentment/dp/0814797148)

kriguuKVJyw

[Roadtoad]

Try this: Perhaps the rise in the diagnosis of mental illness is due to the increasing sophistication and utilization of improved methodologies which allow us to recognize these disorders at an early stage, as well as a decline in the opprobrium faced by those with said disorders, which would seem to coincide with a decline in religious participation.

Which of the two statements -- yours and mine -- would be more reflective both the facts and the truth?

[Tricky]

Try this: Perhaps the rise in the diagnosis of mental illness is due to the increasing sophistication and utilization of improved methodologies which allow us to recognize these disorders at an early stage, as well as a decline in the opprobrium faced by those with said disorders, which would seem to coincide with a decline in religious participation.

Which of the two statements -- yours and mine -- would be more reflective both the facts and the truth?
Exactly. It's the notorious "more cops on the block" effect. When you put more cops on the block, crime goes up. Why? Because more crime is discovered.

When you have a community with a lot of mental health professionals, reported incidences of mental illness go up, not because more people have it, but because more of it is reported. Europe should be glad that they're recognizing more of the mental illnesses that have been swept under the carpet for so long. Like excessive religiosity.

[Lowpro]

I heard that global warming was attributed to a decrease in pirates

[Giordano]

DOC,

Once you define many of those with severe delusional illnesses as "religious" you significantly decrease those remaining in the category "mentally ill."

[Akhenaten]

I was surprised to see just how high the figures for mental illness are in Europe.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44394646/#.Tma_hI672_I

I maintain that an increase in secularism and decrease in religiosity could be a major reason.





I note that the people who actually did the study made no mention of such a connection.

Where can I find the results of the study you undertook (or at least referred to) that helped you to formulate your hypothesis?

I also note from your link that:


A direct comparison of the prevalence of mental illnesses in other parts of the world was not available because different studies adopt varying parameters.




Did your study reveal that increasing religiosity in, say, the United States has led to a commensurate decrease in mental ilness?

[Akhenaten]

DOC,

Once you define many of those with severe delusional illnesses as "religious" you significantly decrease those remaining in the category "mentally ill."





http://forums.randi.org/images/icons/icon14.gif

Spot on.


A delusion is defined as a false personal belief based on incorrect inference about external reality and firmly sustained despite what almost everyone else believes and despite what constitutes incontrovertible and obvious proof or evidence to the contrary.

[Aepervius]

I was surprised to see just how high the figures for mental illness are in Europe.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44394646/#.Tma_hI672_I

I maintain that an increase in secularism and decrease in religiosity could be a major reason.

That would be easy to demobnstrate, take a country where religiousity rise or is stable, there are plenty of them in Africa, and shows that the % of mentally ill is low. Naturally since one of the mental "illness" is anxiety, I am pretty sure the numbers will be pretty much the same.

Until you have such an evidence DOC, your "hypotheses" (scary quote) is just about as valid as mine : religion is a mental illness that the author of the article forgot to take into account.

[Aepervius]

On the up side, though, the figures for demonic possession is at an all time low.

ALso autodafé are an all time low in Europe.

Compared to countries where they still happen (Africa), I consider that a plus.

[Leif Roar]

It's worth noting that the study actually covers "brain disorders" rather than "mental illness" and thus also includes conditions such as age dementia, epilepsy, multiple sclerosis and stroke.

[pakeha]

I was surprised to see just how high the figures for mental illness are in Europe.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44394646/#.Tma_hI672_I

I maintain that an increase in secularism and decrease in religiosity could be a major reason.

Of course you do, DOC, of course you do.
Removed personal comment

And from your link
The Bible, however, makes it plain that dinosaurs and people must have lived together. Actually, as we will soon see, there is a lot of evidence for this.

God sent two of every (seven of some) land animal into the Ark (Genesis 7:2–3; 7:8–9)—there were no exceptions. Therefore, dinosaurs must have been on the Ark. Even though there was ample room in the huge ship for large animals, perhaps God sent young adults into the Ark that still had plenty of room for them to grow.

[Mojo]

It's worth noting that the study actually covers "brain disorders" rather than "mental illness" and thus also includes conditions such as age dementia, epilepsy, multiple sclerosis and stroke.


It is also worth noting that DOC's link says nothing about the prevalence of religion.

[Evolved Wookie]

More likely it's due to the use of words like "religiosity"; I know it depresses me, but then I am just a simple Northerner.

[Mudcat]

More likely it's due to the use of words like "religiosity"; I know it depresses me, but then I am just a simple Northerner.

I was depressed today and didn't know it was due to this thread or even why it was precisely until this here post. But I'm just a simple Southerner.

[Sawbones79]

Try this: Perhaps the rise in the diagnosis of mental illness is due to the increasing sophistication and utilization of improved methodologies which allow us to recognize these disorders at an early stage, as well as a decline in the opprobrium faced by those with said disorders, which would seem to coincide with a decline in religious participation.

Which of the two statements -- yours and mine -- would be more reflective both the facts and the truth?

Highly seconded. Not only is awareness of common psychiatric illnesses such as depression on the rise, as well as the propensity to seek aid early, but neuropsychiatric disorders such as ADD is diagnosed amongst adults in increasing numbers.
Add to this that many that suffer from anxiety attacks and depression in a religious society might indentify such disorders as normal, church-sanctioned religious guilt and thus never seek the medical aid they need, I think the OP actually has a point: Psychiatric diagnoses are thankfully on the rise, due to the fog of superstitious guilt and useless help such as prayer perpetuated by religious institutions fading away thanks to increasing secularity.

[Evolved Wookie]

I was depressed today and didn't know it was due to this thread or even why it was precisely until this here post. But I'm just a simple Southerner.

Have a pint of whippet and a flat cap and we can drown our sorrows.

[Multivac]

I was surprised to see just how high the figures for mental illness are in Europe.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44394646/#.Tma_hI672_I

I maintain that an increase in secularism and decrease in religiosity could be a major reason.

No. Belief in an invisible sky daddy is not an indication of good mental health.

[Dave Rogers]

It seems to me that the argument everyone's trying to respond to is more rational than the one DOC actually advanced. Read the OP; he isn't claiming that there is an increase in mental illness caused by a decline in religion. As an argument, it's even less coherent than it looks.

Dave

[Skepticemea]

Hearing voices and believing in invisible angels isn't a sign of mental illness?

[nvidiot]

Not if everyone else does.

[Ladewig]

Highly seconded. Not only is awareness of common psychiatric illnesses such as depression on the rise, as well as the propensity to seek aid early, but neuropsychiatric disorders such as ADD is diagnosed amongst adults in increasing numbers.
Add to this that many that suffer from anxiety attacks and depression in a religious society might indentify such disorders as normal, church-sanctioned religious guilt and thus never seek the medical aid they need, I think the OP actually has a point: Psychiatric diagnoses are thankfully on the rise, due to the fog of superstitious guilt and useless help such as prayer perpetuated by religious institutions fading away thanks to increasing secularity.

I agree. Furthermore, many fundamentalist churches would look at seeking help for a mental illness as a sign of weakness - as a sign of not having enough faith in God.

[Sawbones79]

I agree. Furthermore, many fundamentalist churches would look at seeking help for a mental illness as a sign of weakness - as a sign of not having enough faith in God.

I've actually once met a patient who not only had depressional delusions about being "damned" (not unusual in severe cases), but actually was advised by his church elders to seek salvation, as they considered his illness an actual insight about his relation with god. I'm not a violent person, but at that point I actually entertained fantasies involving firebombing.

[Lothian]

ArticleEuropeans are plagued by mental and neurological illnesses, with ... 38 percent [/B]of the population suffering each year ..

wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholicism_by_country)Roman Catholicism in Europe

% of population Catholic 37.85%

Q.E.D.

[dafydd]

I was surprised to see just how high the figures for mental illness are in Europe.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44394646/#.Tma_hI672_I

I maintain that an increase in secularism and decrease in religiosity could be a major reason.

I just read it. What a load of bollocks. It would do these professors and doctors good to get out into the real world. 38 percent of the people I know here in Europe do not suffer from mental illness. None of my family and friends are religious,ergo they are sane. There is more insanity in One Bible Belt town than in the whole of Europe.

[joobz]

From the article:
"38 percent of the population suffering each year from a brain disorder such as depression, anxiety, insomnia or dementia"
That is a wide swath of disorders. I went into the report and found that the defined these 38% as anyone who was reported to have any one of the following conditions
Alcohol dependence
Opioid dependence (drug dep)
Cannabis dependence (drug dep)
Psychotic disorders
Major depression
Bipolar disorder
Panic disorder
Agoraphobia
Social phobia
Generalized anxiety dis.
Specific phobias
OCD
PTSD
Somatoform disorders
Anorexia nervosa (eating dis.)
Bulimia nervosa (eating dis.)
Borderline personality dis
Dissocial personality dis
Hyperkinetic dis./ADHD
Pervasive dev. dis./autism
Conduct disorders
Mental retardation
Insomnia
Hypersomnia
Narcolepsy
Sleep apnoea
Dementias

With the current economic climate and based upon the disorders listed, which includes drug abuse, insomnia, and anxiety, I am actually surprised the percentage was only 38%. I would have thought it higher.

Also note DOC, which you are claiming (and yes claiming- I don’t care if you use weasel words), that there is a common cause (reduced religion) for things like mental retardation, dementia(including Alzheimer’s) and sleep apnea. I don't think I need to explain the stupidity of such an assertion.

[Darat]

I was surprised to see just how high the figures for mental illness are in Europe.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44394646/#.Tma_hI672_I

I maintain that an increase in secularism and decrease in religiosity could be a major reason.

Why?

[Hoppy]

Here in the US we jail the mentally ill (40% of the incarcerated are), the rest we let live on the streets. There are plenty of "men of god" serving the prison population and the streets have an abundance of preachers. Problem solved:(

[H'ethetheth]

I was surprised to see just how high the figures for mental illness are in Europe.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44394646/#.Tma_hI672_I

I maintain that an increase in secularism and decrease in religiosity could be a major reason.Somehow this argument reminds me of this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:PiratesVsTemp%28en%29.svg

[Agatha]

From the article:
"38 percent of the population suffering each year from a brain disorder such as depression, anxiety, insomnia or dementia"
That is a wide swath of disorders. I went into the report and found that the defined these 38% as anyone who was reported to have any one of the following conditions
Alcohol dependence
Opioid dependence (drug dep)
Cannabis dependence (drug dep)
Psychotic disorders
Major depression
Bipolar disorder
Panic disorder
Agoraphobia
Social phobia
Generalized anxiety dis.
Specific phobias
OCD
PTSD
Somatoform disorders
Anorexia nervosa (eating dis.)
Bulimia nervosa (eating dis.)
Borderline personality dis
Dissocial personality dis
Hyperkinetic dis./ADHD
Pervasive dev. dis./autism
Conduct disorders
Mental retardation
Insomnia
Hypersomnia
Narcolepsy
Sleep apnoea
Dementias

With the current economic climate and based upon the disorders listed, which includes drug abuse, insomnia, and anxiety, I am actually surprised the percentage was only 38%. I would have thought it higher.

Also note DOC, which you are claiming (and yes claiming- I don’t care if you use weasel words), that there is a common cause (reduced religion) for things like mental retardation, dementia(including Alzheimer’s) and sleep apnea. I don't think I need to explain the stupidity of such an assertion.

DOC, you can see from the above that mental illness is being used in a very wide sense, and it may be that the incidence of mental illness from a more religious country would be at least as great as Europe when all the above disorders are considered.

It also may be the case that with our universal healthcare free at the point of delivery, diagnosis rates are higher as there are no financial barriers to accessing healthcare.

[iknownothing]

On the up side, though, the figures for demonic possession is at an all time low.

:D

Add to this that many that suffer from anxiety attacks and depression in a religious society might indentify such disorders as normal, church-sanctioned religious guilt and thus never seek the medical aid they need, I think the OP actually has a point:

Good point, although I don't think that's how the OP meant it. ;) But I'm trying and failing to think of a mental illness that a religious person won't interpret as a moral failure and/or test from God. But take away the religious aspect and it will be defined & treated as an illness.

[Lothian]

On the positive side the study found that 165 million is 38% of the European population. This means that the population is 434 million. Given 2 years ago the population of Europe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Europe)was 852 million we all have about twice as much space as we used to.

[joobz]

As a continuation to my previous post,
I couldn't find a perfect comparison with the US,
but from this study in 2005, we have a 12 month incidence rate of 26.2%
http://archpsyc.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/62/6/617
In the same year, a similar study was performed and found the 12 month incidence rate to be 27.4%
http://www.ecnp.eu/~/media/Files/ecnp/communication/reports/ECNP%20EBC%20Report.ashx

I am not sure if this is a significant difference or not, but I can say that the same subcategory of disorders was identified as having an incidence of rate of 27.1%, which suggests that these disorders could be declining.

[Agatha]

On the positive side the study found that 165 million is 38% of the European population. This means that the population is 434 million. Given 2 years ago the population of Europe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Europe)was 852 million we all have about twice as much space as we used to. Excellent! I will knock my neighbour's house down to give me a bigger garden.

[Darat]

On the positive side the study found that 165 million is 38% of the European population. This means that the population is 434 million. Given 2 years ago the population of Europe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Europe)was 852 million we all have about twice as much space as we used to.

I expect that's an unintended consequence of decriminalising sacrificing babies.

[joobz]

On the positive side the study found that 165 million is 38% of the European population. This means that the population is 434 million. Given 2 years ago the population of Europe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Europe)was 852 million we all have about twice as much space as we used to.

While funny,
the study says:
"Conducted in an EU-27 country, plus Iceland, Norway and Switzerland (the total number of European countries included was 30)"
which has a population of 515million. It's still off, but not anywhere near as bad.

Note that the study did not consider Russia (Pop ~140million).

[Foster Zygote]

Note that the study did not consider Russia (Pop ~140million).

Considering that Russians make vodka from potatoes, beets, whiskey, furniture and grief, that might have skewed the data.

[Schrodinger's Cat]

Aside from mental health services being improved, one also needs to take into account how much the stigma of mental illness and seeking help for mental illness has decreased in past decades.

In addition, standard of living has increased as well, as has health care coverage. People are more likely to be able to afford mental health care. And in general, they also have the luxury to care about their mental health. When you're not wholly consumed with worry by the day to day necessities of life, feeding your family, paying the rent, etc you have the time and ability to care about the fact that you are anxious, depressed, etc.

It's a lot easier to get help for your anxiety disorder when you aren't working 12 hour days for chump change and have no insurance coverage for mental health.

I would like to point out that Utah, possibly the most religious state in the nation, has the highest depression rate in the United States.

It's worth noting that the study actually covers "brain disorders" rather than "mental illness" and thus also includes conditions such as age dementia, epilepsy, multiple sclerosis and stroke.

This is an extremely important point. The inclusion of mental disorders due to disease, injury, and old age means that these hightened rates of disorders are impacted by the fact that people who would in the past have just died from such conditions are now surviving them, but with the mental disabilities that come from such disorders.

We've seen the same phenomena in the military. Better equipment keeps soldiers increased chances of living through through head impacts which would have been fatal in the past, but of course this also results in more live soldiers with brain injuries.

[CriticalSock]

On the positive side the study found that 165 million is 38% of the European population. This means that the population is 434 million. Given 2 years ago the population of Europe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Europe)was 852 million we all have about twice as much space as we used to.

Oh NO! The Germans are at it again!

[TimCallahan]

Well, according to this....

http://yourlife.usatoday.com/health/medical/mentalhealth/story/2011-09-05/CDC-Half-of-Americans-will-suffer-from-mental-health-woes/50250702/1

... the heathen Europeans might be fairing a little better than your "Christian Nation" Doc.

Yes, as not_so_new's site points out, 50% of Americans vs. 38% of Europeans suffering from mental illness severely undercut's DOC's claim. Further, according to DOC's site the four most disabling conditions are depression, Alzheimer's and other dementias, alcoholism and stroke. Of the these four, two - dementias and strokes - are physical disorders associated with aging. These level are going to go up as the population ages, due to better health care. Alcoholism has plagued many northern European countries for centuries, and religion has little effect on it. Likewise, depression, particularly in the form of seasonal affective disorder, is also endemic in those countries.

I notice that DOC, having kicked the ant hill, hasn't responded to any of these objections.

[The Norseman]

On the positive side the study found that 165 million is 38% of the European population. This means that the population is 434 million. Given 2 years ago the population of Europe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Europe)was 852 million we all have about twice as much space as we used to.

So the Rapture started in Europe then?

[Roadtoad]

So the Rapture started in Europe then?

Nah. Cleveland. They just haven't caught on.

[DOC]

I maintain that an increase in secularism and decrease in religiosity could be a major reason {for the high mental illness rate in Europe}.

Why?

From the article entitled: "Religion”

“Each religion asserts that it is a means by which its adherents may come into closer contact with God, Truth, and Spiritual Power. They all promise to free adherents from spiritual bondage, and bring them into spiritual freedom. It naturally follows that a religion which frees its adherents from deception, sin, and spiritual death will have significant mental health benefits. Abraham Maslow's research after World War II showed that Holocaust survivors tended to be those who held strong religious beliefs (not necessarily temple attendance, etc), suggesting it helped people cope in extreme circumstances.”

http://creationwiki.org/Religion
____

Also it is logical to conclude that the closer you are to universal truth the happier or more fulfilled you will be over the long term. This is not to say there aren’t some happy (or at least temporarily happy) atheists out there, but it is possible that they could be even happier if they were closer to the truth (if atheism was not in reality true).

This could also apply to societies, if a society is in touch with universal laws and truth it would be logical to assume that that society as a whole will be better functioning and its citizens as a whole will have better mental health. If secularism is the closest to truth of all belief systems it would seem Europe should have a lower mental health problem.

[Akhenaten]

I maintain that an increase in secularism and decrease in religiosity could be a major reason {for the high mental illness rate in Europe}.





Why?





From the article entitled: "Religion”

<snip someone else's answer>





In other words, your answer to the question is that you read it on some idiotic apologetics website.

How novel.

[zooterkin]

From the article entitled: "Religion”

“Each religion asserts that it is a means by which its adherents may come into closer contact with God, Truth, and Spiritual Power. They all promise to free adherents from spiritual bondage, and bring them into spiritual freedom. It naturally follows that a religion which frees its adherents from deception, sin, and spiritual death will have significant mental health benefits. Abraham Maslow's research after World War II showed that Holocaust survivors tended to be those who held strong religious beliefs (not necessarily temple attendance, etc), suggesting it helped people cope in extreme circumstances.”

http://creationwiki.org/Religion
____

Also it is logical to conclude that the closer you are to universal truth the happier or more fulfilled you will be over the long term. This is not to say there aren’t some happy (or at least temporarily happy) atheists out there, but it is possible that they could be even happier if they were closer to the truth (if atheism was not in reality true).

This could also apply to societies, if a society is in touch with universal laws and truth it would be logical to assume that that society as a whole will be better functioning and its citizens as a whole will have better mental health. If secularism is the closest to truth of all belief systems it would seem Europe should have a lower mental health problem.
Sorry, you seem to have skipped the step where you established that religion was true. I also notice Wilbur put in an appearance. Are you now conceding that atheism may be well-founded?

[iknownothing]

Also it is logical to conclude that the closer you are to universal truth the happier or more fulfilled you will be over the long term.

Why?

Wouldn't that make it really easy to discover "universal truth"? Whatever makes people happiest for the longest must be true.

[joobz]

From the article entitled: "Religion”

“Each religion asserts that it is a means by which its adherents may come into closer contact with God, Truth, and Spiritual Power. They all promise to free adherents from spiritual bondage, and bring them into spiritual freedom. It naturally follows that a religion which frees its adherents from deception, sin, and spiritual death will have significant mental health benefits. Abraham Maslow's research after World War II showed that Holocaust survivors tended to be those who held strong religious beliefs (not necessarily temple attendance, etc), suggesting it helped people cope in extreme circumstances.”

http://creationwiki.org/Religion
____
Given the evidenced presented in posts #43, 50, and 57d, that argument is completely stupid.

Also it is logical to conclude that the closer you are to universal truth the happier or more fulfilled you will be over the long term.
That's even stupider. How can you be closer to the universal truth when you don't even bother to know the truths here?

This could also apply to societies, if a society is in touch with universal laws and truth it would be logical to assume that that society as a whole will be better functioning and its citizens as a whole will have better mental health. If secularism is the closest to truth of all belief systems it would seem Europe should have a lower mental health problem.
and this is the stupidest of all.
To understand why, read post #50 and #57.

[iknownothing]

Sorry, you seem to have skipped the step where you established that religion was true.

Well, apparently it's because he thinks it makes people happy and fulfilled.

So if close to 40% of Europeans experience some sort of mental illness (including stroke & dementia!), then those numbers must be higher than in a Christian country like the US. Which must mean that Europeans are unhappy and unfulfilled compared to Americans. Therefore, God.

[joobz]

Why?

Wouldn't that make it really easy to discover "universal truth"? Whatever makes people happiest for the longest must be true.

If you universal truth too much, you could go blind.

[Crossbow]

I was surprised to see just how high the figures for mental illness are in Europe.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44394646/#.Tma_hI672_I

I maintain that an increase in secularism and decrease in religiosity could be a major reason.

I think that you are right! But not for the reason you provide.

I expect that more people are taking mental illness seriously by seeing medical professionals about the problem and getting actual treatment for the problem.

Which is much more effective approach than seeing some religious leader who will give them some dumb paltitude, tell then to fast, tell them to pray, or even try to exorcise the demon within them, because none of these remedies will actually address the problem that the person has.

[six7s]

the numbers haven't increased, the ability to detect the disorders hasI agree that this is almost certainly the case

along with the ability to detect mental disorders also comes an ability to treat themI disagree... sorta... I suspect that the ability to detect mental disorders is merely the first step towards treatment... knowing THAT there is a problem does not mean we know WHAT the problem is, let alone HOW to devise/implement a solution

[X]

Too easy.


Lots of words, DOC. But you said very little.

I do give the creationwiki credit. They did use the words "assert" and "promise to", rather than "is" and "does".
But the whole freeing people from sin and spiritual death and deception? Nonsense.

Sin and spiritual death are religious inventions. Religions can hardly claim credit for alleviating things they conjure up in the first place. And deception? It's been fairly well established that being religious is no prophylactic against being dishonest.
You're a prime example of that.

[Foster Zygote]

Also it is logical to conclude that the closer you are to universal truth the happier or more fulfilled you will be over the long term.

Why is this a logical conclusion, DOC?

[Tatyana]

I was surprised to see just how high the figures for mental illness are in Europe.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44394646/#.Tma_hI672_I

I maintain that an increase in secularism and decrease in religiosity could be a major reason.

From your own source material:

Mental illnesses including anxiety disorders and depression are common and under-treated in many developed and developing countries, with the highest rate found in the United States, according to a study of 14 countries.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5111202/

[Dancing David]

I was surprised to see just how high the figures for mental illness are in Europe.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44394646/#.Tma_hI672_I

I maintain that an increase in secularism and decrease in religiosity could be a major reason.

Um, what were the rates of mental illness prior to alleged secularism?

How do you know what they are?

[Dancing David]

Also it is logical to conclude that the closer you are to universal truth the happier or more fulfilled you will be over the long term.

Oh, so you are not aware that mental illness is biological in nature, that is truly a shame. It is biological, impacying and influenced by social systems and psychology.

Are you aware at all what deperssion and the other mental illnesses are like?

I wonder why religiosity is associated with schizophrenia?

[MontagK505]

From the article entitled: "Religion”

<snip>
____

Also it is logical to conclude that the closer you are to universal truth the happier or more fulfilled you will be over the long term. This is not to say there aren’t some happy (or at least temporarily happy) atheists out there, but it is possible that they could be even happier if they were closer to the truth (if atheism was not in reality true).
<snip>
.

I think most atheists experience a sense of relief from the constant threats, both here and the hereafter, that are a major feature of fundamentalist religious belief.

[Mojo]

Sorry, you seem to have skipped the step where you established that religion was true.


He also didn't address the question of which of all the different "universal truths" is universally true, and how believing in a false "universal truth" might impact on the believer's mental health.

[citizenzen]

They [religions] all promise to free adherents from spiritual bondage, and bring them into spiritual freedom.

This could also apply to societies, if a society is in touch with universal laws and truth it would be logical to assume that that society as a whole will be better functioning and its citizens as a whole will have better mental health.


So it would seem to follow that fundamentalist Muslim nations would be among the sanest societies around.

Doest that sound about right to you?

[MontagK505]

From the article entitled: "Religion”

“Each religion asserts that it is a means by which its adherents may come into closer contact with God, Truth, and Spiritual Power. They all promise to free adherents from spiritual bondage, and bring them into spiritual freedom. It naturally follows that a religion which frees its adherents from deception, sin, and spiritual death will have significant mental health benefits. Abraham Maslow's research after World War II showed that Holocaust survivors tended to be those who held strong religious beliefs (not necessarily temple attendance, etc), suggesting it helped people cope in extreme circumstances.”

http://creationwiki.org/Religion
____

<snip>.

You can't interview the people that didn't survive. So how would you know that strong religious beliefs had anything to do with surviving?

[DOC]

So it would seem to follow that fundamentalist Muslim nations would be among the sanest societies around.

Not to the thousands of people who marched in the streets in Iran last year.

[DOC]

You can't interview the people that didn't survive. So how would you know that strong religious beliefs had anything to do with surviving?Maybe he asked the relatives and friends of those who didn't make it if they were religious or not.

[Foster Zygote]

"Mental illnesses including anxiety disorders and depression are common and under-treated in many developed and developing countries, with the highest rate found in the United States, according to a study of 14 countries."

You're just going to ignore this, yes?

[TimCallahan]

"Mental illnesses including anxiety disorders and depression are common and under-treated in many developed and developing countries, with the highest rate found in the United States, according to a study of 14 countries."

You're just going to ignore this, yes?

Okay, DOC, here's your chance to respond to Foster Zygote and prove him wrong.

[Hokulele]

He also didn't address the question of which of all the different "universal truths" is universally true, and how believing in a false "universal truth" might impact on the believer's mental health.


A single man in possession of a good fortune must be in want of a wife?

[Foster Zygote]

Okay, DOC, here's your chance to respond to Foster Zygote and prove him wrong.

Tatyana was the first to point it out.

[joobz]

Maybe he asked the relatives and friends of those who didn't make it if they were religious or not.
Well, that's the most disgusting thought I've seen today.
DOC, did you really just suggest that a person would go to the families of holocaust survivors and ask, "Did your uncle/aunt/mom/dad/son/daughter/wife who died in the concentration camps REALLY believe in god?"

The fact that you would even consider making that argument is simply reprehensible.

[citizenzen]

Not to the thousands of people who marched in the streets in Iran last year.


Hmmm ... I don't think you want to use that as your criteria for mental health.

Otherwise, every Tea Party rally would be a sign insanity.

People in America of all stripes march for their causes.

Why not Iran?

[Elizabeth I]

Could the very high rate of mental illness in Europe be related to religion decline?
Gosh, I don't know. Do you think the appalling ignorance sweeping across the United States could be related to the rise in religious fundamentalism?

[Akhenaten]

So it would seem to follow that fundamentalist Muslim nations would be among the sanest societies around.





Not to the thousands of people who marched in the streets in Iran last year.





How did it seem to them?

[Sun Countess]

From the article entitled: "Religion”

“Each religion asserts that it is a means by which its adherents may come into closer contact with God, Truth, and Spiritual Power. They all promise to free adherents from spiritual bondage, and bring them into spiritual freedom. It naturally follows that a religion which frees its adherents from deception, sin, and spiritual death will have significant mental health benefits. Abraham Maslow's research after World War II showed that Holocaust survivors tended to be those who held strong religious beliefs (not necessarily temple attendance, etc), suggesting it helped people cope in extreme circumstances.” Even the anonymous Wikipedia author noted that all religions assert that they bring their adherents to the Truth. The "naturally follows" is a completely unsupported assertion, which is completely nullified when it brings up religious mumbo-jumbo like "sin" and "spiritual death."

I could probably find a Wiki article on voo-doo which claims that voodoo helps its adherents by giving them a method to cure themselves from curses, hexes, and demons.

As an atheist, I'm not so bothered by spiritual death, sin, curses, or demons. Is that because I'm in complete ignorance of the negative effect they could possibly be having on my life if only I believed in them? From my perspective, I'm much more mentally healthy than anybody who feels guilty over committing non-existent sins. Just like I'm mentally healthier than somebody who walks carefully to avoid stepping on a crack and breaking his mother's back.

Also it is logical to conclude that the closer you are to universal truth the happier or more fulfilled you will be over the long term. This is not to say there aren’t some happy (or at least temporarily happy) atheists out there, but it is possible that they could be even happier if they were closer to the truth (if atheism was not in reality true).
This may be a common sense conclusion, but can you show your workings on why it's logical? While you're at it, please demonstrate which religious people are closer to the universal truth. As the Wiki article states, this is an assertion of all religions. Are the Buddhists closer to the universal truth, or perhaps it's the Hindus, the Moslems, or the Sikhs?

All I know is that most of the atheists I know seem to be fairly happy. As I said, it's easier to be happy when you don't have to worry about breaking imaginary rules and upsetting a jealous petty god.

For instance, do you think Christians feel safer and happier when they believe that their jealous and petty god is punishing the world through a series of random natural disasters?


This could also apply to societies, if a society is in touch with universal laws and truth it would be logical to assume that that society as a whole will be better functioning and its citizens as a whole will have better mental health. If secularism is the closest to truth of all belief systems it would seem Europe should have a lower mental health problem. Oh yes, I suppose it could apply to socieities. I suppose one could assert anything one wants to, when one isn't bothered with supporting those assertions. It's just like your god's messages via natural disaster: a lot of perhaps, maybes, and could bes. You would think the truth would be a little more certain.

[Mojo]

From the article:
"38 percent of the population suffering each year from a brain disorder such as depression, anxiety, insomnia or dementia"
That is a wide swath of disorders. I went into the report and found that the defined these 38% as anyone who was reported to have any one of the following conditions
Alcohol dependence
Opioid dependence (drug dep)
Cannabis dependence (drug dep)
Psychotic disorders
Major depression
Bipolar disorder
Panic disorder
Agoraphobia
Social phobia
Generalized anxiety dis.
Specific phobias
OCD
PTSD
Somatoform disorders
Anorexia nervosa (eating dis.)
Bulimia nervosa (eating dis.)
Borderline personality dis
Dissocial personality dis
Hyperkinetic dis./ADHD
Pervasive dev. dis./autism
Conduct disorders
Mental retardation
Insomnia
Hypersomnia
Narcolepsy
Sleep apnoea
Dementias

With the current economic climate and based upon the disorders listed, which includes drug abuse, insomnia, and anxiety, I am actually surprised the percentage was only 38%. I would have thought it higher.


I am currently being treated for one of those, and I'm as sane as the next guy.

[Hi, DOC]

[Sawbones79]

Looking at the list of disorders included, I note that a fair number are disorders present from birth. Extrpolating from the OP, I assume we immediately should start a campaign of prenatal baptism to inoculate those poor foetuses (foeti?) with the great salutogenic powers of religion.

[Multivac]

Also it is logical to conclude that the closer you are to universal truth the happier or more fulfilled you will be over the long term.


If you define ultimate truth as "The ultime question of life, the Universe and everything", then ultimate truth has been known for over 20 years. the answer is 42.:D

[CriticalSock]

A single man in possession of a good fortune must be in want of a wife?

This made me chortle out loud! :) \salute

[Kopji]

Since chemical abuse was included in the 'mental illness' statistic, I'm not so quick to write off a relationship between religion and addiction. The article linked is interesting. Mostly it describes religion as more like a preventative, but not a cure.

http://www.enotes.com/drugs-alcohol-encyclopedia/religion-drug-use

The relationship between religion and drug use among young people is not completely straightforward. On the one hand, a considerable amount of research indicates that young people who are strongly committed to religion are less likely than their uncommitted counterparts to use drugs. On the other hand, data presented here and elsewhere suggest that religion has had relatively little impact on recent national declines in drug use among young people. Further examination of this relationship reveals that America's drug epidemic occurred primarily among those not affected by religion; highly religious youth were relatively immune to the plague that infected a significant portion of the nation's youth. Accordingly, we conclude that religious commitment has been, and continues to be, an effective deterrent to the use and abuse of licit and illicit drugs.

That said, in the US mental illness is almost certainly more under reported than Europe. And most people here would not consider addictions to be mental illnesses.

[dafydd]

Since chemical abuse was included in the 'mental illness' statistic, I'm not so quick to write off a relationship between religion and addiction. The article linked is interesting. Mostly it describes religion as more like a preventative, but not a cure.

That said, in the US mental illness is almost certainly more under reported than Europe. And most people here would not consider addictions to be mental illnesses.

Considering the millions in the States without medical insurance,it is certainly under reported. We look after the sick over here.

[zooterkin]

Considering the millions in the States without medical insurance,it is certainly under reported. We look after the sick over here.

For the moment, but for how much longer if Andrew Lansley gets his way?

[Beerina]

I was surprised to see just how high the figures for mental illness are in Europe.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44394646/#.Tma_hI672_I

I maintain that an increase in secularism and decrease in religiosity could be a major reason.

Well. A massive nanny state hauls into existence diagnoses of stress, anxiety, and so on, as it can get you long periods of time off with pay, followed with the requirement the company has to take you back. Rinse and repeat. Saw it with 2 people in the company I worked at when I was over there.

So...government has been acting as a replacement for religion, with the additional memetic power of taking over the ability to force you to join that religion and contribute to its "good works".


So in that sense, it is definitely related to the decline of religion, but the decline of religion is related to government taking over most of religion's duties (and coercive powers). But I don't think that's what you mean.

[dafydd]

For the moment, but for how much longer if Andrew Lansley gets his way?
I had to Google Andrew Lansley.

[TimCallahan]

DOC:

In past centuries religious devotion has resulted in the following: The massacre of Jews living in the Rhineland by crusaders on their way to the Holy Land, the Children's Crusade, flagellants and witch hunts, among other forms of irrational behavior. The ingrained, religiously based anti-Semitism prevalent in Europe well into the twentieth century helped the Nazi's implement the Holocaust. Certainly, all of these can be seen as symptoms of mental illness (as well as evil).

It has been pointed out to you that the relatively more religious United States has a greater rate of mental illness - 50% - than Europe - 38%. Considering tis fact, along with what I've noted in the paragraph above, are you ready to concede that your initial assertion is wrong? If not, why not?

BTW, such a concession would not mean that you were conceding that secularism is better than religion, merely that secularism isn't the cause of Europe's high rate of mental illness.

[Hokulele]

This made me chortle out loud! :) \salute


Yay! Another Austen fan. :)

[Ladewig]

"Mental illnesses including anxiety disorders and depression are common and under-treated in many developed and developing countries, with the highest rate found in the United States, according to a study of 14 countries."

You're just going to ignore this, yes?

Feel free to jump in and address this post any time you want DOC.

[Toke]

Feel free to jump in and address this post any time you want DOC.

According to DOC's logic it proves that secularism is the religion closest to god. :D

[Foster Zygote]

"Mental illnesses including anxiety disorders and depression are common and under-treated in many developed and developing countries, with the highest rate found in the United States, according to a study of 14 countries."

You're just going to ignore this, yes?

[Bill Thompson]

The very high rate of mental illness in Europe is related to the influx of reptilain aliens from the secret underwater base in the Bermuda Triangle. The construction of the underwater passageway linking England to France disrupted the harmonious resonance between the secret alien base with the mother ship. And this is why there are more mental ill people now than every before. I am just kidding. You would belive I was serious if I did not say so. How crazy is that?

[Rincewind]

I had to Google Andrew Lansley.

Now you just make sure you clean it up before you leave, OK?

[Bill Thompson]

I think the raise in mental illness is due to our live styles where people are out chasing the almighty dollar and turning their backs on loved ones. That or the secret underwater reptialian alien base referred to earlier.

[Rincewind]

The very high rate of mental illness in Europe is related to the influx of reptilain aliens from the secret underwater base in the Bermuda Triangle. The construction of the underwater passageway linking England to France disrupted the harmonious resonance between the secret alien base with the mother ship. And this is why there are more mental ill people now than every before. I am just kidding. You would belive I was serious if I did not say so. How crazy is that?

And you had me believing you for a minute there...

How cruel to shatter my illusions!

So, if I may misquote you - 38% of Europeans are reptilian aliens?
:)

[Rincewind]

Wouldn't it be nice to see DOC agree that s/he got the numbers wrong?

Still - I'm not holding my breath...

DOC - I'm sure everybody here is waiting for you to answer the important questions that many have raised - so, how about it?

Thanking you in anticipation...

[Bill Thompson]

And you had me believing you for a minute there...

How cruel to shatter my illusions!

So, if I may misquote you - 38% of Europeans are reptilian aliens?
:)

It is exactly how it is done if you have been keeping up with the dialog here.

[Sawbones79]

The very high rate of mental illness in Europe is related to the influx of reptilain aliens from the secret underwater base in the Bermuda Triangle. The construction of the underwater passageway linking England to France disrupted the harmonious resonance between the secret alien base with the mother ship. And this is why there are more mental ill people now than every before. I am just kidding. You would belive I was serious if I did not say so. How crazy is that?

No, that doesn't explain it at all. Reptilian aliens show a vey low prevalence of mental illness in large surveys (they're really religious, see?), and so a large influx of them should actually increase the general mental health of the population.
As for the disharmonious resonance, I've found a simple home-made tinfoil hat to be more than adequate protection.

[DOC]

From your own source material:

"Mental illnesses including anxiety disorders and depression are common and under-treated in many developed and developing countries, with the highest rate found in the United States, according to a study of 14 countries."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5111202/

Actually you brought in a different link than the one I brought in in post # 1. Your link is from 2004 and the study is from 2001 - 2003. The link in post # 1 is from 2011. Also in your link it says the US has a rate of 26%. That is lower than the 38% for Europe (as a whole) in the link I brought in.

[Lamuella]

I was surprised to see just how high the figures for mental illness are in Europe.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44394646/#.Tma_hI672_I

I maintain that an increase in secularism and decrease in religiosity could be a major reason.

Have you considered the possibility that Europe has roughly the same levels of mental illness as the rest of the world, but because of having free at the point of delivery healthcare it's more likely that a European with a mental health issue will be diagnosed than a South American with a similar condition?

You could also look at this from a heirarchy of needs point of view. If your main healthcare concern is starvation or cholera, social anxiety is going to take a back burner.

[Sawbones79]

Have you considered the possibility that Europe has roughly the same levels of mental illness as the rest of the world, but because of having free at the point of delivery healthcare it's more likely that a European with a mental health issue will be diagnosed than a South American with a similar condition?

You could also look at this from a heirarchy of needs point of view. If your main healthcare concern is starvation or cholera, social anxiety is going to take a back burner.

And there you have it. And as noted above, anxiety and depression tend to be within the area of expertise of the clergy in highly religious areas, meaning that such issues go unreported in health care statistics.

[Lamuella]

another thing to add:

They're including dementia in this survey. Dementia is overwhelmingly found in elderly patients, and can often considered to be an inevitable side effect of ageing. As countries in Europe tend to have high life expectancies (the western european country with the lowest life expectancy had a higher life expectancy than the USA), a lot more Europeans live to an age where dementia presents itself.

[Lamuella]

And there you have it. And as noted above, anxiety and depression tend to be within the area of expertise of the clergy in highly religious areas, meaning that such issues go unreported in health care statistics.

Plus, countries in the developed world in general have gone through a very lengthy process of breaking down stigma relating to mental health. It's much more likely than it used to be that someone in England (for example) would admit that they have a mental health issue, or seek treatment for it.

[Mojo]

Also in your link it says the US has a rate of 26%. That is lower than the 38% for Europe (as a whole) in the link I brought in.


Yes, but the two links are using different criteria for identifying mental illness, so can't be used as a comparison. The one that uses the same criteria for USA and European countries, and can therefore be used to compare the rates, found that the rate is higher in the USA.

[Professor Yaffle]

Nice graph here with the countries using comparable measures of mental illness:

http://www.equalitytrust.org.uk/why/evidence/mental-health

[welshdean]

I thought I'd have a look around to see if I could find anything on the subject and came across this (http://psychcentral.com/blog/archives/2011/09/06/statistics-europeans-have-mental-health-issues-too/):

Two news stories over the long holiday weekend made the rounds about the prevalence of mental disorders (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prevalence_of_mental_disorders) in Americans and Europeans. Virtually all the news stories I’ve read completely missed important information contained within the actual reports, instead doing more reporting on the news release rather than the research itself.The article goes on to state;
The European study was based upon actual research and suggested that today, up to 38 percent of Europeans may be suffering from a mental disorder — a seeming 50 percent increase over Americans. The two datasets are not directly comparable, however, since they used different methodology to arrive at their numbers.
But it appears only a few reporters bothered to read the study before reporting on it, because many simply reported on the European study with little context or understanding of its data.
Which strikes me as a little bizarre, I mean come on, who on earth would run about the place shouting about Europeans being bat-guano crazy 'cause they've turned their back on god?
Especially if they didn't/couldn't understand the data.

When the relevant data-sets are compared the very opposite is proven to be the case:
In fact, the study demonstrated no such rise in mental disorders. For the disorders tracked in an earlier 2005 study by the same authors, prevalence rates decreased from 27.4 to 27.1 percent. The reason for the “38 percent” number is simply because the researchers decided to start tracking 14 additional diagnoses — including some big ones like ADHD (http://psychcentral.com/disorders/adhd/), dementia (http://www.webmd.com/brain/types-dementia) and sleep (http://psychcentral.com/disorders/sleep/) problems (which accounted for 8.3 of the 11.1 percent difference).How does that affect your OP stance DOC? Especially when you also consider that Euro mental health has improved alongside an increase in atheism/agnosticism (http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=jdM7MjfA3fUC&pg=PA77&lpg=PA77&dq=Mattei+Dogan+%22Religious+Beliefs+in+Europe&source=bl&ots=EVbrQ9OzRv&sig=CNicHNSsVYoVk1IoJQmMqNZCSuw&hl=en&ei=7PppTqDbIsaq8QPpiOUr&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=10&ved=0CF8Q6AEwCQ#v=onepage&q=Mattei%20Dogan%20%22Religious%20Beliefs%20in%20E urope&f=false)?

In a nutshell, despite DOC's protestations to the contrary, we Europeans are of sound mind and this is reinforced by our rejection of his capricious and obdurate god thingy.

[welshdean]

Nice graph here with the countries using comparable measures of mental illness:

http://www.equalitytrust.org.uk/why/evidence/mental-health


That can't be right, the graph clearly shows a correlation twixt income inequity and mental health problems. It is common knowledge that the poorer members of society have a stronger belief in god, are you suggesting that the higher religiosity = higher levels of crazy? Oh dear DOC, this thread's not turning out to good for you is it? Still, at least that trend isn't broken. I've never seen a thread of yours go the way of your OP.

[joobz]

Actually you brought in a different link than the one I brought in in post # 1. Your link is from 2004 and the study is from 2001 - 2003. The link in post # 1 is from 2011.
Yes. This is true.

Also in your link it says the US has a rate of 26%. That is lower than the 38% for Europe (as a whole) in the link I brought in.
And this is a very stupid comment. Especially considering that I have ALREADY explained that the 2011 study includes way more conditions than the other one.

[TimCallahan]

Actually you brought in a different link than the one I brought in in post # 1. Your link is from 2004 and the study is from 2001 - 2003. The link in post # 1 is from 2011. Also in your link it says the US has a rate of 26%. That is lower than the 38% for Europe (as a whole) in the link I brought in.

I went to the link and found the following listings of countries (or in the case of China, just the city of Beijing) concerning rates of mental illness by precentage of the population:

U.S 26.4
Ukraine 20.5
France 18.4
Columbia 17.8
Lebanon 16.4
Netherlands 14.9
Mexico 12.2
Belgium 12.0
Spain 9.2
Beijing, China 9.1
Germany 9.1
Japan 8.8
Italy 8.2
Nigeria 4.7

The average of the European nations listed was a bit under 13.2%, compared with the U.S. rate of 26.4%. There seems to be no correlation between degree of religious conviction and mental illness. Otherwise, one would have to explain why Columbia, which is much more religious than Germany has a mental illness rate of 17.8%, while Germany has a rate of 9.1%. Italy, on the other hand, has a rate of only 8.2%

Also, if religion is the deciding factor, perhaps the U.S.needs to emulate Japan's eclectic mix of Buddhism and Shinto worship. That might bring our rate of 26.4% down to Japan's low rate of 8.8%. On the other hand, were we all to convert to Roman Catholicism, we might get down to Italy's rate of 8.2%. Of course, I'm not serious about either of these propositions.

The degree of government, nanny-state, interference in people's lives would also seem to have no correlation to mental illness rates. Consider that France, with the high rate of 18.4% and Germany, with a rate of 9.1% - less than half that of France - are both welfare states.

Of course, mental illness rates aren't the only measure of quality of life. Consider, for example, whether you would rather live in the U.S., with its 26.4% mental illness rate or Nigeria with its 4.7% rate.

Finally, I might note that the site only dealt with certain disorders, specifically: anxiety, mood disorders (depression, etc.), impulse control problems (compulsive gambling, etc.) and substance abuse / dependency.

Had the study included the U.K., Eire and the Russian Republic, there probably would have been greater rates of alcoholism for the European nations, just as there would be greater rates or seasonal affective disorder had the Scandinavian countries been brought in.

Had dementias, such as Alzheimer's, been measured, higher rates would be found among developed countries across the board, since more people in those countries live to be old enough to suffer such disorders.

I submit to you, DOC, that mental illness rates vary from country to country based on an eclectic mix of geographical factors - alcoholism and seasonal affective disorder being higher in northern countries, situational problems - the study noted the stress of westernization and rampant unemployment in Ukrainia, an cultural factors: The conflicts between Christians, Muslims and Druze in Lebanon probably add to the mental illness rate in Lebanon.

[TimCallahan]

I just went to another website, http://www.nmha.org/go/state-ranking, and found that for rates of chronic depression, state by state, the top ten were:

1. South Dakota
2. Hawaii
3. New Jersey
4. Iowa
5. Maryland
6. Minnesota
7. Louisiana
8. Illinois
9. North Dakota
10. Texas

Again, as in international statistics, there seems to be no discernible pattern here. To some degree, seasonal affective disorder might be the problem. But how would that account for Hawaii and Louisiana? If loss of religion is involved, why isn't irreligious California up there in the number 1 spot?

[George152]

Could the very high rate of mental illness in Europe be related to religion decline?

Rather the other way about.....

[Hokulele]

I wonder if there's some way I can secure funding to go and live in Hawaii for a year to see if I get depressed.

I'm willing to make this sacrifice in the name of science.


Considering the state of the economy in Hawai'i, I am not at all surprised chronic depression is at an all time high. The loss of tourist income, as well as the construction crash, has been very hard on the state. That is the only reason we moved last year.


Of course, Hawai'i's economic issues must have been a "natural disaster" sent by some malicious god to punish them for actually having the lowest percentage of Christians of any of the US states and not, say, a result of horrendous lack of foresight in the US banking industry...

[DOC]

I went to the link and found the following listings of countries (or in the case of China, just the city of Beijing) concerning rates of mental illness by precentage of the population:

U.S 26.4
Ukraine 20.5
France 18.4
Columbia 17.8
Lebanon 16.4
Netherlands 14.9
Mexico 12.2
Belgium 12.0
Spain 9.2
Beijing, China 9.1
Germany 9.1
Japan 8.8
Italy 8.2
Nigeria 4.7

The average of the European nations listed was a bit under 13.2%, compared with the U.S. rate of 26.4%...

You are not using the link from my OP and you did not present any link.

Bottom line is that almost 2 in 5 Europeans as of 2011 have some sort of mental illness according to the link in post #1. Show me a study that says as of 2011 almost 2 in 5 Americans have a mental illness.

[Hokulele]

Bottom line is that almost 2 in 5 Europeans as of 2011 have some sort of mental illness according to the link in post #1. Show me a study that says as of 2011 almost 2 in 5 Americans have a mental illness.


Considering the social stigma against mental illness in the US (much like the prejudice you are displaying so rampantly in this thread), is it any wonder it might possibly be underreported?

[AdMan]

You are not using the link from my OP and you did not present any link.

Bottom line is that almost 2 in 5 Europeans as of 2011 have some sort of mental illness according to the link in post #1. Show me a study that says as of 2011 almost 2 in 5 Americans have a mental illness.


You are being dishonest.

In order to make a fair comparison, the studies would need to use the exact same parameters. The original article you linked to makes this clear.

[elipse]

I just went to another website, http://www.nmha.org/go/state-ranking, and found that for rates of chronic depression, state by state, the top ten were:

1. South Dakota
2. Hawaii
3. New Jersey
4. Iowa
5. Maryland
6. Minnesota
7. Louisiana
8. Illinois
9. North Dakota
10. Texas
<snip>
If loss of religion is involved, why isn't irreligious California up there in the number 1 spot?

Orange county and their god-fearing ways keep us on the straight and narrow. Otherwise we'd have been tossed into the sea by a vengeful deity long ago.

It's 'cause god loves both christians and oranges. Fact!

[Novest]

Coming from 2 point of views based both on experience, i agree and disagree to the original post.

Agreeing - Everyone is born sane, unless you, your body has a malfunction (same as a computer, machine etc) Believing in Heaven and Hell, Good and Evil, all diagnoses related to mental illness is a simple fact - Demons like to play with brains like doctors do, that one voice you think with, pineal gland(third eye), as do Angels and other spiritual entities. So DOC is right in saying the more mental illness around is a directed relation to a religion decline, hence more Demons around doing their job, unless by mistake the good guys overdone something the user cant handle, much like drugs, results vary on individuals.


Disagreeing - No such thing as Heaven and Hell, therefor no such thing as Demons or Angels, spiritual entities so on; playing, sending a message or visions. Drug related effects, and body malfunction pretty make the primary 2.

[joobz]

You are not using the link from my OP and you did not present any link.
Why should he? That link you presented has been evaluated by a number of people already. (in posts you choose to ignore)
An analysis has been made. Your argument is clearly stupid.

Bottom line is that almost 2 in 5 Europeans as of 2011 have some sort of mental illness according to the link in post #1.
Illness including sleep apnea and insomnia.



Show me a study that says as of 2011 almost 2 in 5 Americans have a mental illness.
Here you go.

http://www.nimh.nih.gov/statistics/1ANYDIS_ADULT.shtml

46% of Americans will have had a DSM-IV disorder some time in their life. And this is by a narrower set of conditions than what was listed in your OP report.

[Leumas]

Why should he? That link you presented has been evaluated by a number of people already. (in posts you choose to ignore)
An analysis has been made. Your argument is clearly stupid.


Illness including sleep apnea and insomnia.


Here you go.

http://www.nimh.nih.gov/statistics/1ANYDIS_ADULT.shtml

46% of Americans will have had a DSM-IV disorder some time in their life. And this is by a narrower set of conditions than what was listed in your OP report.


I've had that feeling for a long time now that almost all around me are NUTS....now I KNOW they are.....oh well.:(

[Minoosh]

From the study: "A direct comparison of the prevalence of mental illnesses in other parts of the world was not available because different studies adopt varying parameters."

Removed personal comment

And I have one of those general-belief-in-God type things.

If you include dementia and alcohol dependency, as this study is doing, and perhaps anxiety, well, yeah - but none of those really meet my bar for "mentally ill." Admittedly I'm defining it fairly narrowly, as psychosis or any compulsive disorder so extreme it rules out a reasonably normal life. I don't count Alzheimer's as "mentally ill," more likely a neurological disorder that becomes more apparent in countries with higher life expectancy. Which is in itself a problem, but doesn't demonstrate any correlation with religious belief.

[TimCallahan]

You are not using the link from my OP and you did not present any link.

Bottom line is that almost 2 in 5 Europeans as of 2011 have some sort of mental illness according to the link in post #1. Show me a study that says as of 2011 almost 2 in 5 Americans have a mental illness.

From what I recall of the link you cited in the OP: (1) it didn't compare Europe and America; (2) two of the four most common mental disorders were strokes and various dementias, such as Alzheimer's. Obviously neither of these are related to religion, but are instead physical disorders.

Then, of course, we have this qoute from Joobz post # 163:

Here you go.

http://www.nimh.nih.gov/statistics/1ANYDIS_ADULT.shtml

46% of Americans will have had a DSM-IV disorder some time in their life. And this is by a narrower set of conditions than what was listed in your OP report.

[DOC]

F...46% of Americans will have had a DSM-IV disorder some time in their life. And this is by a narrower set of conditions than what was listed in your OP report.

Were not talking about over a lifetime we are talking at any given time, they are very different figures.

50% of Americans might get a broken bone at some point in their lifetime. That is a very different figure than the figure of the number of Americans that have a broken bone at the current time.

[dafydd]

Were not talking about over a lifetime we are talking at any given time, they are very different figures.

50% of Americans might get a broken bone at some point in their lifetime. That is a very different figure than the figure of the number of Americans that have a broken bone at the current time.

Irrelevant.

[Akhenaten]

Were not talking about over a lifetime we are talking at any given time, they are very different figures.

50% of Americans might get a broken bone at some point in their lifetime. That is a very different figure than the figure of the number of Americans that have a broken bone at the current time.





If mental illness is related to a lack of religiosity then does one have to find religion in order to recover from a mental illness?

Show your working.

[Craig B]

If mental illness is related to a lack of religiosity then does one have to find religion in order to recover from a mental illness?

Show your working.

Which religion works best and why? I'm not sure if St Francis Xavier's Catholic missionary work helped to alleviate mental stress in Japan in 1552: One of the things that most pains and torments these Japanese is that we teach them that the prison of hell is irrevocably shut. For they grieve over the fate of their departed children, of their parents and relatives; and they often show their grief by their tears. So they ask us if there is any hope….and I am obliged to answer that there is absolutely none. The grief at this affects and torments them wonderfully; they almost pine away with sorrow… On this sort of religiosity, which was the dominant one until recently, Baron d'Holbach observed, not that it cured mental illness, but People have suffered and become insane for centuries by the thought of eternal punishment after death. Wouldn't it be better to depend on blind matter (...) than a god who puts out traps for people, invites them to sin, and allows them to sin and commit crimes he could prevent. Only to finally get the barbarian pleasure to punish them in an excessive way, of no use for himself, without them changing their ways and without their example preventing others from committing crimes.

[nvidiot]

Were not talking about over a lifetime we are talking at any given time, they are very different figures.

50% of Americans might get a broken bone at some point in their lifetime. That is a very different figure than the figure of the number of Americans that have a broken bone at the current time.

Does the original link you posted make such a distinction in identification of mental illness?

Can you show evidence that the rates of mental illness by either set of criteria is higher in Europe than the US?

[Novest]

If mental illness is related to a lack of religiosity then does one have to find religion in order to recover from a mental illness?

Show your working.

No offense Akhenaten but that is quite a crude asking.. Religion isnt air, you don't complain when your not getting enough, its more a tree that supplies the air to keep us loving, hating, insane, sane you name it. So by asking for research or evidence in whether a tree would help someone who cant breathe pretty much supplies its own working. If you don't like the metaphor or parable so to speak, then well doesn't a family help eachother?

And need i remind you, all atheist out there, the court officially made you guys a religion, step up your family and help them if they have a mental illness and do better then any other religion you frown upon.

[pakeha]

^^^
And need i remind you, all atheist out there, the court officially made you guys a religion, step up your family and help them if they have a mental illness and do better then any other religion you frown upon.

Could you source that court decision, please?
And what does you mean by that suggestion?
That atheists don't look after their families?

[Frank Merton]

No one seems to address the obvious possibility that societies where religion is less pervasive are more honest about the occurrence of things like mental illness and suicide.

[Akhenaten]

No offense Akhenaten but that is quite a crude asking.. Religion isnt air, you don't complain when your not getting enough, its more a tree that supplies the air to keep us loving, hating, insane, sane you name it. So by asking for research or evidence in whether a tree would help someone who cant breathe pretty much supplies its own working. If you don't like the metaphor or parable so to speak, then well doesn't a family help eachother?





The good news is that I couldn't possibly be offended.

The less-good news is that it's because I don't have the foggiest what you're saying.



And need i remind you, all atheist out there, the court officially made you guys a religion, step up your family and help them if they have a mental illness and do better then any other religion you frown upon.





Umm . . .

I see pakeha has already asked you for details about this alleged court decision, so I'll content myself with asking on what basis you're implying that atheists aren't at least as caring of family members afflicted by mental illness as the religious are.

[joobz]

Were not talking about over a lifetime we are talking at any given time, they are very different figures.

50% of Americans might get a broken bone at some point in their lifetime. That is a very different figure than the figure of the number of Americans that have a broken bone at the current time.
So you DO recognize the importance of comparing statistics fairly.
Thank you for this. You just proved how dishonest and deceitful you really are.

So when you compared the OP report numbers with other American mental illness figures, you were knowingly and willfully being dishonest.


Congrats DOC, your argument has been nothing but a stupid dishonest lie.

[Mojo]

You are not using the link from my OP and you did not present any link.

Bottom line is that almost 2 in 5 Europeans as of 2011 have some sort of mental illness according to the link in post #1. Show me a study that says as of 2011 almost 2 in 5 Americans have a mental illness.


DOC, the study you linked to found relatively high levels because it used a very broad definition of mental illness.

Others have linked to figures arrived at by using the same criteria for the US and European countries that show that the US has higer levels of diagnosed mental illness.

You lose.

[joobz]

No offense Akhenaten but that is quite a crude asking.. Religion isnt air, you don't complain when your not getting enough, its more a tree that supplies the air to keep us loving, hating, insane, sane you name it. So by asking for research or evidence in whether a tree would help someone who cant breathe pretty much supplies its own working. If you don't like the metaphor or parable so to speak, then well doesn't a family help eachother?
Using this weak definition, you make is seem that religion is easily replaced by any other thing that can provide support. In this way, I agree with you. Religion, as a support network, is very helpful. But so is the chess club, warhammer 40K groups, dance class, book clubs....


And need i remind you, all atheist out there, the court officially made you guys a religion, step up your family and help them if they have a mental illness and do better then any other religion you frown upon.
If you are happy with calling a lack of belief in god and a specific belief in god both religion, you are welcome to it.

I generally don't call not-swimming a sport, but to each their own.

[Novest]

^^^

Could you source that court decision, please?
And what does you mean by that suggestion?
That atheists don't look after their families?

I saw an active article on it a few weeks ago which the headline read something like Supreme court rules Atheism a religion. Cant find it but here it a something else which dates back to 2005 on similar ground, sorry i cant provide the recent article i saw.

world.wide.web.wnd.com/?pageId=31895

I was only suggesting something you guys are already suggesting about everyone elses religion..

The good news is that I couldn't possibly be offended.

The less-good news is that it's because I don't have the foggiest what you're saying.

I see pakeha has already asked you for details about this alleged court decision, so I'll content myself with asking on what basis you're implying that atheists aren't at least as caring of family members afflicted by mental illness as the religious are.

Seriously? you don't understand the concept? Religion = Tree, Free Choice = Air, we need both. But like i said, iam only suggesting something you guys are also.

[Novest]

So you DO recognize the importance of comparing statistics fairly.
Thank you for this. You just proved how dishonest and deceitful you really are.

So when you compared the OP report numbers with other American mental illness figures, you were knowingly and willfully being dishonest.


Congrats DOC, your argument has been nothing but a stupid dishonest lie.
Question, how do you lie about something you don't believe to exist?

[joobz]

Question, how do you lie about something you don't believe to exist?

I don't understand your question.

[Novest]

Using this weak definition, you make is seem that religion is easily replaced by any other thing that can provide support. In this way, I agree with you. Religion, as a support network, is very helpful. But so is the chess club, warhammer 40K groups, dance class, book clubs....

Yep pretty much, glad someone said it :) every group or club though has their perks, enjoyments and limits.

If you are happy with calling a lack of belief in god and a specific belief in god both religion, you are welcome to it.

I generally don't call not-swimming a sport, but to each their own.
Just trying to recognize what wants to be recognized, whether or not they have a God/leader figure or not, Atheists want to be recognized as a religion.

[Novest]

I don't understand your question.:D

[joobz]

:D
I've asked you to explain your statement. As far as I can tell, it appears to be a non sequitor. If you believe otherwise, explain.

[Akhenaten]

I saw an active article on it a few weeks ago which the headline read something like Supreme court rules Atheism a religion. Cant find it but here it a something else which dates back to 2005 on similar ground, sorry i cant provide the recent article i saw.

world.wide.web.wnd.com/?pageId=31895

I was only suggesting something you guys are already suggesting about everyone elses religion..





What's a Supreme court and why should I care what it does?



Seriously? you don't understand the concept? Religion = Tree, Free Choice = Air, we need both. But like i said, iam only suggesting something you guys are also.





Seriously no. It's gibberish, and I for one am not suggesting any such thing.

[Pup]

I was only suggesting something you guys are already suggesting about everyone elses religion.

Here's the distinction.

Let's say a person disbelieves in Zeus. He also believes in Christ.

Which is his religion: believing in Christ, or not believing in Zeus?

[Novest]

I've asked you to explain your statement. As far as I can tell, it appears to be a non sequitor. If you believe otherwise, explain.

Oh im sorry, you asked me? it appears to me you just said you didn't understand. I can't make one understand something they are not capable of understanding cause it just doesn't exist.

[Novest]

What's a Supreme court and why should I care what it does?

Are you atheism? If not i assumed wrong in posting what you asked for.



Seriously no. It's gibberish, and I for one am not suggesting any such thing. Never asked you to suggest it, i just simply gave you a weak definition on support groups humans need.

[Akhenaten]

Just trying to recognize what wants to be recognized, whether or not they have a God/leader figure or not, Atheists want to be recognized as a religion.





Worked this all out for yourself, did you? Do you have a theory about what us heretics are planning?

[joobz]

Oh im sorry, you asked me? it appears to me you just said you didn't understand. I can't make one understand something they are not capable of understanding cause it just doesn't exist.
So your post was a non sequitor.
Ok. Have fun with that.

[Akhenaten]

What's a Supreme court and why should I care what it does?





Are you atheism? If not i assumed wrong in posting what you asked for.





No, atheism is a lack of belief in gods and I'm Pharaoh of the Two Lands. It seems odd that you'd get the two mixed up.

Anyway, none of that has anything to do with my question about this Supreme court thingy you mentioned.




Seriously no. It's gibberish, and I for one am not suggesting any such thing.





Never asked you to suggest it, i just simply gave you a weak definition on support groups humans need.





You claimed that you were suggesting something that atheists were also suggesting. At this stage all I can suggest is that your translator is borked.

[Mojo]

So you DO recognize the importance of comparing statistics fairly.
Thank you for this. You just proved how dishonest and deceitful you really are.

So when you compared the OP report numbers with other American mental illness figures, you were knowingly and willfully being dishonest.


Congrats DOC, your argument has been nothing but a stupid dishonest lie.Question, how do you lie about something you don't believe to exist?


Are you claiming that DOC doesn't believe the statistics he used in his argument to exist?

[Novest]

Are you claiming that DOC doesn't believe the statistics he used in his argument to exist? No, why argue over something you don't believe to exist.

[Akhenaten]

No, why argue over something you don't believe to exist.





If you take a glance at the thread title you'll see it's about an alleged connection between religiosity and mental illness.

Take it from me, this connection most definitely exists. New evidence is being posted here all the time.

[Novest]

If you take a glance at the thread title you'll see it's about an alleged connection between religiosity and mental illness.

Take it from me, this connection most definitely exists. New evidence is being posted here all the time.

Yep, already gave my insights and temptation did draw me into a debate which seemed to only prove temptation does exist.

[Agatha]

Novest, I understand you to be saying that the Supreme Court in the USA has ruled atheism to be a religion. I did a little googling and found this claim oft-repeated on blogs and religious sites, but no links yet to support the claim.

However, and this may be where you are losing your audience a little, the Supreme Court of the USA only makes decisions which affect 4.5% (yes, less than five per cent) of the world's population. To most people in the world, the SCOTUS is completely irrelevant. However, if SCOTUS has said atheism is a religion, then SCOTUS is wrong.

I don't live in the USA so SC decisions have no relevance or meaning for me.

[Cainkane1]

I was surprised to see just how high the figures for mental illness are in Europe.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44394646/#.Tma_hI672_I

I maintain that an increase in secularism and decrease in religiosity could be a major reason.
The mental illness is present despite the lack of religion. Read history and you'll see just how insane and irrational and downright vicious and bloodthirsty religion can be and still is.

[Frank Merton]

Atheism is hardly a religion. My "religion" is Buddhism and I am an atheist, since I don't think there is any such thing as gods. Most Buddhists are theists of one sort or another, but there is good reason to think that the Buddha was not. At any rate he didn't espouse any particular form of theist thinking and there is nothing in Buddhism that prevents also being an atheist.

[Frank Merton]

The mental illness is present despite the lack of religion. Read history and you'll see just how insane and irrational and downright vicious and bloodthirsty religion can be and still is.There is mental illness everywhere, but in more religious cultures it tends to be treated as a taint and therefore doesn't get reported objectively.

[Novest]

As a group, atheists have a name, but that doesn't make it atheism a religion in any sense of the word 'religion'. Support groups can be of many different sorts for those who need them, not just religions.

And SCOTUS decisions are not binding or relevant to the 95.5% of the world population which is outside the US, I am baffled that you would think otherwise.

just to get this straight from a few of you on here. If say SCOTUS does rule atheism as a religion, would that make atheists outside of USA hate other atheists for accepting it or 'using' it as a religion? Once a country like USA has made it public - which we are doubting atm due to lack of source but evidence of a man using it in a court of law - the rest of the world could pick atheist apart because you have divided yourselves. Where as say Christianity for example, not started/ruled by court is not divided but China for one, hunts done churches and closes them.

[DOC]

If mental illness is related to a lack of religiosity then does one have to find religion in order to recover from a mental illness?.

This doctor seemed to think so for one of his patients who appeared to have symptoms of depression:

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=209830

[learner]

Who was it that said (paraphrased), "We are both atheists, I just go one god further than you."

Novest, what do you call the religion that doesn't believe in Allah? You should know, you are a member, right?

Dawkins :)

[joobz]

This doctor seemed to think so for one of his patients who appeared to have symptoms of depression:

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=209830

irrelevant as you clearly are dishonest about information.

[AdMan]

Who was it that said (paraphrased), "We are both atheists, I just go one god further than you."



Stephen Henry Roberts: "I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."

[TimCallahan]

Getting back to this thread's OP, DOC and his supporters really haven't made a case for equating increases in mental illness with a decline in religion. Rather,what we see is this: Those forms of mental illness associated with aging: dementias and some forms of depression, are higher in developed nations, which have a higher ratio of people living into old age than do underdeveloped nations. Further, situational stresses, such as cultural disruption, revolutionary change, high unemployment and civil strife raise rates of mental illness. Some examples are: Ukraine - westernization and rampant unemployment; Lebanon - internal strife between Christians, Muslims and Jews. Then there are inexplicable, idiosyncratic differences between national states. What else can explain the fact that the rate of mental illness in France is twice that of neighboring Germany?

I might also point out that in places such as the Netherlands, women's shelters, housing abused spouses fleeing chronic physical assault from their husbands are overwhelmingly filled with Muslim women. Does this say something about Islam? Possibly. However, there are other factors at work in the immigrant Muslim population: cultural disruption, racial and ethnic prejudice, lack of opportunity and poverty. All of these are affecting Muslim populations in western Europe, and all of them also raise the level of mental illness. It would be interesting to compare the levels of Muslim population in France and Germany to see if this has any impact on their respective levels of mental illness.

Be that as it may, the only way one might indicate a connection between levels of religiosity and rates of mental illness would be to compare two countries otherwise equal that have different levels of religiosity.

[DOC]

This is exactly the sort of religiosity that DOC subscribes to... No it isn't, why don't you let my posts do the talking.

[nvidiot]

No it isn't, why don't you let my posts do the talking.

Your posts indeed tell us much about what you think your god wants. And it's utterly despicable.

[TimCallahan]

according to this website, http://http://www.cmha.ca/bins/content_page.asp?cid=6-20-23-43 only 20% of Canadians suffer mental illness. According to this onehttp://www.nimh.nih.gov/statistics/1ANYDIS_ADULT.shtml the overall mental illness rate in the U.S. is 46.4%.

According to this site http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_United_States church attendance in the U.S. is about 40%.According to this site http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100814152307AAdwCVo Canadian church attendance is comperable to that ofthe U.S.

Taken together, this shows no particular correlation between religion and the widely varying rates of mental illness in these two very similar countries.

[six7s]

If mental illness is related to a lack of religiosity then does one have to find religion in order to recover from a mental illness?.This doctor seemed to think so for one of his patients who appeared to have symptoms of depression:

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=209830DOC, is it only a belief in the ONE, TRUE religion that will remedy mental illness?

Or will ANY religion do the trick?

[TimCallahan]

according to this website, http://http://www.cmha.ca/bins/content_page.asp?cid=6-20-23-43 only 20% of Canadians suffer mental illness. According to this onehttp://www.nimh.nih.gov/statistics/1ANYDIS_ADULT.shtml the overall mental illness rate in the U.S. is 46.4%.

According to this site http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_United_States church attendance in the U.S. is about 40%.According to this site http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100814152307AAdwCVo Canadian church attendance is comperable to that ofthe U.S.

Taken together, this shows no particular correlation between religion and the widely varying rates of mental illness in these two very similar countries.

DOC, How do you explain the fact that mental illness rates in the U.S. are over twice what they are in Canada, when the two countries have about the same rate of church attendance?

[citizenzen]

Hate is more a xtian trait ...


Hate is unfortunately a human trait, shared by us all ... believers and non-believers alike.

It's only because Christianity has been so popular, that it's brand of hatred has been so successfully expressed.

[Craig4]

I was surprised to see just how high the figures for mental illness are in Europe.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44394646/#.Tma_hI672_I

I maintain that an increase in secularism and decrease in religiosity could be a major reason.

The consumption of ice cream leads to both drowning and shark attack.

What are Sweden and Denmark's rates of mental illness? If your idea is true Sweden should have a very high rate.

[Kopji]

Somehow I doubt that church membership reflects the same percent of mental illness that exists in the wider population.

Ah you say, this is proof that religion is some kind of awesome mental health benefit.

Ah I say, this is because mentally ill people are not welcome in churches.

[six7s]

Ah I say, this is because mentally ill people are not welcome in churches.Then you, too, would be no better than DOC in spouting half-baked bollocks

Mentally ill people ARE welcome in MANY churches, welcomed and supported by sincere and well intentioned people who genuinely care about the mental health of their 'neighbours' whilst making a conscious effort to resist any urge to push their own woo

[TimCallahan]

DOC: according to this site http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2003/05/030507080958.htm the US exceeds other developed nations in rates of mental illness and lags behind them in treatment. How do you square this with the OP?

[Kopji]

Then you, too, would be no better than DOC in spouting half-baked bollocks

Mentally ill people ARE welcome in MANY churches, welcomed and supported by sincere and well intentioned people who genuinely care about the mental health of their 'neighbours' whilst making a conscious effort to resist any urge to push their own woo

I'm sorry, I keep hearing how church attenders live longer and are happier etc etc. The assumption is always something other than the obvious fact that churches are a self selecting population of rather normal healthy people with fewer problems. The rest are a burden.


http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/06/110622115307.htm

ScienceDaily (June 22, 2011) — Mental illness of a family member can destroy the family's connection with the religious community, a new study by Baylor University psychologists has found, leading many affected families to leave the church and their faith behind.

The study shows that while families with a member who has mental illness have less involvement in faith practices, they would like their congregation to provide assistance with those issues. However, the rest of the church community seemed to overlook their need entirely. In fact, the study found that while help from the church with depression and mental illness was the second priority of families with mental illness, it ranked 42nd on the list of requests from families that did not have a family member with mental illness.

"The difference in response is staggering, especially given the picture of distress painted by the data...

[epix]

You need to brush up on your causation/correlation understanding.

There is a correlation between increased instances of drowning and ice cream consumption, but that does not mean one causes the other.

Fail.

:rolleyes:
If you call the assertion OP makes a failure, then I call what follows a major collapse of reason on the part of the "critical thinkers" who have been incapable of producing a short and comprehensive data-based argument that would make the idea that absence of religion is a main contributing factor to the development of mental illness very unlikely. Most of what I come across are emotional outbursts, ridicule, poor reasoning, ignorance and other signs which unmistakeably point toward the mob-spirited, anti-religion branch of atheism. Like always, the arguers dump a pile of crap on the OP and delude themselves into thinking that are righteously correct once again in refuting someone insight that dares to smear the mad doctrine which they go by.

You failed miserably in your criticism; you didn't move a finger to show that there is no significant correlation that would warrant the conclusion in OP. You only pointed out that there may be other causes to the observed, which is not enough to call someone's assumption a failure. Of course, the Local Worshipers of Pseudo-Reason have different standards.

[MontagK505]

If you call the assertion OP makes a failure, then I call what follows a major collapse of reason on the part of the "critical thinkers" who have been incapable of producing a short and comprehensive data-based argument that would make the idea that absence of religion is a main contributing factor to the development of mental illness very unlikely. Most of what I come across are emotional outbursts, ridicule, poor reasoning, ignorance and other signs which unmistakeably point toward the mob-spirited, anti-religion branch of atheism. Like always, the arguers dump a pile of crap on the OP and delude themselves into thinking that are righteously correct once again in refuting someone insight that dares to smear the mad doctrine which they go by.

You failed miserably in your criticism; you didn't move a finger to show that there is no significant correlation that would warrant the conclusion in OP. You only pointed out that there may be other causes to the observed, which is not enough to call someone's assumption a failure. Of course, the Local Worshipers of Pseudo-Reason have different standards.

You seem to miss the point. The link in the first post said nothing that would support the OP. The burden of proof is on the claimant.


If DOC wants to assume that secularism is a cause of mental illness, then it is up to him to produce the evidence.

An assumption is not proof. I'm amazed you don't understand this.

[Flea2143]

Not to mention causation was never established, and anybody who has taken a high school statistics class knows that correlation does not immediately imply causation.

[Mojo]

Mentally ill people ARE welcome in MANY churches...


Vulnerable people in general tend to be welcome in churches.

[Akhenaten]

This is exactly the sort of religiosity that DOC subscribes to...




No it isn't, why don't you let my posts do the talking.





Says the bloke who snipped of the pertinent part of the post that he's pretending to answer.

viz.


This is exactly the sort of religiosity that DOC subscribes to; the kind that also embraces a god that blithely snuffs out the lives of thousands, if not millions of faithful and faithless alike on a mere caprice.





I do indeed let your posts do the talking DOC. It's not my fault that what they say is vile.

[Akhenaten]

I don't understand your post, have i made you go defensive and bringing out a tactic i didn't even knew exist.





Ummm . . .


Deadmeat? or the opposite Buddhism and on a side note Atheism?

"It is better to not know Me, then to know Me and turn your back on Me" - your taking effort everyday in this regrade to scripture.





Quite frankly I'll be putting my money on nothing more than a general lack of understanding. I doubt that any special tactics on the part of your opponents need be invoked.

[joobz]

If you call the assertion OP makes a failure, then I call what follows a major collapse of reason on the part of the "critical thinkers" who have been incapable of producing a short and comprehensive data-based argument that would make the idea that absence of religion is a main contributing factor to the development of mental illness very unlikely.
Hi Epix,
Right now, Novest is doing his damndest to derail the thread, but I thought your post was well on topic, so I'd like to make some points:
you seem to be unable to find the meat of the argument here, so Let me summarize the arguments as they stand:
1.) The diseases being classified are extremely diverse.
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=7547112#post7547112

The article includes diseases which have known well defined origins. For instance, mental retardation is often congenital, vascular dementia is the result of multiple strokes later in life, PTSD is the result of a traumatic event, sleep apnea’s primary cause is obesity. This fact alone makes the “loss of religion is the reason” argument even more difficult. You will need to show how that loss of religion causes all of those underlying conditions.
Simply put, the OP made a suggestion on extremely faulty grounds.
Now, to help you out. There is evidence suggesting religion helps prevent drug use.
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=7550379#post7550379

2.) The data presented doesn’t even suggest that there would be a correlation. In fact, one person has already pointed out that when comparing apples to apples, the US ranks higher in mental illness than Europe. http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=7548371#post7548371

3.) Going one step further, here is another post which suggests that alternative explanations equally fit the data. http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=7555650#post7555650

Those are aren't the only ones, just the key arguments which have moved the thread forward.


You failed miserably in your criticism; you didn't move a finger to show that there is no significant correlation that would warrant the conclusion in OP. You only pointed out that there may be other causes to the observed, which is not enough to call someone's assumption a failure.
Actually, it is enough. In science, an author makes a hypothesis, devises an experiment to test that hypothesis and then report on the results observations. It is the reviewer’s job to see if the author’s conclusions logically fit the data. One of the reviewer’s KEY duties is to consider what alternative explanations may exist that also fit the data. If there are other issues, it is the author’s job to explain why their explanation is better than others.

[joobz]

Most of what I come across are emotional outbursts, ridicule, poor reasoning, ignorance and other signs which unmistakeably point toward the mob-spirited, anti-religion branch of atheism.

Let me paint you an alternative story and you tell me which one makes more sense.

After it was pointed out that the US had the highest mental illness rate, an argument which nullifies the OP:
DOC stated:
Actually you brought in a different link than the one I brought in in post # 1. Your link is from 2004 and the study is from 2001 - 2003. The link in post # 1 is from 2011. Also in your link it says the US has a rate of 26%. That is lower than the 38% for Europe (as a whole) in the link I brought in.

Here DOC compares two studies, which use completely different criteria. This was explained to him in the following post

Yes, but the two links are using different criteria for identifying mental illness, so can't be used as a comparison. The one that uses the same criteria for USA and European countries, and can therefore be used to compare the rates, found that the rate is higher in the USA.

Yet later, to another person, DOC repeats his arugment.
Bottom line is that almost 2 in 5 Europeans as of 2011 have some sort of mental illness according to the link in post #1. Show me a study that says as of 2011 almost 2 in 5 Americans have a mental illness.

Here DOC seems to think this value is high (yet he has no comparison to make with US data). However, I make the following answer to his request:

Here you go.
http://www.nimh.nih.gov/statistics/1ANYDIS_ADULT.shtml
46% of Americans will have had a DSM-IV disorder some time in their life. And this is by a narrower set of conditions than what was listed in your OP report.

To which, DOC states:
Were not talking about over a lifetime we are talking at any given time, they are very different figures.

50% of Americans might get a broken bone at some point in their lifetime. That is a very different figure than the figure of the number of Americans that have a broken bone at the current time.

In other words, DOC is fully aware of comparing APPLES to APPLES between studies and will use this argument when it benefits him. However, when this treatment hurts his argument, he turns a blind eye to it. This is a concrete example of standard practice of dishonesty in his presentation of data. This is what gets people mad. This is what brings out the derision.

ETA: DOC always suggests to let his posts speak for them. I think this exchange does so quite nicely.

[stokes234]

Someone may already have posted this, but -
http://www.equalitytrust.org.uk/why/evidence/mental-health

Mental health problems correlate reasonably closely in rich countries with inequality, with some anomalies.

[Professor Yaffle]

Someone may already have posted this, but -
http://www.equalitytrust.org.uk/why/evidence/mental-health

Mental health problems correlate reasonably closely in rich countries with inequality, with some anomalies.

I beat you to it again :D

[stokes234]

I beat you to it again :D

Blast. I'm off my game.

[Novest]

In the course of attributing to me a suggestion that I didn't make and persisting with the ridiculous assertion that atheism is a religion you've completely ignored the question that was asked in the post you're pretending to respond to.

Multifail.
Ok, whats atheism doing to help mental illness, since you believe its not a religion (even after i've provided a valid evidence to say someone who is atheist does by mistake)

[Foster Zygote]

Ok, whats atheism doing to help mental illness, since you believe its not a religion (even after i've provided a valid evidence to say someone who is atheist does by mistake)

That's like asking "what is not collecting stamps doing to help those with mental illness?".

Atheists can help to prevent/alleviate mental illness, but it is done using neuroscience, not atheism. Atheism, unlike many religions, doesn't pretend to solve all problems.

[Dave Rogers]

Ok, whats atheism doing to help mental illness,

Admitting that people who claim to hear the voice of God should be treated for it.

Dave

[kmortis]

This thread is undergoing routine maintenence. Until that is complete, please enjoy the New Moderated version.

[Edward Palamar]

I was surprised to see just how high the figures for mental illness are in Europe.

(Original post's url)

I maintain that an increase in secularism and decrease in religiosity could be a major reason.

There is a great comment/response at the provided link :

QUOTE :

Mental illnesses aren't just bouts of the blues, or stomach flutters before an exam. They're not worrying about whether your boss liked your proposal or a bit of stage fright. Mental illness is not a personality trait, a flaw, or a quirk. They consume your every waking moment. Every breath, every step, every thought is affected. It's no joking matter. This isn't about people who may be a little off beat or a little different or deviate from "the norm." This is about people who can't get to work on time because they retrace their route seven times to make sure they didn't hit someone by accident and not notice/hear it. This is about people who are so ill they cannot get out of bed to play with their children no matter how badly they want to. It's about people who live every moment of their lives trapped in a feeling of deepest despair or utmost terror. These are not people who are weak, ungrateful, unproductive or any less important than any of you snobbish commenters. Mental illnesses are also not always lifetime sentences--some develop mid life, some develop early and go away. By some estimates, as many as 1 in 2 Americans will, at some point, experience symptoms severe enough to be classified as a mental disorder or illness. Just like with any disease, the fact that it may come or go is not an indicator of severity. Even cancer goes into remission, but it's always there.

So for those of us who struggle with these diseases, please don't be so crude. We're exactly like you. We're your coworkers who joke with you in the break room, we're the parents of your kid's friends who drink coffee with you, and we're your relatives--except that we're terrified to talk about this to anyone BECAUSE of people like you. We take our medicine, we go to work, we come home to our families. We're diabetics of the brain.

END QUOTE
***

[kmortis]

Ok, I had to move almost 250 posts off to AAH because they were off topic. The topic is religiousity vs. mental illness. The topic is not the definition of atheism, the SCOTUS, or DOC. If you want to discuss the first of those two, go find one of the other threads about them and post there. If you want to discuss the third, look me up and we'll go for beers.

Play nice, keep on topic. And don't make me pull this thread over to the side of the forum again, or you'll be REALLY sorry, young [man/woman/semi-intelligent shade of blue]!

[Novest]

That's like asking "what is not collecting stamps doing to help those with mental illness?".

Atheists can help to prevent/alleviate mental illness, but it is done using neuroscience, not atheism. Atheism, unlike many religions, doesn't pretend to solve all problems.

Don't tell me, you just took science away from religion and claimed it as your own, like there are no scientist or doctors that have a religion. If you did, try again.

[stokes234]

Don't tell me, you just took science away from religion and claimed it as your own, like there are no scientist or doctors that have a religion. If you did, try again.

He didn't claim that all scientists that have contributed to neuroscience are atheists. He claimed that atheists can help and have helped alleviate mental illness by contributing to neuroscience.

[Sawbones79]

There is a great comment/response at the provided link :

QUOTE :

Mental illnesses aren't just bouts of the blues, or stomach flutters before an exam. They're not worrying about whether your boss liked your proposal or a bit of stage fright. Mental illness is not a personality trait, a flaw, or a quirk. They consume your every waking moment. Every breath, every step, every thought is affected. It's no joking matter. This isn't about people who may be a little off beat or a little different or deviate from "the norm." This is about people who can't get to work on time because they retrace their route seven times to make sure they didn't hit someone by accident and not notice/hear it. This is about people who are so ill they cannot get out of bed to play with their children no matter how badly they want to. It's about people who live every moment of their lives trapped in a feeling of deepest despair or utmost terror. These are not people who are weak, ungrateful, unproductive or any less important than any of you snobbish commenters. Mental illnesses are also not always lifetime sentences--some develop mid life, some develop early and go away. By some estimates, as many as 1 in 2 Americans will, at some point, experience symptoms severe enough to be classified as a mental disorder or illness. Just like with any disease, the fact that it may come or go is not an indicator of severity. Even cancer goes into remission, but it's always there.

So for those of us who struggle with these diseases, please don't be so crude. We're exactly like you. We're your coworkers who joke with you in the break room, we're the parents of your kid's friends who drink coffee with you, and we're your relatives--except that we're terrified to talk about this to anyone BECAUSE of people like you. We take our medicine, we go to work, we come home to our families. We're diabetics of the brain.

END QUOTE
***

[applauds]
That's a great way to put it, and expressing a panic attack as a "healthy hyperventilation" is just the opposite.

[TimCallahan]

Novest: Getting back to the OP, DOC suggested that the high rates of mental illness in Europe was caused by a decline in religion. We have pointed out the following:

1) The comparatively more religious U.S. has a higher rate of mental illness than does Europe as a whole.

2) Within Europe, and across the globe, taken country by country, there seems to be no correlation between rates of mental illness and level of religiosity.

3) While Canada and the U.S. have comparable levels church attendance, Canada's rate of mental illness is less than half that of the U.S.

4) In the study DOC cited, two of the major forms of mental illness were strokes and various senile dementias, such as Alzheimer's; i.e. they are physically based and have nothing to do with religion or the lack of it. Both strokes and senile dementias, being functions of old age, will be higher in the developed world, where there are greater numbers of people who make it into old age.

5) Mental illness is high in counties experiencing high rates of unemployment, cultural disruption and civil strife. The first two afflict the Ukraine; the last afflicts Lebanon.

6) Taken all in all, rates of mental illness seem to vary from one country to another based on specific idiosyncratic conditions. They seem to have nothing whatsoever to do with levels of religiosity. This is particularly true of the striking difference in rates of mental illness between the U.S. and Canada, two countries more culturally alike than most any others in the world and with comparable levels of church attendance.

7) There is nothing in what I've noted above that smacks of some "atheist religion." We've pointed all this out to DOC, who has essentially not responded to these objective facts. Since DOC hasn't responded to the objections raised against his OP, perhaps you'd like to give that a try.

[citizenzen]

Novest: Getting back to the OP, DOC suggested that the high rates of mental illness in Europe was caused by a decline in religion.


If as some have claimed, atheism is a religion, then is there really a decline in religion at all?

:confused:

[six7s]

Novest: Getting back to the OP, DOC suggested that the high rates of mental illness in Europe was caused by a decline in religion.If as some have claimed, atheism is a religion, then is there really a decline in religion at all?

:confused:Nominated!!11!! (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=7565685#post7565685)

:D

[catsmate1]

So, to summarise:


DOC claims that the higher level of mental illness (in Europe is linked to the decline in religious belief there.
DOC is confronted with evidence that the level of mental illness in Europe is lower than in the USA.
DOC is shown other plausible reasons for an apparently higher level of mental illness in Europe; better health care, less stigma attaching to mental illness, poor methodology in the data gathering.
DOC is shown evidence that there is no link between levels of religious belief and levels of mental illness.
DOC ignore all these facts.

Is this accurate?

[edge]

If as some have claimed, atheism is a religion, then is there really a decline in religion at all?

:confused:

It's an increase in anti-religion.
Predicted.

[TimCallahan]

It's an increase in anti-religion.
Predicted.

Edge, perhaps you can answer the post I addressed to Novest. I'm particularly interested in your response to the fact that, though the U.S. and Canada have comparable rates of church attendance, Canada's mental illness rate - 20% is less than half that of the U.S.

[Foster Zygote]

Don't tell me, you just took science away from religion and claimed it as your own, like there are no scientist or doctors that have a religion. If you did, try again.

Your response has nothing to do with my post. You asked what atheism is doing to help people with mental illnesses. I simply pointed out that atheism has nothing to do with helping people with mental illnesses, it is simply a lack of belief in gods. Although atheists can certainly be concerned with and involved with the treatment of such conditions through the use of the scientific method.

[edge]

Edge, perhaps you can answer the post I addressed to Novest. I'm particularly interested in your response to the fact that, though the U.S. and Canada have comparable rates of church attendance, Canada's mental illness rate - 20% is less than half that of the U.S.

It's the country, fresh air, obscurity, woods, ice, and nature.
They’re not at war and in debt either.
The rate of church goers doesn't matter, there are many believers who don't go to church for what ever reasons.
The whole world is crazy.

[AdMan]

The rate of church goers doesn't matter, there are many believers who don't go to church for what ever reasons.



So your point is that Canadians are more religious than Americans, even if they may not go to church, and that helps account for their lower rates of mental illness, is that right?

Let's see...

The most recent ARIS report, released March 9, 2009, found in 2008, 34.2 million Americans (15.0%) claim no religion, of which 1.6% explicitly describes itself as atheist (0.7%) or agnostic (0.9%), nearly double the previous 2001 ARIS survey figure of 0.9%.[28] The highest occurrence of "nones", according to the 2008 ARIS report, reside in Vermont, with 34% surveyed.[29]

The latest statistics show that a lack of religious identity increased in every US state between 1990 and 2008.[30] However less than 2% of the U.S. population describes itself as atheist.[31]

Atheism is more prevalent in Canada than in the United States, with 19–30% of the population holding an atheistic or agnostic viewpoint.

... A recent survey in 2008 found that 23% of Canadians said they did not believe in a god.


Demographics of atheism - North America (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_atheism#North_America)

Highlights added.

[joobz]

They’re not at war and in debt either.
You just supplied to additional factors that are likely to have more of an impact than religion on mental health.


The rate of church goers doesn't matter,...
exactly. This is Tim's point.

The data supports that the rate of decline in religion likely has no significant impact on the mental health of a populous.

[dafydd]

You just supplied to additional factors that are likely to have more of an impact than religion on mental health.



exactly. This is Tim's point.

The data supports that the rate of decline in religion likely has no significant impact on the mental health of a populous.

The decline of religion would show that mental health is improving.

[Novest]

Your response has nothing to do with my post. You asked what atheism is doing to help people with mental illnesses. I simply pointed out that atheism has nothing to do with helping people with mental illnesses, it is simply a lack of belief in gods. Although atheists can certainly be concerned with and involved with the treatment of such conditions through the use of the scientific method.
Yes it does lol. Cause i can say the same, Christian doctors and scientist use scientific methods to help a malfunctioning body, just as a non-believer doctor and scientist. This thread is a downer towards religion, assuming and i repeat very softly, assuming there is no religious person who believes in science.

Oh the other hand, Religion helps to deal with the demons that float around, now just because you don't believe God(s) to not exist, do you believe Demons not to exist? What if an atheist were being mentally attacked by a demon, would you tell him, here you go his a magic demon pill science conjured up.

[Novest]

So, to summarise:


DOC claims that the higher level of mental illness (in Europe is linked to the decline in religious belief there.
DOC is confronted with evidence that the level of mental illness in Europe is lower than in the USA.
DOC is shown other plausible reasons for an apparently higher level of mental illness in Europe; better health care, less stigma attaching to mental illness, poor methodology in the data gathering.
DOC is shown evidence that there is no link between levels of religious belief and levels of mental illness.
DOC ignore all these facts.

Is this accurate?
Anything to do with a religion, you must add Demons and Angels.

[Robrob]

I was surprised to see just how high the figures for mental illness are in Europe.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44394646/#.Tma_hI672_I

I maintain that an increase in secularism and decrease in religiosity could be a major reason.

And with equal basis in fact, I maintain an increase in Unobtanium levels and a decrease in Admantium could be a major reason.

[zooterkin]

Anything to do with a religion, you must add Demons and Angels.

Dan Brown is responsible for mental illness? You might be on to something there...

[Sawbones79]

Yes it does lol. Cause i can say the same, Christian doctors and scientist use scientific methods to help a malfunctioning body, just as a non-believer doctor and scientist. This thread is a downer towards religion, assuming and i repeat very softly, assuming there is no religious person who believes in science.

Oh the other hand, Religion helps to deal with the demons that float around, now just because you don't believe God(s) to not exist, do you believe Demons not to exist? What if an atheist were being mentally attacked by a demon, would you tell him, here you go his a magic demon pill science conjured up.

All right, religion might be useful against demons, I give you that. However, the existence of demons is kind of tied into religion in the same way lightsabers are tied in with Star Wars. In short, there are no demons.

[zooterkin]

Yes it does lol. Cause i can say the same, Christian doctors and scientist use scientific methods to help a malfunctioning body, just as a non-believer doctor and scientist.

Which is exactly the point being made; the religious beliefs of the doctors and scientists are irrelevant as long as they don't interfere with the research.

This thread is a downer towards religion, assuming and i repeat very softly, assuming there is no religious person who believes in science.

Please show where someone is assuming that in this thread.

Oh the other hand, Religion helps to deal with the demons that float around, now just because you don't believe God(s) to not exist, do you believe Demons not to exist? What if an atheist were being mentally attacked by a demon, would you tell him, here you go his a magic demon pill science conjured up.
Are you being serious? Do you have evidence for the existence of demons?

[laca]

Anything to do with a religion, you must add Demons and Angels.

Oh, we must? Let's see your take on this...

Coming from 2 point of views based both on experience, i agree and disagree to the original post.

Agreeing - Everyone is born sane, unless you, your body has a malfunction (same as a computer, machine etc) Believing in Heaven and Hell, Good and Evil, all diagnoses related to mental illness is a simple fact - Demons like to play with brains like doctors do, that one voice you think with, pineal gland(third eye), as do Angels and other spiritual entities. So DOC is right in saying the more mental illness around is a directed relation to a religion decline, hence more Demons around doing their job, unless by mistake the good guys overdone something the user cant handle, much like drugs, results vary on individuals.


Disagreeing - No such thing as Heaven and Hell, therefor no such thing as Demons or Angels, spiritual entities so on; playing, sending a message or visions. Drug related effects, and body malfunction pretty make the primary 2.

So which is it? Because one is not like the other.

[DOC]

Novest: Getting back to the OP, DOC suggested that the high rates of mental illness in Europe was caused by a decline in religion. We have pointed out the following:

1) The comparatively more religious U.S. has a higher rate of mental illness than does Europe as a whole... What link says the current US rate for mental illness is higher than the 38% for Europe as was shown in the link in post #1?

[DOC]

So, to summarise:

[LIST=1]
DOC claims that the higher level of mental illness (in Europe is linked to the decline in religious belief there.
DOC is confronted with evidence that the level of mental illness in Europe is lower than in the USA.

Where, which post says the American rate is higher than 38%. And we are not talking about a once in a lifetime occurrence, we are talking the current rate.

[Leif Roar]

What link says the current US rate for mental illness is higher then the 38% for Europe as was shown in the link in post #1?

The study linked in the original post says nothing about the prevalence of mental illness in Europe. It talks about brain dysfunction, which in their use is a very broad term indeed.

[Sawbones79]

The study linked in the original post says nothing about the prevalence of mental illness in Europe. It talks about brain dysfunction, which in their use is a very broad term indeed.


It could be argued that there's no definitite line between neurological and mental illness, but that's another topic. I definitely agree that the study does not make an adequate statement about the prevalence of mental illness. If DOC actually wanted to prove anything, he should look into studies documenting eventual covariations between religosity and experienced psychosocial wellbeing.

[Idiot Wind]

Novest: Getting back to the OP, DOC suggested that the high rates of mental illness in Europe was caused by a decline in religion. We have pointed out the following:

1) The comparatively more religious U.S. has a higher rate of mental illness than does Europe as a whole.

2) Within Europe, and across the globe, taken country by country, there seems to be no correlation between rates of mental illness and level of religiosity.

3) While Canada and the U.S. have comparable levels church attendance, Canada's rate of mental illness is less than half that of the U.S.

4) In the study DOC cited, two of the major forms of mental illness were strokes and various senile dementias, such as Alzheimer's; i.e. they are physically based and have nothing to do with religion or the lack of it. Both strokes and senile dementias, being functions of old age, will be higher in the developed world, where there are greater numbers of people who make it into old age.

5) Mental illness is high in counties experiencing high rates of unemployment, cultural disruption and civil strife. The first two afflict the Ukraine; the last afflicts Lebanon.

6) Taken all in all, rates of mental illness seem to vary from one country to another based on specific idiosyncratic conditions. They seem to have nothing whatsoever to do with levels of religiosity. This is particularly true of the striking difference in rates of mental illness between the U.S. and Canada, two countries more culturally alike than most any others in the world and with comparable levels of church attendance.

7) There is nothing in what I've noted above that smacks of some "atheist religion." We've pointed all this out to DOC, who has essentially not responded to these objective facts. Since DOC hasn't responded to the objections raised against his OP, perhaps you'd like to give that a try.

Good points, though I have my reservations about the highlighted one. They are all physical disorders unless we want to invoke mind/body dualism. I don;t see the difference between depression and stroke in that respect. They're both caused by brain dysfunction.

[DOC]

Good points, though I have my reservations about the highlighted one. They are all physical disorders unless we want to invoke mind/body dualism. I don;t see the difference between depression and stroke in that respect. They're both caused by brain dysfunction.

Personal and societal sin could be a contributing factor to the causing of physical disorders. For example if highly processed foods are a sin and eating highly processed foods all of your life contribute to stroke or depression, then sin was the ultimate cause of those physical diseases.

If overworking your employees is a sin. Then the physical strokes which might have been caused by that overwork is related to sin even though it is physical in nature.

If the rich as a whole don't want to be fairly taxed, that could be a sin. This sin might cause less money to be placed where it is needed more and thus causing more stress on certain groups of people thus increasing the chances for mental illness in those groups. Thus sin indirectly caused some mental illness.

[welshdean]

Edge, perhaps you can answer the post I addressed to Novest. I'm particularly interested in your response to the fact that, though the U.S. and Canada have comparable rates of church attendance, Canada's mental illness rate - 20% is less than half that of the U.S.
It's the country, fresh air, obscurity, woods, ice, and nature.
They’re not at war and in debt either.
The rate of church goers doesn't matter, there are many believers who don't go to church for what ever reasons.
The whole world is crazy.

Thanks for clearing it up for us :boggled:.

[dafydd]

Personal and societal sin could be a contributing factor to the causing of physical disorders. For example if highly processed foods are a sin and eating highly processed foods all of your life contribute to stroke or depression, then sin was the ultimate cause of those physical diseases.

If overworking your employees is a sin. Then the physical strokes which might have been caused by that overwork is related to sin even though it is physical in nature.

If the rich as a whole don't want to be fairly taxed, that could be a sin. This sin might cause less money to be placed where it is needed more and thus causing more stress on certain groups of people thus increasing the chances for mental illness in those groups. Thus sin indirectly caused some mental illness.

There are metaphysical strokes? You must have lived on highly processed food all your life.

[Akhenaten]

Personal and societal sin could be a contributing factor to the causing of physical disorders. For example if highly processed foods are a sin and eating highly processed foods all of your life contribute to stroke or depression, then sin was the ultimate cause of those physical diseases.





There's no such thing as sin and your analogy is absurd.



If overworking your employees is a sin. Then the physical strokes which might have been caused by that overwork is related to sin even though it is physical in nature.





It's not.



If the rich as a whole don't want to be fairly taxed, that could be a sin. This sin might cause less money to be placed where it is needed more and thus causing more stress on certain groups of people thus increasing the chances for mental illness in those groups.





No it couldn't.



Thus sin indirectly caused some mental illness.





This conclusion is too clueless to even be described as a non sequitur.

[dafydd]

This conclusion is too clueless to even be described as a non sequitur.

We need a whole new category to describe Doc's ramblings.

[Craig B]

We need a whole new category to describe Doc's ramblings.

Maybe by "sin" DOC means "reprehensible act". Underpaying employees and evading taxes do indeed fall into that category. But these things happen in the USA as well as, or even more than, in Europe. So it's still hard to make sense of DOC's argument.

[Mojo]

Personal and societal sin could be a contributing factor to the causing of physical disorders. For example if highly processed foods are a sin and eating highly processed foods all of your life contribute to stroke or depression, then sin was the ultimate cause of those physical diseases.

If overworking your employees is a sin. Then the physical strokes which might have been caused by that overwork is related to sin even though it is physical in nature.

If the rich as a whole don't want to be fairly taxed, that could be a sin. This sin might cause less money to be placed where it is needed more and thus causing more stress on certain groups of people thus increasing the chances for mental illness in those groups. Thus sin indirectly caused some mental illness.


Your argument wasn't that sin causes mental illnes. It was that the decline of religion is linked to increased rates of mental illness.

You haven't provided any evidence that these activities are sins, or that atheists are more likely to do these than theists. The under-representation of atheists in the American prison population suggests that atheists may actually sin less than theists (of course, it could just be that they are smart enough not to get caught so often).

And, of course, this is another of your circular arguments. You are claiming that "sin" causes certain conditions, and then defining certain activities that you think may cause these conditions as "sins".

[Pup]

This new angle to the argument seems to be saying that religion is a more useful way to enforce behavior. The problem is that it becomes a two-step process:

1) The religion has to correctly identify what behaviors lead to higher mental illness and label it a sin.

2) The religion has to enforce this better than would occur in a society without the religion.

[joobz]

Where, which post says the American rate is higher than 38%. And we are not talking about a once in a lifetime occurrence, we are talking the current rate.
As you recognize that we must use equivalent statistics, your request is silly. Until a study is done with the same criteria as used in the OP, your request is simply not honest.

Here is an apples to apples comparison between countries showing US as the top of the heap.

I went to the link and found the following listings of countries (or in the case of China, just the city of Beijing) concerning rates of mental illness by precentage of the population:

U.S 26.4
Ukraine 20.5
France 18.4
Columbia 17.8
Lebanon 16.4
Netherlands 14.9
Mexico 12.2
Belgium 12.0
Spain 9.2
Beijing, China 9.1
Germany 9.1
Japan 8.8
Italy 8.2
Nigeria 4.7

The average of the European nations listed was a bit under 13.2%, compared with the U.S. rate of 26.4%. There seems to be no correlation between degree of religious conviction and mental illness. Otherwise, one would have to explain why Columbia, which is much more religious than Germany has a mental illness rate of 17.8%, while Germany has a rate of 9.1%. Italy, on the other hand, has a rate of only 8.2%

Also, if religion is the deciding factor, perhaps the U.S.needs to emulate Japan's eclectic mix of Buddhism and Shinto worship. That might bring our rate of 26.4% down to Japan's low rate of 8.8%. On the other hand, were we all to convert to Roman Catholicism, we might get down to Italy's rate of 8.2%. Of course, I'm not serious about either of these propositions.

The degree of government, nanny-state, interference in people's lives would also seem to have no correlation to mental illness rates. Consider that France, with the high rate of 18.4% and Germany, with a rate of 9.1% - less than half that of France - are both welfare states.

Of course, mental illness rates aren't the only measure of quality of life. Consider, for example, whether you would rather live in the U.S., with its 26.4% mental illness rate or Nigeria with its 4.7% rate.

Finally, I might note that the site only dealt with certain disorders, specifically: anxiety, mood disorders (depression, etc.), impulse control problems (compulsive gambling, etc.) and substance abuse / dependency.

Had the study included the U.K., Eire and the Russian Republic, there probably would have been greater rates of alcoholism for the European nations, just as there would be greater rates or seasonal affective disorder had the Scandinavian countries been brought in.

Had dementias, such as Alzheimer's, been measured, higher rates would be found among developed countries across the board, since more people in those countries live to be old enough to suffer such disorders.

I submit to you, DOC, that mental illness rates vary from country to country based on an eclectic mix of geographical factors - alcoholism and seasonal affective disorder being higher in northern countries, situational problems - the study noted the stress of westernization and rampant unemployment in Ukrainia, an cultural factors: The conflicts between Christians, Muslims and Druze in Lebanon probably add to the mental illness rate in Lebanon.

[joobz]

Personal and societal sin could be a contributing factor to the causing of physical disorders. For example if highly processed foods are a sin and eating highly processed foods all of your life contribute to stroke or depression, then sin was the ultimate cause of those physical diseases.

If overworking your employees is a sin. Then the physical strokes which might have been caused by that overwork is related to sin even though it is physical in nature.
Leading risk factor for strokes is old age.
are you going to tell me that being old is a sin?




If the rich as a whole don't want to be fairly taxed, that could be a sin. This sin might cause less money to be placed where it is needed more and thus causing more stress on certain groups of people thus increasing the chances for mental illness in those groups. Thus sin indirectly caused some mental illness.
So mental illness in the poor is caused by the sins of the rich?
God, punishes poor people for other people's sins?


DOC, your world view is so bizarrely arbitrarily evil.


ETA:
DOC, The leading cause of vaginal prolapse(the vagina inverting out of the body) is multiple child births. Using your argument, "Being Fruitful and Multiplying" is a sin.

[zooterkin]

DOC, The leading cause of vaginal prolapse(the vagina inverting out of the body) is multiple child births. Using your argument, "Being Fruitful and Multiplying" is a sin.

So, a religion that, for the sake of argument, encourages large families by opposing the use of birth control could be viewed as encouraging sin?

[joobz]

So, a religion that, for the sake of argument, encourages large families by opposing the use of birth control could be viewed as encouraging sin?

If we accept DOC's argument for sin, then we MUST conclude it as such.

[Mojo]

If the rich as a whole don't want to be fairly taxed, that could be a sin. This sin might cause less money to be placed where it is needed more and thus causing more stress on certain groups of people thus increasing the chances for mental illness in those groups. Thus sin indirectly caused some mental illness.


Where does the "Religious Right" fit into this?

[Cainkane1]

Personal and societal sin could be a contributing factor to the causing of physical disorders. For example if highly processed foods are a sin and eating highly processed foods all of your life contribute to stroke or depression, then sin was the ultimate cause of those physical diseases.

If overworking your employees is a sin. Then the physical strokes which might have been caused by that overwork is related to sin even though it is physical in nature.

If the rich as a whole don't want to be fairly taxed, that could be a sin. This sin might cause less money to be placed where it is needed more and thus causing more stress on certain groups of people thus increasing the chances for mental illness in those groups. Thus sin indirectly caused some mental illness.
Most people I have been unfortunant to know who mistreat people such as their workers, wives a weaker student etc are smug and self satisfied with themselves. Often nothing happens to them or if it does the consequences are totally inadquate to the reprehensible acts they commit.

Sin is relative and non existent to an atheist. The people are exactly mentally ill they have just found out what they enjoy in life and they do it. This includes religous biggots who are the biggest offenders of all.

[X]

Personal and societal sin could be a contributing factor to the causing of physical disorders. For example if highly processed foods are a sin and eating highly processed foods all of your life contribute to stroke or depression, then sin was the ultimate cause of those physical diseases.

If overworking your employees is a sin. Then the physical strokes which might have been caused by that overwork is related to sin even though it is physical in nature.

If the rich as a whole don't want to be fairly taxed, that could be a sin. This sin might cause less money to be placed where it is needed more and thus causing more stress on certain groups of people thus increasing the chances for mental illness in those groups. Thus sin indirectly caused some mental illness.


That is a hell of a lot of unsupported supposition and conjecture.


Maybe we should define poor logic as a sin...

[edge]

Maybe by "sin" DOC means "reprehensible act". Underpaying employees and evading taxes do indeed fall into that category. But these things happen in the USA as well as, or even more than, in Europe. So it's still hard to make sense of DOC's argument.

Not from a believers point of view.

[AdMan]

Not from a believers point of view.


Even when the supposed "evidence" he uses to support his points has been proven wrong again and again?

Your belief blinds you to the truth.

[joobz]

Not from a believers point of view.
Edge,
Do you agree with DOC's argument that strokes are a result of sin?

[TimCallahan]

Personal and societal sin could be a contributing factor to the causing of physical disorders. For example if highly processed foods are a sin and eating highly processed foods all of your life contribute to stroke or depression, then sin was the ultimate cause of those physical diseases.

If overworking your employees is a sin. Then the physical strokes which might have been caused by that overwork is related to sin even though it is physical in nature.

If the rich as a whole don't want to be fairly taxed, that could be a sin. This sin might cause less money to be placed where it is needed more and thus causing more stress on certain groups of people thus increasing the chances for mental illness in those groups. Thus sin indirectly caused some mental illness.

Again, I was referring to mental illness rates in Europe, where they, arguably eat less processed food than we do. Also, working conditions in Europe are generally superior to those in the U.S., where trade unions have steadily been loosing ground for decades. Finally, disparities between the rich and the poor are far greater in the U.S. than in Europe.

Every one of your arguments fails when it comes to explaining levels of stroke and senile dementia in Europe. The one factor that would increase these two conditions in Europe is a larger percentage of old people in developed societies than in those that are underdeveloped. i.e. greater life expectancy.

[Sun Countess]

Personal and societal sin could be a contributing factor to the causing of physical disorders. For example if highly processed foods are a sin and eating highly processed foods all of your life contribute to stroke or depression, then sin was the ultimate cause of those physical diseases. If overworking your employees is a sin. Then the physical strokes which might have been caused by that overwork is related to sin even though it is physical in nature.

If the rich as a whole don't want to be fairly taxed, that could be a sin. This sin might cause less money to be placed where it is needed more and thus causing more stress on certain groups of people thus increasing the chances for mental illness in those groups. Thus sin indirectly caused some mental illness.
Sin is a completely made-up concept. And please stop using weasly words, such as "maybe" and "if." Stand up for what you believe in. Say it straight out. I get that you take your cues from your imaginary god who never says things directly, but sends very confusing signals, such as earthquakes and mental illness statistics that include insomnia so that his followers can mangle them, especially when they try to insert causations into any dubious correlations.

DOC, are you ever worried that the worst sin of all is reading messages into random and natural events? Or maybe it's placing the blame for all the world's ills on other people believing and behaving in ways that you don't like. You seem to hate the Muslims for demonizing women, yet you demonize women, Muslims, atheists, and people who practice voodoo.



Not from a believers point of view. That's because it's easy to get believers to believe any ridiculous something as long as it fits into their worldview and doesn't inconvenience them too much. I don't see believers asking for their own rights to be stripped from them, or saying that earthquakes and mental illness are due to their own sinful lifestyles. Maybe if they stopped being so judgmental and got out of everybody else's business, we'd have fewer earthquakes and hurricanes.**



**Not that I believe this, but the believers should at least think about it if they didn't want to seem like raging hypocrites. Oh wait. I see where I made my mistake.

[TimCallahan]

Where, which post says the American rate is higher than 38%. And we are not talking about a once in a lifetime occurrence, we are talking the current rate.

Here:http://psychcentral.com/blog/archives/2011/09/03/cdc-statistics-mental-illness-in-the-us/. This, of course is for mental illnes over a lifetime, so you may decide that disqualifies these findings.

You might also want to look here, http://www.webmd.com/mental-health/news/20040601/rate-of-mental-illness-is-staggering?page=2, where the WHO says that the U.S. leads all other countries with a current mental illness rate of 24%, followed closely by the Ukraine, the only country in the study whose alcoholism rate exceeds that of the U.S. I should point out that this study apparently focused on anxiety, depression and drug dependency, while the study of Europe you cited in the OP included strokes and senile dementias.

Herein, I suspect, lies the rub: We may be talking past one another. Consider this quote from the study you cited in your OP:

A direct comparison of the prevalence of mental illnesses in other parts of the world was not available because different studies adopt varying parameters.

Thus, we have no way of knowing if, were the same parameters applied in the same year, the U.S. rates (not measured in this study) would be higher, lower or comparable to those in Europe.

I submit that you have failed to demonstrate any correlation between decline of religion and increased rates of mental illness. BTW, in arguing that mental illness rates are higher in the U.S., I am not arguing this is the dault of religion per se. What I see in all these statistics are the following:

1) As life expectancy increases, rates of mental illness related to senile dementias, strokes and depression will rise. Therefore, we will see higher rates of mental illness in developed nations than in underdeveloped nations.

2) Much mental illness in underdeveloped nations goes unreported due to lack of any infrastructure that includes psychiatric screening and treatment.

3) Idiosyncratic factors peculiar to given nations contribute greatly to rates of mental illness. These include the following: greater stress in the U.S. than in Canada, due to the U.S. being more heavily involved in international conflicts; seasonal affective disorder contributing to stress, anxiety and depression in northern countries; internal civil strife in places like Lebanon; and conditional stresses fueled by economic recession in the U.S. and Europe.

[DOC]

Sin is a completely made-up concept...Not to most of the 82% of Americans and the 52% of Europeans who say they believe in God.

I would imagine the above people would say the Holocaust is a sin.

[joobz]

Not to most of the 82% of Americans and the 52% of Europeans who say they believe in God.

I would imagine the above people would say the Holocaust is a sin.
Are you now saying that since Sin may cause stroke and the Holocaust is a sin,
that the Holocaust is causing strokes in Modern Europeans?

[Lothian]

Not to most of the 82% of Americans and the 52% of Europeans who say they believe in God.

I would imagine the above people would say the Holocaust is a sin.Was the Holocaust what the Christians in Germany did to the Jews?

[DOC]

DOC is confronted with evidence that the level of mental illness in Europe is lower than in the USA.

Where, which post says the American rate is higher than 38%. And we are not talking about a once in a lifetime occurrence, we are talking the current rate.

Here:http://psychcentral.com/blog/archives/2011/09/03/cdc-statistics-mental-illness-in-the-us/. This, of course is for mental illnes over a lifetime, so you may decide that disqualifies these findings...

The link in post one is not talking about over a life time, it is talking about each year. Quote from the link cited in post #1:

Europeans are plagued by mental and neurological illnesses, with almost 165 million people or 38 percent of the population suffering each year from a brain disorder such as depression, anxiety, insomnia or dementia, according to a large new study.

You might also want to look here, http://www.webmd.com/mental-health/news/20040601/rate-of-mental-illness-is-staggering?page=2, where the WHO says that the U.S. leads all other countries with a current mental illness rate of 24%, followed closely by the Ukraine, the only country in the study whose alcoholism rate exceeds that of the U.S. I should point out that this study apparently focused on anxiety, depression and drug dependency, while the study of Europe you cited in the OP included strokes and senile dementias.

Herein, I suspect, lies the rub: We may be talking past one another. Consider this quote from the study you cited in your OP:

A direct comparison of the prevalence of mental illnesses in other parts of the world was not available because different studies adopt varying parameters.

Thus, we have no way of knowing if, were the same parameters applied in the same year, the U.S. rates (not measured in this study) would be higher, lower or comparable to those in Europe.

Then people in here should stop saying the evidence shows the rates in Europe are lower.

[DOC]

Are you now saying that since Sin may cause stroke and the Holocaust is a sin,
that the Holocaust is causing strokes in Modern Europeans?

I maintain your statement makes no sense.

[Akhenaten]

Not to most of the 82% of Americans and the 52% of Europeans who say they believe in God.





The people who subscribe to the made-up concept of god believe in the made-up concept of sin?

Well, there's a surprise.



I would imagine the above people would say the Holocaust is a sin.





And 87%* of the people whom you ask "What does Harry Potter do with his wand?" will say "Magic".

Does this mean that magic exists?




*13% of people have their mind in the gutter. Figures are approximate.

[joobz]

I maintain your statement makes no sense.
I agree, but it is the logical conclusion from your argument:

Let's see, shall we?

Personal and societal sin could be a contributing factor to the causing of physical disorders.
you claim that Sin may causes physical disease.
you even give an example:
If overworking your employees is a sin. Then the physical strokes which might have been caused by that overwork is related to sin even though it is physical in nature.
In Fact, even your example suggests that sin of one person can result in disease in another.

You then post:

I would imagine the above people would say the Holocaust is a sin.

The logical conclusion that the holocaust is a sin would be that the holocaust causes physical disorders, in this case strokes (since that's the topic here.)


But, of course, you will assert that the causal nature between the two (holocaust and stroke) is tenuous. i agree.
So let's look at another issue:
Leading risk factor for strokes is old age.
are you going to tell me that being old is a sin?
Is old age a sin?

Or, how about:
DOC, The leading cause of vaginal prolapse(the vagina inverting out of the body) is multiple child births.

Vaginal prolapse is a physical disease.
You suggest that Sin Causes Disease.
Vaginal prolapse is most commonly caused by multiple child births.
Does this mean that "Being fruitful and multiplying" is a sin?

[Akhenaten]

Then people in here should stop saying the evidence shows the rates in Europe are lower.





They should start lying? How will that help?

[Akhenaten]

I maintain your statement makes no sense.





It appears that your subjective judgement has gone awry. It makes perfect sense to me.