What Exercise Confusion on 9-11?

[DeathDart]

Not a Conspiracy, just the facts.

http://news.yahoo.com/newly-released-tapes-reveal-full-9-11-air-142027846.html

"Did you just say somethin' hit the World Trade Center?" an incredulous military official asked shortly after the beginning of America's terrorism nightmare on September 11, 2001.

Minutes later, with air traffic authorities warning that another commercial jet was off course and just six miles (10 kilometers) from the White House, Washington ground control sounded in denial, saying it was "probably just a rumor."
.........

At Boston Center control, a worker says: "We have, ah, a problem here, we have a hijacked aircraft headed towards New, New York and we need you guys to, we need someone to scramble some F-16s or something up there to help us out."

The answer, revealing the astonishment at what was happening, is: "Is, is this real world or exercise?"

Even at 8:43, a full 19 minutes after suspected American Airlines Flight 11 hijacker Mohamed Atta broadcast to air traffic control that "We have some planes," and nine minutes after Boston Center notifies controllers of the flight's hijacking, Major James Fox, leader of the Northeast Air Defense Sector who is patched in to the breaking developments, expresses disbelief.

"I've never seen so much real-world stuff happen during an exercise," Fox said, according to the transcript.

[A Laughing Baby]

The confusion and discontinuity in the FAA and military chain of command on 9/11 is one of the most discussed aspects of the day and one of the major drivers of the tragedy. I don't really get what you're getting at other than "I read an article."

[DeathDart]

The confusion and discontinuity in the FAA and military chain of command on 9/11 is one of the most discussed aspects of the day and one of the major drivers of the tragedy. I don't really get what you're getting at other than "I read an article."

All that information was massaged, the edges were taken off, this is much more Black and White.

Too many times people (in the conspiracy forum) would drown out any thought that the exercises on 9-11 didn't affect our military responses to 9-11.

I hope this is the first of many revelations, over the next few weeks.

[A Laughing Baby]

All that information was massaged, the edges were taken off, this is much more Black and White.

Too many times people (in the conspiracy forum) would drown out any thought that the exercises on 9-11 didn't affect our military responses to 9-11.

I hope this is the first of many revelations, over the next few weeks.

Did you actually read the 9/11 Commission Report? It was very clear and stark in the picture it painted of how poor and confused the response (or lack thereof) was.

[MG1962]

Yes because as Nena once put it - Everyone's a super hero, everyones a captain Kirk.

They where just ordinary people trying to deal with an extraodinary situation

We can all point and laugh and go "Boy did they screw that up" But I will bet London to a brick no one on this forum or pretty much anywhere else would have done better.

[A Laughing Baby]

Yes because as Nena once put it - Everyone's a super hero, everyones a captain Kirk.

They where just ordinary people trying to deal with an extraodinary situation

We can all point and laugh and go "Boy did they screw that up" But I will bet London to a brick no one on this forum or pretty much anywhere else would have done better.

I didn't say otherwise. It's just as natural, however, for a country that just underwent a manmade disaster to go "Gee, how can we avoid that in the future, and what happened to make it possible this time?"

[MG1962]

Sorry A laughing Baby, my comment wasn't aimed at you, but rather those who see the confusion as some grand conspiracy rather than people being overwhelmed by a situation.

The very fact you point out (What can we learn from this) proves no conspiracy was involved. Systems, protocols, even mission statements changed as a consequence of 9/11

[A Laughing Baby]

Sorry A laughing Baby, my comment wasn't aimed at you, but rather those who see the confusion as some grand conspiracy rather than people being overwhelmed by a situation.

The very fact you point out (What can we learn from this) proves no conspiracy was involved. Systems, protocols, even mission statements changed as a consequence of 9/11

My fault! :)

[Puppycow]

Not a Conspiracy, just the facts.

What does this have to do with politics?

[trvlr2]

What does this have to do with politics?

Well, there was this political story that the military was hot on the highjacker's heels...story persisted for about a year. Guess which head-of-state promulgated the story?

[Brainster]

Fascinating to listen to all of the audio at once; I have heard bits and pieces of it in the past. Of course, if the OP had bothered to read even the opening pages of the Rutgers Report, he'd know that the most warning the military had of any of the hijackings was 9 minutes, and that was for AA11, the first one. So the question of whether military exercises caused any confusion is a moot one.

Mods, this post belongs in 9-11 Conspiracy theories.

[Brainster]

9-11 Commission staffer Miles Kara checks in (http://www.oredigger61.org/?p=4685):

This article pulls together primary source information concerning Exercise Vigilant Guardian on the morning of September 11, 2001. Some have argued, based on conversational fragments from the audio files of the Northeast Air Defense Sector (NEADS), that the exercise hindered the nation’s air defense response that morning. Others have inferred, based on listening to those audio files, that the exercise caused procedural problems on the NEADS operations floor. In context, both the argument and the inference are in error.

Read it all. Kara's knowledge and understanding of 9-11 dwarfs my own.

[sarge]

I've got some experience directing military responses to emerging situations, both in training and in combat.

Doing it "for real" is almost invariably easier than in training, and I can imagine that making an immediate transition from a training scenario to a "real" scenario would be more difficult still.

[Sabrina]

And in fact, the exercise in a way offered a benefit to the response; all the personnel who were needed were already on hand, rather than being in locations where it might be difficult for them to report in.

I think, given the circumstances of the day, we can forgive the military for being incredulous at first as to whether it was actually happening; not only were they in an "exercise" mindset, the notion at the time that such a severe attack could happen on US soil was that it was close to impossible. An erroneous assumption, to be sure, and one that we hopefully will not be making again, but that was the mindset of the time. It should be noted that, once it was confirmed that it was not an exercise for them, the response was overwhelmingly fast and comprehensive. Contrary to what the OP seems to believe, the military is not infallible; some confusion was to be expected given the circumstances.

[little grey rabbit]

I like the way the Langley fighters keep heading east until getting the all clear the Pentagon has been hit and they can turn north.

http://www.historycommons.org/events-images/313_langley_route2050081722-9074.jpg

Removed hotlinked image as per Rule 5.

I believe that the "C-130" from Washington airbase and the Langley fighters took off at the same time. At any rate they were certainly being controlled from the one ops center. I think even if they had flown straight north the fighters would not have got there in time, but perhaps they were concerned that the "C-130" might be upset by the Coriolis effect.

[Sabrina]

I like the way the Langley fighters keep heading east until getting the all clear the Pentagon has been hit and they can turn north.

http://www.historycommons.org/events-images/313_langley_route2050081722-9074.jpg

I believe that the "C-130" from Washington airbase and the Langley fighters took off at the same time. At any rate they were certainly being controlled from the one ops center. I think even if they had flown straight north the fighters would not have got there in time, but perhaps they were concerned that the "C-130" might be upset by the Coriolis effect.

You know absolutely NOTHING about how the Air Force works, do you.

[little grey rabbit]

You know absolutely NOTHING about how the Air Force works, do you.

Me? Personally? Of course not. What on earth has that got to do with it?

[Sabrina]

Me? Personally? Of course not. What on earth has that got to do with it?

The Air Force is REQUIRED to fly over the ocean whenever possible in the event of a flight being ordered in the manner it was on 9/11 to avoid civilian air traffic as much as possible. It allows them to increase their speed because they have less chance of hitting other planes. Learn basic procedures before you start accusing the pilots of being so unworthy of the oaths they swore.

[Huttosaurus]

Of course, if the OP had bothered to read even the opening pages of the Rutgers Report, he'd know that the most warning the military had of any of the hijackings was 9 minutes, and that was for AA11, the first one. So the question of whether military exercises caused any confusion is a moot one.


I was trying to debate this with a guy on another forum over a couple of threads. Amongst a bunch of other truther standards he finds all the various exercises too convenient, convenient both in confusion, and tying up "hundreds" of tactical fighter aircraft in areas away from New York and Washington. Pointing out that confusion aside, unless any of those aircraft were armed and tasked for Air Defence it didn't matter where they were cut no ice at all :)

[little grey rabbit]

The Air Force is REQUIRED to fly over the ocean whenever possible in the event of a flight being ordered in the manner it was on 9/11 to avoid civilian air traffic as much as possible. It allows them to increase their speed because they have less chance of hitting other planes.

Golly, I had no idea your pilots were so erratic.

Perhaps they should go to the same flight school those hijackers attended?

[Sabrina]

Do you have any idea of the top speed of a fighter jet, LGR?

Let me assure you; it's much faster than the speed of a civilian plane. At those speeds, it is difficult to correct for mistakes as swiftly as you are intimating should be done.

And lest we all forget, as I recall those planes were ordered into the air in response to the flights heading for New York, which by the time the planes got in the air had already hit the towers. Notice the sharp turn in the graphic you posted; an indication that the orders were changed mid-flight to call the pilots to fly a CAP over DC, perhaps.

I'm not in the Air Force (Army O-3 instead) so I don't know all the procedures, but I do know it's SOP to fly over the ocean within the ADIZ whenever possible so as to allow for greater speed on the part of the fighter jets.

[little grey rabbit]

I do not know how fast a fighter jet can fly, but I do know where Washington DC is.

If you can't fly in an area where civilian airliners fly, then you can't fly to Washington DC in any case.

Anyway I am just telling you what happened. The "C-130" and Langley fighters were controlled from the same ops center and didn't turn north until they received word the strike was successful. A needless precaution as I pointed out above.

[Walter Ego]

I hope this is the first of many revelations, over the next few weeks.

And on November 22 the surviving perps who conspired to assassinate JKF will finally confess. :rolleyes:

[Sabrina]

I do not know how fast a fighter jet can fly, but I do know where Washington DC is.

If you can't fly in an area where civilian airliners fly, then you can't fly to Washington DC in any case.

Anyway I am just telling you what happened. The "C-130" and Langley fighters were controlled from the same ops center and didn't turn north until they received word the strike was successful. A needless precaution as I pointed out above.

It's pointless to even discuss this with you unless and until you acquaint yourself with Air Force SOP in regards to these kinds of flights. Until then, you're basically blowing smoke out of your ass.

[Craig4]

I do not know how fast a fighter jet can fly, but I do know where Washington DC is.

If you can't fly in an area where civilian airliners fly, then you can't fly to Washington DC in any case.

Anyway I am just telling you what happened. The "C-130" and Langley fighters were controlled from the same ops center and didn't turn north until they received word the strike was successful. A needless precaution as I pointed out above.

Your beliefs are by your own admission ill informed so they don't really count for anything. You've made it clear you don't know much about airplanes and navigation so you can have your beliefs; they just don't matter.

[Craig4]

Me? Personally? Of course not. What on earth has that got to do with it?
Obviously since you're opining on what the Air Force did and didn't do a responsible person would attempt to acquaint themselves with those procedures. That would be a good first step toward being treated as something other than a chew toy.

[newton3376]

I think, given the circumstances of the day, we can forgive the military for being incredulous at first as to whether it was actually happening; not only were they in an "exercise" mindset, the notion at the time that such a severe attack could happen on US soil was that it was close to impossible.

This can not be stated enough....the attitude of many in the military, Intel agencies, and government was one of "that could never happen here".

The reasons for this are many....some of it is simply human nature (arrogance, denial, over confidence, underestimating the enemy etc) and some of it was more operational in nature....but the point is that the attitude existed.

You would think that post 9/11 such an attitude would be something rarely seen in the military, Intel world, or government....sadly this is not always the case.

It is very easy, even now, to fall into the "Arabs in caves" mentality and forget that the terrorists are often well supported, well trained, and well funded. Plus they often have assistance from individuals or groups within other governments.....so this attitude is something that must be remembered but not repeated.

We were caught with our pants down in 2001.....we must work hard to make sure it never EVER happens again.

[Sabrina]

This can not be stated enough....the attitude of many in the military, Intel agencies, and government was one of "that could never happen here".

The reasons for this are many....some of it is simply human nature (arrogance, denial, over confidence, underestimating the enemy etc) and some of it was more operational in nature....but the point is that the attitude existed.

You would think that post 9/11 such an attitude would be something rarely seen in the military, Intel world, or government....sadly this is not always the case.

It is very easy, even now, to fall into the "Arabs in caves" mentality and forget that the terrorists are often well supported, well trained, and well funded. Plus they often have assistance from individuals or groups within other governments.....so this attitude is something that must be remembered but not repeated.

We were caught with our pants down in 2001.....we must work hard to make sure it never EVER happens again.

I call it LIHOIA (Let It Happen Out of Ignorance and Arrogance; someone else on the board coined the term though, not me). In a way, we did let 9/11 happen; it certainly wasn't on purpose, but it was our own ignorance and arrogance that led to it.

One of my duties in my unit is to train the soldiers on the Army's TARP, or Threat Awareness and Reporting Program. One of the many things I stress in that training is that despite our weapon and training superiority, we were overcome by the simplest of plans. Not only that, I also stress that terrorism has many forms of support, some of which, as newton said, include actual support from various governments. I stress situational awareness, and being careful what you post online. I told my soldiers I read everything I post online at least twice before I hit "submit", because I want to be damn sure I'm not putting sensitive information on the 'net. And lastly, I warn them to not fall into the trap of assuming it can't happen again; it absolutely can, and it's up to everyone to keep their eyes and ears peeled for suspicious behaviors.

I can hope that the government won't fall into the trap of becoming complacent again, but I'm not holding out much hope, to be honest.

[newton3376]

I call it LIHOIA (Let It Happen Out of Ignorance and Arrogance; someone else on the board coined the term though, not me). In a way, we did let 9/11 happen; it certainly wasn't on purpose, but it was our own ignorance and arrogance that led to it.

I like that..."LIHOIA"....I'm going to use that one.

One of my duties in my unit is to train the soldiers on the Army's TARP, or Threat Awareness and Reporting Program. One of the many things I stress in that training is that despite our weapon and training superiority, we were overcome by the simplest of plans. Not only that, I also stress that terrorism has many forms of support, some of which, as newton said, include actual support from various governments. I stress situational awareness, and being careful what you post online. I told my soldiers I read everything I post online at least twice before I hit "submit", because I want to be damn sure I'm not putting sensitive information on the 'net. And lastly, I warn them to not fall into the trap of assuming it can't happen again; it absolutely can, and it's up to everyone to keep their eyes and ears peeled for suspicious behaviors.

Excellent advice for your soldiers.....and the rest of us really.

I can hope that the government won't fall into the trap of becoming complacent again, but I'm not holding out much hope, to be honest.

That's what we need to fight.....and is why 9/11 can never be forgotten.

[I Ratant]

I like the way the Langley fighters keep heading east until getting the all clear the Pentagon has been hit and they can turn north.

...
.
You are not a nice person.

[I Ratant]

Do you have any idea of the ... anything concerned with 9/11. LGR?


.
The sad sack is another invincibly ignorant sad sack.

[Craig4]

I like the way the Langley fighters keep heading east until getting the all clear the Pentagon has been hit and they can turn north.
snip

When did this transmission take place? Where is the transcript? Do you have a recording? Who made it? Who else heard it? Where is your evidence such a transmission was made? Is it just your belief it happened? We've already established your beliefs are of no importance. A responsible person would qualify such a statement with "I believe".

[Captain_Swoop]

Procedure was to scramble to a point over the Ocean as that is where an attack was expected to appear.

RAF Tornado 'Scrambles' from Leeming up the road from me head out towards the North Sea as that is where an intruder is expected to appear. Fighters put up in the north of Scotland also head out to sea as that is where the Russian intrusions come from.

What was unexpected on 9/11 is the threat was internal and there was no procedure to meet it.

[AndrewBurley]

And on November 22 the surviving perps who conspired to assassinate JKF will finally confess. :rolleyes:

Didn't E. Howard Hunt already confess to his part in it?

[tsig]

I do not know how fast a fighter jet can fly, but I do know where Washington DC is.

If you can't fly in an area where civilian airliners fly, then you can't fly to Washington DC in any case.

Anyway I am just telling you what happened. The "C-130" and Langley fighters were controlled from the same ops center and didn't turn north until they received word the strike was successful. A needless precaution as I pointed out above.

You're telling us what happened yet you don't know the basic facts.

[beachnut]

Golly, I had no idea your pilots were so erratic.

Perhaps they should go to the same flight school those hijackers attended?

You have no point, you never will on 911 issues. This issue was beat to death years ago. Your ignorace on NORAD, flying, ATC, FAA, RADAR, and more will keep you in the moronic fantasy world of 911 truth for years to come. Wallow in the ignorace, and post nonsnese, you are the best.

The C-130 was not controlled by any ops center, they were flying back to their home-base; you have no clue and it shows. The C-130 was under ATC control, why can't you get anything right?

The fighters have a "warning area" owned by the military where they can go and be away from commercial traffic they might fly through. It is a way to get them airborne on their way to intercept bombers coming in from overseas, over the sea!

Please explain the procedures to lock up a 757 out of all the air traffic flying on 911. Go ahead show how much research you have done.

[Walter Ego]

Didn't E. Howard Hunt already confess to his part in it?

Yes, in an non-taped deathbed confession to his crack addicted son who sat on the revelation for years until he spilled the beans in a Rolling Stone magazine interview.

Do the truthers have this kind of rock solid proof for their conspiracy theories? ;)

[little grey rabbit]

Procedure was to scramble to a point over the Ocean as that is where an attack was expected to appear.

RAF Tornado 'Scrambles' from Leeming up the road from me head out towards the North Sea as that is where an intruder is expected to appear. Fighters put up in the north of Scotland also head out to sea as that is where the Russian intrusions come from.

What was unexpected on 9/11 is the threat was internal and there was no procedure to meet it.

Its an interesting theory, but it seems wrong. If there was a SOP to fly directly eastwards to meet the Russian airforce when a hijack alert is issued, then these chaps hadn't heard of it.

Nasypany
[indistinct] If need be. I don’t care how many windows you break.
Unknown
Langley had them [indistinct] in three-eighty-six.
Nasypany
Why’d they go up there?
Unknown
Because Giant Killer sent them out there.
Nasypany
God Damnit!
Nasypany
OK, Pat? Just push ‘em back.

Giant Killer, huh?

KRYTEN: A detective, huh? What's my name?
LISTER: Jake. Jake Bullet.
JAKE: Jake Bullet, Cybernautic Detective. I like that! That sounds like
the kind of hard-living flat foot who gets the job done by cutting
corners and bucking authority. And if those pen-pushers up at City
Hall don't like it, well, they can park their over-payed, fat ass's on
_this_ mid-digit (Extending his mid-digit) and swivel -- swivel till
they squeal like pigs on a honeymoon.
RIMMER: On the other hand, "Mr. Bullet," perhaps the Cybernautics
division is in charge of traffic control. You just happen to have a
rather silly macho name.

[Craig4]

Its an interesting theory, but it seems wrong. snip

No, it just seems wrong to you. By your own admission you don't know enough about this for your opinion to matter. We may now proceed safe in the knowledge there is no credible objection to the facts presented.

[BCR]

My suggestion is to stop 'reading articles' and listen to the ATC and NEADS audios (around for years now) yourself. The exercises caused minimal confusion. Quite the contrary, due to the exercises NEADS was operating with optimal staffing and the fact that they had just dealt with a similar scenario involving NYC days earlier, the exercises actually helped. The call came into NEADS at 8:39 from Joe Cooper (we have the audio from both the FAA and NEADS side of the call). Plot the position of AAL11 for yourself (41 15 N, 073 46 W) and you'll see it was almost to NYC. The scramble order went out at 8:46 to OTIS, but unfortunately that was the same time the WTC was being hit. They did not know about the second plane until it actually hit. So sorry, I've heard no 'confusion' in regards to the exercises beyond one very short question to clarify the nature of the incoming call.

[fess]

I do not know how fast a fighter jet can fly, but I do know where Washington DC is.

If you can't fly in an area where civilian airliners fly, then you can't fly to Washington DC in any case.

Anyway I am just telling you what happened. The "C-130" and Langley fighters were controlled from the same ops center and didn't turn north until they received word the strike was successful. A needless precaution as I pointed out above.

I always thought you were a jerk, but I don’t think that anymore. I know it!
You have no idea what you are talking about, and certainly don’t display any desire to learn.
I would attempt to explain the scramble protocols used by the USAF prior to 9/11, but I doubt that you would pay attention long enough to understand.
By the way, the C-130 was on a routine flight returning to its home airfield, and had no knowledge that Langley had even scrambled the F-16’s.

[I Ratant]

I'm watching MSNBC re-broadcasting that day as they saw it.
Confusion was rampant.
And totally to be expected.
The C-130 for example was a "large jet flying around the Pentagon" as seen and reported -at the time it occurred-.
.
They are talking about the collapse of the first tower...
"When a building of that size collapses, it does not fall in its own footprint." And these are just newsmen talking!
At the instant of the event.
They're thinking of the triage units at the base of the towers being eliminated....

[Cheap Shot]

Its an interesting theory, but it seems wrong. If there was a SOP to fly directly eastwards to meet the Russian airforce when a hijack alert is issued, then these chaps hadn't heard of it. It is called an LOA letter of agreement and Giant Killer has a bunch of them. Any scramble that goes into thier airspace requires an LOA. They sign it, they no about it. Every scramble base on 9/11 had an LOA with everyone who owned the airspace that they might fly on in a scramble.

As far as the Real World or Exercise, I guarantee everyone at NEADS who needed to know knew within minutes that it was not an exercise. When Foxy said that this was the most Real World stuff in exercise he was joking. The Battle Staff at NEADS knew by 8:39 or 8:40 that this was not part of the exercise.