Homeopathic diagnosis of animals?

[Capsid]

There has been a lot of discussion about homeopathic vets lately, which got me thinking. Doesn't a homoeopath have to take detailed notes of a patient's entire clinical history before they could reach a decision as to what treatment to prescribe (the holistic approach). How does this approach work for pets/animals?

It's not like the homoeopath vet can consult the animal directly but has to rely on the owner's view/memory. This is OK for say a caged animal mostly where the owner pretty well knows what his pet has been up to, but for a cat, farm animals or even a dog perhaps they are not entirely in their sight all the time. I just have this image of a cat laughing behind paw saying "I think I'll keep quiet about that STD I caught last year" or "I felt a bit queasy for a few months after drinking out of that puddle".

I don't see how every ailment can be reported? And so how can a homeoepath vet come to the correct treatment or do they not follow the clinical history approach for animals?

[geni]

From a strict homeopathic view treating animals doesn't make much sense (but then some homeopaths claim to treaty plants which is even more illogical). In the end most homeopaths just rely on asking the owner and doing a physical exam (at best). Homeopathy's indivudalisation tends to be rather overstated any way so they probably don't have a proplem "treating" animals. If you want to get a glimps of what really hapens go here (http://www.hpathy.com/FORUM/display_forum_topics.asp?ForumID=3&PagePosition=1).

[Lisa Simpson]

What they really need to do is combine the two woo-woos. Yes, two woo woos in one. Pet psychics and pet homeopathy.

[geni]

Originally posted by Lisa Simpson
What they really need to do is combine the two woo-woos. Yes, two woo woos in one. Pet psychics and pet homeopathy.

Add in dowsing to find the remedy and you've got 3. Of coure you can solve the whole problem of remedy selection by using isopathy but that is less popular.

[Suezoled]

The whole erroneous assumption of homeopathy and veterinary homeopathy is that it works somehow. Or it makes the owners feel like they are doing something helpful for their pet. Homeopathy in veterinary is really more for the owner than the pet.

[Capsid]

I looked at the Homeopathy for pets forum from the link posted by Geni (thanks).

There is a questionnaire there for the owners to fill in, but it is very basic. I just don't see how an untrained person in animal biology can use this information to come to a diagnosis.

[Rolfe]

They seem to do the "case-taking" by questioning the owner.

On the other hand, some of them emphasise that you need to get a correct diagnosis before you can treat with homoeopathy. How this school of thought squares itself with Hahnemann saying it was pointless and counterproductive to seek for the underlying cause of illness, I really don't know.

However, they do somehow seem to decide that this is a "pulsatilla case" or something like that.

The bit that really gets me is that they never do their "provings" on animals. They make a virtue of this when dealing with humans - we don't experiment on poor defenceless animals, not us; and since humans and animals are different it makes no sense to do any animal work with remedies, what matters is how humans react. Fine, but when choosing a remedy for an animal they just totally ignore this last bit and go entirely by the human provings.

I suppose it makes about as much sense as the rest of it.

Rolfe.

[geni]

[very heavy salcasum] That's the wounderful thing about homeopathy! You don't need to know about illness and desease or even basic bilogy. All you need to do is find a remedy that matches the symptom and you are garenteed^* a cure. It's the evil allopaths that think you need to know something about illness or how the body works. My dog had a sniffle so I gave him Nat Mur 30C and next day he was better!!


* unless there is an agrivation or the illness turned out to be a supressed something else or you chose the wrong remedy or you remedies went through an airpot scaner or you vacinated your pet (full list of reasons why your remedy may not work can be found at www.homeopathyexcuses.com on payment of a standard consulting fee of $120)
[/very heavy salcasum]

[Capsid]

Thanks for your comments Rolfe and Geni.

If homeopathy followed conventional medicine licensing then these remedies would have been tested on animals for safety and then efficacy by using animal models of human disease. Now wouldn't that data really add to the validity of homeopathy?

[Homeoskeptic]

As homeopaths we most certainly look for the causes within a case and all remedies have causations in their profiles, as well as the affinities for the parts of the body, such as the liver, kidneys and nerves etc.

When a patient tells you of their past medical history, this along with causations can be fitted very nicely into the three miasms, if you are taking a chronic case. All remedies that we prescribe are Miamatic too.

This is why all lay homeopaths are extremely well trained in anatomy, physiology, pathology and differential diagnosis. Most of the part-time courses in homeopathy are 4 years long and include all this, but there are however two degree courses, one that is run by the University of Westminster and one up in Lancashire, where the courses are three year degree courses and graduates are awarded a BSc (Hons) qualification at the end of the course. These include rigorous sciences based content too with students taking anatomy, physiology, integrated physiology, pathology and differential diagnosis as part of their course, alongside the homeopathy modules.

The University of Westminster also runs a BSc (Hons) course in Traditional Chinese Medicine Acupuncture as well.

[Rolfe]

A degree in golf-course green-keeping or even the dreaded "media studies" would be a damn sight more useful to society - and more honest too.

Typical post by Naturalhealth, prissy, sanctimonious, and absolutely bugger-all to do with the subject under discussion.

:dl:

Rolfe.

[Rolfe]

Originally posted by Capsid
these remedies would have been tested on animals for safety and then efficacy by using animal models of human disease. Now wouldn't that data really add to the validity of homeopathy? The remedies have a get-out which is really a political sop to the fact that there was a small group of medical homoeopaths with some influence at the time the regulations were being drawn up - that and the fact that as there's nothing actually in the remedies the argument that they're not likely to be unsafe isn't a hard one to get safety committees to accept (of course they don't talk about aggravations or proving effects or Hering's Law in this context).

There have been quite a few attempts to get homoeopathic remedies licensed as real medicines by going through the proper efficacy trials, because the manufacturers know they would be quids in if they had proper drug marketing authorisations, but funnily enough none of them has ever passed the efficacy trials. Homoeopaths don't talk about this.

They are only allowed to sell the things if they don't make any therapeutic claims for the stuff. Like "a homoeopathic remedy without approved therapeutic indication" appears on a lot of their botles.

Rolfe.

[geni]

Natural health I thought you said you had stopped posting here.

However your stament is wrong. As Hanneman said you need to find a simulium and then you will have the remedy. What caused the symptoms (viruses, bacteria,fungi,parasites etc) is not really part of the remedy picture is it. What matter is the totality of the paicents symptoms not the cause of said symptoms (all though suppresed sysmptoms causing other things is important in long term case management).

Btw the university of westminster manages to get through the whole of it's description of homeopathy without once mentioning sucession. Does this make them feel guilty? Btw the requirements seem to be about 0 A Levels a bit low for a medical course I think.
source (http://search.ucas.co.uk/cgi-bin/hsrun/search/search/StateId/C3s-FGUI9gSFGDjLcgSnA0N1V5Gas-VNHG/HAHTpage/search.HsEntryReq.run?n=585979#ER-A)

For the record UCAS does not regard the University of Central Lancashire course as a pure homeopathy course.

[Rolfe]

Originally posted by geni
Natural health I thought you said you had stopped posting here.Oh, don't put her off! ANYTHING's better than Xanta! Even this Corallinus woo might have something to say, you never know.

Besides, it's more interesting to have homoeopaths in the plural. When they start fighting among themselves it's as good as Tom and Jerry!

Rolfe.

[Virgil]

if my vet ever suggested anything homeocrap, i'd grab the baby and be out the door so fast....

my baby is a skepticat.


Virgil

[Homeoskeptic]

Of course what I posted was relevant to the discussion. The question I answered was about causation and I am just telling you that a remedy picture includes causations. I was putting you right about something that you all got wrong.

I do know full well about finding the 'similimum', however I do look at the causations of a case too and not just from suppression either. I have actually prescribed remedies on the causations themselves and they have worked extremely well. A new remedy picture has then appeared following this remedy and through the follow-up case, I have prescribed the next remedy, which has taken the patient further forward.

I totally accept that viruses and bacteria exist and can cause disease and I have no problem with this homeopathically. This is where the acute miams come into play and where you are treating acute disease rather than chronic.

I think that a lot of homeopaths would agree on this point.

Also, the University of Westminster run a very good classical homeopathic course.

This post was appropriate and directly answered the question posed about whether lay homeopaths need training in the sciences. Yes, of course they do and they all get it too.

[Homeoskeptic]

Well, luckily there are quite a number of vets that do and the animals are a lot better for it too.

Good for John Saxton and all the other homeopathic vets that are around.

[geni]

Originally posted by Homeoskeptic
I do know full well about finding the 'similimum', however I do look at the causations of a case too and not just from suppression either. I have actually prescribed remedies on the causations themselves and they have worked extremely well. A new remedy picture has then appeared following this remedy and through the follow-up case, I have prescribed the next remedy, which has taken the patient further forward.

This doesn't make sense from a clasical point of view

I totally accept that viruses and bacteria exist and can cause disease and I have no problem with this homeopathically. This is where the acute miams come into play and where you are treating acute disease rather than chronic.

I think that a lot of homeopaths would agree on this point.


I know they do. However things like HIV give you a bit of a problem don't they? A cronic desease caused by a virus. I can think of others that do the same (ok pretty much everything we vacinate against can do the same some of the time).

Also, the University of Westminster run a very good classical homeopathic course.

Appear to be the only one in the country and with those entry reqirments I doubt it.

This post was appropriate and directly answered the question posed about whether lay homeopaths need training in the sciences. Yes, of course they do and they all get it too.

In fact they don't. You for example seem to think that URL=http://www.niaid.nih.gov/factsheets/evidhiv.htm]this page[/URL] leaves some room for doubt over the cause of AIDS. The level of understanding exipted by homeopaths about how the body works is worrying to say the least.

[geni]

Originally posted by Homeoskeptic
Well, luckily there are quite a number of vets that do and the animals are a lot better for it too.

There are also many animals that are dead. Vist you own forums to see that.

[Prester John]

By HS/NH
This is why all lay homeopaths are extremely well trained in anatomy, physiology, pathology and differential diagnosis.

This post was appropriate and directly answered the question posed about whether lay homeopaths need training in the sciences. Yes, of course they do and they all get it too.



Bwahhahahhaha

No, go read the science forums at hpathy and you'll see.

Most of the homeopaths i have spoken to have shown f all knowledge of the above. That includes yourself NH/HS. You always back away as soon as the questions start to get towards something specific. You show no knowldege of science, why only a couple of weeks ago you didn't even know what blinding was.

[Oh and incase you didn't know, its illegal to treat/diagnose animals that are not your own or your employers if you are not a registered vet in the UK.]

How does homeopathy/miasms fit in with viruses and bacteria? Why can't you cure HIV infection? For that matter do you have any luck with curing Herpes simplex infections (No don't just make them go away for a while, they tend to do that by themselves) ?

[Virgil]

Originally posted by Homeoskeptic
Well, luckily there are quite a number of vets that do and the animals are a lot better for it too.




Since my baby is my most prized possesion I am not willing to gamble on an unproven treatment. on treatment that makes no sense scientifically.

besides every straight chiropratic vet knows disease is casued by subluxations.





Virgil

[Rolfe]

Originally posted by Homeoskeptic
Well, luckily there are quite a number of vets that do and the animals are a lot better for it too.

Good for John Saxton and all the other homeopathic vets that are around. Perhaps we should clarify what "quite a number" amounts to. 41 actual members (or fellows) of the Faculty of Homoeopaths. They are still considered to be learners until they get this far. So less than 0.2% of the profession actually qualified in homoeopathy.

The reason there has been some professional interest in them recently is one of their ranks being prosecuted by the RSPCA for causing unnecessary suffering to a dog he'd been treating for a bad ear for over three years. At the end of that time the dog was missing so much skin and in such a bad way it had to be put down. (He was acquitted, but if you indict someone for a period during which he didn't actually see the dog, that's what you get. The next thing that happened was that the case was the subject of an official complaint of professional misconduct to the RCVS.) This is a sample of how much better the animals are. BSM has some more similar stories. Sickening.

The BAHVS (http://www.bahvs.com/asociate.html) is the society these lunatics have formed for themselves. They've tried to get it recognised by the BVA, but the BVA rejected their application unanimously. Twice. They claim that "membership has now grown to 140". Compared to about 12 years ago (the time of their last BVA rejection), when they claimed 150 members. Less is more - figures, from homoeopaths! This association is about it as far as veterinary interest in homoeopathy goes. So, less that 0.7% of the profession has even an interest (in a positive sense, that is - quite a lot of us have an interest in the other direction!) in homoeopathy.

John Saxton is barking mad. Naturalhealth, how do you view his work with radionics? Healing by ESP? (BSM, note the answer, as it relates to your question about whether there was anything so insane that the woos wouldn't believe in it.)

Rolfe.

[Homeoskeptic]

Treating causations is not strictly classical I know, but it works at times and a lot of homeopaths do it.

Recently, I had a patient come to see me. She had been in a car accident. She had not received any serious injuries, but had been checked over in the hospital and was later released. She came to me complaining that she felt very blocked off and depressed. I took the case and decided to prescribe a remedy on the causation. The causation in this case was the trauma. As she was so blocked off and stuck and the case was very mental and emotional, I decided to prescribe Arnica 1M. She took this Arnica and the next day awoke covered in bruises and was so stiff that she could hardly move. This all resolved during the course of the week and she then made a full recovery. This was after only one dose of Arnica 1M. So no, this is not strictly classical prescribing, but the cause in the case was so strong that this is probably the only remedy that would have worked at the time.

A lot of homeopaths prescribe in this way and it is a perfectly legitimate way to prescribe.

HIV and AIDS fits the Syphillitic miam. I have never treated HIV myself, but there are lots of homeopaths that do and they have extremely good success rates.

I have read all posts about animal homeopathy on our own forum and the animals that did die were close to death anyway and the remedies just helped to ease their suffering and help them to a very pleaceful death. My own dog has done extremely well on Phosphorus and continues to do so.

I know full well what blinding is thank you. Anymore questions about homeopathy that I can answer for you, that you really don't know about.

[Rolfe]

Originally posted by Homeoskeptic
Recently, I had a patient come to see me. She had been in a car accident. She had not received any serious injuries, but had been checked over in the hospital and was later released. She came to me complaining that she felt very blocked off and depressed. I took the case and decided to prescribe a remedy on the causation. The causation in this case was the trauma. As she was so blocked off and stuck and the case was very mental and emotional, I decided to prescribe Arnica 1M. She took this Arnica and the next day awoke covered in bruises and was so stiff that she could hardly move. This all resolved during the course of the week and she then made a full recovery.And this sequence of events is different from what would have happened if nothing at all had been done, exacly how?

Answer: Naturalhealth got richer and the patient got poorer.

Rolfe.

[Virgil]

Originally posted by Homeoskeptic

HIV and AIDS fits the Syphillitic miam. I have never treated HIV myself, but there are lots of homeopaths that do and they have extremely good success rates.



Are you really claiming that these homeopaths have cured HIV/ AIDs?


Virgil

[Capsid]

I like to think I have an open mind, but I am very frustrated when the homeopathic remedies are judged to have worked because someone "did very well". What does this mean? Please explain in more detail or is this the depth of the clinical notes?

Blocked off? What is that?!

I have never treated HIV myself, but there are lots of homeopaths that do and they have extremely good success rates

Again, please, please explain this. If homeopathy has a cure for AIDS then please share it with the world, in fact it should be a duty to do so

[geni]

Originally posted by Homeoskeptic Treating causations is not strictly classical I know, but it works at times and a lot of homeopaths do it.

The probelemn with this claim is that this means that many studies that are not really claical are legitimate under this form of homeopathy. They have rather negative results.

Recently, I had a patient come to see me. She had been in a car accident. She had not received any serious injuries, but had been checked over in the hospital and was later released. She came to me complaining that she felt very blocked off and depressed. I took the case and decided to prescribe a remedy on the causation. The causation in this case was the trauma. As she was so blocked off and stuck and the case was very mental and emotional, I decided to prescribe Arnica 1M. She took this Arnica and the next day awoke covered in bruises and was so stiff that she could hardly move. This all resolved during the course of the week and she then made a full recovery. This was after only one dose of Arnica 1M. So no, this is not strictly classical prescribing, but the cause in the case was so strong that this is probably the only remedy that would have worked at the time.

I went for arnica as soon as you got as far as the car acedent but never mind (I'm not sure that the mental symptoms fit might go for bach flower remedies). How long after the car crash did the person come to see you? at the monet you seem to be describing a pretty normal recovery process.

A lot of homeopaths prescribe in this way and it is a perfectly legitimate way to prescribe.

Not clasicly but then there are plent of non claisical pratices around

HIV and AIDS fits the Syphillitic miam. I have never treated HIV myself, but there are lots of homeopaths that do and they have extremely good success rates.

The is not one proven case where AIDS was cured by homeopathy. There are milions out there who would kill for something that worked. Just one clear properly documented case would be enough.

I have read all posts about animal homeopathy on our own forum and the animals that did die were close to death anyway and the remedies just helped to ease their suffering and help them to a very pleaceful death. My own dog has done extremely well on Phosphorus and continues to do so.


Perhaps they would not have been so close to death with modern vetinery help. We will never know.


I know full well what blinding is thank you. Anymore questions about homeopathy that I can answer for you, that you really don't know about.

It's all in the orogon isn't it?

[Homeoskeptic]

Well, I was this patients homeopath and she came to see me two days after the accident occurred. She always does this in the event of problems. Anyway, you know absolutely nothing about materia medica anyway, so how on earth you can properly comment on any remedy, I really do not know. Anyway, Arnica fitted the case and the stuck feelings and depression was due to the trauma, so I was treating the causation directly. It was after the dose that the next day she actually had a physical outlet.

I have never treated either HIV or AIDS patients so I do not know. However, what I actually said was that I know of some homeopaths who have treated HIV with some success. I said HIV, not AIDS. HIV is not the same as AIDS and not all patients with HIV go on to develop AIDS.

Also, the animals on our forum were elderly and would have died anyway, without the intervention of allopathic medication. Some of the animals did get allopathic treatment without success and the homeopathic remedies did alleviate their suffering and helped them to a peaceful end.

Do you ever read posts properly? Obviously you don't, because you constantly and repeatedly post incorrect factual information.

Yes, all the answers are in The Organon so perhaps you should read it sometime soon. Do that and you may begin to know what you are talking about - it is quite obvious that you don't have a clue at the moment.

[Lisa Simpson]

Originally posted by Homeoskeptic
Well, I was this patients homeopath and she came to see me two days after the accident occurred. She always does this in the event of problems. Anyway, you know absolutely nothing about materia medica anyway, so how on earth you can properly comment on any remedy, I really do not know. Anyway, Arnica fitted the case and the stuck feelings and depression was due to the trauma, so I was treating the causation directly. It was after the dose that the next day she actually had a physical outlet.



Meh. More anecdotal evidence. I was in a car accident three years ago. I was depressed afterwards, and I bruise slowly, so the bruises from the accident didn't show up until three days later.

Bring me the scientific evidence, please.

[Rolfe]

Originally posted by Capsid
If homeopathy has a cure for AIDS then please share it with the world, in fact it should be a duty to do so Don't hold your breath. You've as much chance of getting a straight answer to this as BSM has of getting Naturalheath to come up with proof that homoeopathy has even cured a case of chronic renal failure. (He's asked her many times, here and on H'pathy, first she said go and look on the homoeopath's web site - without giving a link - and when BSM actually found the page by himself it was just the usual woolly anecdote, now she just ignores the question.)

I think it has to do with a redefining of "did very well" to "was still alive a month or two later". They do the same with hyperthyroid cats. Never mind that the disease is progressing as expected, the patient is still breathing, didn't we do well!

Still, Naturalhealth seems to have given up claiming to be a qualified doctor. You know, when you look at the pack of lies homoeopaths regularly tell about anything and everything (including coming on the board pretending to have a wife who was into this "dangerous nonsense" and looking for ammunition to dissuade her), it never fails to amaze me that we so often attempt to discuss their anecdotes as if it was at all likely that a single syllable of any of it was true.

Rolfe.

[Suezoled]

Originally posted by Homeoskeptic
Treating causations is not strictly classical I know, but it works at times and a lot of homeopaths do it.

Recently, I had a patient come to see me. She had been in a car accident. She had not received any serious injuries, but had been checked over in the hospital and was later released. She came to me complaining that she felt very blocked off and depressed. I took the case and decided to prescribe a remedy on the causation. The causation in this case was the trauma. As she was so blocked off and stuck and the case was very mental and emotional, I decided to prescribe Arnica 1M. She took this Arnica and the next day awoke covered in bruises and was so stiff that she could hardly move. This all resolved during the course of the week and she then made a full recovery. This was after only one dose of Arnica 1M. So no, this is not strictly classical prescribing, but the cause in the case was so strong that this is probably the only remedy that would have worked at the time.
(snipped)

Why you arrogant son-of-a-jack! Someone has been in a car accident, one serious enough that she has had bruising and psychological trauma, and you don't even mention she might be better off seeing a REAL doctor to make sure she hasn't suffered any fractures or head injuries? YOU were lucky that SHE was lucky and bruising and depression was all that seemed to occur.

[geni]

Originally posted by Homeoskeptic
[B]Well, I was this patients homeopath and she came to see me two days after the accident occurred. She always does this in the event of problems. Anyway, you know absolutely nothing about materia medica anyway, so how on earth you can properly comment on any remedy, I really do not know.

Arnica is a pretty standad response to the kind of things you would expect in a car acident. There are other but Arnica seems to be the most common
Anyway what makes you think I know nothing about the materia medica? I admit My knowlage is extreamly limited but some things stick out.

Anyway, Arnica fitted the case and the stuck feelings and depression was due to the trauma, so I was treating the causation directly. It was after the dose that the next day she actually had a physical outlet.

To me it still reads like a pretty normal recovery

I have never treated either HIV or AIDS patients so I do not know. However, what I actually said was that I know of some homeopaths who have treated HIV with some success.

Good good and they can show well document fall in virus levels and a slowing/halting of the progression of the desease? All well documented?

I said HIV, not AIDS. HIV is not the same as AIDS and not all patients with HIV go on to develop AIDS.

Source? (and virusmyth.net is not a good source)

Also, the animals on our forum were elderly and would have died anyway, without the intervention of allopathic medication. Some of the animals did get allopathic treatment without success and the homeopathic remedies did alleviate their suffering and helped them to a peaceful end.

Do you ever read posts properly? Obviously you don't, because you constantly and repeatedly post incorrect factual information.

I sated that we would never know if conventional medcine would have helped them. I suspect it is unlikly but them I can show that conventional medecine has a real chance of helping them. I can't do the same for homeopathy.

Yes, all the answers are in The Organon so perhaps you should read it sometime soon. Do that and you may begin to know what you are talking about - it is quite obvious that you don't have a clue at the moment.

Well I don't read german but I ahve read quite a bit of an English translation.

[geni]

Originally posted by Suezoled


Why you arrogant son-of-a-jack! Someone has been in a car accident, one serious enough that she has had bruising and psychological trauma, and you don't even mention she might be better off seeing a REAL doctor to make sure she hasn't suffered any fractures or head injuries? YOU were lucky that SHE was lucky and bruising and depression was all that seemed to occur.

Be fair the hospital had already made sure she was ok and I think 2 days is a bet early to call a physcologist.

[Suezoled]

Arnica is used for horses at the racetrack, for the most part. It's used for bruises and muscle strain. Big deal.

[Suezoled]

Originally posted by geni


Be fair the hospital had already made sure she was ok and I think 2 days is a bet early to call a physcologist.

Dang it Geni! I was gonna see if HS mentioned again that the patient had already been to the hospital. Then I was gonna say " if she had been to the hospital, I'm sure they were sure time would heal her minor injuries, and you were superfluous after all."

Ruin my grand scheme Geni.... ah, well. What can you do?

[Psiload]

I'm sick... I'm ill... I'm nauseous.

I stumbled upon this, I seriously wish I had not:

http://www.hptg.org/courses/international/american-appraisal.html

I have recently finished the most amazing three year course of classical homeopathy in England for veterinarians and physicians, and am working to help make this teaching available in the USA. Yada, yada, yada...

I will never forget the unbelievable (but true!) case I had of a Golden Retriever (typical happy go lucky golden) with a case of chronic diarrhea that just would not respond to very well chosen remedies - actually she did respond to all of them, but they just didn't hold. She had 3 years of treatment with me and 2 with other homeopathic vets (good ones) prior to myself. Finally after hearing a lecture of how if well-chosen remedies don't act, look at the owner and see what unresolved issues they have and prescribe on that. Well, I can only say, that after a conversation with the owner, who herself had Crohn's disease and had been molested as a child and despite having been in therapy for years, had very little recall of the situation, and who also despite what myself and the other homeopathic vets had told her - NOT to vaccinate or use frontline - and she continued to do so, and where I sense A LOT of suppressed anger, - I prescribed Staphysagria for the dog (which did NOT fit the dog in anyway shape or form). It has been months and still counting on a 30c that the dog is doing great - So sad, so wrong... on so many levels.

Here's the kicker:

I feel that I have grown both professionally and personally since taking this course. It is extremely invigorating and exciting to be involved with such a motivated group of individuals who are committed to homeopathy and human values, who approach teaching with their own style and bent and have many years of varied experience.

Tutors include such notables as:

* John Saxton who has run a multivet homeopathic practice for 20 years in Leeds. I have never met a person with such a complete grasp of the materia medica as John. His lectures are packed with so much practical information which is so useful for us vets.

F*!%ing quacks! :mad:

[Homeoskeptic]

Well, the dog was cured of the diarrhea so what are you complaining about.

Talk about ****ing quack - you must be the biggest ****ing idiot out of the whole lot.

No Ralphe, you are wrong, I am still a doctor by the way. I have never just claimed to be one. Why would I need to when I am one hey! Idiot. Get your scientific evidence first.

Arnica has a lot more indications for use than just muscle soreness.

Also, stop being so rude to Kumar. Just because his questons are irritating you, there is no need to treat him like ****.

You don't know any better though do you. Perhaps you should go and take a dose of Nux Vomica and see what that does for you. Nothing I suspect.

[Rolfe]

Originally posted by Suezoled
Arnica is used for horses at the racetrack, for the most part. It's used for bruises and muscle strain. Big deal. Suez, I should look at this "arnica" more closely. I'll take a medium-sized bet there are no arnica molecules in it. It's purely a homoeopathic preparation.

Arnica montana is what the homoeopaths call a sort of pink-ish mountain daisy. Might even be its real specific name (not sure, homoeopaths often don't get that right). Do you really think this is a likely sane treatment for bruises etc, even in real quantities?

It's not. It's just a homoeopathic genus epidemicus (remedy for a standard presentation rather than going through all the individualisation) which has somehow trickled into the general category of folk remedies. But I think you'lll find that the preparation is homoeopathic.

One of my technicians had cosmetic surgery recently, and the blurb from the surgeon included the information that she would be offered arnica, a homoeopathic remedy for bruising, though she didn't have to take it. It's amazing how woo-woo ideas can sneak into the mainstream, one guy does it so another does it too and so on. :nope:

None of them seem to be aware that it doesn't make any difference (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12562974&dopt=Abstract&holding=f1000).The results of this trial do not suggest that homeopathic arnica has an advantage over placebo in reducing postoperative pain, bruising and swelling in patients undergoing elective hand surgery.Rolfe.

[Rolfe]

Originally posted by Psiload
I'm sick... I'm ill... I'm nauseous.

I stumbled upon this, I seriously wish I had not:

http://www.hptg.org/courses/international/american-appraisal.htmlI seriously think there's an element of brainwashing involved in that course. So many of the homoeopaths who can't even begin to justify what they're doing promptly fall back on "if you'd just go on this course, you'd see exactly what we mean." (My eyes were opened and I saw the light and they sound just like people who've been on the Alpha Course.)

As I said, John Saxton is barking mad, and a danger to the animal kingdom. His only publication that I've ever traced is "Radionics and Pranamonics - pure energy medicine", in the Radionics Journal. Radionics, in case anyone doesn't know, is the harnessing of the power of ESP for healing. Like BSM says, embrace one lunatic idea, embrace the lot.

Dog was cured, was he? The report says "doing great". I'd like a precise definition of "doing great" in this context. A bit like the HIV patients that are "doing well". "Not actually dead" seems to about cover it most of the time.

For anyone who thinks for half a moment that Naturalhealth is a doctor (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=38933).

Rolfe.

[Rolfe]

Originally posted by Homeoskeptic
Also, stop being so rude to Kumar. Just because his questons are irritating you, there is no need to treat him like s**t.And you guys banning him was being nice to him exactly how?

He'd get on fine here if he simply said what he meant a bit more clearly.

(And if you think that's rude, you ain't seen nothing yet. Oh sorry, you've seen Divina. I bow before the mistress of bilious invective.)

Rolfe.

[geni]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Homeoskeptic
Well, the dog was cured of the diarrhea so what are you complaining about.

that it took three years


Arnica has a lot more indications for use than just muscle soreness.

We know

Also, stop being so rude to Kumar. Just because his questons are irritating you, there is no need to treat him like s**t.[b]

Hey who banned him (vijay)

[b]
You don't know any better though do you. Perhaps you should go and take a dose of Nux Vomica and see what that does for you. Nothing I suspect.

I tried a homeopathic remedy. No effect noted. I'll have another go soon.

[Psiload]

Originally posted by Homeoskeptic
Well, the dog was cured of the diarrhea so what are you complaining about.

Talk about f**king quack - you must be the biggest f**king idiot out of the whole lot.I'm complaining about a dog suffering for five years at the hands of a pair of deluded quack veterinarians... probably still suffering.

So you agree with this? Perscribing a remedy which is not indicated for a pet, but rather for the pet's owner?

Is this a common homeopathic methodology? Genus epidemicus by proxy perhaps?

How about the anti-vaccination, and no Frontline screed? Are you going to jump on that bandwagon too?

How about the claim of Crohn's disease caused by anger, and repressed memories of childhood molestation?

How much of this nonesense are you willing to defend?

[Rolfe]

Originally posted by Psiload
How much of this nonesense are you willing to defend? Don't forget the healing by ESP while you're at it.

Rolfe.

[Suezoled]

Originally posted by Rolfe
Suez, I should look at this "arnica" more closely. I'll take a medium-sized bet there are no arnica molecules in it. It's purely a homoeopathic preparation.

(snipped)

Rolfe: the arnica sold in a bottle is not labeled as homeopathic. Personally, I don't mess with it. If there is swelling, bruising, etc, I prefer cold water and epsom salts, and possibly a dose of bute/anti inflammotory if needed. Time heals heals bruises and sores, I only try to ease the discomfort a bit.

Then again, I just work with regular horses, not active track horses.

[Rolfe]

Originally posted by Suezoled
Rolfe: the arnica sold in a bottle is not labeled as homeopathic.Have a closer look, will you? It must say something about the active ingredient, what it is, what concentration. I'd take a small bet that rather than say there are so many mg of dried mountain daisy in it, some expression like "6X" or "30C" might appear.

Rolfe.

[Suezoled]

Originally posted by Rolfe
Have a closer look, will you? It must say something about the active ingredient, what it is, what concentration. I'd take a small bet that rather than say there are so many mg of dried mountain daisy in it, some expression like "6X" or "30C" might appear.

Rolfe.

Next time I'm at the store I'll take a look.

[Prester John]

Of course you know about blinding now HS/NH, because we told you about 3 weeks ago, remember ?

As for claims about treating HIV infection, maybe you can show the evidence, we know quite a lot about it and have a number of markers to indicate the progression of the disease, so it should be quite easy to demonstrate to the world the effectiveness of homeopathy.

Of course, homeopathy makes many grand claims, but never too loudly, and they never seem able to actually pull off their claims. If you really did have the ability to cure without side effects, you would be shouting from the rooftops, homeopathy would become the jewel in the crown of medicine. Randis million would be the least of your prizes. But no, by designing scientific trials badly, you deny knowledge of this revolutionary art to the greater scientific world and humanity.

If you feel like answering some questions, i think you will find a thread (The sound of Silence), with some pointed questionws on it...maybe ?

(nah, repsonse will be - i've answered them all before - yeah right).

[Suezoled]

bumpity

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Originally posted by Homeoskeptic
Recently, I had a patient come to see me. She had been in a car accident. She had not received any serious injuries, but had been checked over in the hospital and was later released. She came to me complaining that she felt very blocked off and depressed. I took the case and decided to prescribe a remedy on the causation. The causation in this case was the trauma. As she was so blocked off and stuck and the case was very mental and emotional, I decided to prescribe Arnica 1M. She took this Arnica and the next day awoke covered in bruises and was so stiff that she could hardly move. This all resolved during the course of the week and she then made a full recovery. This was after only one dose of Arnica 1M.

"Doctor" Homeoskeptic.

How, in your clinical experience, have you managed to miss the very simple concept that bruising of deep tissues often takes a few days to emerge at the skin surface?

Then you use this perfectly ordinary phenomenon as support for your standard fallacious argument that anything occurring after a remedy has been given must have occurred solely because of the remedy and for no other conceivable reason, like, say, it was going to happen anyway.

Anyway, I see its been mentioned again, what about the evidence that homeopathy has cured chronic renal failure. Remember? We need biochemistry and also histology to prove that the tissue has reverted to normal please. Still waiting....

Oh, and about that cure for AIDS, you presumably do have some proof of this don't you. You know the drill, viral titres, CD4 counts etc all that good scientific stuff.

[Suezoled]

And Turner's Syndrome. Remember Turner's.

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Originally posted by Suezoled
And Turner's Syndrome. Remember Turner's.

Oh, yes. The cure of genetic disease. Another one for The Sound Of Silence thread.

http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=39140

Are you reading any of this HS/NH? You have been the source or have at least provoked a lot of these unanswerable questions by your own statements and evasions.

[Psiload]

I'd like to point something out from the "homeopathic veterinarian" comment I had quoted from in an earlier post in this thread:

http://www.hptg.org/courses/international/american-appraisal.html

...and who also despite what myself and the other homeopathic vets had told her - NOT to vaccinate or use frontline - and she continued to do so, and where I sense A LOT of suppressed anger.I can't get over this. It's just sickening. Anyone who won't follow her woo woo recommendations must have some sort of mental problem. Anyone who won't buy whole hog into her anti-establishment beliefs is obviously harboring some sort of serious anger issues.

Sound familiar?

This nitwit could be Xantalaf and Natural Heap's sister. Hell, take away her formal training in legitimate medicine, and this pinhead could BE Xantalaf or Homeopsuedoskeptic.

This poor dog has suffered through five years of chronic diarrhea, and this stupid ass gives sugar pills to the dog to treat the owner's mental problems? :con2:

Found her:

http://www.holisticvet.us/

I think a formal invitation may be in order.