Electromagnetic Hypersensitivity. Real deal or real delusion?

[CTB]

An article on the UK's BBC news site caught my interest recently:


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-14887428


It appears that some people are allergic to wi-fi.


Without wishing to demean the apparent discomfort and pain of the sufferers I was wondering if anyone could shed some light as to what is really going on. I find it hard to believe that the invention of wi-fi is responsible.

Is this 'syndrome' in some way related to disquiet over mobile phone masts ?


I'm just a curious bod, so would appreciate an informed opinion or two, preferably with a link for me to do some further reading.



much obliged,


CTB

[TubbaBlubba]

Hysteric nonsense. Humans cannot sense weak electromagnetic fields. Double-blind tests with covered screens turned on have all yielded negative result.

[billw]

The majority of provocation trials to date have found that self-described sufferers of electromagnetic hypersensitivity are unable to distinguish between exposure to real and fake electromagnetic fields,[/URL][URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_Hypersensitivity#cite_note-Roosli2008-2"] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_Hypersensitivity#cite_note-RubinProvReview2005-1) and it is not recognized as a medical condition by the medical or scientific communities.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_Hypersensitivity

[The Don]

From that same BBC article:

Scientists conducted a number of tests on a 35-year-old physician who had diagnosed herself with EHS.

She was seated on a wooden chair while voltage was applied to metal plates for pulses of 90 seconds to create a series of magnetic fields. The woman was asked to describe her symptoms after each exposure and after random sham exposures when, unknown to her, there was no voltage.

She reported headaches, pain and muscle twitching during the genuine exposures and no symptoms for the majority of the sham exposures.

The scientists concluded that such consistency could not be attributed to chance.

That sounds like a completely different kind of thing to me.

If that person is so sensitive to magnetic fields, the Earth's field must be a nightmare for her



I also wonder if the EHS mob understand that they are bathed in all kinds of Electromagnetic radiation as the subject of the article says:

I can see the sunrise, I can see the stars at night, and I can be in the rain.

Just so long as there's no Electomagnetic radiation in that sunrise eh ? :rolleyes:

[drelda]

I found a good publication by Sense About Science which covers a lot of this stuff :

http://www.senseaboutscience.org/data/files/resources/8/MSofRadiation.pdf

About 3% of the UK population believe that mobile phones, masts and Wi-Fi affect heir health, reporting a range of symptoms within minutes of being near a mobile phone or mast emitting a radio frequency. The media coined the term ‘electrosensitives’ to describe them and they have been the subject of several large-scale scientific investigations.

The group led by Professor Elaine Fox at the University of Essex tested hundreds of people over five years and found no evidence that mobile phone radiation is linked to subjective symptoms or physiological,12 such as blood pressure, or cognitive ones,13 such as memory or attention. Professor Fox’s team went on to conduct a laboratory-based study to investigate how symptoms arose. They found that when people who classified themselves as ‘electrosensitive’ knew that a mast emitting RF was turned on the number of symptoms they experienced increased dramatically compared to the control group. However, under double-blind conditions – when no-one knew whether the mast was on or off – there were no differences in how they felt when the radiation was present and when it was absent. Although the symptoms are real and measurable they are not caused by the presence of the RF radiation.

The vast majority of research on the short-term health effects of mobile phones and masts indicates that the health effects are not due to the radiation emitted but to worrying about the impact it might have.


- Drelda

[catsmate1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_Hypersensitivity


"The symptoms described by 'electromagnetic hypersensitivity' sufferers can be severe and are sometimes disabling. However, it has proved difficult to show under blind conditions that exposure to electromagnetic fields can trigger these symptoms. This suggests that 'electromagnetic hypersensitivity' is unrelated to the presence of electromagnetic fields, although more research into this phenomenon is required."Rubin, James; J Das Munshi J, Simon Wessely (March–April 2005). "Electromagnetic hypersensitivity: a systematic review of provocation studies".

[Mojo]

Scientists conducted a number of tests on a 35-year-old physician who had diagnosed herself with EHS.

She was seated on a wooden chair while voltage was applied to metal plates for pulses of 90 seconds to create a series of magnetic fields. The woman was asked to describe her symptoms after each exposure and after random sham exposures when, unknown to her, there was no voltage.


Has there been a proper report of this? Without further details there's no way of knowing, for example, how effective the blinding may have been.

[The Don]

Has there been a proper report of this? Without further details there's no way of knowing, for example, how effective the blinding may have been.

If I understand the BBC article correctly

The study was carried out by scientists at Louisiana State University led by Dr Andrew Marino and the results were published by the International Journal of Neuroscience.

Here is a link to the Abstract:

http://informahealthcare.com/doi/abs/10.3109/00207454.2011.608139?prevSearch=allfield%253A%2528 Electromagnetic%2BHypersensitivity%2529&searchHistoryKey=

A quick scan of the abstract:


Single subject
Double-blinding
Nothing to do with wi-fi frequencies
Allegedly the on/off was the critical point, not the field presence
(p < .05) - so could this just be a chance result and/or the result of cherry-picking and/ data mining ?



edited to add......

Dr Marino's other published works include:

- Where's the EPA's sense of decency ?
- Meta-Analysis of Multi-Generational Studies of Mice Exposed to Power-Frequency Electric Fields
- Partizanist Discrimination in California Favors Power Companies

http://informahealthcare.com/action/doSearch?type=advanced&prevSearch=authorsfield%3A%28Andrew+A.+Marino%29

He's been looking for this for 20 years and now he has found it

[drelda]

Interestingly the abstract also says :

The subject had no conscious perception of the field as judged by her inability to report its presence more often than in the sham control.


So she couldn't sense when the EM field was there or not. A lot of people do claim to be able to do that.

- Drelda

[MRC_Hans]

Scientists conducted a number of tests on a 35-year-old physician who had diagnosed herself with EHS.

She was seated on a wooden chair while voltage was applied to metal plates for pulses of 90 seconds to create a series of magnetic fields. The woman was asked to describe her symptoms after each exposure and after random sham exposures when, unknown to her, there was no voltage.

She reported headaches, pain and muscle twitching during the genuine exposures and no symptoms for the majority of the sham exposures.

The scientists concluded that such consistency could not be attributed to chance.

You don't make magnetic fields that way. I concede that this could be a product of incompetent reporting, but it does not bode well for the quality of the study.

(Voltage applied to metal plates creates an electrical field.)

Hans

[MRC_Hans]

If I understand the BBC article correctly

The study was carried out by scientists at Louisiana State University led by Dr Andrew Marino and the results were published by the International Journal of Neuroscience.

Here is a link to the Abstract:

http://informahealthcare.com/doi/abs/10.3109/00207454.2011.608139?prevSearch=allfield%253A%2528 Electromagnetic%2BHypersensitivity%2529&searchHistoryKey=

A quick scan of the abstract:


Single subject
Double-blinding
Nothing to do with wi-fi frequencies
Allegedly the on/off was the critical point, not the field presence
(p < .05) - so could this just be a chance result and/or the result of cherry-picking and/ data mining ?



edited to add......

Dr Marino's other published works include:

- Where's the EPA's sense of decency ?
- Meta-Analysis of Multi-Generational Studies of Mice Exposed to Power-Frequency Electric Fields
- Partizanist Discrimination in California Favors Power Companies

http://informahealthcare.com/action/doSearch?type=advanced&prevSearch=authorsfield%3A%28Andrew+A.+Marino%29

He's been looking for this for 20 years and now he has found it

OK, more detailed in that link, thx. 60Hz, 300VM, still no indication whether it was an electrical or magnetic field. One subject and only reacting to changes, no control subject. I see a number of potential caveats.

Hans

[CTB]

Thank-you all for your responses and opinions.

I'm minded along the route of psychosomatic response, but know very little ( actually, next to nothing - ok zip all ) about this field.

As for creating an electromagnetic field, wouldn't a coil of copper ( eg a 10 metre extension cable ) be able to provide a controllable experiment? What I mean is, if it wasn't uncoiled yet plugged in and a series of desk lamps, starting at 15watts increasing to 60watts, were used there might be some noticable ( therefore recordable ) differences to subject our poor sufferer to. ( Okay, laughably unscientific, but you get the picture. It'd be cheap, too!)

I'm more interested in where the symptoms of the sufferers come from. Is it possible to will yourself to illness? I need to dig around more in the illness presented, I s'pose. I've seen a very young nephew end up in hospital thanks to eating a peanut ( he's none the worse, thankfully to the docs ) He's got a genuine allergy and a pretty severe one at that. His symptoms, I'd imagine, are hard to fake.


A bit of me wonders if it's the word 'radiation' although my nephew doesn't go to hospital because there are bags of peanuts in the shop.

Apologies, beginning to have a bit of thought-drift. As I said before...


...much obliged!


CTB

[portlandatheist]

Delusion.

[MikeSun5]

What about magnetic fields, I wonder? There's that small iron deposit on the bridge of everyone's nose, and on more than one occasion, I've urged people to wave a magnet in front of it. Some people think I'm making stuff up (since they feel nothing), but if I wave a magnet between my own eyes, I get a really uncomfortable feeling that resembles a headache. That suggests that people have different sensitivities to magnets... maybe that's what these people are reacting to.

Speakers have tiny magnets in them... or maybe I'm reaching too far...

[Roger Ramjets]

if I wave a magnet between my own eyes, I get a really uncomfortable feeling that resembles a headache. That suggests that people have different sensitivities to magnets...Sorry but your experiment is invalid - it wasn't double-blinded.

Poke both of your eyes out and try again. :)

[Roger Ramjets]

OK, more detailed in that link, thx. 60Hz, 300VM, still no indication whether it was an electrical or magnetic field.'VM', Volts per meter? Sounds like an electric field. If it was a magnetic field then it would be measured in Ampere turns per meter or Newton meters per Amp. And they would be using coils, not plates.

Allegedly the on/off was the critical point, not the field presenceAt 60Hz the field would actually be turning on and off (and reversing) 120 times per second for the whole time it was applied, so what exactly was this 'critical on/off point'?

300V/m isn't that much anyway. Now, had they applied 2450V to the subject with a galvanic connection, she might have felt a bit more uncomfortable. ;)

[Robrob]

Some people think I'm making stuff up (since they feel nothing), but if I wave a magnet between my own eyes, I get a really uncomfortable feeling that resembles a headache.
Obviously biased. You either have to draw blindly from a mixed bag of identical magnets and non-magnets or have someone do the picking and waving for you. So far all you're doing is proving the placebo effect (in reverse).

If that person is so sensitive to magnetic fields, the Earth's field must be a nightmare for her
No different than the people who imagine stars a million light years away somehow affect their lives when the chair they're sitting in as an effect many orders of magnitude greater on their bodies.

[MRC_Hans]

Thank-you all for your responses and opinions.

I'm minded along the route of psychosomatic response, but know very little ( actually, next to nothing - ok zip all ) about this field.

Psychosomatic is absolutely the best bet for this. Especially since nearly all the reported symptoms are subjective.

As for creating an electromagnetic field, wouldn't a coil of copper ( eg a 10 metre extension cable ) be able to provide a controllable experiment? What I mean is, if it wasn't uncoiled yet plugged in and a series of desk lamps, starting at 15watts increasing to 60watts, were used there might be some noticable ( therefore recordable ) differences to subject our poor sufferer to. ( Okay, laughably unscientific, but you get the picture. It'd be cheap, too!)

Ahh, no, not quite. Because both leads are close together in the cord, the magnet fields cancel out. However, split a zip cord, coil one lead up, connect your lamps though that, and you have your field.

I'm more interested in where the symptoms of the sufferers come from. Is it possible to will yourself to illness? I need to dig around more in the illness presented, I s'pose.

Yes it is possible to not only feel very ill, but to have objective symptoms (blood pressure, high or low pulse, rashes, motor disturbances) from psychological impetus. All that has been proven experimentally.

There are even rare cases of mentally induced blindness, speechlessness (not that rare), deafness, and various degrees of paralysis.

I've seen a very young nephew end up in hospital thanks to eating a peanut ( he's none the worse, thankfully to the docs ) He's got a genuine allergy and a pretty severe one at that. His symptoms, I'd imagine, are hard to fake.

Yes, that is probably genuine. You can, to a degree, simulate the symptoms of an anaphylactic shock, but you won't fool a doctor.



A bit of me wonders if it's the word 'radiation' although my nephew doesn't go to hospital because there are bags of peanuts in the shop.

No, radiation does not come into it. He is allergic to specific chemical substances in the nuts. For some reason, his immune system thinks that those substances are a dangerous infection and overreacts.

After his experience, he doesn't want to get within visible distance of a bag of peanuts. An understandable, if irrational reaction.

Hans

[MRC_Hans]

What about magnetic fields, I wonder? There's that small iron deposit on the bridge of everyone's nose, and on more than one occasion, I've urged people to wave a magnet in front of it. Some people think I'm making stuff up (since they feel nothing), but if I wave a magnet between my own eyes, I get a really uncomfortable feeling that resembles a headache. That suggests that people have different sensitivities to magnets... maybe that's what these people are reacting to.

Speakers have tiny magnets in them... or maybe I'm reaching too far...I don't know. I get a feeling like that if I wave anything over the area between my eyes. To test it, you should be blindfolded, and both magnets and sham magnets should be used in a random order.

Speakers have quite powerful magnets in them.

Hans

[MRC_Hans]

'VM', Volts per meter? Sounds like an electric field. If it was a magnetic field then it would be measured in Ampere turns per meter or Newton meters per Amp. And they would be using coils, not plates.

Yes, I deduce that, too, but it should not be left to deduction. A scientific report should be concise.

VM is also used to indicate electromagnetic field strength.

At 60Hz the field would actually be turning on and off (and reversing) 120 times per second for the whole time it was applied, so what exactly was this 'critical on/off point'?

Yes, but it might be the exposure to an AC field that she senses. DC fields are quite common (static electricity) and can easily reach thousands of volts per meter, so if the was sensitive to that, a winter day would be hell for her.

However, I suspect that she was being made aware of the switch off/on times (being asked to report every time, or something), that could give the result pattern they report: She reacted to the changes, but was not able to indicate whether there was a field or not.

Hans

[CTB]

No, radiation does not come into it. He is allergic to specific chemical substances in the nuts. For some reason, his immune system thinks that those substances are a dangerous infection and overreacts.

After his experience, he doesn't want to get within visible distance of a bag of peanuts. An understandable, if irrational reaction.

Hans



ah yes, of course. I'd conflated two differing thoughts and put them in a lazy sentence.

What I was trying to get at is: Some people seem to spook themselves silly on hearing the word 'radiation' whereas something like a peanut allergy brings very definite physical responses.


CTB

[Mojo]

speechlessness (not that rare)


Pretty unusual around here.

[sol invictus]

Yes, but it might be the exposure to an AC field that she senses. DC fields are quite common (static electricity) and can easily reach thousands of volts per meter, so if the was sensitive to that, a winter day would be hell for her.

However, I suspect that she was being made aware of the switch off/on times (being asked to report every time, or something), that could give the result pattern they report: She reacted to the changes, but was not able to indicate whether there was a field or not.

If she's sensitive to 60Hz it's even worse - that's the frequency of AC power in the US, so it's everywhere in every building.

I'd say she may have detected the 60Hz vibrations in the plates that applying such a voltage is basically guaranteed to create. They would make a low amplitude, low frequency sound - perhaps too slight to be consciously aware of, but it might make one feel uneasy if it's right on the edge of perception.

Nothing whatsoever to do with wifi, though. And it's not as though it's a surprise that humans are sensitive to some frequencies of EM radiation - we can see, after all.

ETA - just to be clear, I'm not saying she (or anyone) is able to directly detect 60Hz EM fields of any non-insane amplitude. I'm saying she might have heard them through the sound the vibrating plates made, and that even if she could sense the EM fields directly, you couldn't conclude anything about wifi from that - not any more than you can conclude something about sensitivity to wifi from the fact that we can see light.

[Flo]

I've seen a couple interviews of people pretending to suffer from such an oversensibility on French and Swiss TV channels. Both cases demanded that the interviewers come all the way to some location away in the countryside supposedly protected from electromagnetic fields, but were perfectly happy and symptoms free while being surrounded for quite a long time by a camera, sound equipments and various transmitters (and very likely the reporter's and technicians' active mobile phones), explaining how awful those EF were, and what horrible symptoms they would exhibit had the interview been conducted downtown, bla, bla, bla.

I remember thinking how ridiculously pathetic they were looking, especially the Swiss guy who was in a mountain area I know quite well and has excellent wifi and mobile phone reception ...

[JWideman]

Supposed symptoms of exposure to low intensity EMF: headache, fatigue, tinnitus, dizziness, memory deficits, irregular heart beat, and whole-body skin symptoms.
Symptoms of exposure to very high intensity EMF (standing in front of a radar dish): burns, organ failure, loss of consciousness, death.

So, with enough power, you get visible, physical, and even fatal symptoms. But anything less than that and you get undetectable symptoms that could easily be psychosomatic?

[MRC_Hans]

Supposed symptoms of exposure to low intensity EMF: headache, fatigue, tinnitus, dizziness, memory deficits, irregular heart beat, and whole-body skin symptoms.
Symptoms of exposure to very high intensity EMF (standing in front of a radar dish): burns, organ failure, loss of consciousness, death.

So, with enough power, you get visible, physical, and even fatal symptoms. But anything less than that and you get undetectable symptoms that could easily be psychosomatic?

Not quite. In the medium level, you get a feeling of heat, superficial burns, probably reduced fertility 1)1) and maybe increased cancer risk 2).

1) Supported by a very solid amount of anecdotes from radar technicians.

2) Not well supported; an over average level occurrence of cancer among military radar operators recently turned out to be due to radioactive radiation from certain components (thyratrons) in older types of radar sets.

Hans

[sol invictus]

Supposed symptoms of exposure to low intensity EMF: headache, fatigue, tinnitus, dizziness, memory deficits, irregular heart beat, and whole-body skin symptoms.
Symptoms of exposure to very high intensity EMF (standing in front of a radar dish): burns, organ failure, loss of consciousness, death.

So, with enough power, you get visible, physical, and even fatal symptoms. But anything less than that and you get undetectable symptoms that could easily be psychosomatic?

There's no doubt that very high amplitude EM radiation has physical effects on humans. But here are two things to bear in mind.

First, the effects depend very strongly on the frequency. For example, the microwaves in a microwave oven have a very strong effect on anything that contains water (like humans), but if you changed the frequency just a little, the effect would be greatly reduced. So there are always at least two important factors in play - frequency and amplitude or intensity.

Second, the intensity of radiation you're exposed to standing right in front of a radar dish is vastly different from the intensity you're exposed to being in the same room as a wifi router. If you were to extrapolate based on the power absorbed, you'd probably find the effect is absurdly small for wifi (although I haven't done that). But biology doesn't work that way - very low levels are likely to be even less harmful than that linear extrapolation would tell you, because biological systems tend to be robust to small perturbations.

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Supposed symptoms of exposure to low intensity EMF: headache, fatigue, tinnitus, dizziness, memory deficits, irregular heart beat, and whole-body skin symptoms.
Symptoms of exposure to very high intensity EMF (standing in front of a radar dish): burns, organ failure, loss of consciousness, death.

So, with enough power, you get visible, physical, and even fatal symptoms. But anything less than that and you get undetectable symptoms that could easily be psychosomatic?


Repeat the above, replacing the words EMF with the word sunshine, and see if it makes sense.

:th:

[quadraginta]

speechlessness (not that rare)


Pretty unusual around here.


How could we tell?

:p

[JWideman]

Not quite. In the medium level, you get a feeling of heat, superficial burns, probably reduced fertility 1)1) and maybe increased cancer risk 2).

1) Supported by a very solid amount of anecdotes from radar technicians.

2) Not well supported; an over average level occurrence of cancer among military radar operators recently turned out to be due to radioactive radiation from certain components (thyratrons) in older types of radar sets.

Hans

Okay. I wasn't sure on the midrange effects as the only reports I could find were crackpot sources.
In any case, the point is that the symptoms aren't simply mild versions of the high intensity ones, they're entirely different.

[MRC_Hans]

Okay. I wasn't sure on the midrange effects as the only reports I could find were crackpot sources.
In any case, the point is that the symptoms aren't simply mild versions of the high intensity ones, they're entirely different.

The reported hypersensitivity symptoms, yes. They are different. The high- and medium range symptoms are similar (local heating, cell damage).

Hans

[EHocking]

...I'd say she may have detected the 60Hz vibrations in the plates that applying such a voltage is basically guaranteed to create. They would make a low amplitude, low frequency sound - perhaps too slight to be consciously aware of, but it might make one feel uneasy if it's right on the edge of perception...Also, note this observation from the abstract,
The symptoms were caused primarily by field transitions (off–on, on–off) rather than the presence of the field.
On the face of it, it is not unreasonable to conclude that their "procedure specifically designed to minimize unintentional sensory cues" failed and that she could either hear the switch being thrown, or there were other cues that the researchers missed.

[MikeSun5]

Obviously biased. You either have to draw blindly from a mixed bag of identical magnets and non-magnets or have someone do the picking and waving for you. So far all you're doing is proving the placebo effect (in reverse).

So I've convinced myself and a few others to feel sensations we're not really feeling through suggestion and by waving objects around? My career as a mentalist is off to a great start! ;)

I've never had another person wave a magnet in front of my nose with my eyes closed. May be worth trying if the subject comes up again (and I have a magnet handy :)) I've never given it much thought. Just figured it was one of those weird things about the human body, since there is an iron deposit there, and iron is magnetic.

It's entirely possible that the sensation is the result of a placebo effect, but...

Speakers have quite powerful magnets in them.

...what if it isn't?

I was really just wondering aloud if that could explain any of that sensitivity to electromagnetism these people were apparently having.

[wardenclyffe]

So I've convinced myself and a few others to feel sensations we're not really feeling through suggestion and by waving objects around? My career as a mentalist is off to a great start! ;)

I've never had another person wave a magnet in front of my nose with my eyes closed. May be worth trying if the subject comes up again (and I have a magnet handy :)) I've never given it much thought. Just figured it was one of those weird things about the human body, since there is an iron deposit there, and iron is magnetic.

It's entirely possible that the sensation is the result of a placebo effect, but...



...what if it isn't?


What if it isn't? Then you might qualify for the Million Dollar Challenge. It might be worth having the subject come up again and it might be worth it to have a magnet handy.

Ward

[Mojo]

Allegedly the on/off was the critical point, not the field presence


Could the switching on and off of the field have caused some subtle sound that she was subconsciously picking up?

[sol invictus]

What if it isn't? Then you might qualify for the Million Dollar Challenge. It might be worth having the subject come up again and it might be worth it to have a magnet handy.


A powerful enough magnetic field will affect the human body. It can make a frog levitate, after all. And in principle it could affect cognition, which relies on electric currents. However I don't think there's any evidence that even the strongest (DC) fields we're capable of generating in the lab are detectable to people.

Could the switching on and off of the field have caused some subtle sound that she was subconsciously picking up?

Yes, that was my suggestion above. Switching an electric (or magnetic) field on and off is guaranteed to generate sound at the switching frequency unless you do it in a vacuum or in an extremely well-isolated way, and humans are sensitive to quite low levels of acoustic energy.

[Vorpal]

A powerful enough magnetic field will affect the human body. It can make a frog levitate, after all. And in principle it could affect cognition, which relies on electric currents.
Not just in principle; they can, and sometimes in a a fairly subtle yet scary way (http://www.pnas.org/content/107/15/6753.abstract?sid=62356386-3e46-445c-bc6d-f18cf42da775)*. Though this experiment was based on electromagnetic induction rather than simply a strong but nearly static field.

Switching an electric (or magnetic) field on and off is guaranteed to generate sound at the switching frequency unless you do it in a vacuum or in an extremely well-isolated way, and humans are sensitive to quite low levels of acoustic energy.
Good idea.

*PS: Post 666. Muahaha.

[MattusMaximus]

Hysteric nonsense. Humans cannot sense weak electromagnetic fields. Double-blind tests with covered screens turned on have all yielded negative result.

This ^

Until the effects are measurable in tightly controlled, double-blinded tests, then it's nothing more than mass hysteria and anecdotal fear-mongering.

[MattusMaximus]

A powerful enough magnetic field will affect the human body. It can make a frog levitate, after all. And in principle it could affect cognition, which relies on electric currents. However I don't think there's any evidence that even the strongest (DC) fields we're capable of generating in the lab are detectable to people.

It's worth making a distinction here between static and time-varying magnetic fields. A time-varying magnetic field will induce electrical fields which can cause measurable biological effects (besides the diamagnetic levitation thing, which is way cool).

[temporalillusion]

Some people think I'm making stuff up (since they feel nothing), but if I wave a magnet between my own eyes, I get a really uncomfortable feeling that resembles a headache. That suggests that people have different sensitivities to magnets...

I can get that same feeling without magnets (just by bringing my own finger close to the bridge of my nose), and I can now even induce it by imagining the same thing.

That suggests it's all in your head.

[MikeSun5]

Then you might qualify for the Million Dollar Challenge.
That suggests it's all in your head.

Man, that's what I get for throwing an idea out there to try an add to a discussion. You guys act like I'm just making anecdotal stuff up to get attention. :boggled:

It's odd though, how incredulous you guys seem regarding the effects magnets have on magnetic objects. Although my post was me thinking out loud (lesson learned), it was based on actual human anatomy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetoception#In_humans) rather than woo. It may be a benefit next time to google something first before blindly raising the skeptic banner and directing someone towards the MDC.

[sol invictus]

It's worth making a distinction here between static and time-varying magnetic fields.

Already done above. That was the whole point - AC fields can obviously affect you, but DC perhaps not, or at least it must be very strong.

A time-varying magnetic field will induce electrical fields which can cause measurable biological effects (besides the diamagnetic levitation thing, which is way cool).

A time-varying magnetic field can cook your brain, if for instance your head is inside a microwave oven. So yeah, time-varying fields can definitely cause biological effects. Vorpal gave a more interesting example above.

As I said, I'm unaware of any research that shows that DC or very low frequency fields, at the level we can generate them, have any measurable effect. And to reiterate, for AC, it depends on the frequency, and it depends on the power. Wifi is very low power.

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Man, that's what I get for throwing an idea out there to try an add to a discussion. You guys act like I'm just making anecdotal stuff up to get attention. :boggled:

If you post here, expect to be questioned. What did you expect by posting your OP?

It's odd though, how incredulous you guys seem regarding the effects magnets have on magnetic objects. Although my post was me thinking out loud (lesson learned), it was based on actual human anatomy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetoception#In_humans) rather than woo. It may be a benefit next time to google something first before blindly raising the skeptic banner and directing someone towards the MDC.

Actually, when you go to your wiki link, it says such things as: Other scientists have maintained they could not reproduce these results though the evidence from both sides remains contentious.

Magnetoception has been no means proven or accepted by science in general.

You could easily conduct a double-blind test. Why not do so and come back to this Forum with your results?

:th:

[MikeSun5]

What did you expect by posting your OP?

To add something to the conversation that hadn't previously been mentioned, maybe? To possibly spark an idea, or have someone with knowledge on the subject make things clearer for myself and other readers? Why do you post in the JREF at all? Sheesh.

Magnetoception has been no means proven or accepted by science in general.

Agreed. :confused: I never contested that. I was referring to the magnetic bones in your face. I suggested they may react to magnets, what with them being magnetic and all. I didn't say anything about people sensing directions like birds, so your statment above is well out of place. The first sentence of the link I provided was really all I was pointing towards. I should have just quoted it. My bad. There's magnetic stuff in your face. That is all.

I've noticed a few guys in this forum are so eager for an argument, they invent claims for people and somehow interpret their subsequent irritation as them supporting and wanting to debate the strawmen. I didn't start this thread and I now regret posting in it. It won't happen again.

You could easily conduct a double-blind test. Why not do so and come back to this Forum with your results?

Shall I ask you to perform a double-blind test on something you weren't talking about as well? :)

[MRC_Hans]

So I've convinced myself and a few others to feel sensations we're not really feeling through suggestion and by waving objects around? My career as a mentalist is off to a great start! ;)

I've never had another person wave a magnet in front of my nose with my eyes closed. May be worth trying if the subject comes up again (and I have a magnet handy :)) I've never given it much thought. Just figured it was one of those weird things about the human body, since there is an iron deposit there, and iron is magnetic.

It's entirely possible that the sensation is the result of a placebo effect, but...



...what if it isn't?

Then there is a natural explanation, as you have already mentioned. There ARE magnets various places in our bodies, and there ARE animals (birds) that can sense compass directions.

And a strong magnet field has some physical effects in the body.

I was really just wondering aloud if that could explain any of that sensitivity to electromagnetism these people were apparently having.

That is, however, unlikely. There is a world of difference between a permanent (or DC) magnet field and an electromagnetic wave. Also, the strength of the field you experience with a magnet close to your skin is orders of magnitude higher than the normal exposure to electromagnetic fields.

In reality, field strength is the crux of the matter: Nobody denies that a strong enough exposure to electromagnetic waves has an effect on the body. We already discussed this. The thing is that even fields that are acutely dangerous to your health are only marginally sensed; people have died from microwave exposure, but all they noticed during the exposure was a burning feeling.

The likelihood that some individuals should be able to strongly react to exposures that are a million times weaker is simply implausible.

Hans

[temporalillusion]

Man, that's what I get for throwing an idea out there to try an add to a discussion. You guys act like I'm just making anecdotal stuff up to get attention. :boggled:

No, I didn't, did you miss the part where I said I can get the same feeling?

It's odd though, how incredulous you guys seem regarding the effects magnets have on magnetic objects. Although my post was me thinking out loud (lesson learned), it was based on actual human anatomy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetoception#In_humans) rather than woo. It may be a benefit next time to google something first before blindly raising the skeptic banner and directing someone towards the MDC.

I didn't have to Google it, since I already have read about it since, as I said, I also can get the same feeling.

You drew a conclusion that wasn't warranted ("suggests that people have different sensitivities to magnets"), I was showing that it wasn't warranted by drawing a different conclusion based on my anecdotal experience, that you think one has merit and the other doesn't suggests that you have a bias that you should look past.

[MRC_Hans]

To add something to the conversation that hadn't previously been mentioned, maybe? To possibly spark an idea, or have someone with knowledge on the subject make things clearer for myself and other readers? Why do you post in the JREF at all? Sheesh.



Agreed. :confused: I never contested that. I was referring to the magnetic bones in your face. I suggested they may react to magnets, what with them being magnetic and all. I didn't say anything about people sensing directions like birds, so your statment above is well out of place. The first sentence of the link I provided was really all I was pointing towards. I should have just quoted it. My bad. There's magnetic stuff in your face. That is all.

I've noticed a few guys in this forum are so eager for an argument, they invent claims for people and somehow interpret their subsequent irritation as them supporting and wanting to debate the strawmen. I didn't start this thread and I now regret posting in it. It won't happen again.



Shall I ask you to perform a double-blind test on something you weren't talking about as well? :)

You are right. However, this is the unfortunate side effect of a tactic often employed by strong believers. They come to the forum and write something like this:

"Now, I'm a staunch skeptic myself, but I once experienced [insert apparently paranormal anecdote], and I wonder how you guys would explain this."

Then, as the discussion unfolds, it turns out that they are very far from skeptics, and they indignantly demand that we accept their anecdote as proof of the paranormal. :rolleyes:

So, after enough of those (and we practically have one each week), genuine skeptics easily risk some friendly fire. ;)

Hans

[Gord_in_Toronto]

To add something to the conversation that hadn't previously been mentioned, maybe? To possibly spark an idea, or have someone with knowledge on the subject make things clearer for myself and other readers? Why do you post in the JREF at all? Sheesh.



Agreed. :confused: I never contested that. I was referring to the magnetic bones in your face. I suggested they may react to magnets, what with them being magnetic and all. I didn't say anything about people sensing directions like birds, so your statment above is well out of place. The first sentence of the link I provided was really all I was pointing towards. I should have just quoted it. My bad. There's magnetic stuff in your face. That is all.

I've noticed a few guys in this forum are so eager for an argument, they invent claims for people and somehow interpret their subsequent irritation as them supporting and wanting to debate the strawmen. I didn't start this thread and I now regret posting in it. It won't happen again.



Shall I ask you to perform a double-blind test on something you weren't talking about as well? :)

Your original post on which I was commenting:

What about magnetic fields, I wonder? There's that small iron deposit on the bridge of everyone's nose, and on more than one occasion, I've urged people to wave a magnet in front of it. Some people think I'm making stuff up (since they feel nothing), but if I wave a magnet between my own eyes, I get a really uncomfortable feeling that resembles a headache. That suggests that people have different sensitivities to magnets... maybe that's what these people are reacting to.

Speakers have tiny magnets in them... or maybe I'm reaching too far...


I did not suggest that you had the ability to fly South now that the stars are in the correct position. I was querying your ability to sense a magnetic field.

You also posted:

I've never had another person wave a magnet in front of my nose with my eyes closed. May be worth trying if the subject comes up again (and I have a magnet handy :)) This is a really simple thing to do and yet you have not done it.

I can only speak for myself but I think most of us here would be interested if you gave it a try and reported back to us.

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

I know it's a terribly unfair thing to say, but when you see the people (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-14887428) who report these things, the phrase 'wet weekend' springs unavoidably to my mind and the phrase 'get a grip' offers itself as the most effective treatment.

[wardenclyffe]

So I've convinced myself and a few others to feel sensations we're not really feeling through suggestion and by waving objects around? My career as a mentalist is off to a great start! ;)

I've never had another person wave a magnet in front of my nose with my eyes closed. May be worth trying if the subject comes up again (and I have a magnet handy :)) I've never given it much thought. Just figured it was one of those weird things about the human body, since there is an iron deposit there, and iron is magnetic.

It's entirely possible that the sensation is the result of a placebo effect, but...



...what if it isn't?

I was really just wondering aloud if that could explain any of that sensitivity to electromagnetism these people were apparently having.

I apologize if I seemed cavalier in mentioning that this might qualify for the MDC (and I still think it might). If, indeed, you thought that this was just a weird thing about the human body, then perhaps you have not given it much thought. That makes sense.

But now you are hearing from others that we are not aware of any other person on the planet who has such a sensation while waving a magnet in front of his/her face. I know if I were you, I'd be extremely curious about that and I would do what I could to figure out what's going on.

I'd slap on a blindfold and have a friend wave a magnet in front of my face as well as a similar size piece of wood or plastic and see if I could tell the difference. It would cost me nothing and it would (start, at least to) satisfy my curiosity.

But that's just me.

Ward