MDC thesis

[twob]

Who knows? Maybe me and the MDC? Doubt it very much. Why would the unpublic want to go public - for a few dream trinkets?

My theoretical proposal. Simple - a stage, 12 pictures concealed by cloth, pictures of the same size, pictures in a circle - containing 2 pictures of my own. The other 9 pictures are animated characters, how about - 1) the brave little toaster, 2) Buzz Lightyear, 3) Sponge Bob, 4) Bugs Bunny, 5) Daffy Duck, 6) Mickey Mouse, 7) Donald Duck, 8) Yosimite Sam, 9) Woody & 10) Wiley E. Coyote. Now the last 2. One picture of an Indian Saint, Lahiri Mahasaya (11) and one more picture - James Randi (12). Of course the pictures are unordered (mixed up).

Ok. These pictures are placed in a circle (diameter 25-40'), they are covered and put up off the ground say 3-5'.

The objective - find the picture of Lahri Mahasaya on one try (8.333 % chance).
However, since the spiritual path I've clung to is one of bringing the East to the West we will further difficult-ize this test.

A second round of pictures. This time the picture of Lahiri Mahasaya will be replaced with a picture of Christ.

The objective: Find the picture of Lahiri Mahasaya on the first round. If done, remove the finder (me), replace the picture of Lahiri Mahasaya with the picture of Christ, & rearrange the pictures. The finder then comes out and tries to find the picture of Christ on the first try. And the probabilty of success?

That would be .08333 (first round) X .08333 (second round) = 0.694.... % odds of finding both pictures on first try of 1st round and of first try on 2nd round. So a bit greater odds than 1 in 200.

What do you think? Is this a worthy challenge?

[Oualawouzou]

A few questions:

1) Can you state exactly what power you intend to demonstrate? I understand the pictures are hidden, but how do you detect the one you are looking for? Dowsing? Looking at the cloth real hard? Pure intuition?

2) What is the rationale behind switching the picture in the second round? Why not keep the same pictures and merely mix them up again?

3) If I recall right, your preliminary test should beat an odd of 1 in 1000, so you'd have to pick the correct picture three times in a row. Would you have a problem with that?

4) Have you ever tested your ability in a proper double-blind fashion?

[twob]

A few questions:

1) Can you state exactly what power you intend to demonstrate? I understand the pictures are hidden, but how do you detect the one you are looking for? Dowsing? Looking at the cloth real hard? Pure intuition?

2) What is the rationale behind switching the picture in the second round? Why not keep the same pictures and merely mix them up again?

3) If I recall right, your preliminary test should beat an odd of 1 in 1000, so you'd have to pick the correct picture three times in a row. Would you have a problem with that?

4) Have you ever tested your ability in a proper double-blind fashion?

1) No power demonstrated, just the natural progression of disciple to Guru relationship. This demonstration defies probability. According to what I have been reading here man is just an animal. And the world is all that there is, and the world's physical laws bind us. Of course I believe otherwise. Nothing magical. I believe that we are all just much more then we think we are.

How do you detect the picture? I don't know if I will be able to do this. But now, when I look at a picture of this saint I see pink emanations (love) coming from it. If this can be done it is by the development of one's spiritual eye (Christ - 'when thy eye be single the body will be full of light'). Anyway I am intuiting that I will see these pink vibrations coming from this picture covered or not (same with Christ). No magic here only the science of our true natures being developed and not ignored.

2) switching of the pictures in the second round? 1st round represents the east and the second round represents the west. This man foresaw in this timeless and spaceless place the worldly chain of events. So these spiritual practices of India could be of use to the west - i.e. the direct perception within oneself what was true and what wasn't. The proof or disproof from within ourselves. I am pretty sure this test will never materialize as these saints are the anti-advertizing types. This type of stuff comes into oneself through brutal self battles - nothing is free here.

3) No that was not my proposal. 2 rounds of one in twelve of each round is
.7 % chance of success. Isn't that enough?

4) No tests ever done. What brought this test to my mind was this. My Guru - Paramahansa Yogananda said it was possible to feel vibrations through the fingertips when spinning to the right. He made a promise to a boy who he told would die soon (oops) that he would re-find his soul upon his reincarnation. This he did. One time I thought I would try this out myself - not find a soul in the astral plane but something simple. Who knows? I was working in a residential setting. My coworker from swing shift was to pass the house keys to me. But he couldn't find them. We looked and looked.

So that night I tried this. I spun to my right several times feeling through my finger tips asking to know where those keys were. I intuited/felt a vibration that took me into the kitchen by the phone. I looked on the counter - no keys. Failure. Oh well, I thought I felt something.

The morning comes and the day staff arrives. I tell them that the keys are missing. The phone rings so I answer it - plop the keys were somehow stuck in the phone hook. So the tingling vibration I felt was correct. I did feel where the keys were I just processed the info incorrectly. I assumed they would be on the counter not stuck in the hung up phone. Hmmmm...........

[theprestige]

twob, I would recommend the following:

1. Perform the test you describe, repeatedly, for yourself, until you are certain you can get it right every time.

2. Go to your physician, or your college professor, or someone in the scientific community (i.e., not your Guru--think of it as "west, not east" if you like), and perform the test for them, and answer all their questions, so that they are satisfied that you can do this thing.

3. Once you have done these things, then talk to us about the MDC.

[Oualawouzou]

What theprestige said. If you need help in designing a test you can do on your own, we can help, and we'd certainly like it if you could keep us posted on the results.

[Ladewig]

twob, I would recommend the following:

1. Perform the test you describe, repeatedly, for yourself, until you are certain you can get it right every time.

2. Go to your physician, or your college professor, or someone in the scientific community (i.e., not your Guru--think of it as "west, not east" if you like), and perform the test for them, and answer all their questions, so that they are satisfied that you can do this thing.

3. Once you have done these things, then talk to us about the MDC.


Please pay attention to that post.

[twob]

Actually I miscalculated the odds. If you had to pass a prelim test the odds would be as stated for these 2 rounds. If you passed this test then went onto the main event you would have 2 more rounds - which would make a total of 4 rounds (combining the 2 tests).

So, your 1 in 200 odds would become more like 1 in 20,000. These are pretty good odds for the house - something like calling the correct number on a roulette wheel 4 times in a row.

[Oualawouzou]

If you had to pass a prelim test the odds would be as stated for these 2 rounds. If you passed this test then went onto the main event you would have 2 more rounds - which would make a total of 4 rounds (combining the 2 tests).


Just FYI, the JREF considers the preliminary test and the formal test as two separate events. The rule most routinely quoted (though I'm not sure if it is official) is that the preliminary test must beat a 1 in 1,000 odds, and the formal test must beat a 1 in 10,000 odds.

Also, remember that the JREF will not test you unless you have either an established media presence or affidavits from professionals stating they have witnessed your abilities first-hand and believe you are the real deal. Hence why you should test yourself first to make sure you actually have the abilities you think you have.

[Pantaz]

Just FYI, the JREF considers the preliminary test and the formal test as two separate events. The rule most routinely quoted (though I'm not sure if it is official) is that the preliminary test must beat a 1 in 1,000 odds, and the formal test must beat a 1 in 10,000 odds. ...

The last time this came up, the official word (IIRC) was that there is no requirement that an agreed upon protocol meet any specific calculated odds.

[Robert Oz]

No tests ever done.


Your claim sounds very interesting. However, you should test yourself first. If you are intending to apply for the MDC based on what you think you might be able to do instead of what you know you can do, there is a very good chance that you will be wasting everyone's time, including your own.

Your claim is definitely something you can test on your own first and we can certainly help ensure that you conduct the test properly (e.g. it MUST be double-blind).

Are you willing to test yourself first, before applying for the MDC?

Best of luck.

[twob]

Your claim sounds very interesting. However, you should test yourself first. If you are intending to apply for the MDC based on what you think you might be able to do instead of what you know you can do, there is a very good chance that you will be wasting everyone's time, including your own.

Your claim is definitely something you can test on your own first and we can certainly help ensure that you conduct the test properly (e.g. it MUST be double-blind).

Are you willing to test yourself first, before applying for the MDC?

Best of luck.

It seems so much more dramatic to just see if I am "allowed" to do it. Oh how I like showing off sometimes! I figure if Lahiri Mahasaya can hold a chugging train in place for a while I should be able to do something as simple as what I have proposed. Since the magic of my proposal is not magic at all just undiscovered truths available to anyone who practices maybe I should take your advice and go about this methodically.

I could get an old deck of cards and make a "mini" of the test - ie put pictures on cards, mix them up, cover them and then see if I can "feel" and "see" the pink emanations coming from the one particular card. I should be able to get it every time.

If not I could retune myself until I can. Then I could move onto "bigger" tests. Oh, what a waste of one's earned graces to be plotting and working to do something so silly - for things that are more harmful to oneself then helpful, really - fame and fortune - unfortunes in this world.

A soul would have to have some powerful forces behind them to topple such a pile of accumulated worldly mass karma of others. I am pretty sure I would fail.

Since my skills come from meditational practices as taught from India I could just practice this daily to open up the pathways in my brain and to heighten my intuition for this particular task. Sounds like a lot of work to accumulate loss - $1 million or not!

[wardenclyffe]

twob,

I don't understand what you are saying now. Are you saying that you cannot do this, but you think that if you applied yourself through meditation that you think you could develop the skill, or are you saying that you can do it now, but not reliably? Or are you saying that you can reliably do this? I'm a little confused by your last post.

Thanks,
Ward

[NobbyNobbs]

twob,
Can you do this if the pictures are in envelopes? It is very possible JREF will want this as part of the protocol to avoid any distinguishing marks on the back of the pictures. Probably the best way to do this is to have someone else place the images in the envelopes and leave the room by a different door than you will enter. Also, does it have to be 12 in a circle? This reminds me of a clock, which makes me uneasy as it makes it simpler for an accomplice to pass a hint.

[Oualawouzou]

I could get an old deck of cards and make a "mini" of the test - ie put pictures on cards, mix them up, cover them and then see if I can "feel" and "see" the pink emanations coming from the one particular card. I should be able to get it every time.

It'd be important, when running such a test, that *you* do not know in advance where the good card is. In other words, have someone else mix them up and cover them up.

Please do run this test and let us know how it went.

[Cuddles]

It seems so much more dramatic to just see if I am "allowed" to do it.

Have you tried reading the rules (http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/1m-challenge/challenge-application.html)? They tell you exactly what is required in order to be eligible for the challenge. There's no point making vague claims on this forum, the only way for you to apply is to read the rules and send in application to the JREF. We can try to help you come up with an acceptable test protocol, but no-one here can give you any definitive answers.

[theprestige]

It seems so much more dramatic to just see if I am "allowed" to do it.
Why is drama important?

Oh how I like showing off sometimes!
Good news! The Challenge is intended for you to show off any ability you may have!

I figure if Lahiri Mahasaya can hold a chugging train in place for a while
Seems like a pretty big "if" to me. Have you ever actually seen the Guru do this?

I should be able to do something as simple as what I have proposed. Since the magic of my proposal is not magic at all just undiscovered truths available to anyone who practices maybe I should take your advice and go about this methodically.
Should be able to do? Why not simply can do?

Methodically is nice. But probably the best advice, and the first step, is to go about this at all. As in, actually do it.

I could get an old deck of cards and make a "mini" of the test - ie put pictures on cards, mix them up, cover them and then see if I can "feel" and "see" the pink emanations coming from the one particular card. I should be able to get it every time.
So do it.

[/QUOTE]If not I could retune myself until I can.[/QUOTE]
You haven't even done it yet, and you're already confident that if it turns out you can't do it, you have a method for doing it anyway?

Then I could move onto "bigger" tests.
Actually, I would recommend moving on to the same "small" test, only in front of witnesses.

Oh, what a waste of one's earned graces to be plotting and working to do something so silly - for things that are more harmful to oneself then helpful, really - fame and fortune - unfortunes in this world.
It's not a waste at all. Even if you fail, you will have learned something valuable about yourself and the world around you. The only waste is refusing to learn.

And it's not silly, either. If you can consistently do what you claim, and you beat Randi's Challenge by doing it, you will be unique in the history of the world. Indeed, you will have proven with science something that was previously known only through myth, superstition, and fraud. You would also have a million dollars. This is not silly at all.

A soul would have to have some powerful forces behind them to topple such a pile of accumulated worldly mass karma of others. I am pretty sure I would fail.
If you say so. If it makes you feel any better, you would not be the first.

Since my skills come from meditational practices as taught from India I could just practice this daily to open up the pathways in my brain and to heighten my intuition for this particular task. Sounds like a lot of work to accumulate loss - $1 million or not!
What skills? The skills you haven't tested yet? And shouldn't you be practicing the skills you've been taught every day anyway?

I mean, it sounds like you've just talked yourself out of demonstrating even to yourself that you are a good student who understands the material and can apply it in any useful or even measurable way.

But no worries: If you're satisfied with your training, and you are pleased with your progress and the results of your efforts, then carry on. There's nothing wrong with choosing not to take the Challenge. Money isn't everything. As long as you're not lying to others or to yourself, you will be fine.

[twob]

I am still kind of peicing this challenge together. But I would like to make 2 changes to it. I will explain the logic of these changes at a later date if it comes to that. Thanks for all of the advice.

Change 1 - in the second round instead of having a picture of Christ I would like to have a picture of the Little Flower of Christ, St. Teresa - a nun.

Change 2 - Instead of this challenge being for a million dollars if I participate I will do it for one quarter. That is, if I pass the test(s) my winnings are one quarter.

I am signing out for now. I will chyme in after a few months. If I decline to practice this exercise I will tell you this, too (after a few months). out, twob

[Czarcasm]

out, twobTruer words have never been spoken.

[Rasmus]

I am still kind of peicing this challenge together. But I would like to make 2 changes to it. I will explain the logic of these changes at a later date if it comes to that. Thanks for all of the advice.

Change 1 - in the second round instead of having a picture of Christ I would like to have a picture of the Little Flower of Christ, St. Teresa - a nun.

I don't see any issue with that. You will most likely still need a third round, though.

Change 2 - Instead of this challenge being for a million dollars if I participate I will do it for one quarter. That is, if I pass the test(s) my winnings are one quarter.

Can I have the rest of the money if you win?

I am signing out for now. I will chyme in after a few months. If I decline to practice this exercise I will tell you this, too (after a few months). out, twob

Good luck. Listen to the suggestions of people here and do a fair test of your own abilities.

[IMST]

No one here cares about the content of the photos. At all. (assuming they can't be confused for each other)

Read the rules of the challenge. Get yourself qualified if you think you can actually do this. If you have, or can develop, some ability like this the requirements should be trivial to develop.

And since you're making such a big show about not caring about the money, go win the money and determine what good can be done in the world for $1M so you don't have to lower yourself to receiving it. I'd be happy to suggest a few charities if it comes to it.

[twob]

Well, I said I would post after a few months and it has been a few months now so here goes.

I now realize I am lucky enough to have everything. Why play games? It is not my job to enlighten you all. I have fought so hard and been given so much. And for me to just cultivate God so you can conduct your experiment so maybe you might remotely believe that there is a little more then what is right in front of your faces?

I have learned my lesson. The general masses, especially in the West, cultivate much ignorance and reinforce it as intelligence. Intellect without real knowledge- knowing - isn't much. It is not your fault if you don't know any better. So, I am sorry. I will help those who are helping themselves.

Mr. Randi what have you accomplished in this lifetime? The seminars, the speeches, the people? Good for you. Everything is before you if you only had the courage to know this. You are an old man now and you have gathered all of these fine nothings to yourself. Don't worry, when you shed the physical form (soon) and pass over to the next place you will forget how silly you were as James Randi.

And some day you will wake from your sleep as I have been fortunate enough to do. And someday when all of the business, crowds, seminars, and other trivia are swept aside maybe God will grant you the greatest gift and put one before you who can actually give you real content and teach you how to defend "yourself" in fact while in a body while in this plane. And next time that someone might be me - and somehow I will remember your previous silliness but you will not. Over and out.

[Madalch]

I now realize I am lucky enough to have everything. Why play games? It is not my job to enlighten you all. I have fought so hard and been given so much. And for me to just cultivate God so you can conduct your experiment so maybe you might remotely believe that there is a little more then what is right in front of your faces?

Translation: I couldn't do it well enough to prove anything, but I'm still sure I'm right.

[JohnnyG]

Disregard this post.

[IMST]

Pathetic.

1. You're making all kinds of claims about what you feel is important stuff and abilities. Yet you can't be bothered to show us. What a worthless prophet you are.
2. Randi does not read the forums and will probably never see your impotent whinging about his accomplishments. He's done plenty, from being a top stage magician to being one of the strongest voices for critical thinking in the English speaking world, yet you think you can tear down his many accomplishments.

Dude, put up or shut up. Looks like you're taking option 2, as this reads like a taking your ball and going home kind of post.

[Ladewig]

Well, I said I would post after a few months and it has been a few months now so here goes.

I now realize I am lucky enough to have everything. Why play games?

Who do you think is playing games. The JREF staff and the members posting in this board (two very different groups) are not playing games. We have been trying to help you understand how you could use your supernatural power to win one million dollars.



It is not my job to enlighten you all. I have fought so hard and been given so much. And for me to just cultivate God so you can conduct your experiment so maybe you might remotely believe that there is a little more then what is right in front of your faces?

I have learned my lesson. The general masses, especially in the West, cultivate much ignorance and reinforce it as intelligence. Intellect without real knowledge- knowing - isn't much. It is not your fault if you don't know any better. So, I am sorry. I will help those who are helping themselves.

Again, there seems to be some confusion on your part. The purpose of the MDC is not to enlighten people in the West. The purpose of the MDC is to allow claimants to perform their claimed abilities under controlled conditions.

You describe your power as something that is incredibly easy for you - something that is not demanding or draining in any way. We are at a loss as to why you would not want to go through the preliminary challenge and the final challenge.

Mr. Randi what have you accomplished in this lifetime? The seminars, the speeches, the people? Good for you. Everything is before you if you only had the courage to know this. You are an old man now and you have gathered all of these fine nothings to yourself. Don't worry, when you shed the physical form (soon) and pass over to the next place you will forget how silly you were as James Randi.

And some day you will wake from your sleep as I have been fortunate enough to do. And someday when all of the business, crowds, seminars, and other trivia are swept aside maybe God will grant you the greatest gift and put one before you who can actually give you real content and teach you how to defend "yourself" in fact while in a body while in this plane. And next time that someone might be me - and somehow I will remember your previous silliness but you will not. Over and out.

Mr, Randi has accomplished a great deal. He has exposed frauds, con artists, thieves, liars, and cheats. Society is, without a scintilla of doubt, much better off for Mr. Randi's actions. He is very much an asset to the modern world. Spending a lifetime protecting the innocent from those who would prey upon them makes him far more valuable than the average priest, shaman or guru.

.............................

If you have a superpower then show it. If you don't want to show it then quit bragging about it on this board.

[Czarcasm]

Some people just don't get "Put up, or shut up."

[JohnnyG]

The general masses, especially in the West, cultivate much ignorance and reinforce it as intelligence. Intellect without real knowledge- knowing - isn't much. It is not your fault if you don't know any better. So, I am sorry. I will help those who are helping themselves.

If you were to be the first to win the MDC, magine how much it would do to promote eastern mysticism as the one true path. Are you being selfish by intentionally withholding the potential for spritiual awakening from the deluded masses? Or have you tried it and failed? Ignorant inquiring minds would like to know.

[Lamuella]

it's strange to see someone who represents declining a challenge as strength.

Take part or don't take part, it's entirely your choice. It doesn't make you strong to refuse to participate, though.

[twob]

it's strange to see someone who represents declining a challenge as strength.

Take part or don't take part, it's entirely your choice. It doesn't make you strong to refuse to participate, though.

Yes, that is true on one hand. But if one is acting from their ego in order to show off more than normal abilities it is a sign of delusion, and it does make you strong to recognize this weakness within yourself and cast it aside.

Silly supernatural abilities mean zero and should in general be avoided. The goal is to return to your source. The only way one like me would be allowed to attempt the MDC thesis is if internal allowedness occurred. And my Gurus generally stand clear of the masses. Why give something away to those who haven't struggled mightally? Especially when there are souls in bodies struggling mightally for self realization. However, they are attracted to truth seekers and I sense alot of these here in your group.

It works like that - those who have skills that could conquer your MDC challenge don't advertise it and don't really care. And those whom have little realization are screaming there heads off about it. And your site/orginization is catering to this latter crowd. I am still to ego conscious to topple the MDC.

[Weak Kitten]

So basically you made the common mistake of thinking that enlightenment gives people super powers, then your teacher beat you about the head with the clue stick.

I love the clue stick, I think it's hilarious that the Zen actually call it that. The fact is that enlightenment does not give you what people commonly think of as supernatural abilities. That's just silly people who are in a rush and don't take the time to really understand things. The only thing you get from enlightenment is enlightenment.

[Dumb All Over]

Change 2 - Instead of this challenge being for a million dollars if I participate I will do it for one quarter. That is, if I pass the test(s) my winnings are one quarter.

What do you mean exactly by the term "one quarter"?

Do you mean a quarter of one million dollars or do you mean the U.S. minted coin we call a quarter that equals twenty-five cents? Or do you mean something else entirely?

[Czarcasm]

What do you mean exactly by the term "one quarter"?

Do you mean a quarter of one million dollars or do you mean the U.S. minted coin we call a quarter that equals twenty-five cents? Or do you mean something else entirely?I believe twob believes that if he submits a list of petty changes that he knows won't be accepted he can blame the "uncooperative" MDC for the reason he isn't taking the test.

[Dumb All Over]

Why give something away to those who haven't struggled mightally?
Do you count yourself as among those who have struggled mightily, twod. If so, would you please describe your mighty struggle.

Thanks,
DAO

[oody]

1)How do you detect the picture? I don't know if I will be able to do this. But now, when I look at a picture of this saint I see pink emanations (love) coming from it. If this can be done it is by the development of one's spiritual eye (Christ - 'when thy eye be single the body will be full of light'). Anyway I am intuiting that I will see these pink vibrations coming from this picture covered or not (same with Christ). No magic here only the science of our true natures being developed and not ignored.

Can you tell us whether you were able to see the pink vibrations when the picture was covered?

[Ladewig]

Yes, that is true on one hand. But if one is acting from their ego in order to show off more than normal abilities it is a sign of delusion, and it does make you strong to recognize this weakness within yourself and cast it aside.

Silly supernatural abilities mean zero and should in general be avoided. The goal is to return to your source. The only way one like me would be allowed to attempt the MDC thesis is if internal allowedness occurred. And my Gurus generally stand clear of the masses. Why give something away to those who haven't struggled mightally? Especially when there are souls in bodies struggling mightally for self realization. However, they are attracted to truth seekers and I sense alot of these here in your group.

It works like that - those who have skills that could conquer your MDC challenge don't advertise it and don't really care. And those whom have little realization are screaming there heads off about it. And your site/orginization is catering to this latter crowd. I am still to ego conscious to topple the MDC.

I salute you. You have constructed the perfect MDC post. Nothing is missing and everything is present. Bravo.

[Lamuella]

Yes, that is true on one hand. But if one is acting from their ego in order to show off more than normal abilities it is a sign of delusion, and it does make you strong to recognize this weakness within yourself and cast it aside.


This entire thread was acting on ego.

"woo, look at me, I have magic powers and I'm going to take this challenge, except I'm not!"

You have an exceptionally high opinion of yourself to even make this thread.

[twob]

Can you tell us whether you were able to see the pink vibrations when the picture was covered?

I have not tried. This challenge would also be an internal challenge for me. Am I as a spiritual aspirant allowed to show off in public? If I am I am not going to sweat the details. It is really not me doing this anyway.

WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT IS TAKING THE BODY INTO A STATE OF UNION (ECSTACY) WITH ONE'S CREATOR.

In the methodical science of yoga this is called samadhi. Each of us are divinely constructed and it is our choice if we choose to know and live this. India has perfected the Divine science of reality in fact and conquering this plane while the soul is in the body.

This science is massive and goes back a very long ways. All I can say - unbelievable, unbelievable, unbelievable! I truly have everything though you would probably wouldn't think much of me if you met me in person.

[maggot9779]

But if one is acting from their ego in order to show off more than normal abilities it is a sign of delusion

It seems so much more dramatic to just see if I am "allowed" to do it. Oh how I like showing off sometimes!

Mhmm.

The amount of dishonesty I see from people that claim they can do stuff like this is staggering.

[Czarcasm]

All I can say - unbelievable, unbelievable, unbelievable!What can I say? When you're right, you're right!

[oody]

Would you agree that spots on a piece of cardboard that happen to approximate an image of St. Theresa emanate no pink vibrations, when separated from your ego?

[learner]

I have not tried. This challenge would also be an internal challenge for me. Am I as a spiritual aspirant allowed to show off in public? If I am I am not going to sweat the details. It is really not me doing this anyway.

WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT IS TAKING THE BODY INTO A STATE OF UNION (ECSTACY) WITH ONE'S CREATOR.

In the methodical science of yoga this is called samadhi. Each of us are divinely constructed and it is our choice if we choose to know and live this. India has perfected the Divine science of reality in fact and conquering this plane while the soul is in the body.

This science is massive and goes back a very long ways. All I can say - unbelievable, unbelievable, unbelievable! I truly have everything though you would probably wouldn't think much of me if you met me in person.

Twob.
A bit of valuable advise from my ever so wise Mum...Grow up and stop being silly.
This advise is free and more valuable than any of the nonsense you have posted here.

[sadhatter]

" I have a superpower"

"show us"

"I don't have to prove anything to you."

" Then why did you come in here claiming a superpower?"

" i'm enlightened."

The same old stale story, again and again.

[twob]

" I have a superpower"

"show us"

"I don't have to prove anything to you."

" Then why did you come in here claiming a superpower?"

" i'm enlightened."

The same old stale story, again and again.

Here it is - why I think I may be the one to do the MDC. Well, I was a pretty normal guy - age 33 - 2 events changed life,

1) Ma given death sentence (leukemia)

2) Fell in love 1st time with all my heart mind and soul.

Anyway, when one gets rattled (disease, sickeness, war, etc...) one begins to really question things - who am I? what is this world, really? etc...

This all happened to me. Instinctively I turned to things within myself that were sitting there but latent. I figured I would answer these big questions once and for all, and I would use myself as my lab rat - "prove it to me or stand aside!"

I began my quest at age 33. I tried various paths and they seemed ok but not right. I thought I would look into Buddhism. I was going to attend a gathering but it was cancelled so I went to a different gathering.

It was an orginization called Self Realization Fellowship (SRF). And it was founded by a man from India in 1920. Anyway his dissemination was to bring the science of spirituality to the west. On some internal level I "felt" I had found my home. Spiritual mathmatics whereby I could do my own investigation - if you haven't noticed I am skeptical by nature.

As lab rat I decided to give it a decent try. I had just graduated (again) from college with a few science degrees but decided to not be distracted by "wine, women, and gold." This means materialism, sex and fame I guess. The sex part was hard because I was somewhat overly attracted to the opposite sex, and the other two weren't as hard. So I took a humble substinance job and went about my meditational practices. This stretched into 3 years.

I went to 2-3 temple gatherings a week and meditated sincerely using techniques I had been given - what better way to prove something then to sincerely try it. Yes, I was the guy in Public Speaking holding up a chart of a human DNA and a chimp DNA to prove evolution (which I still believe).

(to be continued)

[Paul2]

if you haven't noticed I am skeptical by nature.

You don't strike me as skeptical by nature, at least not yet.

[wardenclyffe]

I honestly look forward to the rest of the story.

Ward

[mike3]

Yes, that is true on one hand. But if one is acting from their ego in order to show off more than normal abilities it is a sign of delusion, and it does make you strong to recognize this weakness within yourself and cast it aside.


Then don't. Act to instead selflessly help to advance the common knowledge of humanity. If you really think you've got something here, then prove it: do what has been recommended here, sign up for the MDC, do it to help advance Humanity's collective understanding and knowledge of the universe and themselves, win the money, and then give it all away to charity. I.e. don't do it to "show off" but to help humanity.

Not holding my breath, though.

[twob]

Then don't. Act to instead selflessly help to advance the common knowledge of humanity. If you really think you've got something here, then prove it: do what has been recommended here, sign up for the MDC, do it to help advance Humanity's collective understanding and knowledge of the universe and themselves, win the money, and then give it all away to charity. I.e. don't do it to "show off" but to help humanity.

Not holding my breath, though.

Mike3,

Things just don't work like this. The very nature of this plane is to seperate those who can stand up and recognize the more real hidden nature of things from those who are idling - looking for free blinding 100% proof. You do not really know what it means for one to come out into the open - karmically.

And many who profess "God" are idling. And some who don't profess "God" are actually working along quite well, like James Randi. He is recognizing the "nots" right now (in this lifetime) so someday he can receive an "is". This takes courage, and is a step in the right direction.

Because you are in the world and you think this is all there is you are focused on things within your scope. But in the very big picture there is much more. And in this other real reality that some day you must discover there are bigger rules then the ones you are living by. Who is greater he who is a king in this make believe world or he who conquers himself from within, in fact?

Suffering - use the money to help relieve others suffering? Use your God-given ability to CLIMB up your spine and reach into heaven while you are incased in the bodily temple. You have greatly under estimated exactly who you are. There is no suffering really and you are really going no where when you move from your physical temple into another more subtle one (death). You are still there waiting to make the big discovery and to take the little steps into a "bigger" you.

It has been done by others (mastering themselves in this plane in terms of who they really are), and when the time is ripe each of us must step up and fight our way home.

Through those senses you will suffer so go ahead see if you can reach beyond them. Impossible, "we are just beasts, and when we die there is nothing else." True service is waking up and moving yourself towards whom you really are. And if by some means this occurs, like me you will then start seeking in ernest. Next, you will start getting a little knowledge. And you will start to realize how vulnerable you really are. This will scare you and you will really start trying to secure yourself here.

The ego is fine - live there, get pats on your back. Good works, bad works it is all delusion. Give me real content damn it! And this I finally have. If I am the one to attempt and conquer the MDC then it will have to play out regardless of me. And I agree with you - I am not holding my breath.

[Czarcasm]

Here it is - why I think I may be the one to do the MDC. Well, I was a pretty normal guy - age 33 - 2 events changed life,

1) Ma given death sentence (leukemia)

2) Fell in love 1st time with all my heart mind and soul.

Anyway, when one gets rattled (disease, sickeness, war, etc...) one begins to really question things - who am I? what is this world, really? etc...

This all happened to me. Instinctively I turned to things within myself that were sitting there but latent. I figured I would answer these big questions once and for all, and I would use myself as my lab rat - "prove it to me or stand aside!"

I began my quest at age 33. I tried various paths and they seemed ok but not right. I thought I would look into Buddhism. I was going to attend a gathering but it was cancelled so I went to a different gathering.

It was an orginization called Self Realization Fellowship (SRF). And it was founded by a man from India in 1920. Anyway his dissemination was to bring the science of spirituality to the west. On some internal level I "felt" I had found my home. Spiritual mathmatics whereby I could do my own investigation - if you haven't noticed I am skeptical by nature.

As lab rat I decided to give it a decent try. I had just graduated (again) from college with a few science degrees but decided to not be distracted by "wine, women, and gold." This means materialism, sex and fame I guess. The sex part was hard because I was somewhat overly attracted to the opposite sex, and the other two weren't as hard. So I took a humble substinance job and went about my meditational practices. This stretched into 3 years.

I went to 2-3 temple gatherings a week and meditated sincerely using techniques I had been given - what better way to prove something then to sincerely try it. Yes, I was the guy in Public Speaking holding up a chart of a human DNA and a chimp DNA to prove evolution (which I still believe).

(to be continued)This is the MDC you're going for, not Queen For A Day. Your sob story really doesn't matter. What you have been trained in and who train you really doesn't matter. How the world works really doesn't matter.

In one sentence, please tell us what you want to do to win the MDC.

[Ladewig]

Mike3,

Things just don't work like this. The very nature of this plane is to seperate those who can stand up and recognize the more real hidden nature of things from those who are idling - looking for free blinding 100% proof. You do not really know what it means for one to come out into the open - karmically.

And many who profess "God" are idling. And some who don't profess "God" are actually working along quite well, like James Randi. He is recognizing the "nots" right now (in this lifetime) so someday he can receive an "is". This takes courage, and is a step in the right direction.

Because you are in the world and you think this is all there is you are focused on things within your scope. But in the very big picture there is much more. And in this other real reality that some day you must discover there are bigger rules then the ones you are living by. Who is greater he who is a king in this make believe world or he who conquers himself from within, in fact?

Suffering - use the money to help relieve others suffering? Use your God-given ability to CLIMB up your spine and reach into heaven while you are incased in the bodily temple. You have greatly under estimated exactly who you are. There is no suffering really and you are really going no where when you move from your physical temple into another more subtle one (death). You are still there waiting to make the big discovery and to take the little steps into a "bigger" you.

It has been done by others (mastering themselves in this plane in terms of who they really are), and when the time is ripe each of us must step up and fight our way home.

Through those senses you will suffer so go ahead see if you can reach beyond them. Impossible, "we are just beasts, and when we die there is nothing else." True service is waking up and moving yourself towards whom you really are. And if by some means this occurs, like me you will then start seeking in ernest. Next, you will start getting a little knowledge. And you will start to realize how vulnerable you really are. This will scare you and you will really start trying to secure yourself here.

The ego is fine - live there, get pats on your back. Good works, bad works it is all delusion. Give me real content damn it! And this I finally have. If I am the one to attempt and conquer the MDC then it will have to play out regardless of me. And I agree with you - I am not holding my breath.


This excuse post is even more comprehensive than the last excuse post. Are you reading old JREF threads in order to copy the exact reasons "enlightened" people cannot partake in any part of the MDC?

Let's try something simpler. TEST YOURSELF. Have someone cover up a variety of pictures and leave the room. Then you walk in and look for the one with the magical aura. Without a blinded experiment every last thing that you have described is more imagination than reality. Test yourself.

_________________________________
ETA:
by "wine, women, and gold." This means materialism, sex and fame I guess.

wine = fame ?

[oody]

If I am the one to attempt and conquer the MDC then it will have to play out regardless of me. And I agree with you - I am not holding my breath.
ePQcRspK5z8

[Ladewig]

Suffering - use the money to help relieve others suffering? Use your God-given ability to CLIMB up your spine and reach into heaven while you are encased in the bodily temple. You have greatly under estimated exactly who you are. There is no suffering really and you are really going no where when you move from your physical temple into another more subtle one (death). You are still there waiting to make the big discovery and to take the little steps into a "bigger" you.

I thought I could let this post slide, but I cannot. There is no suffering? There is no suffering? I've got a flash for you, Gordon - there is suffering. There are hundreds of thousands of people starving to death right now. It is not an illusion that they have created in their lives. It is not an unenlightened attitude. It is not merely a mild assault on one's bodily temple. It is not preparation for a future life. It is not consequences for a past life. It is simply suffering. The way to help them is not to tell them that suffering doesn't exist and if they meditate hard enough they will feel better.

If you have a superpower to show us, then show us. If you do not then feel free to stick around and watch or to discuss things related to skepticism. But we have enough door-to-door BS salesmen knocking at the JREF; we're not buying what you are peddling.

[Dumb All Over]

twob, it sounds as though you have absolutely no intention of applying for the Million Dollar Challenge. May I remind you that this section of the forum is reserved for serious claimants. You are not a serious claimant and should not have started this thread within this section of the forums. Your thread more properly belongs in the General Skepticism and the Paranormal section. So, would you please consider doing the right thing. Please contact a moderator and request that your thread here be moved to the more appropriate section.

Thanks,
DAO

[Ladewig]

twob, it sounds as though you have absolutely no intention of applying for the Million Dollar Challenge. May I remind you that this section of the forum is reserved for serious claimants. You are not a serious claimant and should not have started this thread within this section of the forums. Your thread more properly belongs in the General Skepticism and the Paranormal section. So, would you please consider doing the right thing. Please contact a moderator and request that your thread here be moved to the more appropriate section.

Thanks,
DAO


Obviously, the moderators will make the final decision, but I would argue that the thread is not in the wrong place. It is not in the "Challenge Applications" sub-forum, it is in the "MDC" sub forum, which includes numerous threads from non-applicants. I would say that a thread about I-have-an-awesome-superpower-but-won't-display-it-to-the-MDC-folks fits perfectly in this sub-forum.


ETA: but it also fits perfectly in "General Skepticism" as well. Inertia being what it is, I say leave it here.

[Dumb All Over]

Ladewig, historically and for the most part, this section has been reserved for real applicants wishing to discuss viable protocols. Yes, some threads here have swayed from that generality, but others have been moved for the reasons expressed in my previous post.

If twob isn't here to discuss a viable protocol and isn't the least interested in applying for the Challenge, then why would he/she be posting this stuff within this sub-forum? For me, twob's posts read as nothing more than spam.

But, as you have rightly expressed, the Mods will have the final say. And for the reasons you state, it is not worth my energy to formally complain to them.

[Ladewig]

I do not want this reply to be interpreted as insolent or argumentative. I fundamentally agree with your last post. I do, however think there is a slight difference in this thread.

There is no shortage of threads that start by saying, I have superpowers - can I have a million dollars now. To which the board says, this is the type of stuff you'll have to do to apply and to perform. To which the OPers says, oh I don't want to do that, but let me use this thread to explain how super my superpowers are. Those threads should be moved.

This thread is: I have superpowers - can I have a million dollars now. To which the board says, this is the type of stuff you'll have to do to apply and to perform. To which the OPer has said, here are my reasons for no applying - wait, here are some more reasons I won't apply - oh, thanks for asking questions, let me give you more reasons why I have this superpower but cannot/will not/should not/could not apply. So the OPer is still talking about the MDC albeit indirectly.


ETA: I just realized that neither one of us may get what we want. This thread could end up in AAH.


MORE ETA: I just realized that what this board really needs is a sub-forum called "Spam, Cranks, Trolls, and Other People Not Worth Taking Seriously." This thread would fit perfectly there.

[SkepticScott]

i just realized that what this board really needs is a sub-forum called "spam, cranks, trolls, and other people not worth taking seriously." this thread would fit perfectly there.rotfl!

[Dumb All Over]

I just realized that what this board really needs is a sub-forum called "Spam, Cranks, Trolls, and Other People Not Worth Taking Seriously."
I thought we already had one subtitled the 9-11 Conspiracy Forum.

[William Smith]

I thought we already had one subtitled the 9-11 Conspiracy Forum.

It is called "Milky Way".

[sadhatter]

Here it is - why I think I may be the one to do the MDC. Well, I was a pretty normal guy - age 33 - 2 events changed life,

1) Ma given death sentence (leukemia)

2) Fell in love 1st time with all my heart mind and soul.

Anyway, when one gets rattled (disease, sickeness, war, etc...) one begins to really question things - who am I? what is this world, really? etc...

This all happened to me. Instinctively I turned to things within myself that were sitting there but latent. I figured I would answer these big questions once and for all, and I would use myself as my lab rat - "prove it to me or stand aside!"

I began my quest at age 33. I tried various paths and they seemed ok but not right. I thought I would look into Buddhism. I was going to attend a gathering but it was cancelled so I went to a different gathering.

It was an orginization called Self Realization Fellowship (SRF). And it was founded by a man from India in 1920. Anyway his dissemination was to bring the science of spirituality to the west. On some internal level I "felt" I had found my home. Spiritual mathmatics whereby I could do my own investigation - if you haven't noticed I am skeptical by nature.

As lab rat I decided to give it a decent try. I had just graduated (again) from college with a few science degrees but decided to not be distracted by "wine, women, and gold." This means materialism, sex and fame I guess. The sex part was hard because I was somewhat overly attracted to the opposite sex, and the other two weren't as hard. So I took a humble substinance job and went about my meditational practices. This stretched into 3 years.

I went to 2-3 temple gatherings a week and meditated sincerely using techniques I had been given - what better way to prove something then to sincerely try it. Yes, I was the guy in Public Speaking holding up a chart of a human DNA and a chimp DNA to prove evolution (which I still believe).

(to be continued)

Put up or shut up please, not interested in your personal anecdotes, only you passing or failing the test and how you intend to do that. If you want to tell personal anecdotes, i suggest starting a blog.

[Pixel42]

Things just don't work like this. The very nature of this plane is to seperate those who can stand up and recognize the more real hidden nature of things from those who are idling - looking for free blinding 100% proof. You do not really know what it means for one to come out into the open - karmically.
Why is it that people who have never bothered to learn how to think critically are so convinced that their thought processes are superior to those of people who have?

Convincing yourself of the truth of ideas for which there is not a shred of evidence is easy, it seems to be humanity's default state. Learning how to evaluate evidence and test your beliefs against reality in ways which compensate for your own cognitive biases is much harder and takes a great deal of time and effort. Yet people who've wasted years contemplating their own navels instead of investigating the world around them dismiss the hard won knowledge and understanding obtained by generations of critical thinkers (usually whilst taking full advantage of their discoveries) and think themselves the more enlightened.

[Lamuella]

it's so interesting to me that so many of these incredible powers that people claim to have manifest themselves in a way that's absolutely indistinguishable from not having a power at all.

[Ladewig]

Why is it that people who have never bothered to learn how to think critically are so convinced that their thought processes are superior to those of people who have?

Convincing yourself of the truth of ideas for which there is not a shred of evidence is easy, it seems to be humanity's default state. Learning how to evaluate evidence and test your beliefs against reality in ways which compensate for your own cognitive biases is much harder and takes a great deal of time and effort. Yet people who've wasted years contemplating their own navels instead of investigating the world around them dismiss the hard won knowledge and understanding obtained by generations of critical thinkers (usually whilst taking full advantage of their discoveries) and think themselves the more enlightened.

seconded

[twob]

Here it is - why I think I may be the one to do the MDC. Well, I was a pretty normal guy - age 33 - 2 events changed life,

1) Ma given death sentence (leukemia)

2) Fell in love 1st time with all my heart mind and soul.

Anyway, when one gets rattled (disease, sickeness, war, etc...) one begins to really question things - who am I? what is this world, really? etc...

This all happened to me. Instinctively I turned to things within myself that were sitting there but latent. I figured I would answer these big questions once and for all, and I would use myself as my lab rat - "prove it to me or stand aside!"

I began my quest at age 33. I tried various paths and they seemed ok but not right. I thought I would look into Buddhism. I was going to attend a gathering but it was cancelled so I went to a different gathering.

It was an orginization called Self Realization Fellowship (SRF). And it was founded by a man from India in 1920. Anyway his dissemination was to bring the science of spirituality to the west. On some internal level I "felt" I had found my home. Spiritual mathmatics whereby I could do my own investigation - if you haven't noticed I am skeptical by nature.

As lab rat I decided to give it a decent try. I had just graduated (again) from college with a few science degrees but decided to not be distracted by "wine, women, and gold." This means materialism, sex and fame I guess. The sex part was hard because I was somewhat overly attracted to the opposite sex, and the other two weren't as hard. So I took a humble substinance job and went about my meditational practices. This stretched into 3 years.

I went to 2-3 temple gatherings a week and meditated sincerely using techniques I had been given - what better way to prove something then to sincerely try it. Yes, I was the guy in Public Speaking holding up a chart of a human DNA and a chimp DNA to prove evolution (which I still believe).

(to be continued)


(continueing the story)

So I was testing within myself whether there was more to this world then just what there appears to be - flesh and bones, disease, advanced animals, death is all, etc... - you know the run-down. I was a not so religous person. I can remember mysteriously coming down with illnesses on sunday morning when my mom tried to drag me to church. It just seemed like such a ritual of nothing. And the NFL was on.

Anyway, so I am 34-35 and I have no relationship concerns, no career concerns, and no financial concerns because I just have enough for the bare needs. In the vedas and other Indian 'bibles' they describe a sincere aspirant going through a 'honeymoon phase'. This is where they get glimpses of supernatural things/powers. These things started happening - and naturally I was excited. Like what?

I know this won't make alot of sense but here goes. When people are good at meditation and they meditate together it amplifies each person's individual depth (a non linear function). I started having semi ecstatic experiences especially when meditating with certain others. I went to the temple once and there was a guy who was leading the service with whom meditation was made easier.

So I am practicing my disciplines and I think I am getting ecstatic but who knows. So this guy is trying to speak and then sing. And I am able to pull energy up to the top the 7th chackra and expand it and then lessen it. So I am testing things. I've read about this but had never experienced it myself. The poor fellow would be talking or singing and I would increase the energy and he could no longer speak. Then I would lower the energy and he could speak again.

I did this over and over again to make sure this was really happening - and each time the same thing happened - he would try to speak or sing and I would bring the energy up and expand things and he could no longer form words because he was being pulled up into ecstasy. I am somehow transferring this Divine experience. It was funny. First hand proof - we are more then we think we are.

Another thing happened which is the reason for my MDC thesis (thank you finally!). I was using a Honda Passport scooter as my transportation. Gas was about $1.19 per gallon at the time. I taped a back-up quarter under the seat in case I ran out of gas and had no money. This quarter would get me about 20 miles (back home).

So I go to the temple for a special service. This is a service to celebrate one of these Gurus' special days - birthday or mahasamdhi (conscious exit from the body). This service was for the mahasamdhi of Lahiri Mahasaya. He is the one in my challenge whom I said I can "see" pink eminations coming from in a picture.

I am new to these services. The ritual is to offer a flower and a monetary offering at the foot of a large picture. Hmmm... I didn't bring a flower. They had some extras. I checked my wallet - nothing. Sheepishly I went out to my scooter and lifted the seat. I untaped the quarter and hid it in an envelope - how embarassing.

Remember I had worked hard for a few years and was taking the body into minor states of ecstacy already - so anything seemed possible. My turn comes and I lay the flower at this Master's feet and then I quickly lay the envelope down with the quarter in it.

I am swept up in this great energy and I hear these words clearly, "I am grateful for this quarter you have offered to me, and I would rather have this quarter then if it were a million dollars. And you shall see what 'I' can do with a quarter."

(to be continued)

[wardenclyffe]

Again, I look forward to the rest. But you have outlined one very testable claim in this part of the story.

Thanks,
Ward

[Dumb All Over]

(to be continued)
No, no, NO! Please spare us! AAGGHH! :wackyarghh:

[Donn]

I am worried that twob is in real danger.

If you read this twob, please use the chance you gained by joining this forum to start questioning the Self Realization Fellowship.

With all sincerity, your mind may not be your own. This forum can help you challenge yourself.

I did a bit of googling and what I found alerted me. Perhaps some of the links on this page might assist you. What do you think?

http://www.strippingthegurus.com/stgsamplechapters/essentialonlineresources.asp

[Pup]

Why is it that people who have never bothered to learn how to think critically are so convinced that their thought processes are superior to those of people who have?

The Dunning-Kruger effect in action.

[Donn]

Or, and this is important, he is a victim of a destructive group* and mind control.

Steve Hassan:
Destructive mind control takes the 'locus of control' away from an individual. The person is systematically deceived about the beliefs and practices of the person (or group) and manipulated throughout the recruitment process — unable to make informed choices and exert independent judgment. The person's identity is profoundly influenced through a set of social influence techniques and a "new identity" is created — programmed to be dependent on the leader or group ideology. The person can't think for him or herself, but believes otherwise.

Maybe the more advanced posters here could challenge this guy. Go search youtube for Steve Hassan vids. He has some useful info on how to talk to victims of dangerous groups.

* The Self Realization Fellowship. Not much info, but enough to alarm.

[Pixel42]

The Dunning-Kruger effect in action.
That's part of it I'm sure, but I think it's mostly sheer laziness.

Why put in the years of dedication and hard work necessary to become a doctor, when you can pay a few dollars and do a short course to become a reiki practitioner and spend the rest of your life smugly disparaging the work of those who did and are doing hundreds of times more good for their patients than you are for yours?

Why put in the years of study necessary to get to grips with difficult subjects like quantum theory and cosmology in order to understand the genuine insights they give into how the universe works, when for a few dollars you can join the Self Realisation Fellowship and fool yourself that you're not only acquiring insights vouchsafed only to the "enlightened" but paranormal powers as well?

[Czarcasm]

Again, I look forward to the rest. But you have outlined one very testable claim in this part of the story.What-that he hears voices when he tapes quarters to envelopes? I don't know about the MDC, but I know a couple of psychiatrists that would like to examine his claim.

[mike3]

Mike3,

Things just don't work like this. The very nature of this plane is to seperate those who can stand up and recognize the more real hidden nature of things from those who are idling - looking for free blinding 100% proof. You do not really know what it means for one to come out into the open - karmically.

What on earth is the problem with asking for free blinding 100% proof?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?! What on earth is wrong with demanding evidence before believing?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

And many who profess "God" are idling. And some who don't profess "God" are actually working along quite well, like James Randi. He is recognizing the "nots" right now (in this lifetime) so someday he can receive an "is". This takes courage, and is a step in the right direction.

And yet you claim you could be one of those "is"es and yet refuse to step up to him and prove it.

Suffering - use the money to help relieve others suffering? Use your God-given ability to CLIMB up your spine and reach into heaven while you are incased in the bodily temple. You have greatly under estimated exactly who you are. There is no suffering really and you are really going no where when you move from your physical temple into another more subtle one (death). You are still there waiting to make the big discovery and to take the little steps into a "bigger" you.

I thought it was a good thing to help advance humanity. Why do you not think so?

The ego is fine - live there, get pats on your back. Good works, bad works it is all delusion. Give me real content damn it! And this I finally have. If I am the one to attempt and conquer the MDC then it will have to play out regardless of me. And I agree with you - I am not holding my breath.

You said "But if one is acting from their ego in order to show off more than normal abilities it is a sign of delusion". I'm saying you can do it with things other than ego motivating. So why don't you? See why I'm not believing?

[mike3]

twob,

Have you done the test you mentioned here:
http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=7611277&postcount=11

taking this into account:
http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=7612285&postcount=14

and documented it appropriately? If not, why not, especially considering you came up with the test?

[chran]

WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT IS TAKING THE BODY INTO A STATE OF UNION (ECSTACY) WITH ONE'S CREATOR.


I don't think you'll be allowed to masturbate in front of James Randi :covereyes

[Dancing David]

twob,

Hi sceptic, atheist pagan buddhist here. (practitioner of ceremonial magic and shamanism, since 1979)

Um, you are lacking controls and procedures, therefore you have not demonstrated anything, other than perhaps random events or confirmation bias.

So how are you using protocols to eliminate confounding factors?

Good luck

[Dancing David]

WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT IS TAKING THE BODY INTO A STATE OF UNION (ECSTACY) WITH ONE'S CREATOR.


Um a state of perceived ecstasy may exist, yes. that does not imply union with a creator.

[Dancing David]

Why give something away to those who haven't struggled mightally?

Because it is a gift and can be shared, that POV as expressed is a rather narcissistic and controlling position to take.

You do know that the rain falls of the just and the unjust alike?

[Dancing David]

Mike3,

Things just don't work like this.

And you know this how?

I suggest you look into anatta before you go any farther.

The very nature of this plane is to seperate those who can stand up and recognize the more real hidden nature of things from those who are idling

Ah yes , the special privilege of ego

- looking for free blinding 100% proof. You do not really know what it means for one to come out into the open - karmically.

And you know this how?

And many who profess "God" are idling. And some who don't profess "God" are actually working along quite well, like James Randi. He is recognizing the "nots" right now (in this lifetime) so someday he can receive an "is". This takes courage, and is a step in the right direction.

So does acceptance of things as they are.


Because you are in the world and you think this is all there is you are focused on things within your scope. But in the very big picture there is much more.

And you know this how?

And in this other real reality that some day you must discover there are bigger rules then the ones you are living by. Who is greater he who is a king in this make believe world or he who conquers himself from within, in fact?

Um, maybe the better questions is

"Whats for lunch and will there be cookies?"


Suffering - use the money to help relieve others suffering? Use your God-given ability to CLIMB up your spine and reach into heaven while you are incased in the bodily temple. You have greatly under estimated exactly who you are.

And you know this how?

There is no suffering really and you are really going no where when you move from your physical temple into another more subtle one (death). You are still there waiting to make the big discovery and to take the little steps into a "bigger" you.

And you know this how?

It has been done by others (mastering themselves in this plane in terms of who they really are), and when the time is ripe each of us must step up and fight our way home.

And you know this how?

Through those senses you will suffer so go ahead see if you can reach beyond them. Impossible, "we are just beasts, and when we die there is nothing else." True service is waking up and moving yourself towards whom you really are.

And you know this how?

And if by some means this occurs, like me you will then start seeking in ernest. Next, you will start getting a little knowledge. And you will start to realize how vulnerable you really are. This will scare you and you will really start trying to secure yourself here.

And you know this how?


The ego is fine - live there, get pats on your back. Good works, bad works it is all delusion. Give me real content damn it! And this I finally have. If I am the one to attempt and conquer the MDC then it will have to play out regardless of me. And I agree with you - I am not holding my breath.


I think perhaps it is hard to free ones thoughts from the idea of the self, there is a physical body and attendant upon it are the thought, emotions, perceptions and habits.

There is no more.

Anatta

[twob]

I would like to post some pictures and videos. How to do? There is a red X through this link.

[oody]

I would like to post some pictures and videos. How to do? There is a red X through this link.

Once you have 15 posts under your belt (2 more than you have as I write this) you can post links. I guess it helps keep spammers at bay. Until then, you could post link-like text leaving out "http:" or placing strategic spaces and someone can repost as a link. Or you could post a couple of 'throw-away' articles in one of the unserious threads, and that would place you over the threshold of 15. Sorry for the inconvenience.

[Czarcasm]

Do they have anything directly to do with your proposed MDC Challenge?

[twob]

Once you have 15 posts under your belt (2 more than you have as I write this) you can post links. I guess it helps keep spammers at bay. Until then, you could post link-like text leaving out "http:" or placing strategic spaces and someone can repost as a link. Or you could post a couple of 'throw-away' articles in one of the unserious threads, and that would place you over the threshold of 15. Sorry for the inconvenience.

Thanks Oody. I wanted to post a video of a meditational guy.

[Czarcasm]

What has this to do with your MDC challenge proposal?

[twob]

and the picture of this Lahiri Mahasaya the Yogi/Saint whom I have claimed I will be able to see pink eminations coming from whether the picture is covered or not.

[twob]

Is my count high enough yet? An can I have an avatar (Avatar - a soul who has incarnated into the earth plane only for the sake of others - no karma)? Yes this would describe Lahiri Mahasaya. But I am talking about the other kind of avatar.

[oody]

Should be enough for links now. The threshold for an avatar is 50.

To embed youtube videos right into the post, use xxxxxxxxxxx but using "yt" instead of "vt" and where xxxxxxxxx is the 11-character code after "watch=" in the youtube header.

[Ladewig]

twob, it sounds as though you have absolutely no intention of applying for the Million Dollar Challenge. May I remind you that this section of the forum is reserved for serious claimants. You are not a serious claimant and should not have started this thread within this section of the forums. Your thread more properly belongs in the General Skepticism and the Paranormal section. So, would you please consider doing the right thing. Please contact a moderator and request that your thread here be moved to the more appropriate section.

Obviously, the moderators will make the final decision, but I would argue that the thread is not in the wrong place. It is not in the "Challenge Applications" sub-forum, it is in the "MDC" sub forum, which includes numerous threads from non-applicants. I would say that a thread about I-have-an-awesome-superpower-but-won't-display-it-to-the-MDC-folks fits perfectly in this sub-forum.

Dear, Dumb All Over. You were right. I was wrong. I concede the point.

Aroint thee, thread!

.

[twob]

Dear, Dumb All Over. You were right. I was wrong. I concede the point.

Aroint thee, thread!

.

Read my challenge and the story. I have made a proposal. Apparently this God-man, Lahiri Mahasaya is defying time and space (again). Time and space are constructs of the playing field we all find ourselves. But for ones like this A-V-A-T-A-R time and space are like toys a child plays with.

This Lahiri fellow has a rich sense of humor. He would not allow much of anything to be constructed about him and only initiated people who were making attempts even feeble ones at self-realization.

I have stated this God-man has said, "I am grateful for this quarter you have offered to me and 'I' would rather have this quarter from you then if it were a $1,000,000 dolllars. And you shall see what 'I' can do with a quarter."?

Has this Avatar defied time and space and seen your MDC before it has happened - thus the words,".... then if it were a $1,000,000 dollars. And you shall see what 'I' can do with a quarter." You have to be in a pretty phenomenal state of being to be able to something like this - and he is/was.

By 'I' I know he means God. And I believe these strange words are why I/me/twob may be the selected one to concur the MDC. And now you know why I will do it for a quarter and not a million dollars. Through renunciation of wine women and gold I have gotten to where I am. What this Avatar is saying to me really is (my interpretation),

in the world and the West people will forget about the underlying current of everything - which is God. It is our understanding of what God is that gets all clouded and force-fed to people in ignorant forms. You have come into this world and as the course of your life has went along you have chosen things that appear wrong especially to others and now look where it has gotten you.

[oody]

Dear Ladewig and Dumb All Over,

I agree with you. twob has refused even to try a blind test on himself and further stated "I am not holding my breath" in response to a direct question whether he intended to apply, so the discussion belongs in "General Skepticism and The Paranormal". I'm all for continuing the chat in the proper context, until and unless he makes a clear statement reversing his decision not to apply. I have submitted the request.

[Pixel42]

Look, twob, do you think you can demonstrate a paranormal ability that would win you the MDC or don't you?

If you do then state clearly what paranormal ability you think you have and we'll be happy to help you design a suitable test protocol so you can find out if you're right. If not then stop posting in this subforum.

[twob]

Is there a testing place in LA? I will be down there in August of 2012. Proposal (as stated) 12 covered pictures in circle - select one from twelve, remove me, reshuffle (return me), select one from twelve again. This is a 1 in 144 test I believe (12 x 12). I may have to go back and reread earlier posts, it seems like it was harder then this.

If this test is deemed too wimpy it will need to be revised.

[fromdownunder]

Have you even contacted and entered into negotiation with the JREF a proposed mutually agreeable protocol? That is the very first step, not just turning up somewhere and asking to be tested. Or posting nonsence on the Board to people who have no authority to speak on behalf of the JREF.

If you think that posting here is getting you closer to being able to talk to the JREF, you are sadly wrong.

Norm

Norm

[Paul2]

Is there a testing place in LA? I will be down there in August of 2012. Proposal (as stated) 12 covered pictures in circle - select one from twelve, remove me, reshuffle (return me), select one from twelve again. This is a 1 in 144 test I believe (12 x 12). I may have to go back and reread earlier posts, it seems like it was harder then this.

If this test is deemed too wimpy it will need to be revised.

If you're trying to select one picture from twelve, that's a 1 in 12 test.

[wardenclyffe]

Is there a testing place in LA?

Funny you should ask. Yes, there is a place to be tested in LA. The IIG is located there. I believe that JREF president D.J. Grothe also lives there. If you are willing to be tested, I'll bet they will be willing to test. There are also many other organizations all over the world that might be willing to give you cash if you can pass such a test. Pick whichever one's closest. Here's the list:

There's the Australian Skeptics' AU$100,000 Prize
http://www.skeptics.com.au/features/prize/
They also offer AU$20,000 as a "Spotter's Fee"

There's the IIG's US$50,000 Challenge in California, USA
They now have affiliates in Atlanta, GA and Washington, DC and are developing affiliates in Denver, CO, Calgary, Canada and probably other places as well.
http://www.iigwest.org/challenge.html
They also offer US$5,000 as a "Finder's Fee"

There's the North Texas Skeptic's US$12,000 Challenge in the USA
http://www.ntskeptics.org/challenge/challenge.htm

There's Prabir Ghosh's 2,000,000 Rupee Challenge in India
http://rationalistprabir.bravehost.com/

There's the Swedish 100,000SeK prize offered by Humanisterna
http://www.humanisterna.se/index.php...d=27&Itemid=49

The Tampa Bay Skeptics offers a US$1000 prize in Florida, USA
http://www.tampabayskeptics.org/challenges.html

In Canada there's the CAN$10,000 from the Quebec Skeptics
http://www.sceptiques.qc.ca/activites/defi

In the UK, the ASKE organization offers £14,000
http://www.aske-skeptics.org.uk/challenge_rules.htm

Tony Youens in the UK offers £5,000
http://www.tonyyouens.com/challenge.htm

In Finland, Skepsis offers 10,000 Euros
http://www.skepsis.fi/haaste/

The Fayetteville Freethinkers in Arkansas, USA offer a US$1000 prize
http://fayfreethinkers.com/

There's a 1,000,000 Yuan prize in China offered by Sima Nan. This is his blog: http://blog.sina.com.cn/simanan

The Belgian SKEPP organization offers a 10,500 Euro prize
http://www.skepp.be/prijzen/de-sisyphus-prijs/

If you find any broken links, or know of any tests not on this list, please notify me in this thread.

Good Luck,
Ward

[oody]

From what I've seen reading about past challenges, par for the preliminary tests seems to be about one in a thousand. Three successive picks at 1-in-10 might meet that, but two at 1-in-12 probably would not. And remember, this would only be for the preliminary challenge; a further agreement would need to be forged for the formal test. Since no one's ever gotten past the preliminary test, it's unclear whether the formal test would be a repeat of the preliminary test, or some greater hurdle.

If you haven't yet read the material available by clicking "$1 Million Paranormal Challenge" at the top of the randi.org pages, well now's the time. You'll need a medical exam, an affadavit from a doctor or a university professor that they've seen you perform this paranormal feat (presumably something easier than the preliminary test would be acceptable), and proof of some sort of media exposure --- presumably if you can do the 1-in-12 pick for a reporter a couple of times he would be willing to run a story in the local paper about your challenge.

[sadhatter]

If you're trying to select one picture from twelve, that's a 1 in 12 test.

Ever notice how the most long winded applicants for the mdc are always the ones that want to do a test that comes down to a dice roll? Pages of ramblings, and always it comes down to a long shot, but a shot.

Really, i would wager the price of a plane ticket to FL to do the equivalent of rolling a 12 on a 12 sided dice twice in a row. Sure, probably won't make it if the test is properly controlled, but who knows, maybe someone is having an off day, and doesn't figure out your trick, maybe something happens that gives you an edge, worst case scenario your still basically playing a lottery with pretty darn good odds.

It astounds me that folks think they will get away with this. I mean i understand they may not have the respect for the jref that we do, but come on, this is what the JREF does, to think that you have found the magic loophole is a tad egotistical.

[wardenclyffe]

I'm not clear on what's still required to qualify for the MDC. It was hinted that many of those hurdles would go away, but none of them have officially. But I think there are very few hurdles for the other tests. If twob were to pass any of those, it would almost guarantee enough media and academic attention to qualify for the MDC.

Ward

[Ladewig]

From what I've seen reading about past challenges, par for the preliminary tests seems to be about one in a thousand. Three successive picks at 1-in-10 might meet that, but two at 1-in-12 probably would not. And remember, this would only be for the preliminary challenge; a further agreement would need to be forged for the formal test. Since no one's ever gotten past the preliminary test, it's unclear whether the formal test would be a repeat of the preliminary test, or some greater hurdle.

If you haven't yet read the material available by clicking "$1 Million Paranormal Challenge" at the top of the randi.org pages, well now's the time. You'll need a medical exam, an affadavit from a doctor or a university professor that they've seen you perform this paranormal feat (presumably something easier than the preliminary test would be acceptable), and proof of some sort of media exposure --- presumably if you can do the 1-in-12 pick for a reporter a couple of times he would be willing to run a story in the local paper about your challenge.

I understand that no MDC officer or official is involved in this thread in any way, but I will ask my question anyway. Would passing a local skeptic test (such as the ones helpfully listed by Wardenclyffe) allow an applicant to skip some or all the prerequisites and go straight to the preliminary challenge?

[wardenclyffe]

I understand that no MDC officer or official is involved in this thread in any way, but I will ask my question anyway. Would passing a local skeptic test (such as the ones helpfully listed by Wardenclyffe) allow an applicant to skip some or all the prerequisites and go straight to the preliminary challenge?

I don't know that it would, but as I said in my post, passing such a test would almost guarantee the type of media/academic/medical attention required to qualifiy for the MDC. These things would come about as a natural consequence to passing one of the other tests and the person would, almost by default, qualify for the MDC. I thought at one time that there was language in one of the other challenges (IIG, I think) that stated that passing the IIG test automatically qualified an applicant for the MDC. That language is no longer a part of the IIG test that I can find (if it ever was---I can't rely on my memory for this one.).

Ward

[Pixel42]

I understand that no MDC officer or official is involved in this thread in any way, but I will ask my question anyway. Would passing a local skeptic test (such as the ones helpfully listed by Wardenclyffe) allow an applicant to skip some or all the prerequisites and go straight to the preliminary challenge?
I also definitely remember reading something to that effect when the media/affadavit qualifications were added for the MDC, but I can't remember where. Essentially passing such a test automatically fulfills those requirements as those who administered it (who almost certainly include people with suitable academic qualifications) are affirming that they've seen the applicant do what he says he can do, and any such successful test would undoubtedly receive coverage in at least a local newspaper. I'm sure JREF would be prepared to state in advance that if twob won the IIG's prize he would automatically qualify for the MDC.

So yes, twob: applying to the IIG and successfully winning their prize would be an excellent first step towards winning the MDC. The test protocol you describe in your OP would, with perhaps a little tweaking to ensure neither side can cheat, almost certainly be acceptable to them, though you'd need to do several runs for your success rate to be considered sufficiently better than chance to attribute it to a paranormal power. Agreeing how many successful runs are required would be part of the pre-test negotiations.

[Pixel42]

OK here's twob's original suggested test protocol, laid out formally.

Required:

12 pictures as follows: 1) the brave little toaster, 2) Buzz Lightyear, 3) Sponge Bob, 4) Bugs Bunny, 5) Daffy Duck, 6) Mickey Mouse, 7) Donald Duck, 8) Yosimite Sam, 9) Woody, 10) Wiley E. Coyote, 11) Lahiri Mahasaya (12) James Randi.

Criteria to be agreed before the test: the number of test runs, the number of times twob must identify the correct picture to pass (e.g. 10 runs and 7 succcessful identifications), and the number of minutes twob is allowed before he must select a picture.

twob says the pictures should be concealed by a cloth so presumably requires them to be face upwards. He also specifies that they should be put out in a circle of diameter 24-40' and 3-5 feet off the ground, so I suggest a circle of tall stools with a covered picture on each. Finding a suitable venue might be difficult, unless twob is prepared to reduce the size of the circle (few rooms are big enough to accomodate even a 24' circle plus room to walk around and for observers - a theatre stage perhaps?). Each stool should be clearly labelled with a number 1 to 12. Video cameras record where each picture is placed and all subsequent proceedings.

Step 1: The pictures are shuffled, put on the stools and covered in twob's absence.
ETA: Forgot to say that the person who put the pictures out should then leave the room - no-one who knows where the picture of Mahasaya is should be present whilst twob is trying to detect it.

Step 2: twob enters, wanders around the stools for a period to be agreed (a few minutes) and then specifies the number of the stool on which reposes the picture of Lahiri Mahasaya.

Step 3: the cloth covering the picture on the specified stool is removed, and the identity of its subject noted. In twob's presence the cloths covering all the other pictures are removed so he can confirm that they are as specified in the list above.

Step 4: Steps 1-3 are repeated [he suggests that for the second run a picture of Christ be used instead of Lahiri Mahasaya, perhaps they can be alternated] until either twob has successfully identified the correct picture the number of times agreed in the pre-test negotiations or he has failed to do sufficient times to make further runs unnecessary.

[wardenclyffe]

Not a bad start. I've got questions, but they are completely pointless unless and until twob agrees to such a protocol.

Ward

[twob]

OK here's twob's original suggested test protocol, laid out formally.

Required:

12 pictures as follows: 1) the brave little toaster, 2) Buzz Lightyear, 3) Sponge Bob, 4) Bugs Bunny, 5) Daffy Duck, 6) Mickey Mouse, 7) Donald Duck, 8) Yosimite Sam, 9) Woody, 10) Wiley E. Coyote, 11) Lahiri Mahasaya (12) James Randi.

Criteria to be agreed before the test: the number of test runs, the number of times twob must identify the correct picture to pass (e.g. 10 runs and 7 succcessful identifications), and the number of minutes twob is allowed before he must select a picture.

twob says the pictures should be concealed by a cloth so presumably requires them to be face upwards. He also specifies that they should be put out in a circle of diameter 24-40' and 3-5 feet off the ground, so I suggest a circle of tall stools with a covered picture on each. Finding a suitable venue might be difficult, unless twob is prepared to reduce the size of the circle (few rooms are big enough to accomodate even a 24' circle plus room to walk around and for observers - a theatre stage perhaps?). Each stool should be clearly labelled with a number 1 to 12. Video cameras record where each picture is placed and all subsequent proceedings.

Step 1: The pictures are shuffled, put on the stools and covered in twob's absence.
ETA: Forgot to say that the person who put the pictures out should then leave the room - no-one who knows where the picture of Mahasaya is should be present whilst twob is trying to detect it.

Step 2: twob enters, wanders around the stools for a period to be agreed (a few minutes) and then specifies the number of the stool on which reposes the picture of Lahiri Mahasaya.

Step 3: the cloth covering the picture on the specified stool is removed, and the identity of its subject noted. In twob's presence the cloths covering all the other pictures are removed so he can confirm that they are as specified in the list above.

Step 4: Steps 1-3 are repeated [he suggests that for the second run a picture of Christ be used instead of Lahiri Mahasaya, perhaps they can be alternated] until either twob has successfully identified the correct picture the number of times agreed in the pre-test negotiations or he has failed to do sufficient times to make further runs unnecessary.

Pixel42,

Thanks for doing the leg work. I was going to get around to this adventually. Looks good, except in one of my later posts I changed the picture of Christ to the picture of The Little Flower of Christ, St Theresa.

She is the one who longed for snow on her special day of being cloistered (becoming a Nun). It was a fair day so there was no snow. Alas Christ granted her little longing and gave her some snow in her little area for her special day. I have my reasons - I want her. Also, the size of the room is unimportant - whatever is reasonably available is fine. And I would like to use my pictures. I could show them here but I am blocked from displaying images.

How will I be trying to do this? I will be trying to feel and see the pink vibrations coming from the picture of Lahiri Mahasaya through my heart and spiritual eye (the point between the eyebrows - 'When thy eye be single thy body will be full of light').

And with The Little Flower of Christ I will be trying to smell flowers astrally coming from her concealed picture. I have a reason for all of this, and a reason for including a picture of James Randi. The only thing you didn't mention is that I won't do the MDC for a million dollars (if I should ever get that far) but will only do it for 0.25 cents, as per the reasoning in my previous story posts - "...I would rather have a quarter from you then if it were a million dollars...." I must be held to this lest I start thinking of all of the things I could buy with all of that $.

And if I should ever make it public the copyrighted images like Bugs Bunny might be a problem and may need to be replaced. And the only other thing is to have a quiet little isolated place to meditate (like a closet) before the test and in between the two rounds say for 20 minutes or so. So this test done two times is a 1 in 144 chance (12 x 12). Done 4 times is a 1 in (144 x 144) chance. I would suggest doing it 4 times - that is find Lahiri's picture, and then find the Little Flower's picture. And if successful, start all over and do the same thing again (thus the 144 x 144 odds). I'm not sure but I think this is something like hitting on the roulette wheel seven straight times.

[SkepticScott]

I would suggest doing it 4 times - that is find Lahiri's picture, and then find the Little Flower's picture. And if successful, start all over and do the same thing again (thus the 144 x 144 odds). I'm not sure but I think this is something like hitting on the roulette wheel seven straight times.Doing the feat three times successfully would probably be enough for a preliminary test since from what I've heard the JREF tries to set the chance of succeeding by chance at the preliminary test at 1/1000. You'd probably have to do it six times successfully in the challenge, since I think the odds of succeeding by chance are set a 1/1000000.

Since there are 36 spaces on a roulette wheel, the chance of picking the right one twice is 1/1296, three times 1/46656. Doing your 1/12 chance four times is the equivalent of picking the right roulette space ~2.77 times.

I strongly suggest you test yourself before applying. This is based on what I saw during Connie Sonne's preliminary test. You should be able to do this in an evening.

You will need two friends and four copies of each picture and 96 envelopes. Each picture should be physically similar -- that is, they should all be the same height, width and thickness.

Agree before starting which one picture you will find in all sets and record it. Simply having a fifth copy of the picture you are going to find placed prominently would be fine. If possible, the first friend should not know which picture you will be trying to find.

The first friend makes four sets of the 12 pictures by putting them in identical envelopes. The envelopes must be opaque so no one can see what picture is inside. To be sure there are no visual clues, seal each envelope in a second envelope. This person shuffles each set of 12 and leaves all four sets for the second friend. The first friend does all of this alone, leaves the area before the second friend comes in, and does not come back until the test is over. This person knows which picture is in which envelope and this guarantees there is no way for that information to be leaked accidentally.

The second friend takes each set, one set at a time, shuffles them out of your view, and lays them out for you to look at. Since you wrote about seeing or smelling something, you do not have to touch them. When you indicate which envelope has the target picture, your friend puts that aside, puts the other 11 envelopes aside, and you repeat the procedure with the next set.

After you have selected all four pictures you then open the envelopes to see if you are correct. If you get all four correct, you may have something, apply. If you get one correct, that means nothing, since there's a 25% chance of that happening by chance.

[Ladewig]

OK here's twob's original suggested test protocol, laid out formally.

Required:

12 pictures as follows: 1) the brave little toaster, 2) Buzz Lightyear, 3) Sponge Bob, 4) Bugs Bunny, 5) Daffy Duck, 6) Mickey Mouse, 7) Donald Duck, 8) Yosimite Sam, 9) Woody, 10) Wiley E. Coyote, 11) Lahiri Mahasaya (12) James Randi.

Criteria to be agreed before the test: the number of test runs, the number of times twob must identify the correct picture to pass (e.g. 10 runs and 7 succcessful identifications), and the number of minutes twob is allowed before he must select a picture.

twob says the pictures should be concealed by a cloth so presumably requires them to be face upwards. He also specifies that they should be put out in a circle of diameter 24-40' and 3-5 feet off the ground, so I suggest a circle of tall stools with a covered picture on each. Finding a suitable venue might be difficult, unless twob is prepared to reduce the size of the circle (few rooms are big enough to accomodate even a 24' circle plus room to walk around and for observers - a theatre stage perhaps?). Each stool should be clearly labelled with a number 1 to 12. Video cameras record where each picture is placed and all subsequent proceedings.

Step 1: The pictures are shuffled, put on the stools and covered in twob's absence.
ETA: Forgot to say that the person who put the pictures out should then leave the room - no-one who knows where the picture of Mahasaya is should be present whilst twob is trying to detect it.

Step 2: twob enters, wanders around the stools for a period to be agreed (a few minutes) and then specifies the number of the stool on which reposes the picture of Lahiri Mahasaya.

Step 3: the cloth covering the picture on the specified stool is removed, and the identity of its subject noted. In twob's presence the cloths covering all the other pictures are removed so he can confirm that they are as specified in the list above.

Step 4: Steps 1-3 are repeated [he suggests that for the second run a picture of Christ be used instead of Lahiri Mahasaya, perhaps they can be alternated] until either twob has successfully identified the correct picture the number of times agreed in the pre-test negotiations or he has failed to do sufficient times to make further runs unnecessary.


This post is a succinct, cogent, clear explanation of how to construct a protocol for a skeptic challenge - a definitive aid to a potential applicant.

My only question is why did you post it in this thread?

[Ladewig]

Doing the feat three times successfully would probably be enough for a preliminary test since from what I've heard the JREF tries to set the chance of succeeding by chance at the preliminary test at 1/1000. You'd probably have to do it six times successfully in the challenge, since I think the odds of succeeding by chance are set a 1/1000000.

Since there are 36 spaces on a roulette wheel,

38 spaces (unless you are in a European-style casino (only 37)), but the math is close enough for purposes of this discussion.

[twob]

This post is a succinct, cogent, clear explanation of how to construct a protocol for a skeptic challenge - a definitive aid to a potential applicant.

My only question is why did you post it in this thread?

Ladewig,

I am doing it for a quarter. What is my payoff?

[Marcus]

I strongly suggest you test yourself before applying. This is based on what I saw during Connie Sonne's preliminary test. You should be able to do this in an evening.

Judging from past aspirants, I would like to offer twob this handy list of excuses to choose from:

1) I don't need to self-test, I already know what I can do.
2) I don't have the time/money.
3) I don't need/want money, why should I bother?
4) I tested myself and passed with flying colors(forgot the controls)
5) I tested myself and passed with flying colors(lying)
6) It's JREF's responsibility to prove I don't have my powers(didn't read/understand the rules).

[twob]

Judging from past aspirants, I would like to offer twob this handy list of excuses to choose from:

1) I don't need to self-test, I already know what I can do.
2) I don't have the time/money.
3) I don't need/want money, why should I bother?
4) I tested myself and passed with flying colors(forgot the controls)
5) I tested myself and passed with flying colors(lying)
6) It's JREF's responsibility to prove I don't have my powers(didn't read/understand the rules).

No. I will approach just like I approach my spirituality - matter of factly. I meditate almost every day. I have taken a job that allows me to meditate 4 or 5 hours a night 5 times a week. I'll just incorporate this little thing into that and basically just forget about it. Do it once a day is good I would think.

[SkepticScott]

38 spaces (unless you are in a European-style casino (only 37)), but the math is close enough for purposes of this discussion.That shows how little I gamble; I'd forgotten about 0 and 00.

[Ladewig]

Ladewig,

I am doing it for a quarter. What is my payoff?

No. The only thing you are doing is talking.

I see no evidence at all that you will actually participate in a formal preliminary challenge or a formal regional challenge. You are free to prove me wrong, but until then you are more of a BS artist than an applicant.

[Ladewig]

Judging from past aspirants, I would like to offer twob this handy list of excuses to choose from:

1) I don't need to self-test, I already know what I can do.
2) I don't have the time/money.
3) I don't need/want money, why should I bother?
4) I tested myself and passed with flying colors(forgot the controls)
5) I tested myself and passed with flying colors(lying)
6) It's JREF's responsibility to prove I don't have my powers(didn't read/understand the rules).

(7) The million dollars doesn't exist
(8) Randi rigs the tests so that he can never lose - in fact he once admitted that.


ETA:
(5a) I didn't meet the standard that was defined before the test, but I came very close so that counts as a successful outcome.

(9) My power doesn't work when A) I am surrounded by doubters B) when I am trying to gain money and/or C) in any formal testing situation.
(10) Controlled testing is a Western concept; I, with my superior Eastern beliefs, don't need to participate in a test.
(11) My power is beyond your understanding so you cannot design a test for it.

damn, I have to go to work. I'd type these for the rest of the morning if I could.

[Marcus]

No. I will approach just like I approach my spirituality - matter of factly. I meditate almost every day. I have taken a job that allows me to meditate 4 or 5 hours a night 5 times a week. I'll just incorporate this little thing into that and basically just forget about it. Do it once a day is good I would think.
I was referring to an actual test, like the one laid out by Ladewig above, rather than you simply practicing your superpowers. In this case it's something you could easily do with a little help from some friends.

I really doubt that you approach your spiritual beliefs with the intent of providing objective evidence for their reality, so a self-test will require a different approach.

[Dumb All Over]

twob, Mr. Randi's Million Dollar Challenge is for...well...one million dollars. It is not offered for a quarter. If I was Mr. Randi, a man who has worked for much of his life to finally come to the point where the offering of a million dollars is even possible, I think I might be a little insulted at your offer.

Take your material quarter and go buy some gasoline.

This thread, upon second thought, belongs in Religion.

[Marcus]

(7) The million dollars doesn't exist
(8) Randi rigs the tests so that he can never lose - in fact he once admitted that.


ETA:
(5a) I didn't meet the standard that was defined before the test, but I came very close so that counts as a successful outcome.

(9) My power doesn't work when A) I am surrounded by doubters B) when I am trying to gain money and/or C) in any formal testing situation.
(10) Controlled testing is a Western concept; I, with my superior Eastern beliefs, don't need to participate in a test.
(11) My power is beyond your understanding so you cannot design a test for it.

damn, I have to go to work. I'd type these for the rest of the morning if I could.
Connie was very fond of (5a) , also resorted to (8) in the end.

[sadhatter]

OK here's twob's original suggested test protocol, laid out formally.

Required:

12 pictures as follows: 1) the brave little toaster, 2) Buzz Lightyear, 3) Sponge Bob, 4) Bugs Bunny, 5) Daffy Duck, 6) Mickey Mouse, 7) Donald Duck, 8) Yosimite Sam, 9) Woody, 10) Wiley E. Coyote, 11) Lahiri Mahasaya (12) James Randi.

Criteria to be agreed before the test: the number of test runs, the number of times twob must identify the correct picture to pass (e.g. 10 runs and 7 succcessful identifications), and the number of minutes twob is allowed before he must select a picture.

twob says the pictures should be concealed by a cloth so presumably requires them to be face upwards. He also specifies that they should be put out in a circle of diameter 24-40' and 3-5 feet off the ground, so I suggest a circle of tall stools with a covered picture on each. Finding a suitable venue might be difficult, unless twob is prepared to reduce the size of the circle (few rooms are big enough to accomodate even a 24' circle plus room to walk around and for observers - a theatre stage perhaps?). Each stool should be clearly labelled with a number 1 to 12. Video cameras record where each picture is placed and all subsequent proceedings.

Step 1: The pictures are shuffled, put on the stools and covered in twob's absence.
ETA: Forgot to say that the person who put the pictures out should then leave the room - no-one who knows where the picture of Mahasaya is should be present whilst twob is trying to detect it.

Step 2: twob enters, wanders around the stools for a period to be agreed (a few minutes) and then specifies the number of the stool on which reposes the picture of Lahiri Mahasaya.

Step 3: the cloth covering the picture on the specified stool is removed, and the identity of its subject noted. In twob's presence the cloths covering all the other pictures are removed so he can confirm that they are as specified in the list above.

Step 4: Steps 1-3 are repeated [he suggests that for the second run a picture of Christ be used instead of Lahiri Mahasaya, perhaps they can be alternated] until either twob has successfully identified the correct picture the number of times agreed in the pre-test negotiations or he has failed to do sufficient times to make further runs unnecessary.

Something has been irking me about the picture choices, and i think i have figured out what it is. To ruin the big reveal, i would suggest ensuring the cloth itself has absolutely no way to see anything through it. Or better yet have a solid object used. Anyway, to explain.

Being an animation fan, i could group the pictures into the following groups.

Group A
Brave little toaster
Buzz lightyear
bugs bunny

Group b
Sponge bob
Woody
Wile Coyote
Yosemite sam

Group C
Daffy duck
mickey mouse

Depending on the picture in question james randi and Lahiri Mahasaya, could fit in any of these groups , or in a third one with donald.

For those unfamiliar with the characters, before the reveal here , give them a look up and see if you can get what i am getting at.

Group a has a strong grey presence in the color scheme, group b has a strong presence of brown in the color scheme, and group c has a strong presence of black in the color scheme. If the cloth in question would allow anything to be seen through it, the choices would be narrowed down significantly by contrasting them with the picture that is to be found.

While this would not ensure a "fix" it would dramatically improve the odds, the person doing the test does not have to see the picture, but just almost any bit of it to be sure it is not the picture that they are looking for. And even if they only get one or two, through whatever means, it buffs the chances of finding the correct picture.

I would suggest using pictures of a similar color scheme to the one being found, heck, even better a bunch of blokes dressed up as close as possible to the picture being found. If this is really about psychic emanations, not just random chance, and stat buffing, there should be no issue in differentiating X guys in costume, and the real mccoy.

[Dumb All Over]

I just had another thought.

twob, how about if I just send you a quarter through the mail. If so, will you stop posting here? If you accept my offer, I promise to tell anyone and everyone for the rest of my life that twob sees pink where others do not. Sound good?

[Ladewig]

Something has been irking me about the picture choices, and i think i have figured out what it is. To ruin the big reveal, i would suggest ensuring the cloth itself has absolutely no way to see anything through it. Or better yet have a solid object used. Anyway, to explain.

Being an animation fan, i could group the pictures into the following groups.

Group A
Brave little toaster
Buzz lightyear
bugs bunny

Group b
Sponge bob
Woody
Wile Coyote
Yosemite sam

Group C
Daffy duck
mickey mouse

Depending on the picture in question james randi and Lahiri Mahasaya, could fit in any of these groups , or in a third one with donald.

For those unfamiliar with the characters, before the reveal here , give them a look up and see if you can get what i am getting at.

Group a has a strong grey presence in the color scheme, group b has a strong presence of brown in the color scheme, and group c has a strong presence of black in the color scheme. If the cloth in question would allow anything to be seen through it, the choices would be narrowed down significantly by contrasting them with the picture that is to be found.

While this would not ensure a "fix" it would dramatically improve the odds, the person doing the test does not have to see the picture, but just almost any bit of it to be sure it is not the picture that they are looking for. And even if they only get one or two, through whatever means, it buffs the chances of finding the correct picture.

I would suggest using pictures of a similar color scheme to the one being found, heck, even better a bunch of blokes dressed up as close as possible to the picture being found. If this is really about psychic emanations, not just random chance, and stat buffing, there should be no issue in differentiating X guys in costume, and the real mccoy.


Good call. I would add that I have seen many guru pictures that are partially covered with gold or silver foil. Such a picture might be partially visible because of the reflectivity.

[Ladewig]

Connie was very fond of (5a) , also resorted to (8) in the end.

(12A) Before I demonstrate my superpower, I have to tell you how persecuted I am.
(12B) Before I demonstrate my superpower, I have to tell you how I acquired the power.
If we ever renumber the list, please, please make this item (2B). The earnest Mr. TwoB did not invent this excuse, but he seems very fond of it.

(13) I need special device or technology to demonstrate my superpower and I don't have it available.
My favorite version of this is the claimant who said he needed a computer to predict state lottery numbers for seven consecutive days. But he didn't have a computer so no demonstration

(14) Demonstrating my superpower is very draining or exhausting so I am not going to demonstrate it.

ETA:
(15) My superpower involves seeing something that no other person, camera, or sensing device can see. So you'll just have to take my word that I am looking at spaceships, pixies, demons, or their ilk . One million dollars please.

(16) My intellect is so great that I give words new definitions that aren't in the dictionary - I will now describe my superpower. Do try to keep up.

(17) I was Cleopatra in a previous life. No, I cannot describe what I wore, ate, or did. In fact, I can't even name my relatives, my friends, my courtiers, or my enemies. All I can tell you is that I was very, very beautiful. One million dollars, please.

OK I'll stop now, before I drown in a sea of cynicism.

[wardenclyffe]

(snip)
And I would like to use my pictures. I could show them here but I am blocked from displaying images.

How will I be trying to do this? I will be trying to feel and see the pink vibrations coming from the picture of Lahiri Mahasaya through my heart and spiritual eye (the point between the eyebrows - 'When thy eye be single thy body will be full of light').

And with The Little Flower of Christ I will be trying to smell flowers astrally coming from her concealed picture. (snip)

A few things about this. First, you should now have enough posts that you should be able to include links to your pictures.

Second, all the pictures should be exactly alike, except for the image. Same size, same material, same frame, same everything---except for the image.

Third, you might have to allow the testing organization to spray the room with some sort of scented spray or have something producing a consistent scent during the test---and perhaps have a fan running. Any testing organisation worth its salt would require something like that. If you must use your own pictures, the testing organisation will have to ensure that you have not pre-perfumed each one so that you can smell which picture is which.

Things to think about.

Ward

[sadhatter]

Good call. I would add that I have seen many guru pictures that are partially covered with gold or silver foil. Such a picture might be partially visible because of the reflectivity.

That was the first thing that got me thinking really, i am a thrift store/flea market junkie, and i have seen a lot of these. And my first thought is that it would immediately be distinguishable from any of the other pictures ( or at the very least, able to be put in a category that would allow the op to pad his stats for a random chance.) , even if it was just cartoon characters that couldn't be divided into categories based on general color.

Really, i have seen folks who are legit, this guy seems like the " Million pages of text , covering up a game of chance that is as rigged as possible in my favor." type.

[Pixel42]

No. I will approach just like I approach my spirituality - matter of factly. I meditate almost every day. I have taken a job that allows me to meditate 4 or 5 hours a night 5 times a week. I'll just incorporate this little thing into that and basically just forget about it. Do it once a day is good I would think.
Do what once a day?

The first thing you need to do is actually try the test protocol (or a simplified version of it) with the help of a friend to see if you actually have this ability or not. When do you propose to do that?

[Donn]

Can't the pictures be placed facing backwards? That'll clear up the issue of partial visibility.

[Donn]

Ladewig, am loving your list. It should be a new thread and sticky!

[twob]

Do what once a day?

The first thing you need to do is actually try the test protocol (or a simplified version of it) with the help of a friend to see if you actually have this ability or not. When do you propose to do that?

Do a mini test once a day - incorporate it into my routine. Like shrink pictures down to playing card size, mix and lay them out. I live in a small space so this will have to do for now. I am still blocked.

[JWideman]

Do a mini test once a day - incorporate it into my routine. Like shrink pictures down to playing card size, mix and lay them out. I live in a small space so this will have to do for now. I am still blocked.

There's a reason we use words like "test". Unless you have someone arranging the pictures for you and recording your hits or misses, it's not a test.

[Neutiquam Erro]

That was the first thing that got me thinking really, i am a thrift store/flea market junkie, and i have seen a lot of these. And my first thought is that it would immediately be distinguishable from any of the other pictures ( or at the very least, able to be put in a category that would allow the op to pad his stats for a random chance.) , even if it was just cartoon characters that couldn't be divided into categories based on general color.

Really, i have seen folks who are legit, this guy seems like the " Million pages of text , covering up a game of chance that is as rigged as possible in my favor." type.

If the guru picture is levitating, that should be an immediate disqualification.

[twob]

If the guru picture is levitating, that should be an immediate disqualification.

Not necessarily. I know you are joking but through deep meditation it would be possible for an advanced soul to find the picture this way and it would be acceptable. This creation is based on delusion, and at the base of this delusion is polarity - negative/positive, male/female, etc... An advanced disciple is able to get beyond this. This meditational fellow, nicknamed DJ, is able to,

* start fire from his internal Chi
* catch small bullets
* send out healing shock energy
* push a chop stick through a table

Amazing this guy actually displayed such things before the public. Adventually he came to his "senses" (ironic pun since he got rid of his senses), and moved away from the ignorant world back into the peace of his meditational practices in the jungle (with his Guru - who was no longer in the body).

How? Through meditation he is tapping into his God-given deeper self and he is entering into places where the creation's rules do not apply to him like they do you. Somehow he is generating a negative and positive force within and then letting it out/controlling it through his will.

Also, I recognize what he is doing by pushing the chopstick through the table - he is consciously changing the matter of the table (the atoms -which at their foundations are only light) with his energy and consciousness (same with the bullet catching).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAAB0dbc3Es

[sadhatter]

Not necessarily. I know you are joking but through deep meditation it would be possible for an advanced soul to find the picture this way and it would be acceptable. This creation is based on delusion, and at the base of this delusion is polarity - negative/positive, male/female, etc... An advanced disciple is able to get beyond this. This meditational fellow, nicknamed DJ, is able to,

* start fire from his internal Chi
* catch small bullets
* send out healing shock energy
* push a chop stick through a table

Amazing this guy actually displayed such things before the public. Adventually he came to his "senses" (ironic pun since he got rid of his senses), and moved away from the ignorant world back into the peace of his meditational practices in the jungle (with his Guru - who was no longer in the body).

How? Through meditation he is tapping into his God-given deeper self and he is entering into places where the creation's rules do not apply to him like they do you. Somehow he is generating a negative and positive force within and then letting it out/controlling it through his will.

Also, I recognize what he is doing by pushing the chopstick through the table - he is consciously changing the matter of the table (the atoms -which at their foundations are only light) with his energy and consciousness (same with the bullet catching).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAAB0dbc3Es

Problem with the concept of bullet catching, whether we are talking "real" or in fiction is , how did the person catch the first bullet?

Any halfway intelligent person would not attempt it without absolute knowledge they could do it, and there would be no room for error. Yet we see few folks with blown off hands walking about because of a near miss with catching a bullet after attaining almost enough of the correct enlightenment at the local guru. That is because in the real world people don't catch bullets this way, they do it in a way they know is safe, and has 0 chance of causing harm.

[Ladewig]

Ladewig, am loving your list. It should be a new thread and sticky!

Marcus started it. I prefer to think that everyone at JREF can and will contribute. Think of it as our list rather than my list.


.


Ha Ha it is funny because it is true.

[Ladewig]

(18) You people are not treating me with the respect that a person with superpowers deserve so I am going to leave instead of displaying my superpower to the likes of you.

[Ladewig]

(19) Those superpowers I have been claiming to have for the past three pages? Yeah, I don't have any of those superpowers; but my guru does (I've seen videos). But he is far to important to be tested by Randi.

[SkepticScott]

> * start fire from his internal Chi

I can do that too, if allowed to bring my own paper. I fast forwarded the video to this point, and I stopped watching the video at this point.

> * catch small bullets

Penn & Teller do it with large bullets.

> * send out healing shock energy

Randi investigated someone who claimed to be able to do something like that. It was a trick.

> * push a chop stick through a table

So? I've pushed a salt shaker through a table. Randi does it better. It's a trick.

If that's all it takes to convince you that someone has super powers, may I point you to David Copperfield? He must be a god to do what he does.

twob, anyone can talk about having super powers. When are you going to apply and be tested?

[Pixel42]

Do a mini test once a day - incorporate it into my routine. Like shrink pictures down to playing card size, mix and lay them out. I live in a small space so this will have to do for now. I am still blocked.
Bear in mind that trying things without the proper controls in place (the ones that carefully and methodically eliminate the effect of the cognitive biases we all have) is how people convince themselves they have abilities they don't really have in the first place. It's why every previous MDC applicant ended up with egg on their face.

Remember also that any properly controlled testing you do will be the first time that you have done such testing, and hence the first time you are getting results which are reliable. If you cannot find the right picture under such conditions no matter how much you meditate and how much practice you put in you'll be able to safely conclude that you have never had this ability, not that you use to have it but no longer do.

ETA: I once saw a video of David Copperfield sawing himself in half and putting himself back together again. Clearly a god.

[Quinn]

An addition to the suggested protocol: twob shouldn't provide the physical pictures at all. Instead the JREF should print them out from image files provided by twob, and bring them to the test. Then let twob look at (but not touch) them to confirm that they're acceptable before beginning. Ideally this should be done through a window, to remove any possibility of twob altering the photos physically. Not that we don't trust you, twob, but these are the kinds of precautions that rigorous testing demands.

Has anyone pointed out that this is very similar to a test that one of the psychics did with Banachek on Nightline a couple months back?

[wardenclyffe]

Quinn,

You are describing an ideal-world situation. What I would expect in a situation like this is that the applicant (assuming he applies) would only be able to detect a very specific artifact with the image on it. Even if that artifact is just a piece of paper, I would expect the applicant to demand that the test uses his own picture that he is accustomed to detecting. It doesn't make a lot of sense since it's an image that's being detected, and not a specific piece of paper, but I'm sure that's what the claim would be.

I think this can be accomodated, but it requires much greater controls.

Otherwise the claim will be made that the image was somehow copied wrong or the printer ink was different or the paper was the wrong stock or the testing organisation somehow put a whammy on it.

That's how these things usually seem to work.

Ward

[Marcus]

updated list 2-b

1) I don't need to self-test, I already know what I can do.

2) I don't have the time/money.

3) I don't need/want money, why should I bother?

4) I tested myself and passed with flying colors(forgot the controls)

5) I tested myself and passed with flying colors(lying)

5a) I didn't meet the criteria defined before the test, but I came close so that should count as a win.

6) It's JREF's responsibility to prove I don't have my powers(didn't read/understand the rules).

7) The million dollars doesn't exist

8) Randi rigs the tests

9) My powers don't work when skeptics are present

10)My power is beyond your understanding so you cannot design a test for it

11)Controlled testing is a western concept, with my superior eastern beleifs I don't need to participate in a test.

12a) Before I demonstrate my superpower I have to tell you how persecuted I am

12b) Before I demonstrate my superpower I have to tell you how I acquired my powers

13)I need a special device to demonstrate my superpower and don't have it available

14)Demonstrating my superpower is very draining and exhausting so I am not going to demonstrate it.

15)My superpower involves seeing something no one else can see, so you will just have to take my word for it.

16)My intellect is so great that I use definitions that aren't in the dictionary- do try to keep up.

17)I was Cleopatra in a previous life. No, I can't provide any details. One million dollars, please.

18)You people are not treating me with the respect I deserve so I am going to leave instead of displaying my superpower to the likes of you.

19)These superpowers I have been claiming are actually those of my guru, but he is too important to be tested.

Ladewig, I shortened a few, too much typing:D

[Dumb All Over]

twob, Mr. Randi addressed your "DJ" several years ago. Check it out here. (http://www.randi.org/jr/2007-04/042007todd.html) Your DJ is nothing more than a con-artist.

You are being duped by simple magic tricks.

[carlitos]

Suggestions for 'our' list.updated list 2-b

1) I don't need to self-test, I already know what I can do.

2) I don't have the time/money.

3) I don't need/want money, why should I bother?

4) I tested myself and passed with flying colors(forgot the controls)

5) I tested myself and passed with flying colors(lying)

5a) I didn't meet the criteria defined before the test, but I came close so that should count as a win.

6) It's JREF's responsibility to prove I don't have my powers(didn't read/understand the rules).

7) The million dollars doesn't exist

8) Randi rigs the tests

9) My powers don't work when skeptics are present (The Sheep-Goat EffectTM)

10)My power is beyond your understanding so you cannot design a test for it

10a)You mere mortals can't even understand my claim until you read books x, y and z on mysticism, then embark on a personal journey of enlightenment. (Build your own telescopeTM)

11)Controlled testing is a western concept, with my superior eastern beleifs I don't need to participate in a test.

12a) Before I demonstrate my superpower I have to tell you how persecuted I am

12b) Before I demonstrate my superpower I have to tell you how I acquired my powers

13)I need a special device to demonstrate my superpower and don't have it available

14)Demonstrating my superpower is very draining and exhausting so I am not going to demonstrate it.

15)My superpower involves seeing something no one else can see, so you will just have to take my word for it.

16)My intellect is so great that I use definitions that aren't in the dictionary- do try to keep up.

17)I was Cleopatra in a previous life. No, I can't provide any details. One million dollars, please.

18)You people are not treating me with the respect I deserve so I am going to leave instead of displaying my superpower to the likes of you.

19)These superpowers I have been claiming are actually those of my guru, but he is too important to be tested.



Ladewig, I shortened a few, too much typing:D

[Ladewig]

10a)You mere mortals can't even understand my claim until you read books x, y and z on mysticism, then embark on a personal journey of enlightenment. (Build your own telescopeTM)


Good call.
I also love how this one many times breaks down into:

Skeptic: I read those books and I didn't reach the same conclusions
Believer: You didn't read them the right way. If you were enlightened, you would know how to read them.
Skeptic: So how do I become enlightened?
Believer: By reading those books in the right way.

[Ladewig]

updated list 2-b

11)Controlled testing is a western concept, with my superior eastern beliefs I don't need to participate in a test.

Kumar the Homeopath was fond of this one.

Were there other reasons he didn't think controlled tests were ever necessary?

.

[Marcus]

Kumar the Homeopath was fond of this one.

Were there other reasons he didn't think controlled tests were ever necessary?

.
I believe Kumar had a bit of 9) going as well, or at least waiting in the wings.

[aggle-rithm]

Anyway, when one gets rattled (disease, sickeness, war, etc...) one begins to really question things - who am I? what is this world, really? etc...

This all happened to me. Instinctively I turned to things within myself that were sitting there but latent. I figured I would answer these big questions once and for all, and I would use myself as my lab rat - "prove it to me or stand aside!"


When my father died, I also intinctively turned to things within myself that were sitting there but latent. I then said, "What a load of crap!" and tossed it aside.

[Ladewig]

I believe Kumar had a bit of 9) going as well, or at least waiting in the wings.

Wait. He was ready to assert that his homeopathy wouldn't work if people were watching? Wow.

[Ladewig]

I just remembered another.

20) I want to take the test but I am too busy defending all the discrepancies and contradictions in my lengthy JREF thread.

[twob]

I just remembered another.

20) I want to take the test but I am too busy defending all the discrepancies and contradictions in my lengthy JREF thread.

Which are?