Mormons on my Way Home

[Bill Thompson]

I had a good nap on the bus ride after work and woke refreshed when I stepped off the bus.

I was most of the way home when two young men in authentic attire turned the corner on their way towards me. I told myself that I was not going to start any discussion, maybe say hello. But when they noticed I was open to seeing them and perhaps engaging in some dialog they started right into me like two door-to-door salesmen.

I immediately took charge of the conversation, "let me ask you something." That stopped them dead in their tracks and they looked at me as if they were prepared for anything I would ask. "If the Book of Mormon was fake, how would that look like?"

They were stunned and silent. No one had ever taken that angle with them before. It is something unique. It is something that could only come from Bill Thompson and they had never had spoken to Bill Thompson before. Their expressions changed a little. This was not part of their play book. I felt like I might be making an impact so I pressed on. "Suppose Mormonism was not real. Suppose the Book of Mormon was exactly what some people say it is. How would that look any different than how it is today?"

They seemed to be unable to grasp this concept. So I went on. "Imagine, a different reality, if you will, where the Book of Mormon is not real and Mormonism is not real, what would that reality be like and how would it be different than the reality we have today?"

The two young men seemed to have very different personalities. One was tall and thin and seemed more boyish than the other one who was shorter and built like a tank with a short military style haircut. The shorter one had brown piercing eyes that never wavered during our conversation. The taller, more innocent looking of the two said, "well, then everything we do and everything we are all about is a lie."

Then I started to unload like a bottle under pressure with its cork popped. I spoke as fast as I could because I knew I had little time and I needed to get as much in as I could within the small amount of time I had. I started with something obvious and simple. "If Smith had just copied Isaiah 2 from the bible when he wrote 2 Nephi, rather than it coming directly from God, there would be some minor mistakes and flaws, don't you think, I mean, if the Book of Mormon was fake"

She short marine-looking one said, "Well, there are mistakes in the Bible and the Book of Mormon corrects them."

I said, "but that is not so. If you look at the Isaiah 2 and 2 Nephi 12 side by side you can see a passage from the Bible that makes sense but Smith misread it into something that does not make any sense at all when you change one word."

(By the way, a Methodist minister friend of mine once told me that Smith read the Bible from behind a curtain when this part of the Book of Mormon was being transcribed)

If I had more time I would have also explained how silly it is for Nephi to say, "you know I kind of like the book of Isaiah and so I am going to write it down here now" instead of just refer to it and (once again) if the book of Mormon was fake, wouldn't Smith have copied the bible just as filler?

I went on to another subject for them to think about since I did not have enough time. "If the book of Mormon was fake, wouldn't someone who understood literature more than anyone else have said it was a fake if he read it? Mark Twain did just that"

Here is something I came up with myself "If the book of Mormon was fake, would it have an English style of the King James Version of the Bible? King James wrote the bible the way he did because he was in competition to do so to win favor among other translations of the bible coming into England. People wanted to do what Martin Luther had done in Germany and have a version of the Bible written in their native tongue. So King James intentionally used a style of English that was not written or spoken at that time to give his version a sense of authenticity and age. But the Book of Mormon had no competition. There was no other book of Mormon. If the book of Mormon was fake, wouldn't smith have resorted to making it sound biblical as a ruse or trick? If the Book of Mormon was real, there would be no reason to not use modern English."

I had so much to say and I was running out of time. I was late for dinner as it was and I wanted to get some more work done tonight. "If the book of Mormon was fake, wouldn't one mostly see young men born and raised in the Mormon Church being sent out as Missionaries?"

I decide to get into the DNA argument. "If the book of Mormon was fake, wouldn't a Mormon at BYU find out that the DNA of the Native Americans would not match the DNA of the people from the Mid-East. And if the Book of Mormon was fake wouldn't the LDS church try to find all sorts of terrible ways of discounting or discrediting the Mormon who found this out? I have had online debates about this. First the Mormon will say that the fact that the Native Americans were from the Mid-East is not directly in the Book of Mormon. Then I will say that it is in the introduction of the Book of Mormon, written by Smith as what the Book of Mormon is all about. And so if it is not true, it makes Smith a false prophet. Then they will say that maybe the people in the Book of Mormon were only a small area in the New World which does not exist anymore. Then I will tell them that this is not what the Book of Mormon says and that it says that the land was unoccupied and the people from Israel populated all of the Americas. Then to go to the idea that some DNA from the Mid-East is actually in the Native Americans. Then I tell them that that does not make any difference because of human migration patterns, everyone in Europe and Asia have DNA from the Mid-East. The fact still remains that the Native Americans are more closely related to the Mongolians than the Hebrews. Then the person I am debating will go back to repeating that the book of Mormon does not specify exactly where the people came from.

I went on, "It is as if the person I am talking to has blinders on and they can only see the little piece of the discussion we are having at that one moment and they forget about the ground we already covered."

The shorter of the Mormons had a response. "Well, you know, the Spanish mixed with the Native Americans"

I said, "They did. But not in North America and Not in Brazil".

The taller of the two was about to say something but I turned to talk to him pretending that I did not notice he was about to say something and I said, "What about the golden plates? If the Book of Mormon was not real, Smith would have used a trick to make the Golden Plates seem real. He would have said something like, 'you cannot see them’ and 'I have them but you are not yet worthy to view them. You have to pray and accept this religion as being real and then they will be shown to you'. I mean, Smith could have said anything. He could have said...."

I wanted to say, "If you pray hard enough you will see monkeys fly out of my arse hole." But i didn't. I knew that would cause the discussion to end prematurely. So instead I said, "Smith could have said, if you pray hard enough, accept this religion as being real, you will see monkeys falling from the sky."

We talked a little about the Kinderhook plates and that if Smith was the real deal he would have been able to tell they were fakes.

We talked about the fact Smith should have just handed the book over to scientists or others. They said that story about a small piece had been handed to an official once. I knew that story and I could have kept on discussing this with them. But it was getting too late and dinner was prepared for me and I wanted to see my kid.

They parted with "you asked, 'what if it is fake' so I ask you what if it is real".

I could not let that go. "Well, if Mormonism was real, it would mean Islam was fake. The logical studies used to discount Islam as not being real could be applied back to Mormonism to prove it was fake."

And I parted with a comment that God would not play such a trick on people.

Somewhere during the conversation I told them that I knew I was not going to make any impact on them but maybe, ten years from now, they might remember me.

I wish I could spend hours talking to them. I wonder how long it would take to convince them that they are wasting their short lives on Earth supporting a cult and a lie. I wonder if that is even possible. It is probably not possible. I remember hearing about support groups in Utah for exMormons that would receive lost souls who would say that they could not leave the LDS Church because it would mean that they would loose their families.

I wish I was wealthier. I wish I could afford to tell people that they did not have to go home to their evil cults. They could stay here on my farm and work for me where we can grow wisdom, knowledge, rationality and understanding.

[fishbob]

I recommend taking a different route home.

[Bill Thompson]

I recommend taking a different route home.

They are everywhere. Like extras in a zombie movie with starched white cotton dress shirts.

[Bill Thompson]

That is the trick, by the way, ask them "what would it be like if your religion was fake and your holy book was made up". It stops Mormons. It also stops Muslims.

[Bill Thompson]

Is it illegal to video record people and put it on youtube? I could have these lads over for lunch, I figure and debate them. What if I told them on the front end? What if I wore a video camera. Hey, that sounds doable.

[Professor Yaffle]

They were only going to ask you the time...

[Craig B]

They [Mormons] are everywhere. Like extras in a zombie movie with starched white cotton dress shirts.

Sometimes I worry about you, Bill. Again, I recommend camomile tea and a quiet rest.

A person I once knew reported to one of my friends and me that he was being continually followed by Jews carrying walkie-talkies. This was before the advent of mobile phones. It was hard, but we succeeded in convincing him of the implausibility of this notion through a series of long friendly chats.

After that he became a born again Evangelical Christian, and told us that evolution was a ploy of Satan, and we were all going to Hell. But the walkie-talkie Jews finally disappeared, and at least he never became a Mormon, so we can be thankful for that. Anyway I can't imagine him in a starched white cotton dress shirt.

[Bill Thompson]

lol

That is funny.

What geography are you talking about? I was shocked to learn that there was a huge Mormon following the UK and Canada. Can't these countries find their own magical books of gold?

Penn and Teller and John Edward can tell you how do do the lost craft of "gold digging"

[bluesjnr]

Bluesjnr never engages people who talk about themselves in the third party.

[Craig B]

lol

That is funny. What geography are you talking about? I was shocked to learn that there was a huge Mormon following the UK and Canada. Can't these countries find their own magical books of gold?

Glasgow, Scotland. We don't need to wait for Americans to teach us in the West of Scotland, or our close relations in the North of Ireland, about religious insanity. We've got plenty of it already. Thankfully it is declining in political influence.

We had a serious jihadist terrorist car bomb attempt on the airport in Glasgow back in 2007. It was dealt with by the nearest passer by punching the would be bombers on the nose, after which one died of self-inflicted wounds, and the other was taken into custody. There was no hysteria in the city, and activity in the airport has been more or less undisturbed apart from a few new security precautions involving control of vehicles. Relations between Muslim and other residents of Glasgow were not visibly affected.

And during the Troubles in Ireland both Catholic and Protestant extremists had the good sense not to extend the war into Glasgow, where there are plenty of both.

These things give me hope.

But we are indeed visited by Mormons, and they do wear white cotton dress shirts.

[Multivac]

I was shocked to learn that there was a huge Mormon following the UK and Canada.

I've lived in the UK my entire life and have never, to my knowledge, met a mormon. Various flavours of christian, an occasional catholic, JWs, a few muslims and thousands of atheists but no mormons.

Is there a way to tell a mormon from the way they look, or dress?

[Professor Yaffle]

I've lived in the UK my entire life and have never, to my knowledge, met a mormon. Various flavours of christian, an occasional catholic, JWs, a few muslims and thousands of atheists but no mormons.

Is there a way to tell a mormon from the way they look, or dress?

About 200,000 in a population of over 60 million is hardly a huge following... For comparison - there are 1.5 million muslims in the UK.

[FireGarden]

I immediately took charge of the conversation, "let me ask you something." That stopped them dead in their tracks and they looked at me as if they were prepared for anything I would ask. "If the Book of Mormon was fake, how would that look like?"

They were stunned and silent. No one had ever taken that angle with them before. It is something unique.

I find that surprising due to the whole "Could you have written the Book of Mormon?" angle. I learnt about it in 2005:
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=37090


It is something that could only come from Bill Thompson and they had never had spoken to Bill Thompson before.

While not forgetting or meaning to diminish the surprise which I noted above... I will agree that there was something in what you wrote which is like a signature of Bill Thompson.

[RandFan]

That is the trick, by the way, ask them "what would it be like if your religion was fake and your holy book was made up". It stops Mormons. It also stops Muslims.Agreed. I've done the same with the Christianity and the Bible. Usually listing the silliness helps. Talking snakes and donkeys, water into wine, sorcery giants, unicorns, walking on water, etc. Also the brutality, genocide torture and killing of children and the lack of historical evidence goes a long way to stop them.

[RandFan]

I've lived in the UK my entire life and have never, to my knowledge, met a mormon. Various flavours of christian, an occasional catholic, JWs, a few muslims and thousands of atheists but no mormons.

Is there a way to tell a mormon from the way they look, or dress?Missionaries wear white shirts and ties. They travel in pairs and look like clones.

As for the rest, I can often spot Mormons but I was raised one and know the subtle cues.

[RandFan]

They seemed to be unable to grasp this concept. So I went on. "Imagine, a different reality, if you will, where the Book of Mormon is not real and Mormonism is not real, what would that reality be like and how would it be different than the reality we have today?"Another great one with theists in general. Most can't imagine a reality without god yet we atheists do it all the time. No big deal.

"well, then everything we do and everything we are all about is a lie."I remember when I realized Mormonism and religion in general was a lie. That's the first thing you've got to get through to believers, some person made up a silly story about a burning bush or a guy being swallowed by a whale or a man who actually was going to murder his son for god, those stories still blow me away. For the life of me, how is it that humans buy into such BS? It's kinda sad really. I guess people accept uncritically and without skepticism their own cherished mythology. It doesn't matter how plastic and obviously fake Joseph smith or Abraham is, that's your life. Your reason for being.

Then I started to unload like a bottle under pressure with its cork popped. I spoke as fast as I could because I knew I had little time and I needed to get as much in as I could within the small amount of time I had. I started with something obvious and simple. "If Smith had just copied Isaiah 2 from the bible when he wrote 2 Nephi, rather than it coming directly from God, there would be some minor mistakes and flaws, don't you think, I mean, if the Book of Mormon was fake"
Like the Bible. It's mythology.

I said, "but that is not so. If you look at the Isaiah 2 and 2 Nephi 12 side by side you can see a passage from the Bible that makes sense but Smith misread it into something that does not make any sense at all when you change one word."
You can do the very same with the Bible. much of it is plagerized from other books of the Bible and mistakes are carried over. See Bart Ehrman's Misquoting Jesus.

I wish I was wealthier. I wish I could afford to tell people that they did not have to go home to their evil cults. They could stay here on my farm and work for me where we can grow wisdom, knowledge, rationality and understanding.I know exactly what you mean. All that time wasted on made up stories of pregnant virgins and walking dead people. The manipulation and unelected power of Christian leaders. It's sad really.

[RandFan]

Is it illegal to video record people and put it on youtube? I could have these lads over for lunch, I figure and debate them. What if I told them on the front end? What if I wore a video camera. Hey, that sounds doable.Absolutely, hey, they exist now. JW's Catholics, protestants, Mormons. All the nutty apologetics, defending genocide, infanticide, magic, Elisha and the bears who kill the children, Lot offering his daughters to be raped, Abraham's willingness to kill his son, god ordering the slaughter of the Moabites, Amalekites, etc. tons of these debates are on youtube right now.

People ask me all the time how Mormons can believe such nonsense, this is where I have to credit James Randi. Randi tells us that it's easiest to fool ourselves. Once we latch onto a cherished belief like Scientology or Mormonism or Christianity, it really doesn't matter just how wacky the stories are. To Hindus Christianity is a bizarre joke. They are not invested in it. Mormons have an investment. Family, friends, a lifetime of study and dedication. Not to mention expectations of salvation. Plus, it's the greatest ego stroke. God the biggest, baddest, meanest mo fo in the universe is on your side.

Me, I'll take reality over holy ghost stories.

[Mister Agenda]

You have a gift for storytelling, Bill, and also seem to be a decent raconteur.

If you video record future conversations with Mormons, record them saying they agree to be recorded and you should be fine.

Since I have the impression you know more Muslims than Mormons, maybe you could arrange a similar conversation with one or two of your Muslim friends and post a link to it.

Speaking of Muslims, I was a bit confused where you responded: "Well, if Mormonism was real, it would mean Islam was fake. The logical studies used to discount Islam as not being real could be applied back to Mormonism to prove it was fake." It sounds like you're trying to say that if Mormonism were real, you would still be able to prove it was fake using the same methods used prove Islam was fake. Is that a fair paraphrase of your intended meaning?

[Spindrift]

Missionaries wear white shirts and ties. They travel in pairs and look like clones.

As for the rest, I can often spot Mormons but I was raised one and know the subtle cues.

The underwear right?

[Madalch]

For some reason, I now have John Denver stuck in my head.

"Mormons, on my way home, are annoying....
Mormons, at my door, can make me mad.....
Mormons, underwater, sound more peaceful.....
Mormons, almost always, make me sad....."

[I Ratant]

I've lived in the UK my entire life and have never, to my knowledge, met a mormon. Various flavours of christian, an occasional catholic, JWs, a few muslims and thousands of atheists but no mormons.

Is there a way to tell a mormon from the way they look, or dress?
.
Earnest pairs if young men, wearing white shirts, pants, ties, on bicycles, careening around the area.

[I Ratant]

The underwear right?
.
The visits never get that intimate.

[Craig B]

.
The visits never get that intimate. Say you so? Read the Joyce McKinney case 1978, at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormon_sex_in_chains_case. Joyce came to England in pursuit of a Mormon missionary she fancied, chained him up and had all manner of bondage and oral sex sessions. Gave the expression "missionary position" a whole new meaning. The tabloids loved it!

The missionary suffered no permanent ill effects and is now a real estate agent in the USA. Rape of a man by a woman was in 1978 a crime unknown to English Law, so Ms McKinney went unpunished.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

.
Earnest pairs if young men, wearing white shirts, pants, ties, on bicycles, careening around the area.

That's only our larval form. Adult mormons are indistinguishable from adult homo sapiens.

[I Ratant]

I've seen earnest older men, white shirts, ties, and slacks in pairs at the Mall.
No contact with me, though.
There were a few at Lockheed I worked with.
Religion never came up.

[Bill Thompson]

You have a gift for storytelling, Bill, and also seem to be a decent raconteur.

If you video record future conversations with Mormons, record them saying they agree to be recorded and you should be fine.

Since I have the impression you know more Muslims than Mormons, maybe you could arrange a similar conversation with one or two of your Muslim friends and post a link to it.

Speaking of Muslims, I was a bit confused where you responded: "Well, if Mormonism was real, it would mean Islam was fake. The logical studies used to discount Islam as not being real could be applied back to Mormonism to prove it was fake." It sounds like you're trying to say that if Mormonism were real, you would still be able to prove it was fake using the same methods used prove Islam was fake. Is that a fair paraphrase of your intended meaning?

I might have left too much out of the transcript of the conversation. The idea is basically this. The two religions contradict each other and so that cannot both be real. If Islam is real, then there is one universal God and he created the universe and all human life for the purpose of praising Him and you have to do these rituals described in Islam to make Him happy. Also, according to Islam, Jesus was not the son of God but a prophet and (get this) Jesus tricked the Romans into killing Judas instead. Mohammed made up that bit in order to remove the idea that Jesus sacrificed himeslf for people. Now, Mormonism has a whole different narrative on Jesus Christ and the Universe. Joesph Smith wrote the Book of Mormon at a time when people had a different understanding of the cosmos. People in the old West of the USA knew by that time that the heavens were vast and distant and not a dome of spheres traveling around a earthcentric universe like during Mohammed's time. But this does not mean the Mormon view of the universe is correct. Back then, they had no concept of the Big Bang. It was thought that the universe was constant and the stars were suns that had may or may not have a life span. But the universe, as thought during Smith's time, was never really created. Ah, but the Earth, itself was created. So, according to Smith, God was just the creator of the Earth. Other planets, according to Mormonism, had other Gods and there is this whole bit about we are all God's children and if we are all good Mormons, we can grow up to be Gods, have our own planet, or own goddess wives, and have endless sex to make endless sprit babies to be put to the test on a planet.

Mormons and Muslims have radically different views of the univese and the meannig of life. They both cannot be corrrect.

A Mormon can look at Islam and say, "look, Islam is made up because it is obvious there are mistakes in it and Mohammed was just borrowing from other texts and understandings of that time and history to invent the Quran."

A Muslim can look at Mormonism and say "look, Mormonism is made up because it is obvious there are mistakes in it and Josesph Smith was just borrowing from other texts and understandings of that time and history to invent the The Book of Mormon."

Both are valid, equal and rational assessments of each other. Both are valuations that neigher would be willing to make about themselves because each side is blind to their own faults.

Then cancel each other out.

In a way, it is a kind of blessing that we have these to ideologies among us to clear each other off the table.

[FireGarden]

Or perhaps:
"The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also." - Mark Twain

[I Ratant]

Comparing LDS to Islam is useful as both have ah verifiable historical.. if I may.. Genesis.... :)
Then one can extrapolate the human sources of each back to the murky past, and winkle out the stuff that is all too human, and separate it from the supernatural crap added as filler.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Two young Mormon men came to my door just last week. They offered to do chores and of course wanted to tell me about God. I didn't have the heart to take advantage of them so I turned down the chores offer. But I did preach back a bit before they left.

I told them the god they worshiped was an atrocious baby killer and they should reread (because they claimed to have read the whole Bible) the story of the Amalekites (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/1sam/15.html#2).15:3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

[RandFan]

The underwear right?Yes but I can't always tell if they have a coat or sweater on. It's the mannerisms, colloquialisms, style of dress and hair.

[RandFan]

Then cancel each other out.

In a way, it is a kind of blessing that we have these to ideologies among us to clear each other off the table.Mormons can do the same with Christianity and Islam. They clear each other off the table. But that's not a very good argument.

It's better to point out how belief systems are irrational. Take Christianity. It claims that it's roots are Judaism and it claims that the god of the OT is the same god of the NT. The same yesterday, today and forever. Yet the god of the OT had a lot of deplorable traits. Jealousy, duplicity, murderous, tortured and killed children, demanded his followers to commit genocide, he even ordered the slaughter of entire groups of people.

Deuteronomy 20:17: But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee.

1 Samuel 15:3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

Very different from Jesus and the god of the NT. Sure doesn't seem the same.

[RandFan]

Two young Mormon men came to my door just last week. They offered to do chores and of course wanted to tell me about God. I didn't have the heart to take advantage of them so I turned down the chores offer. But I did preach back a bit before they left.

15:3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

I told them the god they worshiped was an atrocious baby killer and they should reread (because they claimed to have read the whole Bible) the story of the Amalekites (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/1sam/15.html#2).Exactly, anyone who believes in the god of the Bible worships a blood thirsty tyrant who not only kills children but tortures them. Imagine what it must have been like for the mothers and siblings who didn't die first watch as loved ones were destroyed.

I couldn't bear it. I would hide my eyes. God? Could he hide his eyes? How did he feel? Did he rejoice? Was he indifferent to the suffering? What?

[joobie]

Missionaries wear white shirts and ties. They travel in pairs and look like clones.

the usual dead giveaway for me is the nametag.

[carlitos]

"If the Book of Mormon was fake, how would that look like?"

They were stunned and silent.
I have to admit that I wouldn't have a quick response to such an incoherent question either.

Anyway, cool story, bro.

[Skeptic Ginger]

the usual dead giveaway for me is the nametag.Really? Not 2 men together at your doorstep wearing white shirts and ties?

[Skeptic Ginger]

Mormons can do the same with Christianity and Islam. They clear each other off the table. But that's not a very good argument.

It's better to point out how belief systems are irrational. Take Christianity. It claims that it's roots are Judaism and it claims that the god of the OT is the same god of the NT. The same yesterday, today and forever. Yet the god of the OT had a lot of deplorable traits. Jealousy, duplicity, murderous, tortured and killed children, demanded his followers to commit genocide, he even ordered the slaughter of entire groups of people.

Deuteronomy 20:17: But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee.

1 Samuel 15:3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

Very different from [the imagined] Jesus and the god of the NT. Sure doesn't seem the same.FTFY.

Cruelty in the NT (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/nt_list.html)

[Minarvia]

Wow, all I can say is that I could never think so fast and well on my feet like that, Bill Thompson!

We have some Mormons where I live, but they never go door to door or approach people; or at least not that I know of. They drop off pamphlets now and again, but never knock on doors or even approach people in stores or the parks.

I'd likely not be able to keep a straight face with any Mormon because I always think of the "South Park" episode about Mormons.

[I Ratant]

Really? Not 2 men together at your doorstep wearing white shirts and ties?
.
I pointed out to a couple these guys they had to go past the "No Peddlers" sign at the entrance to the community to get to my house.
"We're not peddlers!"
"Yes you are, you're peddling ********."
They haven't been back.

[jiggeryqua]

Is there a way to tell a mormon from the way they look, or dress?

I've got a knack for it - two men wearing conventional haircuts and white shirts, suit trousers and ties might be a couple of insurance salesmen or bank clerks or whatnot, but the mormons still manage to look like mormons somehow. Yes, the name badges can be a giveaway, but I've spotted them from behind on a number of occasions. I've never quite put my finger on the identifying characteristic/s, they just look...mormony.

Hmm...maybe there's a Challenge application in this, if enough mormons can be persuaded to co-operate.

[RandFan]

FTFY.

Cruelty in the NT (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/nt_list.html)You've been doing that a lot lately. ;)

[RandFan]

the usual dead giveaway for me is the nametag.I should have noted that.

When I was a missionary we had a song (sung to the tune of Ballad Of the Green Beret)

A Black Name tag upon my chest
We are the men, the church's best.
Some may boast and some may brag,
But only a few wear the Black name tag.

Twenty-four months without a date.
But we are tough, we can wait,
Our girls at home, they never brag...
Their brave men wear the Black name tag.

Back at home our girlfriends wait,
But not for long, she starts to date,
Her interest soon begins to lag,
She soon "Dear Johns" the Black name tag.

On our return we resume life,
Start our search to find a wife.
But finds are few and efforts lag,
But such is life for the Black name tag.

You find a fox, she has her man,
You find a chick, she has a plan.
You find the one, but what a drag,
She wants to wear The Black name tag.

[benbradley]

I ...
Here is something I came up with myself "If the book of Mormon was fake, would it have an English style of the King James Version of the Bible?
I'm reminded of the time I paged through the Book of Mormon. There's a book or chapter or two in which virtually EVERY verse started with "And it came to pass..." I found it rather funny. I researched the KJV, and ISTR there's only maybe one or two places where it actually says those words, but apparently it became a catch-phrase for Smith.
...
I wish I was wealthier. I wish I could afford to tell people that they did not have to go home to their evil cults. They could stay here on my farm and work for me where we can grow wisdom, knowledge, rationality and understanding.
You can write (obviously, by the length of your posts!). You can write on a website/blog - a domain and hosting are cheap, or you can even start a blog on wordpress.com or blogspot.com for free. If you're organized enough, you can write a book about Mormonism and get it published. Prometheus Books is likely your best bet for a potential publisher.

Or maybe you could reference websites that already exist which debunk Mormonism. I do that. I'm an ex-AA member (I came to this forum largely to post in the "AA a religion" thread), and I print out and cut up little strips of paper with these websites clearly printed on them:
http://orange-papers.org
http://morerevealed.com
http://peele.net
and I put one of these slips in every "big book" or other AA or 12-step related book I find in bookstores, thrift stores, libraries and library sales, including everything on codependency (authors such as Janet Woititz, Melodie Beattie, John Bradshaw), and other books I know of that mention 12-step programs in a positive light (such as "Further Along The Road Less Travelled"). I've been doing this for years and have "salted" hundreds, perhaps thousands of 12-step related books this way.
...
Mormons and Muslims have radically different views of the univese and the meannig of life. They both cannot be corrrect.

A Mormon can look at Islam and say, "look, Islam is made up because it is obvious there are mistakes in it and Mohammed was just borrowing from other texts and understandings of that time and history to invent the Quran."

A Muslim can look at Mormonism and say "look, Mormonism is made up because it is obvious there are mistakes in it and Josesph Smith was just borrowing from other texts and understandings of that time and history to invent the The Book of Mormon."

Both are valid, equal and rational assessments of each other. Both are valuations that neigher would be willing to make about themselves because each side is blind to their own faults.

Then cancel each other out.

In a way, it is a kind of blessing that we have these to ideologies among us to clear each other off the table.
It's good that large, mainstream religions analyze one another this way (I have some JW tracts I've saved in my "general overtly-religious cult literature" folder, and am amazed at how viciously they attack Catholics, but when you're leaving anonymous tracts on people's cars or front doors, you can say just about anything).

But the smaller, newer and more "fringy" groups don't seem to notice other religions or groups. AA is pretty much unique in that it has probably the most positive public perception of any such group. Scientology, est/Landmark Forum and other such groups would, if they were to somehow notice one another as similar-and-competing groups, give up some of their (figurative) personal body parts to have the public relations that Alcoholics Anonymous has. AA convinces news reporters not to use a person's full name if it's mentioned that they're an AA member, or conversely, if the full name is mentioned, they're convinced NOT to mention AA membership. This of course isn't universal, but it's been going on for decades, and for the most part this allows AA to wash itself clean of any and all dirty tricks its members do, whether they do these tings "on their own" or as part of their AA membership.

Okay, didn't mean to rant (too much) or usurp your thread. But (yes there's more, but it's not about AA) there's also multilevel marketing groups, where the main belief isn't that there's a God and group members have a special relationship with Him (Amway's founder is Christian, and literature talks about Christianity, but this is very much secondary to Amway's main thrust a MLM/borderline Ponzi scheme, which tells you you can get rich by "working for yourself," becoming a distributor by recruiting others under you to sell products for you. But that's rarely how anyone actually makes money in these things. If anyone's making money, it's in the selling of overpriced "how to sell and get rich" training literature to newer recruits. Since MLM is such a formulaic thing that's virtually identical between Amway, Herbalife, Mary Kay, Avon or whatever, different MLM's do apparently steal various techniques from one another. There's also a lot of people going to different 12-step groups and thus slogans and pro-group arguments and stories for one group often show up in other groups, but there's a lot less cross-polination between dissimilar groups.

But in spite of their general insulation from one another, even high-demand groups that look very different have an amazing amount of stuff in common (I've read a lot of books on cults - many of the characteristics and techniques listed in a book even apply to groups the book doesn't mention - it doesn't matter much whether it's a religious group or a business cult such as an MLM). Take for example this page "How to talk to a Scientologist" from a former Scientology member:
http://www.xenu.net/archive/infopack/16.htm
You can easily replace Scientologist with alcoholic (AA members of course call themselves alcoholics, and the label "alcoholic" becomes as much of their identity as other self-labels such as Mormon and Christian) and Scientology with Alcoholics Anonymous, and it works just as well (except for the part that says "Don't tell them it's not a religion" - for AA, this should of course read "Don't tell them it IS a religion" as AA members believe AA is NOT religious). I'm not nearly as familiar with Mormonism, but the Scientology page might apply as well to Mormonism.

Okay, I'm done with this post. :)

[Minoosh]

It sounds like Bill is the fanatical one but then he's not knocking on doors - or is he? Is he??

[Vorticity]

Really? Not 2 men together at your doorstep wearing white shirts and ties?

At my house this usually indicates two Log Cabin Republicans who have arrived looking for sex.

Every Thursday night like clockwork, those two.

[Skeptic Ginger]

You've been doing that a lot lately. ;)Don't worry, I really like the new you. :D

[Skeptic Ginger]

At my house this usually indicates two Log Cabin Republicans who have arrived looking for sex.

Every Thursday night like clockwork, those two.:D

[Skeptic Ginger]

I should have noted that.

When I was a missionary we had a song (sung to the tune of Ballad Of the Green Beret)

A Black Name tag upon my chest
We are the men, the church's best.
Some may boast and some may brag,
But only a few wear the Black name tag.

Twenty-four months without a date.
But we are tough, we can wait,
Our girls at home, they never brag...
Their brave men wear the Black name tag.

Back at home our girlfriends wait,
But not for long, she starts to date,
Her interest soon begins to lag,
She soon "Dear Johns" the Black name tag.

On our return we resume life,
Start our search to find a wife.
But finds are few and efforts lag,
But such is life for the Black name tag.

You find a fox, she has her man,
You find a chick, she has a plan.
You find the one, but what a drag,
She wants to wear The Black name tag.That's great! I like it.

[RandFan]

Don't worry, I really like the new you. :DCool. :)

[joobie]

Really? Not 2 men together at your doorstep wearing white shirts and ties?

number of times mormon missionaries have knocked at my door: zero

besides, if they were knocking at my door, how would i recognize them on the bus?

[Pup]

"If the Book of Mormon was fake, how would that look like?"

Since this is mainly about debating techniques, it's tempting to take the devil's advocate (god's advocate?)position.

I'm surprised they didn't say that if it were fake, people wouldn't feel a burning in the bosom (http://www.mormonwiki.org/Burning_in_the_bosom) when they read it and prayed to ask if it were true. Do they still use that phrase? Well, whatever the current non-double-entendre equivalent is.

Then they could safely retreat to the ground of the True Scottsman: What the followers of other religions feel isn't as real as the real burning in the bosom. But you didn't ask God with a truly open mind. Etc.

I believe that direction of debate would be acceptable, even recommended, for missionaries, yet would get them onto more defensible ground (from their point of view).

[RandFan]

Since this is mainly about debating techniques, it's tempting to take the devil's advocate (god's advocate?)position.

I'm surprised they didn't say that if it were fake, people wouldn't feel a burning in the bosom (http://www.mormonwiki.org/Burning_in_the_bosom) when they read it and prayed to ask if it were true. Do they still use that phrase? Well, whatever the current non-double-entendre equivalent is.

Then they could safely retreat to the ground of the True Scottsman: What the followers of other religions feel isn't as real as the real burning in the bosom. But you didn't ask God with a truly open mind. Etc.

I believe that direction of debate would be acceptable, even recommended, for missionaries, yet would get them onto more defensible ground (from their point of view).Good points but those could be problematic for a Christian. When I tell Christians that I had spiritual experiences as a Mormon they would tell me that since I wasn't a true Christian my experiences weren't the same.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

"If the Book of Mormon was fake, how would that look like?"

They were stunned and silent. I have to admit that I wouldn't have a quick response to such an incoherent question either.

Anyway, cool story, bro.

It would be 3 cm x 8 cm x 13 cm, be dark blue in color and have "The Book of Mormon" embossed on the cover.

[Kopji]

I might have left too much out of the transcript of the conversation. The idea is basically this. The two religions contradict each other and so that cannot both be real. If Islam is real, then there is one universal God and he created the universe and all human life for the purpose of praising Him and you have to do these rituals described in Islam to make Him happy. Also, according to Islam, Jesus was not the son of God but a prophet and (get this) Jesus tricked the Romans into killing Judas instead. Mohammed made up that bit in order to remove the idea that Jesus sacrificed himeslf for people. Now, Mormonism has a whole different narrative on Jesus Christ and the Universe. Joesph Smith wrote the Book of Mormon at a time when people had a different understanding of the cosmos. People in the old West of the USA knew by that time that the heavens were vast and distant and not a dome of spheres traveling around a earthcentric universe like during Mohammed's time. But this does not mean the Mormon view of the universe is correct. Back then, they had no concept of the Big Bang. It was thought that the universe was constant and the stars were suns that had may or may not have a life span. But the universe, as thought during Smith's time, was never really created. Ah, but the Earth, itself was created. So, according to Smith, God was just the creator of the Earth. Other planets, according to Mormonism, had other Gods and there is this whole bit about we are all God's children and if we are all good Mormons, we can grow up to be Gods, have our own planet, or own goddess wives, and have endless sex to make endless sprit babies to be put to the test on a planet.

Mormons and Muslims have radically different views of the univese and the meannig of life. They both cannot be corrrect.

A Mormon can look at Islam and say, "look, Islam is made up because it is obvious there are mistakes in it and Mohammed was just borrowing from other texts and understandings of that time and history to invent the Quran."

A Muslim can look at Mormonism and say "look, Mormonism is made up because it is obvious there are mistakes in it and Josesph Smith was just borrowing from other texts and understandings of that time and history to invent the The Book of Mormon."

Both are valid, equal and rational assessments of each other. Both are valuations that neigher would be willing to make about themselves because each side is blind to their own faults.

Then cancel each other out.

In a way, it is a kind of blessing that we have these to ideologies among us to clear each other off the table.

I disagree, they don't clear each other off at all. All you need is a third religion that is syncretic of the two earlier ones to renew the cycle. (Google Bahai Mormonism). This cycle is probably more common than we think.

Various sectarian differences don't seem to 'cancel out' popular beliefs either. LDS Mormons commonly tell people to 'read the book' and pray about it. Supposedly if it is 'true', it is all true. But I know many people who would say they've done just that concluded that the LDS were wrong, and joined other sects.

Nobody inside religion seems to think about religion very critically until they are outside religion.

I like the falsification idea being used, but it is not really a Bill Thompson invention.

'What it would be like if it were not true?' There are glaring little flaws in the BofM. It ends with the word 'adeiu'. There are different printed editions with major differences in text. I'm not sure that traditional Popperian method is the best tool to refute religious details, except for the basic question of how the universe would be any different with or without a deity.

I was going to say that maybe they were Seventh Day Adventists. :)

[Cainkane1]

I had a good nap on the bus ride after work and woke refreshed when I stepped off the bus.

I was most of the way home when two young men in authentic attire turned the corner on their way towards me. I told myself that I was not going to start any discussion, maybe say hello. But when they noticed I was open to seeing them and perhaps engaging in some dialog they started right into me like two door-to-door salesmen.

I immediately took charge of the conversation, "let me ask you something." That stopped them dead in their tracks and they looked at me as if they were prepared for anything I would ask. "If the Book of Mormon was fake, how would that look like?"

They were stunned and silent. No one had ever taken that angle with them before. It is something unique. It is something that could only come from Bill Thompson and they had never had spoken to Bill Thompson before. Their expressions changed a little. This was not part of their play book. I felt like I might be making an impact so I pressed on. "Suppose Mormonism was not real. Suppose the Book of Mormon was exactly what some people say it is. How would that look any different than how it is today?"

They seemed to be unable to grasp this concept. So I went on. "Imagine, a different reality, if you will, where the Book of Mormon is not real and Mormonism is not real, what would that reality be like and how would it be different than the reality we have today?"

The two young men seemed to have very different personalities. One was tall and thin and seemed more boyish than the other one who was shorter and built like a tank with a short military style haircut. The shorter one had brown piercing eyes that never wavered during our conversation. The taller, more innocent looking of the two said, "well, then everything we do and everything we are all about is a lie."

Then I started to unload like a bottle under pressure with its cork popped. I spoke as fast as I could because I knew I had little time and I needed to get as much in as I could within the small amount of time I had. I started with something obvious and simple. "If Smith had just copied Isaiah 2 from the bible when he wrote 2 Nephi, rather than it coming directly from God, there would be some minor mistakes and flaws, don't you think, I mean, if the Book of Mormon was fake"

She short marine-looking one said, "Well, there are mistakes in the Bible and the Book of Mormon corrects them."

I said, "but that is not so. If you look at the Isaiah 2 and 2 Nephi 12 side by side you can see a passage from the Bible that makes sense but Smith misread it into something that does not make any sense at all when you change one word."

(By the way, a Methodist minister friend of mine once told me that Smith read the Bible from behind a curtain when this part of the Book of Mormon was being transcribed)

If I had more time I would have also explained how silly it is for Nephi to say, "you know I kind of like the book of Isaiah and so I am going to write it down here now" instead of just refer to it and (once again) if the book of Mormon was fake, wouldn't Smith have copied the bible just as filler?

I went on to another subject for them to think about since I did not have enough time. "If the book of Mormon was fake, wouldn't someone who understood literature more than anyone else have said it was a fake if he read it? Mark Twain did just that"

Here is something I came up with myself "If the book of Mormon was fake, would it have an English style of the King James Version of the Bible? King James wrote the bible the way he did because he was in competition to do so to win favor among other translations of the bible coming into England. People wanted to do what Martin Luther had done in Germany and have a version of the Bible written in their native tongue. So King James intentionally used a style of English that was not written or spoken at that time to give his version a sense of authenticity and age. But the Book of Mormon had no competition. There was no other book of Mormon. If the book of Mormon was fake, wouldn't smith have resorted to making it sound biblical as a ruse or trick? If the Book of Mormon was real, there would be no reason to not use modern English."

I had so much to say and I was running out of time. I was late for dinner as it was and I wanted to get some more work done tonight. "If the book of Mormon was fake, wouldn't one mostly see young men born and raised in the Mormon Church being sent out as Missionaries?"

I decide to get into the DNA argument. "If the book of Mormon was fake, wouldn't a Mormon at BYU find out that the DNA of the Native Americans would not match the DNA of the people from the Mid-East. And if the Book of Mormon was fake wouldn't the LDS church try to find all sorts of terrible ways of discounting or discrediting the Mormon who found this out? I have had online debates about this. First the Mormon will say that the fact that the Native Americans were from the Mid-East is not directly in the Book of Mormon. Then I will say that it is in the introduction of the Book of Mormon, written by Smith as what the Book of Mormon is all about. And so if it is not true, it makes Smith a false prophet. Then they will say that maybe the people in the Book of Mormon were only a small area in the New World which does not exist anymore. Then I will tell them that this is not what the Book of Mormon says and that it says that the land was unoccupied and the people from Israel populated all of the Americas. Then to go to the idea that some DNA from the Mid-East is actually in the Native Americans. Then I tell them that that does not make any difference because of human migration patterns, everyone in Europe and Asia have DNA from the Mid-East. The fact still remains that the Native Americans are more closely related to the Mongolians than the Hebrews. Then the person I am debating will go back to repeating that the book of Mormon does not specify exactly where the people came from.

I went on, "It is as if the person I am talking to has blinders on and they can only see the little piece of the discussion we are having at that one moment and they forget about the ground we already covered."

The shorter of the Mormons had a response. "Well, you know, the Spanish mixed with the Native Americans"

I said, "They did. But not in North America and Not in Brazil".

The taller of the two was about to say something but I turned to talk to him pretending that I did not notice he was about to say something and I said, "What about the golden plates? If the Book of Mormon was not real, Smith would have used a trick to make the Golden Plates seem real. He would have said something like, 'you cannot see them’ and 'I have them but you are not yet worthy to view them. You have to pray and accept this religion as being real and then they will be shown to you'. I mean, Smith could have said anything. He could have said...."

I wanted to say, "If you pray hard enough you will see monkeys fly out of my arse hole." But i didn't. I knew that would cause the discussion to end prematurely. So instead I said, "Smith could have said, if you pray hard enough, accept this religion as being real, you will see monkeys falling from the sky."

We talked a little about the Kinderhook plates and that if Smith was the real deal he would have been able to tell they were fakes.

We talked about the fact Smith should have just handed the book over to scientists or others. They said that story about a small piece had been handed to an official once. I knew that story and I could have kept on discussing this with them. But it was getting too late and dinner was prepared for me and I wanted to see my kid.

They parted with "you asked, 'what if it is fake' so I ask you what if it is real".

I could not let that go. "Well, if Mormonism was real, it would mean Islam was fake. The logical studies used to discount Islam as not being real could be applied back to Mormonism to prove it was fake."

And I parted with a comment that God would not play such a trick on people.

Somewhere during the conversation I told them that I knew I was not going to make any impact on them but maybe, ten years from now, they might remember me.

I wish I could spend hours talking to them. I wonder how long it would take to convince them that they are wasting their short lives on Earth supporting a cult and a lie. I wonder if that is even possible. It is probably not possible. I remember hearing about support groups in Utah for exMormons that would receive lost souls who would say that they could not leave the LDS Church because it would mean that they would loose their families.

I wish I was wealthier. I wish I could afford to tell people that they did not have to go home to their evil cults. They could stay here on my farm and work for me where we can grow wisdom, knowledge, rationality and understanding.
The BOM is fake but I'd rather deal withMormons than Jehovah witnesses.

[RandFan]

The BOM is fake but I'd rather deal withMormons than Jehovah witnesses.As anoying as they can be Mormons are on the whole kind and decent people. By all means challenge them at their door but don't be cruel and I would urge you not to see them with contempt.

[Skeptic Ginger]

number of times mormon missionaries have knocked at my door: zero

besides, if they were knocking at my door, how would i recognize them on the bus?Amazing. i'm curious as to what makes them pick which neighborhoods.

In the past only Jehovah's Witnesses used to come to my door. They dropped off a Watchtower (http://www.watchtower.org/) pamphlet if I wasn't home. But I haven't seen a JW proselytizer in years. Currently in my middle class suburban home I get the local Evangelical church proselytizers once every couple months. They are sometimes men, sometimes women. In 20 years, the Mormons have probably been here 3-4 times, so it isn't that they come every month. It just happens they came only a week or so ago. The Mormons are always young men. I've never seen Mormon women going door to door.

[Skeptic Ginger]

The BOM is fake but I'd rather deal withMormons than Jehovah witnesses.

Not all JWs are the same. I had some good friends that were JWs (they have since moved out of state and I don't keep in touch). They were very nice people and never pushed their religion when I was around.

[Skeptic Ginger]

As anoying as they can be Mormons are on the whole kind and decent people. By all means challenge them at their door but don't be cruel and I would urge you not to see them with contempt.I much prefer challenging the proselytizers at my door than the sales people who prefer to come at dinner time to catch you at home and sometimes get rude if I'm not interested.

[SezMe]

Wow, all I can say is that I could never think so fast and well on my feet like that, Bill Thompson!
You believed that whole story?

[RandFan]

You believed that whole story?In a word, no.

[Ausmerican]

You believed that whole story?

I believe Bill saw two Mormons on his way home.
The rest, I suspect, occured later.
In his head.

[SezMe]

In a word, no.

I believe Bill saw two Mormons on his way home.
The rest, I suspect, occured later.
In his head.
Thank you. I thought I was the only one who couldn't subscribe to Bill's fantasy land story.

[Bill Thompson]

I remember they said "well, you asked 'what if it is fake'. So I have to ask you, 'what if it is not fake'".

I should have said, "if Mormonism is fake you would use fear as a recruiting tool". Instead I said "God would not trick us like this". Which is basically the same sort of thing but covers more than just one topic.

Also, "what if it is fake" was not exactly what I had asked. I had asked a more complicated question which was "what if it was fake, what would that look like". Which was something they did not or could not fathom. So they modified it in their minds.

[Bill Thompson]

I believe Bill saw two Mormons on his way home.
The rest, I suspect, occured later.
In his head.

No, it happend exactly as I described it.

Wow, where did you come up with that?

[Bill Thompson]

In a word, no.
That is insulting.
What kind of proof do you want?
We have a date, time and location. Do the Mormons keep records?

[Bill Thompson]

This conversation really happened. How do I get proof? I am offended that you doubt it did. If it had not happened, I could just have easily said "this is how I imagine I might approach Mormons one day..."

They handed me a card with a painting of Jesus on one side and some 13 things they believe on the other side with an invitation to go to some dot org web site. Maybe I will see if I can use that lead to find these two lads and have them testify on camera.

I am insulted. Does it make you feel better about yourself to call someone a liar? Do the Mormons keep diaries or records of who they meet?

[SezMe]

No, it happend exactly as I described it.

See, there is where you lose any skeptic. NOTHING happened exactly in accordance with your (very fallible) memory. Too bad you won't admit it.

This conversation really happened. How do I get proof? I am offended that you doubt it did.

Of course you can't provide "proof". I don't think anybody doubts that the the conversation happened, thus your hurt, tender feelings are out of place. I, and others, do doubt it that it proceeded "exactly" as you said.

I am insulted. Does it make you feel better about yourself to call someone a liar?
Nobody here has called you a liar. Get off your damn high horse.

[Bill Thompson]

See, there is where you lose any skeptic. NOTHING happened exactly in accordance with your (very fallible) memory. Too bad you won't admit it.



Are you just being academic or annoying?

You know what I mean. It happened. I wrote the post the same day. It is as accurate as I could make it.

Now I have to waist my time trying to find proof just because you are lacking something in your life!!

[SezMe]

Now I have to waist my time trying to find proof just because you are lacking something in your life!!
I certainly don't lack a waist. Asserting so would be a waste.

[Bill Thompson]

I am pissed. I was not lying and it is not fiction. I would have said otherwise.

[Bill Thompson]

I am happy for spell checkers like you. You have a place in this world. Want to compare tax returns?

See, there is where you lose any skeptic. NOTHING happened exactly in accordance with your (very fallible) memory. Too bad you won't admit it.

Are you just being academic or annoying?

You know what I mean. It happened. I wrote the post the same day. It is as accurate as I could make it.

Now I have to waste my time trying to find proof just because you are lacking something in your life!!

[tsig]

I am happy for spell checkers like you. You have a place in this world. Want to compare tax returns?



Are you just being academic or annoying?

You know what I mean. It happened. I wrote the post the same day. It is as accurate as I could make it.

Now I have to waste my time trying to find proof just because you are lacking something in your life!!

It's just that the details seem a bit off. Mormons generally don't accost strangers on the street they prefer to knock on doors also their reactions also their reaction is odd.

[Foster Zygote]

In a word, no.

This bit is accurate.

"It is something that could only come from Bill Thompson..."

[RandFan]

That is insulting.
What kind of proof do you want?
We have a date, time and location. Do the Mormons keep records?Bill, I've no doubt you met with two Mormon missionaries. I'm skeptical of the specifics is all, More importantly I note that skepticism and critical thinking is one way only. No skepticism for an ancient book with witches, talking snakes, talking donkeys, giants, unicorns, magic, Noah's flood, genocide after genocide, torture and murder of children, no archeological evidence to support Exodus. etc.. I mean, what if your book were fake?

[RandFan]

I am pissed. I was not lying and it is not fiction. I would have said otherwise.It would be easier to believe if you demonstrated skepticism for your own beliefs. The Bible is demonstrably wrong about so many things. There are so many contradictions, silly stories and brutality the likes of which are incomprehensible. Mormonism has a lot of demonstrably false ideas but then so does Christianity.

How do you control for confirmation bias? How do we know that you aren't weaving the tail to make you look good? BTW, the OP is largely about you.

[SezMe]

IHow do you control for confirmation bias? How do we know that you aren't weaving the tail to make you look good? BTW, the OP is largely about you.
Ya know, RandFan, if I'm gonna give Bill a ration of poop for his misuse of homonyms then fair play demands you get the same treatment.

One might think Bill is letting the tail wag the dog with his tale.

ETA: Or you did that on purpose, thereby making me look like a boob.

[RandFan]

Ya know, RandFan, if I'm gonna give Bill a ration of poop for his misuse of homonyms then fair play demands you get the same treatment.

One might think Bill is letting the tail wag the dog with his tale.

ETA: Or you did that on purpose, thereby making me look like a boob.:) I accept the admonishment. I will try harder.

[SezMe]

No admonishment here. 'Jes having some fun with the screwy King's English. :)

[Bill Thompson]

It's just that the details seem a bit off. Mormons generally don't accost strangers on the street they prefer to knock on doors also their reactions also their reaction is odd.

We were walking towards each other. It kind of opened up. They did not run up to me nor did I run up to them.

Someone here said something about the bus? No, they were not riding with me on the bus.

[RandFan]

It's just that the details seem a bit off. Mormons generally don't accost strangers on the street they prefer to knock on doors also their reactions also their reaction is odd.(emphasis mine) This is true but in the interest of full disclosure I'd say a small percentage, perhaps 5% of "tracting" is done in malls or at stores or on sidewalks. My recollection was that we didn't approach anyone but looked for people who looked as if they needed assistance or were depressed. Some missionaries would approach just about anyone but that wasn't typical. We were discouraged from hanging out in public places so we usually walked around a shopping center looking to see if someone needed help putting groceries in their car or had troubles with the gas pump. That kind of stuff. And occasionally we found someone who was obviously despondent but most simply wanted to be left alone. Now, that was in 1981 & 1982. The rules might have changed. I don't know.

[Minoosh]

My recollection was that we didn't approach anyone but looked for people who looked as if they needed assistance or were depressed.

Which would work for me, I'd go from feeling depressed to feeling pissed off.

Ad homonym attacks. I like that.

[RandFan]

Which would work for me, I'd go from feeling depressed to feeling pissed off.

Ad homonym attacks. I like that.ad hominem. ;) I don't know what you mean but I like the spelling.

[SezMe]

ad hominem. ;) I don't know what you mean but I like the spelling.
Ummm, I think she was doing a little word play.